The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

What gets me is how some of them use the relationship charts to show nothing romantic is between Cloud and Tifa, but they deny that Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends.

Are the charts accurate or not?

 

[Ryushikaze]

They are accurate for exactly the purposes the Pinkers want them to be accurate for. That is how evidence works. One standard for what you think helps you, another standard for anything that would hurt you or help the opposition. You should know that by now.

[The Above message was brought to you by Ryu's extreme sarcasm and justified bitterness at seeing the same shit pulled time and time again not just in the current debate, but many others as well]

 

[Danseru-kun]

Just recently saw a post about TLS just using the FTOIL page and not the whole picture and dismissing other arguments as "opinions and interpretation." Because of this I might write a whole detailed defense but it depends.

I wrote a response (not directly to that post) and here it is unadulterated:

Thanks for this. The bottomline is that TLS and CA forums has different cultures. As a member of TLS, people there are frank and sarcastic over anything, sometimes I even get an ouch too. Let’s just say they’re a bit more insensitive than the general internet people. Though I do agree that people there don’t walk around wearing halos, the site is disproportionally judged by a single LTD thread.

I have been there for over a year and though the past seems much more brutal, things have mellowed down there. And there is also the issue that some of the people in the TLS are sick of getting bashed in the CA forums, especially those hardworking translators who from neutral became “biased Clotis” overnight because they translated something Cloti. I also know someone that argues that Dismantled and MWTTP is canon (major Clerith materials,) defending Cleriths, but then gets shunned by her Clerith friends because she thinks Cloti is canon and argues that the translations are romantic.

And Ryu’s article is usually said to be the “main LTD article” of TLS when it’s not. It’s something he wrote for 20 mins. in the morning which he never realized could have been so offensive. The site’s main article is Tres/Squall of Seed’s ’ “LTD Analysis.”

And the site also accepts Clerith editorials, one is published at the front page.

The site does not allow bashing of Aerith, unlike what Tifa gets in another forum. It also does not allow the copy-pasting of stuff (without the knowledge of the author) in other forums and sites like tumblr then bringing it in the forum to be ripped apart unlike the CA forums.

And if you see comments saying members there are "bashing" Clerith, it’s usually in the context where some shippers insist Cloud is not happy with his family, Tifa’s a nagging bitch, Aerith is the only important person to Cloud and no one else matters etc. But I agree that some members there can be inconsiderate too and I dislike it when they use “Clerith” to generalize the people who hold that kind of view.

TLS also has a Clerith club along with all pairing clubs… which are all inactive because people there would prefer to talk about general things than shipping.

Again, TLS is not a holy site that tells the truth but I appreciate it’s effort to improve itself and contribute to the fandom other than promote a single pairing. It hosts the best FFVII articles you can find and you’re allowed to say your opinion at all parts of the forum. There are no rules on what you can say about your OTP and you’re free to ship anything.

If you want to see a site bashing Cleriths, it’s the Destinyfailed.blogspot.com. But even that site just bashes the ones stationed in the CA forums and respond to the Cloti bashing at that site.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I've just recently seen that post when I explored the Cloti tag.

I know I'm not supposed to bring it up here but since I don't have a tumblr and I was quoted there OUT OF CONTEXT, I feel that I should defend myself. I'm entitled to that. Feel free to punish me for this post.

These were the quotes taken out of my posts and out of context. Apparently, if someone doesn't like Cloti in TLS, we will ALL act like this:

"Cloti isn't canon, and neither is our ship, so our ship wins! Somehow! Because logic!"

ACC was pretty much a stab in the back and front and sides to them. The FTOIL page was like salt and vinegar to those stab wounds. So let them say what they want, let them throw their temper tantrums. It doesn't change what facts (that don't need interpretation) there are present from the past and present (hi, Compilation, hi Dissidia Duodecim).

Let's go with the first quote. I PUT THE HUGE WACKY FACE UNDER THE POST IN A SPOILER TAG. PLUS REPTAR WAS THERE. Did people really think I was seriously bashing anyone who disliked Cloti? Did you guys thank my post because you thought I was right in bashing anyone disliking Cloti?

I guess they might be new, because I have claimed once before that I do not generalize Cleriths. I still don't. Nor do I generalize Cloti haters, because... well, people have many reasons to hate Cloti. People who knew me since I started here know that I talk and "bash" only the rabid ones, and they know who they are. If they take what I say too personally then...

No, if I were bashing anyone, it would be the people who have recently been putting down Cloti and calling people (namely Danseru) a liar. As Danseru has also said, they have been calling great translators who worked hard to give the fandom material they can actually understand "biased/rabid". I don't think they have the right to complain about what TLS is allegedly doing when they do the same things themselves.

As for the second quote, I was obviously talking about the people in the previous post. The same ones that I may actually be "bashing". If they think it's for everyone who dislikes Cloti, then nothing more needs to be said.

I think we should all just put disclaimers on our posts now, in case people think everyone on TLS is like this.

Disclaimer: This post does not reflect TLS as a whole. I am but a single member of this forum. Oh and, you should try looking at other threads besides the LTD thread too. And read the other articles on the front page. There's more than the FTOIL article.

I hang out in the LTD thread mainly because it's entertaining. I like internet dramas. I'm here to troll. You there, checking out the LTD thread, are you here to troll, find dramas, or actually figure out what TLS is all about? If it's the last one, get out of the LTD thread right now and check out the rest of the forums.

By the way, Danseru, I don't think you should say the site's main article is the LTD Analysis. It still makes TLS seem LTD-centered... when it isn't.




edit: I'M A CLACK, PEOPLE. I look down on both Clotis and Cleriths alike. I just happen to agree with the more sensible people who don't judge me by my ship and actually see Zack's importance to Cloud. Unlike some people.

CLACK 4EVER

 

[Unlucky]

Shit-talking any of the translators for providing canon info you don't agree with (lol) is just plain disrespectful. Without them every fan who knows zero about the Japanese language couldn't have access to canon info. These people have contributed so much to the site and to the fandom as well. I appreciate their contributions and effort (don't we all), and for their credibility to be questioned or be outright described as biased and unreliable due to shipping wars, ffs, is totally UNFAIR. Wtf.

 

[Dashell]

I also know someone that argues that Dismantled and MWTTP is canon (major Clerith materials,) defending Cleriths, but then gets shunned by her Clerith friends because she thinks Cloti is canon and argues that the translations are romantic.

Is this me? I don't think I was ever "shunned" by them really. I get disagreed with but I'm not sure I'd qualify that as shunned.

It's hard to be a translator in the LTD world because no matter what you translate, it's always going to be put under a microscope and dissected by someone. I don't mind when people point things out that I did wrong, but I want them to do it to help me not because "Well this can't be right, I disagree with it!" Know what I mean?

No one is innocent in this area of the fandom. It just brings out the worst in everyone and.. when you think about it, it's really not that big of a deal. So it shouldn't bring about such horrible reactions from people... but it just does... as others have pointed it, it becomes some kind of weirdo competition at some point.

Like "Well Clotis do THIS but Cleriths do THAT!" or "Well Cloti has THIS quote but THIS quote for Clerith is even better!" and stuff and that's really not what this should be about...

to quote a very smart man's rap:

I'm just like fuck it; you wanna be making this into a competition?

But you seem to forget that your contest leads you right into perdition

... yeah I can totally bring brony stuff into anything

 

[Morana]

I am really grateful to TLS translators. Without their effort, I wouldn't know all these things I know now because I don't speak Japanese and I don't have access to a lot of official documents. So, thanks for your time and will to provide fans of FFVII and all other FF games this great translations.

And I am sorry translations are used in a negative light because one ship is not happy how things turned out. Have some respect. Don't diss other people's hard work because you don't like what this translations say. It is disrespectful and immature.

Edit: I just wanted to say that it is not my intention to generalize. As far as I know there are people on this forum who ship CloudxAerith and they are grateful for the translations. They even defended translators on other forums against people who ship same couple they do.

 

[Danseru-kun]

By the way, Danseru, I don't think you should say the site's main article is the LTD Analysis. It still makes TLS seem LTD-centered... when it isn't.

Well it's a response to those saying TLS only looks at the FTOIL page and not the whole context and Ryu's article "ends the LTD and screw everyone who disagrees." But it will be edited. And note what I wrote is not a full defense, it's just a simple reply.

Is this me? I don't think I was ever "shunned" by them really. I get disagreed with but I'm not sure I'd qualify that as shunned.

Then I'll edit. You know, I just repeated what Tres said pages ago.

Despite all her effort, she was shunned, ignored and ultimately betrayed by people she believed were her friends. And all because their petty egos can't stand to admit defeat on something that was always beyond their power to control.

 

[Dashell]

Well I might have felt shunned at some point in time and said that, I don't quite remember. Like I said it's just putting translations out there and having people disagree right away because it doesn't say what they want.

I don't feel shunned now though... like I said it's just hard being a translator because you can become so unreliable over a simple sentence or something

so for now I'll let Hito and Tres take the heat

Well it's a response to those saying TLS only looks at the FTOIL page and not the whole context and Ryu's article "ends the LTD and screw everyone who disagrees." But it will be edited. And note what I wrote is not a full defense, it's just a simple reply.

It kind of is though, I mean does any other article get nearly as much attention?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Well speaking of which, it is the article that gets the most attention. Mainly because of the flashy title and Ted Koppel.

People are claiming it misleads neutrals, but then type "Cloti" in google and you'll most find "Why Cloti isn't canon" type "Cloti evidence" you'll mostly see anti Cloti essays in another site more than actual pro-Cloti essays. I say any person who believes what an article title says right away without checking it is not misled, he just didn't do any thinking. It's not the article's writer's problem. But any person who judges a whole site because of one article has the same problem.

TLS has a total of two Cloti articles, and one Clerith article among probably a hundred non-shipping ones. And then this site is being compared like the Cloti equivalent of the CA forums which forum rules pretty much sums up the purpose of the site.

 

[Morana]

^

People are claiming it misleads neutrals, but then type "Cloti" in google and you'll most find "Why Cloti isn't canon" type "Cloti evidence" you'll mostly see anti Cloti essays in another site more than actual pro-Cloti essays. I say any person who believes what an article title says right away without checking it is not misled, he just didn't do any thinking. It's not the article's writer's problem. But any person who judges a whole site because of one article has the same problem.

Internet is full of Anti Cloti essays but when one article appears that doesn't hold the mere thought of CloTi ludicrous, it is a blasphemy.

 

[Vendel]

Internet is full of Anti Cloti essays but when one article appears that doesn't hold the mere thought of CloTi ludicrous, it is a blasphemy.

Yeah, there is a reason there are not many "pro-cloti essays". Because the source material speaks for itself. And then the guidebooks come along and pile on top of that.

It doesn't require dissecting everything and then putting that through various filters before we can divine the true meaning.

I mean c'mon people disproving cloti saying both are valid takes a lot of work.

 

[Morana]

Yeah, there is a reason there are not many "pro-cloti essays". Because the source material speaks for itself. And then the guidebooks come along and pile on top of that.

It doesn't require dissecting everything and then putting that through various filters before we can divine the true meaning.

I mean c'mon people disproving cloti saying both are valid takes a lot of work.

But it is confusing. When I first started browsing the web for CloTi or the triangle, I found a bunch of sites denouncing even the slightest possibility that Cloud loves Tifa (why CloTi isn't canon, why Tifa isn't worthy of Cloud's affection etc.) And it was confusing because I couldn't connect that with the FFVII game.
When I found TLS forums, I was happy but not because 'yay i found pro- cloti site'. I was happy because I noticed that people here can put aside their shipping preferences (if they have one) and be objective.
Seriously, I didn't see a single post that bashes Aerith or Tifa. I know people here can be sarcastic but they usually have facts to support their arguments.

 

[I Am Not Me]

It's because TLS love both Aerith and Tifa. You don't bash characters you love, so there is none of that here. You know, being an FF7 general site, it really wouldn't help if we endorsed bashing of major characters of the franchise. The site's cred is at stake.

We love them both so much that we even ship them together.

(This site is actually Clack and Aerti biased. )

 

[Morana]

(This site is actually Clack and Aerti biased. )

Yeah, I noticed that.

 

[Sikozu]

I keep seeing people complaining about how horrible TLS Clotis are, and one of the things used as an example was a Hitler video...?

Does anyone know what this is talking about? I've never heard anything about it.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Wut?

 

[Sikozu]

^Exactly. I have no idea what they mean at all. I think they are saying we made a Hitler video or something.

I'm getting sick of seeing TLS Clotis getting bashed on, and it's treated like the people here are worse because "TLS is supposed to be neutral".

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well it's a response to those saying TLS only looks at the FTOIL page and not the whole context and Ryu's article "ends the LTD and screw everyone who disagrees." But it will be edited. And note what I wrote is not a full defense, it's just a simple reply.

What? That's not what my article said at all! It said the LTD has been over, it's just been lingering in a ditch for a few years, here is its mercy killing.
And Ted Koppel.

^

Well speaking of which, it is the article that gets the most attention. Mainly because of the flashy title and Ted Koppel.

It's really all about the Koppel.

People are claiming it misleads neutrals, but then type "Cloti" in google and you'll most find "Why Cloti isn't canon" type "Cloti evidence" you'll mostly see anti Cloti essays in another site more than actual pro-Cloti essays. I say any person who believes what an article title says right away without checking it is not misled, he just didn't do any thinking. It's not the article's writer's problem. But any person who judges a whole site because of one article has the same problem.

Point of fact: The article does not mislead neutrals. To mislead them, it would have to do something other than state the facts and offer a viewpoint clearly expressed as such. That's all the article does. It states the facts of the page, and draws a conclusion from them. It doesn't worry itself about 'which version' or 'variations mentioned thirty pages away' or 'one who loves' or any other thing, even though such things are considered. It concerns itself with the idea that on a page about displays of romantic affection, displays of romantic affection will be discussed.
That gives us Cloud's dates- very obviously about PDAs from Cloud's date to Cloud- and the Highwind, which is said to be mutual. This is no logic leap, it requires no rocket science.
Square Enix said that Cloud and Tifa shared mutual feelings- of romance, as per the page topic- under the highwind. That is therefore what happened that evening. Simple. Clean. Parsimonious.
And, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who would try and deny it, a QED and feather in the cap for the 'Cloud romantically loves Tifa' theory.

You'll note nowhere in that spiel did any mention or knocking down of Aerith need to be made. That's because Cloud loving or not loving Aerith is largely irrelevant to the central question of the 'CLTT.'

On the contrary, it seems most CLATs are quite fixated on Cloud not loving Tifa because or so he can love Aerith. I find this telling in so so many ways.

TLS has a total of two Cloti articles, and one Clerith article among probably a hundred non-shipping ones. And then this site is being compared like the Cloti equivalent of the CA forums which forum rules pretty much sums up the purpose of the site.

We have more articles about me making fun of SE made cartoons than we do about the LTD.
We actually have fifteen times the number of articles relating to me and other people making fun of FF Cartoons that have NOTHING to do with FF7 than we do relating to the LTD. And I point that out because I am a big bad Cloti boogeyman to some people.
I think we have more FFXIII articles than LTD ones, actually.
We are so not the Cloti mouthpiece site unless you squint really hard and ignore literally everything else.

But it is confusing. When I first started browsing the web for CloTi or the triangle, I found a bunch of sites denouncing even the slightest possibility that Cloud loves Tifa (why CloTi isn't canon, why Tifa isn't worthy of Cloud's affection etc.) And it was confusing because I couldn't connect that with the FFVII game.
When I found TLS forums, I was happy but not because 'yay i found pro- cloti site'. I was happy because I noticed that people here can put aside their shipping preferences (if they have one) and be objective.
Seriously, I didn't see a single post that bashes Aerith or Tifa. I know people here can be sarcastic but they usually have facts to support their arguments.

Well, we have some, but we tend to bash everyone in FFVII, and most usually very tongue in cheek. Drug Dealer Aerith, for example, is one of my favorite 'anti-Aerith' jokes, but it's so facetious and over the top I wonder how anyone takes it seriously.

That's the real reason Sephiroth killed her BTW. He hadn't gotten his fix from her in five years and he had a bad case of withdrawl, so he killed her for not getting him the smack he desperately desperately needed.

ADDENDUM: The only thing that comes to mind when you say Hitler video is that there was a Meme going around where a WWII film had a scene where Hitler is told about how badly the Germans are losing the war and he rants and raves about how it can't be true and that everyone else absolutely failed him, and EVERYONE made parody videos using that. Someone did make one Mocking Pink Hell- and yes, I'm going back to calling it that because I really do not care- beliefs, but it was hardly a TLS endorsed thing.

 

[Splintered]

These are the TLS posts

Spoiler

Clear up to the TLS post- Part 2
Yes I do believe that the most recent Clerith who debated there was treated like crap. All of the TLS quotes that I copied and pasted were from that time and a few days after she left. So yeah, I do. And then somebody saying ” I wish that we could have another dumb Clerith to come along so we can prove how wrong and dumb they are ” just seals the deal. Plus it got like a ton of thankyou’s meaning that they agreed if what they have said.
No I’m not getting any information from second-hand. I go into the TLS and read everything and form a opinion.
Ryu called the forums Pink- Hell and nothing has happened to him. Nobody has questioned him. So don’t lie. Plus again, it got tons of thankyou’s.
I’ve said before that I usually try and put my foot down if Cloti’s are being bashed on the Clerith forums.
I’ve just said to a Clerith there that a bashing Tifa Lockhart and Cloti bashing thread is not going to help matters.
I can’t judge the Northern Crater place because I just came into the LTD place last year. So I am a LTD newbie. ^^’; Well…online anyways xD
So I do believe that the TLS forums have been mean of recent and I don’t think that the C X A forums have been all rainbows and butterflies either. However I am trying to stop Cloti bashing there if it occurs, but try and be friendly and nice to them as well.
It’s not easy feeling like one Forum has recently picked on people, but the same forum you know people at haven’t been innocent either. And yeah, nobody is perfect and I do apologize if I have hurt or been nasty towards anybody with this. We are all human. c:
I made this because I was angry and upset with TLS to be honest and have been upset with them since the Hitler video. They usually say that it’s old, but nobody has removed it or apologized and said it was the past and we’re sorry and we’ve moved on.
So yeah I do believe that Blankbeat the most recent Clerith to debate there was treated rudely. VERY rudely.
About the articles, the Cleriths are mad because they believe that it’s showing a bunch of lies. They don’t mean to target the person that wrote it, just what the person is saying. Cloti is canon. How would you feel if they wrote something saying that Clerith was canon and here’s why. You would feel upset and angry, of course. And you’ll believe that they were spreading lies. That’s how they feel.
TV Tropes recently had something about Cloti being canon on their website, they tried to get TV Tropes to change it; however TV Tropes just named them crazy shippers and laughed in their face. Because of the article, that they believe in false they believe that the whole net thinks that Cloti is canon. It’s frustrating and annoying for them. That’s why they don’t like the ” Cloti is canon “ articles. Nothing to do with who wrote them. If you feel like somebody put tons of hard work into something, then great. c; They most likely did. But it’s not who wrote it- it’s what they’re saying that’s the issue here.

This is a clear up to the ” TLS is like the Fox News of the Internet post “.
I did not mean to rank on the TLS forums; but to get the message across that they are meant to be a neutral site, but they treat Cleriths there like shit.
Not everybody at the TLS is bad and the TLS forums is not a awful place. However some just ruin it, by treating Cleriths so badly.
I do not believe that Cloti is canon. I think that it has a huge chance of being official with the recent information Danseru has brought out, but there’s still a chance that it’s not.
I do not think that the Cloud x Aerith Forums suck. I just said that I find the Tifa bashing and Cloti bashing there annoying and doesn’t help matters. And I try and respect their rules.
If I feel biased towards the Cloud x Aerith Forums it’s because I haven’t seen them treat a Cloti badly unless they were harmed by them first. Example Vendel trolling them on YouTube.
Quex and another Cloti have been debating with them recently over there, I didn’t see any Cloti bullying. BUT, I do think that the ” Cloti’s are so wrong ” and ” Tifa is a bad character ” is annoying and does offended people. I was a strong Cloti there for a while and was treated fairly. Same with Quex and I believe his username is Tres ? Fairly too.
TLS has been calling Cleriths names like Pink Hell, Pink Nazis, and made a video of Adolf Hitler being upset that ” Cloti was made canon “. Because you know…. all Clerith’s are nazis.
I was meant to say that I’m angry with the TLS forums and think that they are so biased that they are like Fox News, but some things on the C X A forums make me upset too.
And bashing should stop on both sides, very much TLS.
Not calling TLS or C X A bad forums or a bad website. Just I’m upset with the LTD bashing and mostly TLS since it’s stronger there.
Hope that cleared things up.

I've been here a decent while but I've never seen the Hitler-Clerith thing. That said I do remember a member once complaining that the CxA joked about Clerith nazis genociding Clotis and making anti-Ryu posts.


But honestly, this CxA versus TLS LTD is kind of annoying mostly because the majority of discussions don't involve LTD... I haven't really seen anyone bash anyone specifically for a long while. That's ancient history though.

That said I do remember Blankbeat, but that was a hell of awhile ago, and no less mean than seeing Vendel and Aaron go at it in the political section.

It's also why I stay away from LTD stuff on tumblr, all of this bad blood, and for the most part one side isn't paying attention until it explodes elsewhere.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, that was me and Celes Chere/Tiff who made the Hitler video (I think Vendel had suggested someone should do so; I then wrote one, and Tiff did the video editing) using that famous Hitler clip from "Der Untergang" -- and, dammit, I still say it was funny.

That was almost three years ago now. Wow.

 

[Dashell]

Quex and another Cloti have been debating with them recently over there, I didn’t see any Cloti bullying. BUT, I do think that the ” Cloti’s are so wrong ” and ” Tifa is a bad character ” is annoying and does offended people. I was a strong Cloti there for a while and was treated fairly. Same with Quex and I believe his username is Tres ? Fairly too.

Lol, why does my name keep coming up in these things? XD

Would you people stop using me as an example... whoever you are?

That said I do remember a member once complaining that the CxA joked about Clerith nazis genociding Clotis and making anti-Ryu posts.

Well who hasn't done that?

That was almost three years ago now. Wow.

You know I honestly thought all the drama around this would die down shortly after that video was posted... boy was I off.

 

[Master Bates]

The scars of the past are so deep they cannot be healed with time.



EDIT (because I don't want to double post):

It kills me a little inside when people judge TLS and say it's a Cloti forum/Cloti bias/whatever then proceed telling bullshit like TLS treats Cleriths like crap, when really I'll bet my nonexistent millions that they haven't ventured OUTSIDE the LTD thread.

LTD Thread =/= TLS, ffs

Try to look around the forum you call TLS for once and don't just stick to the LTD thread and you'll find that LOLOLOL this little precious LTD of yours is but a fraction of a whole. Your shipping bias is IRRELEVANT.

 

[eleamaya]

Well, simple to me, compare 2-3 Clotis being rude of Cleriths in this non-shipping FF forum personally to the whole CxA did for all anti-Cloti threads they have is bad equivalent.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, I call their forums Pink Hell. I also call them Pinkers. Who, apart from the Clerith themselves, calls them Pink Nazis? It was them who started the Pink Jackboots thing AFAIK.

And yes, we do mock a lot of their ideas here. Because those ideas are dumb. And I will do the same to any young earther, flat earther, hollow earther, birther, moon hoaxer, truther, realian, or any number of other nutty conspiracies. Hell, I'll do the same to people who thing ST's Federation could beat SW's empire in a fight- and if you think that reference is too nerdy, please, look at who you are and what you're reading.

But you know what? I'm not just gonna do it behind your backs. I'll tell you straight up your ideas are nonsense, because your claims are worthless without evidence and logic to back them up, and I don't care if saying that upsets you.

But as for bashing Cleriths in specific, I leave that to very specific assholes who have done absolutely shitty things to me or my friends, or have displayed themselves to be so intellectually dishonest as to be worthy of contempt.

But yeah, you know why TV tropes says C/T is canon? Because that's what all the evidence, when analyzed in a common sense way, says. They live together, raise kids together, see each other as mom and dad of that family, they are important to each other. They have romantic feelings for each other. Tifa is somone's beloved, and unless you're trying desperately to avoid that, the most obvious person for that to refer to is Cloud, the man with whom she has a future. The man with whom she belongs, and her the woman with whom he belongs.
Look Tumblr Clerith. You got into this last year. That's all well and good. But that's like voting next year for this year's election. We know the results already, and no amount of rationalization or skewed analysis is really going to change that.