Yeah it's from Dismantled Ceci/ Ryu.
Do you have a picture of the page? I vaguely recall the line, but I don't recall it being Cloud saying it.
Don't know, never seen Star Wars. So can't really say.
Don't need to- actually, no, you do NEED to, but it's not required to understand my point, which is that thinking someone's hot is different from thinking they'd make a good romantic partner, and yet another thing entirely to persist in romantically loving a dead person to the exclusion of all others.
You mean Aeris and Tifa ?
I mean real people. Who will at this moment remain nameless.
REALLY bad Kevin Coster flick. Probably not worth watching just to get the reference.
You mean that supporting Clerith as a fanon is okay, but you must see Cloti as the canon ?
Something of that stripe, yes. The narrative must be seen as the narrative.
Facts. We see this whole shebang as getting to the facts.
Whut ? Can somebody translate Ryu's sentences into basic english ? XD
That IS basic english. Being Neutral doesn't mean you have to refuse to come to a conclusion or sit in the middle. It means allowing the evidence to lead you to a conclusion without trying to force it.
WHUT ?! Say when Sephiroth, Rufus, or Hojo on a 'affection ' to her ! I guess Sephiroth x Aeris is canon after all ?
Tseng. Reno. Rude. The Player Turk- whichever one it is- all basically fudge their mission parameters because they like Aerith.
Incidentally, you ignore the point that even Cid took a shine to her. Liking Aerith is par for the course.
NO !
/ feels creept out.
Zaaaa-ck... Tiff... heeeelp ><
Creeped out.
And rules about mudwrestling are rules about mudwrestling.
Someone from Gamefaqs. Arguments boiled down to 'There's porn of Tifa, ergo she's a slut.' And those were her best ones.
Whut ?
/ not sure if what to debate with you anymore >>';
The GIFT, which is linked in the text of the reply, says that you take someone, give them a soapbox and remove their fear of reprisal, and you end up with people spouting utter tripe all the time.
Prove this ! Because I don't remember this happening ! I remember Tifa crying and being really upset around her mates, and Cloud shyly wanting to come inside, but he was worried that Tifa's friends where going to exclude him again. No, Cloud didn't do the excluding.
Tifa's friend turns to her and asks if she wants to let Cloud in. Next we see, Cloud is with the group. QED.
As for Cloud did the excluding, HE was the one picking fights.
Omg. He did hide away. When Tifa's mother died, he wanted to come inside but he was worried that he would be rejected again.
Rejected... AGAIN? Where in the text does it indicate Cloud had even tried to get into the group previously?
He only started getting into fights when he felt weak and hard on himself after he failed to save Tifa from Mt Nibel.
Which doesn't mean he was willfully excluded from the group beforehand. It ALSO means that for the majority of his time, HE was the instigator. Remember, Tifa was 7 when her mom died.
I've tired countless times Cecil. But they all say that I'm unhelpable.
You have SHIT proffesionals, then.
Again, I've tired to get help. But they all see me as unhelpable.
You have a SHIT support network, then.
You mean the Dismantled quotes ? Well he does say it, in the Dismantled book, which has different quotes from the Original game.
Which STILL don't say romance.
Whut ? Translate into basic english please.
Again, it IS basic english. We're in a debate. You don't ignore evidence in a debate just because you're not fond of it.
'Lita' should play the princess because she has the most 'talent' (Mako/Biggest Breasts)
Uranus and Neptune are 'cousins' in the dub. This did a bad job of erasing their lesbianism.
Sorry, can't begin the mudwrestling match nude.
Yes.
Yeah but that's just Tseng. Ryu said that the enemy had a affection for her, and I assumed that, that meant Rufus, Sephiroth and Hojo. Tseng is just one person. Rude was the enemy and he had a affection for Tifa. So yeah xD
Tseng had an attraction towards Aerith. The turks, rather uniformly, had an affection for her.
But duly noted that you default 'affection' to romantic affection.
Why not feelings, as in the case of 'mutual feelings?'
Not that I fully agree with the word "NOT" there, though.
That he does is a substantive case I and most others here are not making, save for concessions that basic attraction is more than possible.
In the words of Friday- Just the Facts, Ma'am.
Yes, I do remember something like that and also a bit about TifaXAerithXHojo something. Something about Tifa wanting to kill the guy... or maybe I was imagining thigns... I dunno. It has been so long since I've read parts of the Dismantled and I have not even see a fully translated scan of the entire book after many years of searching. With new materials surfacing, I finally gave up looking. Besides, doesn't new information overrule the old?
That's generally how it's understood, with some exceptions. Preponderance of the evidence is another method.
Oh well... there goes my lifelong dream of finally getting laid.
You'll get more chances. Incidentally, you'd have been wearing a Bikini too. The rules are very strict on that front.
NO WONDER I HAVEN'T--- AWGAWDS!!! My lost time, give it back! D:
Part of the problem was that back in the day, things you had translated were YOURS, GOLLUM GOLLUM and so most people only got secondhand scraps of translations with no prime source documentation. It's STILL a problem, honestly. Just one solved by large book dumps.
Oh good! So I was not imagining things. xD
Well, you are, but that just means the giant scorpions on your nose AREN'T REAL.
No Cloud didn't exclude himself from the group. He was shy, and he WANTED To be apart of the group, but they would never let him in. Uhm, ooookay, so it's Cloud fault that he's shy ? It's Cloud's fault that he wanted to be apart of Tifa's group but they never let him in ?
The one time we see Cloud try to get in, he gets in. Where's 'they never let him in,' exactly?
Tifa "But we were children, back then."
(He turns away slowly.) "...I know. I'm the one that was stupid. I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group. (He turns to face Tifa dead-on.) Then later... I began to think I was different..."
And he also blames himself for being stupid. You know, admitting some culpability for why he wasn't 'allowed into the group.'
Also, please try and format your posts a bit better.
It's fact that Tifa SHOWED NO INTEREST in Cloud, until he mentioned that he wanted to become a Solider.
Err, yes. Because she'd done something to make himself stand out. Incidentally, you're trying to use 'didn't take notice of' and 'wasn't interested in' in very specific ways, instead of other equally valid ways that coincide with the idea of childhood friendship and then later becoming romantically interested in him.
Yes. It's about whether Cloud loved Tifa or Aerith. But I'm saying that it's possible that he could of had feelings for Both. It's not impossible.
Your claim. Get to supporting it.
You can still love somebody when they're gone you know. Plus AC Cloud and AC Tifa don't really get along that well. Cloud spends most of the time away, he refuses to call Tifa, and he calls Aerith's church " His Place ".
AC Cloud doesn't get along with ANYONE well. He's so bad he's closed himself off from everyone, EVEN TIFA. The point is HE'S GETTING OVER THAT SHIT.
And that phrase is the generic 'my location' usage of my place, not 'my personal place.' And yes, there's a distinction.
Yeah but if he loved Tifa don't you think that he would share everything that's happening to him ? No, instead he runs towards Aerith.
He keeps things from her because he does not wish to burden her with her problems. "They're my problems, I have to work them out." He only goes to Aerith because she can solve those problems by offering him forgiveness. Absolution. He wants to be free from guilt. She, as one he has wronged and the symbol of the others, can give him that.
What ? Cloud is expressing how lovely and beautiful Aerith is. If it was optional, then it wouldn't be in Dismantled. Dismantled makes it canon.
What? No. He's expressing how amazing it is that she's still INNOCENT in MIDGAR, and commiserating that he lost his innocence a long time ago.
Full quotes. Context. they matters.
What I'm saying is that the original plotline and storyline has been changed from the OG.
It's been added to. But as far as the LT goes, shit's been pretty consistent all through.
About the Highwind high affection being canon. No. It's not.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_y5BQ024xgCA/S6R6A23rz7I/AAAAAAAAAC4/jg2Agb4GdIU/s1600/hw2.jpg
What it says there. Translated by Que.
"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."
And the U20 lits the High Highwind as a notable scene of the game. 8 places, U20 included, list Cloud and Tifa exchanging mutual feelings under the highwind. Tifa's iconic line from the high highwind scene is referenced as a character quote. It happened. That there's a deviation notation means there's another scene you can get here.
Put another way- It's a deviation that you can bring Tidus back, or leave him dead in 10-2. By your logic, Tidus didn't come back because there's a deviation.
In another example, it is listed what happens if you bring Vincent to the Sister Ray. These events are still canon.
Sure you can argue Tifa has a say in her small group and she could have invited Cloud, BUT, HOW THE HELL WOULD SHE KNOW HE WANT TO BE IN THE GROUP WHEN HE DOESN'T MAKE IT OBVIOUS?!
And the one time we see that he tries, and she's asked, he's in.
I dunno, buddy, but when I see the words "having a future", I do not consider being with someone dead as one of it. Not arguing about love after death here, just the thing about "having a future with". ;D
Plus, Cloud and Tifa have a future together. Period, end of, Creator comments and everything.
No shit?
Sure they had problems, but what couples don't? xDDD
But here's the thing, they're still together in the end.
A few days/weeks over a couple of years is most of his time. Gotcha. Also: Case of Tifa, it helps. 
He was deliberately cutting ties from his family and friends because he wants to protect them from himself.
Case of Tifa: Revised Translation. Nothing about "his place". I can't really read Japanese so I guess this is a matter of translation. Can't further support myself here.
The Japanese uses- IIRC- ore no basho, which has more the meaning 'my location' than 'my personal space.' I have heard it used in Japanese shows when reporting current position.
He loves her and his family that's why he ran away from them. To protect them from the pain of losing him and carrying his burdens. I know, it's stupid. I don't actually agree with Cloud's actions but come on, Cloud's that way.
But of course. It is she who he needs forgiveness from, albeit he doesn't really need it, but he feels a need to be forgiven by her. That's why he went to her place for penance. Not out of lingering devotion.
Oh shit! Now it seems I am disagreeing with the idea of Clerith, but mind you, I am simply stating my understanding of the canon.
The canon, as it stands, disagrees with the idea of the pining for the flower girl version of Clerith. Cloud's own words indicate he wants forgiveness from Aerith. Not romance. In either version.
When I said "Cloud's feelings", I meant "Cloud's romantic intent". The most we can get from that quote is that he is attracted to her. Does he love her then? Does he intent to be romantically involve with her? AMBIGUOUS.
Maybe he just wants to pick her pocket full of posies before giving her a ring around the rosie.
No it's not. You would feel shy and unconfident too, if the other kids told you that he can't join their group. You think that he hasn't the balls to ask them to join, but he has, otherwise clearly he wouldn't know that they would exclude them. You can't blame somebody for having low self esteem after being rejected. He wasn't excluding himself, the boys in Tifa's group told him that he couldn't be apart of Tifa's friendship circle.
Tifa's Friends- No, you can't join us. You can't join our group.
Young Cloud- Uhm- Okaay but I really like Tifa...
And you STILL think that it's Cloud's fault that he got rejected ?
I think you're making things up.
Look, let's say that's exactly what happened. Let's say that, as per your reading, Tifa NEVER NOTICED CLOUD AT ALL... How the fuck is she responsible for what the three fuckers do to someone she never noticed?
Well maybe the fact that he went up to them and asked ? Please can I be apart of your group ?
And they said no ?
Canonically, the one time he asked, she said yes.
It's not romantic. Tifa was only interested in wanting to be saved one day.
Yeah Tifa says that he was cute, but that was way after the promise was made.
And she couldn't have been referring to what she thought of him back then?
And again, wanting to be rescued by a hero!= romantic?
WHAT CULTURE doesn't have that cliche? Hell, there's a romantic power ballad from the 80s called 'I need a Hero.'
What ?
You can continue loving someone, even after they are dead. Think about it. Would you cease to love someone simply because they died? I would certainly hope not!
But you can't have a future with them.
Also this line of argument requires a love to exist prior to death as a prerequisite. Get to supporting that.
They where never together to begin with. You can say that maybe they might get together, but that doesn't make any sense if you get the low affection HA scene.
And the LA scene makes no sense if you get the 'hours after Meteorfall' scene in CoT. Or the 'Dude, Tifa's Words aren't the only way' line was risque' interview. Or etc. etc. etc.
Look. Cloud and Tifa confirm feelings. period. End of. HA Highwind. It happened.
I've read Case of Tifa. And I didn't really see anything Cloti about it. Unless there's a second Case of Tifa that only Clotis know about ? >>
IMO, I saw that Tifa loves Cloud like a Mother loves a son, like how Quistis loved Squall as a beloved sibling.
And now how she saw Cloud like the father of the two small children they're taking care of?
... Cloud made a familiar face, like a child who knew a scolding was inevitable
Cloud gazed at Tifa with the expression of a child whose worst secret had just been let out of the bag...
...He's like a child, Tifa thought. While it made her sad that Cloud could see another world she knew nothing about, the idea his world was expanding at all was a welcome one. Yes... Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like. Once she saw Cloud off, Tifa was alone with the new emotions growing inside her and was happy
And then later he's the daddy. OHSHIT, A WOMAN HAS MATERNAL FEELINGS FOR HER LOVER. ALERT THE MEDIA.
Seriously, this was covered like 2 threads ago with Balth and OWD and everyone going 'Yeah, no, that shit's fairly normal'
No. He had Geostigma and he ran to Aerith. Hence going to her church. Did he run to Tifa when he got sick, no he didn't.
Because he was headed for a solution of last resort and did not wish to bother Tifa with taking care of his ass should it fail.
I find that sentence in CoT-Revised about "Cloud's place" to indicate that he may indeed have had his own place besides the Seventh Heaven. Tifa refers to "Cloud's place" as being outside of the Seventh Heaven.
Again, the phrase refers to a present location, not an enduring one.
And look at this in Cloud's profile on the new
ACC website - NA version:
While various versions of his past were intertwined in his memories, Cloud managed to regain an understanding of who he truly is during his journey in Final Fantasy VII.
Despite this, he now forsakes human contact and prefers living alone.
And then he returns to living with Tifa after Advent Children. Your point?
No. In your opinion, in the Cloti opinion. Cloud loves Tifa. But it's not official.
Um... U20 says you're wrong.
Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a 'whole'
Aerith clearly states here that the reason why many souls don't return to the planet is because they love someone among the living and/or are loved in return by one of the living. Aerith retains her consciousness because of her love for Cloud
This is from Maiden, before she is aware, in that story, of the truth of Cloud. Just for context.
Also for context, Aerith doesn't know if meeting Cloud again will make her vanish.
"But does that mean I'll disappear as soon as I meet Cloud? I wonder if that's what's happening or... Is there still something else I've still to do...?"
(and the fact that she lives on in his subconsciousness);
No. NO SHE FUCKING DOESN'T. Not unless she also lives on in the subconscious of Tifa, Yuffie, Barret, Red, Cid, Reeve and Vincent. She lives on in ALL their fucking hearts.
Cloud seeks out the flower fields, spends time in them, picks flowers from them, and takes beaucoup pictures of them because of his love for Aerith and the fact that he can see/hear/interact with her there.
Um. The vast majority of those pictures on his wall are not of flower fields. A number of them are of industrial areas.
And once again referencing CoT, remember how Cloud would tell stories of his travels to the kids? What helps stories? Pictures!
But you are disagreeing the idea of Clerith, because you believe that Cloti is canon. If you think that C/T is canon, then C/A can't be together.
That's disagreeing with the idea that Clerith is a realized pairing, not the idea of the pairing itself.
Well Cloud says nothing about that to Tifa. So much for Tifa being Cloud's true love huh ?
CoT. "I'll have you by my side, starting from now."
"I wanted someone to notice me." "Who?" "You, that's who."
"I have so many things I want to tell you. I just can't find the words."
NOTHING in that, and more, comes close to "Whoa, striking eyes!"
[/B]No. Did you ignore what I posted ? The Ultimania basically says that there is " 2 versions of the conversation before the final battle ".
Because there ARE two versions. Just like there are three versions of the Getting Yuffie sequence, the getting Vincent Sequence, two versions of the Stopping the train sequence, and multiple versions of the Sister Ray sequence.
But they ALL have a singular version that's actually the one that happened in continuity. For the Highwind, that's high affection.
It's a notable scene for a reason.
Also if C/A is canon, then how come Cloud and Tifa are paired together with the rest of the FF official couples ?
I see Rinoa/ Squall, Yuna/ Tidus and whoooooo Cloud/ Aeris ! D:
Where's Tifa ?
She's next to Vivi, who she has no romantic interest in.
Now take a look at Yuna. And also at Yuna. Apparently, Yuna and Tidus isn't canon, because Yuna and Tidus is.
Are we seriously using disc/ cover placement on a DRAGON QUEST game for this? How about how they're arranged in the ultimanias? Like in the u20 Character where they're always shown next to each other.
Also.
The FFVII Ultimania Omega specifically talks in detail about those two versions:
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
The FFVII Ultimania Omega explains what the two versions are in detail. It says that the Low Affection version is apathetic. There are only two versions, so the two versions referred to in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania are obviously the Low Affection and High Affection versions. The FFVII Ultimania Omega also says that the conversation will have strong emotions *when the degree gets higher*. It does not say in either passage that strong emotions are shared when the degree of affection gets low.
Therefore, there are two possible versions. The only time Cloud and Tifa show strong emotions is when the degree of affection gets higher.
SE has never said that one version is canon. Instead, it says in two Ultimania's that there are two versions of the HW scene, and that strong feelings are communicated in *one version only*. One Ultimania even says that one version is apathetic, which means that feelings of disinterest are shown.
No. It means the version is APATHETIC and SHOWS NO FEELINGS. Look. THE High version IS ONE OF THE FOUR IMPORTANT SCENES FOR FINAL FANTASY VII. It is the standard version. The low version is listed as the deviation.
High version HAPPENED.
It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion
Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007
Umm, no. It doesn't mention a face or appearance. It mentions a feeling. In context, that feeling is guilt.
Nomura: The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview
[sigh] And inside everyone else. It's not a LITERAL statement, either. Because Aerith is inside the lifestream.
Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend). ~Case of Lifestream: White
Okay, so sweetheart means lover now? Are we allowing it to mean lover/beloved? Think carefully before you answer.
Also the FF Ultimania has this.
1. Check
Contains information that you must pay attention to the certain scene.
2. Secret
Explains about the secret in the certain scene. It's like the additional part for the game and doesn't affect the main story.
3. Conversation
Contains part of conversation from the certain scene.
4. Hidden Fact
Contains further information that will be revealed later in the game.
5. Human Drama
Contains more info about the certain character.
6. Deviation / Divergence
Contains information about the different result if gamers take different actions.
All scenes that have side notes titled
Check, Conversation, Hidden Fact, and
Human Drama are
indeed default or non-optional, while all scenes that has side notes titled
'Deviation / Divergence' are
optional and based on players' choice, and we focus on this one.
FF III - has the side notes titled 'Human Drama - Sara's Love'
FF IV - already explained on Story Playback (the left side), has side notes titled 'Conversation' right after the screenshot.
FF VI - has the side notes titled 'Check'
FF VIII - already explained on story playback (the left side) and it's FMV, has the side notes titled 'Hidden Fact - The Flower Field that Rinoa is Waiting for'
FF IX - ZidanexGarnet one is from the ending, SteinerxBeatrix one has the side notes titled 'Conversation'
FF X - already explained on Story Playback (the left side), and it's FMV.
And none of them that has the side notes 'Deviation', unlike FFVII.
For comparison, the scenes where Tidus flirts with Lulu or Rikku in Guadosalam and the Tidus' snow motorbike partner (depending on Tidus' actions) in Macalonia have the side notes titled 'Deviation', yet SE didn't put them on this page. Why? Because it's clear that TidusxYuna is canon in the end and there's no need to put that two optional scenes from FFX on
It's different in FFVII where two optional scenes are put together on this page.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7981/20thautotheoneilove.jpg
So, it's clear that SE did that to make it neutral for both sides, and doesn't tell which couple from FFVII is canon.
Hi. This is obviously CP from somewhere else. I hate when people do this. Especially as this is a giant load of unsupported claims. Where, exactly, is it specified that being listed as a deviation means none of them can be the official version?
Okay so then...
Do you have any evidence that Cloud asked to join? You seem to have some evidence of this and I was under the impression he never asked. So... did this happen in the game or are you just assuming?
She's making it up.
Okay, I must have missed it... and I'm sorry, but can you show me where it said that all the canon couples are shown on that disc please? I didn't realize that disc was that important.
They DEFINITELY aren't, as a glance leftward will reveal. Or a glance at the box art will.
Okay so when they say that Denzel sees Cloud and Tifa as his parents... how does that work? Does that make Cloud and Denzel brothers?... so Cloud is both Denzel's brother and father?
:: Plays deliverance banjo ::
But you said she didn't really know so... maybe she just heard all the rumors and believed it? How is that her fault? She should have just gone around asking everyone questions as to what "really" happened that day instead of just believing everyone?
Assuming they told her anything.
EDIT
also:
FFVII is from 97, so that's many years out of date as well. Should we only use stuff after that as well?
Where there's a contradiction, yes, actually. Just like with SW.
But since all the other pairings are next to eachother, it kind of hints towards Cloud and Aerith being one of the FF-couples. But I don't think it's worth debating any further.
They aren't. As much as Rikku/Paine would be hot, it's acanon. Plus, the box art shows a pattern with Tifa Closer and Aerith further away, PLUS PLUS it's a DRAGON QUEST PARTY GAME.
Honestly, shits should not be given about it, but if they are, Cloud and Tifa have a bunch more in game chatter than Cloud and Aerith. Aerith chats most with Angelo from DQ8.
Also, ONCE AGAIN, I ask you to simplify your formatting, Jazz.
*
