The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Strangelove]

Re: that 10th Anniversary Ultimania 'Barret rushes to help his family' quote

I've been playing The 3rd Birthday, in which Theonius is talking to Aya and refers to Eve as 大事な家族 (daiji na kazoku, precious/dear family). He's only talking about Eve, but used the word for family to refer to her. Because that's her relationship with Aya. Likewise maybe Barret's quote is talking about Marlene when it mentions family.

but maybe i am just sick of the sight of the phrase 'family of friends' by now and will throw myself from a window the next time it is used

but then i just saw 'koibito=sweetheart' and idioms being read literally again while scrolling down and that killed me instead

r i p

 

[Danseru-kun]

I don't have to time to respond to all of your points, but I'd like to respond to this. Oh and Ryu, I'll hopefully get to yours at some point this week.

Spoiler

It makes sense that they expressed mutual feelings of companionship because they were on the brink of the final battle with Sephiroth. This was a "pep talk," so to speak. A reflection on how far they had come, and how far they still had to go. Their future was uncertain. But they both came to the realization that they've always been able to get through any obstacle because they've had each other -- the final battle would be no different.

The Highwind scene, to me, is about reflecting on mutual feelings of loss and struggle, but realizing that you can preserve despite these losses if you have someone that will always stand by your side -- be it a friend, lover, or family member.

Anyway...
What I got out of the scene is that it is about perseverance, even when the odds are stacked against you. It is about never giving up, and sticking together through tick and thin.

These mutual feeling of companionship are especially important, given that the future of the planet was uncertain at this time. But Tifa and Cloud had been able to get through any obstacle together thus far, so why would the final battle be any different? These feelings of hope and optimism were much needed before the final battle.

So through this conversation, Tifa and Cloud realized that as long as they don't have to go through the final battle alone, they can get through anything, just like they always had. This is clearly stated by Cloud right before they go back aboard the Highwind in both versions.

And given that the LA version does happen, and many of the same lines appear in the LA version, there has to be some "point" to the LA version other than romance. And I believe what I described above is the "point" of the non-romantic LA version.

Just a little side note: when I first played the game, I got the LA version. And my love for Final Fantasy VII ended far before the compilation began. Only recently have I revived my love for the game. These are my initial feelings on the Highwind scene when I first played the game. So that is why I honestly believe the character and story summaries could be referring to either version.

The bottom line is this: it is never explicitly stated that the feelings were romantic in the character and story summaries. That is a BIG red flag in my book. Furthermore, the FTOIL page cannot be applied to the character and story summaries because they are two completely different things with two completely different objectives. The FTOIL page refers to the HA version, and the character and story summaries don't.

Points:

1.Those feelings you mentioned does not make sense given the language structure. Blank, I'm talking about the grammatical sense, not about what makes sense to you in the story. The words used were: reveal, for each other, matched. Those words are not literally used for companionship, loss, struggle, being not alone.

2. Like Ryu had said, the LA version is stated to be apathetic or lacks feelings. The distinction is there. HA, mutual romantic feelings were shared, in LA, there is a lack of feelings. If you argue that companionship and sympathy are deep feelings, and I agree with you, then they are not shared in the LA version because that version is apathetic.

Deep feelings are shared between Cloud and Tifa and it is only shared in the HA version and it's specified by the quotes and the FTOIL page that they are romantic.

3. Blank, it's okay to have your own interpretation and feelings for the game. I didn't even play the game (but read the script and watched all a complete playthrough) that's why when I debate, I'm devoid of personal sentiments. When I watched AC, the first thing I encountered in FFVII, Aerith's character brought me to the fandom. My first ship was Clerith. So If I'm going to have sentiments, they will go to Aerith and Clerith, not Cloti since I don't have a past with it. But you know, as repeatedly stated here, the debate is not a place for personal opinion to trump over official word.

 

[Ryushikaze]

For the record, Danseru, I do heartily recommend EXPERIENCING the original game, not just reading or watching it. Video games are an interactive medium, natch.

Oh, and I might respond to the short response, but I think everyone else got to it, so if I don't get to it before you respond to the bigness of bigness, que sera sera or however that is spelled.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

I know Ryu. Watching CC cutscenes didn't really affect me but playing it brought a whole new level of feels. FFVII will be my graduation gift, so I'll play it next year. I better be, can't delay graduation.

But really, I have problems calling the dates and the HA scene optional because if you didn't have a game guide or anything, you won't really know what you would get. If you ship Cloti and get the Clerith date and LAHA scene, you didn't get what you want so it doesn't really depend on your interpretation. So it's not your option, it's a variable path affected by choices LT related or not. Like the barrels being pushed affecting the values, and saying something to Tifa over and over again up to 50 times it's not the stuff really good to determine romantic affection. And putting a meaning behind all those choices is irrelevant to the debate to me.

 

[Vendel]

It makes sense that they expressed mutual feelings of companionship because they were on the brink of the final battle with Sephiroth. This was a "pep talk," so to speak. A reflection on how far they had come, and how far they still had to go. Their future was uncertain. But they both came to the realization that they've always been able to get through any obstacle because they've had each other -- the final battle would be no different.

The Highwind scene, to me, is about reflecting on mutual feelings of loss and struggle, but realizing that you can preserve despite these losses if you have someone that will always stand by your side -- be it a friend, lover, or family member.

Anyway...
What I got out of the scene is that it is about perseverance, even when the odds are stacked against you. It is about never giving up, and sticking together through tick and thin.

These mutual feeling of companionship are especially important, given that the future of the planet was uncertain at this time. But Tifa and Cloud had been able to get through any obstacle together thus far, so why would the final battle be any different? These feelings of hope and optimism were much needed before the final battle.

So through this conversation, Tifa and Cloud realized that as long as they don't have to go through the final battle alone, they can get through anything, just like they always had. This is clearly stated by Cloud right before they go back aboard the Highwind in both versions.

I'm not sure why one of the most important scenes in the game would be "Cloud and Tifa have a pep talk where they...uh...rediscover that they can get through things as buddies because they have done so throughout the game".

Seems like a whole lot of nothing if that is all that happened don't you think? Not the kind of scene that keeps getting brought up over and over again.

...........

But let's look at this from a slightly different angle.

Cloud's profile 10th anv Ult.

- "Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them."

Now would you say that these feelings both Aerith and Tifa have for Cloud are romantic in nature? If you say no then you admit that Aerith didn't love Cloud. If you say yes then at what point did Tifa's feelings change?

If these feelings are important enough to note having then one would naturally assume it would be noteworthy to say when they ended. We are never told Tifa stops loving Cloud romantically.

So if Tifa and Aerith hold romantic feelings for Cloud then that must mean these are the feelings Tifa disclosed in the lifestream

From Tifa's profile 10th anv Ulti.

- "She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding."

So since the feelings Tifa holds for Cloud are romantic in nature, when we are told C/T's "feelings for each other" or "mutual feelings" then it must mean romantic ones.

Tifa's Crisis Core Ult profile.

- "In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC."

What say you Blank?

 

[Dashell]

So Tifa finally gets to meet the real Cloud because of the Lifestream Sequence. Everyone left to the places where their loved ones are to spend, what may be, their last time together. It might be Cloud and Tifa's last night alive. They remain behind and are like, "We are SO friends!"






I don't... I just... What were they BEFORE this?... I don't get it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

They were Fronds.

Palm Fronds, to be precise.

Also, can I just say how hilarious it is for Blank to try and use the 'Everyone's sweetheart' gambit while ALSO trying to use the Lifestream White quote?

And you people WONDER why we, well, I, I suppose I can't speak for everyone here- don't believe you when you say you think it's all up to interpretation. It's because you lot totally flip flopped on Koibito the exact second you thought it could help you, and now you're trying to have it mean what you insisted it meant back in the pre-2010 days for Tifa while insisting on the actual meaning when you apply it- improperly- to Aerith's thought process.
Well, that, and because I hear the same song and dance all the time from another group who are totally in it for their own beliefs without evidence and keep crowing that there's a false equivalency between the positions, and has to tear down the opposing side because they can't provide any evidence for their own.

For those who've guessed my analogy, yeah, I went there, but the tactics are the same, and after Anastar made the religion comparison herself, I see no reason not to openly compare the tactics of their particular camp to those used by the Creationist loonies.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I asked an online friend staying in Japan if he can consult natives the much disputed romantic quote and

Spoiler: I got a reply.

There is a quote I need to learn if its romantic or not. I've been studying basic Japanese myself but can't read much kanji yet.

Here it is: 想いを通わせる

I would appreciate it you could ask if that phrase is romantic. Note that its used between a man and a woman and its stated that they lived together afterwards

HI Danceljoy.

I promise to send you a note once I manage to get a answer.

Well If I read this right. "思いを通わせる" kinda means in context like: "our souls and thoughts are the same" It is a sentence that is romatic and share between love ones. One of my friends mentions that is a very rare sentence.

I hope I help you a bit.

Cheers, Sunnyday

Another confirmation (As if it's still needed)

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

You know Ryu, when you made that analogy comparing people who argue that it's up to interpretation with creationists, I was thinking you were comparing them to cleriths, which made sense to me, but then you said you were taking a jab at creationists, which also made sense to me, and I realized just how similar the mindsets of cleriths and the mindsets of creationists are. It's a shame how some people just won't admit the other person is right and will continue to scrounge for evidence against their opponent even though their opponent has proven themself right, without finding evidence for their own side because the evidence is nonexistant, and will instead gather "evidence" that they claim proves there argument, but really doesn't.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm actually a creationist dood and I'm debating for Cloti. If it's okay, can the analogy stop?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm actually a creationist dood and I'm debating for Cloti. If it's okay, can the analogy stop?

The analogy applies to a particular set of creationists and the tactics they use. While I understand it is unsettling to have one's beliefs contrasted in such a way, not all Creationists are honest and above board (the likes of Kent Hovind and Ken Ham are particularly sleazy IMO), and I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the methods similar.

However, I'll lay off, mostly because it would be much more interesting to pick your brains about why you are specifically creationist (as opposed to being a Theistic evolution believer) in General Discussion. Would you be willing to engage me in such a discussion, Danseru?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I call it the C/A date scene because that is the date that is pictured on the FTOIL page. By picturing the C/A date, it was given preferential treatment.

In what world does "ONE OF FOUR" translate to "preferential treatment"?

Your problem is that you equate the Highwind scene with the gold saucer dates.

And given that SE did not find it necessary to talk about a specific date scene suggests to me that the intent of the page is not to canonize pairings

They did not find it necessary because the dates don't translate into anything meaningful in the narrative. It doesn't matter which one of the four has the highest score because the dates are an additional mini-game, not a demonstration of the romantic thread of the narrative. You can date another man and still end up making out with Tifa under a ship full of perverts without fucking up anyone's story.

This is exactly what they wrote under the date screenshot btw. Kindly don't divorce pictures from context. The picture is included within a given framework - as ONE OF FOUR possibilities.

No matter what you get, no matter which one of four you date, the narrative will only address ONE of them. I'll give you a hint, it ain't Aeris. Aeris' moments of "romantic display" are contained within the dates, which SE has explicitly labeled as optional & "one fo four". This pretty much puts her on level playing field with Yuffie and Barret.

The Highwind scene is nothing like the dates. High or Low, it addresses only ONE couple -- Cloud & Tifa. The Highwind scene is also different in that it isn't optional at all. You can't avoid this Cloud/Tifa centered-scene or have it not take place. Whether you want it or not, the narrative itself FORCES you to confront Cloud and Tifa's romantic feelings, whether you dated her or not. It varies in dialogue, but there is no Highwind equivalent for Cloud to display his romantic feelings for any other character. It doesn't do this for any of the other 4. You can't talk about Yuffie or Barret or Aeris during it. If you want to argue that they both have the same weight, you must tell me why the fuck, out of 4 optional romantic partners, the narrative only cares about Tifa.

 

[AerithLives]

Cant we do a poll on this?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

There are old polls you can check in the archives. Most members (at that time, but most likely until now) think that Cloti is canon.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

OneWingedDemon, which date is canon is really irrelevant to who Cloud loves, because they say nothing of who Cloud loves, they just show who likes Cloud. And it's entirely possible that all 4 are canon. Not the case with both highwind scenes. And you technically can't date a man, because the Barret date is not an actual date, just a walk in an amusement park and a Gondola ride in which Barret tries to figure out who Cloud likes and Clud just sits there bored, until Barret comes to the hilariously wrong conclusion that Cloud has his eye on Marlene. Cloud and Barret are both straight, considering Cloud has a crush on Tifa and Barret had a wife back when he lived in Corel.

 

[Ryushikaze]

OneWingedDemon, which date is canon is really irrelevant to who Cloud loves, because they say nothing of who Cloud loves, they just show who likes Cloud. And it's entirely possible that all 4 are canon. Not the case with both highwind scenes. And you technically can't date a man, because the Barret date is not an actual date, just a walk in an amusement park and a Gondola ride in which Barret tries to figure out who Cloud likes and Clud just sits there bored, until Barret comes to the hilariously wrong conclusion that Cloud has his eye on Marlene. Cloud and Barret are both straight, considering Cloud has a crush on Tifa and Barret had a wife back when he lived in Corel.

It is almost painful to resist the 'Cloud's a woman' jokes here, but Matt, OWD agrees, more or less. She agrees the dates don't matter. You're kicking at an open door with that one.

Also, while laughably terrible as a 'date' it is included among the dates and referred to as such in the guidebooks. It's also arguably more of a 'date' than the breather Cloud and Aerith have in Sector 5 in which they talk about Zack for a bit.

 

[Lex]

I wish they'd let Barret and Cloud do the play, that would have been hilarious. Instead of "Congratulations! You're our 100th couple! Oh wait, no, you're not...".

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Ryu, you're right, I have no idea why that break in the park is even considered a date. If that's a date then so is Cloud talking to Tifa at the well, or the lifestream sequence. Square Enix's criteria for a date seems to be "any alone time between two people, regardless of whether or not it's romantic". Even if Cloud and Barret's "date" is considered an actual date by the logic Square Enix uses to constitute a date, nothing happens to imply one of them is gay for the other, unless you use yaoi fangirl logic. And Prince Lex, I think it'd be funny if they let you do the play during the Barret date as well. Just imagine, "Princess" Baret.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, you're right, I have no idea why that break in the park is even considered a date. If that's a date then so is Cloud talking to Tifa at the well, or the lifestream sequence. Square Enix's criteria for a date seems to be "any alone time between two people, regardless of whether or not it's romantic". Even if Cloud and Barret's "date" is considered an actual date by the logic Square Enix uses to constitute a date, nothing happens to imply one of them is gay for the other, unless you use yaoi fangirl logic. And Prince Lex, I think it'd be funny if they let you do the play during the Barret date as well. Just imagine, "Princess" Baret.

"I'm not gonna be a goddamn princess! Cloud, you do it. You already been in a dress!"
"How did...."
"Girls told me everything. Aerith even got pictures. Very resourceful girl. Tifa asked her for a copy too, nearly died for blushing."
"Why would Tifa...?"
"Boy, you are dumber than a sack of hammers sometimes, aintcha? Anyways, you're the princess, and that's final"

 

[Vendel]

I'm replying to a post made here.
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=465340&postcount=97

Couldn't Cloud have been less clueless after the date?

Sure. Post LS sequence is after the date.

I dunno personally I always thought Cloud being clueless to Aerith and Tifa's feelings didn't negate his own emotions. I always thought that deep down in Cloud on some level the real Cloud had to be aware of his journey with Aerith, Tifa, and everybody.

Deep down some part of Cloud may have been aware about Aerith and Tifa feelings for him on the first disk. But Cloud was a barely functioning mess pre-LS sequence. Who knows what he was thinking most of the time. If anything. I'm thinking It wasn't until post LS sequence that Cloud was able to process this information (his journey post test tube until then) on more than a surface level.

Makes more sense with the Highwind scene I think - they confirm that their feelings match, I think this means realising just how much they've come to know each other and realise what they mean to each other as adults, not the same feelings they had as kids when it was ideals they were chasing and they didn't really know who the other was proper, their journey as adults was deeper, stronger.

No. Tifa and Cloud loved each other before she found him at the train station. The LS sequence had nothing to do with "their journey as adults".

Also Cloud and Tifa had these feelings for each other when they were what 16 and 15 respectively? Tidus and Yuna, Squall and Riona were only 17 in their respective games. Zidane and Garnet were 16. So yes these feelings they had "as kids" are perfectly applicable to their "adult" selves.

Not that anything that happened during their journey caused them to fall out of love. Like Cloud realizing that he actually liked the flower girl so he couldn't bone Tifa under the HW.

As for Aerith the Aerith date/s just fit in better with the Cait Sith scene at the Temple of the Ancients and Cloud's strong reaction to what happened to Aerith at the Forgotten Capitol I think.

How?

Again the scene with Cloud and Aerith after what Sephiroth did was picked for showing at the 25th Anniversary and according to what online translators on an article about what was said at the event/why stuff was shown it refers to this as Cloud's "care" event and Cloud "pours out the emotion" Again based on main/core cast's journey together from Midgar I think this scene works the best/makes most scene to Cloud on a personal level with either Aerith or Tifa. Again as with the date I don't think it would be quite the same with Cid or Vincent, I can't see Cloud taking them in his arms Tifa though yeah.

What does any of this have to do with the date scene?

I'll make no bones about thinking Cloud was initially attracted to Aerith, he likes her smile, eyes,

He said that?

he agrees to the date offer in the church at the time (unless somebody can come up with a good arguement as to why a nod and Cloud immediately taking on Aerith's request to protect her after her offer isn't an agreement , after he'd asked for payment and apparently accepted the type offered ;p),

And then immediately tries to ditch her and return to Tifa as soon as he gets her home. So much for cash, grass or ass.

flirting kinda with her,

Was this before or after he tried to sneak out of her house in the middle of the night?

smiling and laughing together with her during the game,

Making fun of her. While under Jenova influence. The ultimania feels the need to point this out.

that there seems to be something between them "When talking about the "rare smile which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that “there seems to be something between them"

Cloud's rare smile entry is in the FFVII 10th Anv ultima profile. Not sure if the Omega has one.

that there seems to be something going on between Cloud and Aerith that Tifa isn't/Tifa doesn't feel a part of at the time "FVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, Tifa inadvertently lets her peevish feelings slip. Tifa’s profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania]"

I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here? That Tifa feels uncomfortable when Cloud talks to other girls?

Cloud telling Aerith he'll be there for her at Cosmo Canyon,

He said that everyone is there for her.

being interested in her past,

Proof that he loves her on a deeply emotional level.

being curious about, wanting to know if she was close to her past boyfriend,

The boyfriend SHE brings up.

So yeah I'll admit it I think Cloud was initially attracted to Aerith on some kind of level at least, even if it was a base/physical/chemical one

I hope it is based on more than what you have posted.

Again though I think the real Cloud was in there somewhere because he remembers Aerith later on in the game too, like when you return to Cosmo Canyon he says he remembers Aerith a lot, and in the ending.

Did anyone say he forgot everything that happened?

The main difference though is I don't think any Cloud and Aerith or ZaCloud and Aerith or w/e snazz negates Cloud and Tifa/the Compilation.

Except there is no C/A. Period. They only exist in the realm of the possible. The place shippers like to inhabit.

I will be honest again and say I -think-/personally believe (not going to present/try to reinforce it as fact) that Cloud cared deeply for both girls and I have fond memories of times/scenes Cloud spends with Aerith but at the end of Advent Children Cloud wants to live

Sure Cloud cared for Aerith. You know who else did? Everyone else. And what does any of that have to do with the end of AC?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Vendel why are you picking apart her post in this thread? Maiden is not even debating she saying what she thinks about the game.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks ^^

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate. I'd rather not have one. That was just my own personal ramble/general thoughts yeah. Just want to be left to my own business

 

[Vendel]

Vendel why are you picking apart her post in this thread?

It seemed the more appropriate thread.

Maiden is not even debating she saying what she thinks about the game.

Am I not allowed to say what I think or question her?

Thanks ^^

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate. I'd rather not have one. That was just my own personal ramble/general thoughts yeah. Just want to be left to my own business

If you don't want to stand up for your own opinions then that's fine. I'll continue to stand up for mine.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Am I not allowed to say what I think or question her?

Nobody is telling you what you're not allowed to do, but when you posted her thoughts here, you dragged her into a debate instead of inviting her. And you know this thread is a warzone. That's inconsiderate. You're being aggressive and you're requiring her to be defensive when she's also has the right to be left in peace.

 

[Vendel]

Nobody is telling you what you're not allowed to do, but when you posted her thoughts here, you dragged her into a debate instead of inviting her.

Nobody is telling either of you that you have to respond. Or even enter the thread.

And you know this thread is a warzone. That's inconsiderate. You're being aggressive and you're requiring her to be defensive when she's also has the right to be left in peace.

Stop being so melodramatic. This is the appropriate thread for the response I wanted to give her. Would you rather I do this on that thread?