The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

... I believe the ending of Dissidia is showing a romantic connection between Cloud and Aerith -- the same way it shows a romantic connection between Squall and Rinoa.

The ending of Dissidia doesn't show a romantic connection between them, though. It shows a connection, yes, but nothing about its presentation is actually romantic.

It can only be colored as such based on what we know of them from FFVIII. It isn't presenting us with any new information about them or presenting their past interaction in a different light than before.

PS: Does anyone know what Cloud is holding during the ending of Dissidia? It looks like a materia similar to Aerith's.

If your sentence ended at "It looks like a materia," you would be correct.

It might not prove what is or is not "canon" per-say, but I think it can help us understand SE's intent and give us clues.

SE's intent and canon are the same thing.

It appears (to me) that SE is showing us romantic cameos of Cloud x Aerith, which suggests that all of the in-game Clerith moments are probably romantic in nature.

All of the moments they're on screen together? Really now? Even as someone who says that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is obvious, I would hardly venture to say that every moment they're together in the original game is romantic. That's just completely ridiculous.

SE is paying homage to Cloud x Aerith as a potential couple. Why show two characters in cameos such as these if there was no romance to begin with?

That I can agree with, at least so far as the FFIX reference goes.

Cloud finds Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church BEFORE his diagnosis. Why was Cloud visiting the Church before his diagnosis?
IMO, it appears that Cloud was a regular visitor of the Church well before his disease. Obviously he wanted to continue his spiritual connection with Aerith. And even if it was because of guilt, his guilt is derived from the connection and feelings he had for Aerith. It is up to each one of us to decide if these feelings, which fuel his guilt, are either romantic or platonic.

His guilt is derived from blaming himself for her death, same as with Zack. Does he feel guilty over Zack because of romance? No.

He was visiting the church prior to meeting Denzel for the same reason he's staying there after he believes he can no longer help Denzel: he wanted her forgiveness. "You can't make someone unlose their life. But maybe I can save a life that's on the brink." Cloud's clear about what's messing with him.

Furthermore, it speaks volumes that Cloud chose to live in Aerith's Church after his diagnosis. If anything, I believe that helps support Clerith even more.

Yet Cloud disagrees. He went to her for forgiveness. The 10th Anniversary Ultimania's Story Playback of Advent Children says that when Cloud meets Aerith in the flower field, he gives voice to "the wish in his heart." That's asking for fogiveness, not a romantic jaunt.

 

[Splintered]

Cloud and Aerith are repeatedly shown connecting with each other through flower fields.

I agree. But those connections weren't always romantic rendezvous. This was Aerith acting as a spiritual guide. I do think that there are scenes in FFVII with Aerith that are fundamentally romantic, but many of the times when you see her in flower fields, it's not about connecting romantically. It's about her spirit watching over him.

I firmly believe that "going to where you belong" is about going to the world where you belong. It makes perfect sense that Aerith's flowers represent Gaia, or Aerith herself represent Gaia, for the things she's done for the world.

In Dissidia, Cloud states he has a desire to meet "someone". Cloud also states he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.

So does Tifa. The "someone" he said was ambiguous, mostly because that someone could easily fit with Zack and Tifa, both character's he alluded to before. And like I said, people have made the argument that since 012, the evidence points strongly to Tifa. Although my personal interpretation is just that it's vague and the line is meant to represent all the people he's come to cherish.

He is also shown living in Aerith's Church.

And I know you will say Cloud is living in Aerith's Church solely because of his guilt -- but why is he guilty? The answer: because him and Aerith shared a strong connection with one another. This connection can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation of the love triangle.

I never disagreed that Cloud and Aerith shared a strong connection. I also believed that while it never accumulated into an actual romantic relationship, there were strong romantic undertones. That said, Cloud living in Aerith's church was never presented as romantic or even anything good in the compilation.

In fact, Cloud living in Aerith's church represented him running away, wallowing in self destruction, and worst of all, tarnishing their memories. For another example, look at Cloud visiting Zack's grave, the Buster Sword has rusted, showing he let his feelings of depression taint how he views them. Cloud in Aerith's church is, almost literally, him living in the past. And it's wrong.

After his epiphany, when he sorts out his issues and comes to terms with what happened, he rescues the people he lives with now (saving Marlene, Denzel, and Tifa), and he puts those memories back the way they should be, a brightly shined buster sword in the church. He no longer lives there in the past, but the trade off is that he gives the memories the respect they deserve.

PS: Tifa says that their family isn't a "real family," Marlene is Barret's daughter, Tifa has no idea if Cloud loves her, Tifa and Cloud sleep in separate rooms, Barret is apart of this family -- he rushes to defend is family, Tifa calls them a family of "friends," no romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa, etc. etc.

They're a family, the entire CoT was to show that they were a family, despite how unconventional it is. They are described as family in CoT, they are pretty blatantly family in AC/C, and at the end of the Kids Are Alright, it ends with Cloud confirming they are family. Word of God says they are family and he's happy with them. This is pretty much impossible to dispute.

Even if you argue that Cloud and Tifa aren't romantic, which I disagree but imo you can make a case, they are still a family. If Barret comes in, they would still be a family. And this is still the unit that drives Cloud to happiness.

The point of CoT is that they are a fundamentally awkward connection of people, many of them with connection issues of their own, but they have all come together with love (romantic, platonic, familial, whatever). Tifa's believing they aren't a real family is Tifa once again succumbing to her insecurities. She's always had issues about what place in people's lives she takes, it's part of her character. But in the end she always pushes through it.

I just think when you look at the cameos, it is not hard to see that SE is paying homage to Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. And the only reason they would do this is if there was evidence to support them as a romantic couple to begin with (ie: evidence from the original game, Final Fantasy VII).

This I can get behind. *shrugs*

I think there are plenty of CxA cameos with romantic undertones. But Dissidia isn't one of them just for referencing Aerith's spirit, something that has become synonymous not with romance, but her spirit and personality in general.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Why show two characters in cameos such as these if there was no romance to begin with?

Thank you. I have forever been saying that Clephiroth is the true and intended couple, but my words like silent raindrops fell, and echoed in the wells of silence.

 

[Splintered]

Thank you. I have forever been saying that Clephiroth is the true and intended couple, but my words like silent raindrops fell, and echoed in the wells of silence.

lies and slander. Dissidia was completely rocking the Cloud/Firion thing tbh.

 

[Kittie]

lies and slander. Dissidia was completely rocking the Cloud/Firion thing tbh.

^ This without question, since we cannot deny the flower imagery between Firion and Cloud in Dissidia. And, according to the language of flowers in the FF universe, that certainly implies romance between Cloud and Firion. We've certainly reached a higher definition of canon here.

 

[Unlucky]

New ltd: SephirothxCloudxFirion.

Blank, if you could just answer Quex's question, that'd be great. Even if you just admit that you have no idea what Marlene's sins are. It's not like that's so surprising to us anyway.

His guilt is derived from blaming himself for her death, same as with Zack. Does he feel guilty over Zack because of romance? No.

 

[BlankBeat]

It can only be colored as such based on what we know of them from FFVIII. It isn't presenting us with any new information about them or presenting their past interaction in a different light than before.

You are free interpret the ending of Dissidia as a platonic connection between Cloud and Aerith. Imagery is always ambiguous. But what is not ambiguous is that flowers represent Aerith (official quotes and common sense prove this), and flower fields represent a spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith. Cloud is seen returning to where he belongs, which is a flower field of yellow and white flowers. He is also holding a materia -- one that is the same color and kind as Aerith's. Although I can't prove without-a-doubt that the ending of Dissidia is romantic -- it is, at the very least, showing some sort of connection between Cloud and Aerith.

Here is why I personally believe it is romantic: nothing happens in a vacuum. When you consider the other cameo appearances of Cloud and Aerith (especially FFIX), the established love triangle of a hero wavering between two love interests, and the romantic moments shared between Cloud and Aerith during FFVII (especially the two canon dates and Cloud hoping Aerith likes him, etc.) I do not think it is a leap to view the ending of Dissidia with a romantic lense. This is further confirmed by official quotes from SE such as the koibito quote. It is also worth noting that SE pays homage to Squall x Rinoa, an official canon couple, during the ending of Dissidia.

All of the moments they're on screen together? Really now? Even as someone who says that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is obvious, I would hardly venture to say that every moment they're together in the original game is romantic. That's just completely ridiculous.

When I said "Clerith moments" I didn't necessarily mean every single moment they shared together. If that's what you thought I meant, I apologize. The Clerith moments I'm generally referring to are:
-Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date
-Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
-Cloud promising to take Aerith on the Highwind
-Cloud laughing for only one character -- Aerith
-Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at Shinra headquarters
-Sharing two canon dates -- dates are inherently romantic
-The Cosmo Canyon conversation
-Cait Sith's wedding prediction that becomes more painful after Aerith's death
-The burial scene
-The hand reach scene

And since nothing happens in a vacuum, when you consider the other cameo appearances of Cloud and Aerith (especially FFIX), the established love triangle of a hero wavering between two love interests, and official quotes from SE, I don't think it is a stretch to view these in-game moments with a romantic lense.

For example, obviously Cait Sith is not a reliable fortuneteller. But that's not the point. The point is what was SE's intent by including his prediction in the game. I believe their intent was to feed into the idea that Cloud and Aerith have romantic feelings for one another. This is further confirmed when SE refers to the prediction as a "wedding prediction" that becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death. A wedding prediction only becomes more painful if there was potential for two people to get married (meaning two people had a mutual attraction towards one another that was strong enough to result in a marriage). I don't think it is hard to see why SE chose to include this prediction in the game. To me, it is obvious that it was included to further the idea of a romance blossoming between Cloud and Aerith. And I'd apply this same reasoning to all the other intimate moments shared between Cloud and Aerith that are slightly ambiguous.

Nothing happens in a vacuum and everything SE included in the game was deliberate. Choosing to include a romantic prediction between Cloud and Aerith furthers the idea of a romance between them, and was a deliberate decision by SE.

It is clear (to me) that SE has paid homage to Cloud x Aerith as a romantic love interest, which was only done because they were established as such in the original game. Again -- why would SE portray them like they did in FFIX if there was no evidence of romance between them?
You don't see SE doing these sort of cameos between Cloud and Barret for a reason.

That I can agree with, at least so far as the FFIX reference goes.

Thank you.
Did you read the similar quotes between Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy Tactics? I think the quotes help shed some light on whether the cameo appearance in Tactics is romantic or not.

Obviously the scene between Cloud and a Flower Girl is not explicitly stated to be romantic, but I personally think SE is paying homage to them as a couple. And again -- nothing happens in a vacuum. We must look at this cameo under the context of the love triangle, the original game, the FFIX cameo, and official quotes. When looking at it under that context, I truly believe that the cameo in Tactics is paying homage to Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple.

I also think you can apply the KH quote from Nomura here too. It is all about context and looking at all the pieces of the pie together.

His guilt is derived from blaming himself for her death, same as with Zack. Does he feel guilty over Zack because of romance? No.

But why does he care that she died? Because he developed an emotional connection with her. At the very minimum Cloud had feelings of friendship for Aerith, and at the very most Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. But he had some type of feelings nonetheless.

My point is that Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. His guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

His guilt and blame is linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those were.

--------

I agree. But those connections weren't always romantic rendezvous. This was Aerith acting as a spiritual guide. I do think that there are scenes in FFVII with Aerith that are fundamentally romantic, but many of the times when you see her in flower fields, it's not about connecting romantically. It's about her spirit watching over him.

It doesn't have to be romantic necessarily. Imagery is always ambiguous. I'm just trying to make the point that it is not a huge leap to view it as romantic.

I firmly believe that "going to where you belong" is about going to the world where you belong. It makes perfect sense that Aerith's flowers represent Gaia, or Aerith herself represent Gaia, for the things she's done for the world.

I guess we'll never truly know what SE was trying to convey by showing Cloud appearing in a flower field at the end of Dissidia. We only have our own interpretations and opinions.

They're a family, the entire CoT was to show that they were a family, despite how unconventional it is. They are described as family in CoT, they are pretty blatantly family in AC/C, and at the end of the Kids Are Alright, it ends with Cloud confirming they are family. Word of God says they are family and he's happy with them. This is pretty much impossible to dispute.

I believe they are a family. But Tifa agrees that friends can form families together, and Nomura has no idea if they are in a romantic relationship!

And since there is no marriage or explicit romantic moments shared between Tifa and Cloud, and they sleep in separate rooms, and Barret is apart of this family, it appears (to me) that they formed this family due to extenuating circumstances and for survival reasons -- not because of a romantic desire to start a family together.

This I can get behind. *shrugs*

I think there are plenty of CxA cameos with romantic undertones. But Dissidia isn't one of them just for referencing Aerith's spirit, something that has become synonymous not with romance, but her spirit and personality in general.

I'm glad you can get behind it. I don't think SE would have included the cameo in FFIX if there wasn't an already established basis for a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith in Final Fantasy VII. Also -- did you read the similar quotes between FFVII and FFT? I think it helps paint the Clerith cameo in Tactics with a romantic lense.

And again, imagery is always up to interpretation. But nothing happens in a vacuum. When I see Cloud expressing a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII (after they shared numerous romantic moments together), and then I see him returning to where he belongs (which is a flower field), plus the official quotes from SE, plus the other cameo appearances, I can't help but connect the dots in a romantic way.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Kudos to you for even trying to keep up with responders, BlankBeat. Now, please respond to Quexinos's question.

It can only be colored as such based on what we know of them from FFVIII. It isn't presenting us with any new information about them or presenting their past interaction in a different light than before.

You are free interpret the ending of Dissidia as a platonic connection between Cloud and Aerith. Imagery is always ambiguous. But what is not ambiguous is that flowers represent Aerith (official quotes and common sense prove this), and flower fields represent a spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith. Cloud is seen returning to where he belongs, which is a flower field of yellow and white flowers. He is also holding a materia -- one that is the same color and kind as Aerith's. Although I can't prove without-a-doubt that the ending of Dissidia is romantic -- it is, at the very least, showing some sort of connection between Cloud and Aerith.

In the portion you quoted I was talking about Squall and Rinoa, though.

But, yes, Dissidia's ending certainly references Aerith with the flower field.

It is also worth noting that SE pays homage to Squall x Rinoa, an official canon couple, during the ending of Dissidia.

Don't forget that there are a number of official couples not referenced there, though, despite several of those men having romantic partners back on their homeworlds (Cecil, Tidus and Zidane).

Having such a direct reference to Rinoa is more an exception than a standard. And FFVIII is sort of the game that you would expect to receive that treatment, since its theme is romance.

When I said "Clerith moments" I didn't necessarily mean every single moment they shared together. If that's what you thought I meant, I apologize.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

The Clerith moments I'm generally referring to are:
-Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date
-Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
-Cloud promising to take Aerith on the Highwind
-Cloud laughing for only one character -- Aerith
-Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at Shinra headquarters
-Sharing two canon dates -- dates are inherently romantic
-The Cosmo Canyon conversation
-Cait Sith's wedding prediction that becomes more painful after Aerith's death
-The burial scene
-The hand reach scene

Several of those are romantic, yes, though I'd point out that the laughing scene was said to have been influenced by Cloud's Jenova-addled brain, and there's nothing romantic about funerals.

I also still think it's weird to call the conversation in the Green Park a date since neither character did so, since they only stopped because Aerith said she wanted to take a break, and since nothing romantic occurred during. Maybe it's not all that weird in Japan to call any occasion a date where two interested parties sit down and have a conversation about each other.

I don't recall any flirting in the jail cells, by the way.

For example, obviously Cait Sith is not a reliable fortuneteller. But that's not the point. The point is what was SE's intent by including his prediction in the game. I believe their intent was to feed into the idea that Cloud and Aerith have romantic feelings for one another. This is further confirmed when SE refers to the prediction as a "wedding prediction" that becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death. A wedding prediction only becomes more painful if there was potential for two people to get married (meaning two people had a mutual attraction towards one another that was strong enough to result in a marriage).

The intent was to set the player up to get their heart broken when Aerith is butchered shortly thereafter. It's the same reason they have a throwaway "death scene" for Cait Sith No. 1 -- the player is being densensitized to the very notion that anyone in the party could die right before one of the main characters is killed.

The prediction is sad because a bright and happy life was predicted for a girl about to die, with no one seeing it coming.

I don't think it is hard to see why SE chose to include this prediction in the game. To me, it is obvious that it was included to further the idea of a romance blossoming between Cloud and Aerith. And I'd apply this same reasoning to all the other intimate moments shared between Cloud and Aerith that are slightly ambiguous.

FFVII isn't a love story. Aerith has a much greater significance to the game than as a potential love interest for the central protagonist. The way you're describing this whole thing would mean that the desired effect on players would only be achieved if they thought Cloud and Aerith were actually moving toward getting married.

The prediction that she would have a happy life has more to do with her upcoming death than a wedding prediction from a false fortune-teller. The player is being set up to get gutted just like Aerith -- not because they want to see a wedding, but because a character they like is going to get killed when they were expecting her to have a bright future.

Thank you.
Did you read the similar quotes between Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy Tactics? I think the quotes help shed some light on whether the cameo appearance in Tactics is romantic or not.

I read them, but am still not convinced that referencing Aerith's death is itself a particularly romantic thing.

If his whole excursion in Ivalice were romantic, it's also odd that he should leave Aerith behind after meeting her, seeking to return to his own world instead. It's just not a particularly solid way to present a romance.

But why does he care that she died? Because he developed an emotional connection with her. At the very minimum Cloud had feelings of friendship for Aerith, and at the very most Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. But he had some type of feelings nonetheless.

My point is that Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. His guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

His guilt and blame is linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those were.

I agreee on most every point you're making here. I'm just taking issue with the notion that feeling guilt over her death is an indication of a persistent romantic desire. Particularly when "the wish in his heart" is said to be forgivness for her death, not continuing a romantic relationship.

I believe they are a family. But Tifa agrees that friends can form families together, and Nomura has no idea if they are in a romantic relationship!

Nomura is categorically full of crap. This is the same guy who said that Advent Children features the essence of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, and also refers to her as someone's koibito alongside her other significant life roles of being a mother and comrade in battle.

He's just a non-commital dickwad who thinks it's sexy to throw the word "interpretation" around.

And since there is no marriage or explicit romantic moments shared between Tifa and Cloud, and they sleep in separate rooms, and Barret is apart of this family, it appears (to me) that they formed this family due to extenuating circumstances and for survival reasons -- not because of a romantic desire to start a family together.

You don't know that they sleep in separate rooms, Barret is never included in descriptions of the family (he's actually listed separately from the family on at least one occasion), and Cloud specifically told Tifa that he believed his new life would succeed because he had her -- which is kind of different from "I'm going to stick with you 'cause I think I might die otherwise."

And again, imagery is always up to interpretation. But nothing happens in a vacuum. When I see Cloud expressing a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII (after they shared numerous romantic moments together), and then I see him returning to where he belongs (which is a flower field), plus the official quotes from SE, plus the other cameo appearances, I can't help but connect the dots in a romantic way.

Even when all quotes about his desire to meet Aerith again (including those from Cloud himself) are that he wants to do so in order to be forgiven?

 

[Kittie]

I will agree that romantic elements can, possibly, be argued for Cloud and Aerith on the first disc, even though it’s noted in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania that Cloud is unaware of both Aerith and Tifa’s interest in him during the date at the Gold Saucer. He is sadly that oblivious, when it comes to the ladies.

However, with all due respect, the burial scene isn’t at all romantic. I can say this because my parents were married for over thirty years and my mom was absolutely numb to everything around her during my dad’s visitation/funeral. She can barely remember our friends and relatives trying to comfort her, because what we really wanted at that time was for the nightmare to end and for my dad to be back with us, happy and alive. There is nothing but pain, loss, and grief to be found at a funeral/burial; and to romanticize something like that, especially when Cloud and the others were in absolute shock over losing Aerith, it really does a terrible disservice to not only what Kitase and the rest of the creators were trying to get across to people, but to the characters themselves. Really, there's more to life than just love and romance. I honestly mean that, by the way.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seriously, Kitase, et. al. were -- by their own admission -- reprimanding the notions of romantic, sacrificial deaths popularized in most media. They wanted to portray something that just left you with a sense of emptiness and confusion -- the feelings you actually have when someone you love dies.

Reading romance into it means you're buying into one of the very tropes the dev. staff set out to counter.

Aerith's death is not romantic, period.

 

[BlankBeat]

I also still think it's weird to call the conversation in the Green Park a date since neither character did so, since they only stopped because Aerith said she wanted to take a break, and since nothing romantic occurred during. Maybe it's not all that weird in Japan to call any occasion a date where two interested parties sit down and have a conversation about each other.

The date in the park is an intimate moment shared between Cloud and Aerith. It is when they begin to get to know each other on a deeper level. Maybe SE believes it is a date because the attraction between Cloud and Aerith is supposed to be obvious?
Regardless -- SE refers to it as a date, so that's that. Cloud and Aerith share two canon dates, which is inherently romantic.

I don't recall any flirting in the jail cells, by the way.

Aeris: "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud: "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
Aeris: "The deal was for one date, right?"

I'm sure you won't find this flirtatious, but I did.

The intent was to set the player up to get their heart broken when Aerith is butchered shortly thereafter.

SE could have just as easily included a prediction about Aerith's life turning out well without Cloud. Instead, SE chose to include a prediction specifically referring to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. SE goes even further and says this was a "wedding" prediction.

It doesn't have to be an either/or explanation. Yes, it was included to set the player up to get their heart broken. But it was also included to feed into the romance between Cloud and Aerith.

Again -- a generic prediction about Aerith's future would have sufficed if the only reason was to set the player up to get their heart broken. Instead, SE specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud to feed into the romantic implications of their relationship.

The prediction that she would have a happy life has more to do with her upcoming death than a wedding prediction from a false fortune-teller.

A happy life with Cloud. There are two parts to the prediction. One is a happy future, and one is a future specifically with Cloud.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" -- this would have set the player up to get their heart broken. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future.

Furthermore, given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

I agreee on most every point you're making here. I'm just taking issue with the notion that feeling guilt over her death is an indication of a persistent romantic desire. Particularly when "the wish in his heart" is said to be forgivness for her death, not continuing a romantic relationship.

There is no evidence of a persistent romantic desire for Tifa, either. Even if the HAHW scene is canon (I don't think it is), nothing in AC suggests Cloud continues to have those feelings.

Advent Children, IMO, is ambiguous because the LTD is up to interpretation.

There is evidence that supports both pairings, and AC allows us to take that evidence and apply it to AC according to our own interpretation.

Nomura is categorically full of crap. This is the same guy who said that Advent Children features the essence of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, and also refers to her as someone's koibito alongside her other significant life roles of being a mother and comrade in battle.

Say he's full of crap all you want -- but he said, explicitly, that he doesn't know if Tifa and Cloud share a romantic relationship.

You don't know that they sleep in separate rooms,

Tifa tells Cloud to drink in his "room" -- Cloud has his own room.

There is a place to sleep in Cloud's room. It is irrelevant if it is a bed or cot, it is a place to sleep, period. Furthermore, it is also irrelevant if there is no other furniture in his room besides a desk and bed. There is a place to sleep. Period.

What evidence do you have that they sleep together? There seems to be more evidence that supports my position, especially when there is no romantic scenes shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC.

Didn't the revised version of CoT say Marlene always slept with Tifa?

Barret is never included in descriptions of the family (he's actually listed separately from the family on at least one occasion)

Is Marlene Barret's daughter?
Wasn't Barret the first person to call them a family in CoT?
Didn't Barret rush back to defend his "family"? What family would SE be referring to?

It seems SE is inconsistent on this issue.

and Cloud specifically told Tifa that he believed his new life would succeed because he had her -- which is kind of different from "I'm going to stick with you 'cause I think I might die otherwise."

So…? They obviously share a common history from childhood and have been through a lot together. How does this prove Cloud loves Tifa?

PS: I have no idea when we talked about Marlene's sins. If someone could direct me to the page it was discussed, I'd appreciate it very much.

 

[BlankBeat]

Additionally...

Aerith's death is not romantic, period.

I don't think that funerals or burials are romantic. I simply think the way in which SE created the cut-scene shows (based on all things considered) an intimate burial that specifically focuses on Cloud laying Aerith to rest. Sure, Cloud is the main character and he blames himself for her death. But to me (based on all things considered) it appeared that Cloud was laying to rest someone he loved romantically.

Obviously this is my opinion and imagery is always up to interpretation, but does anyone honestly think SE would have made the cut-scene the same way if it had been Barret or Cid who had died?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Regardless -- SE refers to it as a date, so that's that. Cloud and Aerith share two canon dates, which is inherently romantic.

They're weird about this, as they also call the Gold Saucer date their "first and last date." But, yes, the Green Park conversation has been officially referred to as a date.

Aeris: "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud: "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
Aeris: "The deal was for one date, right?"

I'm sure you won't find this flirtatious, but I did.

You're better at divination than Cait Sith then.

SE could have just as easily included a prediction about Aerith's life turning out well without Cloud. Instead, SE chose to include a prediction specifically referring to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. SE goes even further and says this was a "wedding" prediction.

It doesn't have to be an either/or explanation. Yes, it was included to set the player up to get their heart broken. But it was also included to feed into the romance between Cloud and Aerith.

Again -- a generic prediction about Aerith's future would have sufficed if the only reason was to set the player up to get their heart broken. Instead, SE specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud to feed into the romantic implications of their relationship.

...

A happy life with Cloud. There are two parts to the prediction. One is a happy future, and one is a future specifically with Cloud.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" -- this would have set the player up to get their heart broken. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future.

Furthermore, given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

Fair enough.

I absolutely agree with you about this: "... it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth."

It's when this somehow becomes the basis of an argument that the relationship not only wasn't prevented from growing into something more, but that it actually continues on as though Aerith never died that I find myself calling b.s.

There is no evidence of a persistent romantic desire for Tifa, either. Even if the HAHW scene is canon (I don't think it is), nothing in AC suggests Cloud continues to have those feelings.

Multiple quotes say that Cloud has been carrying feelings for Tifa since childhood. Not had them -- currently has them.

There's also Nomura's "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files. Either she's desired by someone who she desires back, or Nomura decided that it was significant enough to mention a one-sided attraction for Tifa (that doesn't even come up in Advent Children) alongside her role as a mother and a comrade in a book about a movie where her only significant interaction with any man is with Cloud.

Which of those makes more sense to you?

Say he's full of crap all you want -- but he said, explicitly, that he doesn't know if Tifa and Cloud share a romantic relationship.

He's also capable of changing his mind (which I would argue he did because of the "koibito" thing). And he isn't the only judge of FFVII canon in the first place, for that matter.

Tifa tells Cloud to drink in his "room" -- Cloud has his own room.

She tells him to drink in a room. There's no possession attached to it.

There is a place to sleep in Cloud's room. It is irrelevant if it is a bed or cot, it is a place to sleep, period. Furthermore, it is also irrelevant if there is no other furniture in his room besides a desk and bed. There is a place to sleep. Period.

In the office. A room officially described as "Cloud's office" multiple times. Not his room. His office. A room that also lacks privacy because of the door.

And, yes, a room that lacks storage space for anything a person would need in their day-to-day life while the children's bedroom across the hall is lavishly furnished.

I call bullshit on this being a bedroom for so many reasons, not the least of which is that it is officially "Cloud's office."

Didn't the revised version of CoT say Marlene always slept with Tifa?

No. Both versions of the story said she always slept with Tifa, but only while they were homeless and living in the ruins of Midgar. There's some two years of time that passes after the moment where that was mentioned (when Barret is leaving).

Is Marlene Barret's daughter?
Wasn't Barret the first person to call them a family in CoT?
Didn't Barret rush back to defend his "family"? What family would SE be referring to?

It seems SE is inconsistent on this issue.

They consistently exclude Barret. Also, it's Japanese -- a lone individual can be referred to as one's family the same as a group of people (I'm talking about the "rush back" quote).

Barret's family is Marlene. Marlene's family is Barret, Cloud, Tifa and Denzel.

Cloud's family, meanwhile, is Marlene, Tifa and Denzel. That is how they are described.

So…? They obviously share a common history from childhood and have been through a lot together. How does this prove Cloud loves Tifa?

It proves he singled her out to stick with for reasons other than self-preservation.

PS: I have no idea when we talked about Marlene's sins. If someone could direct me to the page it was discussed, I'd appreciate it very much.

They've never been discussed, which is the problem.

Additionally...


I don't think that funerals or burials are romantic. I simply think the way in which SE created the cut-scene shows (based on all things considered) an intimate burial that specifically focuses on Cloud laying Aerith to rest. Sure, Cloud is the main character and he blames himself for her death. But to me (based on all things considered) it appeared that Cloud was laying to rest someone he loved romantically.

Obviously this is my opinion and imagery is always up to interpretation, but does anyone honestly think SE would have made the cut-scene the same way if it had been Barret or Cid who had died?

Doubtful, but does it really matter when the people responsible for making the game said they weren't going for a romantic cliché or something dramatically meaningful?

 

[JayM]

Obviously this is my opinion and imagery is always up to interpretation, but does anyone honestly think SE would have made the cut-scene the same way if it had been Barret or Cid who had died?

...too much would have to be thematically different for either of them to die, but we do have Zack's death in CC to compare. How do you interpret that one?

Zack died to protect Cloud; Zack lives on in Cloud; symbolism linking Cloud to Zack is in every single time Cloud picks up the Buster Sword. Is this romantic?

And "Marlene's sins" refers to this quote, from which the "family of friends" argument re: Cloud and Tifa was originally taken:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins."

If the Seventh Heaven family (ie the family unit containing Cloud&Tifa) is the "family of friends" from CoT, Marlene is also "burdened with the same sins." So what are her sins?

 

[Sikozu]

Hmm, let's see how compatible Cloud and I are!

That'll cost ya. Exactly one date!

*Aerith nods*

I always interpreted Aerith's nod as very enthusiastic. I can see things going very well between them, and the night ending similarly to the CxA date.

I want to meet you.

Um.. But I'm right here.

(I know, I know...what I mean is...)
I want to meet...you. As in the guy behind the cat riding the giant stuffed moogle. ( ・ω&#12539

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... the guy behind the cat riding the giant stuffed moogle.

The "fantasy" in "Final Fantasy VII" just got a whole new meaning.

 

[Fighter]

Have people forgotten that Cloud doesn't willingly go to any of the dates except with Barret? That's how much he wanted the date.

The dates are not about Cloud, they are about whoever you treated best making a move. Cloud is completely spaced out during all of them.

 

[Unlucky]

PS: I have no idea when we talked about Marlene's sins. If someone could direct me to the page it was discussed, I'd appreciate it very much.

Quex asked you the question in this post (#2) in which she quoted this post of yours in particular.

 

[BlankBeat]

It's when this somehow becomes the basis of an argument that the relationship not only wasn't prevented from growing into something more, but that it actually continues on as though Aerith never died that I find myself calling b.s.

I simply use it as evidence that SE intended to portray Cloud and Aerith as being romantically involved in Final Fantasy VII.

Also -- they don't call it Final Fantasy for nothing. Given the spiritual connection Cloud and Aerith share, and the concept of the Promised Land, it is clear that a relationship can continue between Cloud and Aerith. Cloud specifically expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.

And although we both agree that his desire to find the Promised Land is to seek forgiveness and rid himself of the guilt he feels; this guilt is fueled by either the romantic or platonic feelings he developed for Aerith. Given the context of the in-game Clerith moments, the cameo appearances, official quotes by SE, and the established love triangle where a hero wavers between two heroines, I believe his guilt is fueled by romantic feelings.

Multiple quotes say that Cloud has been carrying feelings for Tifa since childhood. Not had them -- currently has them.

I've seen multiple translations of multiple quotes. I'll believe it when I see an official translation. Most of the quotes I've seen refer to Cloud's childhood crush.

And since Nomura said he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa share a romantic relationship after FFVII, it is possible that even if the HAHW is canon (I don't think it is), Cloud did not continue to have romantic feelings for Tifa after the game ended. Maybe these romantic feelings for Tifa ended once he realized he could re-unite with Aerith in the Promised Land? It is also possible that Cloud had romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa, and it is up to each one of us to decide who he loves more.

He's also capable of changing his mind (which I would argue he did because of the "koibito" thing). And he isn't the only judge of FFVII canon in the first place, for that matter.

There is also the koibito quote that supports Clerith. The Clerith quote specifically says Cloud is Aerith's koibito, whereas the Cloti koibito quote is ambiguous. Obviously I think the Cloti quote is referring to Cloud x Tifa, which is why I think SE continually gives evidence that supports both pairings.

She tells him to drink in a room. There's no possession attached to it.

That's the official translation?

"Go drink in a room"
"Go drink in your room"
Which sounds more grammatically correct?

In the office. A room officially described as "Cloud's office" multiple times. Not his room. His office. A room that also lacks privacy because of the door.

Maybe they decided to give one of the rooms to Denzel because Cloud doesn't need a room 24/7 because of his work schedule? Maybe they decided that given Cloud's profession, all he needed is an office that also includes a place to sleep?

Why does his office include a place to sleep? What is the purpose of including this bed/cot in Cloud's office? I think it is a stretch to say that SE randomly included a place to sleep in Cloud's office for the hell of it. It seems highly likely that Cloud would sleep in a place that is described as his own, especially since this place specifically includes a place to sleep.

Furthermore, given the fact that zero romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa, what evidence do you have that Cloud sleeps with Tifa?

And, yes, a room that lacks storage space for anything a person would need in their day-to-day life while the children's bedroom across the hall is lavishly furnished.

Cloud appears to be a man of very little means. He also seems to wear the same outfit a lot

Again -- I'd say his profession and their current circumstances have something to do with his unfurnished room.

They consistently exclude Barret. Also, it's Japanese -- a lone individual can be referred to as one's family the same as a group of people (I'm talking about the "rush back" quote).

Why didn't SE simply say Barret rushed back to defend Marlene?

Given how SE has used the word family in the past, I think it is obvious they were saying Barret was rushing back to defend his family (ie: Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene).

Barret's family is Marlene. Marlene's family is Barret, Cloud, Tifa and Denzel.

Cloud's family, meanwhile, is Marlene, Tifa and Denzel. That is how they are described.

I find it very convenient to put Marlene in two families instead of making Barret apart of Cloud's family, which would then make them all one big happy family.

Furthermore, Barret and Tifa were a family in AVALANCHE. Why would they stop being a family in AC?

Also -- Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are only described as a family of four while Barret is off doing missions. Seems reasonable.

The bottom line is: Tifa believes friends can form a family together. Given the unique circumstances, it appears as though Tifa and Cloud formed a family for survival purposes. There is no proof that this is inherently romantic. There are zero romantic scenes between Cloud and Tifa in AC.

Again -- I think SE is inconsistent on this issue.

Doubtful, but does it really matter when the people responsible for making the game said they weren't going for a romantic cliché or something dramatically meaningful?

Well, I guess that's my point. If Barret or Cid had been killed by Sephiroth, the cut-scene would probably be very different.

Given the context of everything, I believe the imagery during the burial scene suggests Cloud laying to rest someone he was romantically involved with.

 

[JayM]

That's the official translation?

"Go drink in a room"
"Go drink in your room"
Which sounds more grammatically correct?

Given that the sentence wasn't originally in English I don't see how what "sounds" correct in English makes a difference, just sayin'.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Still seeing a distinct lack of answers to Q's question in here despite BB having at least acknowledged the question exists.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I simply use it as evidence that SE intended to portray Cloud and Aerith as being romantically involved in Final Fantasy VII.

Also -- they don't call it Final Fantasy for nothing. Given the spiritual connection Cloud and Aerith share, and the concept of the Promised Land, it is clear that a relationship can continue between Cloud and Aerith.

Do you consider Maiden Who Travels the Planet canon? If so, the exact opposite of that is made clear there. The world of the living becomes "another world" to her, and she herself acknowledges that she can "no longer associate" with those still alive.

Death is death. You're choosing to ignore what Kitase and Nomura have talked about on numerous occasions when discussing Aerith's death.

I've seen multiple translations of multiple quotes. I'll believe it when I see an official translation.

Which is a convenient excuse to avoid just checking into it yourself. Basic Japanese is not particularly difficult to learn -- not that you would have to even do that. It would be pretty simple to look into the basic rules of grammatical structure related to things like past tense and the past progressive tense. You could even just ask someone on Yahoo! or a Japanese language forum.

It's not like you're being asked to solve a Rubik's Cube.

In any case, you have no problem accepting a mutltude of other fan-translated quotes, so I'm calling bullshit on you. Do not take me for a fool.

And since Nomura said he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa share a romantic relationship after FFVII, it is possible that even if the HAHW is canon (I don't think it is), Cloud did not continue to have romantic feelings for Tifa after the game ended. Maybe these romantic feelings for Tifa ended once he realized he could re-unite with Aerith in the Promised Land?

You're talking as though we live in a world where one cannot have romantic feelings for multiple people at the same time.

And, no, that is not logical. That is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard anyone say in an LTD discussion. Which is quite a medal to wear.

It is also possible that Cloud had romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa, and it is up to each one of us to decide who he loves more.

Why is there even a question of "more"? Human beings don't quantify their emotions.

There is also the koibito quote that supports Clerith. The Clerith quote specifically says Cloud is Aerith's koibito ...

Yes, it specifically says that Aerith desires Cloud.

Obviously I think the Cloti quote is referring to Cloud x Tifa, which is why I think SE continually gives evidence that supports both pairings.

You're going to have to explain this to me. How can you believe Nomura definitely said Cloud and Tifa are one another's koibitos in a book about Advent Children, but then say that it's ambiguous whether he has romantic feelings for her?

Why can't people be consistent when it comes to this topic.

That's the official translation?

"Go drink in a room"
"Go drink in your room"
Which sounds more grammatically correct?

Which language was it written in? To borrow a comment from hito: Japanese is not English with squiggles.

It isn't like an Al Bhed cypher of English. One of the primary difficulties with translating between the two languages is that they don't share the same grammatical rules.

Maybe they decided to give one of the rooms to Denzel because Cloud doesn't need a room 24/7 because of his work schedule?

The children share a bedroom.

Maybe they decided that given Cloud's profession, all he needed is an office that also includes a place to sleep?

And that makes sense to you?

Regardless, it's still "Cloud's office."

Why does his office include a place to sleep? What is the purpose of including this bed/cot in Cloud's office?

To sleep on when he comes in during the middle of the night? Like people do in real life?

Why do big rigs have a bed for their drivers? Not because it's their home.

Hell, claim Cloud has a bedroom somewhere else in the house if you want, I don't care. But that office is not a bedroom.

Furthermore, given the fact that zero romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa, what evidence do you have that Cloud sleeps with Tifa?

Case of Tifa had its share of romantic moments. Advent Children should not be expected to, what with the family being at the height of crisis and Cloud dragging his ass around.

Cloud appears to be a man of very little means. He also seems to wear the same outfit a lot

Cloud is not a man of very little means. He wears jewelry, has a customized sword, as well as custom clothing, a bike and a cell phone, all of which were designed around a wolf motif.

The dude likes stuff.

Why didn't SE simply say Barret rushed back to defend Marlene?

Because Japanese.

Given how SE has used the word family in the past, I think it is obvious they were saying Barret was rushing back to defend his family (ie: Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene).

Only for the same book to exclude Barret when listing what it calls Cloud's family later?

I find it very convenient to put Marlene in two families instead of making Barret apart of Cloud's family, which would then make them all one big happy family.

Call it convenient all you like. Square did it, not me.

Furthermore, Barret and Tifa were a family in AVALANCHE. Why would they stop being a family in AC?

For the record, they were never called a family back then. While I would use that word to describe them, the situation between Cloud and Tifa is different from that between Barret and Tifa for what should be obvious reasons.

Also -- Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are only described as a family of four while Barret is off doing missions. Seems reasonable.

Only they aren't. They're described as Cloud's family when Barret is present as well at the end of Advent Children -- but he is left in the grouping of Cloud's friends. Only Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are identified as Cloud's family.

All this is in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania's recap of Advent Children, in case you're forgetting.

The bottom line is: Tifa believes friends can form a family together. Given the unique circumstances, it appears as though Tifa and Cloud formed a family for survival purposes.

They traveled all over the world before coming back to Midgar. You want to tell me Cloud couldn't have gone anywhere he wanted to? Not with Cid? Or Yuffie? Or Red? Reeve? He's with Tifa because he wants to be.

There is no proof that this is inherently romantic.

Where's Cloud telling Barret that he knows his life will succeed this time because he has him? Seriously, I want to see it.

There are zero romantic scenes between Cloud and Tifa in AC.

Find me a woman who wants to mack on a guy who's too scared shitless to lift a finger to save her kids from danger, I'll slap the bitch silly myself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ah, and for the record:

The quotes that say Cloud and Tifa have been holding love for each other? Identical phrasing, down to the past progressive tense, is used to describe Aerith's feelings for Cloud in Maiden.

 

[Roger]

Cloud finds Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church BEFORE his diagnosis. Why was Cloud visiting the Church before his diagnosis?

IMO, it appears that Cloud was a regular visitor of the Church well before his disease. Obviously he wanted to continue his spiritual connection with Aerith.

Because of Elmyra wanted flowers delivered to Aerith's grave (well, lake). He revisited at least once of his own volition sure but that's what seemed to start it all.

Also -- they don't call it Final Fantasy for nothing. Given the spiritual connection Cloud and Aerith share, and the concept of the Promised Land, it is clear that a relationship can continue between Cloud and Aerith. Cloud specifically expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.

Clear based on what? We SEE Aerith's perspective in Case of the Lifestream. Guess what, she hadn't stayed in touch. IF Cloud had been visiting Aerith's Church all along as you say then she hasn't noticed AT ALL.

Aerith can reach out to Cloud not the other way around and she didn't do it to start a romantic relationship with Cloud, she was entirely satisfied leaving him alone until the world needed saving agaun.

Why does his office include a place to sleep? What is the purpose of including this bed/cot in Cloud's office? I think it is a stretch to say that SE randomly included a place to sleep in Cloud's office for the hell of it. It seems highly likely that Cloud would sleep in a place that is described as his own, especially since this place specifically includes a place to sleep.

I dunno how anyone is expected to sleep on that thing, the floor is more comfortable.

Furthermore, given the fact that zero romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa, what evidence do you have that Cloud sleeps with Tifa?

Again, she starts a conversation with him out of the bloom while he is sleeping, he feels free to go back to sleep in her presence, she has no trouble with waiting until morning for his answer. How does that not tell you she's suppose to be there?

Cloud appears to be a man of very little means. He also seems to wear the same outfit a lot

Please, he made himself ten times more comfortable in Aerith's Church. And whatever you think of his relationship with Tifa, getting the bar was just as much his decision as it was anyone else's

Again -- I'd say his profession and their current circumstances have something to do with his unfurnished room.

Bullcrap, Denzel had a mattress and sheets and he wasn't there long at all.

I find it very convenient to put Marlene in two families instead of making Barret apart of Cloud's family, which would then make them all one big happy family.

Yeah, but the writer had an agenda when they were writing this and hint hint, Barret didn't fit in it.

 

[Ⓐaron]

By the way, I know we haven't been enforcing the rules much in this thread lately, and some of them we've basically written off as a lost cause, but we're still serious about the flaming and trolling. If someone flames/trolls, please don't flame/troll back, but instead report the flaming/trolling and let staff handle it. Consider this a warning. Next time someone will probably have to dish out infractions.