The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Tina Armstrong]

You do realize that you can live with people, share a house with them and a family and not love them right ?

But that's certainly not the case for Cloud.
Edit: So.. why would he be longing for Aerith?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, if Cloud is living with a woman who loves him romantically, who he knows loves him romantically, and who he does not love romantically, then he's basically abusing her kindness.
And that's just not Cloud.

 

[Tennyo]

Here's the deal you guys, stop making this debate personal. Read the rules in the beginning of the thread, and don't be bated into breaking the rules.

Cloud - This especially goes for you. Don't make it personal, and don't argue about your feelings being hurt. You've been warned before, but now you get to take a break.

 

[Zee]

I think that theory pretty much discards Cloud loving Tifa. Or at least I don't know how someone could have some self-respect by misleading someone in such a way. I don't think it would feel nice to know that the person you are sharing a house and a family with and who you love has another girl on the side.

...What?

No really, I don't get it.

What's so terrible about Cloud loving Aeris and Tifa? How would Aeris even be the "girl on the side" when she's dead? How does a love for Aeris make his love for Tifa nonexsistant?

 

[Zee]

You're not allowed to think of the dead with fondness? I think that sounds more messed up.

 

[Tennyo]

...What?

No really, I don't get it.

What's so terrible about Cloud loving Aeris and Tifa? How would Aeris even be the "girl on the side" when she's dead? How does a love for Aeris make his love for Tifa nonexsistant?

I think that's the point that is trying to be made. Or at least close to it.

I think the original intent was to ask how it's fair for Cloud to love Aerith and only Aerith as has been argued before, while he knows Tifa is in love with him and all the while is living with Tifa and eating her cooking and such.

I think this is going from the idea that has been debated before that Cloud doesn't have feelings for Tifa, but only Aerith. The idea that Clerith being canon means that Cloti can't be because Cloud plans to spend his life being celibate due to his feelings for Aerith.

That's just my theory on where the original argument was coming from. I could be mistaken.

Of course, if the argument had the idea in mind that Cloud does have genuine feelings fro both girls and really does plan to live a life with Tifa in a proper relationship, then you would be right. But I don't think that was a case.

That's just my take, though.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And now we're getting into fuzzy equivocation and misunderstanding regarding word meaning. 'With Fondness' and 'Love' are very different kettles of fish.

A Fillial love towards Aerith is completely normal. A romantic one towards her is not abnormal, but a bit out there, she's dead, natch.
The idea of neglecting an existing woman who openly loves you romantically because of that romantic love for the dead girl while still living with the living one is what comes off as crass and as using.

 

[Fighter]

Wow. This exploded. So what's the argument against the U20 official pairings section these days?

 

[looneymoon]

If someone you're in love with dies doesn't mean you're not still in love with them.

You can be in love with two people at the same time.

I don't see how either of these concepts are at all abnormal.

 

[ForceStealer]

Loving and missing Aerith is different than jerking off to her to the exclusion of time spent with Tifa. And that's the difference I think people are going for.

Or calling Tifa "Aerith" during sexytime

 

[OneWingedDemon]

You can be in love with two people at the same time.

Except Cloud wasn't. So it's a moot point.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Loving and missing Aerith is different than jerking off to her to the exclusion of time spent with Tifa. And that's the difference I think people are going for.

Or calling Tifa "Aerith" during sexytime

Or being so vile as to tell the woman who is in love with him (and he knows it) to live together, to tell her that he feels he can do right in his life "now that [he] has [her]" (CoT) while he's pinning after someone else (dead or alive, it doesn't matter). It's playing with someone's emotions, it's borderline evil to do that. Bella Swan from Twilight does this and she's a psychopath.

If that was the case, then this version of Cloud ought to be hanged by his toes in the middle of Edge, stripped off his clothes in broad daylight, while people throw rotten tomatoes and bad eggs at him.

And then some.



Also, I'll come out and say it: I DON'T see Cloud remembering Aerith with any fondness before the end of ACC.

And before any panties get twisted, not because Aerith did a bad impression on him while she was alive or anything like this, but because he was zeroing/focusing at the fact that she was killed in front of him, while he was responsible for her safety (to say the least, apart from the fact that she was at least his friend and companion). In other words, guilt consumed him so much, that he couldn't think of her in any other way. (One of the Ultimanias say that she's a symbol of his failures and that his guilt over her death is one of the main reasons he closes himself and then feels lonely. But then again, Ultimanias were always DUH! material to me, because I only saw them pointing out the obvious.)

It is only at the end of ACC that he was able to look at her face to face (before he wouldn't even turn around and he flinched away from her touch on his Geostigma mark, even though he knows her hands are healing). It is only at the end of ACC that the wolf, Cloud's symbol of his guilt leaves (again, some official source says that that was the moment Cloud was able to forgive himself) and he's free from it. I can see him remembering a living, smiling, teasing, full of colour and flowers Aerith with fondness only after this end.

...

But that's just me.

 

[Wolfmania]

My impression as to why Cloud even carried that enourmous amount of guilt, was not only his promise to Aerith, but his to Zack as well.

He's the proof that Zack existed, and should have lived out Zack's life as well as his own for his dead best friend. I'd think a huge part of Zack's life would be to protect Aerith. So It's just that much more of a failure for him.

Heck, when Cloud's walking towards Midgar, dosen't Zacks voice go:

"Cloud, when you meet Aerith...I'm counting on you!"

As if, to protect her?

So by letting her die, he not only failed Aerith herself, but his best friend as well. That's double the failure.

 

[Elisa Maza]

^

1. I don't think he heard that. I think that was Zack's words overheard just for the player. As in, his thoughts aloud.

2. In the Japanese script he just says "Say hi"... I think. =/ *not sure*

3. I think Cloud felt guilt over Aerith's death before he even remembered Zack's existence. As in, screwed!Cloud felt lots of guilt as well.

Not that if he did hear Zack's words and after he remembered him this wouldn't add to his guilt. But, this was never pointed out by any creator and/or any Ultimania, so I don't think it's applicable.

 

[Wolfmania]

1. I don't think he heard that. I think that was Zack's words overheard just for the player. As in, his thoughts aloud.

It's possible.

2. In the Japanese script he just says "Say hi"... I think. =/ *not sure*

I think that's the english one.

In the subbed one I just saw, he says when Cloud meets Aerith, he's counting on him for something.

I think Cloud felt guilt over Aerith's death before he even remembered Zack's existence. As in, screwed!Cloud felt lots of guilt as well.

I'm sure he did, screwed Cloud was fond of Aerith. Just as real Cloud is.

Though, I'm talking much more of AC/C Cloud's mentality. Especially when he's talking to the Buster Sword(cause he's kinda fucked up the the head).

Not that if he did hear Zack's words and after he remembered him this wouldn't add to his guilt. But, this was never pointed out by any creator and/or any Ultimania, so I don't think it's applicable.

The scene where he says he failed to live out both their lives does hint to that, though.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I think that's the english one.

In the subbed one I just saw, he says when Cloud meets Aerith, he's counting on him for something.

=/ Seriously? Meh, I need to review some scenes. *gets at it*

I'm sure he did, screwed Cloud was fond of Aerith. Just as real Cloud is.

Though, I'm talking much more of AC/C Cloud's mentality. Especially when he's talking to the Buster Sword(cause he's kinda fucked up the the head).

The scene where he says he failed to live out both their lives does hint to that, though.

It's possible, but I still see it as a stretch, though, exactly because there's the possibility of him not hearing Zack's words (besides, Zack's mouth wasn't moving at that scene! How did Cloud hear him, mental connection? And Zack wasn't a Cetra, to parallel this with Aerith appearing in ACC).

Agree to disagree?

 

[Wolfmania]

Of course.

 

[Ryushikaze]

In the Japanese, Zack asks Cloud 'yoroshiku.'

This can mean 'take care of'
It can mean 'give my regards to'
It can mean 'be kind to'

It's a phrase that means a lot of things, sometimes several at once. So yes, Cloud could easily be guilting on not fulfilling Zack's request to take care of Aerith by letting her die in addition to direct guilt for failing Aerith's request for protection by letting her die.

 

[Elisa Maza]

In the Japanese, Zack asks Cloud 'yoroshiku.'

This can mean 'take care of'
It can mean 'give my regards to'
It can mean 'be kind to'

It's a phrase that means a lot of things, sometimes several at once.

Thank you for the clarification.

So yes, Cloud could easily be guilting on not fulfilling Zack's request to take care of Aerith by letting her die in addition to direct guilt for failing Aerith's request for protection by letting her die.

... Assuming he did hear this, something I disagree on and I believe that this line was used for extra bitterness and irony in the story (as if there weren't enough already!), but, whatev.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thank you for the clarification.

Welk.

... Assuming he did hear this, something I disagree on and I believe that this line was used for extra bitterness and irony in the story (as if there weren't enough already!), but, whatev.

Like I said. Could. Not did.
And hey, I think Cloud hearing it, only remembering it later and then guilting about it hard would add TONS of extra bitterness and irony to the story.

 

[Celes Chere]

You'll feel really hurt.

You mean like how you insulted me and called me a smart ass? I wasn't hurt by it, but yeah I did put my bitch face on. I don't see how you think when you're rude to people, you won't piss them off. Some people might laugh at it (like Quex) but I will fight fire with fire.

If someone you're in love with dies doesn't mean you're not still in love with them.

THIS. I've always believed this, it plays a big part in being such a Zerith fangirl. And yes, quite possible to love two people at the same time or be confused about it. I know some people have a problem comparing 'reality' to 'fantasy' but there is a bit of reality/themes added to these games. IDK why anyone would think otherwise. I don't think Cloud loved two people, but I do believe Aerith did.

 

[Wolfmania]

Well, thank for that Mr. Ryu, those were my thoughts on the matter exactly.

I will say this though:

When Zack first dies, Cloud is looking down, and then Zack's voice tells him to pursue his dreams, Cloud looks at Zack - seemingly hearing him. And then thanking Zack, saying he won't forget.

4:05 onwards.

He might not have heard them though. There's no way to confirm It.

 

[Dashell]

If someone you're in love with dies doesn't mean you're not still in love with them.

You can be in love with two people at the same time.

I don't see how either of these concepts are at all abnormal.

You're completely right... but the argument wasn't about him loving both or loving one after death. People are saying that if Cloud does still love Aerith and ONLY Aerith and NOT Tifa, which is fine, he shouldn't be living with Tifa then because it borders on taking advantage of her and that's not something Cloud would do.

I don't know why people are confusing the statement, "Cloud shouldn't take advantage of Tifa" with "Cloud can't love two people" or "Cloud can't love Aerith after she dies"

EDIT

Wow. This exploded. So what's the argument against the U20 official pairings section these days?

The same as it always is and will be. The HA Scene is optional. But as I said, I've yet to see anyone tackle my lifestream quote

 

[Ryushikaze]

ClerithRaven will be departing this discussion, citing time constraints in her real life.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, on the Subject of Maiden being canon or not for when Cloud can return to the forum and the thread, I came across one very important bit of evidence that renders the chapter of it coinciding with the Lifestream sequence- and thus the argument that it was only through Aerith's help that Tifa could aid Cloud in restoring his memory- acanon.

Tifa's CCU profile states-
[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud’s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

Ergo, Aerith wasn't watching, like Maiden said she was. Oh well.