The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Roger]

That cot supporting Cloud when Marlene was still cockblocking him stretched my imagination already, Barret DID not sleep on that thing. It would be a pancake if he did.

 

[Marle]

The thread lives. And is on topic. Good stuff.

So, being a biased Cloti shipper, logically, you can all conclude that I like to believe they share a room and hell, even a bed. CoT makes it a bit iffy though, what with the whole Cloud's office/Cloud's room stuff and I can see why some would argue that it isn't possible, especially considering how these two act as a couple.

But here's my two cents;

These two, believe it or not, are pretty fucking comfortable with each other, whether they share a room or a bed or nothing at all. They both decided to live together. Under the same roof. And before Cloud went all screwy again in AC, I believe they were very happy. But the whole point with Cloud and Tifa is the lack of the necessity for words. So no, SE isn't just going to write a story and say "Cloud embraced Tifa tightly in his arms" because, face it, that just sounds like a really bad fanfiction.

The lack of words in their relationship, their lack of public displays of affection is exactly why I like these two so much. I don't need to read: "Cloud and Tifa shared a room and bed like lovers" to get the message. I just need to read the scene where Tifa questions Cloud of his love for her and I get it. Whether or not they share a room, Cloud still doesn't have a problem with her presence there at night. Tifa isn't afraid to be there, either. The Cloud and Tifa from FF7 might have been a bit more timid and shy but that scene shows how much these two have grown as a couple.

And fine, maybe I'm looking into it too much because of my Cloti biasness, but I honestly don't care if it comes out that they don't share a bed or a room. It doesn't affect their relationship in my mind because clearly, they're still very comfortable around each other if that conversation can occur in that environment so naturally. They still live together, they still raise a family together and they clearly still want to be with each other. That's still a hell of a lot of commitment to me.

Besides, we all know they be bumpin' uglies anyways. It just means Tifa has snuck into Cloud's bed a few times. >D

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

He did have to cover two years in what, 40 pages?

>enough time to mention cloud needs to be taught the names of vegetables
>not enough time to cement something that would be important for understanding the exact nature of cloud and tifa's relationship
...

We do, however, have evidence that the room we see in AC/C with the bed is not Cloud's sleeping quarters, but his office. It's called that on several occasions. Never his bedroom. The closest we've ever heard to this is 'go drink in your room,' but I don't put much stock in this, since my mother has said the same to my father in the past and they do share a bed. We have evidence that Cloud is absolutely and entirely comfortable with Tifa being in his room watching him sleep, so much so he does not so much as raise an eyebrow at it, and can fall back to sleep immediately. We have it on 'word of writer' that Cloud and Tifa have a future together, and where they belong is with each other.
I spoke of logic leaps earlier. I ask you this- is it a large leap in logic for a man and a woman, even those who are somewhat introverted, to share a bed when they are in a relationship?

'My parents used to tell each other to go to their room therefore that is what's happening here!'

I'm sorry, no, anecdotal evidence does not give evidence in this situation. When someone says 'Go drink in your room' I tend to assume that they have their own room.

And ryu, you don't need to tell me all this junk about Cloud and Tifa's relationship cause I do realize it. This doesn't change the fact they were having some rough patches together along with the good patches and that given what we are told about the living situation, I don't think it's terribly likely that they sleep in the same bed. Cloud is comfortable around Tifa, yes, but that doesn't mean he's sleeping in the same bed as her at the point in time of CoT.

Which CoT very specifically makes clear is not how that scene went down

It gives a sentence as to what went down. 'Tifa waited until Cloud fell asleep and then asked him some shit'. As much as some people complain that if they don't sleep together this obviously makes her a creepy stalker, it could have just been she waited until it was ridiculously late at night and there would be no way he wouldn't be asleep.

The start of Cloud and Tifa's sexual relationship was given all the attention SE was comfortable giving it back in FFVII. Cloud and Tifa being more then friends is something of given, the tenure where someone else was sleeping in Tifa's bed is what bared noting.

so basically someone else sleeping in Tifa's bed=Cloud had been sleeping with her prior? Seriously?

Yes, we only know that Cloud's room was turned into an office as opposed to what was before, that the cot that was in there doesn't have so much as a matress, as opposed to anything and everything else in their full-furnished lives, that from wherever Cloud was sleeping Tifa was able to be close enough to him to monitor his breathing efficiently enough to tell when sleep started

what. no, she just made certain cloud was asleep, and then he was making the sounds of a sleeping person. I don't think this means she is capable of monitoring his goddamn breathing to ensure he's asleep i am just.

okay I'm going to sit over here until my weirded out face goes away, excuse me.

 

[Roger]

It gives a sentence as to what went down. 'Tifa waited until Cloud fell asleep and then asked him some shit'. As much as some people complain that if they don't sleep together this obviously makes her a creepy stalker, it could have just been she waited until it was ridiculously late at night and there would be no way he wouldn't be asleep.

YOU'RE THE ONE that was all "Tifa is waaaaay too shy to think that just because they were doing each other before means they'd still be doing each other now." Her being too uncomfortable to be assumed not to just go ahead and invade a person's privacy without permissions only works when it helps your argument?

so basically someone else sleeping in Tifa's bed=Cloud had been sleeping with her prior? Seriously?

No, them sleeping together=them sleeping together. Which had already been going on in FFVII, it's you that went from "Marlene doesn't like being alone at night" to "Cloud and Tifa broke up".

what. no, she just made certain cloud was asleep, and then he was making the sounds of a sleeping person. I don't think this means she is capable of monitoring his goddamn breathing to ensure he's asleep i am just.

okay I'm going to sit over here until my weirded out face goes away, excuse me.

She made certain he was sleeping in whatever way you feel in plausible.

I'm just saying, it didn't sound like she was doing from another part of the house. Or that she meant "from in my own room" when she said she could've waited for him to respond all night after he had gone back to sleep.

Look, I'm not saying SE wasn't needlessly vague. Trust me, we've been complaining about that in this thread for years. That doesn't make them ending their relationship after FFVII more plausible, much less the default assumption until outright stated otherwise.

 

[Fighter]

The way this has been developing over time I bet at some point Nojima will babble, "Originally in this scene I had Cloud and Tifa spooning naked. But Nomura thought it was too strong and people should think for themselves."

You know like the certain used to be "NO hint of seckz whatsoeverz!!1!" Highwind scene.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

YOU'RE THE ONE that was all "Tifa is waaaaay too shy to think that just because they were doing each other before means they'd still be doing each other now." Her being too uncomfortable to be assumed not to just go ahead and invade a person's privacy without permissions only works when it helps your argument?

no, i didn't say that. maybe stop arguing a strawman? I said she wasn't secure enough in her relationship with Cloud to ask him to share a bed with her. Chill out, bro.

No, them sleeping together=them sleeping together. Which had already been going on in FFVII, it's you that went from "Marlene doesn't like being alone at night" to "Cloud and Tifa broke up".

Dude, your whole argument is 'if cloud and tifa aren't sleeping together, they've clearly broken up!' I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds before I point it out.

And moreover since apparently it needs being said, I do like Cloti and I do agree, that is how it all ends up. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring the rough patches they have had and saying 'oh no, they were still being snuggly and cuddly when all the arguments happened!'

The way this has been developing over time I bet at some point Nojima will babble, "Originally in this scene I had Cloud and Tifa spooning naked. But Nomura thought it was too strong and people should think for themselves."

You know like the certain used to be "NO hint of seckz whatsoeverz!!1!" Highwind scene.

idk why people are arguing 'THEY TOTALLY HAD SEX' since i already said 'they had sex but that doesn't make them 100% comfortable in the state of their relationship.

 

[Fighter]

idk why people are arguing 'THEY TOTALLY HAD SEX' since i already said 'they had sex but that doesn't make them 100% comfortable in the state of their relationship.

You seem to misunderstand my post.

 

[Roger]

no, i didn't say that. maybe stop arguing a strawman? I said she wasn't secure enough in her relationship with Cloud to ask him to share a bed with her. Chill out, bro.


Dude, your whole argument is 'if cloud and tifa aren't sleeping together, they've clearly broken up!' I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds before I point it out.

And moreover since apparently it needs being said, I do like Cloti and I do agree, that is how it all ends up. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring the rough patches they have had and saying 'oh no, they were still being snuggly and cuddly when all the arguments happened!'


idk why people are arguing 'THEY TOTALLY HAD SEX' since i already said 'they had sex but that doesn't make them 100% comfortable in the state of their relationship.

Let's see, where are we now. They're in a relationship, they're having sex, they live together, they adopted a child together but them sleeping in same bed/room. WHOA back off there, bub. That's waaay too assuming, Tifa and Cloud's relationship is still way to casual for that to be remotely plausible.

 

[AerithLives]

Its a hard one. Especially since Cloud is so emotionally retarded that you just have no idea how he really feels on the inside. Its clear Tifa have feelings for him. Up until "on the way to a smile" I just assumed Aeris liked Cloud because he reminded her of Zack and was also curious of his mystery and how safe he made her feel. Now we know Aeris liked Cloud a whole lot more than Zack and there was more too it. I guess this is all down to Cloud. Square Enix are pushing towards there being feelings for Tifa but you know what they are like. They could just change it 180 the next time they add a bit of story line. I dont know how much longer they are going to drag this all on. I guess if they do finally make a scene where Cloud and Tifa confess their undying love then Final Fantasy 7 would never be the same again. Most people, including me will probably end up hating it too though im dying to know what happens. I guess thats the beauty of FF7. The mystery and tragedy.
I think Cloud loves Tifa back. How could he not? He is just a very broken man.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Let's see, where are we now. They're in a relationship, they're having sex, they live together, they adopted a child together but them sleeping in same bed/room. WHOA back off there, bub. That's waaay too assuming, Tifa and Cloud's relationship is still way to casual for that to be remotely plausible.

Well when you put it that way, obviously they must sleep in the same bed!

Except no, as their relationship begins they do have a few rough patches, they don't adopt kids right away, and both can be physically distant from the other. Why don't you come back when you can formulate an actual argument as to why they are sleeping in the same bed during CoT, hmm?

 

[AerithLives]

There is no evidence to show they have had sex. If there is then i wanna see it...literally

 

[Ⓐaron]

The scene under the Highwind is basically confirmed by the creators to have led up to the consummation of their relationship (which, obviously, wasn't shown). There's a lot more details someone else can go through as I don't remember all of them, but it was very explicitly referred to as a risqué scene, and it was also implied to have been "toned down" (as opposed to having the sex completely pruned out) from a scene that basically said they had sex in a chocobo stable. I can't remember where the interviews were, but they're probably on this site somewhere.

edit: http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...o-13-of-the-ffvii-10th-anniversary-ultimania/

Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.

- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.

Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.

Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs).

I think there was more but I can't remember which interview it was in.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That cot supporting Cloud when Marlene was still cockblocking him stretched my imagination already, Barret DID not sleep on that thing. It would be a pancake if he did.

I did say 'because he's insane' in my little drabble.

>enough time to mention cloud needs to be taught the names of vegetables
>not enough time to cement something that would be important for understanding the exact nature of cloud and tifa's relationship
...

Not enough time to add in a pointless scene about them discussing purchasing furniture, which is what you suggested. I find that 'cementing' the exact nature would have been redundant, given they are already in the living together and having sex together phases and are moving on to the taking care of children phase of a relationship. Them sharing a bed or not is actually kinda irrelevant to figuring out where they are, and, as mentioned, is kinda the general assumption nowadays when a man and a woman with a relationship cohabitate.

'My parents used to tell each other to go to their room therefore that is what's happening here!'

I'm sorry, no, anecdotal evidence does not give evidence in this situation. When someone says 'Go drink in your room' I tend to assume that they have their own room.

Nein. My mother told my father to go to his room, therefore it is possible, therefore we cannot use the line in novella to conclude 'Cloud's room' mentioned must refer to his sleeping quarters or sleeping quarters he has all by his lonesome, especially as the room generally referred to as 'his' is consistently called his office, and the Japanese line didn't actually have 'your' in it.
My point is not to use the anecdotal evidence to prove anything but the fact that it's possible for 'your room' not to be your sleeping quarters. Before I moved, my roommates shared a bed. 'His room' was the office across the hall. Same scenario could apply here.

And ryu, you don't need to tell me all this junk about Cloud and Tifa's relationship cause I do realize it. This doesn't change the fact they were having some rough patches together along with the good patches and that given what we are told about the living situation, I don't think it's terribly likely that they sleep in the same bed. Cloud is comfortable around Tifa, yes, but that doesn't mean he's sleeping in the same bed as her at the point in time of CoT.

I'm not telling you because I don't think you know. I want to paint the full picture to make sure it's all out on the table and fresh in your mind when I ask the question. And why is it so unlikely that they would? Forget momentarily if they did or not, why is it unlikely, given that they begin the period on a high note, in positive spirits, decide to purchase and use a shared bed?

It gives a sentence as to what went down. 'Tifa waited until Cloud fell asleep and then asked him some shit'. As much as some people complain that if they don't sleep together this obviously makes her a creepy stalker, it could have just been she waited until it was ridiculously late at night and there would be no way he wouldn't be asleep.

That's generally the exact scenario people describe when they make the creepy stalker comparison, though. Unless she's absolutely trusted to be in there at all times, which makes the question of whether they officially share a bed again moot.

so basically someone else sleeping in Tifa's bed=Cloud had been sleeping with her prior? Seriously?

I'm gonna respond to this just to note that you and Misato seem to be strawmanning the hell out of each other with this line of arguments, whether intentionally or not. She's not arguing that if they're not sleeping together they're broken up, she seems to think that's your argument, though I'm not entirely sure as to why.

what. no, she just made certain cloud was asleep, and then he was making the sounds of a sleeping person. I don't think this means she is capable of monitoring his goddamn breathing to ensure he's asleep i am just.

Well, going by your logic earlier, we had enough time to establish Cloud doesn't know the names of veggies, but not enough time to establish that he snores.

There is no evidence to show they have had sex. If there is then i wanna see it...literally

U10 P12, U20 'For the one I love' page. QED.

And Aaron's already provided the interview.

Oh, and because it amuses me to add these, another thing we only have circumstantial evidence for, a BATHROOM in the 7th heaven.

 

[Roger]

Well when you put it that way, obviously they must sleep in the same bed!

Except no, as their relationship begins they do have a few rough patches, they don't adopt kids right away, and both can be physically distant from the other. Why don't you come back when you can formulate an actual argument as to why they are sleeping in the same bed during CoT, hmm?

The whole discussion about the scene which, to anyone but the most ridicously sceptical looks like a conversation between Tifa and Cloud in bed together, doesn't count? I could say the same to you. I'm sorry, but "they have difficulties during CoT, therefore I declare sharing a bed being the one and only intimacy they couldn't possibly deem themselves ready for." doesn't do it for me.

Seriously WHY NOT. I am missing the gigantic problem with the idea of them sharing a bed in the first place.

 

[Wolfmania]

The fact Cloud was not the least bit startled by Tifa being very close to him and asking an unknow question in a whisper is also a pretty big indication.

Seriously, unless you find reasons not to believe they weren't in the same bed, I'd think the creator's clearly intended as much.

Also, slightly off-topic, do we have 20th Anniversary Ultimania Translations?

Or does someone have? Like, the whole thing?

 

[AerithLives]

I find this REALLY hard to believe. Its just so out of character for Cloud (he is so mentally confused he probably couldnt get it up anyway, haha!!). It also doesnt really seem like they have had sex in the story line. Especially since nothing even close has been mentioned in the story line before or since. Nothing close has ever happened either. Was it just a total one off which they never mentioned again?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

The whole discussion about the scene which, to anyone but the most ridicously sceptical looks like a conversation between Tifa and Cloud in bed together, doesn't count? I could say the same to you. I'm sorry, but "they have difficulties during CoT, therefore I declare sharing a bed being the one and only intimacy they couldn't possibly deem themselves ready for." doesn't do it for me.

Seriously WHY NOT. I am missing the gigantic problem with the idea of them sharing a bed in the first place.

>shy personalities
>insecure girl
>arguments in CoT with infrequent good times
>cloud away long enough that tifa just reasons it as 'he's just on a delivery'

idk it doesn't sound like a couple who sleeps in the same bed to me.

 

[ForceStealer]

They are at least in the same room. Either they I Love Lucy it, or they're in the same bed. But ANY other option just makes Tifa a creeper, standing over him while he sleeps.

 

[crack]

Cloud and Tifa sharing a bed is just all speculation. I don't really see them being intimate enough to share a bed together, at least not before AC. But whether or not they did doesn't prove anything anyway, because they're still together in the end.

And sharing a bed while Cloud was acting mopey was probably a very uncomfortable experience. They probably slept on the edge of the bed and stared at their side of the wall. And couldn't sleep knowing there were a lot of unsaid things between the two of them. Cloud probably left really early all the time, thinking Tifa was asleep. But as soon as he revved up Fenrir and left, Tifa probably gets up and watches him sadly from a window as he drives away.

 

[AerithLives]

Well he sleeps in the church in ACC. Though before that in Case of Tifa they share a bed. Maybe they tried it to bring them closer and it didnt work.

 

[Fighter]

Is it me or do people view the FF7 world more prudish than it was? If they are a couple then they do what couples do, it's a straightforward assumption that doesn't need any extra evidence beyond that they confessed their feelings for each other (which is fact) and want to stay together (also fact). Not to mention the Highwind scene is fairly explicit (despite years of denial).

 

[OneWingedDemon]

SE didn't shy away from a whorehouse, beastiality, homosexuality, crossdressing, going on dates with underage ninjas, being accused of drooling after a child, implied sex scenes, stealing used underwear, etc.

It's pretty much why we can't have a remake :\

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Well he sleeps in the church in ACC. Though before that in Case of Tifa they share a bed. Maybe they tried it to bring them closer and it didnt work.

uh this is never said or anything? Certainly it's speculated they shared a bed, but as far as actual evidence goes, it's mostly just asserted by those who feel Tifa if she isn't sharing a bed with Cloud is a total creeper or something.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

it's mostly just asserted by those who feel Tifa if she isn't sharing a bed with Cloud is a total creeper or something.

It's asserted, I think, because it makes the most sense.

You have two people in love with other whose feelings have already been confirmed both on screen and verbally by the staff. Not only that, they've already done the deed under the Highwind, or at least been intimate with each other assuming you're still in denial. NOT sleeping together would be weird in this case, worthy of special mention.

Two people romantically linked and living under the same roof, as parents to children, do not need to explain to me that the couple is sleeping in the same room. IF they are not, THEN they do, because that would be an anomaly. Something CoT does not do precisely because they do not mean for the audience to come near any such conclusion.

Anyone can come up with any number of possibilities as to why Cloud and Tifa may sleep apart, but the the mere existence of said possibility does not mean that it is in any way probable. The furniture and sleeping arrangements are not specifically addressed because they are not noteworthy. It would be redundant. This does not signify there is something wrong.

It is the conclusion that Cloud and Tifa ARE sleeping apart that requires mental gymnastics. Why would Cloud and Tifa not feel ready to sleep together when they feel ready to proclaim their love for each other, move in together, raise kids together, etc? They are ready to be a couple, sleep together....but not be ready to sleep together again (while still being a couple)? That makes so little sense.

For a writer, pointing out whether Tifa is waiting outside the room or on her own bed is worthy of mention, btw. Without any mention, Tifa waits for Cloud to sleep where? In a vacuum? The number of possibilities become endless. The essentials of establishing a picture are not there. If Tifa is outside the room, then waiting for Cloud and going inside and asking him and waiting there some more are too many steps and actions to be skipped. Especially when it would be important in telling us why this couple is deviating from what we know as the norm.

 

[Wolfmania]

Also slightly off topic: did Cloud and Tifa legally adopt Denzel or something?

I assumed he just unformally lived in the familiy as the son, but is he formally that?