I don't it would be the same. I didn't see Cloud having interactions with Yuffie, Vincent or Barret that would warrant the same kind of lines/reactions from Cloud.
Zack, then. Use Zack. Does THAT warrant the same reaction? I, for one, think most, if not all of his teammates would warrant such a response. With the obvious exception of Cait Siths.
And just a thought, since SE wanted Aerith's death to have a great impact on the players, Cloud's line might have been meant to add to the emotional value of the scene. It would have worked even if SE toned down the drama, but they made it more dramatic and painful. Makes me think it was because Aerith was someone special to Cloud, and one who had a special bond with the blonde.
Yeah, but so's Zack. Toss ZACK in there, and see if you think it comes across as romantic or even half as emotional as Cloud's reaction in CC or the OG.
One of my? I don't get this sentence. Well I was just pointing out that it's harder to reply in a forum since it's to many people. Haha.
One of me. My point is that at one time, I was on the other end of the stick. Then I grabbed said stick and began savaging with it.
I noticed that a few posts back. :p
Good.
He chose it as well. He perceived it to be necessary to he chose to stay and be alone.
But he did not WANT TO BE alone is my point.
So nodding on the phone has become a habit of yours?
No. Nodding when I agree or am listening is a habit. This habit continues even when no one can SEE these visual cues.
Still, including the reference to the deviation has its merit. If not, they could have easily removed the references and just let the reader find the page for himself. And would SE just really point out that Cloud and Tifa were in love in a few sentences? They've been quiet about the LTD, so why make a stand now?
THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUIET.
At most, you have a quote from 2K2 with Nomura going 'Idunno, LOL' but then in 2K5 they were living together and raising kids together. in 2k6 in the RF, Tifa and Cloud have a future together. She knows him all to well. She's someone's beloved. She and Cloud living together is where they belong. In the U10 she and Cloud form a family together. Their family. A family in which she is the mother. A family in which she, the mother, thinks of Cloud as the father. Nojima said he tried not to let his feelings about love and marriage influence him in writing CoT, but laughed to indicate he didn't do that good a job. The High Highwind scene is ALWAYS the one that gets attention. IT is one of the notable scenes of Final Fantasy Seven. It has been called adult, mature and contains risque dialogue in the form of 'words aren't the only way.' It has been said in at least eight locations across at least three books that Cloud and Tifa confirm their matching feelings that night and move in together afterwards.
Cloud and Tifa are their own keyword in the Crisis Core Ultimania. Cloud and Tifa are constantly linked together. Square Enix has not been quiet or shy about pushing the two together. Even in Dissidia, they have it that Cloud is fighting for Tifa.
And again, Square Enix notes deviations for things even when what is canon is blatantly obvious. A deviation appearing does not render the continuity uncertain. Going 'If you brought vincent to the sister ray' in one book does not invalidate 'I was at the sister ray' in DoC.
Hell, the U10 lists a 'if Vince was at the ray' I think, and it's POST DoC.
I don't think Cloud cared enough for Red to mention his smile or laughter, don't you think? And he said that Aerith would no longer smile, and all the other parts, which is saying that he'll miss (and he wants) those moments IMO.
"Alas poor Yorick, I knew him, Horatio. A man of most infinite Jest. How he bore me on his back a thousand times!"
Hamlet was macking on Yorick. Noted. Crude, yes, but that is what your argument boils down to. He liked her, he'll miss things about her now that she's dead, it must be romance.
Hell, at least hamlet mentioned kissing Yorick on the lips.
I don't see Sephiroth's connection there. Before Aerith was stabbed, Cloud managed to get Sephiroth out of his head. Cloud's hands tingling, his eyes burning-they were all Cloud, not Sephiroth's exerted influence.
Cloud managed to fight Sephiroth's will. He did not get Sephiroth out of his head. Sephiroth had an inroad to Cloud on a cellular level. The eyes burning, the the tingling hands, all could be symptoms of his fighting Sephy's control. Especially as he has these same symptoms in War of the Lions and blames Sephiroth for them.
Not much. Only that Tifa's getting way jealous over the 'dead woman' who's only a friend.
Who said anything about jealous? Tifa can be quite reasonably concerned about Cloud focusing overmuch on the death of a friend whom he felt complicit in without need for it to be jealousy.
How did she get to look? The first time I think she was enlightened with who Cloud really is was during the Lifestream event. I've never read anywhere else how she got into a look into his subconscious. On another note, where was it mentioned that Cloud opened up only to Tifa? And I would think Aerith knows the guy as well as Tifa.
Tifa got to look at Cloud when he was just plain Cloud. She got to walk around in his noggin in the lifestream. The Prologue book for AC stated that Cloud first ever opened his heart to Tifa, but that during AC, he had closed it 'even to her.'
FF7 itself. Well, as far as I know. I haven't encountered anyone who actually provided me with a scene in FF7 where Cloud and Tifa were shown to be close even from their childhood. The only part where Cloud and Tifa were friendly (as far as I've seen) was that HW scene. That's the most I've seen where Cloud opened up to Tifa.
We have seen, all told- about 10 minutes of their childhood from before Cloud left. Of 14 years, we have 10 minutes.
Other scenes in which they are close or how important they are is stressed are the Well scene- which KEEPS COMING UP because SE wants you to know that 'IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, HINT HINT. WE ARE BEING SUBTLE.' The Nibelheim massacre in which he gently takes her body, moves her to safely, and strokes her cheek, when Cloud loses his gibbets he says only Tifa's opinion matters, he apologizes for not being the real Cloud, and hopes she finds the real Cloud someday. Then there's them having no one else to fight for, Cloud fighting for his very personal memory, etc. etc. Seriously. Go play the game. It helps.
Uh, no. His awkwardness can also lead to strain. He doesn't know how to handle other people well, especially in conversations. Like the way his relationship was strained with Marlene.
Irrelevant. That's not his HAPPINESS leading to strain, but his awkwardness.
Then tell SE to get their English translations right. Haha. You seem to know more than the creators and official translations and translators of AC/ACC.
I don't have to match lip flaps. In any case, Aerith's English Line has much the same tone, it's just phrased with the question first to match der flapptyflaps.
She can't exactly stay, can she? She wanted to personally tell Cloud that things were all right. She wanted Cloud to see that he had nothing to worry about. And she did this before she returned to the Lifestream, not as a goodbye, but a reassurance before she went back to the world of the dead.
I'm leaving and I probably can't come back, so I want to tell you things'll be fine and this is in no way, shape, or form a goodbye?
BUH? Seriously, how is there no element of goodbye in doing it while leaving for the afterlife?
Zack is a different case, since he isn't really a Cetra. Aerith finds it easy to make her presence somewhat known in the world of the living, whereas we don't have a clue as to how Zack did what he did.
We could say that Aerith helped Zack talk to Cloud, just like how she helped Tifa get into Cloud's mind as said in MotP.
So, then she brought Zack to the church for a reason, then. And it was not intended as a romantic meeting, since SHE brought the extra man. Unless she's kinky like that. Would NOT put it past her.
It's a farewell. Farewells are only temporary. Don't you wave or salute when you say farewell to your friends? Aerith didn't make the gesture. She merely walked to the light. No indication of a goodbye. We could also say that Zack's salute was something connected to SOLDIER.
Now we're playing semantics. You agree that they were leaving. Heading somewhere else. Gestures and comments are made as they leave. But it's not a goodbye. You must have a very peculiar definition of goodbye.
Incidentally, unless Cetra Goo is somehow special, Aerith's heritage won't help her in the afterlife, though her philosophy and will might.
So it's not about his friends being there. It's about him realizing he wasn't alone anymore, that he could forgive himself, and that no one was really blaming him, especially the flower girl.
Knowing that the entity you have psychologically cast as the symbol of your failures does not blame you would be a load off, yes.
But no, it's about Cloud realizing he doesn't need to feel GUILTY, which is why the wolf vanishes, and why he isn't alone any longer. Because the guilt isn't acting as a barrier to that.
The Church was where Cloud met Aerith, it was where Aerith's flowers lay-it could be interpreted that Cloud felt Aerith's presence the strongest there. Since he was looking for her, that's the perfect place to stay/live in. And I was also saying that Aerith managed to become physically present to Cloud after he was healed, in the Church, where everyone else were. SE gave that hint before Cloud faced off with the SHM.
On another note. There was no exact time in the passage that says when he figured that out. It said the place where he awakens is his Promised Land. Not the time when he awakens, or not the time when he sees his friends. It was the place itself-the Church.
The promised land is the place where you are happy.
Cloud was not happy prior to this scene.
It is his promised land when he awakens. Some THING has changed to allow Cloud to be happy. What has changed is Cloud. His guiltwolf is gone. He can be happy
And, the passage didn't even say that the Church had just become his Promised Land. It could be thought that Cloud had always thought of the Church as his PL which is why the intro of that passage mentioned it.
By the definition of what the promised land is, the church could not have previously been his promised land, as it was not making him happy nor where was it where he was happy. Elsewhere, it is established that Cloud's family makes him happy but it also feeds his guilt. Absolved of guilt, Cloud awakens to his promised land where his family- again, noted elsewhere as being the source of an ever increasing happiness- is emphasized. Sure, they might not be why- it could be the sheer relief of being cured and free of guilt- but they, as noted sources of happiness, are far more plausible than dead people he's not aware of yet.
In short, if you aren't happy, it's not your promised land. Cloud wasn't happy in the church before waking up, so it was not at that time his promised land.
Incidentally, noting that it is where her presence is most felt leads me into a new question- what do you think of Cloud's moving Buster to the church and planting flowers at Zack's grave?
That was my interpretation since I couldn't think of another way for Cloud to have gotten there. Let us take in mind what the girl had said, "It's like she said: 'Wait here, and Cloud will come back'". Aerith told them where they might find Cloud again. How can she tell them that if she didn't have an inkling as to where Cloud would end up after he was healed?
You couldn't think of Cloud being picked up by friends and dropped into the pool? And 'come back' couldn't have been used in the 'he'll come back to life/ consciousness/ clothedness' sense?
How did Sephiroth try that with Tifa then? The lines where he was taunting her? Did he try to kill her off like he did Aerith? Enlighten me please.
When he got Tifa to admit to Cloud that as far as she knew, he was not at the nibelheim massacre. That his memories were wrong. That he was not who he thought he was. Tifa was Cloud's rock. Sephiroth used her to twist the truth into making Cloud think he was a lab grown speciment, finally destroying his sense of self.
Cloud didn't seem like one who paid attention to those kind of things, did he? And no one in the FF7 world changes their get-up everyday. Why the need for a closet? The bathroom must have been in a separate section, not one which is connected to just one room.
Egads. At least cartoons have the decency to mock the 'one outfit, ever' with costumes full of perfectly identical getups. Cloud, realistically, must have at least a few sets of clothing. He must, therefore, have a place to store this clothing.
I'm not familiar with that. And I don't really remember any FF game which paid attention to toiletries.
That's because they are games and rarely is proper grooming entertaining in a game. But there's games and then there's world building. ShinRa tower had several bathrooms. Houses without bathrooms are bad houses.
Wow. You'd let someone who you've only been with for a while watch you sleep and not let those whom you've been with since the day you first breathed air do the same? Not even the mother who carried you for nine excruciating months inside her body? Wow, dude, that's harsh. Mothers have the right to do that too you know. Especially when you're down and she cares.
With my mother it comes of as cloying and overprotective. With my brothers it would be creepy and suspicious and I'd wonder what they'd been doing. With my father just plain rude. Not so with my girlfriend.
Getting to watch me sleep is its own special class.
No, he didn't think that. He believed that. He needed that. Nojima himself said so. He believed that he was responsible for Aerith's death and so needed her forgiveness.
What's the difference?
When you're always given what aid you want or needed immediately, there's no room for growth/maturation/development.
When you have the power to render aid to the dying that results in them not dying and do not do so, especially over a great period of time and with a great number of people, you have no conscience. Geostigma was an epidemic. Aerith has the cure. She's either unable or unwilling to share. A is by far the superior choice since B makes her into an outright monster.
That's why I said while the events of AC/C was happening. Did I not make myself clear there?
Aerith's opinion and abilities during the movie are unlikely to drastically change from what they were leading up to the movie.
Aerith wanted to, but was unable. Limited power, but with compassion. Much better than the opposite alternative.
oh. That. Well, that's your belief, not mine. Didn't you act that way, or somehow similar when you were a teen?
Cloud isn't a teenager after the events of FF7. This is the period in which he is described as acting like one. I reiterate that I disagree with this. You indicated that you think it was warranted.
I thought Tifa bought the rings? Oh well. By jewelries, we're talking about the Wolf rings? Barret owns one too, I guess? And Cloud gives his away to Denzel. He could have easily bought the boy a new one, but chose to give his to the boy. Kinda like an heirloom. Haha.
Why would Tifa buy them? It's Cloud's emblem.
His luxuries are awesome. Fenrir was one hell-of-a-bike. But his 'bed' in the Church can be used since it was his present 'bed'. I guess he wasn't really the type to mind where he slept. Haha.
Again, Cloud is searching for forginess and sleeping in a broken church. Even if he normally sleeps in a king size, both camping and seeking penance are different things.
He wasn't with his family much before Denzel came in. Tifa herself noticed that.
Yes. Throwing himself into his work to distract himself from his issues. Then Denzel got involved and he began making an effort to be an active part of the family again.
I think when he got Geostigma, he thought it was the last straw, he needed to do something about his feelings of punishment.
Yes.
Then Tifa's assumption on Cloud giving up and waiting around for death to come by was wrong. Somehow, for a person who understands Cloud the most, she didn't understand that he did not want to die.
Waiting for death is not the same as wanting to die. Also, she wasn't assuming he had given up, she was asking if he was. She was wondering where his fight had gone. And as a result, he kept on fighting.
Besides, even Tifa doesn't understand ALL the complexities of Cloud's heart. Since we're quoting.
Give me one instance then where Tifa and Aerith interacted as best friends. Sorry, I haven't read one yet.
Seriously, do play the game. They tend to group together most times the group splits, and have several side conversations together. Heck, they hit it off from the first moment they meet in the Don's basement.
So dead people are merely 'memories' now, eh? Harsh, man. Harsh.
Quite literally, that's all they are in the metaphysiology of FF7 and FF10.
Granted, MEMORIES are more than just memories at times, but that's another matter.
Still, she could have thought of other possible places where Cloud could have stayed. She'd just be too focused on Aerith's effect on Cloud if the Church was the only place she thought that Cloud would stay in.
Cloud has, for the past while, felt he needed to make amends for his problems, has talked about not being able to bring back the dead, and admitted he thought Aerith might have brought denzel to him/ him and Tifa. Aerith's church is a logical place to begin looking.
Which he got with the help of those dead people.
And Tifa. And Vincent. And Marlene. Regardless, the dead people being present comes as a surprise to him later.
Yeah, you can go scold the translators of SE for making it a statement instead of a question in the English version. Hahaha.
It's still a question. "You see?" should have in an ideal world come last, but lip flaps.
To support their happiness? They could well as have been happy being together as a family of friends, like how Tifa defined a 'family' in CoT.
I should have poofed that better. I meant I've NOT used their strain as the basis for them being romantically involved. Merely argued that having it doesn't preclude romance.
I didn't see that. Throughout CoT, she seemed so engross in what she and Cloud had.
She asked that he take her the next visit. And again, she's worried because Aerith is directly resonsible for Cloud beating himself up.
Actually, I found this:
So his predictions can't be dismissed easily as not reliable.
Tell that to the UO. And his Manual entry. And his actual prediction accuracy rate. As for BC- Reeve is the head of urban planning. He's a VP. He has access to records.
So, yes, his predictions CAN be dismissed as unreliable because his prediction predicts both nothing and everything and is a prime example of infalsifiability, AKA: Utter uselessness.
I was saying that Cloud's lines were also notable parts of Aerith's death scene. Cloud making Sephiroth shut up kind of makes Sephiroth's speech seem to matter less than what the villain wanted-making Cloud's line more important.
The entire scene is important.
It's major since it affects him so much because of the death. His emotions are always mentioned whenever the Forgotten City is brought up. He felt so much because of Aerith's death. Compare that to Zack's, Aerith's had waaay more impact on the poor guy.
Yes. He was nearly directly responsible for the death of someone he promised to protect, and then blatantly failed to protect that person. He had made no such promise to protect Cloud. Only to live on for the both of them. And he still felt shit when he thought he was failing that promise.
Cloud's big on his word.
Again, to fill in the gaps between the story. Zack's side story with Aerith was one of those games to fill in the gaps in the characters' stories. They wanted to keep FF7 alive. Providing sequel games served that purpose. A marketing ploy.
There was absolutely no need to make those sequels about Zack or emphasize his relationship with Aerith. But that is what they did.
But Yuffie, Barret and Jessie can't be incorporated into the LTD.
Sure as fuck they can. He can go on a date with the first two, Jessie was interested in him, and Yuffie's the only one to kiss Cloud on camera.
As for Zack, maybe it's because we just really see how much Aerith's death had affected Cloud. I can't speak for other Cleriths on this one because we have our own way of thinking when we debate.
So why IGNORE him in SCENES HE'S IN, LIKE the final scene in AC/C in the church?
Why ignore Zack's death on Cloud?
But my next replies will be. If others would be replying to one post only, that person would have to give longer replies to address all those replies to her. Would she not?
You are allowed to aggregate similar points made by people and address them both at once.
I was merely pointing out that for someone who should feel like nothing, it was a feat for him to say that to the person who wanted him reduced to nothing.
Who SEPHIROTH thinks should feel like nothing. Cloud is not beholden to act like Sephypoo wants him to.
You can't always take an aspect to mean as something with just the primary source. We have secondary source to Cloud's feelings for Aerith's death: MotP.
Which are still technically from Aerith's limited perspective. And which has Aerith be jealous of Tifa for getting to live together with Cloud. And MOTP is novella non grata.
Wow, this one is new.
The first one might be similar. But let's look at the words deeper shall we?
Sadness is a very much different emotion compared to Pain, now is it?
And the following lines... I don't know what comes next after what you said because of the blah blah part. Still, the former line was about so many things (family, friends, maybe even the hometown). The second line (related with Aerith) had more emotion, more anger in it.
The repetition must have been to show how much the two lines were different. Similar in a way, but with different meanings and intensity.
PLAY THE GAME. Games are a visual medium. There's a shitton more anger expressed through the visuals and the music in the Nibelheim incident compared to Aerith's demise, which comes acrossed as shocked and appalled.
Aerith knew the real Cloud. She even sensed it before Tifa did (in the Lifestream event). There are lots of quotes to prove that already. And mind you, Tifa just gave one memory and watched everything else from Cloud's perspective since she didn't even talk to him back then, except for the well scene. It was said in MotP that it took Aerith's aid to help Tifa do what she did.
Aerith KNEW OF the Real Cloud. She did know know him with superhuman clarity.
Tifa Knew of Cloud's curious mental state before the game even began. She knew things didn't add up. She offered him a job with AVALANCHE to keep a closer eye on him.
And there are at minimum two months, if not more, for Cloud and Tifa to get to know each other post water tower. Tifa wear a summer dress. Complaints of it getting chilly are made. Cloud states he's leaving next spring.
And even in Maiden, Aerith helped her TO Cloud. Aerith herself was unable to help Cloud and laments that she cannot touch him, cannot communicate with him.
Yes there is a line like that. But it's not really supported in the games/movie/novella is it?
Yes it is, actually. Regardless. It's official. It's corroborated several times.
Even in Maiden, there is a line with Aeris going "she was now happy to kwno the real Cloud" (or something similar, cba to check) AFTER Tifa helps Cloud remember the real him. As in, she didn't before.
If Aerith knew the real Cloud, why did she want to see the real Cloud?
It's shade of 'to meet.... sexually' all over again.
The opposite happened. Cloud and Tifa's hearts called out to each other. Aeris tried to reach him but couldn't, Cloud would not hear her. Then Tifa took a walk, with Cloud, through his mind....while Aeris (if we still want to use Maiden) watched from the sidelines.
Yeah, no matter what, Cloud called to Tifa. Aerith, at most, taxid her there and stopped her from getting Mako poisoning.
Did you even play the game? Aerith never got to know the real Cloud. Yes, she admitted that she wanted to know the real him. But she dies shortly after that, so she never got the chance. That's a fact.
She has not, as she's admitted, making this an extra fustrating discussion.
Edit: And it's kind of useless to use quotes from MoTP since it's not made by SE.
More importantly, not really recognized by SE. Ever.
