The Hobbit

[X-SOLDIER]

@Octo: that's because elves pronounce both vowels rather than combining them. (Thanks tumblr LotR geeks). I thought the same as you for a long while.


Semi-related awesomeness:

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[Octo]

You just have to know that The Hobbit is a simple little fantasy story that he came back to after filling in the surrounding details of a whole world years later, and there're still some minor unexplained elements (i.e. the effects of the One Ring on Bilbo) that I think that the films are handling brilliantly by integrating the original book and the surrounding source material and context within a cinematic storytelling format that ties in to all of the details in its prior presentation of LotR.

If you frame the Hobbit films like that, they're really exceptional, but if you're overly attached to extreme specificities to the book, you'll likely find yourself disappointed.



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Yeah, I'm currently re-reading the Hobbit, and although I'm enjoying it, it's very much a children's story. If the film adaptation had more closely followed the book it would have jarred with LOTR (both book and films) Some guy on G+ was lamenting how it wasn't like the book.

The dwarves are described very much like the ones in snow white (going about in brightly coloured hoods is a surefire way to get your ass kicked/eaten by a warg) and its all a little simplistic eg I skipped ahead and

Spoiler

The death's of Fili and Kili are mentioned as an aside, sort of 'oh and by the way they died too'

The characters, beside Bilbo, Gandalf, Thorin and Gollum, aren't really explored all that much in the book, and the number one rule (for me anyway) if I'm going to sit through a 3 hour film is that I give a shit about the characters, I don't think I'd be able to do that with the characters left as they are in the book (aside from the aforementioned)**

I don't think kids these days wouldn't be satisfied with a simple little fantasy story about some dwarves and a dragon. The adults complaining that the film isn't like the book are like those people who want kids to play with wooden toys or some shit. We've moved on. Tolkien moved on when he wrote LOTR which was much more in depth and fleshed out world.

I don't think they're 100% perfect films, I'm conflicted about some of the additions made eg: Kili gives me funny feelings in my ladygarden but then I'm like 'why did they have to make a character/s sexy? Can't we just enjoy the story without wanting to hump any of the protagonists?' And although Tauriel is cool I don't think the inclusion of an invented female character for fanboys to fap over strikes a blow for equality. So I feel like Hollywood has got it's claws into it a bit.

Still, I likes it. I can't wait until all three films are out on extended edition dvd and then I'm going to watch both trilogy's back to back and end up in the newspapers when I'm found lying in a pool of my own vomit from sleep deprivation.

In any case, they shit all over Star Wars eps 1-3. I have no sense of dissapointment and betrayal.

**And yeah, a fair few of the dwarves haven't really been developed all that much in the films so far, but I think it would be nigh on impossible to do that with all of them.

 

[Clement Rage]

And although Tauriel is cool I don't think the inclusion of an invented female character for fanboys to fap over strikes a blow for equality

I'm pretty sure she was there for the fangirls, actually, to give them someone to identify with.

Spoiler

Unfortunately, they mishandled her in the love triangle/magic super awesome chick whose a better healer than Aragorn and a better fighter than everyone else. Tauriel and Legolas do more damage to the orcs than the rest of the cast combined,

[/CODE]

On the film as a whole, it was pretty decent, although I'd rather the creators were a little less in love with the elves. Dwarves should be more than comic relief in the story focused on them.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'm pretty sure she was there for the fangirls, actually, to give them someone to identify with.

Spoiler

Unfortunately, they mishandled her in the love triangle/magic super awesome chick whose a better healer than Aragorn and a better fighter than everyone else. Tauriel and Legolas do more damage to the orcs than the rest of the cast combined,

[/CODE]

On the film as a whole, it was pretty decent, although I'd rather the creators were a little less in love with the elves. Dwarves should be more than comic relief in the story focused on them.

I think that there're a couple other reasons for having her there that are all for the purpose of serving the larger story. One, it sets to establish more of who the Sylvan elves are in order to provide contrast with the other High Elves that we see in LotR. It makes it clear why they wouldn't have a presence in the big picture later on, as well as provide Legolas context for HIS presence at the council of Elrond - despite his lineage. This also works to showcase more that the Sylvan Elves are, "less wise and more dangerous" which shows why the other high elves aren't all supreme leaping about badasses in combat when we see them later on in LotR. (Not to mention, she's the Woodland Kingdom's Captain of the Guard and Legolas is a prince and "previously" established from LotR, plus - the band of dwarves' primary jobs aren't just combat even though they do fight).

It also gives more tension to Legolas & Gimli's interaction and competitiveness being more serious, and building into friendship carrying more weight given both of their pasts, because it sets Legolas' initial attitude of the dwarves farther away than her's. Additionally, it sets the precedent of Thranduil not wanting Legolas to pledge himself to a lowly Sylvan Elf, which provides a little bit more thematic tension for Arwen & Aragorn having an even MORE complex relationship (albeit with a more understanding father figure).

I'll agree that they DO spread her a little thin, but I think that they're going to establish a few more things in wrapping up her character, since I'm... 98% sure that

Spoiler

she's gonna get killed during the Battle of the Five Armies in the next film along with Thorin, Fili, & Kili (and Radagast at the siege of Dol Guldur) because that sets the tone of the bigger picture, and explains the lack of their (her & Radagast's) presence in the LotR, as well as raise the stakes for all parties involved, and sets the tone for where things are in Fellowship.

Also, as far as Dwarves being badasses, we've still got Dain & his whole clan showing up to establish what it looks like when the Dwarves come into power, so I wouldn't worry about that so much. The final film is where we see what the dwarves are like when they're properly in their own, rather than a funny little ragtag band of misfits.


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[Octo]

Yeah I guess Tauriel is more mary-sue self insertion uh... facilitator. Not that I'm complaining if it means more Kili screen time

Oh I meant to ask, is the Alan Lee illustrated edition of the book worth getting? Anyone got it? I've got his version of LOTR and the illios are just hnnnnnng.

 

[Roger]

Tauriel's fine, her subplot served to seperate the dwarves and flesh them out. Legolas is more worrisome, really don't think showcasing how fast he can kill Orcs is adding much to the story on this point and I hope the Battle of the Five Armies does not dwell on him too much.

 

[Tetsujin]

Legolas is OP, nerf plz

 

[Clement Rage]

I'll agree that they DO spread her a little thin, but I think that they're going to establish a few more things in wrapping up her character, since I'm... 98% sure that

Spoiler

she's gonna get killed during the Battle of the Five Armies in the next film along with Thorin, Fili, & Kili (and Radagast at the siege of Dol Guldur) because that sets the tone of the bigger picture, and explains the lack of their (her & Radagast's) presence in the LotR, as well as raise the stakes for all parties involved, and sets the tone for where things are in Fellowship.

Also, as far as Dwarves being badasses, we've still got Dain & his whole clan showing up to establish what it looks like when the Dwarves come into power, so I wouldn't worry about that so much. The final film is where we see what the dwarves are like when they're properly in their own, rather than a funny little ragtag band of misfits.


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So, at the end of the third movie about the dwarven quest to retake erebor, we get a chance to see the dwarves being good at something? Almost every chance to shine they've had so far has either been undercut by elves or played for laughs.

Spoiler

The Misty mountains chase and the barrel ride were slapsticky, Thorin's confrontation at the end of movie one ends with him effortlessly being shaken like a rag doll, they were rescued from the spiders, the movie goes out of the way to show Thranduil being more reasonable than Thorin. Even Ori's chance to show he's a good medic is taken away from him. I know they weren't great in the book, but if you expand the elven competence it shouldn't be too difficult to throw the dwarves a bone. Bilbo knows more about dwarf secret doors than they do!

The best we've got is the molten gold bit, which was nice but the chase beforehand was also played for laughs. Hey Smaug, look behind you.

There's no need to kill Tauriel to prevent her from existing in LOTR, she's just not important enough to send to a delegation in Rivendell, she could easily be busy in mirkwood, being Captain of the Guard and all that.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The Dwarves aren't helped in that Tolkien ultimately casted them as a sideshow to the really long history of the Elves and Men vs. Morgoth/Sauron. Heck, in Silmarilion it's revealed that there was originally only supposed to be Elves and Men and the creation of Dwarves was almost an accident. Tolkien wrote way more about Elves and Men then he did about the Dwarves, so there's less source material for Jackson to work with.

Now I really want to read Silmarilion...

 

[Tennyo]

I saw the new one. I thought it was better than the last. I really enjoyed it quite a bit, and I do like how the movies are

Spoiler

showing us the One Ring having an affect on Bilbo.

I'm a bit bothered by Tauriel, however. I'm totally fine with Jackson inserting characters into the movies that were never in the book (or any of the books, for that matter) so long as it helps move the story along. However,

Spoiler

if his only reason for inserting a previously non-existent female is to give her a cheeseball love story that isn't believable in the slightest

then I may have to smack him.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I saw the new one. I thought it was better than the last. I really enjoyed it quite a bit, and I do like how the movies are

Spoiler

showing us the One Ring having an affect on Bilbo.

I'm a bit bothered by Tauriel, however. I'm totally fine with Jackson inserting characters into the movies that were never in the book (or any of the books, for that matter) so long as it helps move the story along. However,

Spoiler

if his only reason for inserting a previously non-existent female is to give her a cheeseball love story that isn't believable in the slightest

then I may have to smack him.

Agreed with you - especially about Bilbo, but despite the

Spoiler

cheesy little elf/dwarf shipping going on with Tauriel - which I suspect is just there to make the audience more sympathetic for the both of them when they die, and/or give them a reason to split up and pair off during the battle of the five armies to keep everyone in smaller groups and still give us a reason to follow the elves along with our original main characters - that isn't all there is to her character. If you wanna dig through some of my previous posts, I've gotten into all the other good things about her thus far in fair detail.

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[Tennyo]

How far back are we talking, here?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Like… my posts on Page 39 mostly?



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[Octo]

So um...

Spoiler

Thorins wheelbarrow.

What the fuck is it made out of?

Melting temp of Gold = 1063 degrees celsius

Wrought Iron = 1593

Steel, carbon (whatever that means) = 1540

Tantalum = 2980

Thorium = 1750
^This sounds deliciously apt but it turns out its radioactive :/

There are loads of others here.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html

I don't know physics but he should have been getting quite badly burned even if the wheelbarrow was magic. I guess that shows how badass he is.

Also, IIRC, I'm re reading the book but havent got to Smaug yet, the Alien 3 molten gold thing isn't in the book is it? They should have known it wouldn't work. Smaug breathes fire for fucks sake, it probably just felt to him like a slightly too hot bath.

Also I was going back through the thread and the early PR pics show Thorin as much more dwarvy that he is in the film. Like they went to town on the photoshop/prosthetics. Now he's just Richard Armitage with a slightly longer nose

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'm thinking that Thorin and Co. don't burn up for the same reason Frodo, Sam and Golem don't while they're in Mt. Doom (not burning up in the heart of a volcano... seriously). Or you could go the route that mithril is involved somehow (mithril/iron alloy anyone?). There's also the case that the dwarves have been using all this smelting equipment for years before Smaug shows up, so they've been in "we should be dead from the temperature" conditions for who knows how long prior to this.

 

[Octo]

^This is a good point, and I'd completely forgotten about Frodo and Sam on mt doom. If they can survive those conditions coming from the leafy shire then its reasonable to assume that Dwarves would have built up some sort of defence after 1000's of years.

Dwarves are awesome

 

[Tetsujin]

Convection schmonvection, it's only hot if you touch it etc

 

[Octo]

A WIZARD DID IT!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That is literally the explanation for everything in Middle-earth.

 

[Tetsujin]

 

[Clement Rage]

I believe dwarves are canonically resistant to heat, if I remember correctly.

 

[Octo]

Spoiler: My thoughts on the extended edition of Unexpected Journey - WARNING SPOILERS and fangirling

Ok so first off, there isn't a huge amount of extra footage, only about 13-15 minutes IIRC.

Anyway, off the top of my head and in rough chronological order:

1) Small extra scene trying to explain why the Elves and Dwarves hate each other so much.

2) Flashback scene of Bilbo's childhood at a party with Gandalf

3) Extra scene of Bilbo trying to avoid running into Gandalf, buying his supper.

4) Dwarven debauchery at Rivendell! Worth the extra money by itself IMO

Spoiler

Kili winking at an Elf maid, gets caught by Dwalin, then goes on to say he doesn't like Elfmaids because of lack of facial hair. Then he mistakes an elf for an elf maid and gets laughed at. Nori steals some Elven silverware. Bofur leads the group in a rendition of The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late. Which then erupts into a food fight. Kili flings some mashed potato (?) narrowly missing FIGWIT (Brett from Flight of Conchords) and hitting a statue on the boob.

5) FIGWIT (oK his real name is Lindir) complaining to Elrond about the Dwarves drinking all the wine and eating all the food. They round the corner to see the Dwarves bathing in the Fountain and acting like it's spring break (or club 18-130 - see what I did thar?) This is all cgi and from a distance anyway so don't get too excited.

6)The Goblin king/chief does a longer rendition of Down in Goblin Town. He's not a patch on David Bowie though The dwarves stall for time, with much jabbering from Oin and Bofur before Thorin steps in.

There is probably other stuff here and there that I have forgotten about. Anyway, if you hated the cinema version nothing added here is really going to change that, but if you're like me it's definitely worth getting.

Oh and I'm making my way slooowly through all the 'making of' stuff, I thought it would be the same as all the production diaries on youtube but that is just the tip of the iceberg. It's kind of astounding the sheer amount of work that goes into these films. Well worth a watch.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I finally saw "The Desolation of Smaug" yesterday (IMAX 3D, bitches).

Spoiler

They took a lot more liberties here than with the first, but it only added to the story, and was arguably necessary. They still only added material rather than leaving out, which is a strength in itself, and one I can't help but imagine will one day lead to these films being reviewed more favorably than the LotR trilogy, necessity or no.

Anyway, while I felt the political stuff in Laketown dragged a bit, it was necessary and well executed. It made Bard relevant sooner than he was in the book and established a conflict between he and Thorin before the Battle of Five Armies, which was a good touch.

I actually really liked Tauriel, despite misgivings I had based on other reviews. I don't think she made the Dwarves look stupid by being able to help Kili. They already knew to use kingsfoil, after all. And of course she could make better use of it -- she's an Elf!

I quite like the attraction between she and Kili as well. I know I can't be the only one who always wanted to see a pairing like this in the source material.

I know some people have complained that the Elves looked too badass and dwarfed the Dwarves (ha ), but I completely disagree. That whole fight on the river in the barrels and taking on Smaug is as badass as anyone in the film series has been. Even without weapons, they were still kicking ass, taking names, taking their enemy's weapons and fucking shit up.

Obviously, they didn't kill Smaug, but I'm so glad to just see them try. That's one thing that has always disappointed me about the book -- the Dwarves didn't fight him! God, I remember wanting that so bad when I first read the book. This was a fanboy's wet dream.

Now, naturally, it didn't work, but they still genuinely pissed him right off and would have killed him had the molten gold been hot enough. The plan worked in every way except actually killing him, so, yeah -- the Dwarves be badass.

By the way, I think that having them "run Smaug off" -- even though he would have obviously been back to kill them all -- will add some legitimacy to Thorin's claim to the treasure when everyone else shows up wanting a piece of the pie. Obviously, he's still going to be a douche, but it will make him look less so.

Speaking of fights, I got my wish to see Gandalf vs. Sauron. How fucking awesome was that? Can't wait to see what they do when the White Council takes him on in the next film.

Truthfully, I don't know how they're going to top the fights from this movie without making some of the fights in the LotR trilogy look less awesome despite the grander scale. Oh well.

In closing, did anybody else love Gloin showing Legolas a picture of Gimli?

 

[Octo]

XD

Yeah

Spoiler

Legolas says (of the picture) "what is this? A hideous mutant?" Or something like that and Gloin says "that's ma wee lad, Gimli" and all the fangirls and boys did squeee!

 

[Cthulhu]

Oh hai thrad, I can finally read you and your spoiler tags again, . Watched it last friday, FGJ. I'm a bit so-so about it; sure, it's an awesome movie and all, but not as awesome as LotR was for a number of reasons. I'm probably whining here, but fuck you . Note that I watched the regular 2D non-hi-fps version.

* The CGI wasn't that awesome. They had environmental scenes with CGI orcs running around... looked like a video game. The molten metal in the latter part of the movie looked like complete shite. Smaug was done very nicely though, <3

* I liked Gandalf's bits well enough, but tbh I think I'll want to watch an abbreviated version without the added bits once the triology, because...

*

Spoiler

Open ending. It looked like they were gonna defeat the dragon, but... nowp, bwahaha I yet live puny dwarves I'm gonna kill them all! Which would give room for Bard to pwn him with the crossbow, but... credits rolled, with completely inappropriate music to boot. You don't do that in a movie, I mean what the actual fuck. Give at least some closure, like the fellowship versus the Uruk-Hai and it getting split up and a bittersweet ending but preparing for great adventure, or pwning Saruman's army but with the knowledge there is an even bigger challenge up ahead, or the giant ending the third LotR movie had. This is just a cliffhanger. Like I said above, I'd rather watch a version where they edited the extra additions out of and compacted it into a 3-4 hour movie that follows just the original book like it was originally intended.

* Tauriel.

Spoiler

Now, I don't think I'm sexist and whatnot and I don't mind them conjuring up a female character to avoid having the feminists taking off their shirts in protest, but did you have to stuff all of the important female character tropes into one character? 'Cause, you know, they kinda clash. Let's list a few:

* Love triangle centerpoint
* Falls in lurve or whatever with one of the main characters. Coincidentally, the tallest and handsomest of the dwarves (depending on taste).
* Fighting badass military commander
* ...that gets told to get back to the kitchen by Legolas
* Obligatory angelic healer type, with off course a forced repetition of LotR scenes / themes / music. But iirc that was in the book too, just the other way around. But the movie probably overdoes it.

* The music gets kinda... tedious? IDK, I don't mind theme music, but it's getting on my nerves after five movies.

* WTF is up with Legolas? Besides the actor being ten years older (which the makeup compensated adequately for), his eyes are fucking creepy and he looks like an undead reincarnation or some shit.

Good bits:

*

Spoiler

MOTHERFUCKING DWARF BARREL TANK, BITCHES