The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Splintered]

This isn't me being an asshole, this is my advice: play the game. Don't watch a walkthrough, play the game.

Not because it'll help you defend Clerith better, but because it's damn fun. It's one of the great games of the era and you are missing so much from not playing, Cid, exploring the world, the music, it's all part of the experience. Sure you know Aerith's death is sad, but wait until you spend hours of grinding- making her a comfortable part of the team and putting a lot of investment in her, only to lose her forever.

 

[Master Bates]

Honestly though, if I haven't played the game before watching ACC, I would possibly ship Clerith because of this one reason: Aerith is pretty in the movie. Not saying Tifa isn't but Aerith is just plain beautifully rendered. And then I'd ship Tifa with Rufus because they're perfect in my eyes.

It's not impossible to see Clerith in AC. In fact, I can kinda see where these people are coming from. There were parts of the movie that's so ambiguous and misleading to nonplayers that I'm kinda glad there's ACC to clear them up somehow. I have a friend who haven't played the game and when he watched AC, he thought Aerith was Cloud's dead lover. LOL yeah true story.

@CR: Yes, like everyone here says, you should play the game. It's fun leveling up your characters, embarrassing Cloud (esp. Wall Market sequence), kicking asses (random battles and battle arena ftw), experimenting with your materias, listening to awesome soundtracks, and mini-games (YAY! GOLD SAUCER!). And you'd understand the story better.

 

[Celes Chere]

Yeah, just watching AC I could see how people could make a romantic connection with Aerith. It's the same with FFVII. For me though, anything after FFVII, Cloti was just plain obvious. xD I thought the debate was actually fun//had a point when FFVII was released because I felt that yeah, Clerith could be canon but here's why I think it's Cloti etc.

 

[ClerithRaven]

LOL.

It would probably help you a lot if you did play it the game to at least know what we were talking about. I mean right now you've only heard hearsay arguments about it (like I'm assuming someone told you that Tifa constantly acted peevish when Aerith and Cloud were together, but this is simply not the case), but playing it will give you your own point of view. If you can't play it, you could probably at least

A. Read the script
B. Watch a walkthough online

Neither of these completely substitute playing the game, but it would certainly help.

Like I said, I did try. With the walkthrough, I mean. The script? Couldn't find a good one online. Well, that was over four years ago since I first tried looking for it.

With Tifa acting peevish, there was a part of her profile in the Ultimania that commented on something like that. So I used it here. And I'm not the type of person who just relies on hearsay. I do study things and research. So yeah, I already have my point of view.

Now this fascinates me. What exactly did you see in AC that made you think "couple" when it comes to Cloud and Aerith? Cloud has more time with Tifa in one scene than Aerith has time in the movie period. And for most of her screen time in the movie Zack is right there with her.

Err. So to you, more running time with a person gives those two people more "couple" vibes? That's not the case for everyone, especially for me. Even if Tifa gets the 1 hour running time with Cloud and Aerith only gets 3 minutes, if the content of those encounters can't be seen as romantic, then that message won't some through to the audience. With C/T encounters in AC, what I saw was friendship. Heck, I could say that Tifa kept running after Cloud while the latter kept on evading. But with Aerith, there's so much longing. At least, that's how AC affected me.

OK, ClerithRaven, break time here: Do something. It doesn't matter what, read the script, watch a walkthrough (preferable), but you HAVE to do something in order for your arguments to have any value in this debate. This isn't a berating from my part, it's an honest advice. Judging just from ACC is simply the -if not wrong- then at least mislead mindset.

It's like you argue in favour of Sessomaru/Kagome by having seen just the fanarts (not the best example, but I couldn't think of anything else!)

I told you. I already did. When I found out that there was a love triangle, I searched for reasons why. Heck, I even tried reading Cloti essays. But it didn't click with me, with what I've seen. I watched walkthroughs, and it was hard for me to even find a clear one at that.

Uhm, that's not a very good example for my case. At least, my "starter" for loving C/A was something that wasn't fanmade.

This isn't me being an asshole, this is my advice: play the game. Don't watch a walkthrough, play the game.

Not because it'll help you defend Clerith better, but because it's damn fun. It's one of the great games of the era and you are missing so much from not playing, Cid, exploring the world, the music, it's all part of the experience. Sure you know Aerith's death is sad, but wait until you spend hours of grinding- making her a comfortable part of the team and putting a lot of investment in her, only to lose her forever.

I don't really think you are an asshole. But, I can't play the game in my current circumstances.

And I've often heard how fun it was-it was epic! It's really obvious since years after its release, it's still famous. But I don't think I'm really missing out on anything by not playing the game. If I'm meant to play it, then I will. But that won't be happening anytime soon. Here's the thing, as we've seen, she's not really lost forever. Yeah, she can't be played anymore, but she was still very present.

In fact, most people I know always tend to Cloti and Zerith the instant they watch the movie because it's so stressed there.

How was Zerith stressed there? Zack one appearance, and he's not even lovey dovey with Aerith there. And for the voices we hear, they were teasing Cloud. No romace, not even a flirt from Aerith to Zack.

Honestly though, if I haven't played the game before watching ACC, I would possibly ship Clerith because of this one reason: Aerith is pretty in the movie. Not saying Tifa isn't but Aerith is just plain beautifully rendered. And then I'd ship Tifa with Rufus because they're perfect in my eyes.

It's not impossible to see Clerith in AC. In fact, I can kinda see where these people are coming from. There were parts of the movie that's so ambiguous and misleading to nonplayers that I'm kinda glad there's ACC to clear them up somehow. I have a friend who haven't played the game and when he watched AC, he thought Aerith was Cloud's dead lover. LOL yeah true story.

@CR: Yes, like everyone here says, you should play the game. It's fun leveling up your characters, embarrassing Cloud (esp. Wall Market sequence), kicking asses (random battles and battle arena ftw), experimenting with your materias, listening to awesome soundtracks, and mini-games (YAY! GOLD SAUCER!). And you'd understand the story better.

LOL. No offense, but I really prefer Aerith. I don't hate Tifa, but I don't really like her as well. Daw... Not Rufus! Reno's my pick. They'll be a comedic couple. :p

Uhm, there are more stories like that, I assure you. My cousin thought the same thing, and it was after watching ACC. So I don't really see how you say that ACC cleared things up about AC-Clerith issues... Hmm...

Yep. I've heard many times how fun it could be. My classmate was playing it back when we were in high school. But, I didn't have the time to play.

Uhm... Can I say something here? Please don't misunderstand: I don't ship or love Clerith just because of AC. I said that AC started my love for the couple. But after learning that there was a love triangle, and a debate on it, I did my own research.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Point of order- I would argue you haven't done your own research. You've relied upon the writings of others and not the experience of the OG and other related compilation materials. What research has been done hasn't really been YOURS.

Also

Here's the thing, as we've seen, she's not really lost forever. Yeah, she can't be played anymore, but she was still very present.

In a two year period after her demise, she makes an appearance all of twice, both during major world events. A year later, during another such event, an event where she'd be even MORE concerned with showing up and saving the planet, she doesn't.

Also, no, Vendel was not saying he pairs couples because of the amount of running time they have. He was saying Aerith is in the entire movie for less time than Cloud and Tifa spend in a single scene. There's really nothing of substance in the movie from which to conclude a romance. And it's interesting you say there was longing, when Cloud says 'I want forgiveness.' What you've mistaken for longing is guilt.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Part of this is in reply to posts CR made on the front page.

It would be better. Posts can be longer. Yay!

No, you have said the word belief on numerous occasions in these replies.
"But, C/T is your belief is it not?"
"What he had here is a conclusion towards his beliefs according to what he has interpreted based on what was presented. Is it not?"
And you said "No, I said it was enough for me to believe in Clerith." about your one evidence, actually.
"The thing in a debate is that you criticize the argument. Not the belief itself."

You've said your arguments are from facts. But you've also talked about a belief in C/A and this being about belief, without really providing any facts for your argument.

Uhm. I don't get it. Just because I said 'belief' many times,
it automatically states that I am arguing based on JUST my belief? Have I worded myself in the wrong way? I guess I did.
First, I said that the statement was enough for me to believe in Cloud and Aerith. And it came from CoL:W.
Was I not clear in saying that, yes I believe in C/A because I saw facts for it and use it in my arguments?

In the immediate term, I've been at least loosely referencing mine. In the long term, the evidence I use is always with a look at the big picture. To use just this page as an example, I take a look at the header, both its title and its explanation. I take a look at the surrounding discussion, about FF3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10. Take note of what is said. I take note of the smaller heading in the corner, not it discusses non romantic love, in contrast to the romantic love discussed in the main header. I realize that nearly all the other places are discussing big romantic confession of display scenes, The context would suggest that both FF7 examples would relate to this. I see the date- which I know to involve such attempts at romance on an unwitting and unaware Cloud, and the Highwind scene, which in one version contains the Risque Line 'words aren't the only way, etc.' So, by the context, both are discussing romance. Now, from another quote in the U10, I know that Cloud is Oblivious to both Aerith and Tifa's advances through the date sequence at least, and from yet another that he becomes aware of Tifa's feelings in the lifestream when she becomes aware of his. Looking at the text for both I see the date sequence is emphasizing the choice of the matter, discussing the dating mini-game. Looking at the text of the Highwind, it's emphasizing the mutuality of the feelings, that they are confirmed, and confirmed without words.
I have lots of facts. I never examine them in isolation. Down that road lies madness and misinterpretation. Like a forensic scientist, I use the facts, as many facts as I can, what each fact says about itself and about other facts, to form a coherent picture.

Can we talk about our arguments in general Ryu? Not just about that article? I was aiming at that in my comment.

But these are the only feelings that would be mentioned on the page about love. You're special pleading.

Yeah, how does that differ from what I said? Because of the page title which says "love", the feelings being talked about is 'love'. Did I say otherwise? I just said that those may not be the only feelings they were feeling (if it was in another page).
What is special pleading?

Please see above as to why that is quite untrue. Further, trying to argue that that which is discussed in that one paragraph is entirely anathema to the purpose of the rest of the page is just mind bogglingly absurd.

I'm getting a nosebleed from your words. Seriously, I should be holding a dictionary when I'm talking to you. :p

*checks the meaning of 'anathema'*

Here it is!

a·nath·e·maNoun/əˈnaTHəmə/
1. Something or someone that one vehemently dislikes.
2. A formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine.

So page title + canon couples discussions = romantic discussion for C/T as well. Yes, I get it now Ryu.

Again with the religious connection.. Hmm..

There are no words for the lack of self reflection you have displayed in uttering these words in this context.
There are no words for the chutzpah of doing so immediately after attempting to argue that the high highwind scene cannot be the official version because a deviation is listed. In the same train of thought as arguing that the feelings in the scene being discussed could have been something other than romantic love. Seriously. Having said this is the very height of self-defeat and audacity in a single package.
You realize, I desperately hope, that "having it there, among the pictures of ‘canon couples’ [shows it has merit]" is exactly what you're arguing AGAINST for the Highwind entry, don't you?
In any case, the text on this very page talks about the fact that your actions determine who goes on the date. That alone isn't enough to say we don't can't say which is canon, but it is enough to say that which date in particular happens isn't overly important to the subject of romance in FF7.
It's everything else, with all the conflicting evidence, that makes us conclude that we can't tell which of the dates happened.
I've seen someone try and use collectible cards to prove that Aerith's date happened, but accepting those cards means the high highwind date also happens, since it uses 'words aren't' as one of Tifa's noteworthy quotes.

I don't really get how you get the self-defeat and audacity part. Comes from years of debating? Well, it's not really the same case for me.
I said it wasn't the official version? I think I said it's not 'canon'. Man, I'm such a scatterbrain. And short-term memory loss too I guess. LOL.
I'm not saying it against the HW entry. I'm saying it in defense of the date scene.
Uhm, just a thought, if SE did intend Cloud and Tifa as canon, it would have been easy to make the date a default with Tifa, but it's with Aerith. Why? Well, maybe because she did promise to go out with him. And it's kind of where she tries to communicate her feelings to Cloud.
Collectible cards? Oooh. I want one!

No, we did not. Because the important scenes pages still exist. I simply had their page numbers mislabeled. The High Highwind scene is STILL one of the four most important scenes of Final Fantasy 7- and I did provide that page for you. My numbering mistake didn't negate the whole rest of the evidence listed, or the fact that even p232 only mentions the deviation. It gives attention in the main column and in the sidebar mentioning the deviation to the high version, not the low. I was wrong on a particular. But that particular has been corrected and incorporated, since I actually, y'know, sat down and read the page provided. I do that. It's a terrible habit.

I was saying that we already cleared the part where you got your files mixed up. But I'm not contesting the part where the HW scene is one of the most notable scenes in FF7.
I think I was talking about the deviation because I was defending my point that referencing it with the photo means that SE did want people to remember that there is one, where no confirmation of feelings happened.

Due to the consistent, preponderant evidence, the attention given to the scene in interviews and in this sourcebook, and the fact that events which only happen in the high version have been repeatedly confirmed as occuring, on that I conclude that the High Highwind happened.
This is the same reason we conclude that Vincent was on the Sister Ray. The very same reason we conclude he and Yuffie joined the party. Nothing says 'YES, THEY DID' in big bold neon letters, but the consequences of those actions have been confirmed, so they must have happened. Given that an outcome has happened, and that the outcome can only be achieved in a certain way, we thus know the certain way also must have happened.

Maybe because its a scene that's gotten the most interest from gamers who are Cloti? You know, a marketing ploy? Just a thought though.
I can't really say something on Vincen'ts part. As all of you know, I haven't played the game. So what consequences happened?

But that one reason is still all you have given for why you see a romance between Cloud and Aerith OR them being a canon couple. All the stuff I cited? All of that is about Cloud and Tifa's romance, AND it's about them being canon.

Err. I think I already gave some in my last post. Please check?

That's no more belief than 'believing' that my car will start is my point. And how it differs is that ours involves context. Yours, as you have JUST DEMONSTRATED, must actively deny the context. That's a pretty goddamn major difference.

Oh my gosh. Explaining one thing to you takes forever. LOL. Again. Our arguments are also based on 'context'. We see the facts, we study it, analyze its connection, then we use it to support our side. How can you get the "actively deny the context" part?

Alright. What leads you to believe those feelings are love, and not guilt, when it is Cloud's guilt which plagues him through FF7 and what he seeks Aerith out to be rid of? What makes you describe Cloud as 'heartbroken' over Aerith's death, as opposed to Zack's? If Cloud wants to meet Aerith again, why does he instead do exactly not that and decide to begin his new life with Tifa and move in with her?

Further, Cloud and Tifa both want to meet Aerith, according to the UO. They both talk about this as they are hanging from a cliff edge, their very survival unlikely. Cloud has just realized that death isn't the end, that there's something beyond, and he tells Tifa that he thinks it's possible to meet people in the lifestream (The Japanese is literally 'think can meet' with no specifying pronouns.) to which Tifa is the one who responds 'let's meet.' It is Tifa who actually expresses desire to meet Aerith. Cloud merely expresses realization that one can.

And further furthermore, they do. They meet Aerith. At the end of FF7. There's no more need to go looking. Until Cloud's guilt begins building. And then Aerith's either incapable or unwilling to help him til AC.

Seriously, CR, play the damn game. You're bringing a knife to a gun fight without playing the game.

Uhm. That statement concerned Cloud's undying feelings which were different from Aerith's comrades. His guilt is not really an undying feeling, so it wasn't guilt. Heartbroken? His lines. Then Tifa mentions Cloud's heart being torn apart once again (meaning it has been torn apart before in regards to her death). Maybe he knows he can't rush going to the "Promised Land". And he did say he thinks he can meet her there, which was an answer from the Planet (meaning that he was asking for it :p). That wasn't gonna stop him from living on. And we do see why Cloud moves in with Tifa. They had built the place together, I think Barret helped too? Ugh. I seriously need to read CoT again. )

Not just people, Aerith herself. And we're talking about the English dialogue. That's how it was translated so that's how it must have meant in Japanese as well. And Tifa's line? Idk. To me, it was her inviting herself to go meet the certain her with Cloud.

How do they meet Aerith at the end of FF7? For the love of all that is , how?

Just because I haven't played the 'damn' game doesn't mean that my argument cannot be taken seriously or without merit.

Go me.

Yes, go you.

No, actually. Your defense boils down to 'it's optional, therefore we have no canon version' WRT the Highwind scene. This is patently nonsense if you apply it to any other situation.
And before we turn that around to discuss the date, I'd love to be able to say which date or dates were actually canon. But that's an inconsistent shitpile of contradictions, unlike most other scenes with multiple versions focused on.

What I meant was the part where he said that my belief is already my fact. No. My belief is SUPPORTED by my fact. Big difference, I should say.

Which does not answer my question of would it be unusual for Cloud to have done so. You're evading the question. I know what Cloud did. I'm asking would it be unusual? Who gives a shit if he 'would.' I am asking, quite bluntly, consider if he 'did.'

Did I really? Oh well, my bad bro. To answer your question, which I can't even quite remember now, it would sound romantic. Talking about a person's smile, laughter.. and all that. Yes, it would. The lines contained heavy emotion.

Twice now, you've evaded the question and added additional terms. WITHOUT PREVIOUS ROMANTIC ASSUMPTIONS, which is what I am getting at, so Clackers are completely a red herring, would those lines, being said about a deceased Zack, lead YOU, yes, YOU to arrive at the idea there was a romance between the two.
Do not discuss what he did elsehwere. Do not discuss what the crackshippers would do. Discuss THE SCENARIO PRESENTED.

CHILL OUT BRO! Sheesh. You're too caught up in this debate.
I got the answer up there, yo. :p

You're not even getting half the stick. No one's accused you of subhumanity, yet. Even the responses you're getting are generally short and to the point rather than a gish gallop.

Err... you have a pretty deep scar there?

Remember, this is about whether Cloud was nodding out of the habit of nodding in the affirmative, or nodding because he's 'reassure [himself] that what [he] was saying was true' as you say you do. Either way, he's affirming that his heart called out to Tifa. Regardless of which way this winds up, the salient point is agreed upon.

If he was nodding to reassure himself, then there is that slight doubt. Maybe because of the sudden realizations from his memories. Poor Cloud. His head might have been aching.

Quex has gotten most of these. I see you have replied to them piece by piece. I do hope you consider them in the grander context.

Let me get back to you on that. My head's now spinning from your long post. :p

Because Hamlet was not shagging Yorick, but still mentioned positive qualities about the man he missed, like the lips which he had kissed so many times he knew not how oft. Like I said, your argument was that remembering things you'll miss about the deceased must mean romance. I cited shakespeare for a deliberate undercutting of that argument, and to add in some humor. Gravedigger scene's funny, man.

When does he say those lines? Immediately after the death, and with the cause of death right behind him? If not, then the situation differs slightly and the context of the scene changes with it as well.

Yes he did. Because Sephiroth was trying to break Cloud and turn him into a puppet. Killing Aerith was something Sephiroth needed done. Breaking Cloud's will and making him a tool is something Sephiroth WANTED done.

But this was regarding Cloud's reactions to Aerith's death, you know, the eyes, etc... How could controlling Cloud after Aerith was already dead contribute to what he wanted?

Cloud's not an obedient vegetable. What Sephypoo wanted had not come to fruition. What he needed done had been done. What he wanted hadn't.

But it seems to me that what he wanted has become his obsession. LOLZ.
So again, how does controlling Cloud right after Aerith dies and while he holds her dead body, contribute to what he wanted?

Final Fantasy Tactics re-release for the PSP with a superior translation.

Ooooh.

Ryu. I'm tired now and it's late here. So the rest would be for tomorrow ok? Please refrain from responding to this one. Please wait for me to actually finish? Pretty please? I'm begging here, man.

LOL.

EDIT:

This is the one I use for when I need to do research. http://members.fortunecity.com/sephkatana/ff7stuff/ff7sc.html

Thanks. I'll check on that this weekend.

I thought leaving together and Zack's pride and honor inside Aerith's sanctuary was clear enough. It seems not.
And I'm really not going to discuss further about how the Cloti and Zerith was stressed with you, no offense really, but without having played the game and completely ignoring or avoiding the facts provided to you so far, I don't think the discussion will go anywhere

Uhm, Zack left before Aerith did. Technically, they didn't leave *together*. And, you're talking about li'l ol' Buster Sword right? How does is say that Aerith and Zack can still be a "couple" or a "pair"? Whoever moved the Buster there, most probably Cloud, may have done that as a one-for-two memorial for both Aerith and Zack. How does that say that it's a Zerith fact? The person who put Buster there was a fan of Zerith? Nah. Doesn't make sense.

And, I was saying that in reference to AC/ACC. If I had really played the game, knowing that Aerith was once with Zack, who was considered to be her first love, then watched AC/C, I would still say the same. I didn't see Aerith looking at Zack when they left. She was just walking straight to the light, no aversions to Zack whatsoever. Heck, Zack didn't even wait for Aerith to leave first before he did. That doesn't look like a 'romantic' action for me. And, still, for the Buster being in Aerith's Church, I've said it above.

And when did you *really really* pay attention to Zerith in the game? The *most used* instances in debates where Zack was mentioned in the game (with relation to Aerith) was when Aerith was telling Cloud he was her first love. Then we get AC and CC, a PREquel game which happened *before* the FF7 game itself.

EDIT:

She had complicated feelings that a woman had for her true friend who was also the cause of Cloud's guilt. At all times, it must be remembered that Tifa's true feelings towards Aerith are love, friendship, and appreciation. If they were jealousy, these feelings would still be complicated after Aerith's intervention, as that would have done nothing to change the feelings. But if they are related to the guilt she unwittingly caused, her intervention, helping to remove that guilt, would uncomplicate the feelings and allow her to express them clearly, as she does after Aerith's intervention.

[FFVII] Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

[AC] Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.

Yeah, they weren't feelings of jealousy. Just "peevish feelings" or feelings that could make a friend have a "complex expression" on her face.
Btw, cherishing a person does not automatically mean that there will never be times when you'll feel emotions other than love/friendship.

Cloud HAD to do the remembering. It could only count if it was a Memory Cloud remembered that Tifa could verify.

How did Tifa verify those again? Ah yes, She verified it from her point of view of the memories. Cloud remembered his part, Tifa confirmed it from what she remembered too, well, it seemed like they were both confirming then.

In those 14 years, we have, AGAIN, seen TEN MINUTES of their childhood. You would argue that they only ever spent ten minutes out of 14 years together. Now THAT is an amazing assumption.

That is exactly why I say that other interactions that could have happened are now assumptions. It's because... the well scene started the "childhood" friendship. Now, Tifa would either cut short hanging out with her old friends to be able to keep seeing Cloud, who wasn't much of a socialite. Count the time between winter-spring, that would be like... 3 months at most? Then out of those 3 months, we'd have to consider the days where Tifa met with her friends, then with Cloud. Or should we just assume that Cloud became friends with Tifa's friends all together?

No, what Cloud was fighting for was the very personal memory.

"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."

Now, Cloud does refer to 'an important Memory' elsewhere in the game and that's his memory of being in Tifa's room. In fact, nearly every mention of memory or memories in the last two discs refers to Cloud's persona or true past. Ironically, the only time Aerith is mentioned in relation to memory, Cloud's telling everyone 'we have to let go of her memory.'

So tell me then, why was being in Tifa's room an important memory for Cloud?
And no, it wasn't to let go of Aerith's memory itself.

Aerith ... She was smiling until the end. We've got to do something or that smile will freeze. Although she should have returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck ... We've got to let go of Aerith's memory.

This says that Aerith was stuck and couldn't return to the lifestream. So they were referring to freeing Aerith from whatever was stopping her. Not her memory.

Which is a completely and utterly irrelevant tangent.

I was just saying.

No, in the japanese, it's asking Cloud if he/ things will be okay. In the english, it's asking Cloud if he can see things'll be okay. In both, the tone contains 'without us' because of the context of the dead departing for the white void.

Uhm, no. When you ask a person, "You see?" It's either reinforcing what you're saying or slapping the obvious fact right in their face. It's like saying, "I told you so," in a softer tone. And you keep saying that "things will be all right" when in the English translation she says it in the present tense: "Everything's all right". Why do you do that?

For example..

"He didn't hold her hand. Let's watch it again."

*watches again*

"You see? They didn't hold hands."

It's short yet effective. :p

Not yet done, Ryu.

EDIT:

... It isn't? Based on what?

For starters, it wasn't even a goodbye. I've been saying again and again that it was for reassurance.

That was BEFORE this scene.What indicates she can STILL come back? If she can, why did she not do so a year later when she would have been very useful?

Firstly, she can because she once returned to the lifestream, but was still able to come back to help Cloud out.
Second, which was released first, AC or CoT?

Uh, if you mean this in ANY remotely literal sense, you are going to have to very heavily substantiate it.

What I said was:

Zack's presence did not need Aerith's at that time. Cloud waking up in the water was like him being born again. And I do remember somewhere that those who have just been and will be in the Lifestream can see those who are presently there. That could be the reason why Zack was seen by Cloud. And can't the man visit a friend when he finally can?.

Read the paragraph as it is. You were talking about Aerith bringing Zack with her at the end of AC/C. So I said that seeing Zack there did not need Aerith. It's actually in the paragraph, if you really read through it.

Where are you getting this line of thinking from, exactly? Is this another essay, because I have the sneaking suspicion that it is.

No, it was from your PM debate with FF_Goddess.

Why not indeed. But more importantly, why DOESN'T Aerith?

Err, Aerith does show herself to Cloud. I don't get the point of your question?

Living Cetra are special. But what makes a Cetra special while alive CANNOT translate to the lifestream unless it is directly related to their mind, which is the only thing that goes to the lifestream, which means anyone could figure it out and be special too, which is entirely my point. Zack can be special too.

So just because a Cetra dies, that Cetra is not special anymore, unlike when he/she was still alive? Whoooo. Is that a fact or your assumption? Haven't heard that yet.

Err, what? No... I'm not saying THAT at all. What I am saying was that the presence of the wolf meant NO place could be the promised land, because even that which would have made Cloud happy- his family- was feeding the perpetuating loop. What it's all about is Cloud forgiving himself.

Oh, my bad then. I think I do remember you saying that it was his promised land because his friends and family were there. Hmm... Oh well.
I've forgotten where this is going. To sum it all up, we both agree that:
1. The Church is his Promised Land.
2. He forgave himself, making his guilt-wolf vanish, and ultimately making him truly happy at last

But he wasn't happy there.

I said he *could* have been happy there. You know, somehow felt at peace? He didn't really leave the place, so he wasn't bothered there.
Now... show me how you say that he wasn't happy there. You seem so sure.

And your alternate 'interpretation' is without merit since Cloud is decidedly not happy even when Aerith is around. He IS happy when the guiltwolf- the metaphysical symbol of his psychological burden- vanishes. Not before.

Decidedly not happy? How so? And you keep saying before that he is happy with his family, but now you're saying that he is not happy before his guilt wolf vanishes. Be somewhat more clear about the time when he is happy, please?

So, I now have to prove a negative to you?

Spoiler: ...

If you think Cloud was happy at the church, PROVE IT.

No, you have to prove your side that he wasn't happy at the Church.
As for my side, I've already stated it above.

The U10. That we host on the front page. That I have already quoted before.

Oh that one. That's why it seemed familiar to see you say that again. My bad, bro.

Over Midgar. A few minutes after making that statement to Tifa. A few hours before telling Tifa he figured he could successfully start a new life because he had Tifa by his side this time in a different way than she had been by his side previously. This was said while blushing.

That was us seeing Aerith. Not Cloud and Tifa. How do you get the idea that Cloud and Tifa saw Aerith at that time? Too much irrelevant information. The first two sentences were sufficient enough.

So, because you think Cloud was looking for Aerith despite seeing her immediately after mentioning that he (and Tifa, whom he was speaking to) could see Aerith in the promised land, and then spending two years doing anything but search for Aerith, that the church is his promised land because he sees Aerith in it?

Again, how did you come to the conclusion that Cloud and Tifa saw Aerith that time? Doing anything but search for Aerith? He was visiting the Church without Tifa's knowledge in CoT. What was his purpose for doing that then if he wasn't searching for Aerith?

But the feelings expressed under the Highwind can't be of love because it doesn't explicitly say in that very sentence that they're of love.
Words fail me to describe the double standard I see forming.

How did this get in here again? I'm sorry. I fail to see where I connected the HW scene to this part of our debate.

Yes, Cloud planted those flowers. There were none there at the beginning. There are none anywhere else around. Cloud had to have planted them there. He plants flowers- the symbol of Aerith and her church, while moving the symbol of Zack to the church. He is linking their memories and uniting them even in death. Uniting the two in death as they were united in life.
Seems a bit odd to bring your lover's ex into your special place with her.

You do know that there's some way that flowers grow in new places right? It's called pollenation, where pollens can transfer to another place for them to grow in. I'm not that sure though. We took that up in Grade 3. LOL. And does Cloud even have the skill or talent, or even a single clue, how to grow flowers?
First off, Aerith herself told Cloud that what she and Zack had was a thing of the past. And I don't really remember anywhere in CC where Zack mentioned Aerith to Cloud. So, why would Cloud even think of uniting them in death, unless he had in mind his friendship with them both?

Which leads to Magic lifestream teleporting HOW...?
And it cannot be spoken figuratively because...?

I'll break it down this way.
1. No one knew that the Church had become a place of healing except for Cloud and Aerith (Kadaj being an exception because he wasn't paying attention to Cloud getting healed).
2. It was implied that Aerith instructed them to wait in the Church.
3. Cloud is healed (by Aerith) in the Lifestream. And it seems that his physical body was there, with all the cuts and bruises.
4. Cloud wakes up with the kids holding him, not the adults/his friends who had the strength to carry him there, as you suggest.

So how can his friends or anyone for that matter carry him into the water by Church? And, why do you say that maybe he was carried there without the help of magic/teleportation?

Sephiroth failed to break Cloud- his true goal- by killing Aerith. He ONLY succeeded by using Tifa and Cloud's trust in her to plant the seed of doubt into Cloud to crumble his resistance. And EVEN AFTER THIS, Cloud says

"Especially you, Tifa. I'm really sorry. You've been good to me...... I don't know what to say...
I never lived up to being 'Cloud'. Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'."

Even after losing his very faith in himself, his foremost thoughts are for Tifa, and the hope that she'll get to meet the real Cloud, since he couldn't be it.

I think he did manage to break Cloud by killing Aerith. It made him see himself as a failure, because he failed to protect Aerith.

Btw, did Cloud say this after he handed over the Black Materia to Sephiroth? I want to be familiar with the scene before I give my argument.

Btw, I read something interesting today. And it makes sense.
Sephiroth wanted the Planet destroyed by Meteor. He knows that Aerith is a Cetra who can foil his plans. He tries to make Cloud kill off Aerith, instead of doing it himself. When that failed, he did it himself. BUT, why did he wait for Cloud to be present in front of Aerith? Why didn't he just went and killed her off? By waiting, Aerith managed to summon Holy, defeating Sephiroth's Meteor.
~Many thanks to Shiva's website. It was an interesting read.

We see him, over the course of two years, a total of ten minutes, and then one three day period in which he has no time to take a dump much less switch suits.

It's because FF7 doesn't show much of reality of everyday living.

Because we are expected to think of these narrative constructs as real people by the writer and that entails expecting human like behavior out of them.

It wouldn't take much time creating a scene where let's say, Reno had just come out of a bathroom (it would have been very funny!) then he would talk to Rude. Instead, we see him lying lazily on a couch.
Well, all right. They have a bathroom somewhere.

Very much so.

HOW? How is it materially different and how is this different relevant to the discussion?

I forgot this now... Remind me? Sorry.

The cure was Great Gospel. She had it on Disc 1.

Did she know that she could use it to cure Geostigma? For all we know, she might have just realized it while Cloud was fighting off Kadaj.
Which makes me think... Maybe she badly wanted to help Cloud fight off Kadaj, that her will made it possible to cast Great Gospel in the living world.
The power of will.

COLW occurs over the course of 2 years and her last entry occurs shortly before the film. Her thoughts and opinions have very little time to change in from that point.

I'll get back to you on this because I haven't finished reading COLW yet.

Did you not say you agreed with the assessment?

Yes, I agree. How do you define warrant in your statement? Sorry, it kind of means a lot to me.

But you're trying to say that by using a camping roll he's using while seeking forgiveness. Should we also assume Cloud doesn't wipe because he has no toilet paper there?

I'm saying he uses what he has, and does not really focus on the luxuries much.

How is that relevant to the fact that once denzel showed up Cloud's relationship with the family, including Tifa, improved considerably because he made a greater effort to spend time with all of them?
Unless you're saying Cloud thought Aerith was telling him to spend more time with Tifa and the rest.

No, I think Cloud thought Aerith sent Denzel to him to atone for his sins, just like how Tifa thought of it. So, with that in mind, he spends more time at home now that Denzel was part of it. And it made Marlene and Tifa happy.

No. No it does not. 'Is that it' is pressing him for an answer. It is a rhetorical device. And it worked.

Granted that you're correct, it's aim is still to get an answer to confirm if what she has been thinking of was true.

No. He resumes fighting after Tifa coaxes his ass off the bed. Cloud's off to fight before Aerith appears. Cloud thinks back to the conversation after this, but the conversation happened first. Nonlinear storytelling. Natch.

I watched it again. Tifa 'coaxes his ass off the bed' and makes him choose between a memory or them. The scene then changes where Aerith coaxes him to forgive himself. Then it's back to the forest. It's either Tifa's part comes first followed by Aerith's then Cloud leaves, and he remembers the whole thing while talking with Vincent; Or Tifa's part comes first, Cloud leaves, and during his conversation with Vincent, after he remembered the earlier convo, Aerith speaks to him.

So, in the first scenario, he fights because of both women. In the second, he fights because Tifa coaxes him too. I assume you take the second one?

PLAY THE GAME. It's been a suggestion before. It is now no longer a suggestion. If you wish to continue discussing the narrative of a visual story, a visual interactive story, especially to state with any authority what you think the canon is or isn't, you go experience that story.
I am providing you with information, but that is no substitute for playing the game. And I have my limits.
And you are incorrect. Tifa does not act peevishly there or even most of the time. The one time she acts peevish is when she's ignored by Aerith in ShinRa tower. The rest of the time she and Aerith are on best of terms, often picking on Cloud together.

Then give me a copy plus a PS1. If you can't, give me at least somewhere to download an emulator or something. oh oh, and if you could, ask my professors to stop giving us loads of paperwork. I could play the game by then. If you can't do anything from what I've said, don't give the a suggestion-no,a command which is by far impossible at this point.
Yes, you do provide information. Which I countercheck. So I don't believe that there would be anything that will go terribly wrong with this debate.

This is why I said that she acted peevishly when she realized that Cloud and Aerith had a special bond.

[FFVII] Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

Cloud thought only he needed to make amends for his failures. Learning he wasn't in it alone made him happy.

Hence the smile when Tifa said that Denzel was brought to their home?

... You really just don't want to recognize the invaluable contribution of Tifa and the others, don't you. I point out that multiple living people helped in addition to the dead, and your response is 'The dead helped too'
I wasn't denying that. But you completely glossed over the aid of the living, and still barely recognize them.

How do you get that? I was emphasizing that even though they were dead, they still managed to help Cloud. What part of "also helped" did you not understand? Did I say that it was their help which was greatest, or that it's the help of the dead that matters most?

No... because you see, the original line that has not needed to make concessions to the terrible gods of ADR is asking if Things will be alright. Not asserting it.

Oh for the love of all that is translated, shall we stick to originals? Fine. The original plan was that only Aerith, Cloud and Barret were the main characters. There, the LTD is solved.

I kidd. LOL.

Anyway... why is it that the English can be interpreted in a different way than the Japanese? For a translator's job, that's quite a failure.

AND? Are you saying they do have too much strain? If so, SUPPORT IT. If not? IRRELEVANT.

I say this with regards to CoT. Why I say this? First off, Tifa already thought how their relationship would be affected when Marlene made Cloud part of the family. Second, Tifa seems engrossed in wondering/confirming if they really are a family because Cloud doesn't act much like it, until Denzel came. Third, Cloud is too secretive, making Tifa guess most of the time. Lastly, Cloud is too bent on feeling guilty that he doesn't see how much it affects his family.

Right, I'll be over here, in the area of the forum where we don't make unnecessary character jabs to make invalid points.

A character jab? Seriously, you've been in so many harsh LTD's that you think one is the opinion of the other. I merely stated what I got from what I read. And that wasn't even the revised version. She didn't say, "Cloud, next time, can I go with you?" That is asking.

The fuck? I have no issues with Cait. He's an unreliable fucking fortuneteller. That's his GIMMICK.

Sorry. But it seems that you do.

How does that make them important? And sulking? Play the game. WATCH the scenes. You're missing out on the audio and the visual aspects of the game.

Important because he managed to diss someone who was purposefully aiming for him to be reduced to nothing. Change important to notable then. Can you understand it now? Oh right. Sulking isn't the right word. He continued being emotional. Now is that acceptable? And I did watch the scenes. Well, those which were repeatedly used in the debate at least.

No. BUT, y'know who else's heart was torn when visiting Aerith's grave?
"But the pain she felt when she visited the place tore her heart apart."
AeTi. You have just argued for AeTi.
Context. Know it. Love it. Use it well.

You left out the rest of the paragraph.

Tifa heard a voice asking if she was all right. She didn’t know if it was Aerith’s voice or her own. She wept. Right after Sephiroth took Aerith’ life, she hadn’t grieved at all. She had been sad, but she channeled her sadness into anger and hatred for the enemy. But the pain she felt when she visited the place tore her heart apart.

So her pain resulted from not grieving for the loss of Aerith. She had "channeled her sadness into anger and hatred" that she must have kept the emotion inside. So when she was finally able to weep, it was so much that her heart felt like being torn apart.

That does not address that there was NO NEED to make those sequels about ZACK and emphasize his RELATIONSHIP with Aerith. DoC didn't have that. Before Crisis didn't have that. They also reminded people of 7. But CC did have that. And you're trying to argue that they emphasized Zack and Aerith's relationship purely to remind people of FF7, when they didn't have to do it at all.

Not the marketing ploy then. Oh oh oh! Did I forget to mention that it was to fill in gaps? I guess I did. And CC is a PREquel. Something that happened before the game. Changes happened. And, being a gamer, if I had played the game, and there was a backstory that could have been told, I would seriously like one to be released. Zack's story was a pretty solid visualization of past events that led up to the game.

No. The focus is on Cloud/Tifa. Cloud and Tifa get the shared keyword. They get the future together. They belong together.

We were talking about how the date affects the LTD, from what I remember. So the debate is about Aerith/Cloud/Tifa.

Yes, you do downplay and ignore Zack. Often.

Ignore is such a strong word. Where did I ignore Zack?

Which doesn't prevent you from aggregating them, adressing their similar elements together and dissimilar elements apart.

To which I may give a reply that could not be addressed to them. I have a system with debates. And it makes it easier, although time-consuming.

No it isn't. It's not a feat. It's normal. Natural. No big thing. Maybe it is to SEPHIROTH, but why should it be to Cloud?

I was saying that in terms of Sephiroth's aim. So how does it differ from what you've just said?

It means SE does not give a singular, categorical shit about Maiden.

Director Tetsuya Nomura approached Studio BentStuff about reissuing the book, and Benny Matsuyama was
commissioned to write a short story told from Aerith's perspective, entitled Hoshi wo Meguru Miko, which
literally translates as The Holy Maiden who Travels the Planet. Despite the fact that the tale itself was not
written by the scenario writer Kazushige Nojima, it was written under the watchful gaze of Square Enix.
(Source: http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/2005/12/feature/01-4.php)

So SE should be suing the one who wrote this because it says that SE commissioned Benny to write MotP and even claimed that it was supervised by SE. Yeah. It's wrong to have SE's name there because SE doesn't "give a singular, categorical shit about Maiden".

Ten Dollars. PSN. GO.

Our currency is not dollars. And how does that solve my problem with getting the time to play?

Because she realized from what he said and how he acted that he wasn't himself.
This is said IN GAME. So not only have you not even PLAYED THE GAME, you haven't even READ THE SCRIPT.

So the game said: [Tifa] realized from what [Cloud] said and how he acted that he wasn't himself even before the game began.
Before the game began = before you had control over Cloud's actions?

All you have given us is assumptions.

I was talking about how much time Cloud and Tifa could've spent together after the well/water tower scene.

Even Maiden does not say 'Aerith helped Tifa recontruct Cloud' Is says she Guided Tifa TO Cloud and watched from the sidelines because she was unable to communicate with Cloud as SHE HERSELF makes quite a bit of note about in a previous chapter.

But that does not negate the fact that without Aerith's help, Tifa couldn't have done squat to help Cloud.

Yes. I say so. And the creators say so. AND THE GAME SAYS SO. AND THE NOVELLAS SAY SO.
AND YOU SHOULD GET UP AND ACTUALLY DO SOME RESEARCH.

Uhm. Are you high on caffeine or something? Chill. No need for capitalizations.
I'm not even contesting that it's official. Yes, what happens in the HW scene in official. But when you say that because it appears several times throughout the books, it's canon, that's not stated is it?

I like referencing Shakespeare and Star Wars too. Discussing THOSE with someone who'd never read or watched either would STILL be frustrating.

Dude, the least you could do then is to inspire that someone to try so you wouldn't have to be frustrated so much.

And then summarily ignored in every work to come out since.
Back in the day, there were official comic books released by Star Wars. Guess how many of them are still canon? Not many. None have been officially removed. They've all been quietly made irrelevant by other material. Same with Maiden. No one gives enough of a crap to try and keep up with it.
The immediate next release- AND Quex, do not give me shit on this, you know full well the point I'm making here- made an entire chapter of the novella impossible.
And no, MOTP was NOT supervised by SE. Benny has said it wasn't. Hell, it's not even in the Index of the UO. It's listed after the index. It's really not credited by SE AT ALL. It's not really credited in the UO.

Oh. This one is new. Appearing in the UO is not a credit in itself? And are you telling me that SE allowed MotP to be published with the UO without even checking its contents?

CR, You have not played FF7.

What HAVE you played, read, or watched, that is relevant to FF7 and thus this discussion? Answer honestly, and completely.

DOC. Well, a bit of CC, but that's it. I had become too focused on my studies that gaming was not a luxury.

FINALLY DONE!

 

[Anastar]

Okay, this is my first post in this thread. I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been in many LTD debates before - so I doubt there's anything new in this one that I haven't heard before.

You all know me as Anastar from the CxA forum. I didn't want anyone to think I was "hiding" under another name.

Personally, my view of the LTD is that it's open to interpretation. I do not think there's a "canon" couple. To me, Clerith makes a helluva lot more sense than Cloti does, primarily because I think Cloud's love for Aerith is obvious in FFVII as well as in AC/ACC. I did not get the impression that Cloud loved Tifa during the game. I only thought he had a crush on her as a child. And to me, a childhood crush from afar does not mean that he still loves her as an adult. I had many a crush on different boys as a child, and I don't still love those guys - so that means nothing, IMO.

The main thing to me is - Cloti's shouldn't go around saying that "Cloti is canon" as though it's fact when SE has never said any such thing. It's not on the "For the One I Love" page. The "For the One I Love" page says that Cloud and Tifa's feelings match, but then there's a page number at the top of the Highwind picture for reference:

If you turn to page 232, it says this:


Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania


Why was that omitted from the article here: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/


Conveniently leaving that out seems pretty dishonest to me, especially since it blows your whole claim that Cloti is canon. The same article says this:


First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads


Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’

So your article says that no one version of the Date is official because it's under player cntrol. However, the same book says that the Highwind scene is under player control. That's what having "2 versions" means. That's what it means when it says, "the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection."[

I know why you *THINK* the Highwind scene has a canon version, but the fact is that SE has never said that the Highwind scene has a canon version. Hate to tell you, but that's nothing but your own opinion.

On the other hand, SE has said that the CloudxAerith date is easier to get.

This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in the Gold Saucer.[/b] ~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

I think if SE is going to say which Date is easier to get, they'd say if the Cloti version of the Highwind scene is canon. But they've never said such a thing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This is still going on? Wow. Is it not time to move on? Fucking hell.

Nothing I really want to address with regard to the "debate," but I do want to respond to some things Anastar has said since I'm responsible for the content of the article she's talking about (Ryu wrote and posted it, but the translation was mine), in which case she's really talking more about my credibility than the topic of fictional characters' love lives.

The main thing to me is - Cloti's shouldn't go around saying that "Cloti is canon" as though it's fact when SE has never said any such thing. It's not on the "For the One I Love" page. The "For the One I Love" page says that Cloud and Tifa's feelings match, but then there's a page number at the top of the Highwind picture for reference:

If you turn to page 232, it says this:


Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania


Why was that omitted from the article here: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/


Conveniently leaving that out seems pretty dishonest to me, especially since it blows your whole claim that Cloti is canon.

It wasn't conveniently left out. It wasn't mentioned because it's not on the page in question.

In any case, you're ignoring that the caption for every one of those scenes under the romantic love header on that page -- not just the scene with Tifa and Cloud -- refers to another page elsewhere in the book (specifically, the scenes' places in their respective games story recaps). Click here for the translation of the entire page. Was I supposed to provide a translation for every one of them?

Also, I've never made a secret of the content of pg. 232. I was the first to translate it (see here), and did so way back when I first translated the "For the One I Love" page. The day after, in fact.

I've also freely made reference to it on other occasions (example), and have included translation of it in my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ for nearly two years now.

Your article says that no one version of the Date is official because it's under player cntrol.

While Ryu did word it that way, I would disagree (and so would he) that the matter being under player control makes it have no canon outcome. Many things in the game, such as recruiting Vincent and Yuffie, are under player control, but still have canon outcomes.

For another example, the scene mentioned with Terra on the same page ("Also, in 'FFVI,' there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called 'love'; when talking about 'love,' this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out") was an optional scene, and, thus, under the player's control. It's still treated as something that definitely happened, though, both on that page and in FFVI's story summary within the book (pg. 186).

For that matter, even leaving Shadow behind on the Floating Continent in FFVI is in the sidebar of FFVI's story summary under a "Deviation" heading (pg. 183) called "The Life and Death of Shadow," yet recruiting him back into the Returners at the Coliseum later is mentioned in the main body of the story recap (pg. 187), and he's included in the ending screens and description -- things that can't be done if he's left on the Floating Continent. Re-recruiting Relm in Jidoor is also mentioned in the main body of the story summary, while finding her in the Veldt cave is mentioned under the same kind of "Deviation" heading, and is identified as a consequence of the player choosing to leave Shadow behind.

There are some scenes in the games that have a "Deviation" sidebar yet still have canon outcomes that are mentioned in the main body of the story summaries. The Highwind scene is one of them.

For the record:

I know why you *THINK* the Highwind scene has a canon version, but the fact is that SE has never said that the Highwind scene has a canon version. Hate to tell you, but that's nothing but your own opinion.

Pg. 232 speaks of the high affection version of the Highwind scene as being what took place anyway: "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

Not to mention that the beginning of FFVII's story summary (pg. 199) details said version of the scene as one of its four most important scenes.

But you know all this, and this exchange is just the beginnings of another turn in a merry-go-round of futility. Which I will in a moment gracefully (or not; I leave that to your interpretation lol) bow out of for good.

I think if SE is going to say which Date is easier to get, they'd say if the Cloti version of the Highwind scene is canon. But they've never said such a thing.

Well, I suppose they've not yet said it 777 times (I'm guessing that's the requisite number of times), but it's darn close:

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud's profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."


(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa's profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "


(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa's profile)
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."


(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."


(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa's profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."


(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII's story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."


(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 394; "For the One I Love" page)
「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."


(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]


(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]



But, hey, I'm still waiting for them to convince me that Vincent joined the party. I call bullshit on that jank.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Thank you Tres, for eloquently explaining a goodly portion of what I'd been trying to say in here of late. And providing much more direct references to such. This sort of thing is just one of the reasons we miss ya around here bro.

 

[Dashell]

I'm not going to get heavily involved in this, but I just want to address one thing you said Anastar.

Why was that omitted from the article here: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adven...e-debate-over/


Conveniently leaving that out seems pretty dishonest to me, especially since it blows your whole claim that Cloti is canon.

I never really thought TLS was hiding this information. I mean I know why you're annoyed that it's not mentioned, because you feel it disproves the article, but pretty much anyone who has any bit of FFVII knowledge already knows there's two versions. The UO, the U10, Dismantled, ... everything ever printed with an FFVII playback in it, has said this. You're accusing TLS of hiding information that everybody knows. It would be like if they wrote an article about Yuffie and someone tried to say that they hid information about her hair color. And as he said, why would he mention that in the article when it's not on the page he translated. If your response to the article is, "But there's two highwind scenes." wouldn't it be that regardless of what page 232 says, or even if there is a page 232?


And I think you might misunderstand the article's point (at least the point I got from it) The article isn't saying, "There's only one version of the Highwind scene and it's romantic so HA HA!" it's saying, "Look at the distinction between what is written under Cloud and Tifa and what is written under Cloud and Aerith. One is a straightforward 'BAM! These two share romantic feelings!' and one is 'This can turn out one of 4 ways.' " There's a huge difference there. While I've always argued that Aerith's date is canon, and that there is some romance involved, you can't deny how Square went about describing each event here. In fact, EVERYONE on the page except for Terra is about the same way. "X and Y get romantically involved here." the only exception on that page is the date picture which says nothing of the sort.

Now does this mean the scene isn't romantic? No, it does not. But I think Square is trying to tell us something here. Can you honestly tell me, pictures or not that, "Cloud and Tifa's share romantic feelings" has the same weight as, "This can turn out romantically one of four ways."


Now what you did with your post is prove that there's two versions of the Highwind scene... again, we know this. What you need to do, instead of saying "There's two versions." is prove that two people who have, moments prior to the Highwind scene,

Spoiler: have said to reveal that they have romantic feelings for one another

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless. (page 25)

, for some reason had an apathetic/candid night together, followed up by the two deciding to live together, and so on. Something there just doesn't seem to flow quite right, but I'm curious to see your side of the story. Now if you can read the FFVII story to follow that, then that's fine. But again, instead of just saying there's two versions, prove to me the low one could have happened.

 

[Celes Chere]

But, hey, I'm still waiting for them to convince me that Vincent joined the party. I call bullshit on that jank.

Preach.

 

[Dashell]

Ironically, the only time Aerith is mentioned in relation to memory, Cloud's telling everyone 'we have to let go of her memory.'

Just to be sure, you know he's not saying to forget about her right?

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, I'm having intermittent sleep tonight, so I'll respond to this without full responses, though those are coming later.

CR, I will wait for you to finish to respond. However, I wonder why you simply did not wait to post the entire reply.

Anastar, if I remember correctly, you hold that Cloud and Aerith can and do have a continuing romantic relationship after her death.
This is an amazingly extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence. Instead of continuing to attack the case for C/T which is, less face it, a bit tired and repetitive nowadays, how about you give your case for your version of C/A, instead? I mean, even if C/T wasn't canon, C/A could ALSO be not canon if it does not stand on its own merits.

So why not you make a competent, comprehensive case for Clerith here, and we all pick it apart to see how it holds up.

Also, while I will get to the rest of your reply in time, I can say that yes, I don't think being mentioned as having four versions renders the idea of a canon date sequence impossible, despite the slapdash wording of the article. I do think that the inconsistent portrayal of which dates occurred makes it difficult for us to tell which one did, and that Square and Square Enix both don't care much about which one- if not all- did. I've seen -IIRC- Cali try and use a collectible card set to prove that Aerith's date was canon, but the wording of these cards is contradicted by other sources (and Merch like cards and bags is pretty shit evidence to begin with.). Plus the cards also- again- canonize the High Highwind scene if we take them as authoritative, and we can't have that, now can we?
Like Tres said, deviation does not equal 'purely optional' or acanon, and, well, someone better make Vincent Official, otherwise his game will make no sense at all.
Tres kindly provided a series of quotes which state that feelings being shared is THE course of events under the highwind, even ignoring this page. If that only happens in one version, that version happens. I might get into this in more detail in the full reply.

Also, if it's REALLY bugging you, I can go and clarify the position about the date entry in two words. But I'm not about to change the majority of a year old article because you think it's jumping the gun.

As to your sig, people still argue that the grand canyon was not formed over millions of years of erosion, but in a single catastrophic event. Is the debate over its history still ongoing because people still argue against the erosion theory, or is it effectively over?

 

[Dashell]

Tres kindly provided a series of quotes which state that feelings being shared is THE course of events under the highwind, even ignoring this page. If that only happens in one version, that version happens. I might get into this in more detail in the full reply.

Just to point it out, I'm fairly certain Anastar believes feelings were shared in both versions, but only in the High Affection version were feelings of romance shared. In the Low Affection version, we don't know what the feelings were. That's the common response I see to that anyway. And to be fair, I don't think it was ever said "NO FEELINGS ARE SHARED IN THE LOW VERSION!" just that it was apathetic, which shows little feeling, but not none.

 

[Fighter]

My theory is that Vincent and Yuffie do not exist in the Compilation. All you morons who think you saw them on screen neglect to mention that these characters ARE OPTIONAL.

They are there, and yet they are not, AT THE SAME TIME. Isn't that a cool paradox?

It is some real innovative narrative technique when two polar opposite conflicting paths in such a character defining moment lead to the identical outcome. Someone needs a medal.

 

[Vendel]

Err. So to you, more running time with a person gives those two people more "couple" vibes? That's not the case for everyone, especially for me. Even if Tifa gets the 1 hour running time with Cloud and Aerith only gets 3 minutes, if the content of those encounters can't be seen as romantic, then that message won't some through to the audience. With C/T encounters in AC, what I saw was friendship. Heck, I could say that Tifa kept running after Cloud while the latter kept on evading. But with Aerith, there's so much longing. At least, that's how AC affected me.

Looks like Ryu hit most of the major points here.

But let me ask you something else. How do you get "friendship" from the C/T scenes? What about Cloud finding her knocked out in the church. Or her chewing him out (in a bedroom) because he wouldn't go rescue their children. Or Cloud telling Denzel (and Tifa) that he is coming back home. Or Tifa handing Denzel off to Cloud in the end screaming "friendship"?

When you saw the family photo or when Cloud thinks of his family how did that spell "friends" to you?

Uhm, Zack left before Aerith did. Technically, they didn't leave *together*.

So in your efforts to remove the presence of Zack you now say he didn't leave "together" with Aerith? Because he may have been...what, a half step ahead of her?

Are you that threatened by the idea of Z/A having any connection post CC?

And, you're talking about li'l ol' Buster Sword right? How does is say that Aerith and Zack can still be a "couple" or a "pair"?

No one said it did. But if they, two dead people can't be a pair, then how can C/A?

But the sword in the church and the flowers on Zack's grave paint a rather vivid picture of what Cloud's thoughts on the Z/A relationship is/was.

So tell me then, why was being in Tifa's room an important memory for Cloud?

Well in that particular instance it was his first time in her room.

 

[Master Bates]

You know, it kinda boggles my mind how saying "Aerith is important to Cloud", "Cloud wanting her forgiveness", "She is engraved in Cloud's heart", "Cloud stayed in her church", and other things that aren't necessarily inherently romantic is romantic and enough to prove C/A is canon yet when SE says "Cloud and Tifa shares romantic feelings for each other, confirms these feelings to match without words" at least eight different times, not even counting the several mentions of "they live together", "they form a family together", "they belong together", "Cloud saying he can finally succeed because he has Tifa in a different way than before while he blushes", and other blatant statements regarding their relationship is suddenly not romantic and their relationship status still contested and constantly downplayed instead of providing support on the other side.

 

[Fighter]

So tell me then, why was being in Tifa's room an important memory for Cloud?

Because he always wanted to be included in her circle and this was one of the rare occasions that he was. You should play the game.

 

[heroine22]

Hi everyone, I finally joined the forum.

To answer Discord/Quexinos:

Yes, you're right. I haven't played the game.

And why I loved Cloud and Aerith? The first time I saw them was in AC. They were the couple that appealed to me. I didn't even know there was a love triangle until I discovered the online world. LOL. And don't take it to mean that I haven't tried seeing the CloTi side. I did, but I just didn't feel that they had a connection.

Frankly, even if I did play the game, I don't think my love for Clerith will change. There was only one scene which seemed to make CloTi stand out, the HW scene. And obviously, I'm don't see it as something romantic.

FOR THE LOVE OF CLOUD. Seriously??!

Wow, CR, yet you acted like some kind of Know-It-All Goddess on the front page...


FYI, I also watched FFVIIAC first before playing the game. I did know that there was some kind of love triangle in FFVII and that their names were Aerith-Cloud-Tifa, and that Aerith died in the middle of the game, and that was it. I had not really had anyone in favor. Hell, I didn't even know what was going on and what was happening or why.

Then I watched FFVIIAC and I knew why people had been telling me that there was a love triangle. Because it did seem like a love triangle. In the movie.

Yes, in AC Aerith's presence was always at important times, but at the time I thought that was normal for a character that had been declared "dead", because if not, the story wouldn't be that "dramatic".

Because after all, for me, Aerith's presences carried totally no romance related presented.

(okay now's the ONLY time I won't relate anything to aaalll thooose huge amounts of facts that have been stated by SE, AND ONLY SE. This was purely my first thoughts. A "reader's response" is the term).

When I watched AC at the very first time, I immediately recognized Cloud's and Tifa's feelings to each other.

First, when Tifa found out that Cloud's been in the church, Tifa's expression was more like relieved that they'd "found" him. Now when she knew that Cloud's been having the stigma, then she began to worry, moreover when she knew that Cloud was planning to give up.

And then, apparently when they finally met and were having the conversation, Cloud DID plan to give up and die, and he was speechless when Tifa pointed that out. --> that was the first point for the know-nothing me. The fact that Tifa really understood Cloud that she knew exactly what he was thinking.

Next was the scene when Cloud found Tifa lying unconscious. If you see his eyes, they pretty much told you that he was worried to death and was quite upset to the one who did that to Tifa.

Back to when they were quarreling, Cloud immediately deny when Tifa said "hontou no kazoku ja nai kara, dame ka" and said that the reason was him thinking that he wouldn't be able to save anyone.

And then after Marlene said, "doushite atashitachi no hanashi wa kiite kurenai no?" and Vincent asked "kore wa tatakai no hanashi ka?" it got him him to conversation that ended with Tifa asking, "atashitachi...omoide ni maketa no?" and he kind of heard Aerith's saying "ne, mou yurushite agetara", then he decided to try the "forgiving" --> that got me thinking whether he started to realize that he'd been doing a big mistake, which worried his "family" and friends so much that it got them(particularly Marlene and Tifa) thinking he doesn't care about them anymore.

And finally, Cloud did go for the children after having the conversation with Tifa.

I didn't get why everyone said Cloud was with Aerith because every time she appeared, I really thought that they were all like what a mother would do for her beloved son.

"you came. even though you're about to break, hm. that's a good sign."
(I forgot the Japanese for this one..) and "dare ni?"

"zuru zuru. zuru zuru. ne, mou yurushite agetara."

"I never blamed you. not once" (I also forgot this)

-the one when everyone helped Cloud defeating Bahamut Sin-

-the one healing Cloud's stigma and told him to go-

-finally where Cloud could finally really see Aerith and Zack in the end of the movie she said, "mou daijoubu da ne."

*pardon my mistyping or mispelling. I'm actually quite illiterate at Japanese. Due to watching too many doramas, my skills are only limited at listening and speaking.

All of them reminded me of a mother who was soothing her son, telling him that what he was feeling sorry about was actually wasn't really his fault. She once got tired of her son being gloomy all the time and told him to just forgive himself. The other times, encouraging her son to keep facing forward, and the very last (and this was the clearest for me at the time), reminded me of my own experience seeing mothers saying, "I told you so."
LOL.

Well, I can't remember the rest because only those memories above still stood out unaffected by the facts. Those were purely my first assumption as a total newbie in the world of FFVII, a reader's response from me.

I saw Cloud and Tifa as the couple because they: worried about each other, quarreling with each other, Tifa(and Marlene) got disappointed with Cloud then felt like they had no hope, then Cloud decided to try to forgive himself and move on, but in the end they just understand each other.

Without any hugging scene (like Squall-Rinoa) or kissing scene (like Tidus-Yuna), for me those things above were the ones that defined what a couple really was like in the real life.

But don't worry. Then I PLAYED the game. THAT was when I began to wonder why the hell people think there was a love triangle.

(again a reader's response)
Cloud was in Zack's memory. He was not really him. So I only counted his telling us, "maybe I could see her there." for his feeling to Aerith, and I also thought that he wished to see her to say he was sorry for not being able to protect her.

The date scene was totally optional, it could be changed easily. I could even make a rectangle love story by debating that Yuffie was on the scene if the date really that mattered.

Cloud had been having his eyes on Tifa since he was a child. He wanted to be recognized by her. He was also ashamed of himself and couldn't face Tifa when he didn't manage to really become a SOLDIER like he had told her.

Tifa was the one who helped Cloud regained his true self.

Tifa was the one who took care of Cloud when he was treated in Mideel's clinic.

The HW scene (the conversation in both versions were not really what an "ordinary friend" would share.)

And (again) the fact that Cloud was only honest to Tifa and Tifa really understand Cloud.


OKAY. enough for interpretations.


CR, if you claim yourself a true FFVII fan, I don't see any reason why you would not play the game. Reading the walkthrough or even the script wouldn't even pay for the feel when you actually play the game, follow the story with your own eyes, step by step, and reveal every little secret inside.

There's nothing compared to actually playing the game. any game for that matter. period.

So until you actually do know everything, I suggest you drop the know-it-all Goddess act, because it really pisses me off when someone act like a God when s/he doesn't even know how to plant a seed, let alone create the whole universe.

*pardon my language, but I am so very pissed off right now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, this is my first post in this thread. I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been in many LTD debates before - so I doubt there's anything new in this one that I haven't heard before.

You all know me as Anastar from the CxA forum. I didn't want anyone to think I was "hiding" under another name.

Personally, my view of the LTD is that it's open to interpretation. I do not think there's a "canon" couple. To me, Clerith makes a helluva lot more sense than Cloti does, primarily because I think Cloud's love for Aerith is obvious in FFVII as well as in AC/ACC.

As I asked in the short response, actually supporting this materially would be nice.

I did not get the impression that Cloud loved Tifa during the game. I only thought he had a crush on her as a child. And to me, a childhood crush from afar does not mean that he still loves her as an adult. I had many a crush on different boys as a child, and I don't still love those guys - so that means nothing, IMO.

But it's not merely a childhood crush. In many ways, it's a defining part of Cloud. The promise definitely is.
And indeed, Cloud doesn't have a whole hell of a lot of effective time to go from the Nibelheim massacre- where he still has his crush on Tifa- to being Faux!Cloud of disc 1.
It's also worth noting that Tifa has an equally long period of time apart from Cloud, and a much more active life in that period- by default, since she's not stuck in a tube- but she hasn't lost her crush.
Regardless, the crush is still active. We learn in the lifestream sequence that Cloud still holds his memories of Tifa as tender (And yes, this is in the fondly held sense, before we go down that road.), he'll be 'so pleased' to learn Tifa was crushing on him as he is crushing on her. Their hearts call out to each other in the lifestream. Cloud only ever opened his heart to Tifa. And so on and so forth. I can keep trotting these out willy nilly, as required.

The main thing to me is - Cloti's shouldn't go around saying that "Cloti is canon" as though it's fact when SE has never said any such thing.

They've also never said Cloud went and did all of the sidequests in Wall Market, but we can determine that he did because of other factors. We do not require an explicit declaration to come to a reasonable conclusion when the facts are as numerous, consistent, and weighty as they are.

It's not on the "For the One I Love" page. The "For the One I Love" page says that Cloud and Tifa's feelings match, but then there's a page number at the top of the Highwind picture for reference:

If you turn to page 232, it says this:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania


Why was that omitted from the article here: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

Because it's not part of the page in question, doesn't say what you're claiming- or rather, says more than what you're claiming- and does not contravene the other 6 times that 'feelings' have been declared as part of the story. Seven if we include the primary column of 232. 8 adding FTOIL.

Conveniently leaving that out seems pretty dishonest to me, especially since it blows your whole claim that Cloti is canon. The same article says this:

Actually, it really doesn't, but I'll save that for a few points later in the text.

First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads


Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’

So your article says that no one version of the Date is official because it's under player cntrol.

As I mention, I don't hold that as the case, and two simple words added convey my point there much better.
"so no one version is 'made official' here.

And indeed, the High Highwind scene isn't strictly 'made official' here either. But the feelings being confirmed, and the feelings being of love, ARE. We have been told, eight times, that shared feelings confirmed is the outcome of the deviation. One one we are told these shared feelings are romantic in nature, just as we are told the dates are romantic in nature by their inclusion on this page (We know from elsewhere, though, that they are not so from Cloud's perspective, as he is Clueless of their intentions at this point in time.) In fact, which version of the highwind scene occurred is irrelevant unless one argues that feelings are somewhow materially different in one version, but that would make the version where these mutual romantic feelings are not shared not the official version. Indeed, p232 says that feelings were shared that night. It also says that feelings are shared if you get the high highwind scene in a side note. Rather than remove the ability for us to know which version is official, it gives us the ability to do so, just as we know the answer to the deviation of Shadow dying on the floating continent, or the optional characters joining in FF7.

However, the same book says that the Highwind scene is under player control. That's what having "2 versions" means. That's what it means when it says, "the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection."

I know why you *THINK* the Highwind scene has a canon version, but the fact is that SE has never said that the Highwind scene has a canon version. Hate to tell you, but that's nothing but your own opinion.

It's certainly more than an opinion. It's got a body of evidence, a stated hypothesis, a logical progression, a narrative reasoning, hell, I could present it as a formal syllogism without too much trouble.

On the other hand, SE has said that the CloudxAerith date is easier to get.

This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in the Gold Saucer.~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

What's your point? Cloud's still clueless on the date regardless of whether Aerith or Tifa like him more at that point. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that it's a lot harder to get the perfect version of FF10-2. I guess that one of the worse versions happened in your view?

I think if SE is going to say which Date is easier to get, they'd say if the Cloti version of the Highwind scene is canon. But they've never said such a thing.

Point of order: Both versions validate the C/T pairing. Both versions have the two parties involved unveil that they heard the heart of the other in the lifestream, where their feelings were unveiled to each other.
It is just that one version is more expressive than the other.
That is the version listed as one of the four important scenes of FF7. And we know from a number of occasions provided by Tres that feelings were shared that night. Period. End of. Feelings Cloud and Tifa held for each other. This is already quite compelling evidence, but having it noted that Cloud and Tifa share mutual feelings (without words) on this night really just removes all doubt about what these feelings are.
You point to p232 to say that 'It says there's a choice to be made.' I point to p232 and note that it still says that the feelings are mutually confirmed that night. That an deviation is noted doesn't mean there's no official version. I indeed hold that to be the case even with the date. I conclude that we presently cannot tell which of them IS official one, because the evidence is incredibly inconsistent, and I adopt the 'Fuck it, they all did' hypothesis, which is not without its issues in some respects, but which is highly amusing and satisfying for several reasons.
In any case, just as words aren't the only way to tell someone you love them, official declarations aren't the only way to make something official/canon/chocolate covered cheesecake.

Just to point it out, I'm fairly certain Anastar believes feelings were shared in both versions, but only in the High Affection version were feelings of romance shared. In the Low Affection version, we don't know what the feelings were. That's the common response I see to that anyway. And to be fair, I don't think it was ever said "NO FEELINGS ARE SHARED IN THE LOW VERSION!" just that it was apathetic, which shows little feeling, but not none.

ap·a·thet·ic adj \ˌa-pə-ˈthe-tik\

Definition of APATHETIC

1 : having or showing little or no feeling or emotion
2 : having little or no interest or concern

So, Cloud and Tifa share their mutual little or no feelings?
Sorry, Quex, that'a make'a no sense.

"I don't feel one way or the other about things."
"Me either."

 

[Zee]

I think Cloud and Tifa have a beautiful moirallegiance together.

 

[Fighter]

What a fascinating word.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The idea that Cloud and Tifa shared feelings of having no feelings is ridiculous.
If Cloud and Tifa were apathetic towards the idea of romance between the two, they would not bring it up. That's what "having no concern" about it means.

But we know that isn't true even before we get to the scene, because Cloud IS concerned with it. He tells Tifa in the Lifestream that he is pleased to know that Tifa likes him that way. How can he possibly be apathetic hrs later?

And as Ryu et al already said, SE mention mutual feelings of romance shared something like 8 times. Although they acknowledge that there are 2 versions, the outcome never changes according to them. The contents of the conversation change, but not the actual outcome. Note that Tifa is, for example, embarrassed in both versions knowing that the party was either listening or watching. That is pretty much the difference between the two -- in one version they do so in a manner that includes an embarrassing action that is then witnessed by the party. That is, as Tifa says, in the high affection version feelings are not conveyed using words. In the other, they are.

If you're claiming a different outcome, you are doing so in opposition to what the staff have mentioned. EIGHT. FREAKING. TIMES. Not to mention events in the actual game (otherwise why is Tifa, again, embarrased that ppl were listening?). Never have SE alluded to anything "apathetic". This is a subject they've taken up numerous times and all times the highwind scene is referred to, it's said to have resulted in the same outcome. Which is that Tifa and Cloud share mutual romantic feelings for each other. Even when they have accounted for the low affection version.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Point of order- I would argue you haven't done your own research. You've relied upon the writings of others and not the experience of the OG and other related compilation materials. What research has been done hasn't really been YOURS.

And I would counter that I did my own clarification of what I've read. There are parts which I don't understand with regards to essays, so I try looking for other facts to support it. If I find none, I drop it.
And what research would you have me do that has not been done and tackled elsewhere?

In a two year period after her demise, she makes an appearance all of twice, both during major world events. A year later, during another such event, an event where she'd be even MORE concerned with showing up and saving the planet, she doesn't.

It's about DoC, is it? Take this in mind. DoC, is more concerned with Vincent's life. AC was concerned with Cloud's life. Seeing the subject of said events, SE made it clear to whom Aerith's appearance should be emphasized.

And seeing as how you pointed out that Great Gospel was already Aerith's spell in Disc1, can you think of another of her spells which could counter Omega?

Also, no, Vendel was not saying he pairs couples because of the amount of running time they have. He was saying Aerith is in the entire movie for less time than Cloud and Tifa spend in a single scene. There's really nothing of substance in the movie from which to conclude a romance. And it's interesting you say there was longing, when Cloud says 'I want forgiveness.' What you've mistaken for longing is guilt.

Sometimes, the shortest of moments holds the strongest of content.
No. I did not even say where I saw the 'longing' Cloud felt. It's when Cloud tried to turn around to look at Aerith, to see her face again. I took it as him longing to see her again.

CR, I will wait for you to finish to respond. However, I wonder why you simply did not wait to post the entire reply.

It's done now, Ryu. I had started on replying already and was hoping I could finish it in time, but I couldn't so there.

Looks like Ryu hit most of the major points here.

He beat ya to it. :p

But let me ask you something else. How do you get "friendship" from the C/T scenes? What about Cloud finding her knocked out in the church. Or her chewing him out (in a bedroom) because he wouldn't go rescue their children. Or Cloud telling Denzel (and Tifa) that he is coming back home. Or Tifa handing Denzel off to Cloud in the end screaming "friendship"?

Cloud finds her there, she says that he's late, he asks who did it, she replies, Tifa remembers Marlene, then collapses, and then looks around and he says "Damn!" before he lost consciousness during a Geostigma attack. Where is the romance there?
Like you said, Tifa chewed Cloud out because he left the task of rescuing the children to Reno and Rude.
And Cloud's promise to Denzel, I didn't even notice Tifa that time, that he's going back home, well, it was like a younger brother excited and delighted to have his big brother back home.
Tifa just told Denzel to go near Cloud, and did not hand him over to the blonde. It was like me telling my sister to go and say hello to a friend who came over.

When you saw the family photo or when Cloud thinks of his family how did that spell "friends" to you?

Family photo... Where Cloud seemed so quiet and distant? Yeah. That's one good family photo they have.
Thinks of his family? When was that?

I was just 13 (or 14?) when I watched AC. I watched it because I saw a poster of Cloud and Sephiroth (the cover I guess?) and it looked kick-ass. I was more into the action than the romance itself, but still, I noticed Cloud and Aerith.

So in your efforts to remove the presence of Zack you now say he didn't leave "together" with Aerith? Because he may have been...what, a half step ahead of her?

You're over-analyzing. I said technically, they didn't leave together. Zack went out first. If you were with your love interest, you would've waited for her to exit first. Where did I even imply that I want to remove the presence of Zack? I was stressing how unromantic that scene was.

Are you that threatened by the idea of Z/A having any connection post CC?

Why should I feel threatened with something that had happened in the past?

No one said it did. But if they, two dead people can't be a pair, then how can C/A?

But you would've loved to use it to emphasize Zerith, would you not? We're talking about the Buster being in the Church.

But the sword in the church and the flowers on Zack's grave paint a rather vivid picture of what Cloud's thoughts on the Z/A relationship is/was.

Was there ever a part in the game where Zack told Cloud about Aerith? I don't really remember. So if there were none, Cloud only has Aerith's view of the Zerith past, which isn't much to go on about because Aerith moved on from it.

Well in that particular instance it was his first time in her room.

Because he always wanted to be included in her circle and this was one of the rare occasions that he was. You should play the game.

Oh, so there was a official statement where it was said that being in her room was Cloud's important personal memory then? How nice.

Ok, let me get this straight. So you think Cloud, the same Cloud that left the Buster Sword -Zack's iconic old sword, the symbol of his pride, honor and dreams (and even in the OG the sword is always shown in Zack's model and is the only thing seen in the start menu, which kinda gives it importance)- in the place where his best friend died and the place he visits to remember him, but then took it to the place where Aerith's presence is strongest just out of pure convenience? Not to mention that seems kind of disrespecting to move what is practically a tombstone from it's place just because it's more convenient.

In the first place, Cloud isn't even visiting Aerith's grave. He kept on visiting the Church, which symbolizes Aerith in every way especially with the flowers. Moving the Buster Sword, which also symbolizes Zack, to a place which can be seen as a memorial, yes, can be because the Church would now be a memorial for both of them.

And it would be logical to remove the Buster Sword from Zack's grave where flowers were blooming. And where else would he move it? The Church, the place he goes to visit often.

And if that was the case, wouldn't it make more sense for the sword to be in the place where Aerith died then? Since outskirts of Midgar-Church is a lot more accessible than Forgotten City-Midgar.

Hmm. I thought that the Church was still in Midgar in the Slums? And the Forgotten City, I do remember someone saying that it takes hours to go there rather than go to the Church... Oh well.

And assuming Cloud loves Aerith, wouldn't it be kind of awkward to have her ex around while visiting her?

Zack is a friend who died for him to live. Zack's already with Aerith in the Lifestream for quite some time now. Zack is an EX. So, why would it be awkward?

FOR THE LOVE OF CLOUD. Seriously??!

Wow, CR, yet you acted like some kind of Know-It-All Goddess on the front page...

It's because not being able to play the game doesn't mean that there aren't any other sources to know what happened.

FYI, I also watched FFVIIAC first before playing the game. I did know that there was some kind of love triangle in FFVII and that their names were Aerith-Cloud-Tifa, and that Aerith died in the middle of the game, and that was it. I had not really had anyone in favor. Hell, I didn't even know what was going on and what was happening or why.

Then I watched FFVIIAC and I knew why people had been telling me that there was a love triangle. Because it did seem like a love triangle. In the movie.

Yes, in AC Aerith's presence was always at important times, but at the time I thought that was normal for a character that had been declared "dead", because if not, the story wouldn't be that "dramatic".

Because after all, for me, Aerith's presences carried totally no romance related presented.

(okay now's the ONLY time I won't relate anything to aaalll thooose huge amounts of facts that have been stated by SE, AND ONLY SE. This was purely my first thoughts. A "reader's response" is the term).

When I watched AC at the very first time, I immediately recognized Cloud's and Tifa's feelings to each other.

First, when Tifa found out that Cloud's been in the church, Tifa's expression was more like relieved that they'd "found" him. Now when she knew that Cloud's been having the stigma, then she began to worry, moreover when she knew that Cloud was planning to give up.

And then, apparently when they finally met and were having the conversation, Cloud DID plan to give up and die, and he was speechless when Tifa pointed that out. --> that was the first point for the know-nothing me. The fact that Tifa really understood Cloud that she knew exactly what he was thinking.

Next was the scene when Cloud found Tifa lying unconscious. If you see his eyes, they pretty much told you that he was worried to death and was quite upset to the one who did that to Tifa.

Back to when they were quarreling, Cloud immediately deny when Tifa said "hontou no kazoku ja nai kara, dame ka" and said that the reason was him thinking that he wouldn't be able to save anyone.

And then after Marlene said, "doushite atashitachi no hanashi wa kiite kurenai no?" and Vincent asked "kore wa tatakai no hanashi ka?" it got him him to conversation that ended with Tifa asking, "atashitachi...omoide ni maketa no?" and he kind of heard Aerith's saying "ne, mou yurushite agetara", then he decided to try the "forgiving" --> that got me thinking whether he started to realize that he'd been doing a big mistake, which worried his "family" and friends so much that it got them(particularly Marlene and Tifa) thinking he doesn't care about them anymore.

And finally, Cloud did go for the children after having the conversation with Tifa.

I didn't get why everyone said Cloud was with Aerith because every time she appeared, I really thought that they were all like what a mother would do for her beloved son.

"you came. even though you're about to break, hm. that's a good sign."
(I forgot the Japanese for this one..) and "dare ni?"

"zuru zuru. zuru zuru. ne, mou yurushite agetara."

"I never blamed you. not once" (I also forgot this)

-the one when everyone helped Cloud defeating Bahamut Sin-

-the one healing Cloud's stigma and told him to go-

-finally where Cloud could finally really see Aerith and Zack in the end of the movie she said, "mou daijoubu da ne."

*pardon my mistyping or mispelling. I'm actually quite illiterate at Japanese. Due to watching too many doramas, my skills are only limited at listening and speaking.

All of them reminded me of a mother who was soothing her son, telling him that what he was feeling sorry about was actually wasn't really his fault. She once got tired of her son being gloomy all the time and told him to just forgive himself. The other times, encouraging her son to keep facing forward, and the very last (and this was the clearest for me at the time), reminded me of my own experience seeing mothers saying, "I told you so."
LOL.

Well, I can't remember the rest because only those memories above still stood out unaffected by the facts. Those were purely my first assumption as a total newbie in the world of FFVII, a reader's response from me.

I saw Cloud and Tifa as the couple because they: worried about each other, quarreling with each other, Tifa(and Marlene) got disappointed with Cloud then felt like they had no hope, then Cloud decided to try to forgive himself and move on, but in the end they just understand each other.

Without any hugging scene (like Squall-Rinoa) or kissing scene (like Tidus-Yuna), for me those things above were the ones that defined what a couple really was like in the real life.

But don't worry. Then I PLAYED the game. THAT was when I began to wonder why the hell people think there was a love triangle.

(again a reader's response)
Cloud was in Zack's memory. He was not really him. So I only counted his telling us, "maybe I could see her there." for his feeling to Aerith, and I also thought that he wished to see her to say he was sorry for not being able to protect her.

The date scene was totally optional, it could be changed easily. I could even make a rectangle love story by debating that Yuffie was on the scene if the date really that mattered.

Cloud had been having his eyes on Tifa since he was a child. He wanted to be recognized by her. He was also ashamed of himself and couldn't face Tifa when he didn't manage to really become a SOLDIER like he had told her.

Tifa was the one who helped Cloud regained his true self.

Tifa was the one who took care of Cloud when he was treated in Mideel's clinic.

The HW scene (the conversation in both versions were not really what an "ordinary friend" would share.)

And (again) the fact that Cloud was only honest to Tifa and Tifa really understand Cloud.


OKAY. enough for interpretations.

For our differences, I didn't even know that the FF Franchise were games. The first FF I saw were "Spirits Within". So when I saw FF7:AC, I thought it was a sequel or something. I even though Spirits Within was FF4 or FF5.

And like I said in the article comments page, you have your interpretations based on facts (in this case-scenes) which you saw. And I have mine.

CR, if you claim yourself a true FFVII fan, I don't see any reason why you would not play the game. Reading the walkthrough or even the script wouldn't even pay for the feel when you actually play the game, follow the story with your own eyes, step by step, and reveal every little secret inside.

There's nothing compared to actually playing the game. any game for that matter. period.

So until you actually do know everything, I suggest you drop the know-it-all Goddess act, because it really pisses me off when someone act like a God when s/he doesn't even know how to plant a seed, let alone create the whole universe.

To be clear, I cannot play the game. It's not that I would not play it. There's a difference. And I know exactly what it feels like to actually play a game.

Know-it-all Goddess act? Don't bring your insults for me here. And if you refuse to be civil in debating with me, then you are not worthy of my replies.

*pardon my language, but I am so very pissed off right now.

Learn to separate your emotions. You've already made that mistake with me in the comments.

And btw, welcome to the LTD Forum here on TLS, Heroine.

 

[Celes Chere]

This is sort of an echo, but:

And to be fair, I don't think it was ever said "NO FEELINGS ARE SHARED IN THE LOW VERSION!" just that it was apathetic, which shows little feeling, but not none.

Yes, but some of Tres's quotes say they shared mutual feelings.... and Tifa obviously loves Cloud and was expressing that in the high AND low version. So really either way, as long as the quote about them sharing mutual feelings exists it doesn't matter which version is canon. According to the quotes he posted though, all signs point to the high version. All of those quotes are positive, especially the one that branches out to say they live together. If the low version were canon, why would it make sense to say:
"Yeah, they shared feelings that weren't very strong and were apathetic, but they decided to live together"