The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Danseru-kun]

^

I'm just gonna verbatim her follow-up message:

Another question, does the word always imply a two-way romantic relationship or is it also used to denote person who is loved? If "lover" or a two-way relationship is to be referred, is Geliebter still the best translation or is there another word? :>

Geliebter is the best word for that I guess. It’s used to denote the person as well. There are a few other words but to be honest I never head someone actually saying them. Maybe because they are old fashioned. As long as it doesn’t refers to siblings, family in general or friends, then it’s the best word to use. (Liebhaber is a posibillity too, but people are just using it for -just-sexual partners)
(Well, if you are in a relationship you can also say ‘Partner’ but I guess thats obvious anyway. )

I just have to say a native speaker would have a different meaning than the dictionary. For example, online Filipino dictionaries translate "sinta" and "nobya" as fiancee which is NEVER USED LIKE THAT IN MY WHOLE LIFE. It's known as "beloved" to everyone.

 

[Dashell]

^

I'm just gonna verbatim her follow-up message:





I just have to say a native speaker would have a different meaning than the dictionary. For example, online Filipino dictionaries translate "sinta" and "nobya" as fiancee which is NEVER USED LIKE THAT IN MY WHOLE LIFE. It's known as "beloved" to everyone.

In b4 people run around to 500 different German forums to find someone who tells them what they want to hear.

 

[Lord Kesharq]

when is the spanish translation lol? at least then i could read that unlike all this french, german and jap lol.....(or the dreamed of english one which looks like it will never happen as it would auto kill the LTD lol)

 

[Shadowfox]

I recently had a friend who was seeing a guy -- they went on dates, hung out all the time, and all of this happened very fast. At that point, they hadn't officially had the "boyfriend/girlfriend" conversation, but everyone viewed them as lovers. They acted like lovers, and their feelings for each other were obvious.

There's always that weird stage: are we or aren't we? IMO, Cloud and Aerith were at that weird stage.

She had been attracted to the part of him that reminded her of her ex-boyfriend, but was only just beginning to work her way out of that, and was risking herself to save the planet before she was murdered in front of him. He was completely confused about who he was, subconsciously imitating many aspects of her ex-boyfriend, obsessed with chasing after a fallen General who burninated his home town. And he was at the same time also in an 'are they, aren't they' complication of attraction with his childhood friend.

'Weird' seems like a very mild way of putting it.

Anyway, I have seen and heard two people dating being referred to as lovers, but that always brings with it the sense that those two had already come to some understanding about their relationship and feelings, and were dating each other exclusively. As you said, BB, they'd have gone out on dates (and not just a couple of dates, but many), hung out together, and acted as lovers. To me, that does not describe how Cloud and Aerith were in the game.

 

[Splintered]

when is the spanish translation lol? at least then i could read that unlike all this french, german and jap lol.....(or the dreamed of english one which looks like it will never happen as it would auto kill the LTD lol)

Speaking of Spanish translations, I remember that debate of what Tifa's line meant. The Japanese fansubbers translated it to "Did we lose to our memories" and the English official translation did, "A memory or us."

I remember there being a huge stink about it, and a lot of people trying to interrupt it different ways and Tifa's character being generally dragged through the mud.

I saw someone post the official (at least I think it was the official) Spanish translation and it went something like "Have we become victims of our memories" and I thought it conveyed the original intent better than the other lines I saw.

I don't know where I was going with this. Wasn't the Spanish version of FFVII crazy in the original game? Good times.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it was pretty awful from what Alex Strife and others have posted. It does sound like that line from Tifa was handled really well in Spanish, though. "Did we lose to our memories?" is better, but I like that too.

 

[Wolfhart]

Speaking of Spanish translations, I remember that debate of what Tifa's line meant. The Japanese fansubbers translated it to "Did we lose to our memories" and the English official translation did, "A memory or us."

I remember there being a huge stink about it, and a lot of people trying to interrupt it different ways and Tifa's character being generally dragged through the mud.

I saw someone post the official (at least I think it was the official) Spanish translation and it went something like "Have we become victims of our memories" and I thought it conveyed the original intent better than the other lines I saw.

I don't know where I was going with this. Wasn't the Spanish version of FFVII crazy in the original game? Good times.

Yes, she says "Tell me, are we victims of a memory?"

And now that I'm playing FFVII again I'm having a good laugh because of the translation they change the gender of the characters all the time... There's also a moment when Sephiroth speaks to himself because they didn't change the name of the character speaking (I believe it was supposed to be Tifa's father, when they're about to go to Mount Nibel's reactor) but I'm not sure if that happens in the English version too... Not to mention the confusion with the word "party" (as I commented previously in another topic)

 

[BlankBeat]

EDIT:

I just want to say, I find it really silly to expect Nojima to translate things because 1) He doesn't read and write every single language on Earth 2) He hasn't worked for SE since 2003

What I hear some people alluding to is that no translation is valid (either from this site or the official translations) because Nojima (a man, from as far as I know, isn't fluent in all languages) isn't directly involved with the translations? Does that mean anything SE has done since 2003 without Nojima isn't valid? Why even have a debate if that is the standard set?

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She had been attracted to the part of him that reminded her of her ex-boyfriend, but was only just beginning to work her way out of that, and was risking herself to save the planet before she was murdered in front of him.

Two quotes to keep in mind:

1) "At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.” ~Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga, FFVII Dismantled

2) “Although in the beginning Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.” ~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix

He was completely confused about who he was, subconsciously imitating many aspects of her ex-boyfriend, obsessed with chasing after a fallen General who burninated his home town.

Another quote to keep in mind:

“After developing his personality by using Zack’s memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud’s coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality.” ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

So although Cloud wasn’t completely himself during disc 1, parts of the ‘real’ Cloud were present during his time with Aerith. It is also stated that the Jenova cells inside Cloud mimicked Tifa’s memories of him. Since Tifa’s memories were of the ‘real’ Cloud, Jenova’s cells mimicked portions of the ‘real Cloud’ that fashioned yet another personality for him.

As you said, BB, they'd have gone out on dates (and not just a couple of dates, but many)

Remember, this is video game world. Cloud and Aerith are shown going on two dates. IMO, that's plenty to establish them as 'lovers' in video game world.

hung out together, and acted as lovers.

1) Cloud and Aerith did hang out a lot together. From the moment Cloud falls down to Aerith's Church, Cloud fends off the Turks for the price of a romantic date, Cloud goes to Aerith's house and is triggered into a flashback about his Mother mentioning finding an 'older' girlfriend, Cloud shares a date in the park with Aerith where the topic of romantic relationship gets brought up, and Aerith convinces Cloud to cross-dress. IMO, the entire cross-dressing portion of the game was very comical and flirtatious ("You look so cute, Mrs. Cloud). Oh, and shortly after all of this Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

In video game world, all of that is a considerable amount of one-on-one time between a man and a woman.

Then, after all of that (and more), Cloud and Aerith share a very long and significant date at Gold Saucer. According to the FTOIL page, both Cloud and Aerith develop love for each other during the course of the Gold Saucer date. That's A LOT of one-on-one time in video game world, IMO.

2) Barret observes that Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for besides himself. Why? Because Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a woman he just met. Sounds like something a "lover" would do for another "lover". Granted, Barret and Tifa agree to rescue Aerith, too. But it was Cloud who initiated the rescue. IMO, given Cloud's willingness to rescue Aerith so soon after meeting her (and given what we know about Cloud's initial attraction to Aerith), I think SE was going for "love at first sight" (something that is common in TV, films, literature, etc.)

Also -- Cosmo Canyon is a very subtle but significant moment regarding Cloud and Aerith's romance:

Having a character accidentally express feelings for another, and then backtrack from their slip-up, is a common literary device to show romantic attraction from one character to another. This piece of dialogue is a subtle (yet obvious) way to show Cloud is falling in love with Aerith.

Why else is this there if not to show Cloud is falling in love with the Flower Girl? As I mentioned above, Cloud’s line is a common literary device to show one character is romantically interested in another.

Let us also remember that Cloud’s romantic slip-up in Cosmo Canyon occurs after these key events:

1. Cloud thinks Aerith’s eyes are "impressive" 2. Cloud thinks Aerith’s smile is a "good purchase" 3. Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a ”mysterious feeling” 4. Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date 5. Cloud has a flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith’s house 6. Cloud and Aerith share an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story 7. Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him 8. Barret observes that Aerith is the first person Cloud cares for besides himself 9. Tifa gets jealous when she hears Cloud and Aerith flirting and developing their "own world" and "special bond" in the Shinra jail cell
​

Given all that occurred prior to Cosmo Canyon, especially Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, makes it undeniable that Cloud’s slip-up is romantic. Not only is Cloud’s slip-up a common literary device to show one characters attraction to another, but the context is undeniably romantic.

Cloud also says, "I remember Aerith a lot" while visiting Cosmo Canyon during disc 2. This line occurs after Cloud shares a promised date with Aerith in Golden Saucer, a wedding prediction by Cait Sith, and Aerith’s sudden death by the hands of Sephiroth. It’s clear Cloud and Aerith truly did develop a "special bond" in a short amount of time. All of this is exactly why Square Enix says:

“Cloud was her [Aerith] friend, her LOVER - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix
​

 

[Shadowfox]

Two quotes to keep in mind:

I don't see a contradiction between those two quotes and what I'd written, though.

Another quote to keep in mind:

I still don't see a contradiction.

So although Cloud wasn’t completely himself during disc 1, parts of the ‘real’ Cloud were present during his time with Aerith. It is also stated that the Jenova cells inside Cloud mimicked Tifa’s memories of him. Since Tifa’s memories were of the ‘real’ Cloud, Jenova’s cells mimicked portions of the ‘real Cloud’ that fashioned yet another personality for him.

From my read of this, the Jenova cells combined what Tifa had remembered of Cloud with what Cloud had wanted to be (ie., like Zack), and produced the Disc 1 Cloud we control. And even though there were parts of the real Cloud mixed in with Zack-wannabe Cloud in Disc 1 Cloud, the final package is still a guy who is not the real Cloud.

Remember, this is video game world. Cloud and Aerith are shown going on two dates. IMO, that's plenty to establish them as 'lovers' in video game world.

I disagree, because even in a Video game world, they still have to establish the characters and the relationship. It's still a story and should be fleshed out to make sense.

However, if you are determined to say that two dates are enough, then I'd be interested in seeing a consistent application of this standard when looking at his other relationships. For example, Aerith's two dates with Cloud culminate in her admitting to not having met him yet, and him being perplexed and none the wiser to her feelings for him. So what about that one date he had with Yuffie where she kissed him? Or his night with Tifa beneath the Highwind where they shared mutual feelings for one another without words? Or that undetermined amount of time he spent in a hot tub with Mukki?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just want to say, I find it really silly to expect Nojima to translate things because 1) He doesn't read and write every single language on Earth ...

Dude, I really hope it's yourself you're addressing in this, because no one here needs you to tell them. We (i.e. hito, Quexinos, Ryu, myself, probably others) have been trying to get that point across to you for a couple of years every time you act like an official English translation couldn't possibly fall short of conveying authorial intent, even while -- seemingly ignorant of the painful irony -- you tout a fan translation of that "engraved in Cloud's heart" quote around in your signature, ignoring the official translation (which was actually correct).

We know Nojima doesn't know every language on Earth. I'm glad to finally see you say it, because despite every time we have pointed out that, at last word from the man himself, Nojima doesn't know English or that Kitase has, by his own admission, little knowledge of the localization process, you just repeat "But the official translation says ..." -- as though that's supposed to provide us infallible insight into the intent of the developers who could look at those same words and have no idea what they say.

Are you really that unaware of the point has been made to you all this time that you actually think you are the first to say it and that we are the ones who need to hear it?

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

I'm tired, and it's near three in the morning and I should be in bed, but I just wanted to say ...

Really?

Relationships have been established as canon on less, Celes/Locke, Zidane/Garnet come to mind, etc, I actually remember someone (I think Matt?) saying we hear a lot from Zidane about fancying Garnet etc in FFIX, but not so much from Garnet.

Another thing was the whole Ultimania/Bentstuff thing ... when there were some demands for Nojima/Nomura/Kitase/etc to have worked on it or w/e there/it not being acceptable unless they had, etc, stuff in the Ultimania not being valid because it didn't come straight from the mouth of those guys, staff at Studio Bentstuff being unreliable, etc

 

[Dashell]

I just want to say, I find it really silly to expect Nojima to translate things because 1) He doesn't read and write every single language on Earth 2) He hasn't worked for SE since 2003

But that's our point. We shouldn't be saying, "Well this translation clarified what Nojima was trying to say." or, for that matter arguing an official translation is FOR SURE what the Japanese meant when he himself wasn't involved in the translation.

Relationships have been established as canon on less, Celes/Locke, Zidane/Garnet come to mind, etc, I actually remember someone (I think Matt?) saying we hear a lot from Zidane about fancying Garnet etc in FFIX, but not so much from Garnet.

THIS! I know we've complained before about Cloud and Tifa being held to a higher standard than most couples, well I feel like some are doing that with Cloud and Aerith now.

Another thing was the whole Ultimania/Bentstuff thing ... when there were some demands for Nojima/Nomura/Kitase/etc to have worked on it or w/e there/it not being acceptable unless they had, etc, stuff in the Ultimania not being valid because it didn't come straight from the mouth of those guys, staff at Studio Bentstuff being unreliable, etc

Also this though I'm not sure if Blankbeat was involved in that or not.

 

[BlankBeat]

Really?

Relationships have been established as canon on less, Celes/Locke, Zidane/Garnet come to mind, etc, I actually remember someone (I think Matt?) saying we hear a lot from Zidane about fancying Garnet etc in FFIX, but not so much from Garnet.

And unlike Celes x Locke, and Zidane x Garnet, Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all of their romantic moments in *ONE* disc. Just think if they had been given more time together how many more romantic moments they'd have!

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I don't see a contradiction between those two quotes and what I'd written, though.

I still don't see a contradiction.

All I'm saying is that it's pretty much irrelevant that Cloud wasn't his complete self during disc 1, and it's also irrelevant that Aerith was initially attracted to Cloud because of Zack. According to SE, Cloud and Aerith were able to develop a "special bond" **DESPITE** all of that. This special bond carries on between Cloud and Aerith *AFTER* Cloud regains all of his memories, and *AFTER* Aerith starts liking Cloud for who he is and not for who he reminds her of.

For instance, Cloud admits (after regaining all of his memories) to thinking about Aerith a lot. Then, in Advent Children, we continue to see Cloud and Aerith emotionally connected to one another. This special bond didn't stop at the end of disc 1, it continued long after Cloud regained his memories, and long after Aerith started liking Cloud for who he is and not for who he reminded her of.

And even though there were parts of the real Cloud mixed in with Zack-wannabe Cloud in Disc 1 Cloud, the final package is still a guy who is not the real Cloud.

But the real Cloud admits to thinking about Aerith a lot.

What is the real Cloud thinking about when he admits to thinking about Aerith? His interactions with her during disc 1 (ie: when Cloud isn't his complete self). Obviously not being his complete self during disc 1 didn't diminish the importance of his and Aerith's interactions because he admits to thinking about their disc 1 interactions *AFTER* he regains all of his memories.

Furthermore, the real Cloud continues to be emotionally connected to Aerith in both CoT and AC.

I disagree, because even in a Video game world, they still have to establish the characters and the relationship. It's still a story and should be fleshed out to make sense.

Considering the circumstances of the game (they are on a journey to stop Sephiroth and Shinra), and the amount of romantic moments accumulated between Cloud and Aerith in such a short amount of time (disc 1), it's very sufficient, IMO.

Hell, a lot of other FF couples don't even share as many romantic moments as Cloud and Aerith do, yet Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all their moments in one disc.

From the very moment Cloud falls to Aerith Church, they spend a ton of one-on-one time together -- defeating the Turks, going to Aerith's house, sharing a date, and cross dressing to save Tifa. This set of events was meant to develop the romance between Cloud and Aerith. These events are also what led Cloud to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Then, their "world" continues to develop in the Shinra jail cell in-front of Tifa, they share a romantic moment in Cosmo Canyon by the fire, and a date at Gold Saucer takes place. Then, SE includes a marriage prediction, hinting to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith will probably get married. All of this was meant to create a mutual love between Cloud and Aerith so that when Sephiroth killed Aerith, it was that much more heartbreaking and shocking. Cloud's love interest would be the last person we'd expect to be killed off, and it wasn't just a friend who was killed, it was Cloud's potential wife.

However, if you are determined to say that two dates are enough, then I'd be interested in seeing a consistent application of this standard when looking at his other relationships. For example, Aerith's two dates with Cloud culminate in her admitting to not having met him yet, and him being perplexed and none the wiser to her feelings for him.

It wasn't just the two dates, though. It was all the one-on-one time they spent together after Cloud fell through Aerith's Church. It was the moment in Cosmo Canyon. It was the flirting in the Shinra jail cell. It was Aerith telling Cloud she wants him to take her on the Highwind. It was a lot of little moments that added up very quickly. And remember, they accumulated all of these moments in *ONE* disc.

So what about that one date he had with Yuffie where she kissed him?

The love triangle, according to SE, is between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa. Yuffie is irrelevant. Besides, the Clerith date is canon, not the date with Yuffie.

Or his night with Tifa beneath the Highwind where they shared mutual feelings for one another without words?

Cloud *wavers* between two heroines.

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But that's our point. We shouldn't be saying, "Well this translation clarified what Nojima was trying to say." or, for that matter arguing an official translation is FOR SURE what the Japanese meant when he himself wasn't involved in the translation.

This argument can always be made, though. So should we just stop debating because this can always be brought up?

IMO, we should be using the best information we have available and then come to an educated conclusion. The official French translation says "lover," and as of now, that is the best information we have available. SE hired this company to do this translation, therefore officially endorsing it. Besides, we have no idea what sort of behind-the-scenes proof reading takes place. It's very possible that SE has numerous employees that read and write both Japanese and French.

To be honest, it's pointless to bring up Nojima not directly translating this line because he doesn't speak every language on Earth. We will never know if Nojima agrees or disagrees with the translation. So, uh, doesn't this Nojima argument just end the debate?

All I'm saying is that we should use the best information we have available. An official French translation is as good as we have right now, and considering Nojima doesn't even work for SE at this point, we'll probably never know if he agrees or disagrees with the translation. So if you're going to let Nojima be your standard of acceptable, there's really no use in partaking in this debate. It's an unanswerable argument that seems to be used to discredit an official translation that some don't like (not saying you in particular).

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Dude, I really hope it's yourself you're addressing in this, because no one here needs you to tell them. We (i.e. hito, Quexinos, Ryu, myself, probably others) have been trying to get that point across to you for a couple of years every time you act like an official English translation couldn't possibly fall short of conveying authorial intent

The argument that a translation can fall short of conveying authorial intent is an argument that can be made about any official translation, and seems to be the go-to argument when someone disagrees with an official translation.

My point is that official translations, considering Square Enix trusts and hires these people to do them, are one of the best tools we can use in determining authorial intent. The French translation of CoT: White helps clarify that Cloud is Aerith's "lover"; *NOT* "beloved".

Honestly, there's no way to prove if the official translations do or don't fall short of authorial intent (unless we directly ask Nojima about every single official translation). So what's the point in pointing out something we can never find out?

It seems to me that when someone doesn't like what the official translation is saying, they say, "NOJIMA DIDN'T DO THE OFFICIAL TRANSLATION AND HE MIGHT DISAGREE WITH IT" to try and discredit what is being said. And although it is true, he might disagree with it, it's impossible to find out. So why point out something that is both obvious and impossible to find out?

, even while -- seemingly ignorant of the painful irony -- you tout a fan translation of that "engraved in Cloud's heart" quote around in your signature, ignoring the official translation (which was actually correct).

I've had that signature forever and haven't edited it. But since my signature has been consistently brought up, I should probably edit it for my own sake.

"But the official translation says ..." -- as though that's supposed to provide us infallible insight into the intent of the developers who could look at those same words and have no idea what they say.

How do we know a French and Japanese speaking man or woman working for SE didn't proof read the translations? We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

Anyway --

Official translations aren't "infallible insight," but it's some of the best information we have at our disposal. Therefore, we should use the best information we have available to come to a conclusion.

Obviously, sitting down one-on-one with Nojima would be the best information possible. But that's never going to happen. So, official translations are one of the best tools we have to come to any conclusions.

It's like you're obsessed with pointing out something that can neither be proven or disproven. Honestly...why bring it up? We all know that Nojima may disagree with the official translations. But we'll never know for sure. So what's the relevance in bringing up something that is both obvious and impossible to find out?

It just looks as if some people (not saying you specifically) are trying to tarnish the credibility of official information they don't like by pointing out something that can neither be proven or disproven.

Are you really that unaware of the point has been made to you all this time that you actually think you are the first to say it and that we are the ones who need to hear it?

I just find it kind of curious that an unknown and obvious point (Nojima didn't do the translation and could disagree with them) is being brought up when an official translation gives evidence in favor of Cloud x Aerith.

We'll never know if Nojima agrees or disagrees with the translation. However, based on the best information we have available, Cloud is Aerith's lover according to the official French translation. Period.

 

[Dashell]

This argument can always be made, though. So should we just stop debating because this can always be brought up?

IMO, we should be using the best information we have available and then come to an educated conclusion. The official French translation says "lover," and as of now, that is the best information we have available. SE hired this company to do this translation, therefore officially endorsing it. Besides, we have no idea what sort of behind-the-scenes proof reading takes place. It's very possible that SE has numerous employees that read and write both Japanese and French.

To be honest, it's pointless to bring up Nojima not directly translating this line because he doesn't speak every language on Earth. We will never know if Nojima agrees or disagrees with the translation. So, uh, doesn't this Nojima argument just end the debate?

All I'm saying is that we should use the best information we have available. An official French translation is as good as we have right now, and considering Nojima doesn't even work for SE at this point, we'll probably never know if he agrees or disagrees with the translation. So if you're going to let Nojima be your standard of acceptable, there's really no use in partaking in this debate. It's an unanswerable argument that seems to be used to discredit an official translation that some don't like (not saying you in particular).

If you want to look at other translations, that's fine, but apply an even standard. It's these people who literally said the German version doesn't count and are now embracing the French translation that bother me. Or these other people who said the Ultimanias shouldn't be used because it didn't come directly from Nojima and are using this French version when he doesn't speak a lick of French.

To me it seems a bit silly to use a French translation as clarification on what Nojima meant simply because... it's the French version. I mean why wold ONLY the French people be privy to this information?

If you're going to use the French version of "lovers" you might as well just use the original Japanese text and say, "Koibito means lover." That makes more sense then bouncing around from translation to translation...



As for people who speak French in Square, I doubt it, but I'd be willing to bet some of them speak English... like Nomura. But god, can you imagine if HE did the translation?

"Cloud was the woman's friend and lover... or maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was just a good friend but perhaps they went on a few dates together and something sparked. It might not have though. Perhaps he was nothing more than someone who reminded her of her ex, but there could have been something more there. Readers make strong conclusions for themselves."

 

[Splintered]

Really?

Relationships have been established as canon on less, Celes/Locke, Zidane/Garnet come to mind, etc, I actually remember someone (I think Matt?) saying we hear a lot from Zidane about fancying Garnet etc in FFIX, but not so much from Garnet.

Isn't this the exact same argument that has been made for Cloud/Tifa made in this thread? By a number of people.

Not that I'm disagreeing, C/A looks romantic to me. But by the same standards, Cloud and Tifa are lovers (koibito), Cloud belongs with Tifa and the family they are raising, and will probably be together for the rest of their lives- both the bad and the good.

There are no couples in this entire fucking franchise that have to jump through this many intellectual hoops to prove that they are in love than those two (CxA and CxT). Christ.

 

[Sprites]

OK, I have some points I'd like to address

Shadow said this:

She had been attracted to the part of him that reminded her of her ex-boyfriend, but was only just beginning to work her way out of that, and was risking herself to save the planet before she was murdered in front of him.

Then you said this:

Two quotes to keep in mind:

1) "At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.” ~Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga, FFVII Dismantled

2) “Although in the beginning Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.” ~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix

Didn't you read what Shadow said? Shadow said exactly what you're quoting that originally Aerith saw Cloud in a way that reminded her of Zack and then began to see him as not a reminder of Zack but as Cloud, just Cloud, did you only decide to read the part that where Shadow mentioned about Aerith being reminded of Zack through Cloud because that's exactly what it seems like.

So although Cloud wasn’t completely himself during disc 1, parts of the ‘real’ Cloud were present during his time with Aerith.

But even Aerith admits to Cloud she knows he's not himself and she wants to meet the real him.

1. Cloud thinks Aerith’s eyes are "impressive" 2. Cloud thinks Aerith’s smile is a "good purchase" 3. Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a ”mysterious feeling” 4. Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date 5. Cloud has a flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith’s house 6. Cloud and Aerith share an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story 7. Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him 8. Barret observes that Aerith is the first person Cloud cares for besides himself 9. Tifa gets jealous when she hears Cloud and Aerith flirting and developing their "own world" and "special bond" in the Shinra jail cell

Do you see everything you just mentioned? You've repeated it several times before, you don't need to keep repeating yourself, we heard you the first time but I'd like to address a couple of things seeing as you keep repeating them.

Cloud and Aerith share an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story

In which if it's a first date, it's very inconsiderate of her to bring up a past relationship or an ex. It's the golden rule of going on a date with someone, never bring up an ex yet she does it twice, poor Cloud having to listen to that.

Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him

This bothers me that you keep using this considering there are two options to chose from in that dialogue to Marlene, totally in the player's control. Marlene also calls Cloud stupid if Cloud (by the players choice) chooses not to acknowledge Marlene mentioning about Aerith liking Cloud and being completely clueless. Your point of using this is null and void because there are two options of dialogue to choose from TOTALLY within the player's choice, it's not a canon line.

Tifa gets jealous when she hears Cloud and Aerith flirting and developing their "own world" and "special bond" in the Shinra jail cell

Again I'm getting fed up of you putting words in that aren't there. There is no such "developing their own world" in the game, please stop putting things in that aren't there and don't happen. Now in terms of Tifa getting jealous, yes she does, I agree with that but it's not like she goes.

"FUCK YOU BITCH GET YER HANDS OF MY MAN"

She has a minor jealous moment where she starts to see Aerith as a rival for Cloud's affections then moves on and asks her questions about the Ancients, she doesn't nor does she ever hold a grudge against Aerith. I would say the only thing she's jealous of about Aerith is the fact she can be so open and honest with Cloud whereas Tifa struggles constantly to tell Cloud how she's feeling even though she has ample opportunity to do it, its one of the main differences between the two heroines.

Remember, this is video game world. Cloud and Aerith are shown going on two dates. IMO, that's plenty to establish them as 'lovers' in video game world.

This is also the same video game world where Cloud also has the option to nearly kiss Don Corneo, how about that Don nearly got further with Cloud than Aerith ever did

Tifa, Yuffie and Barret can also go on that date, Yuffie kisses Cloud on her date and Tifa ends up sleeping with Cloud in the end, so again your point in null and Void.

Also if you're gonna keep referring to Cloud and Aerith as having two dates that seem completely official in your eyes then I'd like to point out that Cloud and Tifa went on a date too...when they were 13 and 14 respectively. Cloud INVITED Tifa (look we're back to that word again ) out to the Water tower that night, they sat under the stars, a shooting star even goes by (I know another FF game where that happens in a romantic notion ) and they make a promise for Cloud to be her hero when she's in trouble, it doesn't get any more romantic or date like than that.

Relationships have been established as canon on less, Celes/Locke, Zidane/Garnet come to mind, etc, I actually remember someone (I think Matt?) saying we hear a lot from Zidane about fancying Garnet etc in FFIX, but not so much from Garnet.

But Garnet DOES reciprocate his feelings, she's quieter about it at the start but in the end she holds as much love for Zidane as he does for her there's several moments that clarify that even though neither of the come right out and say I love you in those exact words. I'm not jumping down your throat or anything but I think it's unfair to say that Garnet and Zidane are confirmed as an established canon on less evidence in their game than say maybe Clerith or Cloti (based on on what we see in the game). Celes and Locke you could argue the same.

THIS! I know we've complained before about Cloud and Tifa being held to a higher standard than most couples, well I feel like some are doing that with Cloud and Aerith now.

I don't think you can compare any two FF couples in the same way so it's ridiculous to hold any of them to a higher standard than the other in any respect but unfortunately it's hard not to use examples of them when making a point which I'm actually about to below and did above.

And unlike Celes x Locke, and Zidane x Garnet, Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all of their romantic moments in *ONE* disc. Just think if they had been given more time together how many more romantic moments they'd have!

I'm going to have to stop you right there, funny you mention the 1 disc thing considering FF6 is one cartridge/disc I don't think that point you made really stands also who cares if it's over one disc, that doesn't prove anything, in fact it damages your argument because in Celes and Lockes case and Garnet and Zidane's their feelings for each other are gradually built upon and reaches a lovely conclusion by the end of the game in fact you could argue the same for Cloud and Tifa because they admit how they feel to each other towards the end of the game and their feelings have been there since they were kids, it's actually kind of crap for Aerith that she gets some rushed and some player optional moments in one disc before she dies considering that nearly every other couple in FF gets far more attention to detail.

Hell, a lot of other FF couples don't even share as many romantic moments as Cloud and Aerith do, yet Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all their moments in one disc.

I'd like you to name all these couples please and provide examples for how they don't share as many romantic moments in their games as Clerith OR even Cloti because I think you're completely wrong on this one. Stop lumping all the couples together into one standard.

Next:

Shadow said this

Or his night with Tifa beneath the Highwind where they shared mutual feelings for one another without words?

You responded with this

Cloud *wavers* between two heroines.

Why can you not apply this standard for Clerith, you seem to absolutely enjoy pulling it out of the bag when Cloti evidence in the game is given to you.

It was the moment in Cosmo Canyon

The Cosmo Canyon line...I'd like to address something with it. I'm not saying that it can't be read as a romantic notion, after all it's very sweet of Cloud to say to Aerith "But I'm-...." catch himself on and then say "We're here for you" yes I'd agree that if you want to take it as Cloud having a slip up you can, but you can interpret that line in another way and this is the way I interpret it. Cloud says "I'm", there's an ellipses/a pause while he thinks about what he's saying then makes a point to say "we're here for you" don't you think that could be interpreted as Cloud thinking they're actually all there for her not just him. How am I coming to this conclusion? Well at the end of the conversation Cloud asks Aerith "Does that mean WE can't help?" as in the whole team with her problem, there's no "I can't help" from Cloud, just "we". Again I'm not saying that you can't interpret the line in a romantic way for your personal shipping of the couple if you want but what I am saying is that there are other ways to look at it, therefore you can't use it as concrete evidence for Clerith or as a romantic moment if you look at it the way I did.

But it was Cloud who initiated the rescue. IMO, given Cloud's willingness to rescue Aerith so soon after meeting her (and given what we know about Cloud's initial attraction to Aerith), I think SE was going for "love at first sight" (something that is common in TV, films, literature, etc.)

Cloud's going to rescue Aerith? Of course he is, she's in the hands of the enemy, he's just listened to Elmyra telling them how Aerith has always been hunted by Shinra and he did agree to be her bodyguard, she's also his friend he is going to go after her I'm not disputing that. Cloud's not a heartless bastard, but you forgot something. Aerith is an Ancient and right before they go to Elmyra's house Cloud has a flashback about Sephiroth mentioning being an Ancient and then collapses briefly, don't you think on some level that Cloud going after Aerith has something to do with Sephiroth and the Jenova cells calling him there because Jenova is there, granted you won't get this idea on the first play through, but playing the game again and realising how much control Sephiroth has had over Cloud during the game, well you can't help but wonder if that's something to do with it. Also funny that, that saving Aerith isn't his first priority immediately after she's captured, it's getting information about the Ancients (and Barret gets the opportunity to go see his daughter) if he was so in love with Aerith don't you think he would have said "Fuck that I'm going after her now" why wait, Cloud was quite happy to go rescue Tifa on his own, I assume he's have no problem doing it for Aerith if he really wanted to, the Love at first sight thing, I'm not going to even argue that, I'm just going to throw it out a window very far away from me.

Cloud also says, "I remember Aerith a lot" while visiting Cosmo Canyon during disc 2

He does indeed, but you're taking that quote completely out of context, so here's the conversation that takes place that leads to him saying that, apologies to everyone for this very long set of quotes from the game.

Red XIII
"Did you...... hear something?"
(The planet begins to cry.)
Tifa
"The planet's scream...... or Meteor...? Is it this planet?"
(They turn to face Cloud.)
Cloud
"Hey, how do we know that this is really the planet's scream?"
Tifa
"Did you forget?"
"Bugenhagen told us."
(Cloud nods)
Cloud
"Bugenhagen..."
Red XIII
"Let's go see Grandfather! To Cosmo Canyon!"
"I'm sure he'll be able to tell us something that will be helpful!"

Bugenhagen
"What to do? Have you lost your way? When that happens we each
have to take a good long look at ourselves."
"There's always something in the deepest reaches of our hearts."
"Something buried, or something forgotten."
"Remember it... Whatever that is, must certainly be what you are
all looking for..."
Cloud
"That's easy enough to say... But, I can't remember a thing."
Bugenhagen
"It must be there. Look harder!"
Tifa
"...no good. Cloud, let's have the others come."

Bugenhagen
"Do you see it? What is it that you are searching for?"
Cait Sith
"Nope. Not a thing. Naw. Can't come up with a thing."
Cloud
"I remember Aerith a lot."
"No... not that. You haven't remembered. You haven't forgotten.
That's not it..."
"How would you say it... Aerith was right there all along. Right
by our side."
"She was so close, we couldn't see her. What Aerith did... The
words she left behind..."
Tifa
"That reminds me... I was the same."
Red XIII
"As was I."
Barret
"Me too..."
Cloud
"She said that she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth's
Meteor."
Tifa
"But Aerith is gone."
Red XIII
"Is it impossible for us to carry on... what Aerith tried to
accomplish?"
Barret
"We ain't no Ancients, if that's what ya mean."
Cid
"What, did that girl go off to that place?"
Cloud
"That's it!!"
Cid
"What's it?"
Cloud
"We don't know about it."
"What did Aerith know?"
"Why did she face Sephiroth without running away?"

Red XIII
"I see... She returned there once again, correct?"

The whole context of that Conversation is the others trying to figure out why Aerith did what she did, why she died and trying to remember if there's anything that can prompt them to figure it out. Cloud along with everyone else is remembering Aerith for that reason it's not due to him being in love with her (maybe someone else here can explain it better than me) but my point is I'm getting tired of you taking quotes out of context to fit your argument.

I think that's everything I want to address, it's taken me ages to write this up so it won't surprise me by the time I post it if someone else has already responded to the arguments with some of my points.

 

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Didn't you read what Shadow said? Shadow said exactly what you're quoting that originally Aerith saw Cloud in a way that reminded her of Zack and then began to see him as not a reminder of Zack but as Cloud, just Cloud, did you only decide to read the part that where Shadow mentioned about Aerith being reminded of Zack through Cloud because that's exactly what it seems like.

But even Aerith admits to Cloud she knows he's not himself and she wants to meet the real him.

I clarified myself in my second response to Shadow:

All I'm saying is that it's pretty much irrelevant that Cloud wasn't his complete self during disc 1, and it's also irrelevant that Aerith was initially attracted to Cloud because of Zack. According to SE, Cloud and Aerith were able to develop a "special bond" **DESPITE** all of that. This special bond carries on between Cloud and Aerith *AFTER* Cloud regains all of his memories, and *AFTER* Aerith starts liking Cloud for who he is and not for who he reminds her of.

For instance, Cloud admits (after regaining all of his memories) to thinking about Aerith a lot. Then, in Advent Children, we continue to see Cloud and Aerith emotionally connected to one another. This special bond didn't stop at the end of disc 1, it continued long after Cloud regained his memories, and long after Aerith started liking Cloud for who he is and not for who he reminded her of.
-----
But the real Cloud admits to thinking about Aerith a lot.

What is the real Cloud thinking about when he admits to thinking about Aerith? His interactions with her during disc 1 (ie: when Cloud isn't his complete self). Obviously not being his complete self during disc 1 didn't diminish the importance of his and Aerith's interactions because he admits to thinking about their disc 1 interactions *AFTER* he regains all of his memories.

Furthermore, the real Cloud continues to be emotionally connected to Aerith in both CoT and AC.

In which if it's a first date, it's very inconsiderate of her to bring up a past relationship or an ex. It's the golden rule of going on a date with someone, never bring up an ex yet she does it twice, poor Cloud having to listen to that.

Aerith brought up Zack because he was also in SOLDIER.

As for your comment, "...poor Cloud having to listen to that." -- uhhh, okay? Poor Cloud only getting Tifa's attention when she thinks he's going to fulfill some fantasy of hers by becoming her knight in shining armor? Two can play at that game.

This bothers me that you keep using this considering there are two options to chose from in that dialogue to Marlene, totally in the player's control. Marlene also calls Cloud stupid if Cloud (by the players choice) chooses not to acknowledge Marlene mentioning about Aerith liking Cloud and being completely clueless. Your point of using this is null and void because there are two options of dialogue to choose from TOTALLY within the player's choice, it's not a canon line.

No. Cloud saying he hopes Aerith likes him is the canon version:

“Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she’s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says “I won’t tell Tifa!” demonstrates this grownup behavior.” ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

In order for Marlene to say, "I won't tell Tifa," Cloud is required to say, "Let's hope so."

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let’s hope so."
Marlene: "I won’t tell Tifa."

Cloud's line tells us he would like for there to be mutual romantic feelings between himself and Aerith.

Again I'm getting fed up of you putting words in that aren't there. There is no such "developing their own world" in the game, please stop putting things in that aren't there and don't happen.

Wrong again:

"FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings slip" ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Did you catch that? "...developing their world together..."

I have now provided you with two quotes that back-up what I've been saying. Please do not ignore this and concede that you were wrong to say I was 1) "putting words that aren't there" and 2) using non-canon evidence

Now in terms of Tifa getting jealous, yes she does, I agree with that but it's not like she goes.

"FUCK YOU BITCH GET YER HANDS OF MY MAN"

Hey, Tifa's comment was in all caps just like your imaginary comment!

She has a minor jealous moment where she starts to see Aerith as a rival for Cloud's affections then moves on and asks her questions about the Ancients, she doesn't nor does she ever hold a grudge against Aerith. I would say the only thing she's jealous of about Aerith is the fact she can be so open and honest with Cloud whereas Tifa struggles constantly to tell Cloud how she's feeling even though she has ample opportunity to do it, its one of the main differences between the two heroines.

Tifa has more than just a minor jealous moment. Her jealousy continues in Advent Children. Here is the entire passage outlining Tifa's jealousy towards Cloud and Aerith's relationship:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

• FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

• AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.”

~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This is also the same video game world where Cloud also has the option to nearly kiss Don Corneo, how about that Don nearly got further with Cloud than Aerith ever did

According to Aerith's profile, only Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith are members of the love triangle.

Tifa, Yuffie and Barret can also go on that date, Yuffie kisses Cloud on her date and Tifa ends up sleeping with Cloud in the end, so again your point in null and Void.

Why are you bringing up Yuffie and Barret? According to Aerith's profile, only Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith are members of the love triangle.

And in the world of canon, there can only be one date. Cloud and Aerith's date is the canon date:

• #111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] takes place...~Final Fantasy Art Collection

• “In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

• “Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Also if you're gonna keep referring to Cloud and Aerith as having two dates that seem completely official in your eyes then I'd like to point out that Cloud and Tifa went on a date too...when they were 13 and 14 respectively. Cloud INVITED Tifa (look we're back to that word again ) out to the Water tower that night, they sat under the stars, a shooting star even goes by (I know another FF game where that happens in a romantic notion ) and they make a promise for Cloud to be her hero when she's in trouble, it doesn't get any more romantic or date like than that.

Does SE call the moment at the water tower a date?

“Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in “FFVII” as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.” ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix

#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] takes place...~Final Fantasy Art Collection

“Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

The Cosmo Canyon line...I'd like to address something with it. I'm not saying that it can't be read as a romantic notion, after all it's very sweet of Cloud to say to Aerith "But I'm-...." catch himself on and then say "We're here for you" yes I'd agree that if you want to take it as Cloud having a slip up you can, but you can interpret that line in another way and this is the way I interpret it. Cloud says "I'm", there's an ellipses/a pause while he thinks about what he's saying then makes a point to say "we're here for you" don't you think that could be interpreted as Cloud thinking they're actually all there for her not just him. How am I coming to this conclusion? Well at the end of the conversation Cloud asks Aerith "Does that mean WE can't help?" as in the whole team with her problem, there's no "I can't help" from Cloud, just "we". Again I'm not saying that you can't interpret the line in a romantic way for your personal shipping of the couple if you want but what I am saying is that there are other ways to look at it, therefore you can't use it as concrete evidence for Clerith or as a romantic moment if you look at it the way I did.

I personally view Cloud's line in Cosmo Canyon as a classic romantic slip-up. Can I 100% prove this? No. But SE isn't going to beat us over the head with obvious examples of romance...they are more sophisticated than that.

Cloud's going to rescue Aerith? Of course he is, she's in the hands of the enemy, he's just listened to Elmyra telling them how Aerith has always been hunted by Shinra and he did agree to be her bodyguard, she's also his friend he is going to go after her I'm not disputing that.

Right. Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of a romantic date.

Cloud's not a heartless bastard, but you forgot something. Aerith is an Ancient and right before they go to Elmyra's house Cloud has a flashback about Sephiroth mentioning being an Ancient and then collapses briefly, don't you think on some level that Cloud going after Aerith has something to do with Sephiroth and the Jenova cells calling him there because Jenova is there, granted you won't get this idea on the first play through, but playing the game again and realising how much control Sephiroth has had over Cloud during the game, well you can't help but wonder if that's something to do with it. Also funny that, that saving Aerith isn't his first priority immediately after she's captured, it's getting information about the Ancients (and Barret gets the opportunity to go see his daughter) if he was so in love with Aerith don't you think he would have said "Fuck that I'm going after her now" why wait, Cloud was quite happy to go rescue Tifa on his own, I assume he's have no problem doing it for Aerith if he really wanted to, the Love at first sight thing, I'm not going to even argue that, I'm just going to throw it out a window very far away from me.

When they go to rescue Aerith, a conversation between Cloud and Barret takes place:

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…
Barret: Heh, heh, heh.
Cloud: What is it? You're givin' me the willies.
Barret:So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.


I can't help but think by including Barret's line, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed," SE was drawing attention to Cloud and Aerith's "special bond".

Oh, and taking the stairs is the canon version of entering the Shinra headquarters:

Barret: Oouuuch!! The muscles on my feet have stretched to the fullest.
The idea of taking the stairs for 59 floors because the guards there are scarce is a big mistake! Maybe it’s easier if we just raid on the building and smash the enemy right in front….Tsk! Am I this old?

Anyway, after we reached the 60th floor, the guard security seemed to get loose. They had never expected that we’d be able to break through and came here…those carefree fools.

There’re some staffs murmured cuz I don’t look like any one of them. But little doubts didn’t make them cry for alert. Here we met the mayor of Midgar for the first time, and the feeling was still bad.

Seriously, he’s just a dummy administrator who takes care of all sorts of data. He was very discontent with Shinra, so we got the cardkey without much effort. That’s why I can take a break in this rest room…..

Erm, Tifa, can I ask for…. a little massage on my legs? Ah, she left already?" ~Dismantled, Page 146

The whole context of that Conversation is the others trying to figure out why Aerith did what she did, why she died and trying to remember if there's anything that can prompt them to figure it out. Cloud along with everyone else is remembering Aerith for that reason it's not due to him being in love with her (maybe someone else here can explain it better than me) but my point is I'm getting tired of you taking quotes out of context to fit your argument.

Cloud says he thinks about Aerith "a lot" -- this means more than in just that moment. He thinks about her frequently ("a lot"). We have no idea what exactly is going through Cloud's mind when he thinks about Aerith. Could be romance, could be the other things you've mentioned. Could be both. We'll never know.

 

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Aerith brought up Zack because he was also in SOLDIER.

Yet you're the one that brought up that they were discussing romantic relationships, more to the point it was Aerith that brought up the subject of boyfriends, Cloud never said anything about relationships.

No. Cloud saying he hopes Aerith likes him is the canon version:

“Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she’s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says “I won’t tell Tifa!” demonstrates this grownup behavior.” ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

In order for Marlene to say, "I won't tell Tifa," Cloud is required to say, "Let's hope so."

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let’s hope so."
Marlene: "I won’t tell Tifa."

Fine I acknowledge this.

I have now provided you with two quotes that back-up what I've been saying. Please do not ignore this and concede that you were wrong to say I was 1) "putting words that aren't there" and 2) using non-canon evidence

Fine I concede that I was wrong to doubt SE and the evidence put in front of me, you've backed it up and I'll back down, I just wish you could do the same when the evidence is put in front of you.

Hey, Tifa's comment was in all caps just like your imaginary comment!

No need for the condescending tone...

Oh, and taking the stairs is the canon version of entering the Shinra headquarters

I never said it wasn't in fact I agree that it IS the canon version, but you're ignoring what I'm actually disputing, that Cloud's only reason for going after Aerith is because he's in love with her, I'm disputing that, not which path do they take to go rescue her, but great job on the attempt to distract from what I'm actually talking about.

I can't help but think by including Barret's line, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed," SE was drawing attention to Cloud and Aerith's "special bond"

No. They aren't. What they're establishing is that up until now Barret has only seen Cloud as a mercenary who only does things for the job, that the impression up until now that Barret has got from Cloud, now he's seeing a different side to him, I believe this argument was settled before in the thread a while back.

I personally view Cloud's line in Cosmo Canyon as a classic romantic slip-up. Can I 100% prove this? No. But SE isn't going to beat us over the head with obvious examples of romance...they are more sophisticated than that.

Really? Other examples from other FF games would suggest otherwise and right off the bat I can think of Tidus and Yuna's Kiss, Cecil and Rosa's outright relationship in FFIV and Squall and Rinoa full stop as pretty obvious examples of romance in the games. You still haven't given me examples of couples that have less romantic scenes than Cloud and Aerith or Cloud and Tifa.

Cloud says he thinks about Aerith "a lot" -- this means more than in just that moment. He thinks about her frequently ("a lot"). We have no idea what exactly is going through Cloud's mind when he thinks about Aerith. Could be romance, could be the other things you've mentioned. Could be both. We'll never know.

Thank you for at least agreeing that it's not just about the romance but it's pretty much there as to why he's talking about remembering her, why the whole team is.

Tifa has more than just a minor jealous moment. Her jealousy continues in Advent Children. Here is the entire passage outlining Tifa's jealousy towards Cloud and Aerith's relationship:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.”
~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

I can let the developing world thing go, I've already conceded to that but since when does complex=jealousy?

Does SE call the moment at the water tower a date

No they don't I agree, that's my opinion, I used it to get a point across about the dates and well it's not like they need to come out and say it is it?

You see this is where I'm bothered by your arguments again I'll requote you here for the example.

I personally view Cloud's line in Cosmo Canyon as a classic romantic slip-up. Can I 100% prove this? No. But SE isn't going to beat us over the head with obvious examples of romance...they are more sophisticated than that.

Using Cosmo Canyon as the example, you've said this is your personal view, well then it's my personal view that Tifa and Cloud's Water Tower moment is very datelike and romantic that's all well and good we're allowed to have our personal opinions on this but is it classified as a date in the actual terms no it's not can I 100% PROVE it's a date, no but I can choose to interpret it that way.

But then you bring SE into it by saying "oh well they never said it but you know they like to be subtle and sophisticated" it's like you're trying to say "but we all know that's what they were really aiming for"

You can't have it both ways you can't use your personal opinion to try and prove something as canon or not then call out someone (me in this instance) for doing the same and then start saying stuff like you only go by what SE says when you're guilty on several occasions of inserting your own opinion and words and trying to say it's canon, you can't have it both ways.

According to Aerith's profile, only Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith are members of the love triangle.

According to you originally this is a Video Game world where two dates=lovers, which is it your personal opinion or is it SE's actual facts on the matter you can't have both, again you can't have it both ways.


On this note I'd like to apologise to everyone also, looking back on my previous argument, I admit it seems a bit biased in places based on personal opinion rather than actual facts and I think I might have lost the thread of what I was trying to argue. I'd rather not edit my post or anything because I'm hoping it'll serve as a reminder to me to argue more of the facts than personal opinion and have the right evidence to back it up, so yeah people are more than welcome to disregard aspects of my previous post.

 

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Yet you're the one that brought up that they were discussing romantic relationships, more to the point it was Aerith that brought up the subject of boyfriends, Cloud never said anything about relationships.

SE conveniently had Aerith bring up romantic relationships while sharing a date with Cloud. I'm just connecting the dots...

Fine I acknowledge this.

Fine I concede that I was wrong to doubt SE and the evidence put in front of me, you've backed it up and I'll back down, I just wish you could do the same when the evidence is put in front of you.

Thank you.

No need for the condescending tone...

Sorry -- I just found it ironic that you put your imaginary Tifa comment in all caps, and Tifa's actual comment, "EXCUSE ME!" was also in all caps.

I never said it wasn't in fact I agree that it IS the canon version, but you're ignoring what I'm actually disputing, that Cloud's only reason for going after Aerith is because he's in love with her, I'm disputing that, not which path do they take to go rescue her, but great job on the attempt to distract from what I'm actually talking about.

I'm not saying Cloud rescued Aerith just because he loved her. But SE could have had Cloud rescue anyone. Why did they pick Aerith? In my opinion, it was because they wanted to show their special bond developing.

No. They aren't. What they're establishing is that up until now Barret has only seen Cloud as a mercenary who only does things for the job, that the impression up until now that Barret has got from Cloud, now he's seeing a different side to him, I believe this argument was settled before in the thread a while back.

If by "settled" you mean we agreed to disagree? Just because multiple Cloti's tell me I'm wrong doesn't make it so.

Anyway --

It isn't an either or situation. Yes, it was meant to highlight Barret's changing perspective of Cloud. But it was also meant to highlight Cloud's increasingly fast attraction to Aerith. Two birds, one stone.

Really? Other examples from other FF games would suggest otherwise and right off the bat I can think of Tidus and Yuna's Kiss, Cecil and Rosa's outright relationship in FFIV and Squall and Rinoa full stop as pretty obvious examples of romance in the games.

Right. SE includes both obvious and subtle romantic moments. Cosmo Canyon is a more sophisticated romantic moment.

Thank you for at least agreeing that it's not just about the romance but it's pretty much there as to why he's talking about remembering her, why the whole team is.

In that moment, I agree Cloud is thinking about Aerith in the same way the other members are. But Cloud says he thinks about Aerith "a lot" -- meaning in moments other than the one with the team. We have no idea what Cloud is thinking about during those other moments that he thinks about Aerith.

But my point isn't really about if Cloud thinks about Aerith romantically. My point is that the REAL CLOUD thinks about Aerith. This means that Cloud's interactions with Aerith aren't null-and-void simply because he wasn't his complete self. Obviously, the real Cloud values and cherishes the interactions he had with Aerith --despite not being his complete self during those interactions-- because he thinks about Aerith based on those interactions *AFTER* becoming complete self. Does that make sense?

I can let the developing world thing go, I've already conceded to that but since when does complex=jealousy?

The entire passage has a theme of jealously.

No they don't I agree, that's my opinion, I used it to get a point across about the dates and well it's not like they need to come out and say it is it?

Using Cosmo Canyon as the example, you've said this is your personal view, well then it's my personal view that Tifa and Cloud's Water Tower moment is very datelike and romantic that's all well and good we're allowed to have our personal opinions on this but is it classified as a date in the actual terms no it's not can I 100% PROVE it's a date, no but I can choose to interpret it that way.

But then you bring SE into it by saying "oh well they never said it but you know they like to be subtle and sophisticated" it's like you're trying to say "but we all know that's what they were really aiming for"

You can't have it both ways you can't use your personal opinion to try and prove something as canon or not then call out someone (me in this instance) for doing the same and then start saying stuff like you only go by what SE says when you're guilty on several occasions of inserting your own opinion and words and trying to say it's canon, you can't have it both ways.

I'm very upfront about it being my opinion that Cosmo Canyon is romantic. And you are free to also hold the opinion that Cloud and Tifa shared a date at the water tower.

The difference is that I'm not trying to compare Cosmo Canyon to something that happened between Cloud and Tifa. You, on the other hand, are trying to equate the water tower to Cloud and Aerith's two dates. By making this comparison, I'm simply pointing out that SE never calls the water tower a date, but they have specifically and directly said Cloud and Aerith share two dates.

According to you originally this is a Video Game world where two dates=lovers, which is it your personal opinion or is it SE's actual facts on the matter you can't have both, again you can't have it both ways.

It wasn't just the two dates though. I've already explained why it was more than the two dates:

From the very moment Cloud falls to Aerith Church, they spend a ton of one-on-one time together -- defeating the Turks, going to Aerith's house, sharing a date, and cross dressing to save Tifa. This set of events was meant to develop the romance between Cloud and Aerith. These events are also what led Cloud to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Then, their "world" continues to develop in the Shinra jail cell in-front of Tifa, they share a romantic moment in Cosmo Canyon by the fire, and a date at Gold Saucer takes place. Then, SE includes a marriage prediction, hinting to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith will probably get married. All of this was meant to create a mutual love between Cloud and Aerith so that when Sephiroth killed Aerith, it was that much more heartbreaking and shocking. Cloud's love interest would be the last person we'd expect to be killed off, and it wasn't just a friend who was killed, it was Cloud's potential wife.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

SE conveniently had Aerith bring up romantic relationships while sharing a date with Cloud. I'm just connecting the dots...

Must be an interesting picture once all the dots are joined up, what with them being all about her ex-boyfriend and all.

Sorry -- I just found it ironic that you put your imaginary Tifa comment in all caps, and Tifa's actual comment, "EXCUSE ME!" was also in all caps.

How is that ironic? Two lines, one greatly more exaggerated than the real one, presumably both shouted/spoken loudly... rendered in all caps. Nope, no irony there, as its exactly what you'd expect.

I'm not saying Cloud rescued Aerith just because he loved her.

Just thinking it really really hard right?

But SE could have had Cloud rescue anyone. Why did they pick Aerith?

... because she's the super special snowflake Ancient and thus it makes narrative sense for her to be kidnapped? Cloud rescues Priscilla too, is that a choice SE made to show Cloud's secret status as an ephebophile? I doubt it.

In my opinion, it was because they wanted to show their special bond developing.

Oh. Opinions. Joy.

If by "settled" you mean we agreed to disagree? Just because multiple Cloti's tell me I'm wrong doesn't make it so.

No it doesn't. The fact that you're wrong makes it so. Which is why people keep telling you so

It isn't an either or situation. Yes, it was meant to highlight Barret's changing perspective of Cloud. But it was also meant to highlight Cloud's increasingly fast attraction to Aerith. Two birds, one stone.

By your own standards (or rather, one of your multiple flexible standards you claim to use) you can't say this. No one from SE has said "yeah we're killing two birds with one stone here" and made it, in any way, about Aerith. Its not a bad theory, I can even agree with it. I just want you to pick a standard and hold to it for more than five minutes/as soon as it becomes inconvenient. Also, Occam's Razor really says its about Barret and Cloud above all.

Right. SE includes both obvious and subtle romantic moments. Cosmo Canyon is a more sophisticated romantic moment.

And yet you demand something super obvious like a full blown on screen kiss or something before you'll accept Cloud/Tifa. See them standards change folks! With amazing speed the goalposts are now in a completely different location!

In that moment, I agree Cloud is thinking about Aerith in the same way the other members are. But Cloud says he thinks about Aerith "a lot" -- meaning in moments other than the one with the team. We have no idea what Cloud is thinking about during those other moments that he thinks about Aerith.

The chick was fatally impaled a couple of feet away from him. Whether he felt anything romantic or not, no fucking shit he thinks about her a lot.

But my point isn't really about if Cloud thinks about Aerith romantically. My point is that the REAL CLOUD thinks about Aerith. This means that Cloud's interactions with Aerith aren't null-and-void simply because he wasn't his complete self. Obviously, the real Cloud values and cherishes the interactions he had with Aerith --despite not being his complete self during those interactions-- because he thinks about Aerith based on those interactions *AFTER* becoming complete self. Does that make sense?

Sweet, something I can just unequivocally agree with. Nice to see now and then.

The entire passage has a theme of jealously.

The question is, is she jealous because she thinks Aerith is gettin' all up in her kool-aid... or because Aerith is so much less introverted about shit and actually able to TRY while Tifa's all locked up?

I'm very upfront about it being my opinion that Cosmo Canyon is romantic. And you are free to also hold the opinion that Cloud and Tifa shared a date at the water tower.

Didn't we used to have a whole separate thread where people could throw opinions on ships around? So they'd stay out of here, where the facts are supposed to live? Whatever happened to that anyway?

The difference is that I'm not trying to compare Cosmo Canyon to something that happened between Cloud and Tifa.

All I see in here some days are comparisons between Cloud/Aerith this and Cloud/Tifa that. I'm not sure how this was any different.

You, on the other hand, are trying to equate the water tower to Cloud and Aerith's two dates. By making this comparison, I'm simply pointing out that SE never calls the water tower a date, but they have specifically and directly said Cloud and Aerith share two dates.

First off, I pity SE if they think that crap in the park counts as a date. What sad, lonely lives they must have led in their dating years if "let's take a breather and talk about my ex!" is a date. Secondly... I'm looking at that bit I italicized and wondering...

The difference is that I'm not trying to compare Cosmo Canyon to something that happened between Cloud and Tifa.

... which is it?

It wasn't just the two dates though. I've already explained why it was more than the two dates:

From the very moment Cloud falls to Aerith Church, they spend a ton of one-on-one time together -- defeating the Turks, going to Aerith's house, sharing a date, and cross dressing to save Tifa. This set of events was meant to develop the romance between Cloud and Aerith. These events are also what led Cloud to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Then, their "world" continues to develop in the Shinra jail cell in-front of Tifa, they share a romantic moment in Cosmo Canyon by the fire, and a date at Gold Saucer takes place. Then, SE includes a marriage prediction, hinting to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith will probably get married. All of this was meant to create a mutual love between Cloud and Aerith so that when Sephiroth killed Aerith, it was that much more heartbreaking and shocking. Cloud's love interest would be the last person we'd expect to be killed off, and it wasn't just a friend who was killed, it was Cloud's potential wife.

I'm just gonna let this steaming pile of wishing to speak for itself. The component bits (excepting select bits) have individually been debunked, argued into the ground, and so on so often I can only laugh seeing them all in one paragraph yet again.

 

[Sprites]

But my point isn't really about if Cloud thinks about Aerith romantically. My point is that the REAL CLOUD thinks about Aerith. This means that Cloud's interactions with Aerith aren't null-and-void simply because he wasn't his complete self. Obviously, the real Cloud values and cherishes the interactions he had with Aerith --despite not being his complete self during those interactions-- because he thinks about Aerith based on those interactions *AFTER* becoming complete self. Does that make sense?

It does make sense actually and I can see where you're coming from on that so I won't disagree with you there

The difference is that I'm not trying to compare Cosmo Canyon to something that happened between Cloud and Tifa. You, on the other hand, are trying to equate the water tower to Cloud and Aerith's two dates. By making this comparison, I'm simply pointing out that SE never calls the water tower a date, but they have specifically and directly said Cloud and Aerith share two dates.

That's actually not something I was trying to do, I was trying to point out that Cloud and Tifa have technically had a date already, Aerith isn't the only one that Cloud has had a date with if you want to call what they had at the water tower that, the difference being that Cloud instigated that and I'm also trying to say that yes Cloud and Aerith's gold saucer date I do actually consider the canon date, I'd be stupid to say it's not but it's not his only option.

I'm not saying Cloud rescued Aerith just because he loved her. But SE could have had Cloud rescue anyone. Why did they pick Aerith? In my opinion, it was because they wanted to show their special bond developing.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this because I can easily counter that with why pick Tifa to be the one that Cloud promises to help when she's in trouble and say that in my opinion it's because they want to show Cloud and Tifa's relationship and feelings developing for eachother. We'll just go in circles arguing it out.

Right. SE includes both obvious and subtle romantic moments. Cosmo Canyon is a more sophisticated romantic moment.

True I won't deny they include both obvious and subtle moments in their games, but the line at Cosmo Canyon is not mentioned at any time by SE therefore it's your opinion on how you interpret that line and which I already stated you could certainly interpret it as romantic or unromantic but it's not unfortunately not a fact or mentioned by SE as a moment between them, therefore I don't think it's a good point for you to argue for the canon of Clerith is all I'm saying.

Hell, a lot of other FF couples don't even share as many romantic moments as Cloud and Aerith do, yet Cloud and Aerith were able to accumulate all their moments in one disc.

I'd like you to name all these couples please and provide examples for how they don't share as many romantic moments in their games as Clerith OR even Cloti because I think you're completely wrong on this one

I would like you to answer this please I'm not debating here the canon for Clerith or Cloti I would like you to tell me how many other couples don't share as many romantic moments as Cloud or Aerith do or even Cloud and Tifa only because I feel like you're setting them at this standard that no other FF couples can achieve (that's already been mentioned a lot)

I can pick a ton of other romantic moments that several FF couples have compared to the moments that Aerith and Cloud have and even Cloud and Tifa have so I feel it's unfair to say that they have way more than any other couple.

 

[BlankBeat]

Must be an interesting picture once all the dots are joined up, what with them being all about her ex-boyfriend and all.

Yes. Aerith was initially interested in Cloud because he reminded her of Zack. So what? She later states she loves Cloud more than Zack:

• "At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.” ~Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga, FFVII Dismantled

• "Although in the beginning Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.” ~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix

Bottom line is, shortly after this date, Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

How is that ironic? Two lines, one greatly more exaggerated than the real one, presumably both shouted/spoken loudly... rendered in all caps. Nope, no irony there, as its exactly what you'd expect.

Sprites said Tifa had a minor jealous moment, and used an all-caps example of what Tifa *DIDN'T* say. Yet, Tifa's line in FFVII was all-caps.

Honestly, are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

Just thinking it really really hard right?

... because she's the super special snowflake Ancient and thus it makes narrative sense for her to be kidnapped? Cloud rescues Priscilla too, is that a choice SE made to show Cloud's secret status as an ephebophile? I doubt it.

Oh. Opinions. Joy.

No it doesn't. The fact that you're wrong makes it so. Which is why people keep telling you so

None of these comments add anything productive to the discussion. I'll just let them be.

By your own standards (or rather, one of your multiple flexible standards you claim to use) you can't say this. No one from SE has said "yeah we're killing two birds with one stone here" and made it, in any way, about Aerith.

But SE decided to have Cloud and co. rescue Aerith. They could have had Cloud and co. rescue Tifa, or Marlene, or Barret. But they chose Aerith. And they had Barret remark that Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself. IMO, SE was highlighting the special bond developing between Cloud and Aerith. This special bond is showcased shortly after in the Shinra jail cell.

And yet you demand something super obvious like a full blown on screen kiss or something before you'll accept Cloud/Tifa. See them standards change folks! With amazing speed the goalposts are now in a completely different location!

Cloud *wavers* between two heroines.

However, I will note:

• "Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. ~Nojima On the Way to a Smile interview

After Final Fantasy VII, we see Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in Case of Tifa. However, according to Nojima there’s a premise that things won’t go well between Cloud and Tifa. He specifies that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, things still might not have gone well between them. This means the issues between Cloud and Tifa are likely inherent, and not a result of extenuating circumstances like Geostigma and Sephiroth.

In Case of Tifa, we see constant and inherent communication problems between Cloud and Tifa. This results in a fractured relationship.

• I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. ~Nojima On the Way to a Smile interview

Based on what transpires in Case of Tifa, and based on Nojima’s premise that things won’t go well between Cloud and TIfa, the Advent Children relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as “childhood friends”; NOT romantic partners or lovers.

Nojima then says that he guesses Denzel and Marlene could help Cloud and Tifa work out their issues after Advent Children. But we never find out if the children help them work through their issues. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status is uncertain/unknown.

We never see Cloud and TIfa act romantically *AND* Cloud has a separate room with a bed. There’s no indication they are anything more than two childhood friends running a business together. Oh, and their family wasn’t formed from a romantic place and it includes Barret. Marlene invites Cloud to join HER family (a family that already includes Barret).

The chick was fatally impaled a couple of feet away from him. Whether he felt anything romantic or not, no fucking shit he thinks about her a lot.

K.

Sweet, something I can just unequivocally agree with. Nice to see now and then.

Thanks.

The question is, is she jealous because she thinks Aerith is gettin' all up in her kool-aid... or because Aerith is so much less introverted about shit and actually able to TRY while Tifa's all locked up?

One of the lines specifically says that Tifa let her “peevish feelings” slip when she saw Cloud and Aerith developing their “own world” together. Tifa was jealous about the world Cloud and Aerith were forming together. And based on what Cloud tells Marlene, the world they were forming was romantic.

Didn't we used to have a whole separate thread where people could throw opinions on ships around? So they'd stay out of here, where the facts are supposed to live? Whatever happened to that anyway?

Don't know.

All I see in here some days are comparisons between Cloud/Aerith this and Cloud/Tifa that. I'm not sure how this was any different.

And I'm pointing out the water tower was never specified to be a date, whereas Cloud and Aerith are specified to go on two dates.

First off, I pity SE if they think that crap in the park counts as a date. What sad, lonely lives they must have led in their dating years if "let's take a breather and talk about my ex!" is a date. Secondly... I'm looking at that bit I italicized and wondering...

Irrelevant if you think it's a crap date. SE considers it a date.

And Aerith brings up Zack because he was in SOLIDER. It was to provide some foreshadowing and hint at Cloud's memory issues.

I'm just gonna let this steaming pile of wishing to speak for itself. The component bits (excepting select bits) have individually been debunked, argued into the ground, and so on so often I can only laugh seeing them all in one paragraph yet again.

LOL

From the very moment Cloud falls to Aerith Church, they spend a ton of one-on-one time together -- defeating the Turks, going to Aerith's house, sharing a date, and cross dressing to save Tifa.

[All true]

This set of events was meant to develop the romance between Cloud and Aerith.These events are also what led Cloud to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

[Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him shortly after these events take place]

Then, their "world" continues to develop in the Shinra jail cell in-front of Tifa,

["FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings slip" ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania]

they share a romantic moment in Cosmo Canyon by the fire

[Classic romantic slip-up]

and a date at Gold Saucer takes place.

[ --#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] takes place...~Final Fantasy Art Collection
--“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
--Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix]

Then, SE includes a marriage prediction, hinting to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith will probably get married.

[“After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix]

All of this was meant to create a mutual love between Cloud and Aerith so that when Sephiroth killed Aerith, it was that much more heartbreaking and shocking. Cloud's love interest would be the last person we'd expect to be killed off, and it wasn't just a friend who was killed, it was Cloud's potential wife.

[Yes, this is my opinion, but a death can only make a wedding prediction more painful if a wedding was possible before that person died]

--------------------

That's actually not something I was trying to do, I was trying to point out that Cloud and Tifa have technically had a date already, Aerith isn't the only one that Cloud has had a date with if you want to call what they had at the water tower that, the difference being that Cloud instigated that and I'm also trying to say that yes Cloud and Aerith's gold saucer date I do actually consider the canon date, I'd be stupid to say it's not but it's not his only option.

If you want to personally believe Cloud and Tifa have already had a date, fine. But SE hasn't declared it as such.

True I won't deny they include both obvious and subtle moments in their games, but the line at Cosmo Canyon is not mentioned at any time by SE therefore it's your opinion on how you interpret that line and which I already stated you could certainly interpret it as romantic or unromantic but it's not unfortunately not a fact or mentioned by SE as a moment between them, therefore I don't think it's a good point for you to argue for the canon of Clerith is all I'm saying.

You should read Tres' analysis of Cloud's Cosmo Canyon line in his recent LTD article. He may be able to sway you better than I can.

PS: I have no idea which page his Cosmo Canyon analysis is on, so maybe someone can help me out.

I would like you to answer this please I'm not debating here the canon for Clerith or Cloti I would like you to tell me how many other couples don't share as many romantic moments as Cloud or Aerith do or even Cloud and Tifa only because I feel like you're setting them at this standard that no other FF couples can achieve (that's already been mentioned a lot)

I can pick a ton of other romantic moments that several FF couples have compared to the moments that Aerith and Cloud have and even Cloud and Tifa have so I feel it's unfair to say that they have way more than any other couple.

Ugh. This would take pages and pages of debate because not everyone agrees with what is or isn't romantic.

To me, Cosmo Canyon would count under CxA's tally of romantic moments. But it wouldn't count under your tally. So to even begin down this road would take far too much energy than I'm willing to put forth. Sorry.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

THIS! I know we've complained before about Cloud and Tifa being held to a higher standard than most couples, well I feel like some are doing that with Cloud and Aerith now.

Agreed.

Another thing was the whole Ultimania/Bentstuff thing ... when there were some demands for Nojima/Nomura/Kitase/etc to have worked on it or w/e there/it not being acceptable unless they had, etc, stuff in the Ultimania not being valid because it didn't come straight from the mouth of those guys, staff at Studio Bentstuff being unreliable, etc

Also this though I'm not sure if Blankbeat was involved in that or not.

He wasn't.
----


BlankBeat, I'll try to keep this brief since you have multiple conversations going on.

The argument that a translation can fall short of conveying authorial intent is an argument that can be made about any official translation, and seems to be the go-to argument when someone disagrees with an official translation.

When have you seen me -- or anyone here, really -- go that route? If I disagree with an official translation, I pull up the Japanese text and explain why the official translation is wrong.

And they often are at some or another. Not because the translators doing the work are bad at it (I still argue to this day that FFVII's original translation is really freakin' good, despite its classic, well-known errors), but because they have a lot of material to go over in a short period of time. Mistakes get made.

Coming back to the topic of disagreeing with official translations, the line from the end of FFVII is really the only case of disagreement where a debate can even be had since the original wording is ambiguous even in Japanese, and I'm not so much disagreeing with the translation itself as the conclusions you draw from it.

My point is that official translations, considering Square Enix trusts and hires these people to do them ...

Where are you getting the notion from that Square hired them to do this? Presumably Lumen (the French publisher) wanted to translate and publish it, so they secured the rights to do so through the well-known third party mentioned on the copyright page (Tuttle-Mori).

Honestly, there's no way to prove if the official translations do or don't fall short of authorial intent (unless we directly ask Nojima about every single official translation). So what's the point in pointing out something we can never find out?

Because you're doing the same thing.

How do we know a French and Japanese speaking man or woman working for SE didn't proof read the translations? We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

And that's your argument for it reflecting the intent of the original author? That "we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes" when a) Nojima probably doesn't know French if he doesn't know English (a language actually frequently used in Japan for business purposes), b) Kitase doesn't know what goes on in the localization process, c) it's unlikely that the company being paid for the use of a license is going to then spend its own money to have its own translator do what the other company's translator is supposed to be doing (particularly when, as mentioned in "b," the lead developer of the FF brand has little knowledge of the localization process on stuff SE itself actually publishes) and d) the copyright page gives no indication that "c" took place?

You really think that not only some extra effort was put into this over and above what generally comes with licensing something for translation and publication to a company in another country, but that no one remembered to mention it on the copyright page? When even the game strategy guides published by BradyGames and Piggyback thank by name the Square employees who communicated with them during the writing of those guides?

Come on now. The games might be fantasy, but discussion of them shouldn't be.

It's like you're obsessed with pointing out something that can neither be proven or disproven. Honestly...why bring it up? We all know that Nojima may disagree with the official translations. But we'll never know for sure. So what's the relevance in bringing up something that is both obvious and impossible to find out?

The same question applies to you. What's the point in bringing up a French translation like it's insight when the notion can't be proven?

I just find it kind of curious that an unknown and obvious point (Nojima didn't do the translation and could disagree with them) is being brought up when an official translation gives evidence in favor of Cloud x Aerith.

You already know I agree with your conclusion on the basis of the material itself and the wording in the original language, so it shouldn't be curious at all. It's your reasoning I disagree with.

We'll never know if Nojima agrees or disagrees with the translation. However, based on the best information we have available, Cloud is Aerith's lover according to the official French translation. Period.

Because we all know how insightful those official European translations have been historically.

 

[BlankBeat]

When have you seen me -- or anyone here, really -- go that route? If I disagree with an official translation, I pull up the Japanese text and explain why the official translation is wrong.

And they often are at some or another. Not because the translators doing the work are bad at it (I still argue to this day that FFVII's original translation is really freakin' good, despite its classic, well-known errors), but because they have a lot of material to go over in a short period of time. Mistakes get made.

Coming back to the topic of disagreeing with official translations, the line from the end of FFVII is really the only case of disagreement where a debate can even be had since the original wording is ambiguous even in Japanese, and I'm not so much disagreeing with the translation itself as the conclusions people draw from it.

Where are you getting the notion from that Square hired them to do this? Presumably Lumen (the French publisher) wanted to translate and publish it, so they secured the rights to do so through the well-known third party mentioned on the copyright page (Tuttle-Mori).

Because you're doing the same thing.

And that's your argument for it reflecting the intent of the original author? That "we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes" when a) Nojima probably doesn't know French if he doesn't know English (a language actually frequently used in Japan for business purposes), b) Kitase doesn't know what goes on in the localization process, c) it's unlikely that the company being paid for the use of a license is going to then spend its own money to have its own translator do what the other company's translator is supposed to be doing (particularly when, as mentioned in "b," the lead developer of the FF brand has little knowledge of the localization process on stuff SE itself actually publishes) and d) the copyright page gives no indication that "c" took place?

You really think that not only some extra effort was put into this over and above what generally comes with licensing something for translation and publication to a company in another country, but that no one remembered to mention it on the copyright page? When even the game strategy guides published by BradyGames and Piggyback thank by name the Square employees who communicated with them during the writing of those guides?

Come on now. The games might be fantasy, but discussion of them shouldn't be.

The same question applies to you. What's the point in bringing up a French translation like it's insight when the notion can't be proven?

You already know I agree with your conclusion on the basis of the material itself and the wording in the original language, so it shouldn't be curious at all. It's your reasoning I disagree with.

Because we all know how insightful those official European translations have been historically.

Ugh. Going over each and every one of your responses seems futile at this point.

Here is my overall point: "koibito" can mean "beloved" or "lover" in Japanese. Ryu (and others) have stated it probably means "beloved". However, you and myself believe it means "lover."

Well, the French translation of "amant" isn't ambiguous like "koibito" is. Amant in French means lover. Plain and simple.

Given that there's ample evidence to conclude Cloud was Aerith's lover, and SE has officially endorsed the French translation (regardless of Nojima's lack of involvement), Cloud is Aerith's lover. SE has endorsed this translation -- it has their stamp of approval.

At this point, there's really nothing more that can be done unless Nojima is asked directly about it (which is highly unlikely). Therefore, based on all the available information we have access to, "koibito" means "lover" according to the SE approved French translation. Cloud is Aerith's lover.

 

[Strangelove]

cloud 'thinking about aerith a lot' is actually another thing the localisation added or messed up, the japanese line just says that he remembers aerith which follows on to his next line about not having remembered/forgotten

クラウド
「俺は……エアリスのことを思いだしてた」 (i've been remembering [things about] aerith)
「いや……そうじゃない。思いだしたんじゃない。忘れていたんじゃない。そんなのじゃなくて……」 (no, that's not right. i haven't remembered. i haven't forgotten. it's not like that)

the following lines sound like he's talking about what he was thinking

「なんていうか…… エアリスは、そこにいたんだ。いつも、俺たちのそばに」 (how do you put it, aerith was there, by our sides)
「あまり近すぎて、見えなかった。エアリスのしたこと……エアリスの残した言葉……」 (we were too close and couldn't see. what aerith did, the words she left behind)