The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Vendel]

Rose does get married in "Titanic" after Jack's death. But she also "never lets go," just as she promised. It's perfectly possible to do both.

Oh, and spoiler alert, I guess.

The boat sinks.


Oh and if Rose were more like what the Cleriths want Cloud to be then she would have moved in with a guy and even raised a couple of kids with him. Not hers of course. One of them probably has a real mom who is away on business most of the time. But never a real relationship. She is just using him for food and shelter while she waits to reunite with Jack.

 

[eleamaya]

Jack/Rose is more similar to Zack/Aerith to me. Let Rose and Aerith move on and find their new love (though Rose took Jack's surname and whatever Aerith brought Zack's memory in ribbon, pink dress, and selling flower), but at ending we could see with whom the girls are seen together in "afterlife".

 

[Dashell]

okay so I think I finally figured out how I want to word my response. I know this will be picked apart and what not, but feh, I guess I should expect that here.



When I talk about how Aerith can get feelings and what not out of Cloud in a away that Tifa can't... I'm talking, first of all, about her special ability. She's able to see through Cloud and see what he's feeling and thinking. Think back to their date, she knew something was wrong with Cloud even though she barely knew him.

Tifa ALSO knew something was wrong with Cloud, but that's because she knew him and knew he was acting off.

Tifa understands Cloud the most because she knows him the best, and she's taken the time to try to understand him. She literally walked through his mind, feelings and memories. However, there are still moments when he confuses her. He might act strange, or do things like leave without notice or refuse to rescue his captured children. When Cloud did this, Tifa didn't quite know what was going on or how to react. At first she tried to be calm about it, but eventually she blew up at him, which is, IMO exactly what he needed. I won't deny that. I've often said I thought she went EASY on him.

As for how Aerith dealt with it... well I don't think she really got the chance. She spoke to him once when he was on his motorcycle, but Tifa had already taken care of it by then. I have no idea if she would have done it better, but I'm sure she would have dealt with it differently.

Aerith and Cloud had a great chemistry going. They only knew each other for a short time, but they really built up a great relationship. A relationship that at that time in the game, Cloud didn't share with anyone else. And I think that's important and that makes it very special.


So hopefully that explains where my previous post was coming from... it probably won't and I probably said something stupid again. But I'm in NO WAY trying to downplay Tifa, I'm just saying Aerith deserves a bit of credit too, if nothing else, for her ability to see though and get a glimpse of the real Cloud.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Eh, personally, I don't give her much credit for that. She was born with a special ability to read people. To me, that's (ironically) not as special as knowing someone the hard way. She'd have picked up on something being off with anyone, so that doesn't really relate to the bond she had with Cloud, nor did it offer her any greater clarity about exactly what was off with him.

As far as it goes, she only knew that he was behaving like Zack because she had actually known Zack.

As for Tifa, she certainly was confused when Cloud left. She wasn't confused by his refusal to chase after the kids, though. She knew exactly what that was about (fear of failing someone again), and called him on it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Come to think of it, strip away all materials except the OG, I will really find it hard to establish CA as a romantic relationship. If we work on a premise that there is no canon optional event like dialogue choices, the date and the HW scene, Tifa is still left with the whole Lifestream sequence and the HW scene. HA or LA it has them in a private moment. Aerith is only left with Cloud's agony over her death an she's dead. The party mourns with Cloud too. And after Aerith died, did Cloud talk about her with romantic undertones? Right after she died, Cloud talked about his tendency to get controlled by Sephy and his Aerith is our nakama speeches aren't romantic at all.

That's why I also think taking away MWTTP and KS is a huge loss to the Clerith ship in worse ways than taking away Case of Tifa. Without MWTTP it's hard to establish that Aerith sensed the real Cloud in a premise that no date is canon.

Again, I think Cloud and Aerith had a strong bond in that short time but as a romantic couple in the degree where the man "obsesses to find her" just.... no.

 

[Roger]

So hopefully that explains where my previous post was coming from... it probably won't and I probably said something stupid again. But I'm in NO WAY trying to downplay Tifa, I'm just saying Aerith deserves a bit of credit too, if nothing else, for her ability to see though and get a glimpse of the real Cloud.

I think Aerith deserves a great deal of credit, but the fact remains that she died before the real Cloud surfaces. I don't particularly like the idea that "oh, but his real self showed itself during his conversations with her", that's kinda cheapening Cloud's problems just so he can have more of a connection with Aerith.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I'm just saying Aerith deserves a bit of credit too, if nothing else, for her ability to see though and get a glimpse of the real Cloud.

I think it's unfair to give her credit for that when she was born with that ability. Being able to speak to the Planet, being a Cetra, being able to be loved by those who surround her. It's natural for her. She knew Cloud wasn't real!Cloud the same way she knew about Elmyra's dead husband. Tifa had to deal with the confusion that her memory!Cloud and disc1!Cloud didn't match. If anything, we should give Tifa credit for even realizing it without any special powers.

It's like giving credit to a man for getting higher wages simply because he's a man. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

As far as it goes, she only knew that he was behaving like Zack because she had actually known Zack.

This too. It makes Clerith seem Zerith, if you think about it.

It makes everything seem Clack too.

PS: I don't deny that Aerith did a lot of things she deserves credit for (dying for the Planet gives her huge ones right there), but being able to see through and know Cloud isn't real!Cloud isn't one them, in my opinion.

 

[Octo]

Also, Cid and Barret noticed Cloud was whacko a few times too

 

[Dashell]

really? We can't give people credit for something they were born with?..


oh... kay then...

If anything, we should give Tifa credit for even realizing it without any special powers.

I already said I'm not downplaying Tifa... come on...

It's like giving credit to a man for getting higher wages simply because he's a man. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

No it's like giving someone who was born with a natural artistic ability credit for making an amazing portrait.

 

[I Am Not Me]

really? We can't give people credit for something they were born with?..


oh... kay then...


I already said I'm not downplaying Tifa... come on...


No it's like giving someone who was born with a natural artistic ability credit for making an amazing portrait.

There's a difference.

Someone with artistic ability making an amazing portrait getting credit is fine because they made something with their own effort. The painting didn't just appear by itself. They made it. They worked for it.

A man getting higher wages and getting credit because he was born a man is not fine because he didn't work to become a man, did he? He was born a man. You're basically giving credit to him being a man. There wasn't any effort in it.

Did Aerith work for the knowledge she got with her abilities? No. It just comes to her. There doesn't have to be effort on her part. The point is she doesn't have to try. The bond she forms with Cloud was something she didn't put effort into, we all know it happened naturally. It was that easy for her. I can give her credit for eventually seeing past the Zack she saw to want to meet real!Cloud, but not about knowing stuff she gets from being a Cetra.

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore but I hope you get my point. If I didn't make sense just address so maybe I can answer tomorrow if I have time. I really need to sleep. It's 3:30 am.


And I know you said you weren't downplaying Tifa. That's why I didn't nitpick your post, because I agreed with most of it.

 

[Elisa Maza]

really? We can't give people credit for something they were born with?..


oh... kay then...

Assuming that with "credit" you mean any form of "praise"... (if you don't, disregard my post)

Going off topic for a while, but this is important for me.

Spoiler

No, we can't.

Say someone was born very smart. It's in their genes. They get a perfect score in a test. They did it with little effort, because their intelligence allows them to.

Let's see someone who has a mental malfunction. They were born with it. Let's say autism. They manage to get half a score in the same test, while one would expect nothing from them, exactly because they were born with it. But, they managed to get that far through struggle, lots of disappointments and failures.

Go ahead and tell me who deserves "credit". The one who has the ability from birth, or the one who fought tooth and nail to get it?

A thousand apologies if I sound like an oversensitive dolt, but this hit a little too close to home for me.

And about the chemistry among characters...

Cloud and Aerith had the chemistry that would leave with time and issues surfacing during said time. "Oh, why can't you be like this, Cloud?" (to paraphrase) Aerith said that. The exact moment escapes me, but she did. Bite me, I don't believe they'd endure things together. Aerith was flowers, pink and laughter covering a mother's death, an unresolved relationship that left her hanging and a hated linage. She was deep under a pretty mask.

We saw Cloud and Tifa having a TON of issues both as individuals AND together (BECAUSE they have them as individuals) and still being together, because they WANT to be together.

From a writing standpoint (and I'm not defending the shitty writing of the Compilation in the slightest, but I have to give props where they're due), what do the writers tell the audience presenting a couple like Cloud and Tifa BUT a statement of "achievement through struggle, shit happens and we have to work together to fix them as best as we could"?

 

[Vendel]

Also, Cid and Barret noticed Cloud was whacko a few times too

Yeah this is why I don't give much credit to Aerith's special feels powers. Anyone could tell Cloud was messed up if they spent enough time with him. We give Tifa credit because she knew right away something was wrong with him.


Also about Tifa being confused why Cloud left? Yes she was confused that he left without a word. Especially after Cloud had finally seemed to come around from his recent funk. That is until that moment in AC when she sees his geostigma bandage. She puts it together rather quickly from there.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Ok what now. Aerith never did or said anything of the sort in trying to make Cloud do things like/be like somebody else, unless "Walk more nicely ... like this Miss Cloud!" is it Other than that though I can't find anything of the sort like "Oh, why can't you be like this, Cloud?" in the script

Also people with autism/aspergers/downs/etc can be very smart, I've known some and they are cleverer than I am.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I can't think of a time Aerith asked Cloud to be something he isn't. She genuinely wanted to get to know him. I still don't think she deserves props for doing what anyone with her lineage could have done, though. If a white dude successfully voted in 1860, we wouldn't praise that.

Maybe I would feel more inclined to if her ability helped straighten him out in the end, but that isn't the case (unless we're counting Maiden, where Aerith places Tifa in Cloud's mind). Even then, that's praise for the ability more than anything.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To take this back to the painter analogy, Aerith's ability to twig to Cloud being a bit off kilter is more akin to someone with a built in camera and photo printer. The images are perfect, and the skill is technically amazing, but it's different from the person who through effort has learned to nearly perfectly replicate reality through inks and pigments.

Or for the reason it's less impressive for Professor X to deduce the identity of a murderer than Sherlock Holmes.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Best analogies in this thread's history right there.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Aeris would have to be really fucking stupid not to pick up that something is terribly wrong with Cloud. Boy's handing over weapons of mass destruction to the enemy and having seizures and not remembering shit.

It's not rocket science. Why does she need a medal?

 

[Dashell]

Aerith deserve credit for what she USED her ability for. Yes, I agree just being able to do something doesn't mean you get credit, but if you do something with your ability that deserves credit well... then yeah.

and before you say "LOL WHATD SHE DO?"
Help saved the world

And before you say, "SO DID EVERYONE ELSE!"
No shit

She also was able to see Cloud wasn't Cloud and thus was able to get a good chemistry going between them

And there's a difference between "Cloud is fucked up" and "This isn't the real Cloud"... Aerith knew that Cloud wasn't really Cloud, it's why she wanted to meet him. Everyone else besides Tifa just thought Cloud was really fucked in the head.

 

[Roger]

Well her talk about meeting the real Cloud and how much alike he and Zack is happened before the whole giving the Black Materia and renovating Aeriths face at the temple. And i think she confronted Cloud about it a little better then Barret and Tifa did but Barret isn't a people person, and Aerith is the only one who knew Zack and while Tifa is meanwhile the only one that knew Cloud, Tifa probably thought it was her that had the problem rather then Cloud.

I mean, Cloud knew everything Zack knew, including his conversations with Tifa, his being the sole witness to Sephiroth's descent into insanity and discovering his origin at Nibelheim (which, definitely happened), the contents of Tifa's bedroom, conversations with his mom. And Tifa was the one that ended that incident grieviously injured and woke up on the other side of the Planet with no clue how she got there.

The info Aerith had helped her, the info only Tifa had could only make her think she was the one that had hid her head really really hard (which she did).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith deserve credit for what she USED her ability for. Yes, I agree just being able to do something doesn't mean you get credit, but if you do something with your ability that deserves credit well... then yeah.

and before you say "LOL WHATD SHE DO?"
Help saved the world

I swear I'm not trying to be difficult, but in what way did her insight into Cloud's issues help save the world? If we do count Maiden, I guess my question is already answered, but if we aren't, then the ability really only helped her make peace with the whole Zack thing.

Which still has narrative value, don't get me wrong. Just isn't earth shattering (or saving).

Part of the tragedy of Aerith is that she knew stuff was wrong with Cloud thanks to her power, but never got to meet him as he really is when she was still alive. I really don't think the ability contributed much beyond the personal level with her.

EDIT: Come to think of it, that's got to be one of the reasons VII's characters resonate so powerfully even now. The main plot is almost a backdrop to all the personal shit they have going on.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Aeris didn't ask Cloud to be something he's wasn't, but she did respond positively to what we've come to know as unCloud-like behavior. Whereas Tifa came off as more apprehensive and confused by it. For example, Tifa's wtfing when you say something like "next to you who wouldn't sleep well". Aeris isn't to blame here, as I think she was responding to qualities that would have been closer to Zack.

The 10th anniversary interview is an interesting read, which kinda talks about Cloud showing off and being all cool and forward: http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...o-13-of-the-ffvii-10th-anniversary-ultimania/

 

[Dashell]

I swear I'm not trying to be difficult, but in what way did her insight into Cloud's issues help save the world

Well I do count Maiden, but never mind, I don't feel like having to explain why Aerith deserves some credit for what she did with Cloud anymore. All I'm goin to say is Cloud was distant and cold to most people, cept for Tifa really... he wouldn't have followed just ANYONE or agreed to be a bodyguard to just ANYONE. And that lead him on his path so...

 

[Vendel]

Well I do count Maiden, but never mind, I don't feel like having to explain why Aerith deserves some credit for what she did with Cloud anymore.

Well Q that one explanation you gave came off to more than one of us as "Aerith understands and connects better with Cloud than Tifa".

And in a followup you state this.

Aerith and Cloud had a great chemistry going. They only knew each other for a short time, but they really built up a great relationship. A relationship that at that time in the game, Cloud didn't share with anyone else. And I think that's important and that makes it very special.

Maybe you wouldn't have to keep trying to explain your position if it didn't come across as wishful thinking?

All I'm goin to say is Cloud was distant and cold to most people, cept for Tifa really... he wouldn't have followed just ANYONE or agreed to be a bodyguard to just ANYONE. And that lead him on his path so...

If you are saying Cloud wouldn't help just ANYONE then what makes her SOMEONE he would help?

Did he want to stick his dick in her? Was it pure soul aching love at first sight? Or did she use her Cetra powers to make an instant connection with him?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

May as well add my two cents here too.

Here's the thing I'm not really seeing in what Q is claiming--Aerith seeing that Cloud wasn't himself. Not until he pounds the shit out of her does she sense something is 'wrong' with him--even with her Cetra abilities.

On their date she says "It used to bug me how you looked exactly the same, same walk, same attitude" <--I'm paraphrasing-->. But then she goes on to say, "but there's more than that. There are pieces that don't quite match up. You're different, I'm different, things are different. I'd like to get to know about that side of you." This is not "Cloud is not acting himself" because she doesn't KNOW Cloud. She doesn't know that his behavior isn't his own. All she knows is that there is more to him than she initially thought and she'd like to get to know that side of him. That's all. It's not magical or special in any way other than wanting to and accepting that he's not the person she thought he was, but that was okay, because maybe she would like the person he actually was too, and she wanted to find out. It's sweet and it's sad because she never really does. But in game, she doesn't figure out "Holy crap this guy is messed up" until he starts seizing and twitching and trying to punch a hole in her head.

So, yes, she had a friendship with him, and an attraction, but honestly, she didn't do anything really to help Cloud find himself in game. (Neither did Tifa until the Lifestream) Honestly, Cloud doesn't get enough credit for fighting back and fixing himself, imo.

 

[Sikozu]

I thought there were a few(three or four different ones)Ultimania passages where it says Aerith became aware that the Cloud she knew was not the real one because of her Cetra abilities. One uses the "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" quotes from her date at GS to demonstrate that.

Cloud didn't really start crumbling until they visit the Temple of the Ancients, so what led Aerith to becoming aware that he wasn't his true self were things more subtle than Cloud's "ha ha ha... Call Meteor" and Cloud's fists pummeling her.