The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Tina Armstrong]

They aren't. As much as Rikku/Paine would be hot, it's acanon. Plus, the box art shows a pattern with Tifa Closer and Aerith further away, PLUS PLUS it's a DRAGON QUEST PARTY GAME.
Honestly, shits should not be given about it, but if they are, Cloud and Tifa have a bunch more in game chatter than Cloud and Aerith. Aerith chats most with Angelo from DQ8.

Ugh, whatever.

Also, ONCE AGAIN, I ask you to simplify your formatting, Jazz.

.....

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ugh, whatever.

It's the disc label to a Dragon Quest party game, and people are trying to use it as evidence. It needs to be killed with FIRE.

.....

Her post code is a giant mess of tags that close only to open identical tags. I know she wants to add pizzazz to the post, but getting the content first and the formatting second keeps me from having to wade through

[font][color][/font][/color][font][color]

all the time.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

It's the disc label to a Dragon Quest party game, and people are trying to use it as evidence. It needs to be killed with FIRE.

There are a lot of "evidence" that needs to be killed with fire.

Her post code is a giant mess of tags that close only to open identical tags. I know she wants to add pizzazz to the post, but getting the content first and the formatting second keeps me from having to wade through

[font][color][/font][/color][font][color]

all the time.

I thought it was directed at me, sorry.
But you're right, I'm really having a hard time quoting her. :/

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

The quoting difficulty is one of several reasons I've kept my replies in here to a minimum, even when my thoughts stirred.

Another reason, and I mean no offense with this Cloud, is that your arguments are degrading as you continue to debate. While I never agreed with your position, I could at least see where you were coming from earlier. I am now seeing tons of Devotion quotes, out of context interpretations of UO information, and blatant fabrications in your posts. Its not a good sign.

 

[Dashell]

Jazz has come up with the perfect plan, format your posts poorly and no one can reply

Very little has been translated. Mostly because IIRC, no one's bothered to scan the whole thing- pointed glare at someone here who owns it.

Oh sorry, Ryu ,let me drop everything and scan that for you

But seriously what do you want me to scan? You have all the diary entries, and like the interviews and such. What else do you want? I don't think anything else is worth scanning.

Also Yuna and Tidus ARE next to each other on that disc, Ryu, what are you saying they aren't for?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Also Yuna and Tidus ARE next to each other on that disc, Ryu, what are you saying they aren't for?

There are two Yunas.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Jazz has come up with the perfect plan, format your posts poorly and no one can reply

Yeah, piss people off by being deliberately obfuscatory. That's a great strategy. Except the part where it's fucking stupid. That has gotten people killfiled on sight before, and driven off of numerous forums.

Oh sorry, Ryu ,let me drop everything and scan that for you

But seriously what do you want me to scan? You have all the diary entries, and like the interviews and such. What else do you want? I don't think anything else is worth scanning.

EVERYTHING! Seriously, anything that looks like it might be dev cycle related, or discussing the little fiddly bits of continuity. Or just do what the folks are doing with the other Kaitai Shinsho and dump it page by page.

Also Yuna and Tidus ARE next to each other on that disc, Ryu, what are you saying they aren't for?

You DO realize I mention Yuna twice, yes? There's a reason for that.

There are two Yunas.

That's the reason.

 

[Dashell]

You DO realize I mention Yuna twice, yes? There's a reason for that.

I actually thought this was a typo XD

and I already scanned anything worth while in Dismantled but I'll check again.

 

[Kobato]

Oh my gosh. So much to reply too. Sorry if this takes a while, and please no interruptions ! Please don't debate back to everything till I've replied to everything.

I asked you please and kindy ! <3

That's because it's not

/exits stage left

LOL sorry that was a example. No that was never said in the game. xD

Okay so then...


Do you have any evidence that Cloud asked to join? You seem to have some evidence of this and I was under the impression he never asked. So... did this happen in the game or are you just assuming? [/qoute]


OMG QUE ! Is ANYBODY reading what I'm typing down and the quotes that I'm putting down, because if not, then there's no point in me debating with you guys. I'm deadly serious.


Tifa "But we were children, back then." (He turns away slowly.) "...I know. I'm the one that was stupid." "I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group." (He turns to face Tifa dead-on.) "Then later... I began to think I was different..."


That was written in large letters. How can you not see that ?


Okay, I must have missed it... and I'm sorry, but can you show me where it said that all the canon couples are shown on that disc please? I didn't realize that disc was that important.

All you need to do is just LOOK at the CD. And you'll see that Tidus and Yuna are paired together and Squall and Rinoa are paired together. Both of them are canon couples. And yes, the game was made by Square Enix. So yes, it's important.

Okay so when they say that Denzel sees Cloud and Tifa as his parents... how does that work? Does that make Cloud and Denzel brothers?... so Cloud is both Denzel's brother and father?

Whut ? If you actually read the Tifa quotes. You'll read the Tifa quotes, you'll see that Tifa views Cloud as a child.

But you said she didn't really know so... maybe she just heard all the rumors and believed it? How is that her fault? She should have just gone around asking everyone questions as to what "really" happened that day instead of just believing everyone?

So much is going on that I can't look back to see what you quoted Que. With all this stuff going on. you 'll need to be a bit more clear. Because yeah, replying to lots of people xD

FFVII is from 97, so that's many years out of date as well. Should we only use stuff after that as well?

OMG. ARE YOU GUYS REALLY SERIOUS ? THE OG IS ''TOO OLD'' SO IT DOESN'T COUNT ANYMORE, WHAT THE FUCK ? WHAT THE FUCK ?

The reason he left Tifa and the family was because he was afraid of losing the happiness he had formed with them when he got Geostigma. As for him and Tifa not getting along in AC, you are mistaken.

Have you read Case of Tifa at all Tiff ?

It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.

&#8220;Shall I join you?&#8221; There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
&#8220;I want to drink alone.&#8221;
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, &#8220;Then drink in your room.&#8221;

Yeah that sounds like they're REALLY getting along swell. >>

Tifa waited for his answer, though she couldn&#8217;t hear it even if she waited until the morning.

Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud&#8217;s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over.

Yup. Cloud and Tifa got along really well. >>

While various versions of his past were intertwined in his memories, Cloud managed to regain an understanding of who he truly is during his journey in Final Fantasy VII. Despite this, he now forsakes human contact and prefers living alone

After Cloud started his delivery service, their &#8220;family&#8221; life changed greatly. It wasn&#8217;t too good. Besides morning and late night, Cloud was usually not at home. And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together. Tifa closed the bar for a day during the week, but it didn&#8217;t stop Cloud from doing his job. Cloud wasn&#8217;t likely to turn down requests.

Cloud may enjoy spending time with a family, but really, mostly he would prefer to be alone. Also when Tifa closed the bar, it didn't stop Cloud from doing his job. You think that if he truly had strong feelings for her, he would halt his job and spend some time with her, but he doesn't.


He seeks Aerith's forgiveness, he isn't running to her to tell her his feelings, or his life story. Tifa is the only woman that understands Cloud, this has already been stated officially . Tifa doesn't know everything about Cloud, and can't be expected to. In fact it's rather difficult to understand every little thing about someone even if they ARE your partner. Cloud ran away because he was scared, feeling unworthy, and wanted forgiveness. Not because he didn't love Tifa. Besides he tells Tifa everything will be okay as long as she is by his side and that they will start a new life together. That's not something you tell just a good friend.


Actually Cloud is seeking forgiveness from Aerith and Zack. That quote is rather ambiguous. You could either see that he's keen to live with Tifa, or he's trying to tell tell Tifa that's he's happy about living a new life with a friend.

I assume the second.


But that scene is canon according to the Ultimania. It says that Cloud and Tifa realize the thoughts and feelings each other have for one another MANY times, including in the time line during the Highwind scene. They didn't realize their feelings in the low version, so that version would make no sense while reading the Ultimanias.

Tiff ? Did you read what I put down ? ALL the canon couples in the Ultimanias don't have any side notes, because they're canon. The Highwind high affection has a side note, meaning that it's not canon.

Then she's really creepin' on her son. :/ There is no doubt that Tifa loves Cloud. She shows her jealous side, her caring side, and even asks: "Do you love me?". Just because she has motherly feelings, doesn't MAKE her a mother. ffs. So tired of that argument. >w>
And are we REALLY bringing up how two characters standing together makes it love? *stares at disc* Wow, I never knew Rikku/Paine was canon!

Don't be such a smartass. Omg, then I guess that Quistis is a creeper too ? Because she sees Squall as a beloved sibling. OMG INCEST >>
Oh my gawwwwwd. The CD shows the official FF pairings together. If you think that the CD only shows couples then you're sadly mistaken. Better start shipping Vivi x Tifa then, if you think like that.

 

[Dashell]

OMG QUE ! Is ANYBODY reading what I'm typing down and the quotes that I'm putting down, because if not, then there's no point in me debating with you guys. I'm deadly serious.

Yes... did you read mine? I was never let into the cool kids club at school either, but you know what? I never asked. I was never invited to parties either... cause I didn't make myself known.

This doesn't say he ever asked and wasn't let in, just that he wasn't let in. Do you have evidence that he asked? And before you post that quote again, where in that quote does it say he asked? Because all that quote says is that he wasn't let in and it could have been because he didn't ask or didn't make himself known.

Please pay attention to the part I bolded.
I understand you believe that it's saying cloud asked and wasn't let in, but by the same two paragraphs I posted, isn't it possible someone could believe Cloud never asked and that's why he was never let in?

All you need to do is just LOOK at the CD. And you'll see that Tidus and Yuna are paired together and Squall and Rinoa are paired together. Both of them are canon couples. And yes, the game was made by Square Enix. So yes, it's important.

And I'm asking about the rule that says only canon couples are shown on CDs.

What about Cloti merchandise? Does that count or no?

Does this count? What about this? This shows present day Cloud and Tifa next to each other and Crisis Core Aerith and Zack next to each other. We know Crisis Core Aerith was with Zack, so that's canon, so by the same logic you used for the CD, Cloud and Tifa must be canon right?

Does this mean anything? Or that image in the 10th AU that has Cloud and Tifa's figurines next to each other?

Whut ? If you actually read the Tifa quotes. You'll read the Tifa quotes, you'll see that Tifa views Cloud as a child.

So we're going to ignore the quote I just posted? Okay cool, I'll ignore the ones you posted.


no really, please don't just ignore what I said. A quote said that Cloud and Tifa are Denzel's parents. Without saying it contradicts something else, do you have any other thoughts?

OMG. ARE YOU GUYS REALLY SERIOUS ? THE OG IS ''TOO OLD'' SO IT DOESN'T COUNT ANYMORE, WHAT THE FUCK ? WHAT THE FUCK ?

I was sarcastically replying to Ryu's "It's out dated" comment. PLEASE pay attention to who I replied to? not everything is directed at you, if I quote someone else, that means I'm not talking to you. ... dude you need to slow down and really read what people are saying and who they're talking to. The quality of your replies matters more than the quantity. If you need to take a day or two to reply, please do so, I'm sure this isn't easy. But I think this is why your debating has kind of been slipping lately, because you aren't reading everything. So please try to do so so it's not so confusing and all over the place. Thanks.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ok, what? Just... what?!

Let me tell ya something Cloud, repeatedly asking people if they bothered to read your posts gets a little insulting. Increasing amounts of CAPS LOCK and ?!?! doesn't help matters. Especially as it is you who seems to be overlooking the many statements made by various participants in this thread.

For instance, the HA scene under the Highwind IS canonical to the Compilation. You can cherry pick around the games you do or don't like all you want, but it doesn't change word of god statements supported by MORE word of god. Said word of god statements have been enumerated to you several times, I have yet to see a serious and thought out response to those. Maybe in your personal canon the LTD could go either way. Maybe in mine Cloud got some on the side from Yuffie at some point. Neither of these things is the canon of the Compilation itself. You have to deal with that.

In fact, let's talk about that a bit more. Its the only thing I am going to bring up from here on in this post, so that if you wish to respond to me you have to respond to this issue.

Yes, the page did make mention of the LA version. That was simply a detail stating that there was in fact a second version. It is not saying "we the creators do not know which of these things happened." If the LA had any chance of being canon, it would 100% contradict the word of god from the nice folks who made this game that Cloud and Tifa did express their strong feelings, without words no less, under the Highwind. That only happens in the HA version. Thus, HA version is canon.

Now, I would normally invite you to rebuke or disprove that if you can, but I know you cannot do so. I almost hope you don't even try, since most anything you could claim would sound a lot like the classic "the creators don't know what they're talking about/are lying!" arguments. I fully expect this post to be glossed over, as it largely has been previous. But I tried.

 

[Dashell]

I think things are getting a little heated... maybe let's calm down? I realize I'm not a mod but since this thread has been kind of fun lately, I don't want to see it closed

Cloud is taking on numerous people and you can't expect her to respond to everyone, especially when most people are saying the same thing as the next guy. she's trying, but I think she just needs to slow down and read everything that she's replying to and that will help a lot.

Also, TBH I don't give a hoot about all this Highwind scene canon stuff. I've never seen anyone properly refute this quote:

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless. (page 25)

The only response I've ever seen is, "Well if that's true then why this and why that? It contradicts what happened here!" and so on ... no one has properly refuted without just yelling "CONTRADICTION!" and that tells me right there that this quote is very important. You can't say "Doesn't say what feelings" and the past progressive means Cloud was telling her about the feelings he was holding at the time, so you can't say "past feelings."

So if someone wants to say the HA version of the highwind scene isn't canon, I'm okay with that. Cause the Lifestream scene isn't optional and that quote can't just be ignored.

 

[Kobato]

Do you have a picture of the page? I vaguely recall the line, but I don't recall it being Cloud saying it.

What was the quote again, could you do a favor and re-post it Cecil ?


Don't need to- actually, no, you do NEED to, but it's not required to understand my point, which is that thinking someone's hot is different from thinking they'd make a good romantic partner, and yet another thing entirely to persist in romantically loving a dead person to the exclusion of all others.

I'll post this.

Death cannot stop love, especially in the world of Final Fantasy. And it certainly is not a hindrance to Cloud and Aerith. It never was. The real world =\= the FF world. Aerith was confirmed to continue living within Cloud's subconsciousness by Tetsuya Nomura, which explains why only Cloud can see, hear, and touch Aerith. For Cloud, who is so closed-off around others, sharing a soul bond like this, a bond in which they are melded completely and nothing is hidden between them, this relationship must be a very intimate one indeed. Cloud can now roam freely around Gaia with Aerith by his side always; Aerith, whom he shares everything with her.

Tseng. Reno. Rude. The Player Turk- whichever one it is- all basically fudge their mission parameters because they like Aerith.
Incidentally, you ignore the point that even Cid took a shine to her. Liking Aerith is par for the course.

No. No. No.

Because Rude has strong feelings and emotions for Tifa. So that proves your theory wrong. Sorry pal.



Someone from Gamefaqs. Arguments boiled down to 'There's porn of Tifa, ergo she's a slut.' And those were her best ones.


We really shouldn't mention other places.


Tifa's friend turns to her and asks if she wants to let Cloud in. Next we see, Cloud is with the group. QED.
As for Cloud did the excluding, HE was the one picking fights.

What game did you play ? Because I played Final Fantasy VII.


Rejected... AGAIN? Where in the text does it indicate Cloud had even tried to get into the group previously?

Read the blue quote, that I enlarged that I copy and posted to Que. Again. Is anybody reading what I'm actually putting down ? Because then there's no point in debating. At all.


Which doesn't mean he was willfully excluded from the group beforehand. It ALSO means that for the majority of his time, HE was the instigator. Remember, Tifa was 7 when her mom died.

/ head desk.


Again, it IS basic english. We're in a debate. You don't ignore evidence in a debate just because you're not fond of it.

LOL LOL LOL THIS IS HILARIOUS !

SPITS OUT DRINK. YOU DON'T BELIEVE HOW MUCH I'M LAUGHING RIGHT NOW.

loooooool.


Tseng had an attraction towards Aerith. The turks, rather uniformly, had an affection for her.
But duly noted that you default 'affection' to romantic affection.
Why not feelings, as in the case of 'mutual feelings?'

Lol no. Again, what game did you play ? Because I played Final Fantasy VII.

Rude loved Tifa.

Underneath it says.

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

the statement on page 232 talks about the two versions of the HW scene and specifically states that the scene with deep meaning (which must mean romance, from what the other scan says) will take place only IF the degree of affection is high.

That is obviously telling us that any romance between Cloud and Tifa is *optional*.


The one time we see Cloud try to get in, he gets in. Where's 'they never let him in,' exactly?


You clearly haven't played FF VII at all Ryu. Maybe you should play Mario instead ? Because wouldn't need to make up BS for that game, since everybody pretty well knows that Peach is in another castle. You could try and say that Peach was in the castle all along, but people would just laugh.


Err, yes. Because she'd done something to make himself stand out. Incidentally, you're trying to use 'didn't take notice of' and 'wasn't interested in' in very specific ways, instead of other equally valid ways that coincide with the idea of childhood friendship and then later becoming romantically interested in him.


She'd done something to make himself stand out ? Don't make sense. :/

No, because the quote says that Tifa didn't notice Cloud until he mentioned about joining Solider. The quote DOES NOT say " Tifa wasn't interested in Cloud until he mentioned Solider ".

Tifa: If you make it, will you be in the newspapers?
Cloud: I'll try.
Tifa: Hey, let's make a promise... Umm... if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind... You'll come save me, all right?
Cloud: What?
Tifa: If I'm in trouble, my hero will come and rescue me. I want to experience that at least once.
Cloud: What?
Tifa: *Looks up at Cloud.*
Come on! Promise me!
Cloud: All right... I promise.

Tifa says that she wants to experience being saved. It's not romantic. Because ANY boy in the village could of filled that out.


AC Cloud doesn't get along with ANYONE well. He's so bad he's closed himself off from everyone, EVEN TIFA. The point is HE'S GETTING OVER THAT SHIT.
And that phrase is the generic 'my location' usage of my place, not 'my personal place.' And yes, there's a distinction.

Err.. Vincent ? Cloud doesn't walk away from him, and they even have a conversation together about Jenova. So yeah, that's not really true. He just prefers to be alone. About the location.

After Denzel recovered, she listened to his story about everything that happened to him before he arrived here. Then she thought to herself that he was supposed to come here. He was one of the victims when Sector Seven was destroyed. The reason why Sector Seven was destroyed was because of us. That's why I had to take responsibility and raise him. He didn't go to Cloud's place. He met Cloud so that he could come to my place. ~revised Case of Tifa


He keeps things from her because he does not wish to burden her with her problems. "They're my problems, I have to work them out." He only goes to Aerith because she can solve those problems by offering him forgiveness. Absolution. He wants to be free from guilt.


Yes Cloud does want to be freed from guilt. But not only Aeris, but Zack too.

What? No. He's expressing how amazing it is that she's still INNOCENT in MIDGAR, and commiserating that he lost his innocence a long time ago.
Full quotes. Context. they matters.

What ? The quote says nothing about that ! Lol, lol , lol !


Put another way- It's a deviation that you can bring Tidus back, or leave him dead in 10-2. By your logic, Tidus didn't come back because there's a deviation.
In another example, it is listed what happens if you bring Vincent to the Sister Ray. These events are still canon.



And the one time we see that he tries, and she's asked, he's in.

What is this about the childhood group again ? Because no. He never gets in.


Plus, Cloud and Tifa have a future together. Period, end of, Creator comments and everything.


Yeah lol. Wonderful future. Cloud calls Aerith's church his place, and Cloud never answers Tifa's cellphone calls. Lol, yeah. Some great future >>



The canon, as it stands, disagrees with the idea of the pining for the flower girl version of Clerith. Cloud's own words indicate he wants forgiveness from Aerith. Not romance. In either version.

No.

Cloud was devastated over Aerith's death (please see #2). Maiden of the Planet and Case of Tifa both confirmed just how heart-broken Cloud was over the death of Aerith, speaking of how his heart cracked and how the pain tore him apart, confirming the sorrow Cloud bore over her loss and the anger and hatred he felt toward Sephiroth for murdering her. However, they spoke only of Cloud. Cloud was the one Aerith heard screaming in agony over her loss, not anyone else. Aerith was a friend to everyone in AVALANCHE and yet it is Cloud's heart that breaks and Cloud's screams of anguish that reach Aerith in the Lifestream. In fact, in MotP, Aerith states that she is surprised at Cloud's depth of feeling for her:

"She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater. There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart."

Why would Aerith be surprised if Cloud only thought of her as a mere friend? Aerith knew that they were friends before all of this. But, with her death, Aerith sees that Cloud loved her a great deal, much more than a friend. Aerith, realizing just how much Cloud cares for her, later wonders if she and Cloud would be seen as family or lovers (clearly she was speaking of "family" in the sense of marriage due to the flow of her thoughts in the direction of lovers and confessing her love) if only she could make her feelings for him clear:

"Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a 'whole'."

Aerith clearly states here that the reason why many souls don't return to the planet is because they love someone among the living and/or are loved in return by one of the living.

Aerith retains her consciousness because of her love for Cloud (and the fact that she lives on in his subconsciousness); Cloud seeks out the flower fields, spends time in them, picks flowers from them, and takes beaucoup pictures of them because of his love for Aerith and the fact that he can see/hear/interact with her there.


Maybe he just wants to pick her pocket full of posies before giving her a ring around the rosie.

Black Death Joke ? It may of occurred many years ago, but it's NOT funny.


I think you're making things up.

LAWL

Yeah like all the Turks had feelings for Aerith ? That Cloud was included into Tifa's group ?

BWA ! HILARIOUS !

Look, let's say that's exactly what happened. Let's say that, as per your reading, Tifa NEVER NOTICED CLOUD AT ALL... How the fuck is she responsible for what the three fuckers do to someone she never noticed?

Yeah she never knew that Cloud helped tired to help her out during the fall she had during Mt Nibel either.

And she couldn't have been referring to what she thought of him back then?
And again, wanting to be rescued by a hero!= romantic?
WHAT CULTURE doesn't have that cliche? Hell, there's a romantic power ballad from the 80s called 'I need a Hero.'

Derp again, it wasn't romantic because she wanted to EXPERIENCE being saved by a Solider. ANYBODY could of fulfilled that ''promise ".

Here's a example of a romantic promise from a Final Fantasy game.

Squall: The reason why you couldn't find me was because we haven't promised yet. Rinoa: Promised...? Squall: I'll be waiting for you. If you come here, you'll find me. I promise. Rinoa: I'll be here, too. It's a promise! Thanks, Squall! Next time, we'll meet for sure!

Now where does it say that Squall wants to experience wanting for somebody ?

That's right. Uh- huh. Nowhere.

And their future together ?

Now show me a picture of Cloud and Tifa embracing each other.

Can't find one ?

Yeah, thought so.

But you can't have a future with them.
Also this line of argument requires a love to exist prior to death as a prerequisite. Get to supporting that.

FF VII AC shows that death shows no bounds.



And the LA scene makes no sense if you get the 'hours after Meteorfall' scene in CoT. Or the 'Dude, Tifa's Words aren't the only way' line was risque' interview. Or etc. etc. etc.

The interview was about how they were going to add Cloud and Tifa come out of the Chocobo Stable to make it look like they did sex in the High affection version. But it didn't happen. That interview is what SE removed from the game. Yes, Tifa says that line in the High affection version.


And now how she saw Cloud like the father of the two small children they're taking care of?

Read the quotes, they say that Tifa sees Cloud like a child.



Because he was headed for a solution of last resort and did not wish to bother Tifa with taking care of his ass should it fail.

Uhm no.

"Nah, I didn't because he would just say this is Tifa's place." (Cloud)

"I see. If that's so, it can't be helped then." (Tifa)

Does Cloud also think this? Actually, I wanted to ask him about that.



And then he returns to living with Tifa after Advent Children. Your point?


Yeah Just because he wants to move back into Seventh Heaven doesn't mean that he loves Tifa. Denzel and Marlene are there too. Do you think that Cloud has strong feelings for them as well ?

Barret did say that he didn't feel comfortable with Cloud being around his daughter in FF VII :/


This is from Maiden, before she is aware, in that story, of the truth of Cloud. Just for context.
Also for context, Aerith doesn't know if meeting Cloud again will make her vanish.
"But does that mean I'll disappear as soon as I meet Cloud? I wonder if that's what's happening or... Is there still something else I've still to do...?"

Awh, but Maiden of the Planet isn't canon !

>:


Um. The vast majority of those pictures on his wall are not of flower fields. A number of them are of industrial areas.
And once again referencing CoT, remember how Cloud would tell stories of his travels to the kids? What helps stories? Pictures!

He still has flowers on his desk :/ And how would you tell a story to kids with a photo of a industrial area ?

"Uhmm yeah kids... this is Edge. It's big and grey and blocky." :/

That's disagreeing with the idea that Clerith is a realized pairing, not the idea of the pairing itself.


Yeaaaah and saying that C/ T is canon, C/ T is canon. The canon, don't disapprove with the canon. Is NOT trying to disagree with the idea of Clerith ?


CoT. "I'll have you by my side, starting from now."
"I wanted someone to notice me." "Who?" "You, that's who."
"I have so many things I want to tell you. I just can't find the words."


The ones in red, can you put the quote in fill ? the one in blue, that was Cloud's emotions as a child/ young teenager :/

Yeah, he liked somebody seven years before the game begins.


Because there ARE two versions. Just like there are three versions of the Getting Yuffie sequence, the getting Vincent Sequence, two versions of the Stopping the train sequence, and multiple versions of the Sister Ray sequence.
But they ALL have a singular version that's actually the one that happened in continuity. For the Highwind, that's high affection.
It's a notable scene for a reason.


No it's not. Getting Yuffie and Vincent is canon, because it's been proved by ACC. Vincent being in the party with the Sister Ray sequence is proved by DOC.

The High Affection Highwind has NOT been made canon by other FF VII games.

Now take a look at Yuna. And also at Yuna. Apparently, Yuna and Tidus isn't canon, because Yuna and Tidus is.
Are we seriously using disc/ cover placement on a DRAGON QUEST game for this? How about how they're arranged in the ultimanias? Like in the u20 Character where they're always shown next to each other.


Loool. If you've played FF X which I don't think you've had. You'll know that Tidus and Yuna don't get together because Tidus is a dream and he fades away.

In FF X- 2 Tidus comes back, therefore making Yuna x Tidus canon.

And it's not a fucking DQ game. It's a Square Enix puzzle game, get your facts right.

No. It means the version is APATHETIC and SHOWS NO FEELINGS. Look. THE High version IS ONE OF THE FOUR IMPORTANT SCENES FOR FINAL FANTASY VII. It is the standard version. The low version is listed as the deviation.
High version HAPPENED.

Really ? When did SE say that ? :/

They aren't. As much as Rikku/Paine would be hot, it's acanon. Plus, the box art shows a pattern with Tifa Closer and Aerith further away, PLUS PLUS it's a DRAGON QUEST PARTY GAME.
Honestly, shits should not be given about it, but if they are, Cloud and Tifa have a bunch more in game chatter than Cloud and Aerith. Aerith chats most with Angelo from DQ8.

Omg. The game shows the official FF pairings together. Squall/ Rinoa and Tidus/ Yuna. And Cloud is next to Aerith.

If you think that the game shows everysingle character standing next to each other is a canon pairing, then you believe too then that Tifa x Vivi is canon.

>>';

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I've never seen anyone properly refute this quote:

(insert quote here)

Me either.

The only response I've ever seen is, "Well if that's true then why this and why that? It contradicts what happened here!" and so on ... no one has properly refuted without just yelling "CONTRADICTION!" and that tells me right there that this quote is very important. You can't say "Doesn't say what feelings" and the past progressive means Cloud was telling her about the feelings he was holding at the time, so you can't say "past feelings."

My point exactly, with regards to not even asking her to try and refute me. It cannot be done outside of the sort of thing you just described, so why bother?

So if someone wants to say the HA version of the highwind scene isn't canon, I'm okay with that. Cause the Lifestream scene isn't optional and that quote can't just be ignored.

I don't care much about the HA vs LA argument either. Just making a point, really, about hypocrisy in debates by way of glossing over half the shit people say and then accusing them of same.

 

[Master Bates]

How exactly is how shy Cloud was at 7 or how attentive to her neighbours Tifa was at 6 a good indicator of how much they love each other as adults?

It isn't, hence I don't know why someone's making a fuss out of this.

Moreover, yeah Cloud was shy, yeah Tifa didn't really get it at the time. That's not the way things remained until he announced he wanted to be in SOLDIER. Tifa's mom died shortly after that scene, Tifa went up to the mountain to go join her, her friends deserted, Cloud followed her, bridge collapsed, Tifa went into a coma and forgot this ever happened when she woke up, Cloud was fine and was blamed by the villagers for bringing her up there and Tifa's "friends", fully knowing the truth of the matter followed suit.

How it is Cloud's fault that he had horrible childhood is beyond me. Tifa should know better, her friends should be better friends, not desert her or tell the truth when they did, Tifa's dad and the others shouldn't jump to conclusions, Cloud's the only one in that village that did the right thing.

Anyway after that Cloud started getting into fights and somewhere down the line Tifa, who didn't know any of this beyond that her daddy thinks Cloud is bad news, started to like Cloud. I dunno how that happened, I do know that flashback isn't exactly a good indicator of how Cloud behaved for the next 7 years, in which Tifa started to like him.

Hence I said "partly" his fault. Look, I am not blaming him for the things beyond his control. When I said he had unpleasant childhood, what I was referring to is his relationship with the children in Nibelheim. He was shy, he wants IN, but he didn't take any effort to be IN (except that one time when Tifa's momma died, which he was allowed to be IN when he ASKED).

Now, how he wasn't IN the group is Tifa's fault is beyond me, which was what Cloud (the TLS member) was arguing for.

On a different note: Belated Happy Birthday~

No it's not. You would feel shy and unconfident too, if the other kids told you that he can't join their group. You think that he hasn't the balls to ask them to join, but he has, otherwise clearly he wouldn't know that they would exclude them. You can't blame somebody for having low self esteem after being rejected. He wasn't excluding himself, the boys in Tifa's group told him that he couldn't be apart of Tifa's friendship circle.

The only time he asked to join was the day Tifa's mudra died, then he was allowed IN. Prior to that, he just stood on the sidelines without any noticeable effort like, "hey, can i play with you little fuckers?"

And then the bridge accident happened and the town considered him bad news. What did poor Cloud do? Instead of proving them wrong, he acted the part. He picked fights with other kids. Hence, the self-exclusion.

Tifa's Friends- No, you can't join us. You can't join our group.

Young Cloud- Uhm- Okaay but I really like Tifa...

Fanfiction.

Tifa: Hey Aerith, let's be friends.
Aerith: Sure. Now what do you say we look for a room and get on with the "getting to know each other" part of our friendship and let's ditch that loser Cloud?
Tifa: That would be lovely.

*insert porn music*

Hey, I can do it too.

And you STILL think that it's Cloud's fault that he got rejected?

Yes. Yes, I do.

It's not romantic. Tifa was only interested in wanting to be saved one day.
Yeah Tifa says that he was cute, but that was way after the promise was made.

Back at square one.

1) Yes, wanting to be saved by your knight in shining armor one day is romantic.
2) "You were so small then... and cute". And why does this even matter? xDDD

What ?

You can continue loving someone, even after they are dead. Think about it. Would you cease to love someone simply because they died? I would certainly hope not!

Hunny, not arguing with that but this was your post (and because someone loves the colors):

I also feel like AC has destoryed my vision for a Cloti future.

AC has destoryed my vision for a Cloti future.

my vision for a Cloti future.

Cloti future.

future.

If I could only make the last word glittery, I would have already done that but unfortunately, I don't have the mad skillz.

They where never together to begin with. You can say that maybe they might get together, but that doesn't make any sense if you get the low affection HA scene.

"Although there's a lot to Tifa's character, she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man." - Nojima from the Reunion Files pg. 20

How is she "a woman left behind by a man" when the man was never together with her to begin with?

Hence, the low affection version is not canon because it doesn't make sense with the canon story of the compilation. See, there's what you call context. xDDD

And please let's not go over the whole "koibito" fiasco again because I swear I'm going to cut a bitch. I believe the whole debacle has been beaten to a pulp it's ridiculous.

I've read Case of Tifa. And I didn't really see anything Cloti about it. Unless there's a second Case of Tifa that only Clotis know about ? >>

IMO, I saw that Tifa loves Cloud like a Mother loves a son, like how Quistis loved Squall as a beloved sibling.

Holy Cow!!! I was talking about the time frame! In the span of 2 years, Cloud certainly DID NOT spend MOST of his time in Aerith's church, because Case of Tifa shows him going home to his family before his contract with Geostigma.

Because Cloud expressing his desire to be with Tifa in a "different way than before" is not a Cloti moment.

Re: "MOTHER" I'm not even commenting about it. It's as absurd as the "koibito" word it's no longer worth debating. Okay, maybe not as bad as the "koibito" one but you get my point. xDDD

No. He had Geostigma and he ran to Aerith. Hence going to her church. Did he run to Tifa when he got sick, no he didn't.

Cloud + Geostigma = Cloud dying ----> family sad ----> family hurt ----> Cloud wants to protect family from being hurt ----> Cloud runs away ----> Cloud feels guilty for past sins because of Geostigma ----> feels he needs to be forgiven by the figure of his failures ----> goes to her church for penance

Connect the dots. And please do not look at things in isolation. Fit them to context.

No. In your opinion, in the Cloti opinion. Cloud loves Tifa. But it's not official.

No, not the Cloti opinion but what the canon dictates. See: "For the One I love" page. AND DO NOT EVEN MENTION ABOUT THE "BUT AERITH'S PIC IS THERE"! THAT ARGUMENT IS AN ABOMINATION.

"Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a 'whole'

Aerith clearly states here that the reason why many souls don't return to the planet is because they love someone among the living and/or are loved in return by one of the living. Aerith retains her consciousness because of her love for Cloud (and the fact that she lives on in his subconsciousness); Cloud seeks out the flower fields, spends time in them, picks flowers from them, and takes beaucoup pictures of them because of his love for Aerith and the fact that he can see/hear/interact with her there.

Must. resist. urge. to. snap.
Holy skidaddledums! No one's saying Aerith doesn't love Cloud. The whole subject of the LTD is about "Cloud's feelings", not Aerith's nor Tifa's.

But you are disagreeing the idea of Clerith, because you believe that Cloti is canon. If you think that C/T is canon, then C/A can't be together.

... *blinks*

Well Cloud says nothing about that to Tifa. So much for Tifa being Cloud's true love huh ?

Tell that to the "For the One I love" page and to several official statements saying "that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match/or some other variation of the quote".

No. Did you ignore what I posted ? The Ultimania basically says that there is " 2 versions of the conversation before the final battle ".

You are the one who does the ignoring, not me. All you ever say is that "no, HA is not canon" while only providing quote/s that only acknowledges a variation of the scene yet not disputing with the notion that the HA is canon.
I no longer know how to put this in simpler words so that you may understand. Well whatever. Whichever makes you sleep at night.

Also if C/A is canon, then how come Cloud and Tifa are paired together with the rest of the FF official couples?

Stopped reading for 10 minutes after I got to this part, esp. with the pic. Baby, I love you so please do not do this to yourself. It saddens me. I am simply astounded and at a loss for words with this... "ultimate proof" of yours. Not only is that game not made by the same creators and team from FFVII and Kingdom Hearts, it's also totally irrelevant. Not even debating this one. xDDD

On a side note: BOOYAAAAAHHHHH!!! I KNEW IT!!! THERE REALLY IS SOME RIKKU-PAINE ACTION!!! YESSSSSHHHHHHH!!!
Another note: Fuck! I don't know that fugly guy next to gunner Yuna. >.>

And as to the rest of your post:

I apologize if this sounds rude, but I'm not even reading. Not only is it a simple copy-pasta but it also reeks of classic Devotion arguments that has been countered dozens and dozens and dozens of times already. I have not the patience for this kind of thing.

Sorry bhebhe. I'm just so sorry.

 

[Dashell]

Again, it IS basic english. We're in a debate. You don't ignore evidence in a debate just because you're not fond of it.

LOL LOL LOL THIS IS HILARIOUS !

SPITS OUT DRINK. YOU DON'T BELIEVE HOW MUCH I'M LAUGHING RIGHT NOW.

loooooool.

About this, I just want to say that everyone here is guilty of that , including myself. Someone either says, "That's old and outdated" or "That's new and doesn't count!" or something. I mean we've all done it. I don't think it's necessary to point that out.

EDIT:
And JFC you guys, so Cloud goes to Devotion to help her with debates, what's the problem here? I've come here to help with debates I've had elsewhere. Is it just that she's not doing her own research or what?

 

[Dashell]

BTW, Cloud, do you feel Aerith's date is canon because it's referenced in Dismantled? Just curious.

 

[Kobato]

Yeah, piss people off by being deliberately obfuscatory. That's a great strategy. Except the part where it's fucking stupid. That has gotten people killfiled on sight before, and driven off of numerous forums.

I'm not trying to piss people off here on purpose. Whatever I quote just seems to come out in dark blue. I've tired to change it several times, but it doesn't change.

@ Que. Imao ! But yeah what's the point in debating if nobody can speak back ? xD

Yes... did you read mine? I was never let into the cool kids club at school either, but you know what? I never asked. I was never invited to parties either... cause I didn't make myself known.

Yes but .... this is Cloud's childhood. And he asked them if he could join.

This doesn't say he ever asked and wasn't let in, just that he wasn't let in. Do you have evidence that he asked? And before you post that quote again, where in that quote does it say he asked? Because all that quote says is that he wasn't let in and it could have been because he didn't ask or didn't make himself known.

Yeah but how would he know that he wasn't awolled into the group ? Cloud isn't a mind reader xD I

Please pay attention to the part I bolded.
I understand you believe that it's saying cloud asked and wasn't let in, but by the same two paragraphs I posted, isn't it possible someone could believe Cloud never asked and that's why he was never let in?

Thankyou. It's possible, but opinion he asked and they said no. Because how else would he know that they excluded him ?


And I'm asking about the rule that says only canon couples are shown on CDs.

It's a Square Enix game. and It shows the canon couples Tidus/ Yuna and Squall/ Rinoa together. And Cloud is not next to Tifa, he's next to Aeris.

I guess this doesn't count either ?

What about Cloti merchandise? Does that count or no?

That wasn't Clerith merchandise. That was a official SE game.

Does this count? What about this? This shows present day Cloud and Tifa next to each other and Crisis Core Aerith and Zack next to each other. We know Crisis Core Aerith was with Zack, so that's canon, so by the same logic you used for the CD, Cloud and Tifa must be canon right?

Does this mean anything? Or that image in the 10th AU that has Cloud and Tifa's figurines next to each other?

-The one with the key chains has Tifa and Kadaj next to each other, not Tifa and Cloud xD

- The one with the motorbike, Tifa rides Cloud's motorbike during AC. It's a reference to the movie. Plus other FF couples are not there.

- Cloud looks close to Aerith as well.

no really, please don't just ignore what I said. A quote said that Cloud and Tifa are Denzel's parents. Without saying it contradicts something else, do you have any other thoughts?


Though Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him. Yeah they're his parents, but they're not married and they're not really real parents.

Tifa '' I guess this only works for real families. "


I was sarcastically replying to Ryu's "It's out dated" comment. PLEASE pay attention to who I replied to?

It didn't look sarcastic because there no emotions saying this was a joke. Not even the Cookie Monster.

 

[Dashell]

@ Que. Imao ! But yeah what's the point in debating if nobody can speak back ? xD

I'm sorry.. .what?

and I know you aren't trying to piss anyone off, but it would be most helpful if you'd use quote tags to reply. It makes it so much easier.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

There was lots of good stuff in this post, but my brain is mushy and a little achey from the last couple of Clerith "supporting" posts I've read. So this is all that I can be arsed to remark on atm.

You are the one who does the ignoring, not me. All you ever say is that "no, HA is not canon" while only providing quote/s that only acknowledges a variation of the scene yet not disputing with the notion that the HA is canon.

So I'm not the only one seeing this then. Good.

 

[Master Bates]

EDIT:
And JFC you guys, so Cloud goes to Devotion to help her with debates, what's the problem here? I've come here to help with debates I've had elsewhere. Is it just that she's not doing her own research or what?

Maybe. I don't know but I've already read a lot of Devotion stuff before and I think I am just tired of reading them again. And maybe because I don't like debate by proxy. I have nothing against copy-pasting quotes, but come on... the whole essay? I mean, I can just go look at somebody's essay you know and paste it here without even reading it so long as it points to a Cloti conclusion but... heck... It's not my style, Miss Q.

I'll let the others debate against that if they want. I'm not comfortable with that kind of thing. No offense.

 

[Dashell]

She didn't post a full essay though. And I mean the people who write for devotion want people to use their stuff like that. At least I think so. I've never seen them say "Guys do NOT use this when debating!" so I think it's fine.

and I'm sure the Cleriths have heard all of the Cloti stuff a million times as well. they feel the same way. You don't think we don't sound like broken records to them? Has anyone posted anything new in here recently? If so I missed it...

BTW, Cloud, as for my other question...would like a quote that said a conversation Cloud and Tifa have in FFVII relates back to the HA highwind scene make that canon? Or do you believe there's no canon no matter what?

 

[Celes Chere]

Have you read Case of Tifa at all Tiff ?

Yes, Ma'am. Don't ask me if I've read something... because I have. I've read everything besides Dismantled. (( Mostly because I don't know where to read that one ))

It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.

&#8220;Shall I join you?&#8221; There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
&#8220;I want to drink alone.&#8221;
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, &#8220;Then drink in your room.&#8221;

Yeah that sounds like they're REALLY getting along swell. >>

Couples get into arguments. That's life. Also, the creators stated that because they go through a rough time and over come it, it draws them closer together. I guess that's really all I have to say on the matter. In the end, Cloud still mentions that he will be okay as long as Tifa is by his side and that they start a new life together. He also agrees that Aerith brought Denzel to them, not just to him.

Actually Cloud is seeking forgiveness from Aerith and Zack. That quote is rather ambiguous. You could either see that he's keen to live with Tifa, or he's trying to tell tell Tifa that's he's happy about living a new life with a friend.
I assume the second.

Cloud is not seeking forgiveness from Zack. What does Cloud need his forgiveness for? It's Aerith whom he feels let die. He felt that was his fault. Zack willingly went out and sacrificed his life which caused Cloud to break down emotionally, take parts of his personality, which eventually lead to a strong guilt. New life with a friend? Come on now. You don't just go up to your friend and say that. Especially with his line saying it's different when Tifa says "But I've always been with you". Not to mention everything calling them family, calling Tifa the mother of the family, the important woman, the woman that knows Cloud the most AND separates her from allies as just "Tifa" to Cloud.

ALL the canon couples in the Ultimanias don't have any side notes, because they're canon. The Highwind high affection has a side note, meaning that it's not canon.

Okay then I guess SE is lying to us when they say that Tifa and Cloud share their mutual feelings together, and become a family. *stare*

Don't be such a smartass.

Quuuurl, excuse me?
Don't tell me what and what not to do.

Omg, then I guess that Quistis is a creeper too ? Because she sees Squall as a beloved sibling. OMG INCEST >>

Haha, with Quistis it was different. She admitted she was confusing her feelings of love with the desire to act as Squall's sibling and that her feelings were still confused even after she admitted that. Tifa never says that she confused her feelings of love with feelings of a Mother, she merely got a Motherly feeling when a certain event happened. Cloud calls Aerith 'Mother' are you going to tell me that Aerith is actually seen as a 'Mother' by Cloud? Of course you're not, so I hope now you'll see where I am coming from. Tifa loves Cloud with all of her heart, and if you want me to prove the feelings aren't motherly then I will.

Oh my gawwwwwd.

LIEK OMMMGG TTTLY?1 NO WAII?!?!?!?!111

The CD shows the official FF pairings together.

Lol, okay then go play this

OMG CANON.

Play Dissidia too. Cloud and Tifa have some pretty good dialogue and stand next to each other... a lot of the time! :'D

If you think that the CD only shows couples then you're sadly mistaken. Better start shipping Vivi x Tifa then, if you think like that.

Cool. You debunked your own logic. Saves me time. XD

Now show me a picture of Cloud and Tifa embracing each other.

Cloud and Aerith never embraced either. 8I

 

[Dashell]

Yes but .... this is Cloud's childhood. And he asked them if he could join.

I'll address this in a second

Yeah but how would he know that he wasn't awolled into the group ? Cloud isn't a mind reader xD I

Maybe he was waiting for an invitation?

Thankyou. It's possible, but opinion he asked and they said no. Because how else would he know that they excluded him ?

Again maybe he was waiting for an invite. But you said seeing it another way was possible, so let's just agree to disagree on that one.

It's a Square Enix game. and It shows the canon couples Tidus/ Yuna and Squall/ Rinoa together. And Cloud is not next to Tifa, he's next to Aeris.

Okay let's work with this then. What about the cover?

Has Cloud between Aerith and Tifa.

Or the cover for the special:

The cover shows Squall and Riona next to each other, and in the same position Cloud and Tifa with Aerith a tad off to the side.

or here:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...rv1JGB5voOKz_W3z8IpEOaeTosF5GBgwQHq0rPc0EyjMA

Again, we have Cloud next to Tifa.

and again:

and again:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/frmbuf008.png/sr=1

EDIT
and again:

Or the official site:
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/games/ps2/itastsp/

We have, Tidus next to Yuna, Squall next to Riona, and look who Cloud is next to.

But those all show canon couples right? So you sure about that Clerith being canon cause of this?

-The one with the key chains has Tifa and Kadaj next to each other, not Tifa and Cloud xD

- The one with the motorbike, Tifa rides Cloud's motorbike during AC. It's a reference to the movie. Plus other FF couples are not there.

- Cloud looks close to Aerith as well.

Or maybe merchandise doesn't mean much when it comes to the LTD?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Or maybe merchandise doesn't mean much a god damned thing when it comes to the LTD, unless specifically marketed as such?

I won't say fixed, cause I don't wanna out and out put words in Q's mouth on this issue. But it looks right to me.