The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[ClerithRaven]

I'm back. You hit the wrong button.

Zack, then. Use Zack. Does THAT warrant the same reaction? I, for one, think most, if not all of his teammates would warrant such a response. With the obvious exception of Cait Siths.

Would Cloud say lines regarding Zack's smile or laughter? In the montage we saw when Zack died, Cloud remembered their moments together yes, but it wasn't about Zack's smile or laughter, it was about the times they had where Zack supported him.

Yeah, but so's Zack. Toss ZACK in there, and see if you think it comes across as romantic or even half as emotional as Cloud's reaction in CC or the OG.

For those who ship Clack, then tossing Zack in there would be very much romantic. Again, even if Zack was there in place of Aerith, Cloud's lines would me inclined to how much Zack has been there for him in SOLDIER.

One of me. My point is that at one time, I was on the other end of the stick. Then I grabbed said stick and began savaging with it.

Like what we're trying to do now.

But he did not WANT TO BE alone is my point.

All right then.

No. Nodding when I agree or am listening is a habit. This habit continues even when no one can SEE these visual cues.

To you. Like I said, we're all different.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUIET.
At most, you have a quote from 2K2 with Nomura going 'Idunno, LOL' but then in 2K5 they were living together and raising kids together. in 2k6 in the RF, Tifa and Cloud have a future together. She knows him all to well. She's someone's beloved. She and Cloud living together is where they belong. In the U10 she and Cloud form a family together. Their family. A family in which she is the mother. A family in which she, the mother, thinks of Cloud as the father. Nojima said he tried not to let his feelings about love and marriage influence him in writing CoT, but laughed to indicate he didn't do that good a job. The High Highwind scene is ALWAYS the one that gets attention. IT is one of the notable scenes of Final Fantasy Seven. It has been called adult, mature and contains risque dialogue in the form of 'words aren't the only way.' It has been said in at least eight locations across at least three books that Cloud and Tifa confirm their matching feelings that night and move in together afterwards.
Cloud and Tifa are their own keyword in the Crisis Core Ultimania. Cloud and Tifa are constantly linked together. Square Enix has not been quiet or shy about pushing the two together. Even in Dissidia, they have it that Cloud is fighting for Tifa.
And again, Square Enix notes deviations for things even when what is canon is blatantly obvious. A deviation appearing does not render the continuity uncertain. Going 'If you brought vincent to the sister ray' in one book does not invalidate 'I was at the sister ray' in DoC.
Hell, the U10 lists a 'if Vince was at the ray' I think, and it's POST DoC.

What you've said are your evidences for supporting that Cloti is canon. Your interpretation on what SE has published. I don't even know half of the statements you said was in the books so quotes would be darn helpful.

"Alas poor Yorick, I knew him, Horatio. A man of most infinite Jest. How he bore me on his back a thousand times!"
Hamlet was macking on Yorick. Noted. Crude, yes, but that is what your argument boils down to. He liked her, he'll miss things about her now that she's dead, it must be romance.
Hell, at least hamlet mentioned kissing Yorick on the lips.

How does Shakespeare's work relate to SE's FF7?

Cloud managed to fight Sephiroth's will. He did not get Sephiroth out of his head. Sephiroth had an inroad to Cloud on a cellular level. The eyes burning, the the tingling hands, all could be symptoms of his fighting Sephy's control. Especially as he has these same symptoms in War of the Lions and blames Sephiroth for them.

The deed was done. Aerith was dead. Sephiroth did not have to control Cloud anymore. So why would Cloud have those symptoms if the reason was fighting Sephiroth's control when what the silver-haired man wanted had already come to fruition?
Btw... War of the Lions? What is that?

Who said anything about jealous? Tifa can be quite reasonably concerned about Cloud focusing overmuch on the death of a friend whom he felt complicit in without need for it to be jealousy.

She had complicated feelings that a woman had for a love rival. Pretty much says jealousy to me.

Tifa got to look at Cloud when he was just plain Cloud. She got to walk around in his noggin in the lifestream. The Prologue book for AC stated that Cloud first ever opened his heart to Tifa, but that during AC, he had closed it 'even to her.'

When? When they were kids? Kids grow up and changes happen. If she got a look at Cloud in the lifestream, then how could she have helped him regain his true self when the first time she sees Cloud as him is during the lifestream event? She may have helped, but only as a starter. She provided one memory, then Cloud did the rest of the remembering from his point of view. Tifa wouldn't have known.

We have seen, all told- about 10 minutes of their childhood from before Cloud left. Of 14 years, we have 10 minutes.
Other scenes in which they are close or how important they are is stressed are the Well scene- which KEEPS COMING UP because SE wants you to know that 'IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, HINT HINT. WE ARE BEING SUBTLE.' The Nibelheim massacre in which he gently takes her body, moves her to safely, and strokes her cheek, when Cloud loses his gibbets he says only Tifa's opinion matters, he apologizes for not being the real Cloud, and hopes she finds the real Cloud someday. Then there's them having no one else to fight for, Cloud fighting for his very personal memory, etc. etc. Seriously. Go play the game. It helps.

In those 14 years, how much time did Tifa actually spend with Cloud as seen in the game? The well scene pretty much sums it up. Other interactions are merely assumptions after that.

Cloud's feelings of grief about Aerith's death pretty much comes up often too. Cloud also asks Aerith for assurance of himself. Tifa was still very much alive so she couldn't have been the memory. He says at one point that he'll do the rest for Aerith, which probably is what he was fighting for.

Irrelevant. That's not his HAPPINESS leading to strain, but his awkwardness.

And I was merely pointing out that not only can his happiness lead to strain.

I don't have to match lip flaps. In any case, Aerith's English Line has much the same tone, it's just phrased with the question first to match der flapptyflaps.

The difference is that in Japanese it's a question, but in English it's a statement. Taking the English one, we see it as a reassurance. In the question, also a reassurance. Is that it?

I'm leaving and I probably can't come back, so I want to tell you things'll be fine and this is in no way, shape, or form a goodbye?
BUH? Seriously, how is there no element of goodbye in doing it while leaving for the afterlife?

The difference with your goodbye is that you see it as a permanent parting. For Aerith, that's not the case. So it's more like a Farewell. Aerith can come back, well, spiritually, like the time she held his arm and helped him in the Bahamut Scene. No goodbyes were necessary from her.

So, then she brought Zack to the church for a reason, then. And it was not intended as a romantic meeting, since SHE brought the extra man. Unless she's kinky like that. Would NOT put it past her.

Zack's presence did not need Aerith's at that time. Cloud waking up in the water was like him being born again. And I do remember somewhere that those who have just been and will be in the Lifestream can see those who are presently there. That could be the reason why Zack was seen by Cloud. And can't the man visit a friend when he finally can?

Now we're playing semantics. You agree that they were leaving. Heading somewhere else. Gestures and comments are made as they leave. But it's not a goodbye. You must have a very peculiar definition of goodbye.
Incidentally, unless Cetra Goo is somehow special, Aerith's heritage won't help her in the afterlife, though her philosophy and will might.

Goodbyes seem permanent. Farewells are temporary. That's my definition.
Being a Cetra is special in itself. That's shown in the game and throughout AC/C.

Knowing that the entity you have psychologically cast as the symbol of your failures does not blame you would be a load off, yes.
But no, it's about Cloud realizing he doesn't need to feel GUILTY, which is why the wolf vanishes, and why he isn't alone any longer. Because the guilt isn't acting as a barrier to that.

So you're now abandoning your first statement that the presence of his friends and family were part of the reason the Church was his Promised Land.

The promised land is the place where you are happy.
Cloud was not happy prior to this scene.
It is his promised land when he awakens. Some THING has changed to allow Cloud to be happy. What has changed is Cloud. His guiltwolf is gone. He can be happy

He could have been happy living there since it's where Aerith's presence is strongest. Just a thought. :p
And the passage says 'the place', not 'the time'. Taking it to mean that it's his promised land because his guiltwolf has vanished when he wakes up is your interpretation.

By the definition of what the promised land is, the church could not have previously been his promised land, as it was not making him happy nor where was it where he was happy. Elsewhere, it is established that Cloud's family makes him happy but it also feeds his guilt. Absolved of guilt, Cloud awakens to his promised land where his family- again, noted elsewhere as being the source of an ever increasing happiness- is emphasized. Sure, they might not be why- it could be the sheer relief of being cured and free of guilt- but they, as noted sources of happiness, are far more plausible than dead people he's not aware of yet.
In short, if you aren't happy, it's not your promised land. Cloud wasn't happy in the church before waking up, so it was not at that time his promised land.
Incidentally, noting that it is where her presence is most felt leads me into a new question- what do you think of Cloud's moving Buster to the church and planting flowers at Zack's grave?

If you could tell me a statement released by SE that when Cloud lived in the Church he wasn't really happy, then fine, it's not making him happy.
That elsewhere being? The U20?
I've taken a liking to Cloud's line at the end of FF7. He can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Where did he see Aerith again? The Church. That's one of the reasons I believe it's not just about his guilt vanishing which makes the church his Promised Land.

To answer your question, first, could we really say that Cloud planted those flowers? They could've just grew there. If he did, then it could be taken to mean as an offering to his dead best bud. Second, moving the Buster in Aerith's church would be more convenient. If he moved the sword there, he could now remember Zack together with Aerith every time he goes to the Church.

You couldn't think of Cloud being picked up by friends and dropped into the pool? And 'come back' couldn't have been used in the 'he'll come back to life/ consciousness/ clothedness' sense?

The girl said, "It's like she said... <b>Wait here</b> and Cloud will come back. Prior to that, we see a scene where it is implied that Aerith instructs them to go to the Church. The next we know, viola, Cloud's awake in the middle of the pond of water.

When he got Tifa to admit to Cloud that as far as she knew, he was not at the nibelheim massacre. That his memories were wrong. That he was not who he thought he was. Tifa was Cloud's rock. Sephiroth used her to twist the truth into making Cloud think he was a lab grown speciment, finally destroying his sense of self.

I forgot where this one started. Remind me please.
Also, I take it that it was at that part that Cloud also asked Aerith for assurance that he was an Ex-Soldier. If I find the quote, I'll be more sure. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.

Egads. At least cartoons have the decency to mock the 'one outfit, ever' with costumes full of perfectly identical getups. Cloud, realistically, must have at least a few sets of clothing. He must, therefore, have a place to store this clothing.

But do we see it? No. He doesn't change his clothes. Ever.

That's because they are games and rarely is proper grooming entertaining in a game. But there's games and then there's world building. ShinRa tower had several bathrooms. Houses without bathrooms are bad houses.

Then it can exist which does not connect to any particular room. Why are we discussing bathrooms again?

With my mother it comes of as cloying and overprotective. With my brothers it would be creepy and suspicious and I'd wonder what they'd been doing. With my father just plain rude. Not so with my girlfriend.
Getting to watch me sleep is its own special class.

So watching you sleep is like a privilege.

What's the difference?

Plain thinking of it differs from believing it to be necessary.

When you have the power to render aid to the dying that results in them not dying and do not do so, especially over a great period of time and with a great number of people, you have no conscience. Geostigma was an epidemic. Aerith has the cure. She's either unable or unwilling to share. A is by far the superior choice since B makes her into an outright monster.

We don't know how Aerith came to know she has the cure. It could have come to her during the events of AC/C, which we don't have her point of view.

Aerith's opinion and abilities during the movie are unlikely to drastically change from what they were leading up to the movie.
Aerith wanted to, but was unable. Limited power, but with compassion. Much better than the opposite alternative.

2 years is a long time for change to happen. Plus what I said above this.

Cloud isn't a teenager after the events of FF7. This is the period in which he is described as acting like one. I reiterate that I disagree with this. You indicated that you think it was warranted.

Where have I <b>indicated that it was warranted</b>? I thought I said that it's what I've also seen or observed?

Why would Tifa buy them? It's Cloud's emblem.

That's why I said I thought. I do stand corrected.

Again, Cloud is searching for forginess and sleeping in a broken church. Even if he normally sleeps in a king size, both camping and seeking penance are different things.

Yeah and I was saying that he isn't exactly one who would be luxurious about his bed.

Yes. Throwing himself into his work to distract himself from his issues. Then Denzel got involved and he began making an effort to be an active part of the family again.

Denzel, who he initially believed was brought to him by Aerith.

Waiting for death is not the same as wanting to die. Also, she wasn't assuming he had given up, she was asking if he was. She was wondering where his fight had gone. And as a result, he kept on fighting.
Besides, even Tifa doesn't understand ALL the complexities of Cloud's heart. Since we're quoting.

She had asked it, meaning she had been thinking of it. And the 'is that it?' line makes it seem like she's confirming what she thinks. And when did he resume/start fighting? After Aerith coaxes him into forgiving himself.

Seriously, do play the game. They tend to group together most times the group splits, and have several side conversations together. Heck, they hit it off from the first moment they meet in the Don's basement.

I will not need to play since it seems you clearly can provide sufficient information, with you telling me to play it often. And it was at that moment that Tifa noticed how Cloud had formed a special bond with Aerith, after which she acted peevishly.

Quite literally, that's all they are in the metaphysiology of FF7 and FF10.
Granted, MEMORIES are more than just memories at times, but that's another matter.

Oooooooh.

Cloud has, for the past while, felt he needed to make amends for his problems, has talked about not being able to bring back the dead, and admitted he thought Aerith might have brought denzel to him/ him and Tifa. Aerith's church is a logical place to begin looking.

Cloud gave her a reason to focus on Aerith then. Haha.
Might I add, Cloud first thought Aerith brought Denzel only to him. Not even thinking of Tifa. That was selfish of him. LOL.

And Tifa. And Vincent. And Marlene. Regardless, the dead people being present comes as a surprise to him later.

Still, they also helped.

It's still a question. "You see?" should have in an ideal world come last, but lip flaps.

It's her reassuring Cloud that everything was all right, all along.

I should have poofed that better. I meant I've NOT used their strain as the basis for them being romantically involved. Merely argued that having it doesn't preclude romance.

Too much strain isn't healthy either.

She asked that he take her the next visit. And again, she's worried because Aerith is directly resonsible for Cloud beating himself up.

Asked? More like insisted.

Tell that to the UO. And his Manual entry. And his actual prediction accuracy rate. As for BC- Reeve is the head of urban planning. He's a VP. He has access to records.
So, yes, his predictions CAN be dismissed as unreliable because his prediction predicts both nothing and everything and is a prime example of infalsifiability, AKA: Utter uselessness.

Wow. Talk about Cait Sith issues.

The entire scene is important.

I was saying that his lines became more important because he managed to diss Sephiroth and continue his sulking.

Yes. He was nearly directly responsible for the death of someone he promised to protect, and then blatantly failed to protect that person. He had made no such promise to protect Cloud. Only to live on for the both of them. And he still felt shit when he thought he was failing that promise.
Cloud's big on his word.

But was there a mention of his heart being torn when he visits Zack's grave? None.

There was absolutely no need to make those sequels about Zack or emphasize his relationship with Aerith. But that is what they did.

I did say that it could be marketing ploy to keep people reminded of FF7.

Sure as fuck they can. He can go on a date with the first two, Jessie was interested in him, and Yuffie's the only one to kiss Cloud on camera.

But no one seems to be interested in bringing them in it, are they? Since the focus is only on Aerith-Cloud-Tifa.

So why IGNORE him in SCENES HE'S IN, LIKE the final scene in AC/C in the church?
Why ignore Zack's death on Cloud?

Do we really ignore it? We just say that Aerith's death has more impact/effect.

You are allowed to aggregate similar points made by people and address them both at once.

Then people should not have to comment on one point differently. Since you made your point on mine, another person who has the similar point should not feel the need to do the same. But no, there's two replies for one point-meaning that one reply is not really that similar to the other.

Who SEPHIROTH thinks should feel like nothing. Cloud is not beholden to act like Sephypoo wants him to.

That's why I say it's a feat for him to do so.

Which are still technically from Aerith's limited perspective. And which has Aerith be jealous of Tifa for getting to live together with Cloud. And MOTP is novella non grata.

I take it novella non grata kind of means you're not seeing MotP as canon.

PLAY THE GAME. Games are a visual medium. There's a shitton more anger expressed through the visuals and the music in the Nibelheim incident compared to Aerith's demise, which comes acrossed as shocked and appalled.

How many times have you told me that already? How can I play the darn game if I don't have the time or the copy? Sheesh!

Aerith KNEW OF the Real Cloud. She did know know him with superhuman clarity.
Tifa Knew of Cloud's curious mental state before the game even began. She knew things didn't add up. She offered him a job with AVALANCHE to keep a closer eye on him.
And there are at minimum two months, if not more, for Cloud and Tifa to get to know each other post water tower. Tifa wear a summer dress. Complaints of it getting chilly are made. Cloud states he's leaving next spring.
And even in Maiden, Aerith helped her TO Cloud. Aerith herself was unable to help Cloud and laments that she cannot touch him, cannot communicate with him.

Before the game even began? How is that possible?
For the post water tower part, assumptions then.
Aerith helped Tifa help Cloud, not to Cloud. Lamenting over it is normal since she did want to do it herslef. But thanks to a certain person, she can't. Thankfully, she has a special ability which made it possible for Tifa to help Cloud.

Yes it is, actually. Regardless. It's official. It's corroborated several times.

If you say so.

She has not, as she's admitted, making this an extra fustrating discussion.

It should not be so frustrating since referencing the game seems to be your favorite.

Edit: And it's kind of useless to use quotes from MoTP since it's not made by SE.

More importantly, not really recognized by SE. Ever.

Now, this is my berserk button. The creation process of MotP was supervised by SE. Just because it's not written by a staff of SE makes it useless? Wow. And what's with it not being recognized? Being published is recognition in itself.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Now, this is my berserk button. The creation process of MotP was supervised by SE. Just because it's not written by a staff of SE makes it useless?

Yes, exactly.

 

[Celes Chere]

Just because it was supervised by SE, does not mean it's a canon work. A game guide could be 'supervised' by SE, but the person writing the guide can write anything they want in it. So many times I'd like to use the Crisis Core guide in the LTD because it's just so damn Zerithy it almost hurts. xD But I can't because it's just not canon. Neither is Maiden. It's a work done by someone else (kind of like a fanfiction actually) with a differing opinion and view on the game. Kind of like how Cloud's voice actor said "I'm a Tifa girl myself" it's his opinion that SE put into their Reunion Files. It doesn't mean his opinion is canon for Cloud, though.

 

[Dashell]

Oh, on the Subject of Maiden being canon or not for when Cloud can return to the forum and the thread, I came across one very important bit of evidence that renders the chapter of it coinciding with the Lifestream sequence- and thus the argument that it was only through Aerith's help that Tifa could aid Cloud in restoring his memory- acanon.

Tifa's CCU profile states-
[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud&#8217;s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

Ergo, Aerith wasn't watching, like Maiden said she was. Oh well.

Come on Ryu, I've addressed this many times before. There's an article here on TLS that addresses this point:

Contradiction claim #4: In Maiden Aerith and Zack witness Tifa reconstruct Cloud in the Lifestream but in Tifa's Crisis Core Ultimania profile it says that Tifa becomes the "only witness" to his blurry memory during the original game, and that she also plays an important role in him regaining his true self .

This is a case of selective reading. The quote in Tifa's profile says that Tifa became a witness to his blurry memories and ALSO helped put Cloud back together. It's talking about two separate events. Tifa was a witness to Cloud's blurry memory because she was the only one of the group that knew his memories were off. LATER, she helped put Cloud back together. And if the quote IS talking about the Lifestream event, right before Tifa enters into Cloud's consciousness she talks to some spirits, eventually falling over and clutching her head as she hears them moan and speak to her. She was SURROUNDED by spirits, so it would make sense that there would be many spirit witnesses to what happened with Cloud, not JUST Aerith. So this quote in Tifa's profile is either saying Tifa was the only living witness OR it is contradicting the original game, therefore it's not Maiden doing the contradicting.

Conclusion on contradiction claim #4: Maiden itself is NOT contradicting the original game or the Compilation, but Tifa's profile might be, but if it is, it's the original game.

and taken from our very own main page:

4) In Maiden, Aerith witnesses Tifa reconstructing Cloud&#8217;s shattered personality within the Lifestream. On pg. 33 of the Crisis Core Ultimania, it&#8217;s said that Tifa becomes the only witness to his blurry memory during the original game, and that she also plays an important role in him regaining his true self

-Not a contradiction with the original game or the wider Compilation. Tifa is the only witness to Cloud&#8217;s blurry memory during the original game &#8212; but this line wasn&#8217;t in reference to the Lifestream sequence in which she helps him reassemble his mind.

Notice that the passage says she becomes the only witness to his questionable recollection, and that she also plays an important role in him regaining his proper memories &#8212; this second event being what happens when the two fall into the Lifestream together.

She&#8217;s the only witness to his blurry memory because she&#8217;s the only one who recognized that his memories were off throughout the first disc of the game.

For that matter, even if the line from the CC Ultimania had been in reference to what goes down in the Lifestream, Tifa would still be the only living witness &#8212; but that wouldn&#8217;t preclude non-living witnesses. They were in the Lifestream, after all, which is composed of consciousnesses &#8212; and at that point, Aerith&#8217;s was one of them.

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/7025/ffvii-and-canon-2/3/

EDIT:

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUIET.
At most, you have a quote from 2K2 with Nomura going 'Idunno, LOL' but then in 2K5 they were living together and raising kids together. in 2k6 in the RF, Tifa and Cloud have a future together. She knows him all to well. She's someone's beloved. She and Cloud living together is where they belong. In the U10 she and Cloud form a family together. Their family. A family in which she is the mother. A family in which she, the mother, thinks of Cloud as the father. Nojima said he tried not to let his feelings about love and marriage influence him in writing CoT, but laughed to indicate he didn't do that good a job. The High Highwind scene is ALWAYS the one that gets attention. IT is one of the notable scenes of Final Fantasy Seven. It has been called adult, mature and contains risque dialogue in the form of 'words aren't the only way.' It has been said in at least eight locations across at least three books that Cloud and Tifa confirm their matching feelings that night and move in together afterwards.
Cloud and Tifa are their own keyword in the Crisis Core Ultimania. Cloud and Tifa are constantly linked together. Square Enix has not been quiet or shy about pushing the two together. Even in Dissidia, they have it that Cloud is fighting for Tifa.
And again, Square Enix notes deviations for things even when what is canon is blatantly obvious. A deviation appearing does not render the continuity uncertain. Going 'If you brought vincent to the sister ray' in one book does not invalidate 'I was at the sister ray' in DoC.
Hell, the U10 lists a 'if Vince was at the ray' I think, and it's POST DoC.

What you've said are your evidences for supporting that Cloti is canon. Your interpretation on what SE has published. I don't even know half of the statements you said was in the books so quotes would be darn helpful.

I can get you all of these after work, okay? Unless Ryu or someone posts them first

 

[Vendel]

So either Tifa's profile is talking about two separate events or it's the one contradicting MotP the source material?

Really?

Some of you will just bend over backwards to defend Benny's fanfiction.

 

[Dashell]

Nice try, but I'm pretty sure in both Maiden and the original game, there are spirits in the lifestream. Tifa's profile seems to be the only one that implies that there isn't.

Unless you're saying there aren't spirits there. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Vendel]

Nice try, but I'm pretty sure in both Maiden and the original game, there are spirits in the lifestream. Tifa's profile seems to be the only one that implies that there isn't.

Unless you're saying there aren't spirits there. Is that what you're saying?

So let's break this down shall we?

[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud’s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

First off, how does Tifa knowing Cloud wasn't acting like himself make her a "witness to Cloud's blurry memory"? That just strikes me as odd. The only time Tifa gets a look at Cloud's memories by herself is the lifestream.

So no, this isn't talking about two separate events. Only the LS sequence makes sense.

Secondly. Lifestream spirits were watching? Really?



Honestly Q this is the type of crap we have been known to rag on people for.

 

[Dashell]

Secondly. Lifestream spirits were watching? Really?

Lifestream spirits were there, they probably saw something. They were able to see Tifa and talk to her. In fact at the end of the LS sequence, doesn't Cloud fall over and clutch his head due to all the voices around them? They were there, and they saw Cloud and Tifa and what they were doing. That would make them witnesses, would it not?

as for witnessing his blurry memory, it could be talking about him telling the story. She was a witness to him telling the story wrong, right?

 

[Dashell]

Quote dump that I promised:

in 2k6 in the RF, Tifa and Cloud have a future together.

Tifa fought alongside Cloud in a battle two years ago. She has a long history of memories with him that are connected to their future, but Cloud eventually distances himself from Tifa - Reunion Files Page 18

She knows him all to well.

Not sure about this one actually, Ryu which one is this?

She's someone's beloved.

There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a *sweetheart, and a close ally in battle - Reunion Files - Page 19

* sweetheart = koibito which can also be translated as beloved, though the official translation is sweetheart.

She and Cloud living together is where they belong

Inside I felt one thing for sure, Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everyone would be back home where they belonged. - Nojima, Reunion Files page 70

In the U10 she and Cloud form a family together.

The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge. - Tifa's U10 Profile

Their family.

Cloud and Tifa's new family. - The title of Denzel's U10 Profile

A family in which she is the mother.

See above.

A family in which she, the mother, thinks of Cloud as the father.

It wouldn’t be a surprise if someone said it was a young father with his two children. If I felt like it, I could go over to that table and be welcomed with smiles. - Tifa in Case of Tifa

I'd also like to introduce to the table:

Although he's only been living there for a short while, he adores Cloud and Tifa like parents and his bonds with them are strong. - Denzel's U10 profile

Nojima said he tried not to let his feelings about love and marriage influence him in writing CoT, but laughed to indicate he didn't do that good a job.

"First, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to work it out. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think." ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

The High Highwind scene is ALWAYS the one that gets attention. IT is one of the notable scenes of Final Fantasy Seven.

There isn't a "quote" for this, but yes, in the U20, it has a page of Important Scenes in each and every Final Fantasy. for FFVII, the HA version of the highwind scene is one.

It has been called adult, mature and contains risque dialogue in the form of 'words aren't the only way.'

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs). - U10 interview

It has been said in at least eight locations across at least three books that Cloud and Tifa confirm their matching feelings that night and move in together afterwards.

Get ready:

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud."(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."(CCU, pg. 33)

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match." (U20 Scenario, pg. 394)

Cloud and Tifa are their own keyword in the Crisis Core Ultimania.

Cloud and Tifa

Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends, both born in Nibelheim. When Cloud leaves the village, he calls Tifa out to the water tower and promises that he will become a SOLDIER. At the same time, he is also made by Tifa to promise that he will come to rescue her if she is ever in trouble.

Following this, the pair experience many hardships, such as the Nibelheim incident which also appears in CC, and the Jenova War in FFVII, and through these the distance between them shortens. And in AC they live together, with Barret’s daughter Marlene and a boy named Denzel. Though there was also a period later where Cloud lived away from them after having contracted Geostigma, they finally reach a commune with each over and return to living together once again. In DC, they rush together to Vincent’s aid, in his battle against Deep Ground SOLDIER. - Crisis Core Guidebook

Cloud and Tifa are constantly linked together. Square Enix has not been quiet or shy about pushing the two together. Even in Dissidia, they have it that Cloud is fighting for Tifa.

I think you got your quotes mixed up here. I have this one

A taciturn cool soldier who wields a large sword with ease. He is summoned to battle as a warrior of the god of chaos, but goes against his mission to protect a friend who is from his home world: a woman who had now become his enemy. In the 13th Cycle, Cosmos arranges for him to become her warrior. Though losing his memory of the previous battle, he is attacked by a feeling of loss and continues to ask himself what he's fighting for.

and this:
Continuing on his journey while still troubled with questions, he finds a new meaning to fight in aiding his comrades realize their dreams.

Did they say at some point it was Tifa? If they said that I missed that one...



but there's all your quotes for you...I SO need to get my quote dump site back up

EDIT

Tell that to the UO. And his Manual entry. And his actual prediction accuracy rate. As for BC- Reeve is the head of urban planning. He's a VP. He has access to records.
So, yes, his predictions CAN be dismissed as unreliable because his prediction predicts both nothing and everything and is a prime example of infalsifiability, AKA: Utter uselessness.

Ryu maybe it would help if you would provide the quotes instead of just referencing them. Most of us have heard them before but I think she doesn't know all the ones you're talking about.


EDIT 2: Found some Cait Sith quotes:

The first is his official profile:
Cait Sith rides around on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life. Megaphone in hand, he's always shouting orders and creating dopey attacks. When his slot machine works, the enemy lines look like an overturned toy box. His hobby is fortune telling, but like his personality, it's pretty unreliable.

And translated by yours truly from the U10:

In FFVII, Cait Sith ambushes Cloud and co, introducing himself "I'm a fortune telling machine here!" As for this, it may not be a complete lie as division and Fortune Telling are originally Cait Sith's special skills. In FFVII, the things he says are random, but in BC, he exposes the place of destination exactly, displaying extraordinary skill.

So that seems to say in FFVII what he says is random. Also several times in the U10 it says he lies about being a fortune teller... and I think the UO has some quotes about him being unreliable, but I don't have them handy.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Quote dump that I promised

I appreciate it. Thanks!

Tifa fought alongside Cloud in a battle two years ago. She has a long history of memories with him that are connected to their future, but Cloud eventually distances himself from Tifa - Reunion Files Page 18

Breaking it down:
1. Tifa fought alongside Cloud two years ago (the game), so this quote is about AC/C?
2. Tifa has memories with Cloud that is connected with their future, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be together.
3. It ends with Cloud eventually distancing himself from Tifa, so their future "together" did not happen.

There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a *sweetheart, and a close ally in battle - Reunion Files - Page 19

* sweetheart = koibito which can also be translated as beloved, though the official translation is sweetheart.

There's Johnny who seems to be in love with Tifa, so yes, she's someone's beloved. And this part pretty much talks about her traits as a person, I guess?

Btw, Cloud was also reffered to as 'the woman's koibito'. With 'the woman' referring to Aerith. So Cloud is Aerith's sweetheart/beloved then.

Inside I felt one thing for sure, Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everyone would be back home where they belonged. - Nojima, Reunion Files page 70

I thought this was speaking of locations. Yes, Cloud seem to belong living together with Tifa in Edge, since Tifa's the only connection he has left with Nibelheim, his hometown. And, he can't exactly live with anyone else who's a member of Avalanche.

And living in Edge, he's closer to Aerith's church. :p

The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge. - Tifa's U10 Profile

Do note that the word family was put in between apostrophes. Which may mean that the family was how Tifa sees a family-composed of friends. That's found in CoT. And it would be natural for her to act like the mother of that family, it's one of her traits after all.

Cloud and Tifa's new family. - The title of Denzel's U10 Profile

Refer aboive for the definition Tifa has for a family.

It wouldn’t be a surprise if someone said it was a young father with his two children. If I felt like it, I could go over to that table and be welcomed with smiles. - Tifa in Case of Tifa

So she was also thinking as if she was a stranger who saw the scene as well. I think when she said she would be welcomed with smiles, it was because she would be approaching what seemed to her as a family. Not that she was a part of it. Although, that's just my opinion.

I'd also like to introduce to the table:

Although he's only been living there for a short while, he adores Cloud and Tifa like parents and his bonds with them are strong. - Denzel's U10 profile

Since Cloud and Tifa were acting like parents and taking care of both him and Marlene (on Barret's behalf), then yes, he would really adore them 'like' he would his parents, not 'as' his parents. Just saying.

"First, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to work it out. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think." ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

So if he failed to not include his views, then it seems that his views on romantic love/marriage/family involves a bad thing, since it's about 'things not going well between the two people concerned'. That's not a good thing for Cloud and Tifa, is it?

There isn't a "quote" for this, but yes, in the U20, it has a page of Important Scenes in each and every Final Fantasy. for FFVII, the HA version of the highwind scene is one.

But is it on page 232? And may I know what else counts as an important scene? I was just wondering what the other three were.

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs). - U10 interview

The last line kind of implies that they didn't think people would think Cloud and Tifa had sex during the HW scene because of her lines. Well, that's my thought.

Get ready

*loads shotgun* Kidding. :p

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud."(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."(CCU, pg. 33)

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match." (U20 Scenario, pg. 394)

Wow, I haven't even seen most of the quotes there. Thank you!

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

Feelings of desire for one another = Feelings of love for one another. Is that what you were getting at? Just clearing first.

Cloud and Tifa

Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends, both born in Nibelheim. When Cloud leaves the village, he calls Tifa out to the water tower and promises that he will become a SOLDIER. At the same time, he is also made by Tifa to promise that he will come to rescue her if she is ever in trouble.

Following this, the pair experience many hardships, such as the Nibelheim incident which also appears in CC, and the Jenova War in FFVII, and through these the distance between them shortens. And in AC they live together, with Barret’s daughter Marlene and a boy named Denzel. Though there was also a period later where Cloud lived away from them after having contracted Geostigma, they finally reach a commune with each over and return to living together once again. In DC, they rush together to Vincent’s aid, in his battle against Deep Ground SOLDIER. - Crisis Core Guidebook

His issues got resolved, so yeah, he would naturally come back to the place where he had been living prior to contracting geostigma.

I think you got your quotes mixed up here. I have this one

A taciturn cool soldier who wields a large sword with ease. He is summoned to battle as a warrior of the god of chaos, but goes against his mission to protect a friend who is from his home world: a woman who had now become his enemy. In the 13th Cycle, Cosmos arranges for him to become her warrior. Though losing his memory of the previous battle, he is attacked by a feeling of loss and continues to ask himself what he's fighting for.

and this:
Continuing on his journey while still troubled with questions, he finds a new meaning to fight in aiding his comrades realize their dreams.

Did they say at some point it was Tifa? If they said that I missed that one...

I'll wait for Ryu's post for this one then.

but there's all your quotes for you...I SO need to get my quote dump site back up

It would be a big help.

EDIT

Ryu maybe it would help if you would provide the quotes instead of just referencing them. Most of us have heard them before but I think she doesn't know all the ones you're talking about.


EDIT 2: Found some Cait Sith quotes:

The first is his official profile:
Cait Sith rides around on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life. Megaphone in hand, he's always shouting orders and creating dopey attacks. When his slot machine works, the enemy lines look like an overturned toy box. His hobby is fortune telling, but like his personality, it's pretty unreliable.

And translated by yours truly from the U10:

In FFVII, Cait Sith ambushes Cloud and co, introducing himself "I'm a fortune telling machine here!" As for this, it may not be a complete lie as division and Fortune Telling are originally Cait Sith's special skills. In FFVII, the things he says are random, but in BC, he exposes the place of destination exactly, displaying extraordinary skill.

So that seems to say in FFVII what he says is random. Also several times in the U10 it says he lies about being a fortune teller... and I think the UO has some quotes about him being unreliable, but I don't have them handy.

So the truth of Cait Sith's predictions cannot really be determined. Still, he does have those times when he says the truth. Which times that were, can't be completely said. So, his predictions aren't THAT useless. :p

 

[Dashell]

Feelings of desire for one another = Feelings of love for one another. Is that what you were getting at? Just clearing first.

Exactly

and I need more to this so:

I thought this was speaking of locations. Yes, Cloud seem to belong living together with Tifa in Edge, since Tifa's the only connection he has left with Nibelheim, his hometown. And, he can't exactly live with anyone else who's a member of Avalanche.

And living in Edge, he's closer to Aerith's church. :p

Okay so... why... why was the first thing he thought of was Cloud and Tifa would be living together?

 

[ClerithRaven]

Exactly

Oh, I see where you're coming from then.

Okay so... why... why was the first thing he thought of was Cloud and Tifa would be living together?

Like I said, Tifa's the only connection he has left with his hometown, Nibelheim. And since, they're 'childhood' friends, first one that would come into mind considering who he could live with, would be her.

 

[Dashell]

But he didn't say, "The first thing I thought of was who Cloud would be living with." he said "The first thing I thought of was Cloud and Tifa would be together."

Just seems weird to me that his first thoughts of AC were of Cloud and Tifa only

 

[Vendel]

Like I said, Tifa's the only connection he has left with his hometown, Nibelheim. And since, they're 'childhood' friends, first one that would come into mind considering who he could live with, would be her.

Or he could have not lived with her.

 

[ClerithRaven]

But he didn't say, "The first thing I thought of was who Cloud would be living with." he said "The first thing I thought of was Cloud and Tifa would be together."

Just seems weird to me that his first thoughts of AC were of Cloud and Tifa only

Well, we don't really have an insight to how his mind works. Who know what was really going in his mind at that time. Still, he could have been thinking of what I said earlier. And it's not his first thought. It's just that he felt that and was sure of it. Seeing that he wrote CoT on the premise of them having problems, maybe he was thinking of that too when he was thinking of AC. Oh well. An 18-year-old girl's babblings. :p

 

[Fighter]

Don't overcomplicate things. When they tell you half a dozen times that Cloud and Tifa share feelings for each other and are together and put them up on the FF romance dedicated section. The explanation is... self-explanatory, they are together.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Part of this is in reply to posts CR made on the front page.

I remember saying that our arguments are from facts, which we have interpreted. I don&#8217;t remember where I &#8216;claimed my argument as &#8220;what I believe is the truth&#8221;&#8217;. I did say that we have out own truths. But I don&#8217;t think I said that only what I believe is the truth. You confined yourself to that word just because I said that one statement is enough for me to love Clerith.

No, you have said the word belief on numerous occasions in these replies.
"But, C/T is your belief is it not?"
"What he had here is a conclusion towards his beliefs according to what he has interpreted based on what was presented. Is it not?"
And you said "No, I said it was enough for me to believe in Clerith." about your one evidence, actually.
"The thing in a debate is that you criticize the argument. Not the belief itself."

You've said your arguments are from facts. But you've also talked about a belief in C/A and this being about belief, without really providing any facts for your argument.

Like I said, you have your own standards to determine which facts/argument is concrete. So do I. Our arguments have strong facts and evidences, since they are very official and all-so we believe them. How does that differ from yours?

In the immediate term, I've been at least loosely referencing mine. In the long term, the evidence I use is always with a look at the big picture. To use just this page as an example, I take a look at the header, both its title and its explanation. I take a look at the surrounding discussion, about FF3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10. Take note of what is said. I take note of the smaller heading in the corner, not it discusses non romantic love, in contrast to the romantic love discussed in the main header. I realize that nearly all the other places are discussing big romantic confession of display scenes, The context would suggest that both FF7 examples would relate to this. I see the date- which I know to involve such attempts at romance on an unwitting and unaware Cloud, and the Highwind scene, which in one version contains the Risque Line 'words aren't the only way, etc.' So, by the context, both are discussing romance. Now, from another quote in the U10, I know that Cloud is Oblivious to both Aerith and Tifa's advances through the date sequence at least, and from yet another that he becomes aware of Tifa's feelings in the lifestream when she becomes aware of his. Looking at the text for both I see the date sequence is emphasizing the choice of the matter, discussing the dating mini-game. Looking at the text of the Highwind, it's emphasizing the mutuality of the feelings, that they are confirmed, and confirmed without words.
I have lots of facts. I never examine them in isolation. Down that road lies madness and misinterpretation. Like a forensic scientist, I use the facts, as many facts as I can, what each fact says about itself and about other facts, to form a coherent picture.

Vendel, you only interpreted it to be feelinsg of love because of the page title and with the premise that Tifa loves Cloud. But that isn&#8217;t just the emotions they would have been feeling at that moment.

But these are the only feelings that would be mentioned on the page about love. You're special pleading.

And you conclude that it is feelings of romance because of the page title. That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m getting from this.

Please see above as to why that is quite untrue. Further, trying to argue that that which is discussed in that one paragraph is entirely anathema to the purpose of the rest of the page is just mind bogglingly absurd.

I do understand that it is. But having it there, among the pictures of &#8216;canon couples&#8217;, does not have any merit whatsoever? I don&#8217;t get that logic.

There are no words for the lack of self reflection you have displayed in uttering these words in this context.
There are no words for the chutzpah of doing so immediately after attempting to argue that the high highwind scene cannot be the official version because a deviation is listed. In the same train of thought as arguing that the feelings in the scene being discussed could have been something other than romantic love. Seriously. Having said this is the very height of self-defeat and audacity in a single package.
You realize, I desperately hope, that "having it there, among the pictures of &#8216;canon couples&#8217; [shows it has merit]" is exactly what you're arguing AGAINST for the Highwind entry, don't you?
In any case, the text on this very page talks about the fact that your actions determine who goes on the date. That alone isn't enough to say we don't can't say which is canon, but it is enough to say that which date in particular happens isn't overly important to the subject of romance in FF7.
It's everything else, with all the conflicting evidence, that makes us conclude that we can't tell which of the dates happened.
I've seen someone try and use collectible cards to prove that Aerith's date happened, but accepting those cards means the high highwind date also happens, since it uses 'words aren't' as one of Tifa's noteworthy quotes.

Didn&#8217;t we already do this in the forum. Where you admitted to having your files mixed up?

No, we did not. Because the important scenes pages still exist. I simply had their page numbers mislabeled. The High Highwind scene is STILL one of the four most important scenes of Final Fantasy 7- and I did provide that page for you. My numbering mistake didn't negate the whole rest of the evidence listed, or the fact that even p232 only mentions the deviation. It gives attention in the main column and in the sidebar mentioning the deviation to the high version, not the low. I was wrong on a particular. But that particular has been corrected and incorporated, since I actually, y'know, sat down and read the page provided. I do that. It's a terrible habit.

But nowhere can I see that it&#8217;s stated to be officially canon. Isn&#8217;t it your assumption then because it appears most of the time?

Due to the consistent, preponderant evidence, the attention given to the scene in interviews and in this sourcebook, and the fact that events which only happen in the high version have been repeatedly confirmed as occuring, on that I conclude that the High Highwind happened.
This is the same reason we conclude that Vincent was on the Sister Ray. The very same reason we conclude he and Yuffie joined the party. Nothing says 'YES, THEY DID' in big bold neon letters, but the consequences of those actions have been confirmed, so they must have happened. Given that an outcome has happened, and that the outcome can only be achieved in a certain way, we thus know the certain way also must have happened.

Just because I gave one reason doesn&#8217;t mean I have only that. What I said was not even arguing about Clerith being the canon couple. It was about me seeing the romance between Cloud and Aerith.

But that one reason is still all you have given for why you see a romance between Cloud and Aerith OR them being a canon couple. All the stuff I cited? All of that is about Cloud and Tifa's romance, AND it's about them being canon.

Belief that our arguments are valid because we have evidences to support it. Don&#8217;t you believe your arguments true as well because you have your facts to support it? How does that differ from ours really?

That's no more belief than 'believing' that my car will start is my point. And how it differs is that ours involves context. Yours, as you have JUST DEMONSTRATED, must actively deny the context. That's a pretty goddamn major difference.

For one, we have an official statement saying that Cloud carries his own feelings for Aerith that is different from Aerith&#8217;s comrades. Then we have Cloud acting so heartbroken over Aerith&#8217;s death, which we are discussing in the forum. We also have the part where Cloud wants to meet Aerith again as he said in the ending of FF7.

Alright. What leads you to believe those feelings are love, and not guilt, when it is Cloud's guilt which plagues him through FF7 and what he seeks Aerith out to be rid of? What makes you describe Cloud as 'heartbroken' over Aerith's death, as opposed to Zack's? If Cloud wants to meet Aerith again, why does he instead do exactly not that and decide to begin his new life with Tifa and move in with her?

Further, Cloud and Tifa both want to meet Aerith, according to the UO. They both talk about this as they are hanging from a cliff edge, their very survival unlikely. Cloud has just realized that death isn't the end, that there's something beyond, and he tells Tifa that he thinks it's possible to meet people in the lifestream (The Japanese is literally 'think can meet' with no specifying pronouns.) to which Tifa is the one who responds 'let's meet.' It is Tifa who actually expresses desire to meet Aerith. Cloud merely expresses realization that one can.

And further furthermore, they do. They meet Aerith. At the end of FF7. There's no more need to go looking. Until Cloud's guilt begins building. And then Aerith's either incapable or unwilling to help him til AC.

Seriously, CR, play the damn game. You're bringing a knife to a gun fight without playing the game.

I did. You manage to hit one of my &#8220;berserk buttons&#8221;, as you call it.

Go me.

In fact it&#8217;s my interpretation that they are in fact not involved in the story. It&#8217;s my belief based on the fact that this is what I believe.

This looks familiar. You used my defense in a very very wrong way.

No, actually. Your defense boils down to 'it's optional, therefore we have no canon version' WRT the Highwind scene. This is patently nonsense if you apply it to any other situation.
And before we turn that around to discuss the date, I'd love to be able to say which date or dates were actually canon. But that's an inconsistent shitpile of contradictions, unlike most other scenes with multiple versions focused on.

Would Cloud say lines regarding Zack's smile or laughter? In the montage we saw when Zack died, Cloud remembered their moments together yes, but it wasn't about Zack's smile or laughter, it was about the times they had where Zack supported him.

Which does not answer my question of would it be unusual for Cloud to have done so. You're evading the question. I know what Cloud did. I'm asking would it be unusual? Who gives a shit if he 'would.' I am asking, quite bluntly, consider if he 'did.'

For those who ship Clack, then tossing Zack in there would be very much romantic. Again, even if Zack was there in place of Aerith, Cloud's lines would me inclined to how much Zack has been there for him in SOLDIER.

Twice now, you've evaded the question and added additional terms. WITHOUT PREVIOUS ROMANTIC ASSUMPTIONS, which is what I am getting at, so Clackers are completely a red herring, would those lines, being said about a deceased Zack, lead YOU, yes, YOU to arrive at the idea there was a romance between the two.
Do not discuss what he did elsehwere. Do not discuss what the crackshippers would do. Discuss THE SCENARIO PRESENTED.

Like what we're trying to do now.

You're not even getting half the stick. No one's accused you of subhumanity, yet. Even the responses you're getting are generally short and to the point rather than a gish gallop.

All right then.

Good.

To you. Like I said, we're all different.

Remember, this is about whether Cloud was nodding out of the habit of nodding in the affirmative, or nodding because he's 'reassure [himself] that what [he] was saying was true' as you say you do. Either way, he's affirming that his heart called out to Tifa. Regardless of which way this winds up, the salient point is agreed upon.

What you've said are your evidences for supporting that Cloti is canon. Your interpretation on what SE has published. I don't even know half of the statements you said was in the books so quotes would be darn helpful.

Quex has gotten most of these. I see you have replied to them piece by piece. I do hope you consider them in the grander context.

How does Shakespeare's work relate to SE's FF7?

Because Hamlet was not shagging Yorick, but still mentioned positive qualities about the man he missed, like the lips which he had kissed so many times he knew not how oft. Like I said, your argument was that remembering things you'll miss about the deceased must mean romance. I cited shakespeare for a deliberate undercutting of that argument, and to add in some humor. Gravedigger scene's funny, man.

The deed was done. Aerith was dead. Sephiroth did not have to control Cloud anymore.

Yes he did. Because Sephiroth was trying to break Cloud and turn him into a puppet. Killing Aerith was something Sephiroth needed done. Breaking Cloud's will and making him a tool is something Sephiroth WANTED done.

So why would Cloud have those symptoms if the reason was fighting Sephiroth's control when what the silver-haired man wanted had already come to fruition?

Cloud's not an obedient vegetable. What Sephypoo wanted had not come to fruition. What he needed done had been done. What he wanted hadn't.

Btw... War of the Lions? What is that?

Final Fantasy Tactics re-release for the PSP with a superior translation.

She had complicated feelings that a woman had for a love rival. Pretty much says jealousy to me.

She had complicated feelings that a woman had for her true friend who was also the cause of Cloud's guilt. At all times, it must be remembered that Tifa's true feelings towards Aerith are love, friendship, and appreciation. If they were jealousy, these feelings would still be complicated after Aerith's intervention, as that would have done nothing to change the feelings. But if they are related to the guilt she unwittingly caused, her intervention, helping to remove that guilt, would uncomplicate the feelings and allow her to express them clearly, as she does after Aerith's intervention.

When? When they were kids? Kids grow up and changes happen. If she got a look at Cloud in the lifestream, then how could she have helped him regain his true self when the first time she sees Cloud as him is during the lifestream event? She may have helped, but only as a starter. She provided one memory, then Cloud did the rest of the remembering from his point of view. Tifa wouldn't have known.

Cloud HAD to do the remembering. It could only count if it was a Memory Cloud remembered that Tifa could verify.

In those 14 years, how much time did Tifa actually spend with Cloud as seen in the game? The well scene pretty much sums it up. Other interactions are merely assumptions after that.

In those 14 years, we have, AGAIN, seen TEN MINUTES of their childhood. You would argue that they only ever spent ten minutes out of 14 years together. Now THAT is an amazing assumption.

Cloud's feelings of grief about Aerith's death pretty much comes up often too. Cloud also asks Aerith for assurance of himself. Tifa was still very much alive so she couldn't have been the memory. He says at one point that he'll do the rest for Aerith, which probably is what he was fighting for.

No, what Cloud was fighting for was the very personal memory.

"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."

Now, Cloud does refer to 'an important Memory' elsewhere in the game and that's his memory of being in Tifa's room. In fact, nearly every mention of memory or memories in the last two discs refers to Cloud's persona or true past. Ironically, the only time Aerith is mentioned in relation to memory, Cloud's telling everyone 'we have to let go of her memory.'

And I was merely pointing out that not only can his happiness lead to strain.

Which is a completely and utterly irrelevant tangent.

The difference is that in Japanese it's a question, but in English it's a statement. Taking the English one, we see it as a reassurance. In the question, also a reassurance. Is that it?

No, in the japanese, it's asking Cloud if he/ things will be okay. In the english, it's asking Cloud if he can see things'll be okay. In both, the tone contains 'without us' because of the context of the dead departing for the white void.

The difference with your goodbye is that you see it as a permanent parting. For Aerith, that's not the case.

... It isn't? Based on what?

So it's more like a Farewell. Aerith can come back, well, spiritually, like the time she held his arm and helped him in the Bahamut Scene. No goodbyes were necessary from her.

That was BEFORE this scene.What indicates she can STILL come back? If she can, why did she not do so a year later when she would have been very useful?

Zack's presence did not need Aerith's at that time. Cloud waking up in the water was like him being born again.

Uh, if you mean this in ANY remotely literal sense, you are going to have to very heavily substantiate it.

And I do remember somewhere that those who have just been and will be in the Lifestream can see those who are presently there.

Where are you getting this line of thinking from, exactly? Is this another essay, because I have the sneaking suspicion that it is.

That could be the reason why Zack was seen by Cloud. And can't the man visit a friend when he finally can?

Why not indeed. But more importantly, why DOESN'T Aerith?

Goodbyes seem permanent. Farewells are temporary. That's my definition.
Being a Cetra is special in itself. That's shown in the game and throughout AC/C.

Living Cetra are special. But what makes a Cetra special while alive CANNOT translate to the lifestream unless it is directly related to their mind, which is the only thing that goes to the lifestream, which means anyone could figure it out and be special too, which is entirely my point. Zack can be special too.

So you're now abandoning your first statement that the presence of his friends and family were part of the reason the Church was his Promised Land.

Err, what? No... I'm not saying THAT at all. What I am saying was that the presence of the wolf meant NO place could be the promised land, because even that which would have made Cloud happy- his family- was feeding the perpetuating loop. What it's all about is Cloud forgiving himself.

He could have been happy living there since it's where Aerith's presence is strongest. Just a thought. :p

But he wasn't happy there.

And the passage says 'the place', not 'the time'. Taking it to mean that it's his promised land because his guiltwolf has vanished when he wakes up is your interpretation.

And your alternate 'interpretation' is without merit since Cloud is decidedly not happy even when Aerith is around. He IS happy when the guiltwolf- the metaphysical symbol of his psychological burden- vanishes. Not before.

If you could tell me a statement released by SE that when Cloud lived in the Church he wasn't really happy, then fine, it's not making him happy.

So, I now have to prove a negative to you?

Spoiler: ...

If you think Cloud was happy at the church, PROVE IT.

That elsewhere being? The U20?

The U10. That we host on the front page. That I have already quoted before.

I've taken a liking to Cloud's line at the end of FF7. He can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Where did he see Aerith again?

Over Midgar. A few minutes after making that statement to Tifa. A few hours before telling Tifa he figured he could successfully start a new life because he had Tifa by his side this time in a different way than she had been by his side previously. This was said while blushing.

The Church. That's one of the reasons I believe it's not just about his guilt vanishing which makes the church his Promised Land.

So, because you think Cloud was looking for Aerith despite seeing her immediately after mentioning that he (and Tifa, whom he was speaking to) could see Aerith in the promised land, and then spending two years doing anything but search for Aerith, that the church is his promised land because he sees Aerith in it?

But the feelings expressed under the Highwind can't be of love because it doesn't explicitly say in that very sentence that they're of love.
Words fail me to describe the double standard I see forming.

To answer your question, first, could we really say that Cloud planted those flowers? They could've just grew there. If he did, then it could be taken to mean as an offering to his dead best bud. Second, moving the Buster in Aerith's church would be more convenient. If he moved the sword there, he could now remember Zack together with Aerith every time he goes to the Church.

Yes, Cloud planted those flowers. There were none there at the beginning. There are none anywhere else around. Cloud had to have planted them there. He plants flowers- the symbol of Aerith and her church, while moving the symbol of Zack to the church. He is linking their memories and uniting them even in death. Uniting the two in death as they were united in life.
Seems a bit odd to bring your lover's ex into your special place with her.

The girl said, "It's like she said... <b>Wait here</b> and Cloud will come back. Prior to that, we see a scene where it is implied that Aerith instructs them to go to the Church. The next we know, viola, Cloud's awake in the middle of the pond of water.

Which leads to Magic lifestream teleporting HOW...?
And it cannot be spoken figuratively because...?

I forgot where this one started. Remind me please.
Also, I take it that it was at that part that Cloud also asked Aerith for assurance that he was an Ex-Soldier. If I find the quote, I'll be more sure. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.

Sephiroth failed to break Cloud- his true goal- by killing Aerith. He ONLY succeeded by using Tifa and Cloud's trust in her to plant the seed of doubt into Cloud to crumble his resistance. And EVEN AFTER THIS, Cloud says

"Especially you, Tifa. I'm really sorry. You've been good to me...... I don't know what to say...
I never lived up to being 'Cloud'. Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'."

Even after losing his very faith in himself, his foremost thoughts are for Tifa, and the hope that she'll get to meet the real Cloud, since he couldn't be it.

But do we see it? No. He doesn't change his clothes. Ever.

We see him, over the course of two years, a total of ten minutes, and then one three day period in which he has no time to take a dump much less switch suits.

Then it can exist which does not connect to any particular room. Why are we discussing bathrooms again?

Because we are expected to think of these narrative constructs as real people by the writer and that entails expecting human like behavior out of them.

So watching you sleep is like a privilege.

Very much so.

Plain thinking of it differs from believing it to be necessary.

HOW? How is it materially different and how is this different relevant to the discussion?

We don't know how Aerith came to know she has the cure. It could have come to her during the events of AC/C, which we don't have her point of view.

The cure was Great Gospel. She had it on Disc 1.

2 years is a long time for change to happen. Plus what I said above this.

COLW occurs over the course of 2 years and her last entry occurs shortly before the film. Her thoughts and opinions have very little time to change in from that point.

Where have I <b>indicated that it was warranted</b>? I thought I said that it's what I've also seen or observed?

Did you not say you agreed with the assessment?

Yeah and I was saying that he isn't exactly one who would be luxurious about his bed.

But you're trying to say that by using a camping roll he's using while seeking forgiveness. Should we also assume Cloud doesn't wipe because he has no toilet paper there?

Denzel, who he initially believed was brought to him by Aerith.

How is that relevant to the fact that once denzel showed up Cloud's relationship with the family, including Tifa, improved considerably because he made a greater effort to spend time with all of them?
Unless you're saying Cloud thought Aerith was telling him to spend more time with Tifa and the rest.

She had asked it, meaning she had been thinking of it. And the 'is that it?' line makes it seem like she's confirming what she thinks.

No. No it does not. 'Is that it' is pressing him for an answer. It is a rhetorical device. And it worked.

And when did he resume/start fighting? After Aerith coaxes him into forgiving himself.

No. He resumes fighting after Tifa coaxes his ass off the bed. Cloud's off to fight before Aerith appears. Cloud thinks back to the conversation after this, but the conversation happened first. Nonlinear storytelling. Natch.

I will not need to play since it seems you clearly can provide sufficient information, with you telling me to play it often. And it was at that moment that Tifa noticed how Cloud had formed a special bond with Aerith, after which she acted peevishly.

PLAY THE GAME. It's been a suggestion before. It is now no longer a suggestion. If you wish to continue discussing the narrative of a visual story, a visual interactive story, especially to state with any authority what you think the canon is or isn't, you go experience that story.
I am providing you with information, but that is no substitute for playing the game. And I have my limits.
And you are incorrect. Tifa does not act peevishly there or even most of the time. The one time she acts peevish is when she's ignored by Aerith in ShinRa tower. The rest of the time she and Aerith are on best of terms, often picking on Cloud together.

Cloud gave her a reason to focus on Aerith then. Haha.
Might I add, Cloud first thought Aerith brought Denzel only to him. Not even thinking of Tifa. That was selfish of him. LOL.

Cloud thought only he needed to make amends for his failures. Learning he wasn't in it alone made him happy.

Still, they also helped.

... You really just don't want to recognize the invaluable contribution of Tifa and the others, don't you. I point out that multiple living people helped in addition to the dead, and your response is 'The dead helped too'
I wasn't denying that. But you completely glossed over the aid of the living, and still barely recognize them.

It's her reassuring Cloud that everything was all right, all along.

No... because you see, the original line that has not needed to make concessions to the terrible gods of ADR is asking if Things will be alright. Not asserting it.

Too much strain isn't healthy either.

AND? Are you saying they do have too much strain? If so, SUPPORT IT. If not? IRRELEVANT.

Asked? More like insisted.

Right, I'll be over here, in the area of the forum where we don't make unnecessary character jabs to make invalid points.

Wow. Talk about Cait Sith issues.

The fuck? I have no issues with Cait. He's an unreliable fucking fortuneteller. That's his GIMMICK.

I was saying that his lines became more important because he managed to diss Sephiroth and continue his sulking.

How does that make them important? And sulking? Play the game. WATCH the scenes. You're missing out on the audio and the visual aspects of the game.

But was there a mention of his heart being torn when he visits Zack's grave? None.

No. BUT, y'know who else's heart was torn when visiting Aerith's grave?
"But the pain she felt when she visited the place tore her heart apart."
AeTi. You have just argued for AeTi.
Context. Know it. Love it. Use it well.

I did say that it could be marketing ploy to keep people reminded of FF7.

That does not address that there was NO NEED to make those sequels about ZACK and emphasize his RELATIONSHIP with Aerith. DoC didn't have that. Before Crisis didn't have that. They also reminded people of 7. But CC did have that. And you're trying to argue that they emphasized Zack and Aerith's relationship purely to remind people of FF7, when they didn't have to do it at all.

But no one seems to be interested in bringing them in it, are they? Since the focus is only on Aerith-Cloud-Tifa.

No. The focus is on Cloud/Tifa. Cloud and Tifa get the shared keyword. They get the future together. They belong together.

Do we really ignore it? We just say that Aerith's death has more impact/effect

Yes, you do downplay and ignore Zack. Often.

Then people should not have to comment on one point differently. Since you made your point on mine, another person who has the similar point should not feel the need to do the same. But no, there's two replies for one point-meaning that one reply is not really that similar to the other.

Which doesn't prevent you from aggregating them, adressing their similar elements together and dissimilar elements apart.

That's why I say it's a feat for him to do so.

No it isn't. It's not a feat. It's normal. Natural. No big thing. Maybe it is to SEPHIROTH, but why should it be to Cloud?

I take it novella non grata kind of means you're not seeing MotP as canon.

It means SE does not give a singular, categorical shit about Maiden.

How many times have you told me that already? How can I play the darn game if I don't have the time or the copy? Sheesh!

Ten Dollars. PSN. GO.

Before the game even began? How is that possible?

Because she realized from what he said and how he acted that he wasn't himself.
This is said IN GAME. So not only have you not even PLAYED THE GAME, you haven't even READ THE SCRIPT.

For the post water tower part, assumptions then.

All you have given us is assumptions.

Aerith helped Tifa help Cloud, not to Cloud. Lamenting over it is normal since she did want to do it herslef. But thanks to a certain person, she can't. Thankfully, she has a special ability which made it possible for Tifa to help Cloud.

Even Maiden does not say 'Aerith helped Tifa recontruct Cloud' Is says she Guided Tifa TO Cloud and watched from the sidelines because she was unable to communicate with Cloud as SHE HERSELF makes quite a bit of note about in a previous chapter.

If you say so.

Yes. I say so. And the creators say so. AND THE GAME SAYS SO. AND THE NOVELLAS SAY SO.
AND YOU SHOULD GET UP AND ACTUALLY DO SOME RESEARCH.

It should not be so frustrating since referencing the game seems to be your favorite.

I like referencing Shakespeare and Star Wars too. Discussing THOSE with someone who'd never read or watched either would STILL be frustrating.

Now, this is my berserk button. The creation process of MotP was supervised by SE. Just because it's not written by a staff of SE makes it useless? Wow. And what's with it not being recognized? Being published is recognition in itself.

And then summarily ignored in every work to come out since.
Back in the day, there were official comic books released by Star Wars. Guess how many of them are still canon? Not many. None have been officially removed. They've all been quietly made irrelevant by other material. Same with Maiden. No one gives enough of a crap to try and keep up with it.
The immediate next release- AND Quex, do not give me shit on this, you know full well the point I'm making here- made an entire chapter of the novella impossible.
And no, MOTP was NOT supervised by SE. Benny has said it wasn't. Hell, it's not even in the Index of the UO. It's listed after the index. It's really not credited by SE AT ALL. It's not really credited in the UO.

CR, You have not played FF7.

What HAVE you played, read, or watched, that is relevant to FF7 and thus this discussion? Answer honestly, and completely.

Come on Ryu, I've addressed this many times before. There's an article here on TLS that addresses this point:

and taken from our very own main page:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/7025/ffvii-and-canon-2/3/

It's a very weak argument. Not to be semantic, but the quote does say 'witness to his blurry memory' and in the same sentence describes the process of restoring his memory. I'll admit, it COULD be describing two quite disparate periods of time and not the part where Tifa literally witnesses Cloud's memories, but that's in the same sense one CAN fit the Nanaki episode from BC into the greater continuity. It's possible with a few assumptions and still doesn't fit right. A more parsimonious explanation by far is that witnessing the memory literally refers to witnessing memories.

Nice try, but I'm pretty sure in both Maiden and the original game, there are spirits in the lifestream. Tifa's profile seems to be the only one that implies that there isn't.

Unless you're saying there aren't spirits there. Is that what you're saying?

Or the spirits aren't aware. And thus they can't be witnesses. There was no rhyme or reason to what was shouted, or any indication that they were actually aware of their surroundings. COLW would support this, with Aerith needing to explain shit to those she'd rallied. Spirits exist. But it doesn't mean they were watching. The CCU quote doesn't require spirits not to exist for those spirits to not having line of sight into Cloud's mind.

 

[Dashell]

Further, Cloud and Tifa both want to meet Aerith, according to the UO. They both talk about this as they are hanging from a cliff edge, their very survival unlikely. Cloud has just realized that death isn't the end, that there's something beyond, and he tells Tifa that he thinks it's possible to meet people in the lifestream (The Japanese is literally 'think can meet' with no specifying pronouns.) to which Tifa is the one who responds 'let's meet.' It is Tifa who actually expresses desire to meet Aerith. Cloud merely expresses realization that one can.

But the UO specifically states that the one they want to meet is Aerith, so Cloud was speaking of Aerith.

and am I understanding this right. ClerithRaven has never played FFVII? Is this true?

 

[Ryushikaze]

But the UO specifically states that the one they want to meet is Aerith, so Cloud was speaking of Aerith.

Not arguing that they weren't. I'm ARGUING that CLOUD did not express the desire, just the realization that it could be done. TIFA expresses the desire. And then the two of them go meet her a few minutes later.

and am I understanding this right. ClerithRaven has never played FFVII? Is this true?

Hasn't even read the full script.

 

[Dashell]

Hasn't even read the full script.

Well that's just kind of silly.

So ClerithRaven, what do you know about Cloud and Aerith? I mean what makes you like them if you haven't played the game?

 

[ClerithRaven]

To answer Discord/Quexinos:

Yes, you're right. I haven't played the game.

And why I loved Cloud and Aerith? The first time I saw them was in AC. They were the couple that appealed to me. I didn't even know there was a love triangle until I discovered the online world. LOL. And don't take it to mean that I haven't tried seeing the CloTi side. I did, but I just didn't feel that they had a connection.

Frankly, even if I did play the game, I don't think my love for Clerith will change. There was only one scene which seemed to make CloTi stand out, the HW scene. And obviously, I'm don't see it as something romantic.

Ryu, I'm in class right now. So, I'm going to reply to you when I get home. :p

 

[Celes Chere]

Yes, you're right. I haven't played the game.

 

[Dashell]

It would probably help you a lot if you did play it the game to at least know what we were talking about. I mean right now you've only heard hearsay arguments about it (like I'm assuming someone told you that Tifa constantly acted peevish when Aerith and Cloud were together, but this is simply not the case), but playing it will give you your own point of view. If you can't play it, you could probably at least

A. Read the script
B. Watch a walkthough online

Neither of these completely substitute playing the game, but it would certainly help.

 

[Vendel]

And why I loved Cloud and Aerith? The first time I saw them was in AC. They were the couple that appealed to me. I didn't even know there was a love triangle until I discovered the online world. LOL. And don't take it to mean that I haven't tried seeing the CloTi side. I did, but I just didn't feel that they had a connection.

Now this fascinates me. What exactly did you see in AC that made you think "couple" when it comes to Cloud and Aerith? Cloud has more time with Tifa in one scene than Aerith has time in the movie period. And for most of her screen time in the movie Zack is right there with her.

 

[Elisa Maza]

OK, ClerithRaven, break time here: Do something. It doesn't matter what, read the script, watch a walkthrough (preferable), but you HAVE to do something in order for your arguments to have any value in this debate. This isn't a berating from my part, it's an honest advice. Judging just from ACC is simply the -if not wrong- then at least mislead mindset.

It's like you argue in favour of Sessomaru/Kagome by having seen just the fanarts (not the best example, but I couldn't think of anything else!)