The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Tina Armstrong]

I'm sorry but what... ?

Tifa didn't know the true Cloud at all. They didn't even hang out together as Children, and she never really noticed Cloud until he mentioned that he was going to leave Nibelhiem to become the next Sephiroth. That meeting by the well was like... 10 mins ? Maybe 5 mins ?
That's not enough time to know somebody.

I'm sorry but what...?
Tifa was the only person alive in the game who knew the real Cloud. If she didn't know him, how could she help him regain his true self in the Lifestream? Why would the creators even bother letting Tifa help him if she didn't know the true Cloud at all?
Right, they were not close as children. But SE have stated many times that they really are childhood friends, so I see no reason to argue against it.

Aerith knew that Cloud was wasn't really being himself, and she knew that the CD 1 Cloud was a fraud and he wasn't being true to himself.

I know. But she still didn't know the real

Spoiler

FUCKING

Cloud, that's the point I was trying to make.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I did say that she sensed it before Tifa found out about it. Granted she didn't know the real Cloud while she was alive, she had sensed that he wasn't acting like himself at times. And just because she died doesn't mean that she can't get to find the real Cloud and love him.

To be honest, anyone with an ounce of common sense, and eyes to watch Cloud freeze up, have seizures, get facts wrong about things he should know about his own life, would alert anybody to the fact he wasn't acting like himself. No mysterious, special powers, necessary.

Maybe Tifa was with Cloud, but she only provided one memory. Cloud was the one who remembered everything else. Technically, Tifa watched Cloud's memories unravel in the Lifestream event. The three of them, Cloud, Aerith and Tifa, watched as memories were shown in Cloud's POV, which Tifa couldn't have had a clue about since it was seen through Cloud's eyes.
Yes, Aerith wished she could have been the one to help Cloud. Sadly, she was dead by that time. She badly wanted to help, so she aided Tifa in taking a walk through Cloud's mind.

[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud’s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

· FFVII – Junon
Falls into the Lifestream. She finds out about the truth of five years ago in Cloud’s spirit world and helps him regain his true self.

Yeah, minimizing Tifa's role in things is not helping your case. It's flat out wrong. She did help, she guided Cloud and gave him the support and courage necessary to see the truth within his own mind, to realize he wasn't a copy. Cloud would not have been able to do that by himself. He was completely shattered internally.

 

[Kobato]

Argue with the word of god, at your own peril. They weren't close friends, but they knew each other, and were still friends. The creators, every single time they reference Tifa, refer to HER as Cloud's, childhood friend. Period.

Tifa "...that's right."
"We lived next to each other."
"But I really didn't know you that well."

They didn't know each other at all, Tifa only started to notice him when she heard that he wanted to become the next Sephiroth.

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 25

No she did not. Did you play FFVII?

No... I just looked at the front cover for hours each day. Good Times. <___<

Tifa "I guess not..." "You were in SOLDIER."

She did.


No. She knew something was very wrong with him. She knew he was not the SOLIDER he said he was at Nibelheim. So yeah.

She knew that something was wrong with him, but she believed that Cloud was a Solider and that they were close childhood friends. And they weren't.

Aerith may have known Cloud was disturbed in the head, but that does NOT mean she knew who he was.

She didn't think that disturbed in the head. Aerith knew that Cloud wasn't being himself. A bit of a difference.

I'm sorry but what...?
Tifa was the only person alive in the game who knew the real Cloud. If she didn't know him, how could she help him regain his true self in the Lifestream? Why would the creators even bother letting Tifa help him if she didn't know the true Cloud at all?
Right, they were not close as children. But SE have stated many times that they really are childhood friends, so I see no reason to argue against it.

Tifa has no clue about Cloud's real identity during the lifestream event. She thinks that the meeting by the well could be a fake memory. If she knew Cloud really good, she would know that the meeting they had by the well really happened.


Tifa "Cloud, what about your other memories?"
(She shakes her head.)
Tifa "No, not memories."
"A memory is something that has to be consciously recalled, right?"
"That's why sometimes it can be mistaken and a different thing......"
(She looks down, into the endless green space.)
Tifa "But it's different from a memory locked deep within your heart......"
"That's why it must be a fake. If he could recall up that memory......"
"That's it! What about some memory that has to do with me?"
(She turns to the Cloud of the well.)
Tifa "I say something and you don't remember it......"
"But you say something, and I remember it, too... Then we'll know that's our memory......"

She had no clue whether the meeting by the water tower occurred or not.

I know. But she still didn't know the real FUCKING Cloud, that's the point I was trying to make.

Chill out bro. It's only a FF7 debate. xD

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tifa "...that's right."
"We lived next to each other."
"But I really didn't know you that well."

They didn't know each other at all, Tifa only started to notice him when she heard that he wanted to become the next Sephiroth.

How do you get "didn't know each other at all" from "didn't know you that well?" What...?

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 25

Yeah, Tifa's romantic interest. So what? That does not mean they were never friends prior to that moment.

[/B]She knew that something was wrong with him, but she believed that Cloud was a Solider and that they were close childhood friends. And they weren't.

They *were* childhood friends, and that denotes some form of closeness. They weren't *best* friends, but they were still friends. Period. Stop trying to argue the matter when every piece of material says otherwise.

And why would she have any reason to doubt he was in SOLDIER? He was as strong as one, and wore the uniform of one. Her knowledge of his problems however, were in the facts he stated, and how he was clearly mentally confused. That's enough. She clearly knew he was not right in the head.

[/B]She didn't think that disturbed in the head. Aerith knew that Cloud wasn't being himself. A bit of a difference.

Again. It's pretty obvious when Cloud's acting mentally imbalanced, and imitating her dead boyfriend and his mannerisms. How would she not know he was not being himself?

Tifa has no clue about Cloud's real identity during the lifestream event. She thinks that the meeting by the well could be a fake memory. If she knew Cloud really good, she would know that the meeting they had by the well really happened.

.....

Tifa: Right, I was wearing these clothes. That's you, too. You were so small
then...... ...and cute. Sephiroth once said... Cloud made up his memories by
listening to my stories... Did you imagine this sky? No, you remembered it.
That night the stars were gorgeous. It was just Cloud and I. We talked at the
well... That's why I continued to believe that you were the real Cloud. I still
believe you're the Cloud from Nibelheim...

This is why I ask if you played the game. Tifa was always sure that Cloud was the real Cloud and not just a fabricated memory. And she DEFINITELY remembered the promise at the well. Are you serious?

Tifa "Cloud, what about your other memories?"
(She shakes her head.)
Tifa "No, not memories."
"A memory is something that has to be consciously recalled, right?"
"That's why sometimes it can be mistaken and a different thing......"
(She looks down, into the endless green space.)
Tifa "But it's different from a memory locked deep within your heart......"
"That's why it must be a fake. If he could recall up that memory......"
"That's it! What about some memory that has to do with me?"
(She turns to the Cloud of the well.)
Tifa "I say something and you don't remember it......"
"But you say something, and I remember it, too... Then we'll know that's our memory......"

She had no clue whether the meeting by the water tower occurred or not.

No, she's making CLOUD remember HIS own memories, and not just rely on her own words. Great job taking her words and encouragement out of context.

 

[Dashell]

Is it possible childhood friends is being used kind of loosely. I mean Tifa says they didn't know each other that well so to me that makes it seem like that term is being used rather loosely.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Is it possible childhood friends is being used kind of loosely. I mean Tifa says they didn't know each other that well so to me that makes it seem like that term is being used rather loosely.

....Yeah, it's being used so loosely that in every instance of Tifa's relation to Cloud, they use "childhood friend." Not acquaintance, not neighbor. But friend.

Hito talked about this before, in that it's NOT an understatement. It's "friend." That's what it translates to. No, they were not "best friends forever and ever." But they were friends. Just normal, child friends. Tifa said they didn't know each other *THAT* well. Not that they didn't know each other.

Will people PLEASE stop misrepresenting the script and canon? Seriously, stop changing the terms and goal posts of a debate. The canon and text is explicitly clear right in front of us. Arguing it is a waste of time.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Tifa has no clue about Cloud's real identity during the lifestream event. She thinks that the meeting by the well could be a fake memory. If she knew Cloud really good, she would know that the meeting they had by the well really happened.

Wat.

Chill out bro. It's only a FF7 debate. xD

I've been saying the same thing several times, bro. It's frustrating.

 

[Dashell]

Will people PLEASE stop misrepresenting the script and canon? Seriously, stop changing the terms and goal posts of a debate. The canon and text is explicitly clear right in front of us. Arguing it is a waste of time.

Okay I'm sorry I'll be good

it's just that... when did the Childhood Friends phase start do you think? Was it after the promise or before?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay I'm sorry I'll be good

it's just that... when did the Childhood Friends phase start do you think? Was it after the promise or before?

I wasn't really directing it at you, tbh.

I think they were always friends. Just normal friends. The attraction Cloud carried for Tifa was one-sided all the way up until he left.

THEN Tifa felt attracted to him, and pined for him.

That's how it went. They weren't close friends. They weren't best friends. They certainly weren't boyfriend and girlfriend. They were just friends who knew each other and were friendly. Don't know why people find that so hard to believe, or try to misrepresent Tifa's line in FFVII. She's clearly only clarifying that they were not best friends.

 

[Dashell]

I know I'm just kind of curious, because I mean there was Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel... and I was under the impression that Cloud was too humiliated to talk to her again until the Promise scene, so I was just wondering if you felt there was some interaction between then or not?

 

[Elisa Maza]

I know I'm just kind of curious, because I mean there was Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel... and I was under the impression that Cloud was too humiliated to talk to her again until the Promise scene, so I was just wondering if you felt there was some interaction between then or not?

Well, Cloud in the well scene says "Come this spring...", so from the night of the promise to the day he left, there has to be at least some months in between, and the Ultimania DOES say that Tifa noticed Cloud when he promised her, so... they interacted a lot more than before during this time? Between the promise night and his leaving, I mean.

 

[Celes Chere]

Tifa didn't know the true Cloud at all.

Woah, woah time out. Tifa DID know the true Cloud. That's why she was the one to help him through his subconcious. She knows him better than any other person, as stated officially. At least, any other woman. True, they weren't as close as children but she still cared about him and they still crushed on one another. They still made a promise, and Cloud still came back to Nibelheim at what, age 15? By then Tifa was STILL waiting for him to return. She could also recall the things that happened in his past, because they happened to her too. Like when she fell off the bridge, and when her Mother died. She even came to realize more about Cloud she didn't before and apologized for it. Cloud's subconcious sent the message to Tifa that Cloud would be so happy to hear that she cared for him in the past. While they have this past, they grow stronger in their present. The promise is something that connects both of them very deeply. You can say it's strong armed or whatever, but it's important to Cloud. He is dedicated to keeping that promise he made with her as children. One of the reasons he joined Shinra was FOR Tifa. He has nothing like that with Aerith. No past, and a barely developing present. The future never got to unravel for them because Aerith passed on. Not saying love can't transcend death, but the point is Aerith never got that chance with Cloud. And I don't think she ever would have if she had lived, because no one can quite get Cloud the way Tifa can.

Welp, that's all I wanted to say.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Woah, woah time out. Tifa DID know the true Cloud. That's why she was the one to help him through his subconcious. She knows him better than any other person, as stated officially. At least, any other woman. True, they weren't as close as children but she still cared about him and they still crushed on one another. They still made a promise, and Cloud still came back to Nibelheim at what, age 15? By then Tifa was STILL waiting for him to return. She could also recall the things that happened in his past, because they happened to her too. Like when she fell off the bridge, and when her Mother died. She even came to realize more about Cloud she didn't before and apologized for it. Cloud's subconcious sent the message to Tifa that Cloud would be so happy to hear that she cared for him in the past. While they have this past, they grow stronger in their present. The promise is something that connects both of them very deeply. You can say it's strong armed or whatever, but it's important to Cloud. He is dedicated to keeping that promise he made with her as children. One of the reasons he joined Shinra was FOR Tifa. He has nothing like that with Aerith. No past, and a barely developing present. The future never got to unravel for them because Aerith passed on. Not saying love can't transcend death, but the point is Aerith never got that chance with Cloud. And I don't think she ever would have if she had lived, because no one can quite get Cloud the way Tifa can.

Welp, that's all I wanted to say.

^ I cried.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And I didn't even notice that stupid macro....

Next person who uses a macro in this thread is banned from this thread, period. I'm serious.

Read the goddamn rules in the OP. Immature, trolly, pointless bullshit like that will not be tolerated, in the least. Act like adults, and leave the 4chan /b humor at the door.

The premise is simple, discuss the LTD, do it respectfully and civilly, and we will have no problem. Don't, and I will bring the hammer of god down as fast the internet will allow.

This is the first, last, and only warning.

 

[Kobato]

How do you get "didn't know each other at all" from "didn't know you that well?" What...?

Because they never really knew each other. Tifa hanged out with her friends and Cloud being the town misfit was always alone, and he was never allowed to enter into the group. They were next door neighbors, so they didn't know each other. Because Tifa didn't notice him till Cloud mentioned that he wanted to be like Sephiroth. Before then, Cloud would look hopelessly as Tifa hanged out with her mates, not able to hang out with them or Tifa. Don't knowing each other well, and basically not all is the same in this case. Because really, they didn't know each other, expect a) they lived next door and b) Cloud had a dim crush on Tifa.

That's not much of a friendship no matter what SE says.


Yeah, Tifa's romantic interest. So what? That does not mean they were never friends prior to that moment.

Did you read the quote at all ?

It said that Tifa didn't give Cloud a single ounce of interest until Cloud spoke out about wanting to become a hero. So yes, it does say that they were never friends at that moment.

Read the quote.


They *were* childhood friends, and that denotes some form of closeness. They weren't *best* friends, but they were still friends. Period. Stop trying to argue the matter when every piece of material says otherwise.

No, they weren't childhood friends. Because Cloud was always excluded from hanging out from Tifa's group, and she didn't really notice Cloud until he said something about joining Solider.

And lol.

Then how come the pieces of material says that Tifa didn't care about Cloud until he wanted to become a hero ?

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

And why would she have any reason to doubt he was in SOLDIER? He was as strong as one, and wore the uniform of one. Her knowledge of his problems however, were in the facts he stated, and how he was clearly mentally confused. That's enough. She clearly knew he was not right in the head.

Tifa was around during the Nibelhiem incident, she should really know that Cloud was just a army grunt, and they only had one meeting together which was shorter than 5 mins. But she didn't. She felt like something was wrong, but she still assumed that Cloud really was a Solider. And you said that Tifa knew the real Cloud but she doesn't. Cloud could wear Chocobo Jockey clothing and say that he was a Chocobo Jockey, if you truly know somebody you should know their true identity.

If Tifa knew Cloud, she would of known that Cloud was just a army grunt and be wtf are you wearing a Solider uniform for ?


Again. It's pretty obvious when Cloud's acting mentally imbalanced, and imitating her dead boyfriend and his mannerisms. How would she not know he was not being himself?

Aerith wasn't around when Cloud fainted during the Mako Reactor, she wasn't around when Cloud faints during the Honey Bee Inn, or Shrina HQ. The only time Cloud looses it in front of her, was AFTER the date that they had together.
She had no idea that Cloud was acting mentally unbalanced, because she was never around when Cloud had a fit.
Not all of CD 1 Cloud is Zack.

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interest” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality. ~page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega



This is why I ask if you played the game. Tifa was always sure that Cloud was the real Cloud and not just a fabricated memory. And she DEFINITELY remembered the promise at the well. Are you serious?

The bit marked in red is not true. Did you read the Tifa quote that I posted before ? The one that you thought that she didn't say, and you thought that I had no knowledge of FF VII whatsoever, even though she DID say it ?

Tifa thought that Cloud was REALLY a Ex- Solider.

No, she's making CLOUD remember HIS own memories, and not just rely on her own words. Great job taking her words and encouragement out of context.

(The screen fades back in and we are back in Cloud's subconscious. The Nibelheim well is no longer visible.)
Tifa "Cloud, what about your other memories?"
(She shakes her head.)
Tifa "No, not memories."
"A memory is something that has to be consciously recalled, right?"
"That's why sometimes it can be mistaken and a different thing......"
(She looks down, into the endless green space.)
Tifa "But it's different from a memory locked deep within your heart......"
"That's why it must be a fake. If he could recall up that memory......"

No. Read the quote again.

Cloud and Tifa are in the Lifestream and they're by the water tower. She says that this memory must be a fake.

 

[Dashell]

Tifa was around during the Nibelhiem incident, she should really know that Cloud was just a army grunt, and they only had one meeting together which was shorter than 5 mins. But she didn't. She felt like something was wrong, but she still assumed that Cloud really was a Solider. And you said that Tifa knew the real Cloud but she doesn't. Cloud could wear Chocobo Jockey clothing and say that he was a Chocobo Jockey, if you truly know somebody you should know their true identity.

Cloud never revealed himself to her during the Nibelheim incident. She didn't even know he was ever there until the Lifestream event. That's what was messing her up, Cloud knew of things that he shouldn't have known.

Cloud and Tifa are in the Lifestream and they're by the water tower. She says that this memory must be a fake.

She wasn't talking about the water tower scene and can I just ask if you could please use quote tags? I'm having a hard time reading your posts.

 

[Kobato]

And I didn't even notice that stupid macro....

Next person who uses a macro in this thread is banned from this thread, period. I'm serious.

Read the goddamn rules in the OP. Immature, trolly, pointless bullshit like that will not be tolerated, in the least. Act like adults, and leave the 4chan /b humor at the door.

Sorry. I didn't mean to use it as a troll thing. It was more of a calm down , please don't take the LTD debate so seriously, It's only a video game, sort of thing xD

Sorry. ) :

Tiff- Cloud didn't care about his promise to her. He was willing to walk out on her and Avalanche because he didn't give a damn at that stage. And yes, SE does say that the coldness that Cloud had, was the true Cloud. So truly, Cloud didn't give a damn about the promise he made to Tifa. And he joined Solider because he wanted Tifa to notice him.
Because Tifa didn't notice him at all, until Cloud said that he wanted to become a hero.


Tifa "You remember now? ...Our promise?"

Cloud "I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep.... the promise."

Tifa "But you got your childhood dream, didn't you? You joined SOLDIER."

Barret "Wait a sec big-time SOLDIER!" "A promise is a promise! Here!!" (He tosses Cloud 1500 Gil.)

Cloud "This is my pay? Don't make me laugh."

Tifa "What? Then you'll...!!"

Cloud "You got the next mission lined up? I'll do it for 3000."


When Tifa mentions the promise, the only thing Cloud cared about was money, and what made him stay in Avalanche was not Tifa or the promise, but more money.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Tiff- Cloud didn't care about his promise to her. He was willing to walk out on her and Avalanche because he didn't give a damn at that stage. And yes, SE does say that the coldness that Cloud had, was the true Cloud. So truly, Cloud didn't give a damn about the promise he made to Tifa. And he joined Solider because he wanted Tifa to notice him.
Because Tifa didn't notice him at all, until Cloud said that he wanted to become a hero.

I don't know what to say about this... Are you reallyreallyreally sure you played the game? I suggest you go and read Cloud's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. It's all about Tifa, and their promise.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because they never really knew each other. Tifa hanged out with her friends and Cloud being the town misfit was always alone, and he was never allowed to enter into the group. They were next door neighbors, so they didn't know each other. Because Tifa didn't notice him till Cloud mentioned that he wanted to be like Sephiroth. Before then, Cloud would look hopelessly as Tifa hanged out with her mates, not able to hang out with them or Tifa. Don't knowing each other well, and basically not all is the same in this case. Because really, they didn't know each other, expect a) they lived next door and b) Cloud had a dim crush on Tifa.

Again, the creators themselves, have listed Cloud and Tifa as friends, several times, QED.

They weren't close friends, but they were friends. Nothing you say negates the possibility of them benig just friends. No, Cloud was NOT part of her close circle of friends, but they were still. Friends.

And stop changing the quote she said, in FFVII. That's twice now. "I really didn't know you that well" is not "didn't know each other." For Christ's sake, stop misrepresenting the material.

...And what is a "dim crush?" Way to go at using a mistranslation. It's "hidden crush."

That's not much of a friendship no matter what SE says.

Glad to know you know more than the creators and their own story. If it doesn't say what I want, just ignore it, hm?

Did you read the quote at all ?

It said that Tifa didn't give Cloud a single ounce of interest until Cloud spoke out about wanting to become a hero. So yes, it does say that they were never friends at that moment.

No...it did not say that. Tifa never said she had no interest in Cloud whatsoever, and the creators CERTAINLY have never said that they were never friends. That's *your* interpretation which is at odds with canon.

[/B]No, they weren't childhood friends. Because Cloud was always excluded from hanging out from Tifa's group, and she didn't really notice Cloud until he said something about joining Solider.

I'm not arguing with you when the canon materials and game proper literally says they were friends. Quit making a strawman of an issue that's not even up for debate. They were friends. F-R-I-E-N-D-S. No matter how many times you claim otherwise, in black and white text, they will always be identified as childhood friends who knew each other in Nibelheim. Cloud not being apart of Tifa's close circle of friends, does not exclude him from ever having been a friend to her at all.

And lol.

Then how come the pieces of material says that Tifa didn't care about Cloud until he wanted to become a hero ?

]
It doesn't. You're interpreting it that way.

[quoteIn those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So "take much notice" means she never knew or was interested in Cloud at all. Do you understand how ridiculously biased you are? That means Tifa didn't know of Cloud that much. Not that she did not know him at all. And considering all prior extant FFVII materials published after that quote clarify that they were friends and Tifa did know of him, your interpretation of that quote is extremely skewed.

If you're gonna cite FFVII material, keep up to date.

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

That literally proves exactly what I said. So you're not even quoting relevant points to your argument now.

[/B]Tifa was around during the Nibelhiem incident, she should really know that Cloud was just a army grunt, and they only had one meeting together which was shorter than 5 mins. But she didn't. She felt like something was wrong, but she still assumed that Cloud really was a Solider. And you said that Tifa knew the real Cloud but she doesn't. Cloud could wear Chocobo Jockey clothing and say that he was a Chocobo Jockey, if you truly know somebody you should know their true identity.

Tifa didn't know Cloud was there because he wore a mask hiding his entire face and hair, after having been gone for years. How else is she supposed to know?

This is why several members have doubted you played the game.

If Tifa knew Cloud, she would of known that Cloud was just a army grunt and be wtf are you wearing a Solider uniform for ?

Uh huh.

[/B]Aerith wasn't around when Cloud fainted during the Mako Reactor, she wasn't around when Cloud faints during the Honey Bee Inn, or Shrina HQ. The only time Cloud looses it in front of her, was AFTER the date that they had together.
She had no idea that Cloud was acting mentally unbalanced, because she was never around when Cloud had a fit.
Not all of CD 1 Cloud is Zack.

I guess Aerith asking to meet the real Cloud on their date was her just trollin' him then, since she already knew him, according to you huh?

And again. Cloud carrying the mannerisms and speech paterns of Zack would be a big hint something's wrong with his identity. And him using Zack's iconic sword.

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interest” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality. ~page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Once again, you throw a quote that has no bearing on this debate, whatsoever.

[/B]The bit marked in red is not true. Did you read the Tifa quote that I posted before ? The one that you thought that she didn't say, and you thought that I had no knowledge of FF VII whatsoever, even though she DID say it ?

Context. Do you know it? That is not her doubting Cloud, that is her making Cloud remember on his own.

This is ridiculous. Jesus.

 

[Dashell]

So truly, Cloud didn't give a damn about the promise he made to Tifa.

It's engraved in his memories, his 10th AU profile says that. That means it's important to him.

EDIT:
Sauce:

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud&#8217;s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the &#8220;promise.&#8221;

So it is most certainly important to him.

Tifa didn't know Cloud was there because he wore a mask hiding his entire face and hair, after having been gone for years. How else is she supposed to know?

This is why several members have doubted you played the game.

He DID take his mask off to move her, but she was unconscious at the time. Maybe she thought Tifa was awake, but... well she wasn't
Also she might be using Last Order as an example... this version of the events didn't actually happen. So yeah... Tifa was unconscious and never saw Cloud.

...And what is a "dim crush?" Way to go at using a mistranslation. It's "hidden crush."

No, it's not, it's "Slight feelings." The word does not at any point mean hidden.

This is ridiculous. Jesus.

Idk, is this necessary?

 

[Celes Chere]

That's not much of a friendship no matter what SE says.

But what SE says is canon. If you disagree, than that's your opinion. But in a debate it's good to go by facts. Anyway, did you read my post at all? Just wondering because I thought I explained things pretty well. :c

No, they weren't childhood friends.

Yes they were. SE SAID SO. That makes it final! xD They knew of one another, Tifa went out specifically to meet him, they talked out by the well and made a promise. That is enough to qualify them as friends even if they weren't as close, they were still friends. In fact if you think THAT is a flimsy standard to set for a friend, replay Crisis Core. Zack calls Tifa a strange girl and when they interact, it's her asking about Cloud and Soldier and yet... her text messages are listed under Zack's 'friends' contact list.

Tiff- Cloud didn't care about his promise to her. He was willing to walk out on her and Avalanche because he didn't give a damn at that stage. And yes, SE does say that the coldness that Cloud had, was the true Cloud. So truly, Cloud didn't give a damn about the promise he made to Tifa. And he joined Solider because he wanted Tifa to notice him.
Because Tifa didn't notice him at all, until Cloud said that he wanted to become a hero.

Yes he did care. Here are some quotes just to prove how much he does care about the promise: (edit: Quex beat me xD)

Compilation Check

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud's mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the "promise".

Quote: text near image of picture in box
If he runs out of strength part way through the story, he will say regretfully that he "couldn't come through on my promise to her".

and here's one about her being his childhood friend and more:

Apart from being Cloud's childhood friend,
she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him. Although she seems spirited and cheerful, she actually has a family-oriented and modest personality, often paying attention to her surroundings.

and

Link to FF7 Series

The only woman who knows Cloud&#8217;s past

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud&#8217;s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim&#8217;s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

Quote: Text near the image of FF7 with Cloud saying &#8220;Za&#8230;.ck&#8230;Zack&#8230;&#8221; and Tifa&#8217;s &#8220;You remember it!&#8221;
Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud&#8217;s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

The point in which you're speaking of where he doesn't quite recall the promise, is when Cloud is not his true self. Of COURSE he won't remember everything, his mind is not his own then.

 

[Dashell]

Okay just to make it clear, apparently the confusion about whether or not Tifa knew cloud was a grunt came from the fact that when the present day Tifa in the Lifestrem says "Cloud you did come!" or whatever when watching the memories, Yoshi/Cloud/Aeris/othernames thought it was the wounded Tifa talking. But I explained to her that the transparent text boxes mean the present day Tifa was talking.

(reference pic:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8523/boxesg.jpg)

So.. yeah it's not that she didn't play the game, she just made a mistake. Not really a big deal.


EDIT
here Yoshi, watch this, this is the scene from Crisis Core:

That should clear that problem

 

[Kobato]

I don't know what to say about this... Are you reallyreallyreally sure you played the game?

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 24
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 25


And yes. I have.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 24
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 25


And yes. I have.

I know this already. I want you to prove that Cloud didn't care about their promise.

 

[Kobato]

Again, the creators themselves, have listed Cloud and Tifa as friends, several times, QED..

The creators says that they are childhood friends. Yes, they lived next door to each other, but they didn't hang out. Which is what I'm trying to point out here.

They weren't close friends, but they were friends. Nothing you say negates the possibility of them benig just friends. No, Cloud was NOT part of her close circle of friends, but they were still. Friends.

What I'm trying to say here, is that they only knew each other without some kind of a distance for a very short period of time.

And stop changing the quote she said, in FFVII. That's twice now. "I really didn't know you that well" is not "didn't know each other." For Christ's sake, stop misrepresenting the material.

Calm down Smooth Criminal. I feel like If a casual member acted that way and not a mod, you'll be issuing out a warning. I'm not changing anything. I said that Tifa and Cloud only knew each other as next neighbors, so really they didn't know each other closely.

...And what is a "dim crush?" Way to go at using a mistranslation. It's "hidden crush."

I'm not using a mistranslation.


Expert: Michael DePaula
Subject: Dim Feelings vs Secret Feelings
Question: QUESTION: Heya, I'm looking at this here:
ƒ~ƒbƒhƒKƒ‹‚É￾o‚Ä‚*‚é‘O‚ɃNƒ‰ƒEƒh‚Í￾A‚Ù‚Ì‚©‚É‘z‚¢‚ðŠñ‚¹‚Ä‚¢‚½‘º‚Ì￾*￾—ƒeƒBƒtƒ@‚É￾uƒ\ƒ‹ƒWƒƒ￾[‚É‚È‚é￾v‚Æ￾錾‚µ

And I've seen a few people arguing about the "‚Ù‚Ì‚©‚É‘z‚¢‚ðŠñ‚¹‚Ä‚¢‚½‘º‚Ì￾*￾—ƒeƒBƒtƒ@‚É" part. Mainly whether or not it's saying Cloud had secret or hidden feelings for Tifa, or whether his feelings were there but just kind of weak. I'm just wondering how you feel it should be translated.

ANSWER: Alison,

I don't know any of the context surrounding these characters, but I would translate ‚Ù‚Ì‚©‚É‘z‚¢‚ðŠñ‚¹‚Ä‚¢‚½‘º‚Ì￾*￾—ƒeƒBƒtƒ@‚É as "...to Tifa, for whom he had had slight feelings..."

Slight, dim, faint...I would rework the wording if I had to translate to make it flow off the tongue, but yes, the part you quoted indicates a slight affection for in the past for this character Tifa, not secret.



Glad to know you know more than the creators and their own story. If it doesn't say what I want, just ignore it, hm?

Ah no. What I meant was I don't know why SE says that Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends, when really they were more people who had a distant relationship at best. What I meant was, they are not close childhood friends, though the creator quotes make it seem that they were.


No...it did not say that. Tifa never said she had no interest in Cloud whatsoever, and the creators CERTAINLY have never said that they were never friends. That's *your* interpretation which is at odds with canon.

Whut ?

It basically says that Tifa had no interest in Cloud until she heard that he was planning to join Solider. Do you read what I post at all ? Really ?


I'm not arguing with you when the canon materials and game proper literally says they were friends. Quit making a strawman of an issue that's not even up for debate. They were friends. F-R-I-E-N-D-S. No matter how many times you claim otherwise, in black and white text, they will always be identified as childhood friends who knew each other in Nibelheim. Cloud not being apart of Tifa's close circle of friends, does not exclude him from ever having been a friend to her at all.


I'm not making a strawman of a issue xD Shouldn't it be straw-woman in my case ? Anyways xD
But they weren't friends, Tifa- for the 100 th time in a row. Took no interest in Cloud, until he mentioned his ambition to her. If they became friends at any time, it would be during the water tower scene, which only lasts for a short period of time. It doesn't matter if they were ''friends '' because their friendship, if any, was extremely short lived.



[quote[/FONT][/COLOR]In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So "take much notice" means she never knew or was interested in Cloud at all. Do you understand how ridiculously biased you are? That means Tifa didn't know of Cloud that much. Not that she did not know him at all. And considering all prior extant FFVII materials published after that quote clarify that they were friends and Tifa did know of him, your interpretation of that quote is extremely skewed.


What what what ? Do you only read what you want to read ?

It basically says "In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire ".

It basically says, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud, and she was only interested in Cloud being her hero to satisfy her childish princess desire.

Can you read ? At all ?

Tifa didn't know Cloud was there because he wore a mask hiding his entire face and hair, after having been gone for years. How else is she supposed to know?

This is why several members have doubted you played the game.

Tifa recognized Cloud when he stopped her from entering the Mako reactor. She jumps, like she did when she recognized when Cloud was in drag.


I guess Aerith asking to meet the real Cloud on their date was her just trollin' him then, since she already knew him, according to you huh?

Do you think that Cloud is a mind- reader or something ? He doesn't know what Aerith is thinking. Aerith asks Cloud for the date because she wanted to spend time with him and express her feelings to Cloud, without the mission to revenge Sephiroth and Shrina getting in the way. She wasn't ''trolling Cloud '' she wanted to express to Cloud how she felt.

And again. Cloud carrying the mannerisms and speech paterns of Zack would be a big hint something's wrong with his identity. And him using Zack's iconic sword.

Did you read the quote I posted ? It said that not everything about Cloud is Zack. You know that people can be completely different but be alike from somebody else right ?


Once again, you throw a quote that has no bearing on this debate, whatsoever.

Are you really with this debate at all ? You said that Aerith knew Cloud because he was completely like Zack. And he wasn't. So stop making up BS.

Context. Do you know it? That is not her doubting Cloud, that is her making Cloud remember on his own.

Yes she wanted to help Cloud remember on his own. But she still thinks that the well memory is fake. If you actually read to what I'm typing.

This is ridiculous. Jesus. I'm sorry but that is completely rude.