The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Celes Chere]

I never use merchandise as proof. It's just stupid to do so.

 

[Kobato]

Ok, what? Just... what?!

Let me tell ya something Cloud, repeatedly asking people if they bothered to read your posts gets a little insulting. Increasing amounts of CAPS LOCK and ?!?! doesn't help matters. Especially as it is you who seems to be overlooking the many statements made by various participants in this thread.

When you have to re- say things many times, it makes you wonder " Are they actually reading what I'm putting down " ? Because what's the point of debating when nobody pays attention to what you put down ?

For a example Gym Leader Devil. I actually asked kindy if members could wait a while, till I was done replying to so many people, before saying anything else. And you and Que ignored this. So how much of what I'm putting down is being ignored ?

I feel like it's like debating with a wall.

For instance, the HA scene under the Highwind IS canonical to the Compilation. You can cherry pick around the games you do or don't like all you want, but it doesn't change word of god statements supported by MORE word of god. Said word of god statements have been enumerated to you several times, I have yet to see a serious and thought out response to those. Maybe in your personal canon the LTD could go either way. Maybe in mine Cloud got some on the side from Yuffie at some point. Neither of these things is the canon of the Compilation itself. You have to deal with that.

I've posted down many things that disproves that the high affection is not canon. Just because you think that it's canon, doesn't make it so.

I'm not avoiding FF VII spin offs, I just meant that they change things from the OG game.

Okay, what you say in the bottom lines really hurts me as a FF VII fan, as a Clerith. Just because Cleriths think that the Highwind high affection is not canon, doesn't mean that we like to " make up our own Final Fantasy couple fantasies "

I thought that you were a nice guy. Maybe I was wrong.

Cleriths just believe in made up fantasies. No wonder the Cleriths don't want to debate here.....

In fact, let's talk about that a bit more. Its the only thing I am going to bring up from here on in this post, so that if you wish to respond to me you have to respond to this issue.

I'm sorry but I don't think that I've ignored things from others ? They're not exactly listening to me, so how come they're not getting the '' telling off '' from you ? No, if I was a Cloti Gym Leader, you wouldn't be treating me this way. The other Clotis can ignore whatever a Clerith says, but when a Clerith ignores something, then it's a sin.

You forget that I'm the only Clerith in the debate, and there's nobody here to back me up on what I'm saying. So it's tough, but I'm trying.

Yes, the page did make mention of the LA version. That was simply a detail stating that there was in fact a second version. It is not saying "we the creators do not know which of these things happened." If the LA had any chance of being canon, it would 100% contradict the word of god from the nice folks who made this game that Cloud and Tifa did express their strong feelings, without words no less, under the Highwind. That only happens in the HA version. Thus, HA version is canon.

No because Ingus x Serah, Rosa x Cecil etc. All of them don't have a side note. Because the scene that they confess their love is canon. The Highwind High affection has a side note, saying that the Highwind scene has two parts to it, depending on Tifa's affection.

Thus, the HA version is not canon.

Now, I would normally invite you to rebuke or disprove that if you can, but I know you cannot do so. I almost hope you don't even try, since most anything you could claim would sound a lot like the classic "the creators don't know what they're talking about/are lying!" arguments. I fully expect this post to be glossed over, as it largely has been previous. But I tried.

"I almost hope you don't even try, since most anything you could claim would sound a lot like the classic "the creators don't know what they're talking about/are lying!" arguments. "

Wow. That's kind of cruel. If you notice what I've been typing down, I've only really said that when it came to C/T being childhood friends, not the whole debate.

I'm really hurt, upset and tearful about what you've said Gym Leader.

 

[Dashell]

Another image, all canon couples and Cloud between both girls:
http://static.minitokyo.net/downloads/23/11/220573.jpg?1275894409

and Cloud next to Tifa again:

I'm beginning to sense a pattern.

EDIT
Dunno if this one is official or not but:

For a example Gym Leader Devil. I actually asked kindy if members could wait a while, till I was done replying to so many people, before saying anything else. And you and Que ignored this. So how much of what I'm putting down is being ignored ?

Uhm... but you posted... and I thought you were done?... I really don't think this is fair here, I thought you meant wait until you post, but I guess you meant "wait until..."... uhm.. what were we supposed to wait for exactly? If you keep on editing how am I supposed to know when you're done?

 

[Master Bates]

I thought the Itadaki Street pic was already bad enough then comes the merchandise? I dunno but that's the last straw for me. I'm going to take my exit. Good day, people.

Edit: @post above. Can't see the pic. Says "hotlinking not allowed"? o_O

Neway, I'm out.

 

[Kobato]

I don't want to debate here anymore. I feel hurt by what Gym Leader said, and I feel like nobody is listening.

I said before " please give me a chance and wait till I was done replying to Master_ Bates, Ryu, Shion and Que ".

But nobody listened.

 

[Dashell]

I don't want to debate here anymore. I feel hurt by what Gym Leader said, and I feel like nobody is listening.

I said before " please give me a chance and wait till I was done replying to Master_ Bates, Ryu, Shion and Que ".

But nobody listened.

No, you're not going to do another one of your temper tantrums and storm off again trying to blame us because the debate didn't go your way.

You POSTED, if you aren't done you should not have posted. I honestly thought you meant wait while you gather up a post, and that's what I did. I waited. You posted. I replied, and then you replied again not giving any indication that you were unhappy with what happened. If you just keep editing and editing, how are we supposed to know when you're done?


You really have no business debating here or anywhere and I'm think it'd be a good idea if you were banned from this thread if you're that upset about all this

 

[Master Bates]

And I guess a bit out of topic, but "cute", as in when Tifa says that she thought Cloud was cute, is usually used between couples in Japan, right? Or am I reading too much manga?

Not really and I think you really have been reading too many shoujo mangas. Neway, nice post.

And to TLS member Cloud: I have now read all of your post (even the ones I skimmed). Just telling so you won't feel you're being ignored. I would'vel ike to comment on them but (aside from I'm already running out of time and I should really be going or someone will kick my shiny ass) I sense that you are already having a hard time replying so I'll just leave it as that.

 

[Kobato]

No, you're not going to do another one of your temper tantrums and storm off again trying to blame us because the debate didn't go your way.

I was NOT going to do " One of my temper tantrums " ! I just said that I wanted to stop debating, and I felt hurt by what Gym Leader said !

Wow, thanks what are good friend you are Que ! Just because I suffer from depressed and is suicidal, doesn't mean that I act like a baby !

People get hurt by what people say sometimes. It's LIFE. It's HUMAN.

I replied in here because I mentioned that Cloud doesn't speak about his emotions when he stabs Sephiroth in Nibelhiem. I replied here to mention that Cloud says that he's angry that Sephiroth took his Mother, Tifa and hometown away !

Did people say that you acted like a baby when you were depressed Que ? Did people say that you acted like you had a temper tantrum when you were in hospital ??

You POSTED, if you aren't done you should not have posted. I honestly thought you meant wait while you gather up a post, and that's what I did. I waited. You posted. I replied. If you just keep editing and editing, how are we supposed to know when you're done? And then YOU REPLIED! I mean come on now, what was I supposed to think here?

I'm not a mind reader Que ! Did I know that It was going to turn out to be so hard ?! I'm the only Clerith debating here with ten or so Clotis !

At first It wasn't really that serious, but then it started to get heated. Did I know that it was going to happen ? Do you think that I can see into the future ? Really ?

You really have no business debating here or anywhere and I'm going to ask the admin staff that you be banned from this topic.

Why ? Because I mentioned that I wanted to stop ? Because I'm depressed in RL ? Because I'm going to "throw a hissy fit ? " Btw, the LTD doesn't belong to you and everybody has a right here to debate the LTD !

And to TLS member Cloud: I have now read all of your post (even the ones I skimmed). Just telling so you won't feel you're being ignored. I would'vel ike to comment on them but (aside from I'm already running out of time and I should really be going or someone will kick my shiny ass) I sense that you are already having a hard time replying so I'll just leave it as that.

Don't bother Master_ Bates because " I'm just a baby that throws tempter tantrums", and going to be banned from the LTD anyway. But thankyou. I'm really grateful <3

It was a pleasure to debate with you, and your username makes me smile <3

 

[Dashell]

I was NOT going to do " One of my temper tantrums " ! I just said that I wanted to stop debating, and I felt hurt by what Gym Leader said !

Wow, thanks what are good friend you are Que ! Just because I suffer from depressed and is suicidal, doesn't mean that I act like a baby !

People get hurt by what people say sometimes. It's LIFE. It's HUMAN.

But you shouldn't be getting hurt by this. You don't know Gym Leader whatshisface. For all you know, he's some 12 year old kid. Wouldn't you feel silly getting hurt by that?

And how do you think I feel? I stood up for you tonight several times and told people that what you were doing was hard, and suddenly I don't listen and you're offended cause I replied to your post. If you didn't want someone to reply, you should have waited to post and if what I did was wrong or whatever, you should have said something sooner.

Did people say that you acted like a baby when you were depressed Que ? Did people say that you acted like you had a temper tantrum when you were in hospital ??

Yes, yes they did. They posted my suicide note on various forums and made fun of me.

I'm not a mind reader Que ! Did I know that It was going to turn out to be so hard ?! I'm the only Clerith debating here with ten or so Clotis !

At first It wasn't really that serious, but then it started to get heated. Did I know that it was going to happen ? Do you think that I can see into the future ? Really ?

That's why I was saying that you need to slow down and if you need to take a day or two to reply it was okay.

Why ? Because I mentioned that I wanted to stop ? Because I'm depressed in RL ? Because I'm going to "throw a hissy fit ? "

Because you're taking it too personally. It should not upset you this much. If it does, then you need to stop, and I think that banning you from the topic might be the only way to get you to stop. See? You came back when you said you were done, right?

If it upsets you and hurts you to the point of tears, then it'd be better if you were banned from the thread so you're not even tempted to look.

 

[Kobato]

But you shouldn't be getting hurt by this. You don't know Gym Leader whatshisface. For all you know, he's some 12 year old kid. Wouldn't you feel silly getting hurt by that?

The internet can still damage. How you would feel if I PMed you telling you that you're dumb, and I bet you're a giant sex offender because you love My Little Pony ?

You'll feel really hurt.

And age doesn't matter. A grandma could walk up to you and say something hurtful, you'll still be hurt what what she said.

And how do you think I feel? I stood up for you tonight several times and told people that what you were doing was hard, and suddenly I don't listen and you're offended cause I replied to your post. If you didn't want someone to reply, you should have waited to post and if what I did was wrong or whatever, you should have said something sooner.

I know and I wanted to thank you for that, but with so many things going on, didn't have a chance. Before I knew it you were calling me a tempter tantrum child.

People kept on posting when I kindly asked to give me five to catch up, and give me a chance to mention a Clerith view on the Cloti opinions.

Yes, yes they did. They posted my suicide note on various forums and made fun of me.

I know. And that's one of the reasons why I'm not happy with you, at all. Because you should know what it feels like, and you've been there before.

You know that being called a baby when you're not mentally happy is not cool. At all.

That's why I was saying that you need to slow down and if you need to take a day or two to reply it was okay.

Thankyou.

Because you're taking it too personally. It should not upset you this much. If it does, then you need to stop, and I think that banning you from the topic might be the only way to get you to stop. See? You came back when you said you were done, right?

Well yes. I have so many Cloti friends here, and I feel like this debate could ruin any sort of friendship with them. So yeah. I'm worried. But I'm not to the point of tears, running out to get the rope upset. >>

Even if I did. People who are suicidal are not childish. And I'm really offended that you thought this way. My uncle died via suicide, by that. You're calling my uncle a baby when he's been through so much shit. He lost people, he lost his own home. And he was a baby ? Sorry but, no.

Do you think that the munchkin who committed suicide in Wizard of Oz was a baby, because everybody treated them badly and told them that a dog that can't use money was going to be paid more them ?

Do you think the many Japanese students in the world commit suicide are babies ? Because they can't cope with the pressure ?

If it upsets you and hurts you to the point of tears, then it'd be better if you were banned from the thread so you're not even tempted to look.

I mentioned before that I don't want to debate anymore, and just want to let Clerith and Clotis thoughts and opinions be.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

When you have to re- say things many times, it makes you wonder " Are they actually reading what I'm putting down " ? Because what's the point of debating when nobody pays attention to what you put down ?

*sigh* Ok, lemme be blunt. Sometimes you do have to repeat yourself in order to get people to reply to a specific point among many. Sometimes one point or another gets lost in the shuffle. Other times, people repeat the same points over and over when they are in fact wrong. People have responded to the quotes and testimony you provided in your posts. Generally, they have easily rebuked your points of late, as they begin to make less and less sense.

For a example Gym Leader Devil. I actually asked kindy if members could wait a while, till I was done replying to so many people, before saying anything else. And you and Que ignored this. So how much of what I'm putting down is being ignored ?

I feel like it's like debating with a wall.

Well, Q asked if it was time to post yet. I just didn't bother waiting, because that's really not how forums work. I learned how to keep up the best I can by just, ya know... trying. And that was back when the LTD moved at double the speed it is today or worse.

And that debating with a wall thing? That most definitely goes both ways. Scroll up to my discussion of your "did you even read X?!" moments to see why.

I've posted down many things that disproves that the high affection is not canon.

No, you have not. You've pointed out that there is coverage of the alternate version of the scene. The fact that there is more than one does not in any way, shape, or form prevent one or the other from being canon. To illustrate, nearly any given fighting game will have individual versions of multiple scenes for each character. Most obvious is the ending, but other scenes also change depending on who you play as too. That does not stop one ending from being canon when the sequel comes out. It does not stop the creators from telling us which scenes by which characters were canon during the initial game. Sort of the same thing here, really. There were two scenes for the Highwind. One happened, by WORD OF GOD, the other was just something players could see during their playthrough.

Just because you think that it's canon, doesn't make it so.

Nope. Its because the creators say so that it is canon, not I nor anyone else.

I'm not avoiding FF VII spin offs, I just meant that they change things from the OG game.

Point to you if true, I may have misinterpreted something I read earlier in the thread. Changes were made in some areas of the rest of the Comp, this is true. Those changes, however, are internal to the story, so like them or not they are what happened until otherwise stated by the Comp or word of god.

Okay, what you say in the bottom lines really hurts me as a FF VII fan, as a Clerith. Just because Cleriths think that the Highwind high affection is not canon, doesn't mean that we like to " make up our own Final Fantasy couple fantasies "

My intent is not to harm your feelings. Trust me, if I wanted to do that, you'd know it. There is no call for such things over an LTD, however. Even in the old days, such as they were, when I threw out insults fairly often, they were meant in jest for the most part.

However, if you are given multiple creator statements, among other evidence, all supporting the canonicity of the HA scene and of Cloti in general and then continue to say "no that didn't happen!" then you are in fact making up your own couple fantasies, in your own words. And there is nothing wrong with enjoying a non-canon pairing. I genuinely enjoy some Cluffie action now and again myself. But I don't go around saying the Yuffie date is canon, or decrying the Highwind scene's canon status.

I thought that you were a nice guy. Maybe I was wrong.

Not so much. Y'see, I like being nice to nice people. I've commented on it specifically in the Makes Your Day thread, in fact. But that doesn't mean I am gonna be nice 100% all the time. I'm more stoic, atm, than anything, but seriously you cannot throw out loads of hypocrisy and nonsense in a debate and expect everyone to be chipper afterward.

TL;DR version of that: I'm a nice guy who knows how to be mean when its called for, but I'm not even doing so atm.

Cleriths just believe in made up fantasies. No wonder the Cleriths don't want to debate here.....

I figured the Cleriths just got bored of the debate for the most part. Plenty of Clotis have had the same issues. There are at least a few Cleriths here on this very forum, they just don't spend much time in here harping about what is and isn't canon, or disputing word of god, whether they actually believe such or not.

I'm sorry but I don't think that I've ignored things from others ? They're not exactly listening to me, so how come they're not getting the '' telling off '' from you ? No, if I was a Cloti Gym Leader, you wouldn't be treating me this way. The other Clotis can ignore whatever a Clerith says, but when a Clerith ignores something, then it's a sin.

That wasn't a telling off. Such is not my place to provide even if I wanted to. That was me pointing out a flaw in your approach. As for your belief that you have not done such? You have repeatedly brushed off word of god statements (quite a number of them, all supporting each other except very early comments by Nomura which have since been replaced) among other points, with the same asinine arguments over and over. Arguments that disprove absolutely nothing. I have observed you doing so multiple times. Now make no mistake, there is no shame in being unable to disprove a statement from the creators. Since, it being their work and all, such a feat is impossible. Other times you have simply failed to respond to these and other points at all. Now, I am willing to chalk up some of those failures to having too much to respond to. It happens to everyone now and then, which is why I did not include others in my reply earlier. But as it seems to be the same two or three points getting lost in the shuffle from you, I tend to suspect that its at least partly intentional.

You forget that I'm the only Clerith in the debate, and there's nobody here to back me up on what I'm saying. So it's tough, but I'm trying.

Point to you on that, being the only person on your side of the debate is hard sometimes. I respect your tenacity in continuing to debate in that situation. I'd respect it more if your arguments were not rapidly devolving into a stereotype of the "classic" Pinker style of debate, but I do respect the effort none the less.

No because Ingus x Serah, Rosa x Cecil etc. All of them don't have a side note. Because the scene that they confess their love is canon. The Highwind High affection has a side note, saying that the Highwind scene has two parts to it, depending on Tifa's affection.

Thus, the HA version is not canon.

Same old argument. And its still wrong. How many of those other couples HAD an alternate scene to take note of? That'd be why they don't have a side note, because there is nothing else to take note of for them. Not because the HA version is non-canon, but because there was only one scene to display in their cases. See above ^ for my explanation about how having two or more versions of a scene does not prevent a single version from being canonical from a story perspective. Especially when it has been so heavily confirmed.

Wow. That's kind of cruel. If you notice what I've been typing down, I've only really said that when it came to C/T being childhood friends, not the whole debate.

Firstly, and this has more to do with the format of the above paragraph when I was writing this out than it does the paragraph itself, you should really work on your quoting. As previously stated by Ryu and Q, it is really a chore to go through and fix this up for a proper quoted reply with the way you do this.

Now for the content of said paragraph: I again am not attempting to be cruel. But seriously now, can you refute what I and others here have stated concerning the canonicity of the HA Highwind scene without falling back on such sentiments as "the creators themselves are wrong!" Because it does not matter if there is a second version of the scene, and the folks writing the guide books feel the need to make note of that fact. One happened. The other didn't. Which is which has been spelled out pretty clearly now.

And, I note, this is just discussing the Highwind scene as I set us up to do. This is not even getting into the many other issues with your argument. Such as the fact that Tifa can apparently only feel like a mother to Cloud, going off of a single motherly feeling in CoT, as if that is the sum of her feelings. As if human beings, fictional or otherwise, are so simple. It is not even touching on your ridiculous insistence that character placement on merchandise of any sort, most egregiously non-Comp material, has any bearing on this issue at all. There is plenty for people to get frustrated with in your posts. Try not to take it so personally when a bit of that frustration leaks out onto you.

Might try being a bit less "Oh my gaaaaawwwwwd!!!" and such as well, and being a bit less commanding when you wish for others to be more serious. These things do not go together, for one thing. If you wish people to stop sassing at you, do not be a smart ass with them first. Then at least your request (and it should be a request, not a command) would have a shred of credibility.

I'm really hurt, upset and tearful about what you've said Gym Leader.

Well, I do hope you feel better. This is just a debate about fictional people on the internet. Its not worth getting so upset about as to cry. And I am not, no matter how you read my posts, making an attack on you. I find your arguments lacking, when they exist at all, yes. I think your conduct could be improved a bit vis a vis what I mentioned one paragraph up. But I sincerely doubt that makes you any kind of bad person/crazy/etc. So don't take it so hard. Take some advice one of the friendliest and most awesome people on this forum once gave to me. When a debate on the internet upsets you that much, just walk away for a bit and remember. It's not life or death in here.

 

[Dashell]

The internet can still damage. How you would feel if I PMed you telling you that you're dumb, and I bet you're a giant sex offender because you love My Little Pony ?

You'll feel really hurt.

I'm being completely upfront and honest here... I'd laugh. When someone I don't know online insults me, or tries to, I laugh. That's just what I do. I'm not going to let the opinion of some person I don't even know bother me.

I know and I wanted to thank you for that, but with so many things going on, didn't have a chance. Before I knew it you were calling me a tempter tantrum child.

People kept on posting when I kindly asked to give me five to catch up, and give me a chance to mention a Clerith view on the Cloti opinions.

I didn't say child, I said you were having a temper tantrum... and honestly, you don't have to be a child to have a temper tantrum. Hell I've had them and I've seen other people here have them. I probably shouldn't have said that, but I was really annoyed that suddenly I was being painted as the bad guy when I was trying to help you all night.

I know. And that's one of the reasons why I'm not happy with you, at all. Because you should know what it feels like, and you've been there before.

You know that being called a baby when you're not mentally happy is not cool. At all.

I know how it feels but you know what? It made me stronger. And that's one of the reasons I don't care what anyone thinks of me.

Even if I did. People who are suicidal are not childish. And I'm really offended that you thought this way. My uncle died via suicide, by that. You're calling my uncle a baby when he's been through so much shit. He lost people, he lost his own home. And he was a baby ? Sorry but, no.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said "baby" "child" or anything. I said temper tantrum. Adults have them too, so no I'm not saying people who are suicidal are children in anyway.

I'm also pretty sure I've said Ryu's had temper tantrums before, and other people too. To me it's just when people get upset and throw a fit. It has nothing to do with being suicidal or even depressed. People get upset, they throw a fit, that's a tantrum.



now look having said all that. I'm not a good person so don't listen to me. I'm a brat, I'm a bitch, I like to get my own way and I have tantrums when I don't get them. So if you want to never forgive me and hate me or whatever, you wouldn't be the first. Just try to calm down a little bit, especially in threads like this. It's not worth getting upset and throwing fits over. (which is NOT something only depressed people do)

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm being completely upfront and honest here... I'd laugh.

My very first thought when Cloud said that was "I know Q. She'd laugh in their face.

@Cloud, you really are taking this too personally. I have no intent to hurt your feelings. And I understand how being suicidal feels. How much harder it can make resisting the impulse to break down. You can have a look at the scars on my wrist sometime if you don't believe that I know. So I know how your depression can magnify what might otherwise just be frustrating into tears, and tears into worse. My feelings and thoughts concerning this debate do not equate to my feelings about you as a person.

If I'm reading her most recent posts (wherein she concedes that her wording was poor and fueled by frustration), that's what Q really meant with the "banned from the LTD" comments. If you're having a hard time dealing with something as trivial as the love lives of fictional characters, then you really need to step back from it.

 

[Octo]

Hai gaiz

Um, I'm not even going to touch all the other stuff thats been going on but I was reading through and a thought occured.

Regarding Tifas friends 'excluding' Cloud. During the Lifestream sequence:

Cloud: "I only used to look up at it from outside."
(The screen flashes white. A teenage Tifa is now sitting on the floor at the foot of her bed, her head bowed on her knees.. Three boys are standing around her.)

Tifa's Friend:
"Hey, look!"
(The camera moves to show Tifa's window. One of the boys looks out of it.)

Tifa's Friend: "Cloud's coming!"

(Through the window, we see Young Cloud come running up the path. The boy turns to Tifa.) "You think he wants to come in?"

http://members.fortunecity.com/sephkatana/ff7stuff/ff7disc2.txt

Now, video of that sequence can be found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yrg8TT6kDs&feature=related (@ about 6.30)

From where Tifa is sitting under the window, she couldn't possibly have seen Cloud approaching the house. If her friends didn't want Cloud in the group, then why did they acknowlege his arrival? Furthermore, Tifa is far too upset to verbally respond here, so somebody else let Cloud in, when they could have just told him to GTFO.

Just a thought, and for the record I don't believe that the strength of Cloud and Tifa's friendship as children has any bearing on their relationship as adults: Just look at the script for Robin Hood Prince of Thieves (Kevin Costner keeps cropping up doesnt he? )

Spoiler

ROBIN: Marian, Marian! My purpose to come here, was not to hurt you. I swore. I swore to your brother that I would protect you.

MARIAN: You can not replace my brother

ROBIN: I do not want to replace him. Marian, I've returned to my home to find it destroyed and my father murdered. And the only explanations for it are the ramblings of an old blind man.

MARIAN: All I remember of you is a spoilt bully who used to burn my hair as a child.

ROBIN: Please allow that years of war and prison may change a man.

 

[Kobato]

*sigh* Ok, lemme be blunt. Sometimes you do have to repeat yourself in order to get people to reply to a specific point among many. Sometimes one point or another gets lost in the shuffle. Other times, people repeat the same points over and over when they are in fact wrong. People have responded to the quotes and testimony you provided in your posts. Generally, they have easily rebuked your points of late, as they begin to make less and less sense.

I'm tired and at the moment I want to grab a machine gun and shoot down any copy of FF VII that exists but okay....

Okay, thanks for the advice. Didn't know this.

Well, Q asked if it was time to post yet. I just didn't bother waiting, because that's really not how forums work. I learned how to keep up the best I can by just, ya know... trying. And that was back when the LTD moved at double the speed it is today or worse.

Well back when I was rapid Cloti I didn't really have the internet, so I'm still kind of Noobish towards the LTD. I've debated a little in Que's forum though, but I had no idea what the LTD was like back in the old days.

I know. But all I asked for was just some time to catch up. That's all. It would of been polite to wait, just for a little while.

Nope. Its because the creators say so that it is canon, not I nor anyone else.

Well the Cleriths believe that SE say it different. We believe that SE say that it's optional and no pairing within FF VII is canon. Not even Cloud x Aerith.

My intent is not to harm your feelings. Trust me, if I wanted to do that, you'd know it. There is no call for such things over an LTD, however. Even in the old days, such as they were, when I threw out insults fairly often, they were meant in jest for the most part.

I have no idea what the old days were like xDD Well saying that Cleriths just make up their own fantasies just because they believe in something different, isn't the nicest thing to say. How would you feel if I said that all Clotis are retards and they're in denial over the HA thing, now you wouldn't like it.

However, if you are given multiple creator statements, among other evidence, all supporting the canonicity of the HA scene and of Cloti in general and then continue to say "no that didn't happen!" then you are in fact making up your own couple fantasies, in your own words. And there is nothing wrong with enjoying a non-canon pairing. I genuinely enjoy some Cluffie action now and again myself. But I don't go around saying the Yuffie date is canon, or decrying the Highwind scene's canon status.

Lol we're not. But W/E Yeah but the whole point of the LTD is to prove to a Cloti that Cloud loved Aeris. xD

Not so much. Y'see, I like being nice to nice people. I've commented on it specifically in the Makes Your Day thread, in fact. But that doesn't mean I am gonna be nice 100% all the time. I'm more stoic, atm, than anything, but seriously you cannot throw out loads of hypocrisy and nonsense in a debate and expect everyone to be chipper afterward.

Well ... just don't go around insulting Cleriths.

I figured the Cleriths just got bored of the debate for the most part. Plenty of Clotis have had the same issues. There are at least a few Cleriths here on this very forum, they just don't spend much time in here harping about what is and isn't canon, or disputing word of god, whether they actually believe such or not.

No. They don't want to debate here because they're worried about being flamed by people here. Most of the Cleriths I know, are still pretty interested in the LTD and they're always looking to anything to try and prove C/T wrong and C/ A canon. They just don't like debating.

That wasn't a telling off. Such is not my place to provide even if I wanted to. That was me pointing out a flaw in your approach. As for your belief that you have not done such? You have repeatedly brushed off word of god statements (quite a number of them, all supporting each other except very early comments by Nomura which have since been replaced) among other points, with the same asinine arguments over and over. Arguments that disprove absolutely nothing. I have observed you doing so multiple times. Now make no mistake, there is no shame in being unable to disprove a statement from the creators. Since, it being their work and all, such a feat is impossible. Other times you have simply failed to respond to these and other points at all. Now, I am willing to chalk up some of those failures to having too much to respond to. It happens to everyone now and then, which is why I did not include others in my reply earlier. But as it seems to be the same two or three points getting lost in the shuffle from you, I tend to suspect that its at least partly intentional.

Okay, well that's your opinion. You believe in the theory that the HA is canon. I'm not " brushing them aside " I'm trying my best to prove them wrong.

Point to you on that, being the only person on your side of the debate is hard sometimes. I respect your tenacity in continuing to debate in that situation. I'd respect it more if your arguments were not rapidly devolving into a stereotype of the "classic" Pinker style of debate, but I do respect the effort none the less.

There's a stereotype Clerith ? D: .... What do they act like ?

Same old argument. And its still wrong. How many of those other couples HAD an alternate scene to take note of? That'd be why they don't have a side note, because there is nothing else to take note of for them. Not because the HA version is non-canon, but because there was only one scene to display in their cases. See above ^ for my explanation about how having two or more versions of a scene does not prevent a single version from being canonical from a story perspective. Especially when it has been so heavily confirmed.

FF X Tidus had plenty. So yeah, proven wrong there.

Now for the content of said paragraph: I again am not attempting to be cruel. But seriously now, can you refute what I and others here have stated concerning the canonicity of the HA Highwind scene without falling back on such sentiments as "the creators themselves are wrong!" Because it does not matter if there is a second version of the scene, and the folks writing the guide books feel the need to make note of that fact. One happened. The other didn't. Which is which has been spelled out pretty clearly now..

Because Cleriths don't believe that SE are wrong Gym Leader. We believe that Clotis are wrong. Unless all Clotis have created FF VII then well.... xD

We believe that SE states that there's no official FF VII couple. No C x T, no C x A, not even Clack or Aerti. It's all up to personal choice.

So yeah, if you like Cloud x Yuffie, then SE is saying, they're canon to you.

And, I note, this is just discussing the Highwind scene as I set us up to do. This is not even getting into the many other issues with your argument. Such as the fact that Tifa can apparently only feel like a mother to Cloud, going off of a single motherly feeling in CoT, as if that is the sum of her feelings. As if human beings, fictional or otherwise, are so simple. It is not even touching on your ridiculous insistence that character placement on merchandise of any sort, most egregiously non-Comp material, has any bearing on this issue at all. There is plenty for people to get frustrated with in your posts. Try not to take it so personally when a bit of that frustration leaks out onto you.

You do realize that Quistis thought that she had strong feelings for Squall, only to realize that she only loved him like a sister to a brother, right ?

About the merchandise, people seem to be getting confused. I didn't post a keychain of Cloud next to Aerith or something like that, I posted a official SE game, with all the FF couples next to each other.

Last time I looked, a game isn't a model of Cloud on a motorbike.

Might try being a bit less "Oh my gaaaaawwwwwd!!!" and such as well, and being a bit less commanding when you wish for others to be more serious. These things do not go together, for one thing. If you wish people to stop sassing at you, do not be a smart ass with them first. Then at least your request (and it should be a request, not a command) would have a shred of credibility.

I can act however I want. Don't tell me how to act.

And If i seem commanding towards others, it's not done on purpose.

Well, I do hope you feel better. This is just a debate about fictional people on the internet. Its not worth getting so upset about as to cry. And I am not, no matter how you read my posts, making an attack on you. I find your arguments lacking, when they exist at all, yes. I think your conduct could be improved a bit vis a vis what I mentioned one paragraph up. But I sincerely doubt that makes you any kind of bad person/crazy/etc. So don't take it so hard. Take some advice one of the friendliest and most awesome people on this forum once gave to me. When a debate on the internet upsets you that much, just walk away for a bit and remember. It's not life or death in here.

Well not what after Que said no. Well that's a opinion. Thanks for the advice.

I'm being completely upfront and honest here... I'd laugh. When someone I don't know online insults me, or tries to, I laugh. That's just what I do. I'm not going to let the opinion of some person I don't even know bother me.

That's really good to hear (=

I didn't say child, I said you were having a temper tantrum... and honestly, you don't have to be a child to have a temper tantrum. Hell I've had them and I've seen other people here have them. I probably shouldn't have said that, but I was really annoyed that suddenly I was being painted as the bad guy when I was trying to help you all night.

What do young children do when they want something ? They have a temper tantrum. In all seriousness, I've never seen a adult have one xD

If It looked like I said that you're the bad guy, it wasn't meant to be like that. At all. I see you as online buddy, so I'll never see you as a villian.

I know how it feels but you know what? It made me stronger. And that's one of the reasons I don't care what anyone thinks of me.

Well people are different and those types of comments make me feel so much weaker, and they don't trigger good things. If they make you stronger than alrighty then, but people are different Que.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said "baby" "child" or anything. I said temper tantrum. Adults have them too, so no I'm not saying people who are suicidal are children in anyway.

Children are common to have temper tantrums.

I'm also pretty sure I've said Ryu's had temper tantrums before, and other people too. To me it's just when people get upset and throw a fit. It has nothing to do with being suicidal or even depressed. People get upset, they throw a fit, that's a tantrum.

Que " You're not going to throw one of your temper tantrums are you, and walk out ? "

You know that I've made a " I'm going to off myself " thread. The way you said it says.

" Omg, you're going to cry and act like a drama queen again ". >>

now look having said all that. I'm not a good person so don't listen to me. I'm a brat, I'm a bitch, I like to get my own way and I have tantrums when I don't get them. So if you want to never forgive me and hate me or whatever, you wouldn't be the first. Just try to calm down a little bit, especially in threads like this. It's not worth getting upset and throwing fits over. (which is NOT something only depressed people do)

Yeah....

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Because Cleriths don't believe that SE are wrong Gym Leader. We believe that Clotis are wrong. Unless all Clotis have created FF VII then well.... xD

But we use words from SE. Not our own words. At least I let the canon facts guide me.

We believe that SE states that there's no official FF VII couple. No C x T, no C x A, not even Clack or Aerti. It's all up to personal choice.

So yeah, if you like Cloud x Yuffie, then SE is saying, they're canon to you.

Good idea. But I think some people use this opinion as an excuse.

 

[Joker]

Here's the deal, there will be no more toleration of any kind of foolishness. If you flame someone, you will be banned. If you troll, you will be banned. If you try and use past events as a weapon against people, you will be banned. Off topic bullshit isn't acceptable either, save the frivolous banter for the clubs please(which might I add, are a haven for whatever their subjects are, if you have a problem with whatever pairing or character the club pertains to, DON'T FUCKING POST any bullshit you have against them). ANYTHING not regarding the LTD and the pairings concerned is off topic, full stop. If you can't keep from doing shit like this, you may as well not even bother posting. Try and circumvent these standards and it will be treated the same as a violation of them. This is not a game.

If it gets so bad that we're banning too many people, we're going to shut down the entire debate for at least a year, but I don't think it will come to that. You people all have it within you to demonstrate basic civility and I expect you to do so. Despite how we may behave sometimes, we are not children.

The premise is simple, discuss the LTD, do it respectfully and civilly, and we will have no problem. Don't, and I will bring the hammer of god down as fast the internet will allow.

All that said, have fun, and don't fuck it up.

The past several pages have been chock-full of stuff that walks up to this cardboard rules sign, tears it down, and then just sort of befouls it - from Quexinos, Grudge, Ryu, and Cloud in particular.

This is the reason these rules exist. Consider this brought to moderator attention.



On topic: where can I find the Case Of [blank]'s to read online? I always see people mentioning them but never bothered/got around to reading them. Not sure how or if it will change my opinion of the LTD (Cloti canon, Clerith potentially possible), but wanted to read anyway.

 

[Elisa Maza]

On topic: where can I find the Case Of [blank]'s to read online? I always see people mentioning them but never bothered/got around to reading them. Not sure how or if it will change my opinion of the LTD (Cloti canon, Clerith potentially possible), but wanted to read anyway.

Some are on this site as well. Homepage and click the "On the Way to a Smile" tag.

Others: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/

 

[Joker]

Cheers! =]

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Well back when I was rapid Cloti I didn't really have the internet, so I'm still kind of Noobish towards the LTD. I've debated a little in Que's forum though, but I had no idea what the LTD was like back in the old days.

Bear in mind, when I say the "old days" I mean like two years ago. I was not involved at the LTD at all before that. So I am not commenting on the worst/most flamey years of the debate or anything, just on my own personal "old days."

Well the Cleriths believe that SE say it different. We believe that SE say that it's optional and no pairing within FF VII is canon. Not even Cloud x Aerith.

You believe the creators say something other than what they actually say, yes. I understand the "there is no canon!" position, having seen it before. And once upon a time, when the only information we had was from back in 97 or so, I would have agreed that the whole issue is up to individual interpretation. It ain't 97 anymore. We've had a lot of info come out since that clearly spells out that Cloud and Tifa are a couple. Mutual feelings confirmed without words. They have a future together. The only person who understands him/he will open his heart to, etc. Canon DOES exist.

I have no idea what the old days were like xDD Well saying that Cleriths just make up their own fantasies just because they believe in something different, isn't the nicest thing to say.

It is actually not particularly rude of me, from my perspective. As stated, I like Cluffie. I'm just making up shit when I indulge that particular fan-pairing. I make no claim that it is anything but a fan pairing. Cleriths are free to enjoy their fan-pairing as well. It does not make it canon just because they actually believe that it is, nor does the belief that there is no canon invalidate the truth as spelled out in the games, films, and source books.

How would you feel if I said that all Clotis are retards and they're in denial over the HA thing, now you wouldn't like it.

I'd laugh in your face while posting DERP! macros if it was in a less strict thread or pm. In fact, I think I have reacted similarly to a particularly batshit Pinker doing something similar during a discussion once.

Lol we're not. But W/E Yeah but the whole point of the LTD is to prove to a Cloti that Cloud loved Aeris. xD

If you say so. When you find an argument that beats word of god, let me know.

Well ... just don't go around insulting Cleriths.

I can act however I want. Don't tell me how to act.

Wow... see what I mean regarding the hypocrisy? At any rate, I am not insulting Cleriths in general. Just the particularly insane individuals who claim that alignment in the LTD. And I mean no offense to you, nor to lump you in with that subset of the fandom. I mean only to state that your arguments have begun to resemble theirs in many ways. As for the second pair of sentences quoted there, I did not tell you how to act. I suggested what you might do if you want people to act seriously. Nowhere did I command "STOP OH MY GAWWWWDING AND SHIT!" Just so you know, blatant hypocrisy and people attributing intent to me inaccurately are two of my berserk buttons normally. It is only by the grace of the LTD being very unimportant in the grand scheme of things (plus anger management therapy in my youth) that I remain so calm after that. So please don't do that, if you can find it in your heart to accept MY request.

No. They don't want to debate here because they're worried about being flamed by people here. Most of the Cleriths I know, are still pretty interested in the LTD and they're always looking to anything to try and prove C/T wrong and C/ A canon. They just don't like debating.

Again, if you say so. Considering the rules in this thread, the risk of a debate devolving into outright flaming seems to be nil imo, but I concede some Cleriths may be unaware of this fact and actually fear flames should they come in to debate. I don't claim the ability to read their minds, after all.

On another note: They're always looking for the nonexistent key to proving Cloti wrong.... but they just don't like debating. That makes a sort of sense that is... not.

Okay, well that's your opinion. You believe in the theory that the HA is canon. I'm not " brushing them aside " I'm trying my best to prove them wrong.

The HA version being canonical is not a theory. Nor is it a hypothesis, guess, or any other non-definite variable. It is a fact. As many have already said, it is confirmed in multiple places that Cloud and Tifa DID share their mutual feelings with each other under the Highwind. No feelings are shared in the LA version. Ergo, the HA version DID happen. If no feelings are shared in the LA version, and we know from SE themselves that mutual feelings were shared, then how can there be no canon version? You, and all other Cleriths who actually argue the "there is no canon" or "Clerith IS canon" perspective have EVER been able to answer this question. Which is no surprise, as it'd be like saying that 2 + 2 could equal either 4 or 6 and turning out to be correct, ffs!

There's a stereotype Clerith ? D: .... What do they act like ?

Not a stereotype of Cleriths in general. But I have seen enough batshit Cleriths that I have a stereotype in mind for them. As for how they act... well... batshit sums it up a little too well to change up the wording, really.

FF X Tidus had plenty. So yeah, proven wrong there.

Really now? I don't recall any alternate scenes in FFX between Tidus and Yuna. In an attempt to not jump the gun, I did a web search for such scenes to be sure I hadn't just missed them somehow. I got lots of the exact same scenes I remember when I played FFX, and a mention of someone hacking a game disc and finding a comedic alternate version that was not used in the game at all. You have proven nothing with this.

Because Cleriths don't believe that SE are wrong Gym Leader. We believe that Clotis are wrong. Unless all Clotis have created FF VII then well.... xD

*sigh* I already addressed this tripe above. Your beliefs =/= actual evidence.

We believe that SE states that there's no official FF VII couple. No C x T, no C x A, not even Clack or Aerti. It's all up to personal choice.

So yeah, if you like Cloud x Yuffie, then SE is saying, they're canon to you.

Yeah, no. Again, see above for where I responded to this basic concept the first time you put it into your reply to me. If SE actually did things the way you apparently believe they do, then continuity within the Compilation would not exist.

You do realize that Quistis thought that she had strong feelings for Squall, only to realize that she only loved him like a sister to a brother, right ?

I never played FFVIII beyond an hour or so in, and haven't paid too much attention to it beyond that. So no, I did not know this. I DO know that Cloud is not Squall, Quistis is not Tifa, and this has nothing to do with them. Quistis may have come to realize she loved Squall like a sibling. That does not automatically presume that Tifa decided she feels like Cloud's mom in the end. And to assume that she does, based on a single line from CoT, is foolish.

About the merchandise, people seem to be getting confused. I didn't post a keychain of Cloud next to Aerith or something like that, I posted a official SE game, with all the FF couples next to each other.

Last time I looked, a game isn't a model of Cloud on a motorbike.

Nope, its not a model of Cloud on a bike or otherwise. Its also not part of the Compilation and has no bearing whatsoever on this debate. Hence why people have been throwing out videos and images from Ergheiz, and then the aforementioned figures and such. Because those things mean exactly what your official SE game mean. Jack, and shit. And Jack left town. That was the point. At this point, you might as well be claiming Frog/Nanaki is canon because they're from SE games that you saw next to each other at a rental place once, for all the actual meaning it would have.

 

[Roger]

Hence I said "partly" his fault. Look, I am not blaming him for the things beyond his control. When I said he had unpleasant childhood, what I was referring to is his relationship with the children in Nibelheim. He was shy, he wants IN, but he didn't take any effort to be IN (except that one time when Tifa's momma died, which he was allowed to be IN when he ASKED).

Now, how he wasn't IN the group is Tifa's fault is beyond me, which was what Cloud (the TLS member) was arguing for.

Yeah, and you're making it sound like Cloud's unwillingness to ask them if he can hang out is the defining status quo of Cloud's childhood. "Except for that one time" that one time was shown because that event changed everything about Cloud's relationship with the other kids and the rest of the village.

"It's partly Cloud's fault for being a shy for an undetermined period of time before everybody started hating him for doing the right thing at 7 years old." Doesn't really work for me. I'm sorry, but him not being allowed in a group is maybe 0.00001% the reason why Cloud was screwed up by the time he left Nibelheim (let alone have anybearing on Cloti). Shouldn't even be mentioned.

On a different note: Belated Happy Birthday~

Thank you.

And then the bridge accident happened and the town considered him bad news. What did poor Cloud do? Instead of proving them wrong, he acted the part. He picked fights with other kids. Hence, the self-exclusion.

When Cloud is found by Tifa in Midgar, and he uses Jenova's ability to copy other people traits to pluck all the neccesary memories of himself and Zack out of her mind and created Disc 1 Cloud, he turned out a jerk. He kept getting into fights with Barret, Tifa's not surprised at this because that's how she remembers him.

You'll notice that at no point does the real Cloud show anything remotely supporting this. Because he isn't like that. She saw Cloud as a guy that liked getting into fights because she doesn't know what was going on and all her friends are lying to her to hide their own cowardice over leaving her to her suicide attempt.

So the key witness for Cloud picking fights all the time was unaware that the village started disliking Cloud first, all her friends were lying to her about Cloud, all the other kids wanted her to be their friend too, she hardly hanged out with Cloud himself.

Excuse me when I'd question whether this is really a reliable take on how that all went.

 

[Beckoning cat]

Hope this is something refreshing for a change

Now here's one shilly-shally and iffy view. If C/A were canon it would probably make Cloud one of the greatest cheaters among all FF-characters. Not only would he be giving Tifa false hope and playing her for a fool while living together while at the same time longing for his corpse bride but that he'd settle for the second best choice. And if he didn't have the guts to tell it it would make him an even more sad case. Not to mention he'd just stay in 7th Heaven for free meals and toilet

And what would it make Aerith look like. She'd contact Cloud for the primary reason to get some love from a family father even via the spirit world while leaving the helping of all ill people a minor inconvenience.

Same goes with Tifa, she'd seem rather hopeless and prideless without any self-respect for not kicking Cloud's arse out of the house and telling him to never come back if he was all hung up on a lost love.

Would this all make sense when seeing their actions in the compilation? Nope, seems quite irrational and very demeaning for all the 3 characters.

Btw just came up with the ultimate proof here, CxT must be canon because they're each others' default assists in Dissidia's arcade mode

/exits stage left

/does the same and fast

 

[Zee]

I don't see how Cloud would be such a terrible person for loving two people.

 

[Kobato]

QUOTE=Gym Leader Devil

It is actually not particularly rude of me, from my perspective. As stated, I like Cluffie. I'm just making up shit when I indulge that particular fan-pairing. I make no claim that it is anything but a fan pairing. Cleriths are free to enjoy their fan-pairing as well. It does not make it canon just because they actually believe that it is, nor does the belief that there is no canon invalidate the truth as spelled out in the games, films, and source books.



I'd laugh in your face while posting DERP! macros if it was in a less strict thread or pm. In fact, I think I have reacted similarly to a particularly batshit Pinker doing something similar during a discussion once.



Wow... see what I mean regarding the hypocrisy? At any rate, I am not insulting Cleriths in general. Just the particularly insane individuals who claim that alignment in the LTD. And I mean no offense to you, nor to lump you in with that subset of the fandom. I mean only to state that your arguments have begun to resemble theirs in many ways.


On another note: They're always looking for the nonexistent key to proving Cloti wrong.... but they just don't like debating. That makes a sort of sense that is... not.


You, and all other Cleriths who actually argue the "there is no canon" or "Clerith IS canon" perspective have EVER been able to answer this question. Which is no surprise, as it'd be like saying that 2 + 2 could equal either 4 or 6 and turning out to be correct, ffs!



Not a stereotype of Cleriths in general. But I have seen enough batshit Cleriths that I have a stereotype in mind for them. As for how they act... well... batshit sums it up a little too well to change up the wording, really.


Nope, its not a model of Cloud on a bike or otherwise. Its also not part of the Compilation and has no bearing whatsoever on this debate. Hence why people have been throwing out videos and images from Ergheiz, and then the aforementioned figures and such. Because those things mean exactly what your official SE game mean. Jack, and shit. And Jack left town. That was the point. At this point, you might as well be claiming Frog/Nanaki is canon because they're from SE games that you saw next to each other at a rental place once, for all the actual meaning it would have.


I don't want to debate with Gym Leader Devil here. But I feel like all the stuff I've highlighted in red is bashing Clerith, and not really nice things towards me.

 

[Kobato]

I think that theory pretty much discards Cloud loving Tifa. Or at least I don't know how someone could have some self-respect by misleading someone in such a way. I don't think it would feel nice to know that the person you are sharing a house and a family with and who you love has another girl on the side.

You do realize that you can live with people, share a house with them and a family and not love them right ?