The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Vendel]

Also, Tumblr has replaced all the world's shitty geocities, envy.nu, and homestead pages as THE place for incohate pairing and/or character worship and hate.

It's a micro and macrocosm of fanrage, butthurt, and whargharbl. If you're slightly evil, it's hilarious.

Yes it's a place where someone like Anastar may say things like.

"1) Cloud and Aerith were never a couple?

- Actually, SE said they were a couple in Case of Lifestream: White, a novella by Nojima. One part of the story says:

Cloud is the woman’s friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend). ~Case of Lifestream: White

Aerith is constantly referred to as “the woman” in this story. Some people claim that the Japanese word for “lover, sweetheart, boyfriend” should be translated as “beloved”, but there is no official translation of the word. That word in Japanese is koibito, which most often refers to a romantic relationship.

Or even.

3) Tifa is the chick he wants?

Sorry, but SE has confirmed three times that Cloud and Tifa end up in a romantic relationship on an optional basis ONLY, and that it depends on Tifa’s affection level with Cloud set by the Date Mechanism.

It's up to the player and open to interpretation. But Cloud and Aerith were a couple regardless of what actions you take.



But like I said, that is just an example of what you might find there.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Well tumblr is also the place where my Cloti articles sell like pancakes :>

Actually I've convinced a couple of people there that Cloti is canon :>

 

[Splintered]

tumblr is the place for creepy surprise porn you never asked for but is always delivered anyway.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Hey guys, I got this idea when I read about "committed love" that is not entirely passionate but full of devotion to one another.

To married couples here, or those with a committed relationship and living together, what can you say about Cloud and Tifa's relationship? Is it dysfunctional? Is it normal to have moments like that in CoT? Does it seem that the relationship is failing?

I wanna put it in tumblr just so we input from people who aren't single people and never had a relationship (like me) and not living with their partners. If that's okay with you guys.

Edit: An oh, is it true that the script says that Cloud had a shy smile to Tifa? Or was it just fan script.

 

[Dashell]

To married couples here, or those with a committed relationship and living together, what can you say about Cloud and Tifa's relationship? Is it dysfunctional? Is it normal to have moments like that in CoT? Does it seem that the relationship is failing?

Perfectly normal actually. I remember being asked once, "Do you really think we're meant to be together?"... and look where we are now

All couples go through moments like that. All couples fight. All couples say shit to each other they wish they hadn't. Love isn't easy, but it's worth fighting for, which is what makes Cloud and Tifa so appealing. They fought for their love and it made them stronger.

just my opinion though

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess I would call it normal, but that's only because real-life relationships almost always include dysfunctional elements. People are flawed, and sometimes even the strongest of us have weak moments or give in to fear. Sometimes we fight with each other not because of something the other person did, but because of issues we're having with ourselves. It doesn't make sense, but it happens.

There's no relationship -- possible exception: one following a BDSM 24/7 master-slave model -- that lacks turbulence somewhere.

That said, Cloud and Tifa weren't doing their relationship any favors when they held things back out or fear. Not that this isn't normal in real life either. Fear of what the other person may think, of making them angry, of hurting them -- these communication issues are the biggest problem for any cohabiting couple. I'm fortunate that my wife and I hold nothing back and have fully embraced the idea of openness, but I'm well aware that our marriage is not "normal" despite being extremely functional.

Which is not to say we never have fights. Just less of them and not over marriage-ending matters.

 

[Octo]

Perfectly normal, and hardly surprising when one or both partners has experienced trauma in their lives - Cloud and Tifa have that in spades. Their main problem, like many couples, is communication.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

There's no relationship -- possible exception: one following a BDSM 24/7 master-slave model -- that lacks turbulence somewhere.

Even full on 24/7 Master-slave couples have turbulence. The slave is still a human being with their own thoughts and feelings and no matter how willingly obedient they are, there WILL be friction every now and then. They just don't let it out where other folk can see it very often

And yes, communication problems and awkwardness like we see with Cloud and Tifa are very much normal in cohabitating couples. Of note, when one person is very ill/dying or when one of their children is very ill/dying communication can often break down even among otherwise healthy couples. Cloud had both of those It wasn't enough to break them up though, once Cloud got his stones back and stopped moping/dying and started fighting for what's important (everything apparently) again

 

[Sikozu]

An oh, is it true that the script says that Cloud had a shy smile to Tifa? Or was it just fan script.

Yeah, it's in the real script(I have a copy that came with my LE years ago):

The other kids jump into the spring one by one. The church is filled with joyous chatter. Tifa looks at Cloud with a smile. Cloud smiles back at her with a shy expression. Tifa gives a satisfied nod.

But there are a thousand different versions of this script that have long since rectified this mistake of a smile(I have no idea on earth why they chose to package one that misleads us so terribly), clearly Cloud's expression doesn't even change in the slightest for Tifa in the final product, if anything his expression was so obviously the uncomfortable one a guy makes when a clingy, pathetic woman aims her eyeballs his way. Uematsu was inspired to compose "Cloud Smiles" by the profoundly beautiful smile Cloud shows when he sees Aerith's white lifestream mixed with the black and realizes that she is fighting by his side, not to mention the intense love and awe plastered on Cloud's adorable puppy face when he, at last, looks directly at Aerith and realizes that he is finally no longer alone. Anyone who thinks differently is pathetic.

 

[JayM]

Weighing in with everyone else re: Cloud and Tifa. Girlfriend and I have been together for eleven years (and counting), and not only have we had our share of epic fights over stupid shit, but we went through the seriously-ill-possibly-dying thing, also. It isn't fun even when you already have a stable relationship, even when you are used to living together, even when you don't have to deal with resurrected psychopaths and a child who's dying of the same condition.

Add this to the list of things I hate seeing in the LTD. Cloud and Tifa are both really bad at communicating, and the fact that they have communication issues in their relationship is just that: them being bad at communicating. It is quite normal for people to fight, especially people who love each other, because loving someone means (among other things) that person can hurt you easier than anyone else.

Also,

Sometimes we fight with each other not because of something the other person did, but because of issues we're having with ourselves.

I cannot agree with this hard enough. Relevant to the discussion at hand, this is basically Cloud in a nutshell.

 

[Danseru-kun]

thanks guys! i'll include those in my future post in tumblr!

btw i went to the talk page of tifa's wiki entry because it says that the hw scene is ambiguous, they didn't accept the memorial ultimania

I'll try to talk again: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Tifa_Lockhart

 

[OneWingedDemon]

@JayM: This is probably the only thread where that sort of thing has to be repeated. Wow, couples fight. Who would've thunk it!

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I don't get why the FF Wiki can't accept that cloti is canon. Even wikipedia, the largest and most well known wiki out there, accepts it as canon.

Also, something interesting I've noticed about internet debates is that the side that is correct is also usually the side that mocks and makes jokes about the other side the most. For example, I often see creationists do it to evolutionists, I often see clotis(including myself) do it to cleriths, etc.

And what's this about 4chan having love triangle debates? The only explanations I can think of as to why that would be happening are that either the love triangle is a meme now and/or they're debating about which side has hawter and smexier pr0nz.

EDITOWD, apparently not cleriths.

 

[JBedford]

I don't get why the FF Wiki can't accept that cloti is canon. Even wikipedia, the largest and most well known wiki out there, accepts it as canon.

Really? In what way does the wiki not "accept" CloTi? And in what amount and way should the wiki "accept" it?

You say "can't accept" like the wiki is denying something. The wiki gives no shits about the LTD.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Really? In what way does the wiki not "accept" CloTi? And in what amount and way should the wiki "accept" it?

You say "can't accept" like the wiki is denying something. The wiki gives no shits about the LTD.

They won't accept the fact that the HA Highwind scene is canon, saying it is ambiguous which scene is canon even though it really isn't, because they refuse to accept either pairing as canon most likely cause edit wars. Seriously, try to edit Tifa's page so that it mentions Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings under the Highwind the night before the final battle and cite whichever of the many guidebooks that say that you want as your source, and see how long it is before it gets editted out.

 

[JBedford]

Seriously, try to edit Tifa's page so that it mentions Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings under the Highwind the night before the final battle and cite whichever of the many guidebooks that say that you want as your source, and see how long it is before it gets editted out.

Have you tried adding something yourself? Or are you just pretending that the wiki has this stance?

The HA Highwind scene is an optional scene. The article states it is an optional scene. The wiki does its job.

And unless something specifically states that it is canon, and the scene isn't just mentioned/referenced somewhere, it's not going to fit into the article very well. I'm sure I can cite many places where the scene is mentioned, but none of them alone prove its canon, and really all they go to show together is that the scene exists. What would be needed is for the scene to be referenced in an official release(game, film, etc.), or something official that aims to tell the story of the game specifically saying that the scene happened. --Yes, it's a significant scene. Yes, it reveals things about the characters. Yes, it's completely optional.

But if you can think of a good way to get it in the article without making it look like we're trying to grab as much evidence as possible to make a point which is fairly trivial, go add it.

 

[Splintered]

I'm with the leave the wiki alone, and don't start an edit war. The wikia is good about leaving the shipping drama out and I think they do it on purpose, they want to be above it. They know what they are talking about.

 

[Danseru-kun]

And unless something specifically states that it is canon, and the scene isn't just mentioned/referenced somewhere, it's not going to fit into the article very well. I'm sure I can cite many places where the scene is mentioned, but none of them alone prove its canon, and really all they go to show together is that the scene exists. What would be needed is for the scene to be referenced in an official release(game, film, etc.), or something official that aims to tell the story of the game specifically saying that the scene happened. --Yes, it's a significant scene. Yes, it reveals things about the characters. Yes, it's completely optional.

.

When SE decided to summarize their game in a form of an official script (Memorial Album) and a story playback in an official ultimania they decided to use the HAHW scene only and the latter even listed all four dates. This is fairly explicit. Even without an official version, the FTOIL says Cloud and Tifa exchanged romantic feelings under in the HW scene, but for some reason people can't accept this fact just because a redirect page mentions a deviation that does not even negate what was stated that romantic feelings were exchanged.

Even the other scenes in FFVI doesn't have "this is canon or this scene happened" it just lists the scenes. Actually nothing really in all ultimanias say "this scene is canon."

I conceded in the Tifa talk page that if Tifa's page is maintained by a community, it's unfair to edit this bit without consensus of the people maintaining the page. But at least I succeeded in removing "it's ambiguous which version is canonical." I guess that's a big victory to me already

But again, the HAHW scene is canon, what a player gets in the game can be different, but the narrative only uses one of the two.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't get why the FF Wiki can't accept that cloti is canon. Even wikipedia, the largest and most well known wiki out there, accepts it as canon.

Also, something interesting I've noticed about internet debates is that the side that is correct is also usually the side that mocks and makes jokes about the other side the most. For example, I often see creationists do it to evolutionists, I often see clotis(including myself) do it to cleriths, etc.

Scuze me, child, but if you are trying to portray Creationists as the ones being correct and the people who accept the theory explaining the facts of evolution more commonly known as the 'theory of evolution' as wrong, we are going to have considerable words. In the debate section.
Because the LTD is good snarky fun, but you, son, have impugned proper science. That shall not stand.

Your point is also irrelevant, because there's significant mockery from both sides on both debates.

Have you tried adding something yourself? Or are you just pretending that the wiki has this stance?

The HA Highwind scene is an optional scene. The article states it is an optional scene. The wiki does its job.

Yes and no. It's an optional scene, but regardless of what scene does happen, a sharing of mutual feelings, romantic ones, natch, is a canon fact.

And unless something specifically states that it is canon, and the scene isn't just mentioned/referenced somewhere, it's not going to fit into the article very well. I'm sure I can cite many places where the scene is mentioned, but none of them alone prove its canon, and really all they go to show together is that the scene exists. What would be needed is for the scene to be referenced in an official release(game, film, etc.), or something official that aims to tell the story of the game specifically saying that the scene happened. --Yes, it's a significant scene. Yes, it reveals things about the characters. Yes, it's completely optional.

But if you can think of a good way to get it in the article without making it look like we're trying to grab as much evidence as possible to make a point which is fairly trivial, go add it.

"Cloud and Tifa come to realize and admit their feelings for each other at the end of the story, and live together in AC and DOC" as the CCU put it, loosely paraphrased.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

While official sources most definitely say which scene is canonical, it's probably not even necessary that wiki pages go into all that. Perhaps if it were a wiki page about the scene itself or the LTD, but covering the characters can be done easily enough without a need for it -- and it's easy enough to mention the fact that there is an LTD involving the characters without really inviting all the negativity that more detail entails.

 

[Kittie]

I agree on the Wiki issue: we already have official sources stating the canonicity of the HAHW scene, so I think we already have a solid answer there. I also believe it’s really for the best if it’s left out of Wikipedia, simply to prevent unnecessary shipping wars on that site. I’ve seen so many things that are just so grossly inaccurate on a number of those pages anyhow. Just today, for example, I was browsing its page on Christine Daaé, and I came across this sentence regarding her description:

Christine Daaé is born just outside a Swedish smalltown on the 11th of October.

First off, “smalltown” should be two words, and that sentence would probably better phrased: “Christine Daaé was born just outside of a small, Swedish town.” And that description isn’t even accurate, since it’s stated that she’s born in a small town, not just outside of one. The description also fails to mention that it’s outside of Uppsala, Sweden. (I swear I’m not this nitpicky with descriptions, but I’m just pointing out inaccuracies on that site.)

And secondly, I’ve never once come across a passage where Gaston Leroux flat out states that Christine’s birthday is the eleventh of October. I have three different English translations of the novel and I haven’t seen her birthday mentioned anywhere in them. I could’ve looked over it, certainly, but I’ve even done some research today, and I haven’t been able to find that information from a trusted source anywhere. I really wish there was a citation for it, so I could find where it’s stated in the novel, because I’m now beginning to wonder where that individual who wrote that description got that information.

Also, Christine has apparently gained two additional names (Christine “Eloise Mary” Daaé) since I last read the novel. From what I can tell, those additional names are from an RP, not the novel. On a Wikipedia page. I just can’t even…

Long story short: the Ultimanias and creators’ comments are the best sources for anything canon; and a Wikipedia page certainly doesn’t have the final say on anything, really.

 

[Vendel]

Long story short: the Ultimanias and creators’ comments are the best sources for anything canon; and a Wikipedia page certainly doesn’t have the final say on anything, really.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But a wiki site is very often the first source someone may come across.

I would hate to think a site is purposely withholding information for the sake of avoiding drama.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

How necessary is it really that an overview of these characters goes into the minutiae of the LTD, though? The resolution of the romantic sub-plots are ancillary to their overall arcs.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I sorta agree with you both. On the one hand, the LTD can get nasty and all around unpleasant and not everyone wants to dive into it for the pure hell of things. I can get someone wanting to say fuck that noise. On the other hand, they need not get into the minutiae of the LTD of things to make a perfectly accurate edit to the character's overview. Its not really a complete overview if it fails to bring up what is in fact a large facet of Tifa and Cloud's lives, that being their relationship, importance to each other, etc.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A good point as well. I guess I'm of two minds about the whole thing too.