The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's harsh to hear from a business partner. I believe in the ku, goddammit!

 

[Strangelove]

That's harsh to hear from a business partner. I believe in the ku, goddammit!

don't worry, i'm sure your pain will be... fleeting


is there a bullet point summary of what the argument against this is? because looking through all the tumblr posts is just doing my head in and i want a quick answer

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

My understanding is the argument is thus:

-Cloud's love for Tifa as a child was fleeting
-Therefore, he cannot be in love with her in the present
-Aerith wins by default

Nevermind the numerous quotes that say Cloud and Tifa were carrying their feelings around for years up to the present. And, hell, while we're at it, let's just discard the Kitase quote that says FFVII was the first FF game to have a hero romantically teeter between two heroines, even though that's one of the only two admissions of Cloud having romantic feelings toward Aerith.

 

[Octo]

Question: What did Nomura (I think it was him) say in regards to Cloud/Tifa. IIRC he said that they would have had problems regardless of whether Aerith lived or not. Yet I'm seeing people saying 'Nomura said it would never work out between C/T'

So which is it? Because they're two vastly different statements, and in any case to have problems in a relationship well...uh...don't you actually have to be in a relationship first?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

My understanding is the argument is thus:

-Cloud's love for Tifa as a child was fleeting
-Therefore, he cannot be in love with her in the present
-Aerith wins by default

Nevermind the numerous quotes that say Cloud and Tifa were carrying their feelings around for years up to the present. And, hell, while we're at it, let's just discard the Kitase quote that says FFVII was the first FF game to have a hero romantically teeter between two heroines, even though that's one of the only two admissions of Cloud having romantic feelings toward Aerith.

Wow, this feels familiar. Oh wait, a bunch of people pretending the greater context that builds up the canonicity of Cloud and Tifa's relationship isn't a thing in favor of singling out individual bits of it to fight tooth and nail against. No, nevermind I remember where this deja vu is coming from now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Question: What did Nomura (I think it was him) say in regards to Cloud/Tifa. IIRC he said that they would have had problems regardless of whether Aerith lived or not. Yet I'm seeing people saying 'Nomura said it would never work out between C/T'

So which is it?

It was Nojima, actually, and he said the premise of Case of Tifa suggests that things may not work out, and that they would have had problems without Sephiroth or geostigma -- but that they also may still work things out.

He also added that there would have also been problems had Cloud ended up with Aerith instead.

Here's the quote (I forget whose translation this was; I think this one was Que's):

"First, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to work it out. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think."

Because they're two vastly different statements, and in any case to have problems in a relationship well...uh...don't you actually have to be in a relationship first?

Yes.

 

[Strangelove]

my version of that nojima quote about cloud/tifa/aerith:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=141354&postcount=35

(bless, it was back when i used proper punctuation still)

on other stuff:

i have looked at the tumblr of the person who is the translator touting 'feeling and immature' as correct, where they have also posted two quotes from dismantled which they gave the wrong reading for words and missed grammatical points (oh the irony). there is another post saying they're a noob at japanese from 5 months ago, but these dismantled quotes are from two weeks ago.

同時に, 身休の芯から凍りつきそうに, 俺は怖い 。
Dōjini, mi kyū no shin kara kōritsuki-sō ni, ore wa kowai.

“At the same time, I seemed to be frozen from the core of my entire body, I’m scared.”

身体 is 'karada' or 'shintai', 'mi kyuu' only makes sense if you're reading the individual kanji separately.

that translation also doesn't acknowledge the ～そうに (~sou ni), which is meant to be applied to 怖い (i'm scared, as if i'm freezing from the core of my body/chills me from my very core/whateva).

エアリスはどんなときでも, 花のょうに笑ってみせた。でも, もうエアリスは笑れない。
Earisuha don’na toki demo, hana no yo ni waratte miseta.
Demo, mō earisuha emi renai.

'emirenai' isn't a word, it would be 'wararenai'. would be if that was correct, but it's not. it's 笑わない, warawanai. (also 'yo ni' should be 'you ni' and written よう&#12395


is it bitchy to pick apart stuff like this, or is it fine when the person involves claims other people are butchering stuff

oh whelp

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I learn so much from reading your posts, guys, so personally I don't think it's bitchy, I think it's called caring about accuracy.

 

[Dashell]

Just FYI so no one thinks I'm hiding anything, this whole tumblr thing didn't happen over nothing. I was the one who called out Cali on her translation pointing out awai wasn't fleeting and it wasn't "awaku" like she said on CxA, but the word she was looking for was awai (since awaku would be an adverb and yadiyadiyada).

Also added was "put down the thesaurus, you aren't fooling anyone"

That's when sister came into defend her. So I guess I kinda asked for it ... I feel bad that I dragged my followers through it though
I didn't think about that at the time.

..

still not sure about this whole ku thing though XD
It seems a tad over the top really.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

while we're at it, let's just discard the Kitase quote that says FFVII was the first FF game to have a hero romantically teeter between two heroines, even though that's one of the only two admissions of Cloud having romantic feelings toward Aerith.

Wait, there's two!? Omg
Which is the other one, the "what about us, what are WE supposed to do" blurb? I've been wondering about this recently since it looks to me like 俺 [Ore]
is used in the original Japanese text for the Cloud's speech while holding Aerith after she meets her fate scene along with other stuffs including a word which I heard means an object/person close/nearby to the speaker (physically), since if I have this right 俺 [Ore] is the first person plural for when used for stuffs like I/we/us in the masculine personal/informal/intimate sense, along with the word used for an object/person close to the speaker, it might mean he was referring to himself and Aerith when he says we/us?? I think so but Though not saying it's definitely meant as a romantic we/us (it might be!) Just wondering if Cloud means himself and Aerith for whatever it is as opposed to say Avalanche or something. Like this whole ordeal/big deal/thingy was supposed to be about Cloud's feels over losing Aerith right regardless of what exactly she meant/people think she meant to him right?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/aerithone.png/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/aerithfour.png/

 

[supergumbo]

Nah, it isn't bitchy when said translator is questioning the legitimacy of multiple translators and touting her version as the "official" one, especially on one silly line. It's pretty immature and reeks of insecurity. She really does need to be called out on this.

And it doesn't even matter because Cloud and Tifa will still have favored (loved) each other for years, and have a climactic moment where their outpouring of "fleeting and immature" feelings (love) turn into something special, in which they agree to form a partnership. Anybody with half a brain and some common sense knows that this "cali" translator is full of garbage. It's embarrassing really, and I was never much of a shipper to begin with.

 

[Strangelove]

you should start something, sister seems like a total bitch to anyone who disagrees with her, a noob with like 5 months experience. i would start something if i could be arsed.

but she actually knows what she's talking about, guys. she noticed the ku before any of you

I've been wondering about this recently since it looks to me like 俺 [Ore]
is used in the original Japanese text for the Cloud's speech while holding Aerith after she meets her fate scene along with other stuffs including a word which I heard means an object/person close/nearby to the speaker (physically), since if I have this right 俺 [Ore] is the first person plural for when used for stuffs like I/we/us in the masculine personal/informal/intimate sense, along with the word used for an object/person close to the speaker, it might mean he was referring to himself and Aerith when he says we/us?? I think so but Though not saying it's definitely meant as a romantic we/us (it might be!) Just wondering if Cloud means himself and Aerith for whatever it is as opposed to say Avalanche or something. Like this whole ordeal/big deal/thingy was supposed to be about Cloud's feels over losing Aerith right regardless of what exactly she meant/people think she meant to him right?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/aerithone.png/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/aerithfour.png/

俺 is cloud's pronoun of choice for the game. it isn't plural itself, but by adding '-tachi' (not on a computer with japanese input right now) it is

the other word you're talking about would be 'kono', which is the equivalent to 'this'. it means this sadness, belonging to him/them. (as opposed to using 'sono [kanashimi]' which would be the listener's.) it's part of the next sentence, not the one before with 俺.

i don't know if anything there really narrows it down to talking solely about two people or everyone. i think it goes down to how you read the line yourself.

(and if someone could merge my posts that would be super)

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

still not sure about this whole ku thing though XD
It seems a tad over the top really.

Hmmmm... one single word being heavily disputed, to the point of people claiming translators are biased/incompetent/whatever in an attempt to make things work how they want. Very over the top indeed. Said word begins with a "K" when rendered in our alphabet.

Why does this sound so familiar?

 

[Danseru-kun]

ACKNOWLEDGE THE KU is my new favourite thing

Now that's more I like it

Anyway, do you want me to consult again to Risa? The awai/awaku thingy?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm interested in reading what she might say. Go ahead, if you don't mind. Couldn't hurt to get as much input as possible.

Wait, there's two!? Omg
Which is the other one, the "what about us, what are WE supposed to do" blurb?

I actually see the comment from Nojima about Case of Tifa (the "love, marriage and family" quote) as an acknowledgement of him having romantic feelings for Aerith as well. Otherwise, why talk about how things might have turned out with her?

It's not as straightforward as the Kitase comment, maybe, but it seems fairly indicative of that notion.

 

[Dashell]

Thankfully things are winding down on tumblr. I think I'll make one more post about that and let it go.

I actually see the comment from Nojima about Case of Tifa (the "love, marriage and family" quote) as an acknowledgement of him having romantic feelings for Aerith as well. Otherwise, why talk about how things might have turned out with her?

But...


(you know where this is going)

did he acknowledge the ku?

EDIT
okay
http://dashaque.tumblr.com/post/40001105520/response-to-cali-and-sister

Hopefully that ends everything there. It seems like things were winding down but since when people noticed stuff and how and when seemed to be an issue so hopefully a timeline helps. I don't think I'll respond to anything else after this. phew...

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm friends with some Cleriths/Clerifas and I can see them receiving anonymous messages saying "I'm abandoning Clerith because of the behavior of some Cleriths and because of the info showing Cloti is canon."

It makes me sad.

This is never our goal.

 

[Dashell]

Just an update: Cali's sister and I seem to have come to a stop now... I apologize for dragging that drama into here... so let's just try to forget that, okay? I don't want any more of the drama there to leak there or vise versa.

I'm friends with some Cleriths/Clerifas and I can see them receiving anonymous messages saying "I'm abandoning Clerith because of the behavior of some Cleriths and because of the info showing think Cloti is canon."

Yeah people should just ship what they want and ... pfft even if canon says it's not... well canon... who cares? Clerith is still an amazing ship. It's beautiful really. I don't want people to stop shipping it just because it's not canon

 

[Strangelove]

forgetting it doesn't really solve the issue that this quote is getting thrown around as square officially saying it is "fleeting and immature" without questioning, stopping

but hahaha i was the one who said "bitch" (after seeing about two dozen posts of her calling people cunts and belittling people who disagreed with her and trying to school them on metaphors... when she was talking about "if you sleep with the dog you get its fleas" which is an idiom/proverb).

if tres 'flew off the handle' or whatever then it was probably because of the way he was treated when he did. i have disagreed with and given corrections to tres a bunch of times and he never exploded into a violent rage (i did just that in the 25th anniversary ultimania thread and there was no outbursts)

but yeah, after the years i am going to be skeptical of anyone who suddenly appears and says something i think looks wrong. it has happened a bunch of times in the past, where a new translator suddenly shows up and gives a c/a supporting translation or ones that just so happen to disprove everything 'the other side' has said. not that anyone who is new can't be right, but there isn't any background to show what they are like. if you wanted to see how accurate tres' or my own past work has been, it's all over the place.

and the majority of these past translators just haven't been that good. it's doubt based on past experience, because after 'koi bito' and cait sith's tickets you get a little wary

and for the record i noticed the ku first when i originally saw the quote. it took a while, it's like where's waldo trying to find that guy

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

.... ... ...

I love you guys No, really. I feel like spamming gold stars everywhere now

Thank you hito I heard/was told it says ore tachiha ("we" when used together for a personal masculine/male/informal/intimate thingy thing or something Dunno if the meaning means more or less the same as tachi with the ha added onto the end of it but yeah) dou shitara kono iitami ha dou shitara (credits/kudos/thanks for this) so yeah

I actually see the comment from Nojima about Case of Tifa (the "love, marriage and family" quote) as an acknowledgement of him having romantic feelings for Aerith as well. Otherwise, why talk about how things might have turned out with her?

It's not as straightforward as the Kitase comment, maybe, but it seems fairly indicative of that notion.

Awww you

Spoiler

Danseru and Que awww yous

Spoiler

Yeah I agree, why people can't just enjoy both the Cloud/Aerith scenes on disc one, I mean they are nice and the Cloud/Tifa ones on disc two/later I don't know For me I enjoy them a lot and everytime the scene pops up in an Ultimania or something I'm like oh I remember that scene happy feels Speaking happy feels and nice scenes I've been enjoying my book and will probably be posting randomly in bits and pieces about my fiends/feels for Clerith and Cloti fluffs but for fluffs for people to enjoy for now for Aerith it looks like the Japanese word for Cloud is in a blurb beneath a giant pic of the CG scene of her before the Highwind in her profile section, along with her own name later on and a bunch of stuff in between I haven't really looked at yet , and for Tifa the shooting star/well scene/CG pic where she's sitting on the well looking up at the sky in her profile with if I have it right the word for Cloud, promise and a bunch of other stuff again I haven't really looked at yet in a blurb beneath it! I think it might be talking about Aerith's dream of riding/flying on the Highwind with Cloud and of course the Cloud/Tifa promise though Also for Aerith a screenie of the scene in the scene in the Temple of the Ancients where she is crying and Cloud asks if she's alright if I remember right (though in the book I dunno if the blurb beneath this scene/quote is more talking about Tseng - I still have to check for his name - than Cloud/Aerith but still it's nice to see that Cloud/Aerith bit referenced in some way/visually/etc) and for Tifa a screenie of her staying in Mideel with Cloud, devotedly staying by his side

 

[Strangelove]

so here is the big post containing my research so far on various things. if anyone has any sources to add, that would be cool too. i have my personal feelings on things that i've given, but this will just be presented as i find it so people can decide from there. it's a collection of references collected with the criteria that they be from a legitimate or well-known publisher or institution (thus no examples from fan translations, etc.).

Spoiler: on 淡い

Yahoo JP definitions: http://dic.search.yahoo.co.jp//search?ei=UTF-8&fr=dic&stype=prefix&p=淡い

Weblio Japanese-English definitions: http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/淡い

'Fleeting' does not appear in the definitions on Yahoo's four dictionaries, but appears in two of Welbio's.

・　【かすかな】faint;slight.
淡い恋心
a faint feeling of [（ほんのちょっぴりの） a little bit of a] love.
(ニューセンチュリー和英辞&#20856

・　2 〔かすかな，わずかな〕slight
淡い恋
a faint love

淡い望み
a slight hope
(プログレッシブ和英中辞&#20856

・　３ 　執着や関心が少なくてあっさりしている。ほのかである。
「淡い恋心」
(大辞&#27849

・　［3］ 　関心や執着の度合が薄い。
淡い恋心
（大辞林）

淡い悦びを覚えた
I felt a faint joy.
(斎藤和英大辞&#20856


From 'The Kodansha Kanji Learners Dictionary':

淡い (awai): light (colour, flavour), faint
[no relevant examples]


From 'NTC's New Japanese-English Character Dictionary':

awa(i) 淡い : light (colour, flavour), faint; fleeting, transitory

淡い悲しみ
fleeting sorrow


From 'Kenkyuusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary':

淡い - light 《color, flavor》; faint 《light, hope》; pale.

・淡い期待を寄せる　
hold faint [weak] expectations

・ボランティアの救援活動に彼らは淡い期待を寄せていた.　
They were pinning faint hopes on volunteer relief operations.

・淡い恋心　
faint feelings of love

・中学時代, 担任の先生に抱いた想い, あれはたしかに淡い恋だった.　
What I felt towards my homeroom teacher in junior high school was puppy love for sure.

・初恋の彼との淡い交際は 3 年続いた.　
My innocent association with him, my first boyfriend, went on for three years.

・この曲を聞くと遠い過去の日を思い出し, 淡い悲しみを感じる.　
When I hear this piece it makes me remember the distant past and causes me to feel slightly sad.

Spoiler: on 恋心

Yahoo JP: http://dic.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UTF-8&p=恋心&fr=dic&stype=prefix

Weblio: http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/恋心

None of Yahoo's four dictionaries give 'awakening of love' in their definitions of the word itself, though it does appear in the example sentences in the form of 恋心に目覚める.

恋心に目覚める年ごろになった
She has awakened to love.

Weblio features less entries than it did with 淡い but both feature 'awakening of love' in their definitions.


From 'NTC's New Japanese-English Character Dictionary:

恋心　koigokoro one's love


From 'Kenkyuusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary':

こいごころ【恋心】 □(koigokoro)
feelings of love; a heart filled with love.

彼女への恋心が芽生えたのはその時だった.　
It was then that I began to love [be in love] with her. ｜ It was then that my passion for her developed.

先生に恋心を抱く[寄せる]　
fall in love with [《口》 have a crush on] one's teacher.

彼への恋心は募る一方だった.　
I fell [felt] more and more deeply in love with him. ｜ My passion for him grew stronger and stronger.

There is little to add on 幼い.

Spoiler: on 淡い恋心

It has cropped up in various example sentences before, but here are a few discussions from Yahoo Chiebukuro about it.

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1454952864

What does the 淡い in 淡い恋心 mean? Does it mean like lighthearted or something?

The answer selected for the best gave a couple of words describing the nuance of the word ('pure, genuine' and 'faint, vague'), but the more detail answer was this one:

燃えるような激しい恋に対して、まだはっきりと意識していないような、とか、ためらいがちな、とか、何か些細なことで壊れてしまいそうな、というようなものが「淡い恋」といえるのではないかと思います。

些細なことで壊れてしまったりするのは、弱そうな感じも受けますが、それでも「淡い恋」が一生胸に残るようなこともありますから、必ずしも軽いとは言えないと思います。

Compared to a burning, passionate love, I think 淡い恋心 is more something like one you're not yet clearly aware of, to you're hesitant about, or it might shatter at some trivial thing.

That it might shatter because of something trivial does give the impression that it's something weak, but even so a 淡い恋心 can stay in your heart for a lifetime, so I don't think can definitively call it lighthearted.


Other questions talking about it have likened it to teenage love, or where you are happy just talking to or seeing someone without it moving into something more (dating or having sex).

Spoiler: on く

y u no acknowledge the ku

More seriously now, I'm not sure there's actually disagreement as to what this means so I don't think there is any need to go into it. Most contention seems to stem from Tres not using the literal syntax of the original sentence in his translation.

 

[Dashell]

forgetting it doesn't really solve the issue that this quote is getting thrown around as square officially saying it is "fleeting and immature" without questioning, stopping

Yeah but... stuff like that has been going on for a while.... up until CoLW people were still using "Person who loves" as a definition of koibito. People still use the tickets translation of Cait Sit's profile and they're going to continue to do so as long as the LTD is still going on. Why should it stop now? I think at this point it's almost expected for both sides to have their "own translations."

if tres 'flew off the handle' or whatever then it was probably because of the way he was treated when he did. i have disagreed with and given corrections to tres a bunch of times and he never exploded into a violent rage (i did just that in the 25th anniversary ultimania thread and there was no outbursts)

I don't think he did... I flew off the handle though
But I'm kinda known for that. And yeah there's a difference between "Hey there's a mistake you made" vs "Why did you leave this word out? Why did you ignore/hide it?" when the person who translated the post went into detail about the word he apparently hid at length

and for the record i noticed the ku first when i originally saw the quote. it took a while, it's like where's waldo trying to find that guy

I'll never look at ku the same way again XD

・　３ 　執着や関心が少なくてあっさりしている。ほのかである。
「淡い恋心」
(大辞&#27849

・　［3］ 　関心や執着の度合が薄い。
淡い恋心
（大辞林）

You didn't translate these... wait the first one is the one I translated... was I right?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Hito, can I poast that long nerdy post in tumblr, at least just in my blog because many shippers hate walls of text? Or Quex maybe you want to do that?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks for researching all that, hito. It should now be unquestionably plain to see -- by anyone interested in accuracy -- what the "awaku osanai koigokoro" matter is saying.

If someone wants to insist that "fleeting" is in any way a valid way to refer to a romantic inclination that lasted years (it was already at several years during the Nibelheim massacre -- even before Cloud and Tifa were reunited shortly before the main events of FFVII), then they can have their delusion.

Also, LOL forever at "fleeting and immature" being an "official" statement, yet translations from the same book, just a few pages later, are only "fan translations" and can't be trusted. Seriously, anybody touting that argument: please go fuck yourself.

Also, ask your new trusted translator why she hasn't corrected her "sister" on her claim that it's canon that Zack is a cheating doucher who made Aerith "cry everyday because she felt she wasn’t good for him because he was off screwing around with other women."

I would really like to see the "official" quote on that.

if tres 'flew off the handle' or whatever then it was probably because of the way he was treated when he did. i have disagreed with and given corrections to tres a bunch of times and he never exploded into a violent rage (i did just that in the 25th anniversary ultimania thread and there was no outbursts)

I'd like to know when I even supposedly had this outburst over being questioned about this. Que is literally the only person who has approached me with a question about my translation. I'd explain to anyone who wants to, you know, actually talk to me instead of just about me.

I'm used to being lied about in the LTD, but this is ridiculous.

For that matter, as you said, you have made suggestions or corrections on my translations a number of times (which I greatly appreciate, by the way). Que questions me all the time. Neither of you have been immolated yet.

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah but... stuff like that has been going on for a while.... up until CoLW people were still using "Person who loves" as a definition of koibito. People still use the tickets translation of Cait Sit's profile and they're going to continue to do so as long as the LTD is still going on. Why should it stop now? I think at this point it's almost expected for both sides to have their "own translations."

at this point i have given up on getting people to stop using nonsense like 'tickets' but it will never stop annoying me

And yeah there's a difference between "Hey there's a mistake you made" vs "Why did you leave this word out? Why did you ignore/hide it?" when the person who translated the post went into detail about the word he apparently hid at length

to be fair, at least there was actually something specified as being wrong this time. even if it was confusing

You didn't translate these... wait the first one is the one I translated... was I right?

that part was intentional i considered it but decided not to (or forgot to while looking for all the other quotes). if i can be trusted maybe i will add a translation.

・　［3］ 　関心や執着の度合が薄い。
having a small degree of interest or attachment



・　３ 　執着や関心が少なくてあっさりしている。ほのかである。
「淡い恋心」
(little attachments or concerns that are dealt with quickly/easily. To be faint)

i would say that あっさり here doesn't imply it being dealt with here, but that the thing that is awai is plain/simple? having few/little attachment or interest and being plain. to be faint.

look at that, it's ku's friend kute