The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Gym Leader Devil]

Flip for it. Good heads, the info gets recorded and everyone acts mature about it. Bad heads, and everyone goes apeshit and flames each other like mad.

 

[JayM]

Its not really a complete overview if it fails to bring up what is in fact a large facet of Tifa and Cloud's lives, that being their relationship, importance to each other, etc.

IMO this still exists even without explicit romance, but YMMV.

And flipping for it implies there's a 50/50 chance of either outcome - I'd say it's more like rolling a D20. 20's your good heads. Bad heads is everything else.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You did get the reference, right JayM? Although there was that one time they tried to wean Two-Face off of his coin by replacing it with dice and cards and shit. Just made him crazier.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Sorry, but SE has confirmed three times that Cloud and Tifa end up in a romantic relationship on an optional basis ONLY

...how can they MAYBE end up when the direct sequel and continuation of the story requires them to DEFINITELY end up together? It's the fucking starting premise.

 

[Vendel]

...how can they MAYBE end up when the direct sequel and continuation of the story requires them to DEFINITELY end up together? It's the fucking starting premise.

Well maybe they are lovers and maybe Cloud is just using her while Tifa is desperately trying to get him to forget about Aerith.

Both are perfectly valid interpretations of the story. It's all about which one feels more valid to you.

...........

BTW can anyone remind me what "clerith cameo" was supposed to be in FF9? I remember the monkeys from X. But this is a new one to me.

Then again maybe the person I am talking with is just confused?

he thought tifa was his childhood friend but tifa was never his friend, she was the slut(don't get me wrong i love tifa as one of my faves but back in the past what she wore and how all the boys hoggled her proves it)

They did say they got ALL their information from cloudandaerith.com

 

[Splintered]

BTW can anyone remind me what "clerith cameo" was supposed to be in FF9? I remember the monkeys from X. But this is a new one to me.

There's a flower girl NPC and one of the Knights of Pluto (number 7 or something) who flirt with each other. I don't remember all of it, but Flower girl says he's not exactly mister personality but he's cute, and Knight 7 has a pretty big crush on her.

she was the slut(don't get me wrong i love tifa

christ it burns

 

[Sikozu]

Spoiler: screencaps of the FF9 Cloud and Aerith cameo

There's a flower girl NPC and one of the Knights of Pluto (number 7 or something) who flirt with each other. I don't remember all of it, but Flower girl says he's not exactly mister personality but he's cute, and Knight 7 has a pretty big crush on her.

+ they're standing right outside a beat-up church building.

(i'd never seen this until recently, when my sis showed it to me when she was playing 9. love it.)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nope, I don't see the resemblance.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Scuze me, child, but if you are trying to portray Creationists as the ones being correct and the people who accept the theory explaining the facts of evolution more commonly known as the 'theory of evolution' as wrong, we are going to have considerable words. In the debate section.
Because the LTD is good snarky fun, but you, son, have impugned proper science. That shall not stand.

Your point is also irrelevant, because there's significant mockery from both sides on both debates.

Whoops, I meant evolutionists do it to creationists. And I guess creationists do do a large amount of mocking of evolutionists, but that hardly counts because their mocking isn't funny. But I am an evolutionist, and I think creationists are as ignorant as cleriths. I've even expressed that view on this thread before. I can't believe I overlooked that mistake, though I was typing on my 3DS, so proofreading my poast would be a pain because poasting in general is a pain when you do it from a handheld device.

Oh, and JDBedford, I can't edit the FF wiki article because I don't have a FF Wiki account and I don't feel like making one.

 

[BlankBeat]

Don't forget Cloud searching for the Promised Land in FF Tactics and running into a Flower Girl during his quest. In addition, Ramza uses the "HOLY" stone to summon Cloud.

So let's recap: Cloud is searching for the Promised Land (exactly what he said he would do at the end of FFVII so he could re-unite with Aerith), he runs into a Flower Girl who is selling flowers for 1 gil, who also asks if she "resembles" someone, and there is a stone called "HOLY" that summons Cloud. That's a pretty big homage if you ask me. Sure, it might not mean anything per-say; but SE is clearly paying some respect to the Cloud x Aerith ship. Try and diminish it all you want, but it's there.

So that's twice SE has paid homage to Cloud and Aerith in two separate games (Tactics, FFIX). Actually, three times if you count the ending of Dissida.

 

[null]

Don't recall any CloudxAerith going on there tbh, was there kissing or something?

Totally see the homage to the main story in FF7 though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Don't forget Cloud searching for the Promised Land in FF Tactics and running into a Flower Girl during his quest. In addition, Ramza uses the "HOLY" stone to summon Cloud.

So let's recap: Cloud is searching for the Promised Land (exactly what he said he would do at the end of FFVII so he could re-unite with Aerith), he runs into a Flower Girl who is selling flowers for 1 gil, who also asks if she "resembles" someone, and there is a stone called "HOLY" that summons Cloud. That's a pretty big homage if you ask me. Sure, it might not mean anything per-say; but SE is clearly paying some respect to the Cloud x Aerith ship. Try and diminish it all you want, but it's there.

For clarification's sake, all the Zodiac Stones were called 聖石 ("Holy Stones" in the PS1 English translation; "auracite" and "God Stones" in the retranslation for the War of the Lions edition). As a noun, the word 聖 means "saint"; as an adjective, it can be "holy," "divine," "pure" or "sacred."

The spell Holy from FFVII was just the English word written in katakana (ホーリ&#12540, so it's not being referenced by the Zodiac Stones, which figure prominently into Tactics' story and have nothing to do with FFVII.

You also have your order of events off where Cloud's presence in Tactics is concerned. For one, it was during the week or so he was missing that he landed in Ivalice (he references being caught up in the Lifestream as the last thing he remembers, and still suffers from his fragmented persona at this time), so he doesn't appear here post-FFVII. Additionally, it is only after his encounter with Ivalice's Aerith that he mentions the Promised Land, so he doesn't run into her while seeking it (he was actually looking for a battlefield when he came to her rescue).

No disagreement that FFIX bears a CxA homage, though. It's always been clear that the pairing has a soft spot in some hearts at Square.

 

[Vendel]

Don't forget Cloud searching for the Promised Land in FF Tactics

This smells like bs to me.

 

[JayM]

Insert my earlier rebuttal to cameo = canon pairing riiiight here.

And for the sake of attempting to foster some actual conversation: BlankBeat, if you think these two cameos are evidence supporting Cloud/Aeris, what do you make of Tifa's cameos in KH and Dissidia? She has fewer cameos than Aeris does but I feel like her cameos are more explicitly tied to Cloud, whereas Aeris kinda has her own thing going on. In your opinion, what was SE's thinking behind those narrative choices? I know my own feelings on it but I'm interested in your interpretation.

 

[Strangelove]

now i need to replay tactics next

and actually finish it this time

 

[Splintered]

Don't recall any CloudxAerith going on there tbh, was there kissing or something?

I think it's pretty clear that Tactics and IX were playing the romantic angle in their cameos though. That said I disagree about Dissidia completely. That entire game was a homage related mess.

EDIT: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_IX/Allusions

If you want to check out all the FFIX allusions, this is a good list.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think it's pretty clear that Tactics and IX were playing the romantic angle in their cameos though. That said I disagree about Dissidia completely. That entire game was a homage related mess.

Would you explain the romantic angle behind the Tactics cameos? It's, of course, homage to Cloud and Aerith's first meeting, but there doesn't seem anything overtly romantic about it to me.

 

[Dashell]

Don't forget Cloud searching for the Promised Land in FF Tactics and running into a Flower Girl during his quest. In addition, Ramza uses the "HOLY" stone to summon Cloud.

So let's recap: Cloud is searching for the Promised Land (exactly what he said he would do at the end of FFVII so he could re-unite with Aerith), he runs into a Flower Girl who is selling flowers for 1 gil, who also asks if she "resembles" someone, and there is a stone called "HOLY" that summons Cloud. That's a pretty big homage if you ask me. Sure, it might not mean anything per-say; but SE is clearly paying some respect to the Cloud x Aerith ship. Try and diminish it all you want, but it's there.

So that's twice SE has paid homage to Cloud and Aerith in two separate games (Tactics, FFIX). Actually, three times if you count the ending of Dissida.

do you have a list of Marlene's sins yet?

 

[Splintered]

Would you explain the romantic angle behind the Tactics cameos? It's, of course, homage to Cloud and Aerith's first meeting, but there doesn't seem anything overtly romantic about it to me.

You don't think that in of itself, just a little bit, is slightly romantic? Two characters that are separated by tragedy meeting the same way as before.

I'm not saying that it makes them canon, I obviously don't believe that. But no way Square put that in there oblivious to the way many fans would take it. I think the same way with Cloud and Tifa meeting in Dissidia. They're paying homage to their relationship.

And this makes more sense that people trying to convince me that Cloud standing in a flowerfield suddenly is a reference to Clerith. That's grasping at straws, but actual interaction, yeah accidental meeting in another world reminisce of their first encounter. I can get behind that.

do you have a list of Marlene's sins yet?

did I miss a meme D:

 

[Vendel]

And for the sake of attempting to foster some actual conversation: BlankBeat, if you think these two cameos are evidence supporting Cloud/Aeris, what do you make of Tifa's cameos in KH and Dissidia? She has fewer cameos than Aeris does but I feel like her cameos are more explicitly tied to Cloud, whereas Aeris kinda has her own thing going on. In your opinion, what was SE's thinking behind those narrative choices? I know my own feelings on it but I'm interested in your interpretation.

Point of order. If you only count the actual characters and not a (sometimes vague) reference to them? Tifa has more apperences than Aerith.


Edit: BTW I made my last post from my phone. Which allowed Tres to ninja me.

 

[JayM]

If you only count the actual characters and not a (sometimes vague) reference to them? Tifa has more apperences than Aerith.

I don't count flower fields as cameos, so the only "vague" reference you could be referring to is FFIX, I think? Aeris is still in KH1, Tactics, and 3DS Theatrhythm; Tifa is in none of these. I suppose she is in Ehrgeiz, but I can't think of anything else that Tifa's in that Aeris isn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

That said, given that my comment was explicitly disregarding the number of appearances in favor of the intent/content behind those appearances, I'm really not sure why you're splitting hairs here.

 

[Dashell]

I don't count flower fields as cameos, so the only "vague" reference you could be referring to is FFIX, I think? Aeris is still in KH1, Tactics, and 3DS Theatrhythm; Tifa is in none of these. I suppose she is in Ehrgeiz, but I can't think of anything else that Tifa's in that Aeris isn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

That said, given that my comment was explicitly disregarding the number of appearances in favor of the intent/content behind those appearances, I'm really not sure why you're splitting hairs here.

JayM, meet Vendel

 

[Splintered]

Aeris is still in KH1, Tactics, and 3DS Theatrhythm; Tifa is in none of these.

Well, if we count Aerith as downloadable content with no real story purposes for Dissidia, you could make the argument that Tifa is in Theatrhytm, even if it is the port- although it doesn't make any difference except for basic stats.

 

[JayM]

A'ight but that still doesn't put Tifa ahead; if you knock Theatrhythm out and don't count Dissidia!Aeris, Aeris still has KH1 and Tactics to Tifa's Ehrgeiz and Duodecim.

...i'm sorry i'm arguing this numbers just confuse me sometimes

 

[Vendel]

That said, given that my comment was explicitly disregarding the number of appearances in favor of the intent/content behind those appearances, I'm really not sure why you're splitting hairs here.

Because I find it funny that even if you take a stupid shipper argument at face value the person making it still loses.

BTW I did put a list together for consumption elsewhere. I'll just copy my post here.

Both T&A -Dissidia 012 (Tifa is actual playable character who interacts with Cloud), Theatrhythm, Airborne Brigade, All the Bravest, FF Trading Card game, KH2, Itadaki Street Special.

Only Aerith - KH

Only Tifa - Ehrgeiz

If we also add in that Tifa was in DoC and Aerith wasn't? Well look who shows up with Cloud more.