The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)
- Thread starter Max Payne
- Start date
- Status
Vendel
Banned
In the reference bin.
JayM
Angry Lesbian
...except it's pretty explicitly Aeris. I mean, this isn't flower fields. I thought by "vague" you just meant "could be read as another character (FFIX) or completely ignored if someone weren't looking for Aeris symbolism (flower fields/Holy stones/whatever)". What's the difference between a reference and an appearance, then?
Vendel
Banned
Doesn't mater how explicit a reference is. If it isn't the character than it isn't them.
Vendel
Banned
How can it be an AU Aerith when it is the real Cloud?
But that aside. I would like to think we could see the difference between the FF characters in KH and a tactics reference to another character who exists in that universe.
But if we can't do that then remove KH. Guess who is still in the lead?
JayM
Angry Lesbian
If I could see the traits which caused one to be excluded from your list and the other not I wouldn't have asked.Vendel said:
If you go solely by canon sources it only makes sense Tifa would be in the lead eventually; Aeris is kind of dead in canon.Vendel said:
...that's it zee i'm done now.
Splintered
unsavory tart
They're characters so I count them in the appearances. Even if Aerith is in more, why does it count more in canon anyway, the only reason why they were popped up is because people pointed out that Square was paying homage to their relationship.
C'mon, seriously Vendel. This place is toxic enough as it is
Dashell
SMILE!
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Oh god I didn't see...
EDIT
whoops, maybe I should post the right URL
http://youtu.be/RQaisack_jc?t=12m39s
seriously, that's just not called for
EDIT
whoops, maybe I should post the right URL
http://youtu.be/RQaisack_jc?t=12m39s
seriously, that's just not called for
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
flounce to the club with me zee where we shall kick it old school
Zee
wangxian married
- AKA
- Zee
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
honestly i don't see the ff9 thing as a glowing endorsement or that in character. i mean the guy is actually hitting on someone and then she basically says he is just a pretty face. but it is the seventh knight hitting in a flower girl
and it's a thousand times better than monkeys, i tell you whut
and it's a thousand times better than monkeys, i tell you whut
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
I'll start off by pointing this out:
Nomura: "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."
Nomura said in the Reunion Files that, “…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith’s church.”
The flowers shown during the ending of Dissidia are the same color as those found in Aerith's Church. They are also the same color as those that appear in the flower field during Advent Children. They are also the same color as those found on Cloud's desk, and the same color as those Cloud rides his motorcycle through during the credits of Advent Children. The resemblance is hardly a coincidence. But with imagery, I suppose you can't unequivocally prove something 100%. So here's the photos -- you can judge for yourself:
Yellow flowers on Cloud's desk:
Credits during Advent Children:
(Aerith is standing in a yellow flower field. Cloud is shown driving his motorcycle around areas that are filled with yellow flower fields. Aerith's image is superimposed over Cloud multiple times)
Cloud walking through Aerith's Church -- as you can see, yellow/white flowers are growing there:
Flower Field in Advent Children:
Ending of Dissida:
Cloud is standing in a FLOWER FIELD with yellow and white flowers. Hmmm...
I really think the implications are obvious. When you look at the pictures, combined with the quotes saying flowers represent Aerith (especially yellow and white flowers) it almost becomes painfully obvious.
Furthermore, during Dissidia, it is suggested that the crystals will guide each character to where they need to be. Zidane says, "We're not vanishing. We're returning to where we're supposed to be."
Cloud is seen returning to a flower field at the end of the game, which is the place he is "supposed" to be. This flower field is almost identical to the flower fields and flowers that have represented Aerith throughout the compilation. It is also almost identical to the flower field that both Aerith and Cloud appear in during Advent Children.
In addition, Squall of Final Fantasy VIII is seen leaving when a white feather falls from the sky. This feather represents Rinoa. The parallels between Cloud x Aerith and Squall x Rinoa are obvious.
During the game Cloud also says, “The one I really want to meet is…” And although Cloud doesn’t finish his sentence, given the ending of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to mee.
Dissidia: “The one I really want to meet is…”
Final Fantasy VII: "The Promised Land... I think I can meet her... There..."
It appears as though Cloud could not finish his sentence because it was too painful for him.
Lets recap:
-In Dissidia, Cloud states he has a desire to meet someone.
-At the end of FFVII Cloud expressed a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.
-At the end of Dissidia, we see Cloud returning to where he "belongs" -- which is a flower field. Flowers are explicitly stated as representing Aerith throughout the entire series.
-The flowers in Dissidia are the same color as those that have been used over and over to represent Aerith.
-Cloud and Aerith are shown meeting in a flower field during Advent Children, which looks eerily similar to the flower field in Dissidia.
Terra also asks Cloud: "And you, Cloud... What's your dream?"
Cloud: "I've lost mine."
This could be interpreted as Cloud referring to losing Aerith.
But regardless of that, it is clear that Cloud has a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, and the ending of Dissidia suggests he finally meets her in a flower field (ie: The Promised Land). This is also stated as the place where Cloud is "supposed to be".
Also -- does anyone know exactly what Cloud is holding during the ending of Dissida? It looks like a materia similar to Aerith's.
I also think it is obvious what SE was trying to do with the Cloud x Aerith homage in Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX. Although I can't prove without a doubt that SE's intent was romantic in nature, common sense surely suggests it.
In FFIX the Flower Girl calls Knight 7 "cute" and he calls the Flower Girl "beautiful". Their entire conversation is very flirtatious and romantic. Why would SE include this in FFIX if there was no evidence in FFVII that supported the idea that Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved?
In Final Fantasy Tactics, you see Cloud meeting a Flower Girl. He essentially has the same conversation with her as Cloud had with Aerith during the beginning of FFVII. In fact, Aerith is called "Flower Girl" in both games. There is some obvious romantic undertones going on here.
I just think when you look at the cameos, it is not hard to see that SE is paying homage to Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. And the only reason they would do this is if there was evidence to support them as a romantic couple to begin with (ie: evidence from the original game, Final Fantasy VII).
Please read these similar quotes between FFT and FFVII:
Anyway -- the last excessively long post I submitted also pointed out obvious Clerith evidence.
But carry on my fellow shippers!!
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Splintered: I see what you're saying about the reunion-beyond-death thing, meeting as they did before. I hesitate to call it romantic, but I can see now why someone might. Thanks for the explanation.
Que: The cameos matter because the primary continuity clearly needs help establishing what it is meant to be, seeing as Tifa keeps getting in the way there.
Jay: You are a trooper.
Vendel: The Aerith in Tactics is an AU Aerith. Her name is Aerith, she's a flower girl, and she has Aerith's face. Hell, she even has Aerith's Bangs of Doom.
Aerith's cameo appearances do outnumber Tifa's, by the way. Tifa can claim exclusivity to Ehrgeiz, but Aerith has KH1, KH: Chain of Memories (technically a memory construct and not even the real AU Aerith, ironically, but it counts) and Tactics.
Also, simmer down. Do not again attempt to start crap.
Que: The cameos matter because the primary continuity clearly needs help establishing what it is meant to be, seeing as Tifa keeps getting in the way there.
Jay: You are a trooper.
Vendel: The Aerith in Tactics is an AU Aerith. Her name is Aerith, she's a flower girl, and she has Aerith's face. Hell, she even has Aerith's Bangs of Doom.
Aerith's cameo appearances do outnumber Tifa's, by the way. Tifa can claim exclusivity to Ehrgeiz, but Aerith has KH1, KH: Chain of Memories (technically a memory construct and not even the real AU Aerith, ironically, but it counts) and Tactics.
Also, simmer down. Do not again attempt to start crap.
Splintered
unsavory tart
Those flowers just as easily represent Aerith's presence in the world, rather than a place for CloudxAerith to meet. Even look at the picture with the flowers in front of his family photos, they don't mean that there's romance, just that Aerith is watching them. Or go back to the scene in which Cloud and Tifa are enveloped in flowers.
What I'm getting it as that the flowers do not, nor ever have, been representative of romantic feelings. I think for the majority of non shipping players when going through the game, pretty much accept that while the flowers do represent Aerith, they aren't meant to be romantic in context, but rather signify he's going back to his world. Which Aerith's spirituality is a part of.
I've seen people argue that this line is shown that the desire to meet someone is Tifa, especially with how their meeting took place. Honestly, I think the line is standalone and deliberately vague even with Tifa's role in Dissidia.
tl;dr: Flowers represent Aerith, but I just don't buy that the flowers are automatically romantic or is meant to show that Cloud "belongs" with Aerith, I think they represent the/her spirituality of Gaia. I do think Dissidia makes an attempt to express the Cloud/Aerith connection, but also does its best to remain vague and make references Zack, Aerith, and Tifa without overt references to romance.
What I'm getting it as that the flowers do not, nor ever have, been representative of romantic feelings. I think for the majority of non shipping players when going through the game, pretty much accept that while the flowers do represent Aerith, they aren't meant to be romantic in context, but rather signify he's going back to his world. Which Aerith's spirituality is a part of.
But we see his actions right after the game. Post game, right after these sentences, Cloud wants to start a life with Tifa. Him being with Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel is the place he's happiest and where he belongs. It's temporarily tempered by his fear of loss, but he gets over it with everyone's help.
Cloud seems to be in the pre-stable Cloud moment. Which meant he not only lost Aerith, he lost his best friend Zack, he lost his dream of being a SOLDIER, he lost his chance for a normal relationship with Tifa, and most importantly lost his sense of identity, the last I argue the most important thematically of the group. That said, Aerith is a huge part of it.
There's a chunk of references for not only Aerith, but Zack and Tifa as well (maybe he wished upon a star). This statement is vague because they all are a huge part of who he is.
I've seen people argue that this line is shown that the desire to meet someone is Tifa, especially with how their meeting took place. Honestly, I think the line is standalone and deliberately vague even with Tifa's role in Dissidia.
tl;dr: Flowers represent Aerith, but I just don't buy that the flowers are automatically romantic or is meant to show that Cloud "belongs" with Aerith, I think they represent the/her spirituality of Gaia. I do think Dissidia makes an attempt to express the Cloud/Aerith connection, but also does its best to remain vague and make references Zack, Aerith, and Tifa without overt references to romance.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
It is a fact that flowers represent Aerith (especially yellow and white ones).
Cloud and Aerith are repeatedly shown connecting with each other through flower fields.
In Dissidia, Cloud states he has a desire to meet "someone". Cloud also states he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.
At the end of Dissidia, each character goes back to where they belong. Cloud is shown going to a flower field. As we've already established, flowers and flower fields have been used as imagery not only for Aerith, but as a way for Cloud and Aerith to connect with one another.
Given the history of the love triangle (hero wavering between two heroines), the romantic moments shared between Cloud and Aerith in Final Fantasy VII (Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, Cloud laughing for only one character -- Aerith, Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at Shinra headquarters, sharing two canon dates, Cosmo Canyon, Cait Sith's wedding prediction that becomes more painful after Aerith's death, the burial scene, the hand reach scene, etc.), official quotes from SE (check my signature, plus the list I posted several pages back), and Cloud's desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, I believe the ending of Dissidia is showing a romantic connection between Cloud and Aerith -- the same way it shows a romantic connection between Squall and Rinoa.
You are free to interpret it differently, but I don't think my interpretation is that much of a leap.
PS: Does anyone know what Cloud is holding during the ending of Dissidia? It looks like a materia similar to Aerith's.
And I know you will say Cloud is living in Aerith's Church solely because of his guilt -- but why is he guilty? The answer: because him and Aerith shared a strong connection with one another. This connection can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation of the love triangle.
Again -- the type of feelings that fuel Cloud's guilt depend on your interpretation, and can either be platonic or romantic. I happen to believe his immense guilt stems from his love for Aerith. But the bottom line is: Cloud feels guilty because he had/has feelings for Aerith, but you get to decide for yourself whether these feelings are romantic or not.
PS: Tifa says that their family isn't a "real family," Marlene is Barret's daughter, Tifa has no idea if Cloud loves her, Tifa and Cloud sleep in separate rooms, Barret is apart of this family -- he rushes to defend is family, Tifa calls them a family of "friends," no romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa, etc. etc.
All of these points seem to fit in with this quote: "I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer
(I don't care what year Nomura said this. If he said it before AC, well...he stayed true to his quote by what was portrayed in AC, IMO)
I know most of you don't agree with these points, but nothing anyone has said has convinced me that they aren't valid.
Cloud and Aerith are repeatedly shown connecting with each other through flower fields.
In Dissidia, Cloud states he has a desire to meet "someone". Cloud also states he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.
At the end of Dissidia, each character goes back to where they belong. Cloud is shown going to a flower field. As we've already established, flowers and flower fields have been used as imagery not only for Aerith, but as a way for Cloud and Aerith to connect with one another.
Given the history of the love triangle (hero wavering between two heroines), the romantic moments shared between Cloud and Aerith in Final Fantasy VII (Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, Cloud laughing for only one character -- Aerith, Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at Shinra headquarters, sharing two canon dates, Cosmo Canyon, Cait Sith's wedding prediction that becomes more painful after Aerith's death, the burial scene, the hand reach scene, etc.), official quotes from SE (check my signature, plus the list I posted several pages back), and Cloud's desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, I believe the ending of Dissidia is showing a romantic connection between Cloud and Aerith -- the same way it shows a romantic connection between Squall and Rinoa.
You are free to interpret it differently, but I don't think my interpretation is that much of a leap.
PS: Does anyone know what Cloud is holding during the ending of Dissidia? It looks like a materia similar to Aerith's.
He is also shown living in Aerith's Church.
And I know you will say Cloud is living in Aerith's Church solely because of his guilt -- but why is he guilty? The answer: because him and Aerith shared a strong connection with one another. This connection can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation of the love triangle.
Again -- the type of feelings that fuel Cloud's guilt depend on your interpretation, and can either be platonic or romantic. I happen to believe his immense guilt stems from his love for Aerith. But the bottom line is: Cloud feels guilty because he had/has feelings for Aerith, but you get to decide for yourself whether these feelings are romantic or not.
PS: Tifa says that their family isn't a "real family," Marlene is Barret's daughter, Tifa has no idea if Cloud loves her, Tifa and Cloud sleep in separate rooms, Barret is apart of this family -- he rushes to defend is family, Tifa calls them a family of "friends," no romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa, etc. etc.
All of these points seem to fit in with this quote: "I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer
(I don't care what year Nomura said this. If he said it before AC, well...he stayed true to his quote by what was portrayed in AC, IMO)
I know most of you don't agree with these points, but nothing anyone has said has convinced me that they aren't valid.
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Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
He is also dying, rapidly. As such, not wanting connect with the living anymore doesn't neccesarily imply a romantic connection with Aerith to me.
He wanted to start a life with Tifa and the others. He can't anymore. Him thus leaving doesn't prove that he doesn't want to.
Why is Tifa able to hold a conversation with Cloud when he is trying to sleep without going to his room if they are sleeping in seperate ones? How can she wait TILL MORNING for his answer if she's not suppose to even be in the room.
And Tifa has doubts, that's not the same as having no idea. And yeah, they are not a conventional family with bloodrelations at all, Begs the question, why is there talk of a family whose authenticity is questioned?
When Barret is leaving:
“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.
Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?
Just after he left:
“A family.” (Tifa) “Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)
After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she whould stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.
Because Case of Tifa (and AC for that matter) went out of his way to invoke the image of a two parent, one child family. They only bring it up after Barret is out of the picture. And it's pretty clear what Tifa and Cloud felt what Marlene implied concerning the two of them.
Now personally I don't care and I imagine most people don't either, but if you're gonna bring up Barret being part of their family as a point against Cloti then him specifically not being made part of it by waiting until he left should be pretty significant, yeah?
And anyway I don't see how you can bring up Cloud's lines of "meeting" someone in at the Promised Land as proof of romance and then dismiss all this as platonic.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
It might not prove what is or is not "canon" per-say, but I think it can help us understand SE's intent and give us clues.
It appears (to me) that SE is showing us romantic cameos of Cloud x Aerith, which suggests that all of the in-game Clerith moments are probably romantic in nature. SE is paying homage to Cloud x Aerith as a potential couple. Why show two characters in cameos such as these if there was no romance to begin with?
In FFIX the Flower Girl calls Knight 7 "cute" and he calls the Flower Girl "beautiful". Their entire conversation is very flirtatious and romantic. Why would SE include this in FFIX if there was no evidence in FFVII that supported the idea that Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved?
In Final Fantasy Tactics, you see Cloud meeting a Flower Girl. He essentially has the same conversation with her as Cloud had with Aerith during the beginning of FFVII. In fact, Aerith is called "Flower Girl" in both games. There is some obvious romantic undertones going on here.
I just think when you look at the cameos, it is not hard to see that SE is paying homage to Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. And the only reason they would do this is if there was evidence to support them as a romantic couple to begin with (ie: evidence from the original game, Final Fantasy VII).
I mean, just look at these example from Final Fantasy Tactics:
I think the third example is very telling...
--------
Cloud finds Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church BEFORE his diagnosis. Why was Cloud visiting the Church before his diagnosis?
IMO, it appears that Cloud was a regular visitor of the Church well before his disease. Obviously he wanted to continue his spiritual connection with Aerith. And even if it was because of guilt, his guilt is derived from the connection and feelings he had for Aerith. It is up to each one of us to decide if these feelings, which fuel his guilt, are either romantic or platonic.
Furthermore, it speaks volumes that Cloud chose to live in Aerith's Church after his diagnosis. If anything, I believe that helps support Clerith even more.
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