The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[OneWingedDemon]

I will, however, say that 'can bring out his emotions while Tifa is confused' is utter pillock.

Let me add on to this:

Tifa is not "confused". She is frustrated. Tifa knows Cloud and as such knows how to get him to deal with issues -- guide him and let him come to them on his own. She knows Cloud need to face this alone, it's because she knows him that she pulls everyone back when Cloud is fighting Kadaj/Sephiroth. The staff have specifically commented on this, discussing Tifa's approach and how it's what he needs.

FFS, what did Aeris do in AC beyond tell him she doesn't blame him and heal him along with all of Edge? How was her approach so radically different and more effective? I call bullshit on all of that.

I think Aerith has a different way of dealing with those.

Which are....? What exactly?
It seems to me that you are latching on to the fact that Aeris is one fo the few who can alleviate Cloud's guilt. But that's because she and Zack are the ones Cloud thinks he fucked over. Telling him she never blamed him and he's being silly for thinking so isn't taking a different approach.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm still calling it: Aerith's date is canon. Maybe one can reason that at least all the gondola rides took place (I don't see it myself), but Aerith's date definitely happened.

Ummm it seems that your explanation is the thing I'm just waiting for. Alright, I now kinda think Aerith's date is canon too but I still I think the gondola rides can all happen.

Actually this will all help my HAHW is canon agenda, as almost every reference to the date makes a reference to the HAHW scene. Now waiting for Tifa's Theatrhythm lines :3

As for other disputable material, I still think Kaitai Shinsho was never really strict canon material, and now decanonized by Crisis Core. As for MWTTP, I have no real opinion of it- eitherway it being canon doesn't really affect my views on anything.n

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As for other disputable material, I still think Kaitai Shinsho was never really strict canon material, and now decanonized by Crisis Core. As for MWTTP, I have real opinion of it- eitherway it being canon doesn't really affect my views on anything.

Agreed. I'd like to think of it as canon, though -- I seem to be one of the few who really liked Maiden.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Agreed. I'd like to think of it as canon, though -- I seem to be one of the few who really liked Maiden.

I like some aspects of Maiden, especially the part where Aerith dies and all her musing about life, about the people she wanted to meet, about the planet and stuff.

Maiden also have Aerith shipping Cloti and getting jealous that Tifa's going to be with Cloud.

As a Zerith, of course I wanted a more emotional reunion between Zack and Aerith, but somehow Maiden can be satisfying in some aspects. The line "I love him more than my first love" isn't really a torpedo to Zerith. The fact that Aerith continues to compare him to Zack shows that she'll still thinking of him and trying to reaffirm her moving on. And that I can go around this and say Aerith love Cloud more in the present rather than comparing it with her feelings for Zack in its highest.

What I dislike about Maiden is that it removes the mystery of Aerith when she died and presents her like as somewhat like a comforter to other spirits who died. IMO that's already "too much." I also felt that some parts where she tells her love for Cloud a bit sappy... I still hold the headcanon they didn't really go that far.

On the bright side again, Maiden shows that its not only Aerith that made the Lifestream act, but a lot of dead people are involved.

 

[Kittie]

Regarding Maiden, is it still considered canon or did Case of the Lifestream replace it? Or is SE ignoring its existence entirely now? I've seen some debate going back and forth regarding its canonicity.

Maiden also have Aerith shipping Cloti and getting jealous that Tifa's going to be with Cloud.On the bright side again, Maiden shows that its not only Aerith that made the Lifestream act, but a lot of dead people are involved.

And, yes, I also noticed that! In a way, it sort of ties in with the original ending of AC, with that brief cutscene of Aerith looking lonely but smiling when Cloud passes by. I understand Cloud is unaware of her being there, since it mentions that's it's simply vestiges of Aerith that are "nothing with any presence in reality." But, still, in a way, it appears that she conceded that Cloud is continuing to live his life with someone other than her. I also recall in the last part of Case of the Lifestream that Aerith's feelings for Cloud come back to her vividly, but she never once mentions them to him in ACC. Also with ACC, I noticed that her cutscene is taken out at the end credits, but it really makes me wonder if replacing that scene also replaces Maiden in a way. It's just something I've been thinking about lately with the novellas.

Any thoughts?

 

[Vendel]

Also with ACC, I noticed that her cutscene is taken out at the end credits, but it really makes me wonder if replacing that scene also replaces Maiden in a way. It's just something I've been thinking about lately with the novellas.

Any thoughts?

I always joked that Aerith getting removed from the flower field was a reaction to certain segments of the fandom saying she was meeting someone there.

 

[Kittie]

I always joked that Aerith getting removed from the flower field was a reaction to certain segments of the fandom saying she was meeting someone there.

Taking Aerith out of the credits did throw that particular argument out, even though the script already says what it does in regards to it. The revised ending certainly ties in with elements of Crisis Core, which was beautifully done, and was a real tribute to both Zack and Aerith. There is no doubt in my mind that Crisis Core did have a lot to do with the revised ending.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Regarding Maiden, is it still considered canon or did Case of the Lifestream replace it? Or is SE ignoring its existence entirely now? I've seen some debate going back and forth regarding its canonicity.

This site has a long essay explaining why its not canon, though you're still free to disagree. Here it is: http://thelifestream.net/canon-of-ffvii/

And, yes, I also noticed that! In a way, it sort of ties in with the original ending of AC, with that brief cutscene of Aerith looking lonely but smiling when Cloud passes by. I understand Cloud is unaware of her being there, since it mentions that's it's simply vestiges of Aerith that are "nothing with any presence in reality." But, still, in a way, it appears that she conceded that Cloud is continuing to live his life with someone other than her. I also recall in the last part of Case of the Lifestream that Aerith's feelings for Cloud come back to her vividly, but she never once mentions them to him in ACC. Also with ACC, I noticed that her cutscene is taken out at the end credits, but it really makes me wonder if replacing that scene also replaces Maiden in a way. It's just something I've been thinking about lately with the novellas.
Any thoughts?

My take on that scene is sad as well, it's like Aerith watching over him but again, she's departed. I do agree that the staff took the scene out because they don't like people saying that Cloud is meeting Aerith there. I love Aerith at the credits but I think the removal was deliberate in saying, "no that's not what happened" and even took time to add Zerith and Cloti in ACC.

I still don't think they were showing Zerith is a relationship that will resume in a romantic sense in the lifestream but I see SE wanting to show how Zack and Aerith are equally important to Cloud. Also, both Zack and Aerith are referred to as a set in most materials as the people he had lost.

 

[Kittie]

My take on that scene is sad as well, it's like Aerith watching over him but again, she's departed. I do agree that the staff took the scene out because they don't like people saying that Cloud is meeting Aerith there. I love Aerith at the credits but I think the removal was deliberate in saying, "no that's not what happened" and even took time to add Zerith and Cloti in ACC.

I still don't think they were showing Zerith is a relationship that will resume in a romantic sense in the lifestream but I see SE wanting to show how Zack and Aerith are equally important to Cloud. Also, both Zack and Aerith are referred to as a set in most materials as the people he had lost.

Thank you for sending me a link to that article; I do agree with quite a lot of it. I just feel that, where Maiden was published a couple of years before Crisis Core, that Zack's character doesn't really feel the same to me. Of course, that's just my reading of it. I also feel that Nojima's Case of the Lifestream, in a way, replaces it. Nevertheless, it is interesting that SE hasn't mentioned it in a long time, whereas Nojima's novellas remain with us today.

And, yes, I'm not for sure whether Zack and Aerith could resume a romantic relationship in the Lifestream; it would be absolutely beautiful if they did. But, still, I'm not for sure if spirits in the Lifestream can. Either way, they are still, definitely, two important people to Cloud. I believe they're detailed as being irreplaceable to him in the ACC postcard book. And I can certainly understand why SE would change the ending; it really does away with the confusion of that cutscene. It's clarified better in the script book, but not everyone had access to it at the time. I think ACC's ending does have more Zerith connotations to it than AC, even though I also feel that Aerith still possesses a degree of affection for Cloud. But again, like Aerith and Zack, I can't see there being a relationship between Cloud and Aerith at this point, especially since Cloud seems to place Zack and Aerith on the same level now, and he's happily living with Tifa and the kids. I could be wrong about that, but ACC's ending really did seem to place them as equals in Cloud's mind.

 

[Dashell]

You guys know when I say Aerith handles Cloud differently I'm not saying she does it BETTER or knows Cloud better or anything like that, right? Cause I get the feeling you don't think I know that

And of COURSE Tifa knows Cloud better... I guess... I feel that Aerith and Cloud had some kind of a connection or ... idk chemistry that Cloud and Tifa didn't have. I'm not saying it's better or worse, its just different. And I'd be curious to see where it'd go.

also, ps. I'm not dead.

HOORAY

 

[I Am Not Me]

Um.

You guys know when I say Aerith handles Cloud differently I'm not saying she does it BETTER or knows Cloud better or anything like that, right? Cause I get the feeling you don't think I know that

And of COURSE Tifa knows Cloud better... I guess... I feel that Aerith and Cloud had some kind of a connection or ... idk chemistry that Cloud and Tifa didn't have. I'm not saying it's better or worse, its just different. And I'd be curious to see where it'd go.

Personally I think that's BS, Cloud and Aerith compliment each other very well. In a way that Cloud and Tifa can't and don't. Aerith can seem to bring out Cloud's emotions very well and read him while Tifa is more confused by it than anything.

Of course I love Cloud and Tifa but it just seems like Cloud and Aerith has something that C/T don't.

You said it though. Saying Aerith can bring out Cloud's emotions very well while Tifa is confused is basically saying Aerith does it better. If Tifa is confused while Aerith can do all those things it means that Tifa isn't really doing very well.

I agree that C/A has something C/T don't, but let's not change what Aerith and Tifa both can do for Cloud. We all know they do it differently but that wasn't what you said. Aerith doesn't do it better, Tifa doesn't do it better. But they can both do it.

Tifa was the one who got Cloud to move during ACC when all he did was mope around while the kids were missing. Cloud understood the angry Tifa approach and went to save the kids immediately. She knew exactly what Cloud needed and it was a huge, no nonsense scolding.

Aerith tried to make him feel better about his "sins" during their scene in ACC, but Cloud didn't get it. He didn't understand the coy Aerith approach. He had to ask Vincent about it later and even then he still wasn't sure. That's probably just Cloud being thick though, but Aerith should've known that, right?

According to that, it looks like Tifa might just be doing it better.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Mmhhm. Suggesting that Aeris has a special way of getting Cloud to open up while Tifa does not is...baffling. Has Cloud opened up more to anyone other than Tifa? Because I'd like to see it. Aeris being privy to the Lifestream events doesn't count for obvious reasons, her being a special magic observer and all that.

I feel like a lot of the time their "connection" is made up to be something it simply wasn't. Look, it doesn't diminish Aeris' role in Cloud's life if she's not Cloud's match made in Nomura heaven. You don't need to defend her place. No one's attacking her.

 

[Dashell]

Hey guys, I heard someone got called out in this thread... I can't wait to see who it is. I Love it when people get pwned

Um.

You said it though. Saying Aerith can bring out Cloud's emotions very well while Tifa is confused is basically saying Aerith does it better. If Tifa is confused while Aerith can do all those things it means that Tifa isn't really doing very well.

I agree that C/A has something C/T don't, but let's not change what Aerith and Tifa both can do for Cloud. We all know they do it differently but that wasn't what you said. Aerith doesn't do it better, Tifa doesn't do it better. But they can both do it.

Tifa was the one who got Cloud to move during ACC when all he did was mope around while the kids were missing. Cloud understood the angry Tifa approach and went to save the kids immediately. She knew exactly what Cloud needed and it was a huge, no nonsense scolding.

Aerith tried to make him feel better about his "sins" during their scene in ACC, but Cloud didn't get it. He didn't understand the coy Aerith approach. He had to ask Vincent about it later and even then he still wasn't sure. That's probably just Cloud being thick though, but Aerith should've known that, right?

According to that, it looks like Tifa might just be doing it better.

anyways I have a response in mind... kinda, but you'll have to give me until I get home from work.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

I think Cloud found a sense of comfort and peace with Aerith in the movie, perhaps also the comfort and peace he was seeking when he went and set up in her church. I wouldn't say his talk with Aerith, her healing him, pulling him safely through Bahamut's Megaflare/giving him the strength to hit limit and finish that fight off there, helping him in the church via Kadaj with the lifestream fountain, the "Let's go" from Aerith to Cloud after, her amassing white lifestream to Sephiroth's black and being there with everyone for the fight via Sephiroth - Marlene's "Is it her?" - or "Sister!" if you prefer , melting the other two SHM with Great Gospel, healing Cloud after that fight, etc wasn't important, didn't play a big role in the movie and didn't help Cloud. It might have took a bit of time for his talk with Aerith to sink in, the talk with Vincent, the messages on his phone including Aerith's as well as Marlene and Tifa's words too, for it all to sink in and for Cloud to start picking up the pace but I think Aerith's words/the talk was still important as a part of that, I think at first he was just at a bit of a loss after it, since it was Aerith's forgiveness he wanted more than anything, I think there's a quote somewhere about how Aerith helped with this/or was needed for this or something, and perhaps if the talk with Aerith hadn't happened his performance for fighting might have been affected, he might have still went ahead with it, I think so to protect Tifa and the children but perhaps his guilt about what happened to others he loved might have still been at the back of his mind so he wouldn't have been fighting at his best so those he was fighting might have stood more of a chance at beating him/he might have lost, who knows , but yeah I think it was important for him to hear Aerith's words, even if it took a little time/Cloud thinking about it to sink in, I think they did help him to start to move on/Aerith was part of helping him with that.

I think Cloud was just kind of put out that he'd spent all that time blaming himself, so he had to stop and think about it when Aerith didn't seem mad at him, it was like he couldn't believe that she didn't have a problem with him for what happened, he'd spent so much time thinking that so it took him a bit to wrap his head around her "Isn't it about time you did the forgiving?" so he had to think about that some, but still I think he took it into account and that it was part of the whole process that was going on, that what she said including the "I never blamed you, not once. You came, that's all that matters" was important to him, that it was important for him to know she never blamed him, that he already had her forgiveness because he was already forgiven/never blamed by him in the first place but still I think he needed to feel he was forgiven/not blamed so he could move onto the next stage which was forgiving himself, so yeah I think that threw him for a loop that was what he would have to do since he'd never actually been able to see that before since he'd been so hung up on the forgiveness thing, so when he was presented with it after Aerith's not blaming him he was like wait ... what?

Aerith: Sigh. Dilly dally, shilly shally. Isn't it time you did the
forgiving?

[Scene switches back to the present time with Cloud, Vincent, and
Marlene.]

Cloud: Are sins ever forgiven?

Vincent: I've never tried.

Cloud: You mean ... never tried.

[Cloud looks down, thinking about Vincent's response. He looks up and
tells Marlene they're leaving.]

Cloud: Marlene, let's go.

(credits AC script)

Well Tifa, Marlene, Aerith and Vincent were all involved in this sequence of events

**

I can see where Que is coming from, and I think she's right to an extent/in a sense. Cloud finds comfort and peace while spending time with Aerith, they grew close in a short time, there is statements to support this in the Ultimanias/such. So I don't think people are wrong for picking up on that, there's also the waver between two heroines and maybe things would have been different with Aerith quotes, why because they had a different kind of bond, there's even the they had a different/special bond quote as well, so if people are picking up on the comfort/peace, special bond, different, etc stuff it is substantiated in the Ultimanias some, so it's not like they are just pulling it out of thin air or anything I don't think it's wrong to say Cloud and Aerith had a good/solid connection at least due to this, the references to it in the Ultimanias/etc. Saying/making out they have a good connection or enjoying that/discussing it/posting arts/videos/w-e/etc about it isn't taking it too far I don't think. Taking it too far would be dismissing Cloud/Tifa out of hand, denying the very existence of Cloud/Tifa, changing things around to suit ulterior motives/own agendas etc ... well peeps know what it would be and Que's not it

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No doubt they had a special bond unique to the two of them. And, yes, a lot of people contributed to Cloud overcoming his guilt (Aerith, Tifa, Vincent, Marlene and, finally, himself). I think everyone just took issue with Que's wording, which suggested that Aerith has a better grasp of Cloud than Tifa. We know that not to be the case.

As for peace and comfort, though, I don't think Cloud got that at the church. He went there seeking forgiveness and didn't actually hear from Aerith until much later.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I think I have to defend Quex even though I don't agree with her statement wholly, especially where Tifa has "confusion." I just think her intent was just misunderstood.

I will say my bond with my mother is different from my bond with my father. My mother knows my emotions well unlike my father but my father understands some things I decide that my mother can't. I think this was her intention

But I do think Tifa understands Cloud more than Aerith, that's why she knows how messed up he is and has to think about every move she does to help him. Aerith just uses her lively personality to Cloud without knowing fully the bigger hidden problem, but somehow it turns out it doesn't really matter and she and Cloud formed a bond.

Ultimately, it is Tifa who will help Cloud in his personal issues, but again, Aerith's personality is something that made her close to Cloud with little difficulty.

 

[Vendel]

I feel like a lot of the time their "connection" is made up to be something it simply wasn't. Look, it doesn't diminish Aeris' role in Cloud's life if she's not Cloud's match made in Nomura heaven. You don't need to defend her place. No one's attacking her.

Well she does live inside him. How much more connected can you be?

Tifa, as far as we know, has never been inside Cloud.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess the other way around doesn't count?

 

[Vendel]

I guess the other way around doesn't count?

On a side note. I still find it funny that some people are so hesitant to the idea that Cloud and Tifa might have had sex under the Highwind. Or that they might *gasp* share a bed.


Clearly there is nothing soul achingly beautiful about that. Not like guilt and soul fusion.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Ok, so long as what she wrote is not what she means.
I do, however, wonder why whenever something like "Tifa knew Cloud best", "Tifa was made to specifically complement Cloud" etc., people have to pop up with "Cloud and Aeris exist!!!" as if the above somehow threatens Cloud and Aeris' relationship.

It is only threatening if you make their connection into something it is not, which I think is mainly what Vendel and I are saying? But I'll just speak for myself here and say it's what I'm saying. I don't think anyone needs to keep hammering "Cloud and Aeris had a different relationship" because -- fucking DUH! Tifa's practically his wife, so yeah, it's different.

 

[Vendel]

Ok, so long as what she wrote is not what she means.
I do, however, wonder why whenever something like "Tifa knew Cloud best", "Tifa was made to specifically complement Cloud" etc., people have to pop up with "Cloud and Aeris exist!!!" as if the above somehow threatens Cloud and Aeris' relationship.

It is only threatening if you make their connection into something it is not, which I think is mainly what Vendel and I are saying? But I'll just speak for myself here and say it's what I'm saying. I don't think anyone needs to keep hammering "Cloud and Aeris had a different relationship" because -- fucking DUH! Tifa's practically his wife, so yeah, it's different.

IMO when you play up Cloud and Aerith's connection into something it isn't you have to start downplaying a lot to justify it.

And not just Cloud's mental issues. Also Aerith's issues with Zack. Cloud and his 'cannot spit it out' issues with Tifa. The events of the game which are pushing these people along. I mean does it bother no one that most of Cloud and Aerith's interactions take place in such a short amount of gamplay and narrative time? I mean how much can you establish between him falling in the church and her getting kidnapped by Shinra?

Eh my spirit wants to flesh this out more. But my brain wont cooperate. You get what I am saying.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

That's my biggest issue with Clerith. I want to see something built between them when Aerith was very much alive rather than Cloud's reaction to her death and him remembering her.

 

[supergumbo]

IMO when you play up Cloud and Aerith's connection into something it isn't you have to start downplaying a lot to justify it.

And not just Cloud's mental issues. Also Aerith's issues with Zack. Cloud and his 'cannot spit it out' issues with Tifa. The events of the game which are pushing these people along. I mean does it bother no one that most of Cloud and Aerith's interactions take place in such a short amount of gamplay and narrative time? I mean how much can you establish between him falling in the church and her getting kidnapped by Shinra?

Eh my spirit wants to flesh this out more. But my brain wont cooperate. You get what I am saying.

I've always thought that too. (a rant incoming)

Another thing that's a bit unsettling to me about the Clerith perspective is that Cloud's heart should be solely indebted to Aerith for the rest of his life, that it has to be this romantic love beyond death despite them knowing each other for a mere few weeks and not even having an established relationship yet. Im sorry, that s*** only flies for long time married couples. Cloud is a young guy in his early 20s, he just defeated his nemesis, and is finally living a normal life.

You want him to waste his life away moping for a dead girl he only knew for a few weeks? Not only that, it has to be this creepy soul fusion thing where she's inside him at all times, even when he sleeps and goes to the bathroom? What. the. f***. I don't think even a fanfiction romance novel can reach this level of bad. I doubt anybody that actually likes Cloud would want this for him. Look, if Tifa was the one to be impaled instead, I'd want Cloud to move on with Aerith 110%, no question. SE did the right thing with the story direction.

(end rant)

 

[Vendel]

^

That's my biggest issue with Clerith. I want to see something built between them when Aerith was very much alive rather than Cloud's reaction to her death and him remembering her.

Yeah, even if you go on the assumption that Cloud and Aerith were forever in love with each other by the time she has him cross-dressing, it still has trouble holding up.

Kind of says something about that argument if even upon assuming the biggest part of it (the tru wuv) you still can't hold it together.

I've always thought that too. (a rant incoming)

Another thing that's a bit unsettling to me about the Clerith perspective is that Cloud's heart should be solely indebted to Aerith for the rest of his life, that it has to be this romantic love beyond death despite them knowing each other for a mere few weeks and not even having an established relationship yet. Im sorry, that s*** only flies for long time married couples. Cloud is a young guy in his early 20s, he just defeated his nemesis, and is finally living a normal life.

I was just thinking about The billion Dollar Titanic movie. jack and Whatshername are a good C/A parallel. Short time together. Someone dies. I can't remember if whatshername got married. But let's say she didn't. Her and Jack, were only together for a few days. But in that short time they had actual romantic interactions and confessions of love. And seeeeex.

What do C/A have to compare to that? Cloud and Tifa have all of those things. Heck even Z/A have some of those things. But they were also a couple for years.

You want him to waste his life away moping for a dead girl he only knew for a few weeks? Not only that, it has to be this creepy soul fusion thing where she's inside him at all times, even when he sleeps and goes to the bathroom? What. the. f***. I don't think even a fanfiction romance novel can reach this level of bad. I doubt anybody that actually likes Cloud would want this for him. Look, if Tifa was the one to be impaled instead, I'd want Cloud to move on with Aerith 110%, no question. SE did the right thing with the story direction.

(end rant)

The silly crap some people come up with to try and justify a post death romantic hook up don't really bother me. It's the fact that they seem perfectly fine with Tifa being a pathetic character and Cloud using her/stringing her along.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Rose does get married in "Titanic" after Jack's death. But she also "never lets go," just as she promised. It's perfectly possible to do both.

Oh, and spoiler alert, I guess.