The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Celes Chere]

there is no Zerith love

H-how dare you!

something that was called a "destined" encounter.

It was also called an accident. Zack and Aerith were never described that way, from the start it was called "falling quickly into a crush" that turned into a sincere love. We never get that sort of description between Cloudand Aerith.

hence, they are not "their"

Technically yeah - Marlene is Barret's kid, and Denzel is an orphan. However many times they are called a family. Tifa is called the Mother to *their* family (their meaning she and Cloud) in the Ultimania. While Barret was away, yes they formed their own bonds with the two children. They created their own family. It doesn't make Barret any less of a father, but the Ultimania makes many references to the FOUR of them as family.

When it says that their feelings match in the caption, that could also be a reference to either version.

It says they share mutual feelings and start a family together... Tifa loved Cloud then (in both versions), apparently the feeling is mutual. There's just no way around that... at all. And it makes no sense to say they started a family and started living together because they had 'low affections' for one another.

 

[Madame Mayor]

In fact, when Tifa's affection for Cloud is low, then Cloud's affetion for Tifa is low. So their feelings still match in the Low Affection version.

Her affection isn't low, her confidence is. Big difference. Cloud's confidence is low in both and he needs Tifa to kind of push the conversation along before he realizes she feels the same way he does. Remember, she finds out he cares about her and that he will be so happy to find out she loves him, however Cloud doesn't exactly remember that part.

If you aren't nice to Tifa during the game, she doesn't feel confident enough to express her feelings properly. If you are, then the 'mutual feelings' are revealed, hence high affection being the canon version of the game.

 

[Splintered]

Notice something?
Denzel is the one who sees Cloud (and Tifa) as his parents.
However, I'm talking about Cloud seeing himself as a father to those two children.
I'm very sure that Denzel feels a parental bond to Cloud (I think he said that himself somewhere in the novels); however, I don't think Cloud thinks of himself as a father to anyone.
This means that Cloud is seen as a father to both children through another ones eye, but that he is at the same time rather depicted as a child himself to Tifa.
So maybe Denzel sees himself as Clouds and Tifas child, and Tifa certainly thinks of herself as the childrens mother, but Cloud certainly not thinks of himself as a father - hence, they are not "their" children but mostly Tifas (and Barrets) children.

Do people seriously see as Cloud not wanting to be with his family. Despite the fact that the end scenes are with Cloud and his family, yes somewhat distant, but he's still there, and this is after his troubles so this is when he gets his head screwed on straight. It's not that he didn't want to be there or didn't want to be part of the family, he just lost the confidence for it. He explains to Tifa that he does love Marlene, but he doesn't understand how to related to her.

AC/C even gives him an extra scene where he is with Denzel, taking him to Zack's graveyard, a place that's probably just as sacred to him as the church. COT shows him plenty of times interacting and teaching the children. What made him leave the family wasn't that he didn't want to be with them, it was because he felt he failed them when he got Geostigma.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

And Barret isn't even a part of the family. So you can't leave the father-role to him.

Wait, what? Barret is not part of the family?
...Have you read the novels...?
* Barret remains to be Marlenes father. Therefore, he is part of the family.
* Tifa sees her friends as her family; therefore, the whole party (if present) would be - well - her family. This is said twice: first in Case of Tifa and second in her Duodecim profile.
* Barret himself says that Marlene shall keep the family together while he is absent.

Neither woman is a 'mother' to Cloud.

Well, this is not true. While it was said both Tifa and Aerith have maternal aspects on them, it was said that Tifas maternal side is different because she also has this maternal bond with Cloud; therefore, Aerith hasn't got this "maternal bond" with Cloud, making only Tifa the one with the maternal bond.
But you are right: even if Tifa feels this maternal bond towards Cloud, this doesn't mean she doesn't love him in a romantic way. As explained, this "maternal bond" is just a facette of her whole emotions towards him.

Wouldn't that make the caption even more confusing if they're not referring to romantic love? They have all the other couples of Final Fantasy on that page, but Cloud and Tifa is supposed to be the singular exception to the mutual love between those couples?

...? Am I confusing something? The High Version was the romantic one, right? So if it's listed under the section "To the One I Love", then it's romantic, right? So Cloud and Tifa wouldn't be an exception.

H-how dare you!

Ahh, I'm sorry, it wasn't me who decided this...

It was also called an accident. Zack and Aerith were never described that way, from the start it was called "falling quickly into a crush" that turned into a sincere love. We never get that sort of description between Cloudand Aerith.

And nevertheless, it was also called a "destined encounter".
Also, can you guess why Cloud and Aerith weren't said to be "falling in love"? Right - because it's optional to the player. This is the reason why Cloud has never announced his feelings for neither Aerith nor Tifa in an explicit way.

However many times they are called a family.

Oh yeah, they are a family. And do you know what was said, too?
That Tifa sees her friends as a family. Twice. So, yes, they are a family. With or without Barret being absent, it doesn't matter. They always are a family.

It says they share mutual feelings and start a family together... Tifa loved Cloud then (in both versions), apparently the feeling is mutual. There's just no way around that... at all. And it makes no sense to say they started a family and started living together because they had 'low affections' for one another.

So, when the Low Affection takes place, it means that Tifa has got low affection for Cloud, and Cloud shares these feelings in the Low Scene - therefore, their feelings are mutual in both scenes.
So, your point is that Cloud wouldn't live in the same house with Tifa if he wasn't in a romantic relationship with her? Why? Tifa formerly lived with Wedge, Biggs, and Jessie in one house and was happy, too.
Besides, Cloud hasn't got anyone to go to, and Barret is the same - so why wouldn't they live in the same house?

Her affection isn't low, her confidence is.

Wait. That isn't true. It was clearly said that "if Tifas affection rating is low, then the conversation ends apathetic and quick." So not just her confidence is low, but her affection.

Do people seriously see as Cloud not wanting to be with his family

Are you twisting my quote? I said that Cloud doesn't feel as a father towards Denzel and Marlene, not that he doesn't want to spend time with them. Tifa is his best friend and can also be a love interest if one wants to, and Denzel is very dear to him, so why wouldn't he like to spend time with them?
It was even said officially - the more time he spends with them, the more he fears losing them.

It's not that he didn't want to be there or didn't want to be part of the family, he just lost the confidence for it.

Exactly.

 

[Splintered]

Are you twisting my quote?

No, that's what I thought you were implying. If you weren't that's my bad.

It was even said officially - the more time he spends with them, the more he fears losing them.

But that doesn't mean he doesn't have paternal feelings for Denzel. It's quite obvious that they aren't exactly the normal family, but everything points to them having a family dynamic. Cloud also has feelings of that, it's just that he's also scared of his own failures. But that fear doesn't negate the feeling of family. Tifa also has fears that their family but that doesn't mean she lost her maternal instinct.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

* Tifa sees her friends as her family; therefore, the whole party (if present) would be - well - her family.

This one part of your post, I agree with. I figure Cloud finally comes to the same resolution at the end of AC/C, which is why he has a new photo on his desk featuring the entire party plus the kids. But you'll note, he didn't replace the original family photo, just added a new one.

As for Barrett being a part of the family because he "stayed" as you put it... no, he left on a trip in CoB to atone, and eventually to find oil and shit. He is still Marlene's dad, he's still family to Cloud and Tifa as are all the party members... but he is not, for the time period covered by the film, part of the nuclear family unit that we're discussing atm.

I shall leave it to others here to explain how incorrect most everything else you said was Lady, as they will no doubt be more capable. And because I utterly lack the patience to repeat facts that have already been spelled out multiple times already when I know how unlikely you are to listen this time. You didn't before, after all.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

No, that's what I thought you were implying. If you weren't that's my bad.

I didn't. No need to worry^^

But that doesn't mean he doesn't have paternal feelings for Denzel. It's quite obvious that they aren't exactly the normal family, but everything points to them having a family dynamic. Cloud also has feelings of that, it's just that he's also scared of his own failures. But that fear doesn't negate the feeling of family. Tifa also has fears that their family but that doesn't mean she lost her maternal instinct.

The thing is that Cloud was never said to have paternal feelings to any of the kids. He was always referred to as a "big child". In addition, there is his lacking self-confidence, always saying that he can't protect anyone. So if he isn't said to have paternal feelings anywhere, and if he his called a kid and even compared to two kids, then that does imply that he doesn't feel paternal feelings to Denzel or Marlene.
Yet.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

* Barret remains to be Marlenes father. Therefore, he is part of the family.

"Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family." - Cloud's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

How come Barret is never mentioned when they talk about the family?
And shouldn't he be a part of their family photo and everything? Well, he's not. And why? Because he doesn't live there. He isn't a part of the family.

* Tifa sees her friends as her family; therefore, the whole party (if present) would be - well - her family. This is said twice: first in Case of Tifa and second in her Duodecim profile.

Show me the quotes.

Anyway, yes. Marlene is Barret's daughter. She stays with Cloud and Tifa, as her "temporary parents". Lol, you really made this more complicated than it is.

What happened with Barret after AC btw?

 

[Lady Lifestream]

He is still Marlene's dad, he's still family to Cloud and Tifa as are all the party members... but he is not, for the time period covered by the film, part of the nuclear family unit that we're discussing atm.

Agreed.

I shall leave it to others here to explain how incorrect most everything else you said was Lady, as they will no doubt be more capable. I shall leave it to others here to explain how incorrect most everything else you said was Lady, as they will no doubt be more capable. And because I utterly lack the patience to repeat facts that have already been spelled out multiple times already when I know how unlikely you are to listen this time. You didn't before, after all.

Calm down, dear Devil, I can't await that. Tell me what's incorrect about my statements. Again and again. Maybe we'll come to a conclusion, just don't give up hope.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Show me the quotes.

Okiedokie.

First, from Case of Tifa: "Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family."
Second, from her Duodecim profile: "A friendly woman who cares for her friends like a family."

How come Barret is never mentioned when they talk about the family?

He is mentioned; once in Tifas Dirge of Cerberus profile where it's said that she keeps in close contact with both Barret and Cloud. Second, it's mentioned somewhere, I will find the quote for you if you wait for it.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Okiedokie.

First, from Case of Tifa: "Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family."
Second, from her Duodecim profile: "A friendly woman who cares for her friends like a family."

Thank you.

He is mentioned; once in Tifas Dirge of Cerberus profile where it's said that she keeps in close contact with both Barret and Cloud. Second, it's mentioned somewhere, I will find the quote for you if you wait for it.

Right. But if it just says that she keeps in contact with them both, it doesn't really prove anything..? :S

 

[Lady Lifestream]

I got the quote. It's from Case of Barret:
"Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions."

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Right. But if it just says that she keeps in contact with them both, it doesn't really prove anything..? :S

Agreed, I just thought you might wanted to know. The one I mentioned is the quote I posted above.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I got the quote. It's from Case of Barret:
"Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions."

Thank you, again. Well then, I agree with you.
I just want to add one thing. Doesn't Barret see the family as his, since he came up with the idea?

 

[Splintered]

The thing is that Cloud was never said to have paternal feelings to any of the kids. He was always referred to as a "big child". In addition, there is his lacking self-confidence, always saying that he can't protect anyone. So if he isn't said to have paternal feelings anywhere, and if he his called a kid and even compared to two kids, then that does imply that he doesn't feel paternal feelings to Denzel or Marlene.
Yet.

This is Cloud, he rarely references anything directly. The closest thing he got is about his guilt when he asks for forgiveness. The only person that may have a harder time spitting out what's on their mind is, well, Tifa.

People get his character by looking at his character or exposition from other characters. I mean, if not for Marlene explaining it to Cloud (and thus explaining it for the audience), we wouldn't even understand the trigger for his leaving 7th Heaven.

But in COT, Cloud clearly wants to raise Denzel, he helps teach them about different places, he's clearly taking on a paternal role. It's not a conventional one of course, and he has his childish moments, but it's also one that fairly clear just by his actions. Denzel doesn't once call Tifa mom, that doesn't mean she's not a maternal figure.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Doesn't Barret see the family as his, since he came up with the idea?

Now that you say it... I think this could be true. Since he was the one who mentioned the term family first.
Good point, thank you! :3

This is Cloud, he rarely references anything directly. The closest thing he got is about his guilt when he asks for forgiveness. The only person that may have a harder time spitting out what's on their mind is, well, Tifa.

True, true!

People get his character by looking at his character or exposition from other characters. I mean, if not for Marlene explaining it to Cloud (and thus explaining it for the audience), we wouldn't even understand the trigger for his leaving 7th Heaven.

Well, I agree with the part that we can mostly understand him through the view of others; however, the reason why he left the 7th Heaven was only clarified with use of the Ultimanias.

But in COT, Cloud clearly wants to raise Denzel, he helps teach them about different places, he's clearly taking on a paternal role.

I would rather say that he wants to spend time with Denzel; a parental role is never mentioned, only by Tifa, and she was the one who also thought Cloud would be a big kid. Also, she isn't best at understanding him...

Denzel doesn't once call Tifa mom, that doesn't mean she's not a maternal figure.

However, Tifa was called a mother towards Denzel and Marlene while Cloud wasn't ever called a father except through Tifas eyes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Lady Lifestream, please stop double posting.

Anastar, or any other Clerith, the next time your post is put into the mod queue, please notify an active mod. We see your posts regardless, and it's easy to miss the 'this is a moderated message' emblem.

And I'll respond later in full, but there's at least one thing in my post that your response to Tres didn't cover- Making a positive case for your own side. No amount of tearing down C/T validates C/A.
First principles. No assuming the consequent. Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary evidence. Go go go.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Now that you say it... I think this could be true. Since he was the one who mentioned the term family first.
Good point, thank you! :3

Yeah, that's the impression I got.

Also, she isn't best at understanding him...

Actually, she does understand him the best.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Huh, I actually thanked the post I am quoting, its nice to have the urge to do that with the "opposition" now and then. Thanks for that Lady Lifestream. But there are two things I feel the need to mention:

Well, I agree with the part that we can mostly understand him through the view of others; however, the reason why he left the 7th Heaven was only clarified with use of the Ultimanias.

In addition to the Ultimanias, which are helpful with regards to Cloud's reason for going off to camp in the church, there is the scene in ACC with Marlene giving a more direct route to knowing his reasoning. And doing her ultimate impression of Barrett in the process, which is just adorable.

I would rather say that he wants to spend time with Denzel; a parental role is never mentioned, only by Tifa, and she was the one who also thought Cloud would be a big kid. Also, she isn't best at understanding him...

Tifa has a better grasp of Cloud's feeling and thoughts than just about anyone. Cloud himself sometimes seems to know himself less well than she. In addition, simply because Tifa is the only one to specifically use the word "father" to describe Cloud's relationship with Denzel hardly proves that Cloud has no paternal feelings to the boy. Cloud, as has been mentioned, isn't much one for spelling these things out with words. He acts very much like a father, albeit a young and inexperienced one. When you're talking about Cloud, actions speak a shit-load louder than words.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Lady Lifestream, please stop double posting.

I'm sorry, I also thought this wouldn't be okay, but I (hell!) can't find the 'edit' button.
...Someone could tell me...?

Actually, she does understand him the best.

I hadn't got that impression... and wasn't there one quote saying: "Even though Tifa knew Cloud for a long time, she still can't understand the innermost parts of his personality, and that makes her feel uneasy..."?
Doesn't sound as if she is understanding him best...

In addition to the Ultimanias, which are helpful with regards to Cloud's reason for going off to camp in the church, there is the scene in ACC with Marlene giving a more direct route to knowing his reasoning.

And this is contradicting the Ultimania reason/giving another impression to the viewer? Also, this is Marlenes point of view, so maybe it can't be seen to be of such a gread validity to counter an official statement.

Tifa has a better grasp of Cloud's feeling and thoughts than just about anyone.

I think I said something about that above...

Cloud himself sometimes seems to know himself less well than she.

It mostly seems like she is assuming something he doesn't want to directly deny.

In addition, simply because Tifa is the only one to specifically use the word "father" to describe Cloud's relationship with Denzel hardly proves that Cloud has no paternal feelings to the boy.

However, it was said that Tifa doesn't understand him well, and even has to wonder if the smile he gave her at some time was faked or not.

When you're talking about Cloud, actions speak a shit-load louder than words.

If his actions tell the viewer so explicit that he is a father towards Denzel, then I think it should have been mentioned somewhere.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Wait, I just realized something!

"A friendly woman who cares for her friends like a family."

I think they might be talking about her friends in Duodecim here, not in the real FFVII world. Derp.

I hadn't got that impression... and wasn't there one quote saying: "Even though Tifa knew Cloud for a long time, she still can't understand the innermost parts of his personality, and that makes her feel uneasy..."?
Doesn't sound as if she is understanding him best...

There is a quote that says that she understands Cloud all too well.

Oh, here we go:
"Apart from being Cloud's childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him." - Tifa's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

 

[Homura Akemi]

Wait, I just realized something!

I think they might be talking about her friends in Duodecim here, not in the real FFVII world. Derp.

She doesn't remember any one from her world in Duodecim, so they must be talking about the friends she made in Duodecim not FF7 world

 

[Tina Armstrong]

She doesn't remember any one from her world in Duodecim, so they must be talking about the friends she made in Duodecim not FF7 world

You mean in the FFVII world?
Well.... it can't be used as an evidence then.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm sorry, I also thought this wouldn't be okay, but I (hell!) can't find the 'edit' button.
...Someone could tell me...?

Sure, it should be right at the bottom of each of your posts, lower right corner.

I hadn't got that impression... and wasn't there one quote saying: "Even though Tifa knew Cloud for a long time, she still can't understand the innermost parts of his personality, and that makes her feel uneasy..."?
Doesn't sound as if she is understanding him best...

I don't personally recall the quote you speak of, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The multitude of other quotes that say she understands him (such as the one provided for you above my post), that she is the only one he opens his heart to (provided multiple times in this thread), etc, plus her taking a trip through his head all pretty much say she understands him either way.

And this is contradicting the Ultimania reason/giving another impression to the viewer? Also, this is Marlenes point of view, so maybe it can't be seen to be of such a gread validity to counter an official statement.

I think you misunderstood me there (unless I am misunderstanding you). Marlene's view and what's said in the Ultimania match, as far as I know, both confirming that Cloud left because he got sick. Her little "how is a man supposed to protect his family if he cannot even protect himself?!" impression of her dad just makes it clear and direct (and makes it easy to understand if you do not have access to the Ultimania as well of course).

However, it was said that Tifa doesn't understand him well, and even has to wonder if the smile he gave her at some time was faked or not.

I'd like to think I understand my girl. Doesn't mean I wouldn't start to wonder if she had just been humoring me, if she were to take off without a word. Tifa understands him fine, but that doesn't mean she's omniscient about all things Cloud and no one should expect her to be.

If his actions tell the viewer so explicit that he is a father towards Denzel, then I think it should have been mentioned somewhere.

Does SE have to spell out every aspect of everything for it to be true? Are we, as fans, incapable of reading between the lines where these things are concerned? He acts like a father as near as I can tell, right up to the point where he lets his issues overwhelm him and he takes off. That says father to me. What does it say to you, if not "father and son?"

 

[Homura Akemi]

You mean in the FFVII world?
Well.... it can't be used as an evidence then.

You haven't played Dissidia Duodecim?
she doesn't know Cloud or Sephiroth