The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Dante - Aerith did move on from Zack eventually yeah, there are plenty of quotes in the materials and such to back this up but that doesn't mean she can't/doesn't still carry a soft spot for him in her heart just as I think Cloud will always have his soft spot for Aerith but yeah.

Also not to be difficult here peeps but isn't Cait Sith's line at the end "I'll be your matchmaker, preacher, whatever you want me to be" i.e the preacher suggesting the wedding and doesn't the Ultimanias mention something about a wedding as well? Something about it being a sad/tragic thing inlight of what happened to Aerith later but if you looked at it another way maybe you could see hope? I might be misrembering or have my quotes/information/lines from different lines from stuffs all muddled up but yeah

Yes, you are correct:

"Cait Sith’s lines which predict Cloud and Aerith’s wedding now becomes more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

“Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward.” ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

A wedding inherently implies mutual romantic feelings. Therefore, Aerith’s death would only make a wedding prediction ‘more painful’ if romantic feelings were mutual. If romantic feelings were only one-sided, a wedding prediction would not become ‘more painful’ because what’s sad and/or painful about a wedding not occurring if only one person is in love? It only becomes a painful and/or sad prediction, in my opinion, if two people who had mutual romantic feelings were prevented from marrying.

The only way a wedding prediction would be viewed as more painful after someone dies is if they had the potential to get married, and the marriage seemed like a likely possibility. Marriage inherently implies mutual romance, and given the context of the game (hero wavering between two heroines, love triangle) it is not hard to see what SE was trying to convey to the gamer through this prediction -- Cloud and Aerith had the potential for a marriage BECAUSE they had a mutual romance, but it becomes a painful prediction when Aerith dies because it prevented this mutual romance from becoming a marriage.

So, IMO, it is clear —after Aerith’s fate— why a wedding prediction would become “sad” and “more painful”; it prevented a mutual romance from blossoming into a marriage.

And although SE is always ambiguous about their infamous love triangle (“And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.” ~10th Anniversary Ultimania), it is not hard to see this prediction for what it is. SE’s intent for including this in the game and then calling it a "wedding prediction" that becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death is very clear. They wanted to provide even more evidence to support the mutual romance between Cloud x Aerith.

And just for the record, I'm not saying there isn't evidence that supports Cloti (because I realize this is a love triangle where the hero wavers) but I think the fact that SE decided to include a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith speaks volumes about what they wanted to convey to the gamer. Especially when they point out that it becomes more painful after Aerith's death.

It is also clear to most people why SE included all of the other in-game Clerith moments, especially considering the context (love triangle, hero wavering between two heroines, etc.). But I've already listed those moments and provided the quotes in my previous posts. I'd highly suggest looking at all of these moments together instead of separately, and I'd also look at them under the lense of a love triangle and a hero wavering between two heroines. I've also pointed out why Cloud not completely being himself during these moments is completely irrelevant and doesn't negate those moments from contributing to Cloud's love for Aerith.

 

[Strangelove]

To be needlessly pedantic (the best kind), if you can't say for sure what 'feelings' are being talked about in the Highwind scene, why are 'mysterious feelings' somehow a sign of romance? If you said "I have feelings for him" then people are going to take that to mean romantic feelings, even if it's not spelt out completely. But a mysterious feeling? (Forgetting for now the context of 'feelings' for the Cloud/Tifa quote).

And how is Cloud at peace in Aerith's church in AC? He doesn't really seem to be much better off at all. Is this a quote from a book or something?

References to the high affection scene:

The story playback in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania (checked in the revised edition) uses this screenshot for the reference to revealing and confirming their feelings:

This line ('this might be the last time we have' or whatever it was) is from the high affection version, in the low affection version it's just "......". That was the one they picked for the story playback, which didn't include mentions of any variables.

“Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in “FFVII” as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.” ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix

This is from the Crisis Core Complete Guide, not the Ultimania.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But I'd like to point this out:
There are numerous posts in numerous threads by numerous users throughout the CxA forums that have refuted Tres' LTD analysis. He has yet to respond to numerous posts that have literally taken everything he's said and refuted it point-by-point.

If you're referring to the analysis on the front page here at TheLifestream.net, that has been outdated for a very long time and I've told people to stop picking it apart and expecting a response. If you're referring to the most recent published version of it in my Plot Analysis FAQ, that is outdated as well, and I have been saying for nearly a year and a half that it is undergoing revision.

In either case, I engaged many a person on CxA at length. Even when my offline life kept me too busy to even come here for several months (I actually stepped down as a staffer due to the fact), I kept my promise to Anastar to return and respond to her last posts from before I got busy. I've not left anyone hanging over there (in fact, I was left hanging in that thread about the Art Museum cards).

At any point when a debate came to an end, I announced my departure and it was clear that I would be unlikely to see follow-ups posted at a later date. I haven't even read whether there were any responses to my final post on that forum, nor will I, as I refuse to go back after the intellectually deceptive way I was dicked around with.

Just because YOU post a response to my post does NOT mean my post is invalid. It simply means you've responded to my post with your opinion. Both my post and your rebuttal are opinions, neither are fact.

i hate to break it to you, but your responses (along with all other responses in this forum) are simply opinions. Your opinion is not fact. No rebuttal to my post is fact.

Yet those posts are full of facts, many of which (e.g. again, the commercial bullshit and the "engraved" quote) you refuse to acknowledge. Not that me saying this matters, because you'll just pretend this text is not in this post, the same as you have pretended those facts were not stated.

And it's that disrespectful, insulting, spineless, dishonest, bullshit way of "debating" that makes everyone here dislike you and revel in ridiculing you.

 

[Strangelove]

"engraved"

The problem I have with stuff like this (which kind of relates to what I was talking about here) is that even after a counter has been brought up, either by way of the official translations (which I thought were meant to be definitive but I guess only in select cases am i right?) or examples of the usage of the phrase, that argument has taken on a life of it's own. It 'walks alone' (一人歩&#12365. And doesn't take the opposing arguments with it. So when someone sees it reposted on Final Fantasy Forum #19867 they just see the original argument, and then they go off to other sites and use the same argument, and someone else sees it and does the same.

So you end up having to debate the same points over and over because there is no unified list of every talking point and the arguments for both sides. Which makes it seem like there's no real point saying anything, because people (even the ones you have said this to directly at times) don't retain it.

They will, however, jump on any new point (note how 'I hope so too' is now canon thanks to recent findings, amongst the outdated arguments). But anything that disproves or doesn't support the platform gets forgotten and everyone goes back to the old arguments again.

 

[Dashell]

do we know what Marlene's sins are yet?

 

[Strangelove]

crimes against fashion

 

[Dante]

Dante - Aerith did move on from Zack eventually yeah, there are plenty of quotes in the materials and such to back this up but that doesn't mean she can't/doesn't still carry a soft spot for him in her heart just as I think Cloud will always have his soft spot for Aerith but yeah.

Also not to be difficult here peeps but isn't Cait Sith's line at the end "I'll be your matchmaker, preacher, whatever you want me to be" i.e the preacher suggesting the wedding and doesn't the Ultimanias mention something about a wedding as well? Something about it being a sad/tragic thing inlight of what happened to Aerith later but if you looked at it another way maybe you could see hope? I might be misrembering or have my quotes/information/lines from different lines from stuffs all muddled up but yeah

I totally agree. I believe that Zerith is a cute couple from CC but I think that even though she moved on to Cloud, she will probably always have a soft spot for him. I think this is Cait Sith's fortune:

Aeris: "Hmm, let's see how compatible Cloud and I are!"
Cait Sith: "That'll cost ya. Exactly one date! Here I go! This isn't good. I can't say it. Poor Tifa."
Aeris: "No! Tell me! I promise I won't get mad!"
Cait Sith: "Is that so? Then I'll tell you. Looks good. You are perfect for each other! Aeris' star and Cloud's star! They show a great future! Cloud, I'll be your matchmaker, preacher... I'll do whatever you want me to! You just call me when it all happens!"


Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith’s compatibility.The result of it turns out as, “Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!” [PG. 151, FVII Ultimania Omega]


I am not sure if this is an exact quote but I think this might be what you are referring to. I always think this was a sweet fortune even though we know that Aerith has passed on so they can't wed its part of the reason I think that's its so romantic that Aerith will always be in Cloud's heart and that he can feel her presence like in AC.

​

 

[Ryushikaze]

Do you think she's over Zack cause I think Case of Lifestream would seem to indicate that? I think its easier to understand both sides since I like both Cloti and Clerith.

No...ish. I also don't think you need to be over and old love to fall in love with someone else. I figure Aerith was trying to be over him, it just didn't stick just yet.

What intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon? Really, just what the hell even are you talking about there? Is it his "I...we're here for you" line? Cause if that's a confession, my name is [insert extremely unlikely name here] the third.

Inigo Montoya

Dante - Aerith did move on from Zack eventually yeah, there are plenty of quotes in the materials and such to back this up but that doesn't mean she can't/doesn't still carry a soft spot for him in her heart just as I think Cloud will always have his soft spot for Aerith but yeah.

Tried to move on, yes.. Did move on... questionable, unless one takes Maiden.

Also not to be difficult here peeps but isn't Cait Sith's line at the end "I'll be your matchmaker, preacher, whatever you want me to be" i.e the preacher suggesting the wedding and doesn't the Ultimanias mention something about a wedding as well? Something about it being a sad/tragic thing inlight of what happened to Aerith later but if you looked at it another way maybe you could see hope? I might be misrembering or have my quotes/information/lines from different lines from stuffs all muddled up but yeah

He tells them he'll be their matchmaker or preacher, yes, but that was not actually part of the prediction and his predictions are notoriously innacurate by word of god.

Every single thing you posted in your "rebuttal" I have a response to. But considering how you've treated me, you are simply not worth my time. Call this an easy way out, but I never expected to get the last word in this thread considering this is a Cloti paradise. Just know that everything that has been said in this forum and on this site has been responded to and refuted -- sometimes in places that are not viewable to the public at large.

Ah, the Secret Clerith strongholds! I'd almost forgotten those existed!
Egads are they pathetic. I wonder how many still have moles in them.

Yes, you are correct:

"Cait Sith’s lines which predict Cloud and Aerith’s wedding now becomes more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

“Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward.” ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

A wedding inherently implies mutual romantic feelings. Therefore, Aerith’s death would only make a wedding prediction ‘more painful’ if romantic feelings were mutual. If romantic feelings were only one-sided, a wedding prediction would not become ‘more painful’ because what’s sad and/or painful about a wedding not occurring if only one person is in love? It only becomes a painful and/or sad prediction, in my opinion, if two people who had mutual romantic feelings were prevented from marrying.

This paragraph, your first paragraph, is the one where you lose the plot. Cait Sith's lighthearted 'Bring me to the wedding' prediction is all the more tragic in retrospect because IT PREDICTED A BRIGHT AND HAPPY FUTURE FOR THE GIRL WHO GOT MURDERED, not because a fuckdamn wedding won't happen

I don't even need to respond to the rest of this shit because you are arguing that a fake fortune teller telling someone 'You're gonna get MARRIED' right before they die can't be tragic unless there was a real chance of a wedding? Bullshit.



Also, Dante, just remember, Aerith is in other folk's hearts too, and Marlene can feel her presence as well.
Also, I don't think she 'moved on' with Cloud, though she tried to.

 

[Dante]

No...ish. I also don't think you need to be over and old love to fall in love with someone else. I figure Aerith was trying to be over him, it just didn't stick just yet.



Inigo Montoya



Tried to move on, yes.. Did move on... questionable, unless one takes Maiden.



He tells them he'll be their matchmaker or preacher, yes, but that was not actually part of the prediction and his predictions are notoriously innacurate by word of god.




Ah, the Secret Clerith strongholds! I'd almost forgotten those existed!
Egads are they pathetic. I wonder how many still have moles in them.




This paragraph, your first paragraph, is the one where you lose the plot. Cait Sith's lighthearted 'Bring me to the wedding' prediction is all the more tragic in retrospect because IT PREDICTED A BRIGHT AND HAPPY FUTURE FOR THE GIRL WHO GOT MURDERED, not because a fuckdamn wedding won't happen

I don't even need to respond to the rest of this shit because you are arguing that a fake fortune teller telling someone 'You're gonna get MARRIED' right before they die can't be tragic unless there was a real chance of a wedding? Bullshit.



Also, Dante, just remember, Aerith is in other folk's hearts too, and Marlene can feel her presence as well.
Also, I don't think she 'moved on' with Cloud, though she tried to.

I agree Aerith is in everyone's hearts, I think of the nicest scenes in AC is when Tifa thanks Aerith. Aerith's connection to the children even Denzel who never met her was a nice touch to include as well.

No...ish. I also don't think you need to be over and old love to fall in love with someone else. I figure Aerith was trying to be over him, it just didn't stick just yet.

Well the reason I was saying she had moved on to loving Cloud from Zack was because Zack wasn't mentioned in Case of Lifestream and Cloud is called her kobito (Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.) I think that would indicate that she will probably always love Zack, but Cloud is her beloved. She doesn't have to move on with him to always love him, but I believe Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa which is why kobito is used for both women.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Every "rebuttal" to my posts has also been responded to numerous times by Clerith's.

Remember all those times I pointed out how we've done this song and dance before? The "we" there includes many a Clerith. So yes, I know. Hence why I was looking (but not hoping) for something new and relevant.

I've heard all of your "rebuttals" before and they are completely and utterly incorrect (IMO).

In your opinion, sure. But as always, let me repeat that we do not deal in opinions here. You can go about throwing out opinions and treating them as something important in your CxA havens, but over here? We deal in facts, logic and reason. So, your opinion aside, the many times you've been refuted are not at all "completely and utterly incorrect." They're sort of the opposite of that, actually.

Do I have the time to respond to multiple posts and engage in a debate where it's 1 person versus 10?

Probably not. It does give you a convenient excuse to cherry pick what you do or don't respond to though, doesn't it? I wouldn't accuse you of such, given I know it genuinely is hard to keep up with a debate where your side has so little representation. But considering how often you ignore the same important arguments from the same three or four posters? Yeah, I guess cherry picking.

No, I don't. I simply came here to express my point-of-view and provide some food for thought, but I never expected to get the last word considering the amount of Cloti's that frequent TLS.

Why would you even want the last word? The last word is inherently meaningless, its a trophy for the petty. It does nothing to prove any one side, if anything it just proves who is stubborn enough to keep talking. And let's face it, we ALL get the award for stubbornness after all this time As for your coming to express your point of view? You're entitled to such. Good for you. We've heard it before, but good for you for having an opinion. And you wanted to provide food for thought? You're entitled to try, but honestly how much thought do you think you're going to provoke by repeating the same old fallacies and flawed arguments we've seen before? We already thought about all that. And thus, we're entitled to point out the myriad ways in which it is rooted in flawed reasoning.

But I'd like to point this out:
There are numerous posts in numerous threads by numerous users throughout the CxA forums that have refuted Tres' LTD analysis.

As I am not a member of the CxA forums, this means literally nothing to me. I can't imagine its much better for most of the others here arguing in this thread.

He has yet to respond to numerous posts that have literally taken everything he's said and refuted it point-by-point.

Tell them to bring it here, to this thread. From what I hear, their little hidey-hole isn't conducive to debating the issue. So if Tres has refrained from going in there and dealing with their opinion, I don't blame him in the slightest.

And considering the positions, evidence, and overall approach to the debate I've seen in the past? I sincerely doubt anyone has successfully taken apart everything Tres said in his analysis in any real way. In their opinion, sure. But again, opinion means nothing here.

But just because he has faced numerous responses that he has yet to answer, I'm guessing he continues to believe Cloti is canon. The same can be said for me and my opinions.

He continues to believe Cloti is canon for all the many, varied reasons we have showed in this thread on many many occasions. And again, is he actually FACING these so called responses? Did they bring these responses here and debate them?

Just because YOU post a response to my post does NOT mean my post is invalid. It simply means you've responded to my post with your opinion. Both my post and your rebuttal are opinions, neither are fact.

No, your post is invalid because of the fuckton of ways your opinions have been shown to be wrong. I'm not even close to the originator of most of the points that have been made to refute you, I'm just reminding you they have already happened. And no, you confuse fact with opinion and vice verse. If SE genuinely said something, its fact. If you're scrounging through a third party commercial that is demonstrably WRONG in almost every way for evidence, then you're making up opinions. End of.

i hate to break it to you, but your responses (along with all other responses in this forum) are simply opinions. Your opinion is not fact. No rebuttal to my post is fact. And getting the last word does not mean you are necessarily correct, just ask Tres. Multiple users on the CxA forums have gotten the last word with him, yet I'm sure he believes their responses are invalid (even though they got the last word and he has yet to respond). Tres can say he's already refuted their points a million time and doesn't have the time to debate them, but I bet they'd say the same thing to him. Everyone is using opinions in this debate.

The only thing I can think of to respond to this at this time is pointing and laughing, but that seems TOO rude so I'll refrain.

Honestly...you seem to be rather arrogant.

Pride IS my sin, yes

And yes, I'm sure you'll play the victim and say I'm a hypocrite for insulting you after I called you out for being condescending/rude.

On the contrary, I don't actually see where you've insulted me so far in this post. And I congratulate you for stepping up and being a bit more hard nosed. You're still wrong in almost every way regarding the actual debate, but at least you've got a bit more fire behind that wrong now

But I don't know what else to call someone who thinks their rebuttals are facts instead of opinions.

Well when they use actual facts, logical chains of reasoning, Word of God statements from SE, and so on to build their rebuttals then you call them "correct" because they ARE facts. They're only opinions in your opinion, like most things pertinent to this debate

It seems that many at TLS believe that those here are the final word on the LTD (ROFL). Let me suggest getting out of your bubble. Stop thinking so highly of yourself.

Actually, whatever it seems to you, most of TLS gives less than a shit about this debate. Those of us who do still participate here just look at what evidence is available, for BOTH sides of the argument, and come to a conclusion the logical way. It so happens you don't enjoy the results, and that's too bad. Maybe you should get out of YOUR CxA bubble for something OTHER than the LTD once in a while. Then you could get all the facts and make a much more rounded assessment of TLS. Cause as long as this is all you're seeing? Its not only just your opinion of us, its a worthless opinion at that.

Every single thing you posted in your "rebuttal" I have a response to.

Let me ask, is it something NEW? Or is it just rephrasing the same four sentences over and over and pretending that somehow counts as new evidence? Cause if that's the case, then no you don't have a damn thing, like usual.

But considering how you've treated me, you are simply not worth my time.

Code for "I got nothin" if ever I saw such.

Call this an easy way out,

I already did. In fact I called it before you even suggested it, in a veiled way.

but I never expected to get the last word in this thread

Go ahead, post another response to me. Just one word, which I will not respond to. You can have the last word with ME if not the entire thread. Then I will silently sit back... and laugh at how meaningless getting the last word is

considering this is a Cloti paradise.

And so you know, I often prefer Cluffie Cloti is canon, it doesn't have to be what everybody here loves the mostest. Take off your shipper goggles and see the light of "enjoy the pairing whether it happened for realz or not." It works.

Just know that everything that has been said in this forum and on this site has been responded to and refuted -- sometimes in places that are not viewable to the public at large.

Responded to, maybe. Albeit if so, some of it has NEVER been responded to HERE where we could see it and respond again. Refuted? I doubt it. If it genuinely refutes even a crumb of what we've collectively shown you over the course of this debate, why hide it in a place that "isn't viewable to the public at large?" Because it doesn't actually refute anything unless you drink the kool-aid and wear the pink glasses? Yeah, I figured

So, guys, let me know if BB ever does say anything I haven't read a thousand times before. I'll happily look into it then. Otherwise, its so much white noise and echoes.

Edit:

do we know what Marlene's sins are yet?

No word on this, despite my outright demanding an answer to this question of yours Q. Methinks its because there is no answer to be had, and thus the only way to pretend it doesn't matter is to pretend the question doesn't exist. So, BB, ignore me and my big ol' mean Cloti words if you like. But since Q is hardly ever anything but civil until driven to rudeness by extremes of dishonest, spineless, dickish practices... why ignore her? Answer the question or admit you cannot.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I agree Aerith is in everyone's hearts, I think of the nicest scenes in AC is when Tifa thanks Aerith. Aerith's connection to the children even Denzel who never met her was a nice touch to include as well.

Yeah, I just wanted to point it out because if living on in the heart is romantic, it has to be for extrinsic reasons, since it's not intrinsically romantic. Likewise sensing her.

Well the reason I was saying she had moved on to loving Cloud from Zack was because Zack wasn't mentioned in Case of Lifestream and Cloud is called her kobito (Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.) I think that would indicate that she will probably always love Zack, but Cloud is her beloved. She doesn't have to move on with him to always love him, but I believe Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa which is why kobito is used for both women.

It wasn't, though. I don't think Aerith herself is ever called koibito, so it wasn't used 'for' her. Used by her yes, for her no.

Pedantic, maybe, but an important distinction.

And I agree with you that she's gunning for Cloud as of LW's setpiece, but I don't think it means she got over on Zack, either, since she'd just recently realized she HAD been chasing the black chobo in chocohead's body.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Every single thing you posted in your "rebuttal" I have a response to. But considering how you've treated me, you are simply not worth my time. Call this an easy way out, but I never expected to get the last word in this thread considering this is a Cloti paradise.

As a Cloti myself I don't consider this site a paradise. I searched for Cloti fangirling threads and the only ones that show up are the the Cloti fanclub and the Cloud family fanclub. You know what, nobody is posting in those clubs, they're highly inactive.

I'm a Cloti but if I want to enjoy my pairing this isn't really a paradise that's why I need to make a tumblr account. There are no gigantic sections here discussing every little Cloti scene, no threads dedicated for each part of the compilation for Cloti, or even KH and Dissidia at that matter, there are no big section with threads trying to disprove Clerith, and you're allowed to say Clerith stuff at all parts of the forum outside this thread.

Heck I even tried to make a survey to count the Cloti shippers here but only a few really consider themselves shippers.

Do you even look at the forum feed at the bottom of the front page of the forums?

What makes your day mark 2

Your recent purchases.

What games are you currently playing?

Kotaku ranks Final Fantasy games

The Love Triangle Debate thread of...

Experts find remains of England's King...

Trivial shit that annoys you

FOREVER ALONE -

What are you listening to?

Final Fantasy IX Community Playthrough

Favourite quotes

Last Film You've Seen

AKB48 member shaves her head after sex...

Ruins your day Mk 2

Resident Evil Series

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic

The Lifestream Member Picture...

Hi Guys!!!!!

What are you reading?

Reeve and the Turks

Staff meetings

Looks so suspiciously Cloti to me

 

[Dante]

Yeah, I just wanted to point it out because if living on in the heart is romantic, it has to be for extrinsic reasons, since it's not intrinsically romantic. Likewise sensing her.


It wasn't, though. I don't think Aerith herself is ever called koibito, so it wasn't used 'for' her. Used by her yes, for her no.

Pedantic, maybe, but an important distinction.

And I agree with you that she's gunning for Cloud as of LW's setpiece, but I don't think it means she got over on Zack, either, since she'd just recently realized she HAD been chasing the black chobo in chocohead's body.

I figured you probably meant that about Aerith being in Cloud's heart, but the Clerith in me was happy that Aerith was able to comfort Cloud and he was able to see her but I also was happy in Last Order when he was protecting Tifa. Also as I am sure you have heard referenced more times than you can count, some neutrals and most in not all CxA supporters would argue that since Cloud was not referenced in the kobito quote about Tifa that it is describing her personality so she's not Cloud's kobito either and since Cloud is referenced as Aerith's, she would get more credibility for her being Cloud's kobito. Thus the Compilation goes on Nomura doesn't give an explicit symbol of affection like a kiss to end the LTD so he can continue making money milking both sides of the fandom which is not a bad plan. But I digress, what do you is the significance of Zack not being in the LW story? Also I am curious what do you think of Zerith by the time LW is written?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Also as I am sure you have heard referenced more times than you can count, some neutrals and most in not all CxA supporters would argue that since Cloud was not referenced in the kobito quote about Tifa that it is describing her personality so she's not Cloud's kobito either and since Cloud is referenced as Aerith's, she would get more credibility for her being Cloud's kobito.

“There are many dimensions to Tifa’s character. She’s like a mother, a sweetheart [koibito], and a close ally in battle“:
Advent Children Reunion Files book (pg. 19)~ Nomura
​

It's not talking about her personality, it's about who Tifa is. She's like a mother, a koibito and a close ally in battle. She is someone's beloved in a romantic sense. I'm too lazy to write more but here's the quote just the for sake of it.

 

[supergumbo]

"Every single thing you posted in your "rebuttal" I have a response to. But considering how you've treated me, you are simply not worth my time. Call this an easy way out, but I never expected to get the last word in this thread considering this is a Cloti paradise."


No, this is a paradise for people who actually care about canon. It's for people who don't let bull s*** shipping get in the way of hard, concrete facts. You've specifically ignored quotes and rebuttals, while continuously harping on the same logical fallacies that are unrelated to the responses at hand. You have yet to give a direct response for "the happier Cloud is with Tifa" quote and the "engraved in Cloud's heart" idiom to never forget. Until you buck up and give direct responses instead of wishy-washy ones that do not answer the rebuttal at hand, you yourself are not worth everybodies' time here. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.


As for the koibito thing, how did people all of a sudden get personality out of that? I like to think most C x A shippers are at least well intentioned when it comes to their arguments, but this LTD is getting sillier by the minute.

 

[Dashell]

No, this is a paradise for people who actually care about canon.

It's not even that, really. This thread, yeah we focus on canon but there's a bunch of crazy non canon shit that goes on at these forums. Seriously, people need to look OUTSIDE the LTD thread once in a while and not judge TLS solely on that. It is by far the most vicious area of the forum

 

[Danseru-kun]

I can also say TLS is a paradise for people who respects Tifa and does not allow bashing and slander on her character based on her glorious boobs, what she wears, on her childish fantasies when she was 13, or her mistakes in the past, her jealousy to Aerith, not being Aerith, her struggles with forming a family, her desire to find her own happiness and and her love for Cloud.

Tifa here is not someone who will always be inferior to Aerith just to prove that she doesn't deserve Cloud and Cloud doesn't deserve her.

 

[Dashell]

And we don't allow Aerith bashing either, just FYI.

 

[Danseru-kun]

And we don't allow Aerith bashing either, just FYI.

We don't allow bashing of characters overall, but you know how some people take a simple "Aerith didn't meet the real Cloud" as an attack on Aerith.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also as I am sure you have heard referenced more times than you can count, some neutrals and most in not all CxA supporters would argue that since Cloud was not referenced in the kobito quote about Tifa that it is describing her personality so she's not Cloud's kobito either and since Cloud is referenced as Aerith's, she would get more credibility for her being Cloud's kobito. Thus the Compilation goes on Nomura doesn't give an explicit symbol of affection like a kiss to end the LTD so he can continue making money milking both sides of the fandom which is not a bad plan.

One cannot be a koibito in a vacuum. It isn't a personality trait. It's the status of being desired romantically by someone. The very fact of being a koibito requires there be a person who wants you (not that you necessarily want them, though).

In any case, in the quote, Nomura specifically says that Tifa is a koibito and an ally in battle; he only uses "like a" to describe the "like a mother" status. The Japanese text is unmistakable.

Even if had to be used in a context of mutuality, though, it would be more likely for Nomura to be using "koibito" that way in casual speech during an interview than for the narrative voice of a story informed by its associated character's feelings.

Also, from where are you getting the impression either that Nomura has the choice in whether Cloud's love life is resolved or that it being left unresolved would allow for milking of the fans? SE has not used the LTD as a marketing angle, like ever. This isn't "Twilight"; they aren't encouraging you to show whether you're Team Aerith or Team Tifa.

And, hell, that triangle got resolved too.

 

[Strangelove]

Would people really not buy the newer instalments of the series if they 'picked a side' definitively? I can understand not being happy if the couple you like doesn't turn out, I guess, but would you not still want to see the other stuff? The rest of the story?

I suppose I'm not able to see this from a shipper angle, because I don't get not wanting something just because of romance. Maybe if it were a romance story, but even then wouldn't the story be enjoyable for other aspects?

idk man

 

[Danseru-kun]

I made this post in tumblr some days ago and I think this is relevant:

Convenient LTD myths I dislike

Myth 1: SE has stated numerous times that the LT is up to interpretation
Fact: SE has never stated anything like that at all

Note that the LT can be interpreted in countless ways, but SE never had an official statement that said that the answer depends on the players.

Now let us examine the quotes:

Nomura: “AC is a film made by ‘Japanese people’. In Hollywood, I think there’s this trend that the meaning of every scene has to be clearly shown, but this film isn’t necessarily like that. The viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy what we’ve made. The staff have their own answers to everything included throughout the film, such as the angel statue. But even if someone who watches it interprets it differently, then that’s still another possible answer. I guess ‘comparing answers’ could be one of the ways to enjoy the film. I think AC is the kind of film that people will want to talk about when they’ve watched it.”
~Nomura, Director’s Commentary on Japanese edition of AC

​

This is not talking about the love triangle at all, this talking about AC exclusively. Using this as a proof that there is no answer in the LTD is putting this interview out of context. Also, if you read the whole commentary, they were mostly talking about symbolism of the wolf and the angel statue. Nomuja even jokes that the number of birds at the opening may have bee telling something. Sample lines:

There’s the angel statue again.
Yes, there it is.
Is there really a meaning behind it? (Laughs)
There’s a huge meaning to it.
Seriously?
I can’t reveal it yet.
You’re making us answer the question (Laughs)
I want everyone to think about it.
Ah, so you’re raising the question to us.
That’s right. Think about what it means.
I see, so even you have to think about the answer yourself (Laughs)
No, no, no (Laughs)
Brilliant answer you’re giving us.
Yeah, he’s right (Laughs)
That’s quite a pattern you’ve got going [saying secret all the time] (Laughs)

​

Then this quote that came out of nowhere without a proper source:

Tetsuya Nomura: “I’d say, [who Cloud likes] is all how you perceive the game. Cloud, as you know, is a very popular character, so I don’t want to confirm the answer either way. Since the players have affection towards him, I want to leave it up to the players to decide who Cloud likes.”

​

I can’t find any source where this came from except one Tifa site, which is used by some Cleriths are reference. In reality, this quote is nowhere to be found. The closest one and is theorized to have been butchered is a quote from KH:

Question: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
Nomura: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don’t really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone’s line of thought.

From: Kingdom Hearts Ultimania Guide Translations by Thorfinn Tait
​

It’s answering who Cloud was chasing, not the love triangle at all. Also, KH is not exactly FFVII canon even if it can tell something about the characters. It’s revealed in KH2 that Cloud is actually chasing Sephiroth and running away from Tifa’s light. So again…

There aren’t “numerous quotes” proving that the LT is up to interpretation. It’s not wrong to think that it’s the case, but there are no multiple statements about it said by SE.

Myth 2: SE has said numerous times that the outcome LT is up to player choice
Fact: SE has never said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice, it tells us the scene deviations.

The scenes depends on the affection points as a game mechanism but individual profiles and story summaries tell what happened. Again, you’re free to think it depends on the player, but SE never said anything that who Cloud loves is up to the player.And note, SE shows scenes without mentioning deviations, like Vincent and Yuffiewhole existences and other scenes as well.

Myth 3: SE has incorporated a love triangle as one of its themes, therefore there is no objective answer on who Cloud loves
Fact: Incorporating a love triangle in the story does not mean there is no resolution. A love triangle is not a theme and is hardly the focus of FFVII.

Let’s look at the facts. FFVII is the only fandom where shippers claim there is no answer because there is a love triangle. Ever heard of harem mangas? A guy falls in love with few other girls and the girls dig him. Ichigo 100% for example. Just because it’s a love octagon does that mean Junpei didn’t get together with one girl in the end? he actually did, even if the one he loved first was another girl he had to let her go and chose the other.

I hate to use this an example but there’s this show called Princess and I in my country. I hate that show and it incorporates a love triangle. The princess clearly chose one prince over the other and they were just separated because of politics. At the end she chose the other prince that she learned to love and moved on from the other. The prince that wasn't able to be with her became a monk.

See my point? Having a love triangle does not mean no resolution, it’s actually the opposite. And by resolution, it does not mean one can only love one, there can also be two objects of affection.

Myth 4: There are evidences for both Cloti and Clerith, therefore since both have equal evidence there is no factual answer since the proof of one invalidates the other.
Fact: Proofs are mutually exclusive from the other

I hate it. This is mentality where “I have proof, you have proof so at the end this are all opinions.” I see this as a way of escape knowing that one side is winning the debate. There are evidence of Clerith and Cloti but none of them are contradictory, but some insist they are to bring the other ship down as an effort to prove their own.

Just because there is a proof for Clerith and Cloti it's like two different paths where Cloud loves one woman alone. This is incorrect, any feelings for two women would not automatically cause an apathy to the other.

And facts exist, though there are ambiguous aspects in the LTD, it doesn't mean the rest are meant to be ambiguous.

Other myths include "SE has officially declared that Cloti is the canon pairing," though Cloti is canon, there is no official single declaration that "Cloti is canon" but rather its more of a simply deduction from stated facts like Tifa's a koibito, they revealed their feelings for one another etc. Some people attack TLS and accuse the site of parroting the Cloti myth when it doesn't really then use this myth against the whole Cloti argument. :/

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

And, hell, that triangle got resolved too.

Yeah and it sucked! Literally too!

Jake all the way

What I'm not fond of though is when characterisation is ruined just for the sakes of resolving/concluding a love triangle. Jake was so against imprinting and all it stood for ... and then. Poor Jake. Poor Leah I was so digging the chance of that happening and finding love for love's sake and working at a relationship through trial and error, experience, etc but.

There's also Team Gale and Team Peeta for the Hunger Games!

 

[Danseru-kun]

There's also the Les Miserables CosettexMariusxEponine love triangle that isn't really used as a marketing tool but is very present. Cosett is demure and passive while Eponine is the one who chases Marius and teases him (sounds familiar?) As far as I see it, they milked Anne Hathaway's performance even though she has a small part in the total film compared to the other characters.

And... it got resolved.

Spoiler

Eponine was never loved, and died in Marius' arms on top of that.

 

[Kittie]

If SE is milking fans with a romance from FFVII, it seems to be more so geared towards Cloud and Sephiroth; they’re featured in almost everything together. So, yeah, Clephiroth is canon if we go that route.

And speaking of the Hunger Games, I can’t help but wonder if Suzanne Collins played FFVII. She might even be a secret Cloti, for these reasons:

* Peeta is a creeper; he confesses to having always watched Katiniss go home after school when they were children = Cloud following Tifa to Mt. Nibel and sneaking into her bedroom and confiscating her “orthopedic underwear.” Much like Peeta, Cloud also confesses this to Tifa.

* Peeta/Cloud possess very similar, physical features = Katniss/Tifa also have a few similar features.

* Katniss is unaware of Peeta’s feelings for her until he reveals them in the interview with Caesar Flickerman = Tifa is unaware of Cloud’s feelings for her until the Lifestream event.

* Peeta’s mind is hijacked by the Capitol and is implanted with false memories = Cloud’s mind also contains false memories of things that happened. Both men’s minds are seriously fucked up by a third party, just as both men try to kill people they care about while in this mode.

* Katniss doesn’t, technically, abandon Peeta completely; she hasn’t the heart to put him out of his misery, anyway = Tifa stays with Cloud in Mideel and tries to support him in every way she possibly can.

* Peeta and Katniss playing real or not real in Mockingjay = Tifa piecing Cloud’s shattered mind back together during the Lifestream event.

* District 12 is destroyed by the Capitol = Nibelheim is destroyed by a seriously deranged Sephiroth.

* Peeta and Katniss fight against the Capitol = Cloud and Tifa fight against ShinRa, Meteor, and Sephiroth.

* Peeta and Katniss end up together, though everything is far from perfect = Cloud and Tifa end up together, too, though guilt and memories from the past put a damper on their relationship.

* Both couples work through their problems, in spite of all the shit they’ve gone through. They do, at times, find small measures of happiness, in the everyday things that makes life worth living.

And, yes, I actually thought about some of this stuff when I read the Hunger Games trilogy, and, also, the love triangle in it was resolved, too. Of course, none of this is to be taken seriously, but the parallels are interesting nonetheless. And I&#8217;m sure Suzanne Collins isn&#8217;t a secret Cloti, either. But&#8230;you never know. </conspiracy theory.>