The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

It isn't doublethink. I think the LTD is up to interpretation, and I'm pointing out why my interpretation is Clerith.

No, the part that's doublethink is in saying shit like the creators have made it very clear that C/A is correct while also saying they've left it up to player interpretation.

This
"Maybe EVERYTHING that is variable remains variable? And maybe, just maybe, that’s because SE believes the love triangle is up to interpretation and doesn't want to make either pairing canon?"

Cannot logically square with saying shit like
"Furthermore — Cloti’s always say the commercial confirming Cloud x Aerith (“A story of a love that could never be…”) is not valid because it was released by an advertising company (even though SE likely approved the commercial for legal reasons, and for all we know SE helped create the commercial). But I’d say the commercial is yet another example of the prevailing idea that Cloud and Aerith are seen by most people as the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. Whether it was SE, a promotional company, or a mixture of the two, obviously whoever created the commercial came away from the original game thinking Cloud and Aerith’s love was obvious enough to include in a commercial.

But if you believe that it was only a promotional company that created the commercial, some might be so ridiculous and say that they came up with the slogan simply because they saw a man holding a woman, so they assumed they were in love. But I think that actually proves how obvious Clerith is. The burial scene, by itself, seems to convey an obvious sense of romance. The scene is inherently romantic.

Sure, Cloud’s the main character — but I think SE would have created a cut scene that incorporated all of the characters laying Aerith to rest if Cloud and Aerith were only friends. Instead, SE wanted to convey an intimate scene of Cloud laying his romantic interest to rest. And the fact that those who created the commercial came away from the burial scene with the notion that it was, “A story of a love that could never be…” speaks to the obvious romance that SE was portraying between Cloud and Aerith throughout the game and in that scene. Imagery is sometimes more powerful and meaningful than dialogue.

Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else. "

You wonder why Cleriths get accused of speaking out of both sides of their mouths? That's why. You want to claim 'It's all interpretation' while also claiming 'It's OBVIOUS S/E did this on purpose to show C/A'

Oh, and you're still missing the point. FTOIL doesn't make HAHW canon. It doesn't need to. All it NEEDs to do is make the feelings of that night- feelings we already had confirmed as canon- unambiguously romantic.

The FTOIL page was never our silver bullet against the Clerith ship werewolf. It was merely another layer in a grand and exquisitely crafted evidence confection.

You're looking at a individual puzzle pieces and refusing to see the picture. We are attaching those pieces to create a coherent whole. Sure, maybe we're missing a piece in the middle left of the whole thing, but we're pretty damn sure what we're assembling is a country cottage with a waterwheel and a lovely flowing brook.

 

[BlankBeat]

You wonder why Cleriths get accused of speaking out of both sides of their mouths? That's why. You want to claim 'It's all interpretation' while also claiming 'It's OBVIOUS S/E did this on purpose to show C/A'

Yes, it is obvious TO ME that SE did those things on purpose to show C/A. They have also done things to show C/T. Thus the inherent nature of a love triangle where a hero wavers between two heroines.

I have no problem admitting that there is valid Cloti evidence. Why do you have a problem admitting there is valid Clerith evidence?

I think it is clear that given the nature of this love triangle, SE has provided OBVIOUS pieces of evidence on BOTH sides.

You're looking at a individual puzzle pieces and refusing to see the picture. We are attaching those pieces to create a coherent whole. Sure, maybe we're missing a piece in the middle left of the whole thing, but we're pretty damn sure what we're assembling is a country cottage with a waterwheel and a lovely flowing brook.

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Cloti's with regards to the in-game Clerith moments.

Cloti's tend to only look at those scenes individually and not as a whole. But when looked at as a whole, it is clear that the relationship between Cloud and Aerith progressed from a mutual attraction to that of a romance. This becomes even clearer when you consider that the hero wavers between two heroines, the koibito quote, and the engraved quote.

 

[BlankBeat]

Oh, and you're still missing the point. FTOIL doesn't make HAHW canon. It doesn't need to. All it NEEDs to do is make the feelings of that night- feelings we already had confirmed as canon- unambiguously romantic.

My response still stands:
If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.


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All other times it is never stated what type of feelings are expressed. Therefore, the only time you can say the feelings are stated to be romantic is on the FTOIL page. But the FTOIL page, IMO, is irrelevant given the context of that page. Again, that page is not determining default versions to variable scenes. It is talking about romantic couples, therefore the HAHW scene is the only version appropriate for that page. It proves nothing regarding the canon storyline of FFVII.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm sorry I didn't even read the longer of Blankbeat's recent posts, could someone tell me is there anything new in there? Or could I just assume its same old, same old like the shorter posts I did bother with, and thus continue to skip the rest? I really will go read if there is anything resembling something worthwhile.

 

[BlankBeat]

If you are sick of this debate and can't stop yourself from being rude, don't come to this thread. I have not insulted anyone. I have not mocked anyone. Yet numerous people here have been sarcastic and condescending towards me.

No wonder TLS has the reputation it does and Clerith's don't want to debate here.


::::

 

[Dashell]

Just one thing Blankbeat:

“A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life” ~Square Enix

This is not what the quote is. It's actually just saying he'll never forget her. The official translation used what the idiom "engraved in one's heart/mind" actually means rather than translate it literally.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If you are sick of this debate and can't stop yourself from being rude, don't come to this thread. I have not insulted anyone. I have not mocked anyone. Yet numerous people here have been sarcastic and condescending towards me.

No wonder TLS has the reputation it does and Clerith's don't want to debate here.


::::

Actually, repeating claims over and over that you have already seen proven false both in conversation with others and in debate you yourself engaged in as recently as today (e.g. you're still citing a commercial from Sony of America's marketing department and ignoring what that "engraved" quote actually means) is extremely insulting. While you and I both know you would refuse to accept Tifa's profile from the Official Crisis Core Strategy Guide (it says the High Affection Highwind scene took place) because it's from a third party like that commercial.

Not to mention that you refuse to acknowledge Ryu's point that you're claiming to.hold two contradictory positions -- i.e. that SE intended the love triangle to be up to each player while simultaneously intending that CxA is the intended outcome.

You're being severely intellectually dishonest. You're taking a huge dump on everyone here, so you deserve whatever you're getting in response.

 

[Roger]

I'd just like to say real quickly -- much as been made of the fact that the majority of Clerith evidence I pointed out happens when Cloud is not his "true" self.

The majority? She dies before he returns to his true self. They do not maintain romantic relationship afterwards. AC is the first time since then that they interacted and they had bigger things to woory about.

I find this a convenient way for Cloti's to dismiss the majority of Clerith evidence. Why do I feel this way? Because if all of those moments between Cloud and Aerith are null-in-void simply because Cloud was not his "true" self, why does he continue to hold Aerith in such high regard after he discovers his "true" self?

If Cloud can continue to feel GUILT for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self, he can also continue to feel LOVE for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self.

Not that i don't think Cloud feels love for Aerith but that is not accurate. Cloud is perfectly capable of feeling guilty for beating the shit out of someone and trying to kill them WITHOUT having had an equal chance to fall in love with them. Cloud can feel blame himself for all kinds of things without it being possible to have a romantic relationship with it.

And I don't think they are "null and void" but I do feel that Aerith acknowledging that the person she is talking to is not Cloud real self, as she puts it, and that she failed to get the chance to meet his real self before she died puts a damper on the relationship.

And even if you only view Aerith and Cloud as friends, their friendship was built while Cloud wasn't his "true" self. So my point is, after Cloud discovers his "true" self, he still has strong feelings for Aerith because of all the moments they shared during his identity crisis. And yes, these feelings can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation, but these feelings exist nonetheless and stem from the moments I've listed.

Yes. Cloud has all the memories of his time as Zack-Cloud and they remain valuable to him and the people he met in them. That doesn't mean they are the same people. He is capable of making his own choices now, instead of being part of you being reduced to being a voice inside his own head telling him to question Tifa about Nibelheim more strongly.

Cloud was simply confused and channeling Zack's memories,

See this is what I'm talking about. Disc 1 Cloud was waay more then "simply confused". THat's what you need to reduce the main plot of FFVII too because Clerith is more important.

 

[JayM]

But if you believe that it was only a promotional company that created the commercial, some might be so ridiculous and say that they came up with the slogan simply because they saw a man holding a woman, so they assumed they were in love. But I think that actually proves how obvious Clerith is. The burial scene, by itself, seems to convey an obvious sense of romance. The scene is inherently romantic.

Y’know? I think more than anything else, it’s arguments like this that really bug me in the LTD.

If you remove romance from FFVII's plot, you know what's still true? Aeris is still the last of the Ancients. Aeris still summons Holy. Aeris still dies at Sephiroth's hands trying to save the world and Aeris' comrades are still devastated and driven because of it.

Aeris still has a character arc of self-discovery and connections to other people that echoes Cloud's and Sephiroth's.

Aeris still wakes up Lifestream to save the whole world.

And do you know why?

Because she's A MAIN FUCKING CHARACTER.

Cloud, Aeris, and Sephiroth are the main characters of FFVII (side note: if anyone wants to have a mini-debate about that point, come at me bro). That's why she's on one of the discs in the Advent Pieces release of the game. That's why she cameos in tons of crap related to the compilation. That's why she's as iconic to the FFVII franchise as Cloud is. Because she's a main character. Cloud and Tifa could be married on-screen and have a gajillion makeout scenes, and that scene with Cloud laying Aeris to rest would still be one of the most important scenes in the game, because a main character fucking died.

And when people, especially people who claim to really love Aeris, reduce her to Cloud's love interest and make arguments that only work if you believe her only importance to the canon is as a love interest, it makes me want to scream. I don't really give a shit who Cloud's banging or wants to bang, but female characters are so often denied their own storylines in favor of being The Love Interest, why in the hell would you ever make an argument that encouraged that line of thought?

You know why a lot of "generic" video game sites cite CxA as the main couple? Because of the same thinking. Because people can't understand a girl who's important to the plot, and important to the main character, in any position other than "love interest."

So, from one Aeris fan to another: fucking stop it. That scene is not "inherently romantic." She's dead. It's inherently tragic, and it would be even if Cloud were gayer than a rainbow chocobo and Aeris was a strict asexual. Because Aeris' appeal and her importance go way beyond whether Cloud wants to fuck her.

 

[Danseru-kun]

If you are sick of this debate and can't stop yourself from being rude, don't come to this thread. I have not insulted anyone. I have not mocked anyone. Yet numerous people here have been sarcastic and condescending towards me.

No wonder TLS has the reputation it does and Clerith's don't want to debate here.


::::

You say Clotis does this and that instead of directly addressing the argument. You don't realize how your arguments have been refuted already in this thread and then what you do is simply say "Clotis can't accept Clerith evidence."

This is frustrating and rude to many people. We took time to make arguments that does not attack you, but then when it's time for you to argue back you repeat the same old arguments and just say "Clotis have a hard time accepting Clerith evidence."

That's why I don't want to bother addressing all your arguments, but I answered number 5 by showing how the HAHW scene quote present in the Cloud and Tifa profiles (not a placeholder of scenes) is present in Celes/Locke, Squall/Rinoa, Steiner/Beatrix and the variation can be seen in Tidus/Yuna and Zell/Pigtailed girl.

You said you don't have problems accepting Cloti evidence when we can't accept Clerith ones, but honestly you come off as unaccepting of all Cloti evidence we presented then nitpick whatever attitude some members display here.

I will not accept any reply you give from this post because you have more important things to address rather than this, so I will wait for your response to my post here: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=493343&postcount=4507

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, it is obvious TO ME that SE did those things on purpose to show C/A. They have also done things to show C/T. Thus the inherent nature of a love triangle where a hero wavers between two heroines.

And then clearly makes a choice for one of them.

I have no problem admitting that there is valid Cloti evidence. Why do you have a problem admitting there is valid Clerith evidence?

Because the presumption that Cloud had serious romantic feelings for Aerith beyond basic chemistry and attraction still remains just that. A presumption. You have never offered evidence to support the level of love your analysis depends upon.
Because you quite often assume meanings for phrases and actions that make no fuckdamn sense in the context of the greater universe, other statements, and the japanese language, like taking 'She lives on inside him' as an explicit literal statement instead of the fucking idiom it is, and ignoring that Aerith is described as also living on in other people AND specifically in the proper lifestream itself.

I think it is clear that given the nature of this love triangle, SE has provided OBVIOUS pieces of evidence on BOTH sides.

Then if both sides have 'OBVIOUS' evidence, why is it so hard to admit that Cloud and Tifa are a couple? Because let us assume there is, magically, equal evidence of Cloud's love for both women. Your claims are that Cloud will forever love and pine for and never move on from a woman he knew literally for less than a month, possibly less than two weeks, and who is now dead.
Out claim is that Cloud will continue to love a woman he has had a crush on since BEFORE HIS BALLS DROPPED and who he lives with (For the better part of four years, as of Denzel's framing story), has a future with, formed a family with, and belongs with.
And that's not including that Denzel, their adopted child sees them as his mom and dad, or that their best friends see them as being together, with Tifa 'wearing the pants.'
Hell, that's leaving out that literally the first thing Nojima knew and cemented about the movie when writing it was that Cloud and Tifa would be together or that Uematsu wrote 'Cloud Smiles' in reference to a line in the script where Cloud returns a smile from Tifa with one of his own.
Hell, that's ignoring that Square Enix has now GONE OUT OF THEIR WAY to produce a prequel which emphasizes how much Aerith's old boyfriend meant to her and how much he had on her and HIS infuence on Cloud affected her behavior in FF7. Hell, it's ignoring that that influence has been explicitly stated before.

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Cloti's with regards to the in-game Clerith moments.

Cloti's tend to only look at those scenes individually and not as a whole. But when looked at as a whole, it is clear that the relationship between Cloud and Aerith progressed from a mutual attraction to that of a romance. This becomes even clearer when you consider that the hero wavers between two heroines, the koibito quote, and the engraved quote.

How can it be a romance if Cloud NEVER KNEW SHE WAS INTERESTED? No, seriously. I REALLY want to know. Cloud is explicitly oblivious right up until MAYBE the day before she leaves the party if he ever twigs to it at all, and she dies right after. What romance?

As for the Koibito quote, do you mean the one where Tifa is explicitly described from an extra-universal perspective as being someone's beloved, a quote Cleriths all over seem to adamantly refuse to even consider could possibly mean Cloud, or do you mean the Lifestream White quote, where 'woman' refers to Cloud as being her beloved from her own perspective? Because 'Woman' is never, EVER called Aerith, just as 'Man' is never, ever, called Sephiroth. Can we not conclude who these people are, just as it is impossible to determine who Tifa is loved by?

And as for that engraved quote, do you mean the one about Cloud's promise to Tifa, or the one about the woman whose murder he witnessed and nearly committed against his will? Because all engraved there means is 'will never forget.

My response still stands:
If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

Then your response is still COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT! Thanks for playing, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

Except A: The HAHW ISN'T actually 'included' in the FTOIL page. The picture shown is of dialogue that is the same between versions, and the page makes no mention of the variation.

Also, B: You completely ignored my point that we don't need that page to canonize the HAHW. It's the only scene shown in Memorial Album (In contrast, all four dates ARE shown), it's shown in several of the timelines, and as I explicitly mentioned, it's one of the four most important/notable scenes in the game, and its full script is shown alongside Aerith's death in the 20th anniversary Ultimania Story for FF7. It actually beat out the lifestream.
Square Enix thinks the High Highwind scene is just as goddamn important to the character narrative of FF7 as Aerith's death.

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All other times it is never stated what type of feelings are expressed. Therefore, the only time you can say the feelings are stated to be romantic is on the FTOIL page. But the FTOIL page, IMO, is irrelevant given the context of that page. Again, that page is not determining default versions to variable scenes. It is talking about romantic couples, therefore the HAHW scene is the only version appropriate for that page. It proves nothing regarding the canon storyline of FFVII.

You're actually rather profoundly wrong that it never says what kinds of feelings. I used the words implicitly and explicitly for a reason. Japanese has a whole host of words that would be translated into english as 'feelings,' and while the english word feelings has a whole host of possible meanings that are typically inferred from context, the japanese words are more precise. As such, the romance is implicit in the word choice, rather than explicit in the use of the term 'romantic' or 'of love.' Danseru has been over this before in this thread.
Of course, even in English, 'feelings for each other' is nearly always used to refer to romance between a man and a woman unless specific steps are taken to indicate that they are not.

Also, let me again echo everything that Tres said. Just because you're not calling a dickbag doesn't mean you aren't being amazingly rude.

Also, what JayM said.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Y’know? I think more than anything else, it’s arguments like this that really bug me in the LTD.

If you remove romance from FFVII's plot, you know what's still true? Aeris is still the last of the Ancients. Aeris still summons Holy. Aeris still dies at Sephiroth's hands trying to save the world and Aeris' comrades are still devastated and driven because of it.

Aeris still has a character arc of self-discovery and connections to other people that echoes Cloud's and Sephiroth's.

Aeris still wakes up Lifestream to save the whole world.

And do you know why?

Because she's A MAIN FUCKING CHARACTER.

Cloud, Aeris, and Sephiroth are the main characters of FFVII (side note: if anyone wants to have a mini-debate about that point, come at me bro). That's why she's on one of the discs in the Advent Pieces release of the game. That's why she cameos in tons of crap related to the compilation. That's why she's as iconic to the FFVII franchise as Cloud is. Because she's a main character. Cloud and Tifa could be married on-screen and have a gajillion makeout scenes, and that scene with Cloud laying Aeris to rest would still be one of the most important scenes in the game, because a main character fucking died.

And when people, especially people who claim to really love Aeris, reduce her to Cloud's love interest and make arguments that only work if you believe her only importance to the canon is as a love interest, it makes me want to scream. I don't really give a shit who Cloud's banging or wants to bang, but female characters are so often denied their own storylines in favor of being The Love Interest, why in the hell would you ever make an argument that encouraged that line of thought?

You know why a lot of "generic" video game sites cite CxA as the main couple? Because of the same thinking. Because people can't understand a girl who's important to the plot, and important to the main character, in any position other than "love interest."

So, from one Aeris fan to another: fucking stop it. That scene is not "inherently romantic." She's dead. It's inherently tragic, and it would be even if Cloud were gayer than a rainbow chocobo and Aeris was a strict asexual. Because Aeris' appeal and her importance go way beyond whether Cloud wants to fuck her.

I'm not even that big an FFVII fan and I want to frame this post and hang it on my wall. Well said.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I have a lot of issues with the logic that just because there is a main hero and a main heroine of the story they are also the romantic couple, or love is always two sided. Main heroes of different genders are not required to fall in love, be a romantic interest or be together, they are required to be HEROES and HEROINES and that's their most important role. True some fall in love in the end but it's not a requirement. The fact that they are also the poster pair does not mean they are canonically in love with one another.

Spoiler: some examples

Lelouch and CC - unconfirmed romance, Lelouch sees CC as an equal equivalent of Charles and his Scheizel (did I got the spelling right)
Ichigo and Rukia - Kubo does not confirm romance
Vaan and Ashe - ehhhhhh
Lightning and Snow - future in-laws... kinda
Serah and Noel - platonic, Serah has Snow
Ragna and Noel V. - technically siblings
Sol and Dizzy - hinted to be father-daughter or something
Setsuna and Marina - poster pair, only canon is a questionable manga, anime absolutely don't
Luke and Leia - SIBLINGS *gasp* spoilers
Harry and Hermoine - let's not talk about Harmony here

I'm a hardcore shipper of the top two ships up there alright. And also a fact:

In original FFVII opening, the first main characters shown are Aerith and BARRET. Does that make them the established couple?

Forward to around 2:00 and see how Barret comes first before Cloud. I know this got revised in HQ graphics and I loved it, but note if the opening scene is to be used as a proof for an "intended pairing," then in 1997 it won't really fit Clerith.

 

[Kittie]

I agree with your assessment, Danseru. The logic behind the main hero/heroine hooking up in a story doesn't always hold true. It's even so in literature. Peter Pan is also a perfect example of this. The original prose edition was titled Peter and Wendy, and yet the two mentioned don't end up together. Really, not every story needs this romantic formula to be something worthy of remembrance. I actually find it quite remarkable that Nojima and the others went this route with FFVII.

And thanks for posting that video; I nearly forgot about Barret appearing first in that scene. Aerith/Barret. Now, there's an interesting couple for you!

 

[Danseru-kun]

To add, here are some Star Wars posters

Spoiler

Notice how Luke/Leia gets 2/3 of the posters rather than a canon couple Han/Lea. Well I know there are some issues with writing but this is one of the proofs that the poster pair isn't always a canon pair, even with "romantic subtext" (Lea kissed Luke twice.)

 

[Ryushikaze]

To add, here are some Star Wars posters

Spoiler

Notice how Luke/Leia gets 2/3 of the posters rather than a canon couple Han/Lea. Well I know there are some issues with writing but this is one of the proofs that the poster pair isn't always a canon pair, even with "romantic subtext" (Lea kissed Luke twice.)

Oh, Yippee! Someone brought up Star Wars, and that lets me go into the subject of why Marketing is lying to you and all truths within them are incidental rather than required.

Okay, look at that first SW poster. That's not the original US poster.

Spoiler: This is

Not Luke's Bare six pack chest, the focus on the Lighsaber as awesome blade of super importance, Leia's Cleavage and High thigh dress, the scores of X wings.
All of these things are NOT in the movie. (X-wings and lightsaber, yes, so many or so emphasized, no)

Even if done In-house, marketing is trying to play fast and loose with the truth and clever language to sell you shit. It is inherently untrustworthy. It is not a standard of truth, and should never be taken as such.

Especially since in the case of FF games, they've NEVER really given a shit about accurate representations of the games being played and the Sony FFVIII commercial ALSO fucked up some basic story elements. More recently, they've learned to give up and not even try and tell people what their shit's about.

 

[Dante]

Hey Ryu, it's Dante. I have a question for you. What do you think about the Case of Lifestream White where Aerith calls Cloud her kobito?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hey Ryu, it's Dante. I have a question for you. What do you think about the Case of Lifestream White where Aerith calls Cloud her kobito?

I think it's from Aerith's perspective, and that it rather clearly shows She was serious about him, but that it cannot logically be reconciled with the idea of them being in a romance or relationship (IE- Lover, as opposed to beloved), given he knew nothing of how she felt while she was alive.

I also think she's never called Aerith, so we can't be SURE it's Aerith, but that's just me being a dickbag since the same logic is used on the Reunion Koibito quote.

In short, though, I definitely realize Aerith loved Cloud, and probably would have pursued him too, had she lived, and given her more forthright nature, might have 'stolen' Cloud away from Tifa for awhile, before deciding they were better for each other, no matter how much it hurt to give him up.

 

[Dashell]

I need to correct something here:

It is also ridiculous to claim Barret is not apart of this family. Yes, I know SE says this is a family of "four". But that's only because Barret is off doing missions. They are only a family of "four" while Barret is away doing missions. It is undeniable that Marlene is considered Barret's daughter, so if Marlene is Barret's daughter, he is therefore apart of this family. In fact, when Barret hears they are under attack, he rushes back to defend his "family". Barret is also the first person to call them a family in COT, and was always a apart of this "family of friends" dating back to well before the beginning of Final Fantasy VII. To deny his rightful place in this family is only done to try and build up Cloti as being something it's not.

1. Marlene called it a family first:

After saying this, Barret said he still had to get ready and walked out of the bar.

“You knew about this?” (Tifa)

“Yeah..” (Cloud)

“Did you stop him?” (Tifa)

“Nah, I didn’t because he would just say this is Tifa’s place.” (Cloud)

“…I see. If that’s so, it can’t be helped then.” (Tifa)

Does Cloud also think this? Actually, I wanted to ask him about that.

Marlene, who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night.

Early the next morning, Barret set off.

Behind him Marlene shouted, “Send me some letters! Phone me, too!”

Barret lifted his artificial right arm up that had a machine gun attached to it. He kept walking without looking back. It was the back of a figure who had no other way to live than to fight. I wonder just what kind of life he will find. I prayed that he would be able to stay far away from war. Not just take. I prayed he would be able to prove that he could give, too.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”

2. If the Seventh Heaven family is a "family of friends"... then

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

What are Marlene's sins being referred to here? I've asked this so many times and never got an answer

3. If Tifa, Barret and all of them were a family before FFVII, where are all the quotes talking about Tifa and Barret realizing their feelings for each other and deciding to live together? Barret and Tifa are the same as Cloud and Tifa right now right?... so they should have some quotes too.

4. Okay you win, Barret's in the family... ... what does this change?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Yeah, whether or not Barret's in the family it doesn't really change a thing. Look at Rurouni Kenshin, as far as I know Megumi, Sanosuke and Yahiko all live with Kaoru and Kenshin and this does not change a thing. Megumi also comes off as the mother of the family even if Kenshin isn't exactly her lover.

Families can be made up of many other families and be considered as one. In my country I know a lot of families that live together in one big ancestral house, doesn't make all the other married couples less than couples.

 

[Dante]

I think it's from Aerith's perspective, and that it rather clearly shows She was serious about him, but that it cannot logically be reconciled with the idea of them being in a romance or relationship (IE- Lover, as opposed to beloved), given he knew nothing of how she felt while she was alive.

I also think she's never called Aerith, so we can't be SURE it's Aerith, but that's just me being a dickbag since the same logic is used on the Reunion Koibito quote.

In short, though, I definitely realize Aerith loved Cloud, and probably would have pursued him too, had she lived, and given her more forthright nature, might have 'stolen' Cloud away from Tifa for awhile, before deciding they were better for each other, no matter how much it hurt to give him up.

Do you think she's over Zack cause I think Case of Lifestream would seem to indicate that? I think its easier to understand both sides since I like both Cloti and Clerith.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If you are sick of this debate and can't stop yourself from being rude, don't come to this thread. I have not insulted anyone. I have not mocked anyone. Yet numerous people here have been sarcastic and condescending towards me.

When did I ever say I was sick of the debate? I enjoy the debate, when actual debate happens (and when its just a bunch of us mean ol' Clotis informing each other of each new nail in the LTD's battered coffin). Also I do genuinely apologize if I came out as directly rude there, such was not my intention. I was going for a more gentle ribbing with what I said, more of a "wow are we doing this again?" than "stfu, gtfo!" Sarcastic and condescending, yeah that's a fair cop. But I intended to use them in a slightly more friendly way than it apparently came across.

No wonder TLS has the reputation it does and Clerith's don't want to debate here.

Oh, and here I thought it was because we keep pointing out the myriad ways in which your position is wrong. Or how we call you on every shift of the goal posts. Or your double standards, hypocrisy, and double speak. Your quote mining, your ability to ignore the wider context, and your tendency to flat out make shit up if necessary. Well that and the fact that none of the Cleriths I've spoken to who refrain from all that horseshit I just listed bother to debate anymore, they just enjoy their pairing in peace.

Tis a much healthier attitude than what we're all doing probably. But fuck it, healthy isn't always fun

::::

Bit dramatic there isn't it? If five exclamation points are the sure sign of a deranged mind (those people need watching), what about six colons? More research is needed here methinks.

Anyway, no one answered my question concerning whether your post contained anything but the same things we've all heard from this or that Clerith a million times, so what the hell. Out of morbid curiosity, I'll take a look...

I'd just like to say real quickly -- much as been made of the fact that the majority of Clerith evidence I pointed out happens when Cloud is not his "true" self.

You mean "all" rather than "the majority" right? Cloud didn't get his fractured and broken mind put back together until well after Aerith died. Tifa got inside his head and glued the pieces back with him, remember?

I find this a convenient way for Cloti's to dismiss the majority of Clerith evidence.

I thought it was convenient to dismiss it because the majority of it isn't real

Why do I feel this way? Because if all of those moments between Cloud and Aerith are null-in-void simply because Cloud was not his "true" self, why does he continue to hold Aerith in such high regard after he discovers his "true" self?

Now hold on, who ever said they were null, void, or any combination thereof? Cloud's interactions with Aerith DO matter, they had an effect on him. He holds her in high regard to this day from all evidence. But yes, the onus of proving that romantic feels developed from those interactions/that said interactions had any romantic intent from Cloud to Aerith (not the other way around) is on you if you're going to claim its oh so obvious.

If Cloud can continue to feel GUILT for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self, he can also continue to feel LOVE for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self.

Sure can. So, prove there was love there when he was all messed up. If its so obvious there must be tons of real evidence just lying around waiting to be revealed, yes? Like a Clerith version of us showing how Cloud has been interested in Tifa since he was a little kid, kept up those feelings for years (some of which were spent in a tank being driven insane), spent his messed up time still interested, and then eventually got together with her in the end? Oh wait, no even if you had any compelling evidence some of those things just flat couldn't happen with Aerith. My bad.

And even if you only view Aerith and Cloud as friends, their friendship was built while Cloud wasn't his "true" self. So my point is, after Cloud discovers his "true" self, he still has strong feelings for Aerith because of all the moments they shared during his identity crisis. And yes, these feelings can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation, but these feelings exist nonetheless and stem from the moments I've listed.

You were doing fine with this paragraph until you brought interpretation into it. Everything there looks good, if you just cut out "can be either romantic or platonic" and so on. Hell, even if that were true it would do exactly jack and shit to stop Cloti from being canon. Cloud could have plenty of romantic feels for Aerith in your interpretation... but he still ended up with Tifa.

It's not like Cloud was blacked out drunk the entire time and doesn't remember those moments I listed. Cloud was simply confused and channeling Zack's memories, but that doesn't mean the intimate moments he shared with Aerith were deleted from his memory when he finally discovered the truth about himself. Again, if Cloud can feel guilt for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self, he can also continue to feel "love" for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self.

Yeah, seeing nothing new so far. Beginning to regret doing this but eh, I should finish up this post at least. So tell me... what intimate moments do you refer to? And again, who is trying to tell you none of Cloud's time with Aerith matters? Cause yeah, no one here is claiming that to my knowledge.

Given that a love triangle is stated as occurring in the game, the fact that SE says the hero wavers between two heroines, the fact that SE says Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and the fact that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, I do not think it is wrong to view all of the examples I listed under a romantic lense

Ok, gonna just stop mid paragraph there to discuss this. So there is a love triangle... big freakin' deal. This is evidence of roughly dick. Love triangle DO get resolved, ya know. So Cloud was stated to waver between two heroines. That isn't happening now. He wavered. He stopped wavering. He got with Tifa. Cloud is beloved by Aerith, which gives absolutely no indication of his feelings for Aerith. Meanwhile, Tifa has been proclaimed by Word of God to be beloved by someone, with Cloud being the only really viable candidate. And as has been pointed out to you many times, the phrase you're looking at as "engraved in Cloud's heart forever always" really just means "will never forget" and lacks the lovey connection you're seeing because of the word "heart" being there. The exact same phrase was used to describe Cloud and Tifa's childhood promise.

So there we go, a bunch of stuff that's already been responded to many, many times in this thread. This is seriously why I asked if I should bother.

-- Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith’s bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, TWO canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction from Cait Sith, the burial scene, the hand reach scene, and Cloud living in Aerith's Church (his guilt and love overlap and underly each other immensely). All of these moments are evidence of a mutual romance, especially under the context of which we are working with (love triangle, hero wavering between two heroines, Cloud being Aerith's koibito, and Aerith being engraved in Cloud's heart).

So Cloud agreed to be a bodyguard for the apparently helpless flower girl who is being accosted by Turks, who despite their popularity with the fans are well known to Cloud as amoral assholes who do wetworks and kidnapping. Whether he accepted the date as payment or not is still up in the air, some folks think he accepted, some are less sure (like myself, I still see his non-verbal response as a "I take cash lady, but I'll do it anyway). Since it IS non-verbal, until we get a confirmation that genuinely could go either way. If he did accept, then hey, fucked in the head Cloud accepted a date. He still got with Tifa once his head was less fucked, so that's fine. I'll even grant you the date as payment, since it goes with his interaction with Marlene so well and thus is indeed probably more likely. Since the final outcome remains the same... so what? How does him comforting Aerith (who is still imprisoned by Shinra) by providing a call-back to his being her bodyguard show romance? She references the date as pay thing there, Cloud doesn't. What intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon? Really, just what the hell even are you talking about there? Is it his "I...we're here for you" line? Cause if that's a confession, my name is [insert extremely unlikely name here] the third. The hand reach scene(s) are less romantic and more "our dead friend hasn't left us and is still trying to help." Its sweet and awesome and you cheapen it by seeing it only through pink tinted shipper goggles. Cait Sith did not predict a bloody wedding, he rated Cloud and Aerith on their compatibility and found they would work well together. It'd be very sweet if not for A.) Cait Sith's supremely unreliable skills as a fortune teller and B.) the fact that compatibility doesn't mean they HAVE to be together. And even if it DID mean that... she fucking died, and Cloud is with Tifa as of the present. Considering the funeral romantic is fucking creepy and I hope you know that. Cloud living in the church is pure guilt, and as soon as he gets over his funk and gets his disease cured he is confirmed to move back in with Tifa WHERE HE BELONGS. No romance.

Very few of these things even touch on romance, despite your claim otherwise. Those that do are inconclusive at worst and somewhat minor at best. And since absolutely NONE of it matters considering that, even if he did love Aerith, Cloud IS WITH TIFA... yeah. All of this has been pointed out before. All of it. Every word so far. Why are we even still going over this?

Some have also said I'm denying Cloti evidence. That is simply not true. There is lots of Cloti evidence,

Truest words in the whole post there folks.

and I think the HAHW scene makes a strong case. But the Cloti evidence is not as strong as some are making it out to be, and in the process, they are also downplaying the Clerith evidence I've listed. Honestly, the only solid piece of Cloti evidence I see is the Highwind scene. And this is a variable scene. And even if the HAHW scene is canon, it does not take away Cloud's separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith.

The HAHW scene makes a damningly strong case. Its hardly all Cloti has, and the FTOIL page makes it clear what happened in a purely (as Ryu would and HAS called it many times) version agnostic way. Cloud and Tifa did the whole becoming a couple thing. That happened. End of. Its every bit as strong as we make it out to be, atop the rest of the pile of evidence we've displayed here and in this thread's predecessors. We don't downplay your evidence, we point out that much of your "evidence" is no such thing. The only solid piece of Cloti evidence you see should be more than enough, but you don't want it to be so it isn't. You don't see the rest because you don't wanna. You must repeatedly claim the existence of an alternate HW scene somehow topples the whole house of cards when it just isn't so.

You're an ostrich with its head in the sand, pretending that if you don't see it it isn't real. Which is silly because ostriches don't even really do that, and even the metaphorical ones don't do it for such a reason

Also -- some have said Cloud is "happy" living with Tifa and the children.

Ummm... forgive me, my memory fails, where did we get the idea that Cloud is happy living with his family? Who said that? Oh right, it was Square fucking Enix. Official quotes. Oh my, are you going to outright go against THAT now?

Well, that may or may not be true depending on what other material you look at.

Ah, not outright, just pretending there is wiggle room. Well played. Except there is no wiggle room at all. That kinda hurts your case a bit.

But just because he is happy, doesn't necessarily mean they are romantic partners raising children. Marlene is Barret's daughter and Denzel was brought to Cloud by Aerith.

Marlene has two daddies and Cloud said he THOUGHT Denzel was brought to him by Aerith. No word from Aerith on the matter as of this time, so really who the fuck knows? Does it matter? Either way, the kid was adopted and is being raised by Cloud and Tifa. How he came to be there is irrelevant to that bit of the discussion.

Tifa doesn't consider them a 'real' family,

She asked if they were or were not a 'real' family while going through an incredibly bad patch. This does not mean that in normal, happy times when Cloud isn't being an ass and disappearing that she continues to feel as such. Or even that she genuinely felt that way DURING the hard times.

and it is proven, with screenshots, that Cloud has a place to sleep in his separate room.

Yes, he has a cot in his office. We know. We've refuted the claim that this magically prevents him from sharing a room with Tifa before. We've refuted the claim that him sleeping there would prevent them from being a couple before. We've done this entire song and dance already. Its the only dance I've ever seen where one side steps on their OWN feet all the time.

It makes no difference if he has other furniture in there or not. It makes no difference if it is a bed or a cot. Cloud has a place to sleep, period.

All that is true, there is no other furniture whatsoever and it hardly looks like a place one would consider their "room." Its a damn office with a cot in it. It is indeed a COT, not a bed. But it is indeed a place to sleep, period. So... you seen Cloud sleep there? No? So what, precisely, are you proving here? Nothing? That's what I thought.

And Tifa, at one point, tells Cloud to drink in "his room".

I've been told this. Other folks here have referred to fathers, uncles, etc being told these exact words. Sometimes it meant their office, sometimes a den or study, sometimes it just meant "go to the bedroom we share where I don't have to see you." You are again saying old words that have no new meaning.

There is also no picture of Cloud sleeping with Tifa, so it is only reasonable to assume he sleeps on the bed/cot/place-to-sleep that is shown in his private room.

There is also no picture of Cloud sleeping alone, so it is only reasonable to assume he does not. Works both ways there. Oh, and since Tifa does indeed watch him sleep all night long in OTWTaS:CoT and talk to him and so on... its reasonable to assume they're sleeping together at the time at the very least. So yeah, deal with it already.

The relationship between Cloud and Tifa in AC is completely and utterly ambiguous, and to many people, shows two horrifically incompatible people. There is ZERO romantic scenes shown between them.

A.) Movie isn't about romance, B.) it was hardly a romantic situation they were in at the time.

It is also ridiculous to claim Barret is not apart of this family. Yes, I know SE says this is a family of "four".

Yes, and Barrett would make five. Five is one more than four. Ergo, Barrett is not part of the bloody family. Are we really arguing about something that is mathematically solvable at this point?

But that's only because Barret is off doing missions.

Oh is that the official position? Its a family of four but Barrett gets added back in selectively, making it a family of five? Show me where this was said please, cause I want to point at SE and laugh for how ridiculous that is.

They are only a family of "four" while Barret is away doing missions. It is undeniable that Marlene is considered Barret's daughter, so if Marlene is Barret's daughter, he is therefore apart of this family.

No, that means Marlene is undeniably part of two families. She has two daddies, as it were. This isn't uncommon in real life. One of my own daughters lives with her with her mother and step-father quite far from me. She is part of that family. I am NOT. Is she still part of MY family? YES.

This isn't that hard.

In fact, when Barret hears they are under attack, he rushes back to defend his "family". Barret is also the first person to call them a family in COT, and was always a apart of this "family of friends" dating back to well before the beginning of Final Fantasy VII. To deny his rightful place in this family is only done to try and build up Cloti as being something it's not.

No shit Barrett rushes back to help, his KID is there in danger. That is in fact his family. This does not make him part of the 7th Heaven family. You are proving nothing. Barrett is NOT the first person who calls the 7th Heaven Family as such, MARLENE is, which has been pointed out already. Quite a few times, as most of what you and I have said has. The "family of friends" and the 7th Heaven Family are separate and distinct entities. If you claim otherwise, then I outright DEMAND you answer Quexinos' related question. If its a family of friends, what are Marlene's sins? Hmm? Answer it or I WILL consider your failure to do so to be a concession on this point and never acknowledge any other claim from you again. Because frankly I genuinely AM tired of some of this disingenuous bullshit.

I've also seen very few answers to these points:
1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense.

As always, you fail to see the humor in that article. Ryu has explained it and yet it continues to sail unobstructed over many a Clerith's head. Sad. As for "default versions of variable scenes" which is where you really go wrong here...

But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

You don't see it because you don't wanna. It SHOULD be a "no shit Sherlock" moment, for YOU. It isn't because much like Holmes himself, you only see and learn about what you want. He ignored anything he could have learned that was not related to crime solving, you ignore everything that clearly evidences a final conclusion to the LTD because you know it didn't come out your way. Also, again, version agnostic blah blah. Ryu said it, I've reminded people he said it, we've rephrased it, we've repeated it, it goes on and on. The distinguished opposition doesn't seem to get it or even acknowledge it... because they don't want to.

And that is the SOLE REASON we're still doing this.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

It does have relevance and bearing, and since it crops up in many many places besides just the FTOIL page your entire point there is without foundation anyway. Deal.

2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be default/canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith.

Fixed that for ya. Default =!= canon. The FTOIL page does indeed point out that there are four possible dates and does nothing to nail down which one happens, and I congratulate you for not immediately calling out the "Clerith date pic" as is the norm in this thread. On the other hand, we've seen the event under the Highwind nailed down a lot. On the page in question and elsewhere.

So if the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does it also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud’s date (even though in other places SE says the Clerith date is canon)?

The FTOIL page is not soley responsible for making the HAHW scene canon. We're actually inferring that because the HAHW scene is what shows the events we have been explicitly told MANY TIMES happened that night. And again, the Clerith date is default and easiest to get. Where were you told "this is what happened!" regarding the date? And again, even if it is... how does that in any way mitigate what happened after the date? Specifically Cloud and Tifa, under the Highwind/moving in together/adopting kids/forming a family/belonging together/being able to get by because "I have you this time" and so on?!

I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what? Is the FTOIL page the final word regarding the Highwind scene but not Cloud's date?

So... where on the FTOIL page does it give info on Cloud's date that could supersede anything? Really, all it says is "one of four things happen here." That can't over-rule any other info because it confirms nothing. The FTOIL page is not the final word either, but it is just another in a long string of confirmation as to what happened when the party disbanded the night before the final battle. It is a PART of what shows and establishes canon.

If you argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, can’t you also argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional?

SE does, after-all, point out the optionality of the Highwind scene on three separate occasions.

I really wonder why I am still subjecting myself to this. Have we not answered this question enough? Have we not provided enough opportunities for the answers to soak in?

It seems that SE says one thing one place and then something completely different in another place. They aren't consistent with either the Highwind scene or Cloud's date. So whose to determine what supersedes what?

They're pretty damn consistent about what went down under the Highwind. We've pointed it out. We counted the number of explicitly romantic quotes referring to Cloud and Tifa on the ocassion in question. If its not getting through to you, it never will. So why, then, are we still being asked this?

Maybe EVERYTHING that is variable remains variable?

Or no, maybe it doesn't. Yeah, that seems likely actually. What with Vincent and Yuffie being optional and their scenes thus being variable... yet we know exactly what happened with them. So no, not everything that WAS variable IS variable. The variations got cut off in some cases.

And maybe, just maybe, that’s because SE believes the love triangle is up to interpretation and doesn't want to make either pairing canon?

Wishful thinking don't fail me now! But no, the LTD is dead. Its lifetimer went empty and popped into oblivion to make way for some other silly internet debate. Canon has been established, and the only reason we're still at this is because some refuse to see it.

3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti’s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I’d argue that the other times the HAHW scene has been used it was simply being used as a placeholder.

Of course you would. Of course we will then remind you that the date with Tifa (can we actually stop calling them "Clerith date" and "Cloti date" forever and remember that Cloud is oblivious and thus the mutuality implied by cute shipping names is absent now?) is referenced all over Ultimanias and the like as well. Which further cements any direct reference to the date sequence and who showed up as A.) a discussion of character specific interactions or B.) essentially a place holder. As for the Highwind scene? Well as has been described for you, that one is just a tiny bit different from the dates.

So, I was right. There was genuinely NOTHING new or relevant to be found in this lengthy post. I apologized to you BB, if not for being rude then at least for being a different kind of rude than I intended. Do I get an apology now for the colossal waste of my time this post was? How about the inherent rudeness of your complete failure to recognize that all of your points have been addressed, rebutted, and dealt with before? I doubt it, honestly. But alas, that is the fate of we happy few who debate silly fictional shit on the interwebs

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Dante - Aerith did move on from Zack eventually yeah, there are plenty of quotes in the materials and such to back this up but that doesn't mean she can't/doesn't still carry a soft spot for him in her heart just as I think Cloud will always have his soft spot for Aerith but yeah.

Also not to be difficult here peeps but isn't Cait Sith's line at the end "I'll be your matchmaker, preacher, whatever you want me to be" i.e the preacher suggesting the wedding and doesn't the Ultimanias mention something about a wedding as well? Something about it being a sad/tragic thing inlight of what happened to Aerith later but if you looked at it another way maybe you could see hope? I might be misrembering or have my quotes/information/lines from different lines from stuffs all muddled up but yeah

 

[BlankBeat]

How about the inherent rudeness of your complete failure to recognize that all of your points have been addressed, rebutted, and dealt with before?

Every "rebuttal" to my posts has also been responded to numerous times by Clerith's. I've heard all of your "rebuttals" before and they are completely and utterly incorrect (IMO).

Do I have the time to respond to multiple posts and engage in a debate where it's 1 person versus 10? No, I don't. I simply came here to express my point-of-view and provide some food for thought, but I never expected to get the last word considering the amount of Cloti's that frequent TLS.

But I'd like to point this out:
There are numerous posts in numerous threads by numerous users throughout the CxA forums that have refuted Tres' LTD analysis. He has yet to respond to numerous posts that have literally taken everything he's said and refuted it point-by-point.

But just because he has faced numerous responses that he has yet to answer, I'm guessing he continues to believe Cloti is canon. The same can be said for me and my opinions.

Just because YOU post a response to my post does NOT mean my post is invalid. It simply means you've responded to my post with your opinion. Both my post and your rebuttal are opinions, neither are fact.

i hate to break it to you, but your responses (along with all other responses in this forum) are simply opinions. Your opinion is not fact. No rebuttal to my post is fact. And getting the last word does not mean you are necessarily correct, just ask Tres. Multiple users on the CxA forums have gotten the last word with him, yet I'm sure he believes their responses are invalid (even though they got the last word and he has yet to respond). Tres can say he's already refuted their points a million time and doesn't have the time to debate them, but I bet they'd say the same thing to him. Everyone is using opinions in this debate.

Honestly...you seem to be rather arrogant. And yes, I'm sure you'll play the victim and say I'm a hypocrite for insulting you after I called you out for being condescending/rude. But I don't know what else to call someone who thinks their rebuttals are facts instead of opinions. It seems that many at TLS believe that those here are the final word on the LTD (ROFL). Let me suggest getting out of your bubble. Stop thinking so highly of yourself.

Every single thing you posted in your "rebuttal" I have a response to. But considering how you've treated me, you are simply not worth my time. Call this an easy way out, but I never expected to get the last word in this thread considering this is a Cloti paradise. Just know that everything that has been said in this forum and on this site has been responded to and refuted -- sometimes in places that are not viewable to the public at large.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Just know that everything that has been said in this forum and on this site has been responded to and refuted -- sometimes in places that are not viewable to the public at large.

Then post them. It's rude to enter a debate, tell everyone that their arguments are simply opinions then say their points have been rebutted elsewhere.

Are those rebuttals facts? Because opinions cannot be rebuttals and rebuttals cannot be opinions.

You ignored all the offers I gave for a one on one debate so things would be easier for you.

Blankbeat, I know you might be overwhelmed to the amount of response and you're just alone, but if you want to debate with only one or two people, you can tell us and we can honor your request. We can't stop people from reacting though. But still, welcome here and have fun. ^__^

You know Blankbeat, I know it's tough to reply to everyone here so I understand that it could be the reason why you didn't directly address the rebuttals given to you. So I'm suggesting this for the benefit of the people who are following the debate and are eager to see you reply to those arguments: choose a person or two whose arguments you will reply directly so that there is a direct clash and clear communication between the different sides.

To not to stress you too much, I'll be giving minimal answers as much as possible.

I TOLD YOU THAT YOU CAN DEBATE ONE PERSON SO YOU WON'T FEEL OUTNUMBERED. We actually can wait if if you want to take time to write your response, that's why this thread had no post for about a month before you came. That's how patient we are.

When you ask for a debate, this is the consequence. Exiting like this might be rude or frustrating to people, but in the end, the failure to address multiple arguments takes the toll on your side, not the on other.

This is why I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again. Just because you're one person and we're many that automatically means we're at fault, and we're not a hive mind that thinks the same things we're not uniting to swamp you. If you look at the old threads we're also disagreeing with ourselves. I admire your bravery but I honestly don't like your attitude.