Uhm. I don't get it. Just because I said 'belief' many times,
it automatically states that I am arguing based on JUST my belief? Have I worded myself in the wrong way? I guess I did.
First, I said that the statement was enough for me to believe in Cloud and Aerith. And it came from CoL:W.
Was I not clear in saying that, yes I believe in C/A because I saw facts for it and use it in my arguments?
You've been clear in saying you have seen facts and use them. What you have not done is present and analyze the facts to anywhere near the same level.
As for 'important' in COLW, what COLW says is that CLOUD was important to AERITH, not the reverse.
Can we talk about our arguments in general Ryu? Not just about that article? I was aiming at that in my comment.
This IS about our arguments in general. I used the example of the front page article to demonstrate how I employ context in my analysis of facts. The first thing I did when I saw the page in question way back when I did the translations was to ask Tres about a few of the other entries. When Tres translated the whole page, I appended a link to his translations because the context mattered. When I see something that says 'Tifa is important to Cloud' I look to see what else has been said, to understand a deeper meaning from the links between each data point.
Yeah, how does that differ from what I said? Because of the page title which says "love", the feelings being talked about is 'love'. Did I say otherwise? I just said that those may not be the only feelings they were feeling (if it was in another page).
Because the subject matter is love, that which is talked about is love. Not the title alone, but the subject of the entire page is about the expression of romantic love of people, with the small subsection in the lower right dedicated to nonromantic love.
What is special pleading?
Cited from wikipedia, but it's a good summary-
Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.
In this case, arguing that the FF7 Highwind entry is the exception to the entire point of discussion of the page without justification.
I'm getting a nosebleed from your words. Seriously, I should be holding a dictionary when I'm talking to you. :p
*checks the meaning of 'anathema'*
Here it is!
a·nath·e·maNoun/əˈnaTHəmə/
1. Something or someone that one vehemently dislikes.
2. A formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine.
So page title + canon couples discussions = romantic discussion for C/T as well. Yes, I get it now Ryu.
Again with the religious connection.. Hmm.. 
Yes, though it was meant in the somewhat less formal sense of 'unrelated or contrary to,' rather than 'denounced.'
Also, you're gonna find a lotta words have a religious connection. Tuesday has a religious connection.
Also, Page title and subject matter. The introduction to the page also sets the tone.
I don't really get how you get the self-defeat and audacity part. Comes from years of debating? Well, it's not really the same case for me.
I said it wasn't the official version? I think I said it's not 'canon'. Man, I'm such a scatterbrain. And short-term memory loss too I guess. LOL.
I'm not saying it against the HW entry. I'm saying it in defense of the date scene.
Yes, but your argument can also be made FOR the HW entry, which you also tried to argue as acanon just because it has a variant version.
Uhm, just a thought, if SE did intend Cloud and Tifa as canon, it would have been easy to make the date a default with Tifa, but it's with Aerith. Why? Well, maybe because she did promise to go out with him. And it's kind of where she tries to communicate her feelings to Cloud.
There are narrative reasons apart from the Love Triangle to want to emphasize Aerith to the player. Primarily to make her sudden and unglamorous death all the more shocking to said player, to emphasize the point that death- real death- is not heroic, it is tragic, often brutish, and meaningless. It's the same reason they have Cait Sith have his melodramatic 'remember me!' speech before being crushed and immediately replaced by another remote controlled robot.
Collectible cards? Oooh. I want one!
They are long out of print. Check Ebay.
I was saying that we already cleared the part where you got your files mixed up. But I'm not contesting the part where the HW scene is one of the most notable scenes in FF7.
I think I was talking about the deviation because I was defending my point that referencing it with the photo means that SE did want people to remember that there is one, where no confirmation of feelings happened.
But they want us to know that the confirmation happened a lot more. Like with Shadow in FF6. They want us to know he can die. They also want us to know he lived.
Maybe because its a scene that's gotten the most interest from gamers who are Cloti? You know, a marketing ploy?
Just a thought though.
Or because it really is just an important scene for the main characters, and a major turning point in the game and their relationship.
I can't really say something on Vincen'ts part. As all of you know, I haven't played the game. So what consequences happened?
Well, in the first place, Vincent joins the party. Optional. Unofficially canonized when he's in AC and DoC.
Secondly, finding Lucrecia's Cave. Also optional. We know it was found because Vincent knows where it is in DoC, and was surprised to learn of it in FF7. Thus, this event is unofficially canonized. It's also unoffically canonized by a second incident
Thirdly, the dialogue preceding the sister ray- it changes depending who is brought along. Most unofficial scripts have Cid and Tifa at this juncture along with Cloud. Vincent particularly, has special dialogue with Hojo. In Dirge, again, this dialogue is referenced, as is one of Vincent's limit breaks. So not only is Vincent's presence unofficially confirmed, but so is the acquisition and usage of a particular limit break which requires visiting Lucrecia's cave at least twice in order to acquire.
Again, none of these events have ever been officially 'DECLARED SO' but they must have occurred as we know that the results of these events came to pass.
Err. I think I already gave some in my last post. Please check?
You had not previously, however, which was my point.
Oh my gosh. Explaining one thing to you takes forever. LOL. Again. Our arguments are also based on 'context'. We see the facts, we study it, analyze its connection, then we use it to support our side. How can you get the "actively deny the context" part?
Because you just did with regards to the FTOIL page.
Uhm. That statement concerned Cloud's undying feelings which were different from Aerith's comrades. His guilt is not really an undying feeling, so it wasn't guilt.
How is guilt incapable of being undying? It had not faded with time, and was only through the intervention of others that it could be taken from him.
Heartbroken? His lines. Then Tifa mentions Cloud's heart being torn apart once again (meaning it has been torn apart before in regards to her death).
Again, Tifa was also heartbroken about Aerith's death.
Maybe he knows he can't rush going to the "Promised Land". And he did say he thinks he can meet her there, which was an answer from the Planet (meaning that he was asking for it :p).
Actually, no, it means that was the answer the planet gave to the question 'The Hell is going to happen to us when Holy goes off? Are we going to die too?' And the answer is 'Don't worry, death's not the end.'
Also, Tifa's the one who says they SHOULD go meet her there. Cloud tells Tifa 'it can be done' and Tifa says 'let us do it.' And again, they both meet Aerith a few minutes later.
That wasn't gonna stop him from living on. And we do see why Cloud moves in with Tifa. They had built the place together, I think Barret helped too? Ugh. I seriously need to read CoT again.
)
But Cloud decided to be together with Tifa came long before the 7th Heaven mk 2 was built. He thought he could start his life anew successfully with Tifa by his side where he had previously failed, and the way he had Tifa was different from how he had her before. Saying this made him blush. They then proceded to form a family where she's the mother and she sees him as the father of the kids they take care of.
Not just people, Aerith herself. And we're talking about the English dialogue. That's how it was translated so that's how it must have meant in Japanese as well.
This Guy are Sick says that argument doesn't hold water.
My point is that Cloud does not specify who he's talking about. Even a 'her' in Japanese. He also doesn't specify 'I.' This is because Japanese does not require pronouns in the same manner English does. Now, from context, yes, Aerith is the most likely person to go meet in the lifestream, but nothing in the Japanese indicates Cloud was speaking soley for himself. Remember, he says these things out loud. The UO says he and Tifa talk about this and plan to go meet someone in the promised land. Cloud is informing Tifa of these things. Why? Because she would want to meet Aerith at the end, too, and both he and she are facing their imminent demise, but really don't want to die. So Cloud tells Tifa that he learned from the planet that death is not the end and that someone (Aerith in context, but again, never specified) can be met in the lifestream, or so he thinks. Tifa smiles at this and says they should go together.
And Tifa's line? Idk. To me, it was her inviting herself to go meet the certain
her with Cloud.
And not her reacting positively at the prospect of meeting her good friend again after being told it's possible to do so? Do you really think so poorly of Cloud that he would exclude Tifa from meeting her friend again? And so poorly of Tifa to think she'd think she was invited if she wasn't?
How do they meet Aerith at the end of FF7? For the love of all that is ,
how? 
She appeared. She smiled. Everyone on the Highwind saw it.
Just because I haven't played the 'damn' game doesn't mean that my argument cannot be taken seriously or without
It DOES mean you are not understanding the full picture, though. You're missing a considerable portion of the experience and are getting a seriously skewed picture as a result. You are ill equipped. Would you argue a book without reading it? Or a movie without seeing it?
I shall I shall.
What I meant was the part where he said that my belief is already my fact. No. My belief is SUPPORTED by my fact.
Big difference, I should say.
Did I really? Oh well, my bad bro. To answer your question, which I can't even quite remember now, it would sound romantic. Talking about a person's smile, laughter.. and all that. Yes, it would. The lines contained heavy emotion.
At least you are consistent here, then.
However...
CHILL OUT BRO! Sheesh. You're too caught up in this debate.
I got the answer up there, yo. :p
It's not that I'm caught up in the debate, it's that you were evading questions.
Err... you have a pretty deep scar there?
No. I have amusing stories of crazy people, and quite a lot of insults hurled my way. I remember them, but I am not scarred by them.
If he was nodding to reassure himself, then there is that slight doubt. Maybe because of the sudden realizations from his memories. Poor Cloud. His head might have been aching.
Regardless, the conclusion is the same. Whether reassuring or simply concurring, he was affirming that he heard Tifa's heart as she heard his.
Let me get back to you on that. My head's now spinning from your long post. :p
Fair enough.
When does he say those lines? Immediately after the death, and with the cause of death right behind him? If not, then the situation differs slightly and the context of the scene changes with it as well.
He said them years after Yorick's demise. Surely that would indicate the romance was greater, would it not? With Sephiroth there, Cloud's words take on less romance and more 'You're a sick fuck, y'know that?' but Hamlet can casually remember to himself and Yorick just how fond he was of Yorick despite the length of time it had been since he'd been alive.
But this was regarding Cloud's reactions to Aerith's death, you know, the eyes, etc... How could controlling Cloud after Aerith was already dead contribute to what he wanted?
But it seems to me that what he wanted has become his obsession. LOLZ.
So again, how does controlling Cloud right after Aerith dies and while he holds her dead body, contribute to what he wanted?
Because only by asserting his power will he be able to take control of Cloud. He keeps the pressure on to try and find an inroad to control Cloud, and inroad he only finds later by shaking Cloud's faith that he's real by having Tifa unveil that Cloud was not -as far as she knew- at Nibelheim.
You ask how continuing to assert power helps Sephiroth control Cloud. I ask, how does letting the pressure up do anything but give up? Sephiroth doesn't want Cloud feeling anger, sadness, or anything but 'I'm a fake, a puppet, a nobody'
Uhm, Zack left before Aerith did. Technically, they didn't leave *together*.
And, you're talking about li'l ol' Buster Sword right? How does is say that Aerith and Zack can still be a "couple" or a "pair"? Whoever moved the Buster there, most probably Cloud, may have done that as a one-for-two memorial for both Aerith and Zack. How does that say that it's a Zerith fact? The person who put Buster there was a fan of Zerith? Nah. Doesn't make sense.
They left together. That Zack exited the doorway a few seconds before Aerith doesn't change the fact that he waited for her approach to begin leaving so he could leave with her.
As for moving Buster to the church, why bring the symbol of your dead friend to the place that is the symbol of your dead love? Especially when said dead friend is said dead love's first love who tragically never returned to her despite all he tried?
I mean, there's romantically awkward, and then there's THAT.
And, I was saying that in reference to AC/ACC. If I had really played the game, knowing that Aerith was once with Zack, who was considered to be her first love, then watched AC/C, I would still say the same. I didn't see Aerith looking at Zack when they left. She was just walking straight to the light, no aversions to Zack whatsoever.
Yes, no aversion to Zack at all.
a·ver·sion [uh-vur-zhuhn, -shuhn] noun
1. a strong feeling of dislike, opposition, repugnance, or antipathy (usually followed by to ): a strong aversion to snakes and spiders.
2. a cause or object of dislike; person or thing that causes antipathy: His pet aversion is guests who are always late.
3. Obsolete. the act of averting; a turning away or preventing.
Heck, Zack didn't even wait for Aerith to leave first before he did. That doesn't look like a 'romantic' action for me. And, still, for the Buster being in Aerith's Church, I've said it above.
Zack waited until Aerith was nearly dead on to his position to head out, actually.
And when did you *really really* pay attention to Zerith in the game? The *most used* instances in debates where Zack was mentioned in the game (with relation to Aerith) was when Aerith was telling Cloud he was her first love. Then we get AC and CC, a PREquel game which happened *before* the FF7 game itself.
But which still emphasizes Zerith, and makes a point of setting it so that many of the scenes seen as most Clerith are imitations of those that are actually Zerith, including Aerith's offer of one date as payment, and noting that she falls for Cloud because of feelings for Zack.
Yeah, they weren't feelings of jealousy. Just "peevish feelings" or feelings that could make a friend have a "complex expression" on her face.
Btw, cherishing a person does not automatically mean that there will never be times when you'll feel emotions other than love/friendship.
You're trying to conflate two COMPLETELY different periods of time two years apart.
Tifa is Peevish in the ShinRa tower. This is unrelated to her complicated feelings about Aerith in the rest of the game, and her complicated expression two years later.
Incidentally, You've left out an ENTIRE PARAGRAPH.
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
Her feelings are complicated because her dear friend is also unfortunately the cause of Cloud's self condemnation.
How did Tifa verify those again? Ah yes, She verified it from her point of view of the memories. Cloud remembered his part, Tifa confirmed it from what she remembered too, well, it seemed like they were both confirming then.
No, because Cloud can't confirm, not being the independant observer in whom Cloud trusts.
That is exactly why I say that other interactions that could have happened are now assumptions. It's because... the well scene started the "childhood" friendship. Now, Tifa would either cut short hanging out with her old friends to be able to keep seeing Cloud, who wasn't much of a socialite. Count the time between winter-spring, that would be like... 3 months at most? Then out of those 3 months, we'd have to consider the days where Tifa met with her friends, then with Cloud. Or should we just assume that Cloud became friends with Tifa's friends all together?
Up to six. Maybe a bit more. Things were getting chilly. Start of fall to beginning of spring.
What you propose is also a false dichotomy. Tifa can spend time alone with Cloud WITHOUT having to leave her old friends entirely in the cold.
If you've ever gone on a date with someone, it's what you're doing. Spending time with one person but not excluding others.
So tell me then, why was being in Tifa's room an important memory for Cloud?
Does it matter why, if it was?
And no, it wasn't to let go of Aerith's memory itself.
Ah! Now we get into the rub of the matter. In the English, yes it is. They have to let go of the memory. You argue below and above that we must use the English version. Why not here?
This says that Aerith was stuck and couldn't return to the lifestream. So they were referring to freeing Aerith from whatever was stopping her. Not her memory.
No, it says to free her, they most let go of her memory.
For the record, I do quite realize that's not what this is actually saying, but you're going to have to outside the English version to find what that is. This is my point. There are mistakes in the English version, as any guy who are sick would say "off course!" to.
Uhm, no. When you ask a person, "You see?" It's either reinforcing what you're saying or slapping the obvious fact right in their face. It's like saying, "I told you so," in a softer tone. And you keep saying that "things will be all right" when in the English translation she says it in the present tense: "Everything's all right". Why do you do that?
I keep saying that because in the Japanese, it's all a single question, and it's not asking if Cloud sees or not. It's asking if he's okay/ going to be okay. It's inquiry, not affirmation.
For example..
"He didn't hold her hand. Let's watch it again."
*watches again*
"You see? They didn't hold hands."
It's short yet effective. :p
Not yet done, Ryu.
But again, you're trying to assert the English translation version which must make concessions to the lip flaps and over the prime source language and subtitles.
Literary historians and Otaku both wonder why you'd take a translation over a prime source when discussing the meaning of a scene or bit of dialogue.
And I would counter that I did my own clarification of what I've read. There are parts which I don't understand with regards to essays, so I try looking for other facts to support it. If I find none, I drop it.
And what research would you have me do that has not been done and tackled elsewhere?
Play, or at least watch as much of the games as you can. They are visual media, presentation is important. Like I said above, you wouldn't comment on a movie without watching it, would you?
It's about DoC, is it? Take this in mind. DoC, is more concerned with Vincent's life. AC was concerned with Cloud's life. Seeing the subject of said events, SE made it clear to whom Aerith's appearance should be emphasized.
But Aerith didn't intervene simply because Cloud was in trouble. In either case. She intervened because THE PLANET was in trouble, which in the case of AC, included helping Cloud so he could tackle the problem threatening the world- Sephypoo. Why, then, a year later, would Aerith neglect to lend her assistance when the planet is in arguably even more dire circumstances?
And seeing as how you pointed out that Great Gospel was already Aerith's spell in Disc1, can you think of another of her spells which could counter Omega?
Yes, I can. Because any of her spells could have been used to supercharge Vincent in his fight with Omega. She could have commanded the lifestream to ignore the artificial crisis, or avoid the Midgar plants to avoid aiding Omega. Three years prior, the lifestream surged forth to aid Holy because she said so. But during DoC, nothing. Not a peep.
Nothing suggests Aerith came back. You assert she can. You need to validate that assertion.
Sometimes, the shortest of moments holds the strongest of content.
No. I did not even say where I saw the 'longing' Cloud felt. It's when Cloud tried to turn around to look at Aerith, to see her face again. I took it as him longing to see her again.
But he wasn't longing to see her, he was perplexed and confused at what she had said. She confused him by asking who Cloud needed forgiveness from. Again, forgiveness and confusion are the emotions involved. He turns around in reaction to what is said.
It's done now, Ryu.
I had started on replying already and was hoping I could finish it in time, but I couldn't so there.
And so there in response.
