The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

Thank you for the link, but this still doesn't address the fact that 'slight' feelings don't make sense in context. Unless it's somehow 'slight' compared to later.

I think this is basically it, I think it's describing the beginning stages of love. I know I've seen the very same phrase used for stuff like that.

 

[Master Bates]

Welcome to the Lifestream forums. I hope you plan to stay more than just for the LTD. We could do with some more members, the more the merrier as they say (=

Thank you. Don't worry because I'm not really planning on staying for the LTD. It just so happens that this topic has the most discussion last time and prompted me to join but I'm all for the fanclubs and some nonserious balderdash.

Cool ? But does Jeremiah let you hang out with his mates ? If you said to Jeremiah that you were going to join the army, would Jeremiah suddenly be more impressed with you, and show more interest you ?

No, because I won't ask him and because I don't like his circle of friends. Maybe he would be impressed with me if I suddenly decide to join the army but I don't want to dwell on the thought of him suddenly becoming romantically interested in me. If that were to happen, I won't be able to sleep at night.

Because that's how the Cloud and Tifa friendship works out.

So Cloud and Tifa can only become childhood friends if they are both romantically interested with each other? One has to be impressed with the other so their friendship can work? I dunno, man... I just dunno. o_O

That they only knew each other for a short period of time. And Tifa doesn't know Cloud that well, because they only really spoke to each other for a short amount of time.

I thought the contention was whether or not they were childhood friends or not. And albeit they don't know each other well, they still knew of each other enough to be called friends.

Well it says in the quote that Tifa thought that they were friends. If Tifa knew Cloud that well, then how come she thought that they were close friends ?

She thought they were friends, but not THAT close. And just because she didn't know Cloud well doesn't mean she didn't know him at all.


What I'm saying here or trying to get across that Tifa couldn't of known Tifa that well, friends or not.

I was also trying to get across that they don't seem like friends, or childhood friends. Because Cloud was never in her main group, and Tifa didn't notice him till he was about to leave Nibelhiem in the spring...


Again, Tifa didn't know Cloud that well when they were children. Tifa admits it. But she still knew him, didn't she? But the contention was whether they were friends or not, not whether she knew him well or not.

Look, the game only shows us what?--- about 10-15 minutes of Cloud's childhood with Tifa: about the well promise, and about Tifa's mother's death and how he failed to save her. Yes, maybe we were not shown of them playing or whatever but the thing is somewhere in their childhood, THEY WERE FRIENDS. What? You don't have to be in someone's main circle to be considered a friend.
Besides, SE has been repeatedly labeling them as "childhood friends", whether you like it or not. Why is that so hard to swallow?

How do you see that as romantic ? Tifa wants a hero, she wants to be saved by a hero. That's not romantic. SE states it as a childhood fantasy xD She just wants to be saved by a hero, a knight in shining armour. Romantic is a passionate kiss by the fire.

Wanting to be saved by superman one day is not romantic xD

Uh, it was during this time that Tifa started on crushing on Cloud. I dunno about you but I sure do consider havinga crush to be having romantic interest. And yes, I do find it romantic.

That still doesn't negate their previous childhood friend status.

I like how you're twisting Tifa's childhood fantasy into a romantic interest. No. It says that Tifa didn't notice Cloud at ALL till she heard Cloud says that he wanted to be a 1st class Solider. Tifa wanted Cloud to be a hero. Tifa ignored Cloud, even though he lived next door. When Cloud got bullied, did Tifa do anything ? No.
If she noticed Cloud, she would of done something to stop the bullying, but instead she didn't, and she only noticed Cloud during the water tower. Don't twist quotes.


I'm not twisting quotes. She started having a crush doesn't mean she didn't take notice of him as a person. Tifa thought of him cute back then, meaning, she had noticed him prior.

And Tifa did not ignore Cloud. It was Cloud who had the superiority complex, thinking Tifa's playmates were stupid, and didn't have the balls to approach. It wasn't Tifa's fault he wasn't given the attention he wanted. And nobody's bullying Cloud. He started the fights.

I didn't say that Tifa was strange or acted weird. D: Oh dear, If you READ what the quotes says, it says that Tifa didn't notice Cloud till she had that childhood fantasy of Cloud saving her one day.

I've said this like, 100 times. If not more. <__________<

And how does this not make them childhood friends? That was my point.

I can't have backup for this, because I've searched everywhere for FF VII pictures and can't find anything. xD

Cloud hid from Tifa.

[/B]Lol no, because I'm sure that Tifa recognized the real Cloud during the Nibelhiem incident. xD And yes, before says it. I have played the game. :/

No, she didn't recognize him. As far as Tifa is concerned, CLOUD WASN'T THERE. And don't worry, I wouldn't ask you if you had played the game because I myself forget details and it was already a long time since I last played FFVII so I can understand.

Tifa clearly says this " memory is fake " How hard is that to understand ? And stop trying to twist things.

Tifa
"No, not memories."
"A memory is something that has to be consciously recalled,
right?"
"That's why sometimes it can be mistaken and a different
thing......"

(She looks down, into the endless green space.)

Tifa
"But it's different from a memory locked deep within your
heart......"
"That's why it must be a fake. If he could recall up that
memory......"
"That's it! What about some memory that has to do with me?"

She said it, a memory consciously recalled must be fake, hence she's asking Cloud not to recall but to unlock a memory locked deep within his heart.

And no, she didn't mean for the well scene to be fake. She is simply guiding him to remember on his own. And if Cloud is able to remember the same memory, then that's all the more reason that their shared memory is legit.

xD

If you read the quote I posted it says that Cloud's coldness during CD 1 is apart of Cloud's true identity.

So no.

So? He was rather cold towards other children during his childhood, doesn't mean he doesn't care.

Also. Read what quotes I've been putting down.

I read quotes, hence I'm fairly certain the promise is important to Cloud --- whether it be past Cloud or present Cloud. There are plenty of quotes to prove that and Cloud having a cold side doesn't prove otherwise.

[/B]I didn't say anything about Cloud being a dick. I said that he was being cold, and that during the start of the OG at that stage, that he cared more about money than his promise to Tifa, and that people change over time. [/QUOTE]

That time when Cloud wasn't fully himself. You don't get my point. The real Cloud may be cold sometimes but the thing is, that Cloud isn't the real Cloud because the real Cloud values his promises. Yes, people may change but there are some things that remain constant.

Again do you read what I put down, the quotes that I put down and stuff. Yes, the start of OG Cloud is the fucked up Cloud, and BC is the true Cloud. BUT SE basically says that COLDNESS IS PART OF CLOUD'S TRUE PERSONALITY.

Fucked up Cloud or not. The COLDNESS IS A TRUE PART OF HIM. According to SE.

But the Cloud of that time is not fully himself. And again, the promise is important to Cloud, according to SE (and they make it clear several times)

You realize that there is two parts of the Highwind affection bit right ? Maybe if that part was canon, then okay.... but there's two parts to it depending on your affection with Tifa.

I never got the Low HW and I'm not familiar with the lines there, but the High HW is canon so yeah.


offtopic: I had a seriously hard time typing this reply since I'm still not used to navigating the functions of this site. Ehehehe... may I ask how to edit posts? Thanks.

 

[Kobato]

Sorry didn't come here sooner. Been watching the Rugby.

Wanting to be saved by a knight in shining armour is.

Yeah but Tifa wants to experience being saved. It's not romantic, because she wants to see what it's like. Like how people would like to experience a flight on a airplane, or a trip to England or a big O. E.

Tifa: "Whenever I’m in trouble, my hero will come and rescue me. I want to at least experience that once."
Cloud: "What?"

You know you want to thank the post, Ryu. It is one click away to the best decision of your life.

Ryu never thanks anybody. He's mean ):

It really sounds like she's got VERY strong feelings for Cloud here. Nothing changes by the time FFVII rolls around except maybe she isn't as naive as she was as a teen.

Strong feelings or does she just want to be saved by a hero ?

 

[Celes Chere]

Strong feelings or does she just want to be saved by a hero ?

Obviously not. In FFVII Tifa says "Nothing else matters, only Cloud" and sure has done a helluva lot for the guy. Even though he isn't really 'hero' material as she thought of when she was younger, he himself, has become her hero. Idk if that will make any sense to you, but yeah. xD

 

[Dashell]

Okay, Cloud or Aeris.. or.. Yo... can I just call you Jazz? D:

We know as a child Tifa wanted to be saved by a hero, so are these the feelings shared under the Highwind? Do you think this is why Tifa continues to hang out and live with Cloud?


Anyways I know you probably feel that you have a ton of stuff to reply to, but don't worry about all of that. Just answer what you can... or just my stuff ...

...

what? .. you all know by now that I'm a spoiled brat

 

[Kobato]

Thank you. Don't worry because I'm not really planning on staying for the LTD. It just so happens that this topic has the most discussion last time and prompted me to join but I'm all for the fanclubs and some nonserious balderdash.

Okay. Well I hope you enjoy it here ! (=


So Cloud and Tifa can only become childhood friends if they are both romantically interested with each other? One has to be impressed with the other so their friendship can work? I dunno, man... I just dunno. o_O

No. What I was speaking about is that they hardly hanged out with each other, and Cloud wasn't invited into Tifa's group.

I didn't say or think that you have to become childhood friends only if you have a romantic interest xD

I thought the contention was whether or not they were childhood friends or not. And albeit they don't know each other well, they still knew of each other enough to be called friends.

Well to be honest, most Cleriths don't think so. We think/ believe that SE just calls them childhood friends to save time on explaining things xD


Again, Tifa didn't know Cloud that well when they were children. Tifa admits it. But she still knew him, didn't she? But the contention was whether they were friends or not, not whether she knew him well or not.

Only for a short time by the water tower. Before that Tifa thought of including Cloud into her group, and she did nothing to stop Cloud from being bullied. They started to know each other, and then Cloud left to be a Solider. ( Well army grunt, but he wanted to be a Solider xD )


Look, the game only shows us what?--- about 10-15 minutes of Cloud's childhood with Tifa: about the well promise, and about Tifa's mother's death and how he failed to save her. Yes, maybe we were not shown of them playing or whatever but the thing is somewhere in their childhood, THEY WERE FRIENDS. What? You don't have to be in someone's main circle to be considered a friend.
Besides, SE has been repeatedly labeling them as "childhood friends", whether you like it or not. Why is that so hard to swallow?


Yes but if you listen to me, I'm trying to tell you that Tifa never included Cloud into her group and she never tried to support Cloud when he was being bullied.

I'm not trying to not believe that they were childhood friends, I'm saying that they didn't seem that close at all, until the meeting by the water tower.

Uh, it was during this time that Tifa started on crushing on Cloud. I dunno about you but I sure do consider havinga crush to be having romantic interest. And yes, I do find it romantic.

That still doesn't negate their previous childhood friend status. She says to Cloud that she would like to experience being saved once. It's NOT romantic. She's bored, and she wants to experience what it could be like being saved by a Solider.

<_____<

I'm not twisting quotes. She started having a crush doesn't mean she didn't take notice of him as a person. Tifa thought of him cute back then, meaning, she had noticed him prior.

Tifa says that he thought that he was cute at the start of the game where they meet again, AFTER the promise was made.

And Tifa did not ignore Cloud. It was Cloud who had the superiority complex, thinking Tifa's playmates were stupid, and didn't have the balls to approach. It wasn't Tifa's fault he wasn't given the attention he wanted. And nobody's bullying Cloud. He started the fights.

He thought that they were stupid because they never let him into the group. He didn't have a superiority complex. He was mad because they never included him in with anything. And yes, it was. Tifa could of included him in the group but she didn't. Not letting him the playgroup is kind of bullying, because it's isolating somebody out.

About the fights, he only wanted to prove that he was stronger, and he wanted Tifa's attention. Because she didn't notice him. At all.

When somebody has to get into a fight to say " Hello I'm here " ! Then that's kind of bad.

No, she didn't recognize him. As far as Tifa is concerned, CLOUD WASN'T THERE. And don't worry, I wouldn't ask you if you had played the game because I myself forget details and it was already a long time since I last played FFVII so I can understand.

Well during the lifestream event Tifa says

" I remember, hmm so it was you ! "

And she kind of jumps and looks surprised, just like she did when she recognized Cloud when he was in drag.

So judging by the graphics, my eighteen year self thought that Tifa recognized army grunt Cloud, because her body language is sort of the same between there and then xD


And no, she didn't mean for the well scene to be fake. She is simply guiding him to remember on his own. And if Cloud is able to remember the same memory, then that's all the more reason that their shared memory is legit.

"That starry night at the well...... And our promise that night... What if the memory was just a lie?"

She was trying to help Cloud yes, but she wasn't sure whether the water tower
memory was truth or not.

So? He was rather cold towards other children during his childhood, doesn't mean he doesn't care.

No. Cloud wasn't cold towards the other kids in his childhood. They were cold to him. He only broke out when he was furious with himself that he didn't save Tifa.


I read quotes, hence I'm fairly certain the promise is important to Cloud --- whether it be past Cloud or present Cloud. There are plenty of quotes to prove that and Cloud having a cold side doesn't prove otherwise.

Lol no. Cloud didn't care about the promise at the beginning of the game, and during the Norther Crater he apologizes to Tifa, because he feels bad about being just a clone of Sephiroth, at that stage he believed in Hojo's mindfucking that he was just clone. And DOC, that's a spin off game, and so many things have been changed from the original game. I don't care what's said in Crisis Core or DOC because the original plot has been manipulated.

That time when Cloud wasn't fully himself. You don't get my point. The real Cloud may be cold sometimes but the thing is, that Cloud isn't the real Cloud because the real Cloud values his promises. Yes, people may change but there are some things that remain constant.


No you're not listening to me. OMG, I kept on telling you that the coldness in CD 1 Cloud is apart of the true real Cloud.

But the Cloud of that time is not fully himself. And again, the promise is important to Cloud, according to SE (and they make it clear several times)

Yeah, in BC and in DOC where things have been changed from the original plot <_____<


I never got the Low HW and I'm not familiar with the lines there, but the High HW is canon so yeah.

No it's not.

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection.


"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

offtopic: I had a seriously hard time typing this reply since I'm still not used to navigating the functions of this site. Ehehehe... may I ask how to edit posts? Thanks.

You need to do some posting till you can edit. It might be 100 posts or something, but you need to do some posting until you have the ability to edit things.

Okay, Cloud or Aeris.. or.. Yo... can I just call you Jazz? D:

Call me whatever you want. Most people here call me Yoshi I think xD

We know as a child Tifa wanted to be saved by a hero, so are these the feelings shared under the Highwind? Do you think this is why Tifa continues to hang out and live with Cloud?

Yeah. Because she wanted to be saved by a hero. And well, Cloud becomes a hero in FF VII. So she gets her wish.

Anyways I know you probably feel that you have a ton of stuff to reply to, but don't worry about all of that. Just answer what you can... or just my stuff ...

Not really. I'm a bit of a black sheep, so I'm used to it.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah. Because she wanted to be saved by a hero. And well, Cloud becomes a hero in FF VII. So she gets her wish.

And Cloud, this cold uncaring person... is okay with this? He's fine with living with some girl who only wants to be by his side as a hero? ... I would think that if he's that cold he'd say, "Screw you bitch" and walk out the door. Why does Cloud stay?

 

[Kobato]

And Cloud, this cold uncaring person... is okay with this? He's fine with living with some girl who only wants to be by his side as a hero? ... I would think that if he's that cold he'd say, "Screw you bitch" and walk out the door. Why does Cloud stay?

He doesn't stay. Not really. He spends most of the time at Aerith's church. And also Denzel and Marlene is there too. Cloud is cold sometimes, but he's not a complete ass and would leave a traumatized broken boy behind, epsically when he looks up to Cloud so much.


Plus Cloud and Tifa are friends. I believe that they weren't very close friends during childhood, but I do believe that they become Friends during FF VII. Just like how he's friends with Vincent, Barret and Cid. etc.

 

[Dashell]

He doesn't stay. Not really. He spends most of the time at Aerith's church. And also Denzel and Marlene is there too. Cloud is cold sometimes, but he's not a complete ass and would leave a traumatized broken boy behind, epsically when he looks up to Cloud so much.

Except that's exactly what he did once he got Geostigma. He left behind the child that was supposed to be some kind of gift from his love, right? And have you read Case of Tifa? Cloud was around quite a bit actually. Do you have any evidence that he spent most of his time at Aerith's church?

Plus Cloud and Tifa are friends. I believe that they weren't very close friends during childhood, but I do believe that they become Friends during FF VII. Just like how he's friends with Vincent, Barret and Cid. etc.

They ARE friends? But you said before that Tifa just wanted a hero, and that's what they talked about under the Highwind? That to me, would imply they weren't friends at that point if that's all they had to talk about... when did they become friends exactly? Was it sometime after the Highwind scene?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Yeah but Tifa wants to experience being saved. It's not romantic, because she wants to see what it's like. Like how people would like to experience a flight on a airplane, or a trip to England or a big O. E.

Alright, we have different opinions about it then. But I always thought that being saved by "a knight in shining armour" is sort of a fairytale dream. You're a princess, and you're waiting for your prince to come and save you. That's a classic.

 

[Kobato]

Except that's exactly what he did once he got Geostigma. He left behind the child that was supposed to be some kind of gift from his love, right? And have you read Case of Tifa? Cloud was around quite a bit actually. Do you have any evidence that he spent most of his time at Aerith's church?

I've read case of Tifa, but that was back in Jan or Feb xD


Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over.

This is a picture from Advent Children. Cloud has cup, a bandage, and a rag to sleep on.
If he spent most of the time at Seventh Heaven bar with Tifa. Then why is a rag to sleep on there ? Hmm ?


They ARE friends? But you said before that Tifa just wanted a hero, and that's what they talked about under the Highwind? That to me, would imply they weren't friends at that point if that's all they had to talk about... when did they become friends exactly? Was it sometime after the Highwind scene?

Just because Tifa just wants to be saved by Cloud and have the experience of being saved by a hero, doesn't mean that they can't have a friendship.
How about after the Lifestream bit ? Where Tifa helps Cloud recover his true identity. What happens during the Highwind depends on the players affection with Tifa Lockhart.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

This is a picture from Advent Children. Cloud has cup, a bandage, and a rag to sleep on.
If he spent most of the time at Seventh Heaven bar with Tifa. Then why is a rag to sleep on there ? Hmm ?

What? Of course he needs sleep like any other person. You don't make any sense!

 

[Kobato]

Alright, we have different opinions about it then. But I always thought that being saved by "a knight in shining armour" is sort of a fairytale dream. You're a princess, and you're waiting for your prince to come and save you. That's a classic.

Hmm I guess you have a point there. Kind of like Disney's Snow White right ? Someday my prince will come >w<

What? Of course needs sleep like any other person. You don't make any sense!

Huh ? Que asked me if I had any sort of proof that Cloud spent a long amount of time at Aerith's church and I said yeah, because inside Aerith's church, Cloud has a sheet to sleep to there, and a pillow, a light and a cup. Maybe the cup is to pee in because there's no toilet xD ?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Hmm I guess you have a point there. Kind of like Disney's Snow White right ? Someday my prince will come >w<

Yes, exactly!

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Huh ? Que asked me if I had any sort of proof that Cloud spent a long amount of time at Aerith's church and I said yeah, because inside Aerith's church, Cloud has a sheet to sleep to there, and a pillow, a light and a cup. Maybe the cup is to pee in because there's no toilet xD ?

I think the point is that he probably brought all that stuff to the church after the ending of CoT, when he got sick and left home. As in, he probably didn't have it there/wasn't spending lots of time in the church prior to that, and was in fact at home whenever he wasn't working.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Huh ? Que asked me if I had any sort of proof that Cloud spent a long amount of time at Aerith's church and I said yeah, because inside Aerith's church, Cloud has a sheet to sleep to there, and a pillow, a light and a cup. Maybe the cup is to pee in because there's no toilet xD ?

I think we all get that Cloud didn't spend 3 minutes or something in Aerith's church. Just because he brought that equipment it doesn't mean that he lived there for 2 months, it could be 2 days you know?

 

[Beckoning cat]

Hiya, been lurking here a while and decided to join in. <.<
Dunno if this post belongs here best, forgive me my forum noobness. =o

It seems to be up to discussion whether Cloud and Tida were friends in their childhood or not, but since SE says so then it is so, plain and simple. And later in the original game it doesn't even matter how damn close they were in their childhood, their promise still seems to be of utmost importance to both and they become more close than ever under the Highwind. And even in the production after the OG the promise is an ongoing thing, like Cloud apologising for being late when saving Tifa with his bike in AC. There's even reference in DoC to the promise, Cloud asks 'Am I late again?' while grinning jokingly on the phone because he's often been a bit late saving the girl.

What matters most is that the dynamics of the game change totally after the Lifestream and Highwind events. That should clear a lot of things regarding LTD and given all the compilation information about Cloud and Tifa confirming their feelings to one another... without words even... and moving together afterwards... well, I can't think of a better way for SE to slap it on your face.

I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to love debating. The FF genre has mostly male main characters and the story naturally revolves around them the most. There is also the stereotype of women revolving around some other character, usually the main guy (the lesbian pair in FFXIII makes the exception that confirms the rule, hmph). FF7 has some features of a harem-like game that japanese are fond of. Surprisingly the biggest target for marketing these games are teenage guys so yeah, it's productive to make all the girls like the main guy because many players want to identify themselves in the main character. It's nice having the biggest sword in the world and having a few girl fans.

Like the dating minigame for example (even Barret seems to be included in Cloud's possible harem). Yes, all the playable women characters seem to be interested in Cloud more or less but seriously, the only scene that can be considered romantic in the game is the Highwind one where both the characters have mutual romantic feelings for one another. That makes a difference. Oh, there is another scene that can be regarded as romantic too. The promise at the well with the starlit sky.

Arguing about who understands Cloud best seems to be a common issue too. Yes, it's Tifa anyway since SE says so by stating she understands him all too well and supports the guy devotedly in addition to tons of things. Why do the women need to know the guy best (as well as know the colour of their long johns and whatnot) in order to be a match for them? It's like they'd have to prove their worth to the guy all the time, and that irritates me quite much. One could also ask, how well does Cloud understand Tifa? Well, he does really, at least once he regains his true self. In CoT he also supports and understands her. Or how well does he understand Aerith for that matter. The guy isn't smart enough to understand that Aerith wouldn't ever blame him for her death. But guess he just needs to blame himself for failing Aerith and Zack even if he knew it because he's so depressed in AC.

I personally think that SE should do something risque to confirm the reality of matters once and for all. Like a new sequel with Tifa and Cloud getting it on in broad daylight on the beach of Costa del Sol declaring their love for one another so that even the people of FFVII Gaia would know it 'Oh my, did they have to so blatantly, well, we knew that already but OK'.
But seriously, at least show some definite display of their love if there ever is to be continuation.

But I doubt SE would. <.< It wouldn't necessarily suit the style of the series. Though, they were never prudish with the OG with Honey Bee Inns, crossdressings, bitchslappings and 'words aren't the only way'- scenes. So then again why not?
And, I'm afraid, they could worry to some extent what happens with the sales since FF7 has an immense amount of supporters and fans alltogether. I feel SE should put a definite end to this but they probably won't because they want people to debate and keep FF7 alive, gain more and more fame and money etc.

Well, at least they've somewhat offered the real answers to be found in the canon material, anyone with well enough reading comprehension and analysing skills should get the idea, SE is promoting the concepts CxT & ZxA. But if someone lives in denial and wants to proclaim their own story as canon like saying 'hey it always was Cloud and Ester to begin with because she gave him a chicken as a hint on wanting to lay eggs with him and he accepted the chicken because he wanted it too' - then, that's their shame.

 

[Master Bates]

No. What I was speaking about is that they hardly hanged out with each other, and Cloud wasn't invited into Tifa's group.

I didn't say or think that you have to become childhood friends only if you have a romantic interest xD

Actually, you did say this:

But does Jeremiah let you hang out with his mates ? If you said to Jeremiah that you were going to join the army, would Jeremiah suddenly be more impressed with you, and show more interest you ?

Because that's how the Cloud and Tifa friendship works out.

Wow @ requirements for Cloud and Tifa to be considered childhood friends.

Well to be honest, most Cleriths don't think so. We think/ believe that SE just calls them childhood friends to save time on explaining things xD

So you dismiss the fact that they are referred by SE as childhood friends (and a dozen times, no less) just because you don't think so. Okay, gotcha.

Only for a short time by the water tower. Before that Tifa thought of including Cloud into her group, and she did nothing to stop Cloud from being bullied. They started to know each other, and then Cloud left to be a Solider. ( Well army grunt, but he wanted to be a Solider xD )

Again, nobody bullied Cloud. He was the bully.

Yes but if you listen to me, I'm trying to tell you that Tifa never included Cloud into her group and she never tried to support Cloud when he was being bullied. [/B]

Cloud = The town bully. Seriously, stop blaming Tifa for Cloud's unpleasant childhood. It's the little fucker's fault he has a negative reputation.

And Tifa did include him to her group when he asked. Clue: The day her mother died. Thing is, if Cloud just asked, he won't be shunned. But then, he won't because he thinks her playmates are stupid.

I'm not trying to not believe that they were childhood friends, I'm saying that they didn't seem that close at all, until the meeting by the water tower.

So going by your stand that they did not know each other, Tifa is a stupid girl who went to the water tower after being invited by a stranger (and by the village bully at that) ALONE and AT NIGHT.

That alone tells me they know each other to some extent, enough for Tifa to answer Cloud's invitation and be comfortable with him at the water tower. Doesn't know each other well =/= TOTALLY INVISIBLE

And no one's saying they were close during childhood. It doesn't matter how close they were, the thing is that they were still friends. Casual friends but still friends.

She says to Cloud that she would like to experience being saved once. It's NOT romantic. She's bored, and she wants to experience what it could be like being saved by a Solider.

<_____<

It may not be romantic to you, but to some (and to Tifa), it is. And that is the time she "took notice" of Cloud "in a romantic light", doesn't mean she haven't noticed him before that.

Tifa says that he thought that he was cute at the start of the game where they meet again, AFTER the promise was made.

Actually, she commented on how cute young Cloud is so she thought of that before and during the promise.

He thought that they were stupid because they never let him into the group. He didn't have a superiority complex. He was mad because they never included him in with anything.

Cloud: "Tifa always used to be with this three-some."
Cloud: "I used to think... they were all stupid."
Cloud: "You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing."
Cloud: "Then later... I began to think I was different..."
"That I was different from those immature kids."

Sounds like slight superiority complex to me. Cloud is an awkward kid.

And yes, it was. Tifa could of included him in the group but she didn't. Not letting him the playgroup is kind of bullying, because it's isolating somebody out.

The thing is Cloud is an awkward child. He didn't even take any noticeable effort to be included in the group. He excluded himself. How would Tifa know he wanted to play with them? And how is not letting him in the playgroup when he NEVER asked a form of bullying?! That's new to me. o_O

About the fights, he only wanted to prove that he was stronger, and he wanted Tifa's attention. Because she didn't notice him. At all.

Didn't take much notice of =/= didn't notice. AT ALL

Are we playing semantics here?

When somebody has to get into a fight to say " Hello I'm here " ! Then that's kind of bad.

Cloud is a stupid kid. He could have just simply say, "hello, I'm here" than to get into fights. I kinds feel bad for him.

Well during the lifestream event Tifa says

" I remember, hmm so it was you ! "

And she kind of jumps and looks surprised, just like she did when she recognized Cloud when he was in drag.

Watch it again. The one who said that is the "present Tifa", not the "flashback Tifa". You know, the 20-year-old Tifa who traveled inside Cloud's subsconscious? She was making a comment there. And this observation is also consistent with what happened to Crisis Core.

So judging by the graphics, my eighteen year self thought that Tifa recognized army grunt Cloud, because her body language is sort of the same between there and then xD

Your judgment is a misjudgment.

"That starry night at the well...... And our promise that night... What if the memory was just a lie?"

She was trying to help Cloud yes, but she wasn't sure whether the water tower
memory was truth or not.

It was Cloud who doubted the memory, not Tifa. She was simply asking Cloud to remember the scene by himself; that he shouldn't just imagine the scene because Tifa said so, and if he ever remembers it, then it must be true. Hence, Tifa's line, "do you imagine this sky? no, you remembered it blahblahblah that's why I continued to believe you were the real Cloud". She was sure of the memory.

No. Cloud wasn't cold towards the other kids in his childhood. They were cold to him. He only broke out when he was furious with himself that he didn't save Tifa.

Okay, so he isn't cold. So he DOES CARE. xD

Lol no. Cloud didn't care about the promise at the beginning of the game, and during the Norther Crater he apologizes to Tifa, because he feels bad about being just a clone of Sephiroth, at that stage he believed in Hojo's mindfucking that he was just clone. And DOC, that's a spin off game, and so many things have been changed from the original game. I don't care what's said in Crisis Core or DOC because the original plot has been manipulated.

Okay, this is just so wrong in so many levels I just don't know where to start. First, despite CC and DC having problems with the continuity with the OG, as far as the LTD is concerned, THEY ARE CONSISTENT. You can't just dismiss them just because you don't like it.

Second, Cloud at the beginning of the game is not his entire self. THIS HERE IS MY POINT and your other statements just prove my point further. You can not, I repeat, CAN NOT, use that against CC Cloud and tell me "beginning of game Cloud" has more weight than CC Cloud when the real Cloud is concerned, because the real Cloud has been said so many times that he values his promises --- and his promise to Tifa, to be specific --- SE approved.

No you're not listening to me. OMG, I kept on telling you that the coldness in CD 1 Cloud is apart of the true real Cloud.

No, you are not listening to me. It doesn't matter if he's partly cold or not because in the end, THE PROMISE IS IMPORTANT TO HIM.

Yeah, in BC and in DOC where things have been changed from the original plot <_____<

And those things has nothing to do with the LTD. >___>

No it's not.

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection.

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

1) You are contradicting yourself. See texts in red.
2) The low affection doesn't fit within the context of Cloud and Tifa communicating their feelings to each other and confirming said feelings to match (and IIRC, there are at least 8 official lines for this).

Also, according to pg. 39 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega, "Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together. Woman's intuition is as perceptive as ever, no?", which tells us that Cloud's pleasant greeting toward Yuffie, leading to her being surprised by his behavior and asking him if he wasn't feeling well, upon her return to the Highwind was influenced by the night he'd spent with Tifa.

Nothing about the conversation in the LAHW with Cloud and Tifa would logically fit.

3) The Deviation page only tells us that: that there is a deviation of the scene. As far as the story is concerned, the HAHW is to be considered canon.

And I think we're going in circles with all these childhood friend bullshit. Canon says they are childhood friends so they are despite what you think. That's that. I'm going to move on.

P.S.: Cloud and Tifa = CHILDHOOD FRIENDS w/ SE stamp of approval

 

[Kobato]

Ugh. I'm sorry Master _ Bates. But I'm really starting to know why most people hate debating the LTD.

I don't want to find this rude or anything, but I have so many Cloti friends here, and I feel like the debating.... I don't want to ruin any friendships with them, because of the LTD. I really felt like I could be offending them, because I saw Tifa as a girl who just wanted a hero, and they saw Tifa who wanted to be be saved by Cloud, because she sees him as her prince charming so to speak.

Also it could be possible, that maybe. Cloud had feelings and emotions for both Aeris and Tifa ? It is possible to love, or have strong feelings for more than one person, you know.

Plus people interpret things differently, Espically ESPICALLY Final Fantasy VII.

What I'm saying is, that I want to become a neutral.

I do admit that I was wrong about the whole Tifa knowing that Cloud was a Shrina Grunt thing, and Cloud does seem to care about the promise he made to Tifa. But it also seems like he had a sort of affection for Aeris as well.

Cloud: Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time...

Cloud: Here I met a flower girl.
She&#8217;s a girl with impressive eyes. She&#8217;s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.

Maybe she&#8217;s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. - FFVII DISMANTLED


If you don't believe me that somebody could have feelings for two people. Watch Sailor Moon xD

Also I'm sick of the Cloti and Clerith hate that's going on.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Huh ? Que asked me if I had any sort of proof that Cloud spent a long amount of time at Aerith's church and I said yeah, because inside Aerith's church, Cloud has a sheet to sleep to there, and a pillow, a light and a cup. Maybe the cup is to pee in because there's no toilet xD ?

I am pretty sure if he had been spending a huge length of time like months or years, he'd get something better than a sheet to sleep on.

also why would he pee in a cup he has a dick he could pretty much direct his pee wherever the fuck he feels like

it's a more logical conclusion to assume that's for water or some shit, unless you're assuming he pees in a cup, tosses that out, and then drinks from the same cup 8(

 

[Master Bates]

Ugh. I'm sorry Master _ Bates. But I'm really starting to know why most people hate debating the LTD.

WHOA, BABY BABY FULL STOP!!!

No one's hatin' here. As far as I am concerned, I am not taking this discussion seriously. xDDD

I don't want to find this rude or anything, but I have so many Cloti friends here, and I feel like the debating.... I don't want to ruin any friendships with them, because of the LTD. I really felt like I could be offending them, because I saw Tifa as a girl who just wanted a hero, and they saw Tifa who wanted to be be saved by Cloud, because she sees him as her prince charming so to speak.

Here's the gist: Your opinion on a character can be challenged. Your interpretation on things can be wrong. Hence, the debate. I do not happen to agree with your view on Tifa because that is not how the creators portray her character and I will continue to stand on that ground and deem your judgment on her character a little skewed, no offense.

Also it could be possible, that maybe. Cloud had feelings and emotions for both Aeris and Tifa ? It is possible to love, or have strong feelings for more than one person, you know.

Plus people interpret things differently, Espically ESPICALLY Final Fantasy VII.

ANOTHER FULL STOP!!!

First things first, I am not against the idea of Clerith. In fact, if you have noticed in my posts here in this thread, I have not argued against Clerith but merely debating for Cloti AND Tifa, not because I ship them, but because I find some of your points and interpretation a little out of it.

Second, I do not disagree with the notion that one can more than one person. I have been there myself.

Third, and I point again: An opinion can be challenged. An interpretation can be wrong, hence the word "misinterpretation". Not all interpretation is correct.
Just because FFVII can be interpreted (though I do not fully agree with this) in many ways, doesn't mean it has no canon story.

What I'm saying is, that I want to become a neutral.

You don't have to be in between in order to be a neutral. To be a neutral, you just need to examine and analyze available materials and evidences objectively, side with the one that's the most objective conclusion and support it. Sometimes, one can be biased towards neutrality.

I do admit that I was wrong about the whole Tifa knowing that Cloud was a Shrina Grunt thing, and Cloud does seem to care about the promise he made to Tifa.

Concession accepted.

But it also seems like he had a sort of affection for Aeris as well.

I will not argue against this, however, I will say this much: It is ambiguous.

[/COLOR]

Cloud: Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time...

Cloud: Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.

Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. - FFVII DISMANTLED

I am aware of this one and IIRC, this one from the Dismantled did not make it to the final cut, or am I wrong? I'm not so sure about this. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't really say much because for us to make a conclusion of the LTD, we must not look at things in isolation but at all materials and put it in context.

If you don't believe me that somebody could have feelings for two people. Watch Sailor Moon xD

No need. It'll only make me feel dumb.

Also I'm sick of the Cloti and Clerith hate that's going on.

Again, baby. No one's hatin'. I love you, now let's make out and end my misery.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Cloud: Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time...

Cloud: Here I met a flower girl.
She&#8217;s a girl with impressive eyes. She&#8217;s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.

Maybe she&#8217;s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase.- FFVII DISMANTLED

He obviously had some kind of feelings for her when he describes her like that. :o

 

[Master Bates]

He obviously had some kind of feelings for her when he describes her like that. :o

Attraction. And I would not argue against that. I myself believe he was attracted to Aerith in the game. Now as to whether he loved her romantically or not, I am not sure.

 

[Kobato]

WHOA, BABY BABY FULL STOP!!!

No one's hatin' here. As far as I am concerned, I am not taking this discussion seriously. xDDD

Go on Tumblr. Everything seems to be " I hate Cloti because Tifa is a whore " .

"I laughed when Aerith died " things like that.

Maybe not here at Lifestream, about around other sites and the net, the LTD hate is just as horrible as ever. >:

Here's the gist: Your opinion on a character can be challenged. Your interpretation on things can be wrong. Hence, the debate. I do not happen to agree with your view on Tifa because that is not how the creators portray her character and I will continue to stand on that ground and deem your judgment on her character a little skewed, no offense.

Well it seemed like that she excluded Cloud from her group, and then all of a sudden she's interested in spiky when he mentions Solider ??

Though she does say that she thought that he was cute, and Cloud was shy and did hide away from everybody. >:

ANOTHER FULL STOP!!!

First things first, I am not against the idea of Clerith. In fact, if you have noticed in my posts here in this thread, I have not argued against Clerith but merely debating for Cloti AND Tifa, not because I ship them, but because I find some of your points and interpretation a little out of it.

That sounds fair.

Second, I do not disagree with the notion that one can more than one person. I have been there myself.

Then how come I have strong feelings for two guys at the moment ? Both of them are really kind and sweet. Giggles :3 I'm not dating them both at the moment, but you know.... plus I'm too scared to say how I feel, to any of them . >:

Third, and I point again: An opinion can be challenged. An interpretation can be wrong, hence the word "misinterpretation". Not all interpretation is correct.
Just because FFVII can be interpreted (though I do not fully agree with this) in many ways, doesn't mean it has no canon story.

I do believe that FF VII can be interpreted differently, because Cleriths see Cloud, Aeris, and Tifa in a different light. Same with the Clotis.

You don't have to be in between in order to be a neutral. To be a neutral, you just need to examine and analyze available materials and evidences objectively, side with the one that's the most objective conclusion and support it. Sometimes, one can be biased towards neutrality.

I don't know but in my heart, I want to be a Cloti again. Because when I was a Cloti. I was happy. I wasn't depressed, I didn't have any problems with hallucinations. Okay, life wasn't the greatest back then. But I was... happy.

But since I've been depressed, I don't see Cloti anymore. I also feel like AC has destoryed my vision for a Cloti future. Cloud is miserable, Tifa tells him to GTFO and drink in his room. Cloud takes off and doesn't call Tifa anymore. It's not exactly .... romantic xD

I will not argue against this, however, I will say this much: It is ambiguous.

I would like to see your reasons why. (: You don't have too, but yeah. Curious.

I am aware of this one and IIRC, this one from the Dismantled did not make it to the final cut, or am I wrong? I'm not so sure about this. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't really say much because for us to make a conclusion of the LTD, we must not look at things in isolation but at all materials and put it in context.

I don't know, You'll need to ask somebody who's a bit more future FF VII knowledgeable. xD I just like the OG, and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

No need. It'll only make me feel dumb.

Why ? The Japanese version of Salior Moon is awesome ! ):


Again, baby. No one's hatin'. I love you, now let's make out and end my misery.

Thankyou <3 <3

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ugh. I'm sorry Master _ Bates. But I'm really starting to know why most people hate debating the LTD.

I don't want to find this rude or anything, but I have so many Cloti friends here, and I feel like the debating.... I don't want to ruin any friendships with them, because of the LTD. I really felt like I could be offending them, because I saw Tifa as a girl who just wanted a hero, and they saw Tifa who wanted to be be saved by Cloud, because she sees him as her prince charming so to speak.

Here's the thing. We don't disagree that Tifa 'wanted a hero,' but what we do disagree with is your idea that there's no romance there. Let's say Tifa has this fantasy, but no one to fill it. None of her closer friends 'do it' for her. Cloud comes along with his 'I'mma be a big damn hero' notions, and Tifa is fixated. Cloud, who she's always thought as cute despite his getting in fights with her other friends, wants to be a hero. So she's smitten. She wants him as her hero.
Juvenile? Fuck yes. She's 13. But to say it's entirely without romance, well, that just doesn't fit.

Also it could be possible, that maybe. Cloud had feelings and emotions for both Aeris and Tifa ? It is possible to love, or have strong feelings for more than one person, you know.

Plus people interpret things differently, Espically ESPICALLY Final Fantasy VII.

Yes. And people interpreting a thing doesn't grant that interpretation validity. Only being forged in the fires of Mt Doom give them validity. Also the ability to turn you invisible.

What I'm saying is, that I want to become a neutral.

What makes a woman turn neutral? Power? Gold? Or just a hear full of neutrality.
Incidentally, like, half the people in here arguing for C/T at one point or another do claim neutrality. Not because they don't think there is an answer, but because they let the evidence lead them to a conclusion, rather than preference.

Cloud: Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time...

Cloud: Here I met a flower girl.
She&#8217;s a girl with impressive eyes. She&#8217;s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.

Maybe she&#8217;s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. - FFVII DISMANTLED

Question- where's that first one from, specifically? Is that also Dismantled? Please cite your sources.

If you don't believe me that somebody could have feelings for two people. Watch Sailor Moon xD

Our argument is not can't. It's does not. Well, nothing serious, anyways. It's one thing to go from 'Wow, she's hot' to 'Man, I definitely want to settle down and have kids with her' to 'PADME, NOOOOOOOOOOOO' levels of loving someone after death. (Incidentally, I subscribe to the hypothesis that Vader accidentally and unwittingly killed his own wife in his grief over being told she was dead. THAT'S a tragic hero's downfall, right thar.)

Also, on a tangent, the 'loves to people' thing goes a lot further to explaining Aerith than it does Cloud, but everyone seems to be against accepting that with her. I have no idea why.

Also I'm sick of the Cloti and Clerith hate that's going on.

See, this is why I prefer to hate on specific people. It prevents uneccessary fallout.

I am pretty sure if he had been spending a huge length of time like months or years, he'd get something better than a sheet to sleep on.

also why would he pee in a cup he has a dick he could pretty much direct his pee wherever the fuck he feels like

it's a more logical conclusion to assume that's for water or some shit, unless you're assuming he pees in a cup, tosses that out, and then drinks from the same cup 8(

Why assume he tosses it out? Waterworld, Natch.

First things first, I am not against the idea of Clerith. In fact, if you have noticed in my posts here in this thread, I have not argued against Clerith but merely debating for Cloti AND Tifa, not because I ship them, but because I find some of your points and interpretation a little out of it.

Very few people here are against the idea of most pairings. Just the 'reality' of them in the narrative.

Third, and I point again: An opinion can be challenged. An interpretation can be wrong, hence the word "misinterpretation". Not all interpretation is correct.
Just because FFVII can be interpreted (though I do not fully agree with this) in many ways, doesn't mean it has no canon story.

Indeed, even that which is official can be further interpreted. We're just getting to the facts of the matter.

You don't have to be in between in order to be a neutral. To be a neutral, you just need to examine and analyze available materials and evidences objectively, side with the one that's the most objective conclusion and support it. Sometimes, one can be biased towards neutrality.

See my snark above.
Seriously, though, true neutrality isn't about not arriving at a conclusion. Neutrality is about not beginning with a conclusion in mind and allowing oneself to naturally arrive at one through an examination of the details.

I will not argue against this, however, I will say this much: It is ambiguous.

Plus, having an affection for Aerith isn't special. THE ENEMY had an affection for Aerith. Cid took a shine to her.

I am aware of this one and IIRC, this one from the Dismantled did not make it to the final cut, or am I wrong? I'm not so sure about this. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't really say much because for us to make a conclusion of the LTD, we must not look at things in isolation but at all materials and put it in context.

Including the context of the complete form of that quote, in which Cloud has an introspective about how his own eyes are tainted, etc. etc. etc.

Again, baby. No one's hatin'. I love you, now let's make out and end my misery.

No, sorry, forum rules prohibit this.
You must mud wrestle first.

He obviously had some kind of feelings for her when he describes her like that. :o

Yeah, the question is

Go on Tumblr. Everything seems to be " I hate Cloti because Tifa is a whore " .

daflock's back?

"I laughed when Aerith died " things like that.

Maybe not here at Lifestream, about around other sites and the net, the LTD hate is just as horrible as ever. >:

Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory explains quite a lot of that.

Well it seemed like that she excluded Cloud from her group, and then all of a sudden she's interested in spiky when he mentions Solider ??

Again, Cloud did the excluding. Tifa actually invited him in the one time we see that he tried and she had say, even though she was completely wrapped up in her quest to find her dead mom's spirit over Mt Nibel.

Though she does say that she thought that he was cute, and Cloud was shy and did hide away from everybody. >:

Not exactly 'hid away.' 'Beat snotless' perhaps.

Then how come I have strong feelings for two guys at the moment ? Both of them are really kind and sweet. Giggles :3 I'm not dating them both at the moment, but you know.... plus I'm too scared to say how I feel, to any of them . >:

MB DOES NOT disagree with the idea you can love two people romantically. MB was agreeing with the idea.

I do believe that FF VII can be interpreted differently, because Cleriths see Cloud, Aeris, and Tifa in a different light. Same with the Clotis.

Yes, but that doesn't make all interpretations valid.

I don't know but in my heart, I want to be a Cloti again. Because when I was a Cloti. I was happy. I wasn't depressed, I didn't have any problems with hallucinations. Okay, life wasn't the greatest back then. But I was... happy.

While I don't think being a Cloti is directly related to your happiness, I repeat that I feel you need to seek professional assistance for your depression and ESPECIALLY hallucinations

But since I've been depressed, I don't see Cloti anymore. I also feel like AC has destoryed my vision for a Cloti future. Cloud is miserable, Tifa tells him to GTFO and drink in his room. Cloud takes off and doesn't call Tifa anymore. It's not exactly .... romantic xD

That's what depression does. It makes you fixate on the negative. You don't see the positive escape.
Look. Cloud was pretty much clinically depressed too. He tried to do it all on his own, too. That wound up backfiring. He needed help, and help from several people, to work through it. Go get help. It's for the best. Not just proffessional help, but from your friends and family to. Get and use your support network.

I would like to see your reasons why. (: You don't have too, but yeah. Curious.

Because there's really nothing concrete about it. He never says anything of the sort. It all comes from Aerith's interest or Cait Sith's nonsense. Cloud is, generally, nonplussed. He spends the majority of the first day they know each other worrying about and wanting to get back to Tifa.

I don't know, You'll need to ask somebody who's a bit more future FF VII knowledgeable. xD I just like the OG, and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

While that's fine for your own enjoyment, in a debate regarding narrative and continuity, it's quite ill advised.

Why ? The Japanese version of Salior Moon is awesome ! ):

But it lacks the glorious contributions of Talent, Cousins, and other censorship that definitely didn't work that the English language version provided.

Thankyou <3 <3

Here is your forum regulation dangerously small mud wrestling uniform bikini.

Um, where can I read Dismantled? I have never read it before, just wondering.

Very little has been translated. Mostly because IIRC, no one's bothered to scan the whole thing- pointed glare at someone here who owns it.