The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

.. wait did Zack cheat on Aerith? Serious question here, I don't remember that.

Re hito (Can't quote Japanese cause I'm at work )
okay so... where does fleeting exactly come from if it wasn't the part I translated? None of the definitions you provided mea fleeting, so why do some Jap > English dictionaries say so?

EDIT
also what's all this about Clerith's quitting being Clerith because of the new translations? What was in this book that wasn't in all the others? O_o

 

[Strangelove]

To be honest, I'm not really sure where it comes from. If anyone knows of another Japanese-Japanese dictionary that would be cool, but those two on Yahoo are the only ones I know and other sites seem to use the same ones. If I had to guess I suppose something that's faint won't always last very long (thus disappears, hence fleeting) and that's where it's from. Several attempts to look up 'fleeting' in English-Japanese dictionaries hasn't so far shown me 淡い as a translation for it, unless I have missed it. This is why I didn't see that meaning applying here, and plus each time a reference to love has appeared in examples it is always translated as faint or similar.

Edit; posting it on tumblr, I was going to see if there was anything else to add and with tumblr once it's posted and reblogged it's stuck in its original form unless manually edited. I don't really mind if once there is nothing more to add it gets posted.

Also timeline, it's somewhere between 12th September 0008 and 21st January 0009 for the Lifestream scene, don't know if there is a more exact date than that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I use denshi jisho. FWIW, it gives "light, pale, faint, fleeting" for 淡い

I have no axe to grind here, I just looked it up out of interest.

There was also another disputed word/kanji which denshi jisho used in an example sentence which was relevant - something about "dim" love? I can't find it now and I'm too lazy to go back through the posts to see which one it was.

If denshi jisho is a bad bad thing it would probably be good for me to know that.

 

[Unlucky]

Also, ask your new trusted translator why she hasn't corrected her "sister" on her claim that it's canon that Zack is a cheating doucher who made Aerith "cry everyday because she felt she wasn’t good for him because he was off screwing around with other women."

I cannot, in all seriousness, figure out how this came to be. Is this person trolling or what? Though something tells me she isn't

 

[Strangelove]

I want to reply to some comments made on Danseru-kun's tumblr post but can't do that on tumblr right now since only my phone's Internet is working now. So bear with me here.

Please. For the love of languages and Linguists all over the world—please explain how you (plural) came about condensing two separate words that have nothing to do with “childhood” into the word “childhood” and why some of the words were omitted

How does 幼い have nothing to do with childhood? That's one of its definitions.

I’m sorry. As a Linguist I find this incredibly odd, and also very interesting. Perhaps your native Japanese friend could explain to me why one could pick to omit words and whatnot (or any other who decided to translate this quote) or ended up with the translation she currently has

Risa's translation omits absolutely nothing. There is not a single word missing from the translation she provides.

You also ignore the “and also” that’s attached to the awa word (your “japanese” friend didn’t even notice the “and also/ku” particle but MY sister did)

This is just a saga now. Risa didn't miss the ku, she just didn't need to write it as 'and'. But the same function is there, two adjectives describing the same noun. Despite the constant fixation on acknowledging the ku there is absolutely no detrimental effect by writing
"faint, young love" instead of "faint and young love".

You cannot do that with a complex Language such as Japanese

Someone better warn Square Enix, because they do this shit all the time.

You guys, at first, omitted “awaku & osanai” and “condensed” it to “childhood” (when “childhood isn’t even present in the sentence). earswithfoots has been the only one translating every word of the quote. She was the first one to notice that “ku” was there to show that there was a separation between the two adjectives “awa” and “osanai” (and this mere observation proves which person is more skilled in the language, and that goes to my sister (not even “risa” noticed it )

1) The translations by Quex, Risa, and the little comment I gave on it did not omit either word.
2) 幼い is young in age or childish. How is that not at all related to childhood?
3) Again, the 3 translations mentioned in 1) all take the usage of ku into account, even if it doesn't rabidly adhere to sticking 'and' in there. Honestly, you have to be pretty bad at Emglish not to see that there is no substantial difference between the translation with 'and' and the one without. (I would argue the one without is a closer match to the original, which used く instead of the longer くて.)

But the suggestion that there is no other definition possible for 淡い but 'fleeting' is beyond ridiculous and not worth any further debating except there are like a dozen definitions showing that isn't true.

The people who omitted words, and condensed words, and didn’t notice a simple particle such as “ku” and what it meant?

And ku isn't a particle.

 

[Dashell]

... okay so... yeah this ku thing is still going on, huh?
I thought I settled this with the sister, who... probably has a name I just don't know what...

One thing I just want to say to our readers, even if I did really miss the ku and Tres really did screw up with childhood, that's no reason to talk bad about Hito. He wasn't really involved in all of this other than giving his take on the sentence.

also gonna try this... so is 幼い describing Cloud's age or the love's age?

 

[Splintered]

This headache is almost worth it to see Tres, Que, and Hito break down all the language talk. It's kind of awesome.

 

[Strangelove]

Since we know Cloud held a crush on her during his childhood that means any future love would be a continuation of his past crush, meaning his supposed love can’t be just “beginning”, as TLS suggests, because his crush “began” YEARS ago. Does this seriously make sense to them?

also omg 'beginning' used in reference to this quote refers to what is shown in the lifestream scene

which is cloud's childhood

when his feelings would have been first beginning

not his feelings during the lifestream scene itself in the present

someone just kill me now please

for the record, i can't speak for anyone else but if i said beginning it had nothing to do with the word 'young' but as an overall nuance from the phrase awai koigokoro. but way to go trying to build up opposing arguments that no one made just so you can look clever and tear them now. good show.

look at the whole text before talking about cloud as a child. that is what is being talked about there, what feelings cloud had as a child. who in the world of tls said that young means his feelings are starting in the present.

this would be funny if it wasn't blindingly stupid at this point.

young is his love. because he was a child at the time, so he would feel a childish love.

 

[Splintered]

But even if it was an HONEST mistake on their part, this just shows who’s translations are more reliable—
Which sounds more reliable to you??

• The people who omitted words, and condensed words, and didn’t notice a simple particle such as “ku” and what it meant?

• or the girl who never omitted words, the girl who never condensed words, and ALWAYS knew why “ku” was present and what it meant and translated the sentence accordingly to the “ku” particle?

I can’t believe how much you guys are lying about this, it’s ridiculous. This quote (either translation) proves that Cloud’s love has now become something that has “fleeted”, meaning it was a mere crush that died out (much like with Zerith).
I wouldn’t even be showing you guys how you’re wrong, but since you all thought it was so cute to mock us for how we translated it, nah, that’s where it ends.

NOPE.FUcKINGNOPE.

I was inclined to believe the Clerith translations were done with the best of intentions and they feel hurt by some of what they said on here but this.

Fuck this.

I draw the line at people trying to make me believe that Hito/Quex/Tres are liars, or that Hito and Tres who have been doing this for fucking years, and have made every effort to explain their translation, are somehow incompetent.

The only thing that makes me angrier is that some poor sob is going to actually believe this bullshit, meanwhile they are perfectly happy to read all the old translations they've done in the past. Kiss my ass

 

[Strangelove]

can i just lolz at 'whose translations are more reliable'

what other translations has cali's sister done

translation showdown

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't even understand where this shit about me condensing "awaku" and "osanai" comes from. "Awakening" is essentially my use of "awai" in the translation, since "koigokoro" is used at times to refer to that.

"Childhood awakening of love" conveys the same meaning as "young stirrings of love," "stirrings of childhood love," "stirrings of young love," "transitional, juvenile love," "adolescent beginnings of love" -- or even "faint, young love." Yes, even with that comma there.

My way just sounded better to me.

Hell, I even said that I deliberately didn't use "young love" to avoid the impression of a reciprocal, established relationship. Since that hadn't happened yet when they were kids.

But I guess it's easier to call me a liar and ignore these explanations I've written than to ask me why I translated it the way I did, or to even bother reading my reasons. Just what the hell?

Nothing was omitted. These "people" (a.k.a. Cali) just need to pick up a fucking vocabulary somewhere.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't even understand where this shit about me condensing "awaku" and "osanai" comes from.

honestly right now this entire thing is basically making up arguments and points and assigning them to other people

i suppose 'condensing' could come from the the fact that some dictionaries give 'awakening of love' as a definition, and if you're being literal it looks like you have missed out the first adjective (i still feel a bit wary of the 'awakening of love' definition for it, given that neither of the japanese dictionaries i have checked give that as a meaning)

even if it feels more like it comes from a desire to make dissenters seem like shysters

 

[ForceStealer]

Was Cali also the one helping DLPB with his translation? I don't think so, but I can't remember and that would be freaking hilarious.

It's weird how, the more conclusive evidence comes out, the more acidic the debate becomes. What Quex said about supporting the ship you want even if canon says it's wrong is correct. But honestly the canon has said what it says for a long freakin time now, why aren't people already doing that?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nah, that was not her. Daniel actually had people who knew what they were talking about helping him. His disdain for the word "flunkies" was all his own.

You are quite right, though, that the venom has gotten more vicious.

i suppose 'condensing' could come from the the fact that some dictionaries give 'awakening of love' as a definition, and if you're being literal it looks like you have missed out the first adjective (i still feel a bit wary of the 'awakening of love' definition for it, given that neither of the japanese dictionaries i have checked give that as a meaning)

Perhaps that's the reason. Even so, though, I can't imagine she'd have let me get away with "stirrings of a young love awakening" either. Hell, I'd have probably gotten raked over the coals for sounding "too Engrishy" then.

Japanese can get away with some redundancy in a way that English can't. This is why you translate based on meaning rather than syntax.

But I guess Cali's five months of dabbling in the language gives her more understanding of its complexities than those of us who have been doing it for years, who have taken classes on it at university, and who have more than a few fucking LTD-related lines to our names as translators in this fandom.

Oh, and Square Enix too, since -- as you said -- they recast entire sentences all the time. Wording, syntax and all.

 

[Morana]

What Quex said about supporting the ship you want even if canon says it's wrong is correct. But honestly the canon has said what it says for a long freakin time now, why aren't people already doing that?

Honestly, it boils down to this. No one is saying 'OMG, you should totally stop shipping Clerith because it is not canon!' Ship away. Who cares if it is not canon? There are many awesome fanon ships. But have some dignity and accept facts. CloTi side is supported by canon and it has been for a long time. One would think people have already accepted this.

 

[Ⓐaron]

.. wait did Zack cheat on Aerith? Serious question here, I don't remember that.

As far as I know, no, it's never established that he did, unless there is new Compilation material I'm not aware of that contradicts pretty strong implications made by earlier entries. As far as I'm aware none of Zack's interactions with other women besides Aerith ever went beyond flirting while he was still with her.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so this was brought to my attention:
http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/c...-of-shikisai-by-sug-japanese-lyric-below.html

That song uses the word awaku and it's translated as "fleetingly" (or at least that's how someone translated it)... idk looks like you could use "slightly" in there and be okay... " The piling up snow Shakes fleetingly And steals away warmth" or " The piling up snow Shakes slightly And steals away warmth"

idk, but that's could be an example of using it as fleeting.

But I guess Cali's five months of dabbling in the language gives her more understanding of its complexities than those of us who have been doing it for years, who have taken classes on it at university, and who have more than a few fucking LTD-related lines to our names as translators in this fandom.

Where is five months coming from BTW?... she told me she's been doing it since 07 O_o


EDIT
BTW Tres and Hito, you have an actual nice comment from here:
http://magitekelite.tumblr.com/post/40071734625/how-does-have-nothing-to-do-with-childhood

Just someone curious and not being cruel so maybe you should explain yourselves best you can and I'll relay it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Translations actually involve condensing and omitting because not every part of the language should have an equal counter part

liek

Watashi wa Danseru desu

I am Danseru

I DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE DESU

I purposely deleted です

therefore I'm wrong

Spoiler

(okay before people nitpick this, desu wasn't really omitted, I'm just sarcastic here.)

 

[Octo]

Yeah, look what happens when you directly translate everything: http://www.engrish.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/12/space-you-can-many-breads.jpg

http://www.engrish.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/12/visitors-of-child-people.jpg

Makes perfect sense. Seriously I don't know why you guys bother when Google Translate is just so......thorough!

長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。セフィロスとの最終決戦を目前にようやく、相手を求める気持ちを確かめ合えた。
ふたりで過ごした運命の一夜
セフィロスとの決戦を間近にひかえ、クラウドとふたりきりで飛空艇ハイウインドにとどまったティファ。これで最後かもしれない——万感の想いがこまった一夜は特別なものに 。

Tifa and Cloud for many years, had been biased in favor of each other.

In other words; Cloti's are biased FACT

I finally aeru feeling sure of finding a partner on the verge of the final battle with Sephiroth.

Doesn't say who, sure aint Cloud and Tifa though!

Two of us spent a night of destiny.

Could be anyone, Nomura and his zippers for all we know.

Tifa to the cusp of battle with Sephiroth, was limited to high wind airship alone with the cloud.

"Alone with THE cloud" Not Cloud the person, just some wayward cumulonimbus. "The" is very important here.

Maybe this is the last - night of many thoughts were troubled feelings to something special.

Again, nothing very specific.

CASE CLOSED

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Translations actually involve condensing and omitting because not every part of the language should have an equal counter part

liek

私わ ダンサラです

Watashi wa Danseru desu

I am Danseru

I DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE DESU

Technically, it would be the は (character for "ha," but pronounced "wa" when used as the subject identifier particle) that you "didn't" acknowledge in that sentence, as "desu" simply means "to be" (i.e. "is," "am," "are").

Also, the katakana for "seru" at the end of your name would be セル. What have you there is "sara."

Where is five months coming from BTW?... she told me she's been doing it since 07 O_o

In an earlier post, hito said that he read her say something indicating that she's only been at this for five months. My guess is he misread this post as being from September of last year instead of 2011:

http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/10445864074/imabi

Seriously, I have only read the intro and its helped me already! Go here!

[URL]http://www.imabijapaneselearningcenter.com/[/URL]

Granted, that's more than five months, but still considerably less than six years.

Also, what happened to this claim from January of 2010?:

The people who have translated this seem to think that Aerith never loved Cloud and they seem to think that because Tifa/Cloud's date was shown (as well as Aerith's) that Tifa's is canon and they are giving the part they misunderstood a different meaning.

I'm not calling them out on it either, its just I know who has translated this and they did it all wrong. They've given it a context that shouldn't have been there, ya know?

(Oh, by the way, I don't know the language that much. My sister does more than me and even a beginner knew they misunderstood the word I wasn't trying to anger any of those who believe in this, just saying. )

She was saying I was wrong about the "For the One I Love" page identifying anything romantic about Cloud and Tifa ("They've given it a context that shouldn't have been there ..."), but when asked by someone else to explain, she shriveled up like a penis in a blizzard, said she didn't understand Japanese well enough to explain, but that her sister -- who she identified as a beginner to the language at that time -- still knew enough to recognize that it was wrong.

She's been peddling this sister crap for years, with starting dates for her studies being rather fleeting.

By the way, I do now realize that "to match" wasn't the best way to word 合う in the English translation since hito later explained to me that it's describing the actions of Cloud and Tifa there ("together" then) rather than the nature of their feelings -- but when confronted in that thread, Cali retracted her claim that I was wrong about "to match" and instead said that I'd just assigned a context that didn't apply and "did it all wrong."

BTW Tres and Hito, you have an actual nice comment from here:
http://magitekelite.tumblr.com/post/40071734625/how-does-have-nothing-to-do-with-childhood

Just someone curious and not being cruel so maybe you should explain yourselves best you can and I'll relay it.

I see that you went ahead and reposted on your blog what I said here about the "condensing" business (no, I don't mind that you did that; thank you). Seeing as she insists on posting at me on her blog instead of replying here (even though she has admitted to reading what's being said here anyway), I'll respond to her comments here.

Okay, an honest question here — I’m not saying you’re wrong or accusing you of “lying”, but you’re going to have to explain for me where “Awaku” has ever been translated as “slight” before, because I’ve never seen “Awaku” translated that way personally ...

Which can only mean you've never bothered looking.

And no, I’m pretty sure a comma is never used alone (when not in a list or parenthetical)…so, it’s not the same thing.

Two adjectives separated by a comma in a grammatically valid sentence: "Your disingenuous, inaccurate claims make pandas sad."

Do I need an "and also"? Maybe a "ku"?

Work on your English before lecturing others on Japanese.

I don’t even understand where this shit about me condensing “awaku” and “osanai” comes from. “Awakening” is essentially my use of “awai” in the translation, since “koigokoro” is used at times to refer to that.

“Childhood awakening of love” conveys the same meaning as “young stirrings of love,” “stirrings of childhood love,” “stirrings of young love,” “transitional, juvenile love,” “adolescent beginnings of love” — or even “faint, young love.” Yes, even with that comma there.

I’m sorry, but where is “awai” you do realize it’s “awaku”/淡く in that sentence and not just “awai”, right?

"Awai" and "awaku" are the same goddamn term. Since you're the Japanese expert, you should know this. The "ku" is only conjugating the adjective in such a way as to say that there's another adjective that also applies to the word "awai" is modifying. Jesus fucking Christ, why aren't you acknowledging the ku?

I’d believe you Quex, but you’re over there still with those dudes saying “Fleeting isn’t there”/”Fleeting becomes childhood with “Koigokoro”, to this very moment.

Yeah, nobody has said this.

Wait, what? Where exactly has “Awai” ever been used as “Awakening”? Like, honest question…and they were questioning my translation of “Fleeting”, what the hell?

You're really not getting gist of the "puppy love," "redundancy," and "meaning vs. syntax" stuff, are you? Just stop, please.

But, dude, its not “淡い恋心” its “淡く幼い恋心が” there’s a big difference in being that there’s “awaku osanai etc. etc.” there not just straight to cutting it up to “awai koigokoro”.

Yeah, no. You demonstrate further and further how much you actually don't know about this language with each statement.

As far as the role of "awai"/"awaku" goes in the clause, the presence (or not) of 幼い makes no difference. Aren't you the one who keeps reminding us that the "ku" adds an "and also" meaning? They're two separate adjectives being applied to the same noun -- and would apply regardless of the presence of the other.

Examining the meaning of 淡い恋心 tells you the same information as examining 淡く幼い恋心. The 幼い only identifies this as being of or related to Cloud's childhood.

Again, why aren't you acknowledging the Divine Light of Ku?

Idk if you know or not but Cali and I have a history of squabbling with one another. So no, this isn’t the first time I’ve flipped out about something she’s done.

No, I don’t — not really — I tend stay in (the more crazy love debate)Bleach, Naruto, Vampire Diaries, The Last Airbender and Anime fandoms and Cali sticks to FF — we don’t really share the same likes, I’ll believe you but when I was on TNC you two acted like pals, maybe that’s just me though.

Then what's with all the FF stuff (a lot of it CloudxAerith stuff) you've blogged/reblogged over the past few weeks?:


http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/38215429813/you-came-even-though-youre-about-to-break
http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/38135492510/passacaria-final-fantasy-v-ix
http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/38663240573
http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/36912297301/589ish
http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/36913983024
http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/36722646852
http://earswithfoots.tumblr.com/post/36324599787

And why were all you "sisters" so passionate about CxA at The Northern Crater if you don't really share the same "likes"?

Maybe you should have listened to that polar bear.

And now I need to go take a shower, because I feel like an unclean Tumblr stalker.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Technically, it would be the は (character for "ha," but pronounced "wa" when used as the subject identifier particle) that you "didn't" acknowledge in that sentence, as "desu" simply means "to be" (i.e. "is," "am," "are").

Also, the katakana for "seru" at the end of your name would be セル. What have you there is "sara."

Sorry about that, the computer I'm now using can't show characters I'm just guessing if the converter got it right

Edit: BTW I just met another translator in tumblr from the Guilty Gear fandom, he knew me from DA and corrected me just like Tres. And he's totally neutral and clueless. Now I don't want to involve him so I'll just privately consult him over stuff.

 

[Strangelove]

Doing an inelegant phone post from college so sorry for lack of proper quotes and jumbledness.

In an earlier post, hito said that he read her say something indicating that she's only been at this for five months. My guess is he misread this post as being from September of last year instead of 2011:

I searched the Japanese tag on her blog and saw 'five months ago' on that post. I didn't bother screencapping anything. I think the layout is hard to read but I'm not going to make a big deal of this. But I'm sure that post has been edited since I saw it (but that's cloti lies for you).

whoever this is

I’m pretty sure a comma is never used alone (when not in a list or parenthetical)…so, it’s not the same thing.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure this is even serious at this point.

I’m sorry, but where is “awai” you do realize it’s “awaku”/淡く in that sentence and not just “awai”, right?

Conjugating an adjective radically changes it into another word entirely?

 

[Zealkin]

I think i lost a few brain cells, holy shit i can't even right now.

 

[Strangelove]

Okay so this was brought to my attention:
http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/c...-of-shikisai-by-sug-japanese-lyric-below.html

That song uses the word awaku and it's translated as "fleetingly" (or at least that's how someone translated it)... idk looks like you could use "slightly" in there and be okay... " The piling up snow Shakes fleetingly And steals away warmth" or " The piling up snow Shakes slightly And steals away warmth"

fan translation of a song? is that the best example, really?

http://www.animelyrics.com/jpop/utada/flavoroflife.htm

here is one that uses 'faintly'

 

[Ryushikaze]

To be honest, I'm not really sure where it comes from. If anyone knows of another Japanese-Japanese dictionary that would be cool, but those two on Yahoo are the only ones I know and other sites seem to use the same ones. If I had to guess I suppose something that's faint won't always last very long (thus disappears, hence fleeting) and that's where it's from. Several attempts to look up 'fleeting' in English-Japanese dictionaries hasn't so far shown me 淡い as a translation for it, unless I have missed it. This is why I didn't see that meaning applying here, and plus each time a reference to love has appeared in examples it is always translated as faint or similar.

Edit; posting it on tumblr, I was going to see if there was anything else to add and with tumblr once it's posted and reblogged it's stuck in its original form unless manually edited. I don't really mind if once there is nothing more to add it gets posted.

Also timeline, it's somewhere between 12th September 0008 and 21st January 0009 for the Lifestream scene, don't know if there is a more exact date than that.

Dec 9 08 and Jan 21 09, given the game officially starts Dec 9th.

Nah, that was not her. Daniel actually had people who knew what they were talking about helping him. His disdain for the word "flunkies" was all his own.

You are quite right, though, that the venom has gotten more vicious.



Perhaps that's the reason. Even so, though, I can't imagine she'd have let me get away with "stirrings of a young love awakening" either. Hell, I'd have probably gotten raked over the coals for sounding "too Engrishy" then.

Japanese can get away with some redundancy in a way that English can't. This is why you translate based on meaning rather than syntax.

But I guess Cali's five months of dabbling in the language gives her more understanding of its complexities than those of us who have been doing it for years, who have taken classes on it at university, and who have more than a few fucking LTD-related lines to our names as translators in this fandom.

Oh, and Square Enix too, since -- as you said -- they recast entire sentences all the time. Wording, syntax and all.

No they don't you son of a submariner! Only a spoony bard would make such a claim! I HATEHATEHATEHATE when people make those claims!
(And for bonus snark, that last one is from Dissidia. There's shittons of highly memorable examples of SE changing stuff to be better understood or more memorable to western audiences)

Okay so this was brought to my attention:
http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/c...-of-shikisai-by-sug-japanese-lyric-below.html

That song uses the word awaku and it's translated as "fleetingly" (or at least that's how someone translated it)... idk looks like you could use "slightly" in there and be okay... " The piling up snow Shakes fleetingly And steals away warmth" or " The piling up snow Shakes slightly And steals away warmth"

idk, but that's could be an example of using it as fleeting.


Where is five months coming from BTW?... she told me she's been doing it since 07 O_o

Where'd she say this and why are we just NOW hearing of this?

Oh, right, because it's actually Cali with her history of dupes, silly me.
Including a history of being banned from a Bleach forum for sockpuppetry.