The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[null]

Say he's full of crap all you want -- but he said, explicitly, that he doesn't know if Tifa and Cloud share a romantic relationship.

And since Nomura said he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa share a romantic relationship after FFVII

You can't draw any meaningful conclusion from "I don't know".

You also keep leaving out the part where he said he doesn't care who loves who.

 

[Dashell]

And since Nomura said he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa share a romantic relationship after FFVII,

I'm sure this will get ignored but Nomura also said that FFVII AC profoundly grasps the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. This was months after the "I don't know."

Clearly he changed his mind.

Furthermore, Barret and Tifa were a family in AVALANCHE. Why would they stop being a family in AC?

Okay so can you find me some quotes that say that Barret and Tifa live together after realizing their feelings for each other? If it's the same type of family both times, this should be easy. There should be at least 8 quotes about Tifa and Barret's feelings.

 

[Strangelove]

知らない, which was used in the original text of that Nomura 'idk', can also carry the meaning of not caring about something. Which if he said he isn't bothered about who loves who earlier, might be the sense he is using it in when he later references Cloud and Tifa.

And 部屋 can have a wider usage that simply a single room, such as referring to an apartment as a whole.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Spoiler: screencaps of the FF9 Cloud and Aerith cameo

+ they're standing right outside a beat-up church building.

(i'd never seen this until recently, when my sis showed it to me when she was playing 9. love it.)

In retrospect, those lines feel a shitton more like Zack and Aerith than Cloud and Aerith. Especially the way Weimar gushes.

Whoops, I meant evolutionists do it to creationists. And I guess creationists do do a large amount of mocking of evolutionists, but that hardly counts because their mocking isn't funny. But I am an evolutionist, and I think creationists are as ignorant as cleriths. I've even expressed that view on this thread before. I can't believe I overlooked that mistake, though I was typing on my 3DS, so proofreading my poast would be a pain because poasting in general is a pain when you do it from a handheld device.

Fair enough. But yes, remember always that truth is determined by the merits of the evidence, not how well the insults cut.

Don't forget Cloud searching for the Promised Land in FF Tactics and running into a Flower Girl during his quest. In addition, Ramza uses the "HOLY" stone to summon Cloud.

So let's recap: Cloud is searching for the Promised Land (exactly what he said he would do at the end of FFVII so he could re-unite with Aerith), he runs into a Flower Girl who is selling flowers for 1 gil, who also asks if she "resembles" someone, and there is a stone called "HOLY" that summons Cloud. That's a pretty big homage if you ask me. Sure, it might not mean anything per-say; but SE is clearly paying some respect to the Cloud x Aerith ship. Try and diminish it all you want, but it's there.

Except that's wrong. Cloud ISN'T searching for the promised land. He's searching for the battlefield, for his Materia Blade- the thing he lost- and a way home. And it's the IIRC Aquarius Stone that summons Cloud. It's not called Holy. It's called Aquarius. Cloud is also, as mentioned, from the MIDDLE of the game, not the end. We're seeing Lifestream riding, Mako Poisoned, Xenogias cloud here. Oh, and the person waiting for him that Ramza references? That's Tifa. Sure there's an AU Aerith that Cloud protects because Cloud's not a jackass, but he then goes and ignores her and looks for a way back home. Back to Tifa.

So that's twice SE has paid homage to Cloud and Aerith in two separate games (Tactics, FFIX). Actually, three times if you count the ending of Dissida.

And three times in three games has a plot focus been on Cloud and Tifa's relationship and what they mean to each other, Including Dissidia 012.

I don't count flower fields as cameos, so the only "vague" reference you could be referring to is FFIX, I think? Aeris is still in KH1, Tactics, and 3DS Theatrhythm; Tifa is in none of these. I suppose she is in Ehrgeiz, but I can't think of anything else that Tifa's in that Aeris isn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Tifa is in Theatrythm- though it is the port- and interestingly, Her profile mentions her love for Cloud, Aerith's doesn't. Interesting thing to note.
Also, plot wise, Aerith is not in either Dissidia- she's a battle only model, no plot relation- nor is she in Ergheiz- where Tifa is summoner and Cloud is guardian- or DoC. But DoC is about Vincent and his issues.

Really, apart from curiosity, the AUs are all irrelevant, except for Dissidia and Maybe some of FFT, because they have no lasting impact on the 'real' examples and no lasting impact. Dissidia just gives us new and interesting information about characters in new situations without any lasting impact.

Though on that front, I have to wonder when in 13's timeline Lightinging was plucked from? Right at the end of it before becoming a Valkyrie?

lies and slander. Dissidia was completely rocking the Cloud/Firion thing tbh.

And what is Firion but Zack with more weapons?

Also, this is totally a nitpick, but the boys

Spoiler: hoggled

over Tifa? I mean, setting aside the stupidity of boys liking her making her a slut, what the hell was that supposed to even mean?

 

[Splintered]

Okay, this has been bugging me for a good while but I'm confused on this whole promise land thing.

I heard that the promise land was explicitly said to be where Cloud's family and friends are, I heard it was Aerith's church, then I heard a varying sort otherwise.

What are the references that say any of this?

 

[Strangelove]

Back on rooms for one second because I looked it up and everyone has to listen to me now:

http://roomselection.sub-cul.net/above.html

This link talks about 'rooms' above shops (convenience stores and restaurants), but refers to people living there. The ground floor is the business, and above that are living areas. That's how I read the OTWTAS quote; Tifa telling him not to drink and be moody down in the customers area and instead go into the living quarters.

Also the AC promised land quote was from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. The subheading just talks about 'the place Cloud wakes in' and the text mentions that Tifa, the kids, and the rest are there when he wakes up. 'Promised land = church' comes from reading of the subheading, the other pov from the prose.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks Aaron, I appreciate that

Been enjoying reading the posts, some interesting debate/discussion going on, including some of Blankbeat's actually (feel my Clerith vibes ) I personally do agree with some of it but yeah Pro Clerith, but not anti Cloti. Been enjoying reading your responses too Hawkeye, some of it was quite funny/made me giggle like the macking bit though personally I'd give the poor guy a hug and some gentle words of encouragement, but that's just me personally At least that's the way I like to be with people but yeah if there is kids involved changes things some and I guess I'd try to be the same way I always am at first but if that didn't work like it usually does for me then eventually I'd probably lose the plot and laydown the smackdown Also been enjoying Splintered's posts again, I can see the sense in them, they always seem quite balanced and diplomatic to me and I like the balance of them

**

For the FF9 thing it could be Cloud and Aerith or Zack and Aerith or even both I guess but ... Zack is Mr Personality. Isn't he? Maybe it's just the fanbase that thinks that I don't know, Zack seems to score high on personality with most peoples as far as I know. Also if I remember right Crisis Core is before FF9's time. For the Pluto Knight's personality mmm yeah I could see why that would seem more like Zack, but then again Cloud also seems/gets a bit gushy to me as far as flowers, etc are concerned, like when he expresses interest and concern over Aerith's flowers in the beginning of FF7 and in Aerith's church

 

[BlankBeat]

Thanks Aaron, I appreciate that

Been enjoying reading the posts, some interesting debate/discussion going on, including some of Blankbeat's actually (feel my Clerith vibes ) I personally do agree with some of it but yeah Pro Clerith, but not anti Cloti. Been enjoying reading your responses too Hawkeye, some of it was quite funny/made me giggle like the macking bit though personally I'd give the poor guy a hug and some gentle words of encouragement, but that's just me personally At least that's the way I like to be with people but yeah if there is kids involved changes things some and I guess I'd try to be the same way I always am at first but if that didn't work like it usually does for me then eventually I'd probably lose the plot and laydown the smackdown Also been enjoying Splintered's posts again, I can see the sense in them, they always seem quite balanced and diplomatic to me and I like the balance of them

**

For the FF9 thing it could be Cloud and Aerith or Zack and Aerith or even both I guess but ... Zack is Mr Personality. Isn't he? Maybe it's just the fanbase that thinks that I don't know, Zack seems to score high on personality with most peoples as far as I know. Also if I remember right Crisis Core is before FF9's time. For the Pluto Knight's personality mmm yeah I could see why that would seem more like Zack, but then again Cloud also seems/gets a bit gushy to me as far as flowers, etc are concerned, like when he expresses interest and concern over Aerith's flowers in the beginning of FF7 and in Aerith's church

Thanks for your post Maidenofwar.
I'd just like to say that FFIX is a reference to Cloud x Aerith NOT Zack x Aerith.

Not only is Cloud clearly referenced with the line, "He's handsome, but he's not exactly Mr. Personality...", but when Aerith is first introduced to Cloud in FFVII she is known as "Flower Girl", the same name given to her when she meets Cloud in FFT, and the same name given to her in FFIX.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems SE only uses the title of "Flower Girl" between Cloud and Aerith. And even if that's not the case, it seems to be a name SE has used in their cameo appearances.

Honestly, to try and make the argument that Pluto Knight 7 in FFIX is Zack is really reaching.

Not that the FF Wiki is the final word on everything, but here is what they have to say:

During Disc 3, Alexandria is in ruins. In front of the relatively intact steeple on the edge of town, a woman bearing the title of "Flower Girl" says, "He's handsome, but he's not exactly Mr. Personality..." in reference to Weimar, Pluto Knight VII. If one substitutes Alexandria for the collapsed Sector 7, its steeple for the Sector 5 Church, the Flower Girl and Weimer for Aerith Gainsborough and Cloud Strife, the similarities suggest a connection that is quite intentional.
Source

Anyway -- hopefully I can get around to the other responses in the next few days. Carry on!

 

[Unlucky]

Anyway -- hopefully I can get around to the other responses in the next few days. Carry on!

Looking forward to your answer to Quex's question which you have already been provided the links to.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Look at this line, and ask yourself, does that sound like something Cloud would say, at any point, or does it sound like something Zack would?

Also, philosophically speaking, the promised land is "wherever you find happiness," so while the header says where Cloud wakes up is his promised land- meaning, yes, the church- it's the body that describes WHY it is- his friends, his family, and for a short moment, reuniting with Zack and Aerith, but even as they leave, Cloud's still in his promised land, because his family (Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel), not to mention all his living friends are still with him, his disease is gone, his guilt is gone, and he CAN be happy again.

 

[Splintered]

Look at this line, and ask yourself, does that sound like something Cloud would say, at any point, or does it sound like something Zack would?

Yeah.... but it's pretty obvious what they are referencing. I don't see the point of trying to argue otherwise.

The promised land thing though, does throw a wrench in a lot of arguments. Namely the idea that Cloud was searching for a physical reuniting of Aerith in the promise land, when his promise land was always there to begin with and he was running away from it. And it's with everyone around him, not centered around one person, nor does it have romantic connotations.

Sometimes I wonder wtf the creators were smoking, they left the story with "let's go find the promise land, and maybe meet her there" and that always was intriguing. Then compilation comes around and immediately afterwards have Cloud express that he really wants to start a life with Tifa, never search for Aerith, and almost never mention it again like it never mattered. I mean as a Cloti that makes me happy, but wtf you can't explain yourselves a bit?

I suppose now it could be interpreted as, lets go find peace? And that Aerith's memory will be there, a place where he, and Tifa apparently, a place where they can both be happy and Aerith lives on through their hearts.

Then there's the earlier concept of Cloud saying, "We never got to see what is on the other side of the mountain." It has a different meaning, and obviously I don't count earlier concepts as canon, but you can look at that, look at what he meant by promise land, and maybe consider the idea that this was his way of saying let's start on the next journey- what's after this ordeal is the next great mystery after life- and that's where Aerith is anyway. And it works decently well with the ending, considering it left as a cliffhanger and we don't know if the world was destroyed.

EDIT

This popped up in another thread, it doesn't say much but it's still a nice CxA (unused limit break concepts)

 

[Fighter]

Too early to bring up the unused cloti chocobo stables rejection sex scene?

 

[Splintered]

So apparently besides people trying to edit in the Lifestream stuff in FF wikia, there's going to be a petition to start an edit Cloti out of Word of God on tv tropes. What is with shippers and edit wars.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah.... but it's pretty obvious what they are referencing. I don't see the point of trying to argue otherwise.

Let us call it 'poking fun at' FFVII rather than 'paying homage to' because either way, it's taking the piss at the hero and the flower girl thing.

The promised land thing though, does throw a wrench in a lot of arguments. Namely the idea that Cloud was searching for a physical reuniting of Aerith in the promise land, when his promise land was always there to begin with and he was running away from it. And it's with everyone around him, not centered around one person, nor does it have romantic connotations.

Sometimes I wonder wtf the creators were smoking, they left the story with "let's go find the promise land, and maybe meet her there" and that always was intriguing. Then compilation comes around and immediately afterwards have Cloud express that he really wants to start a life with Tifa, never search for Aerith, and almost never mention it again like it never mattered. I mean as a Cloti that makes me happy, but wtf you can't explain yourselves a bit?

Simple- When Cloud said it- He didn't know they might live. It's not a "these are my plans for the future" it's "Hey, Tifa, even if we don't make it, it's not the end, there's still the promised land. We can meet our friends, especially her, again." That's why Tifa smiles and agrees to go meet her and neither of them do. They lived, AND they got most of the closure they needed with her apparition smiling.

I suppose now it could be interpreted as, lets go find peace? And that Aerith's memory will be there, a place where he, and Tifa apparently, a place where they can both be happy and Aerith lives on through their hearts.

That also works, but strikes me a smidge forward thinking when 'Will we live through Holy' was still the big unanswered question of the game.

Then there's the earlier concept of Cloud saying, "We never got to see what is on the other side of the mountain." It has a different meaning, and obviously I don't count earlier concepts as canon, but you can look at that, look at what he meant by promise land, and maybe consider the idea that this was his way of saying let's start on the next journey- what's after this ordeal is the next great mystery after life- and that's where Aerith is anyway. And it works decently well with the ending, considering it left as a cliffhanger and we don't know if the world was destroyed.

Yeah, that's a lot more in line with how I think both the story was at and in terms of 'not being sure we're going to survive the next few hours even if we save the planet.'

EDIT

This popped up in another thread, it doesn't say much but it's still a nice CxA (unused limit break concepts)

Looks like Aerith gives a single character (and yeah, it's just character described, though Cloud is the model, so it looks like this was planned to be usable on anyone) a Statup, but I can't quite make out the characters for what the statup is supposed to be. Can anyone make out that middle character?

So apparently besides people trying to edit in the Lifestream stuff in FF wikia, there's going to be a petition to start an edit Cloti out of Word of God on tv tropes. What is with shippers and edit wars.

He who controls the Tropes controls dune. Or something to that effect.

 

[Strangelove]

That just looks like an unused limit break where she whispers something to a character and their attack power increases.

 

[JayM]

I can't really see the middle character clearly but I'd bet it's "攻撃力" - like hito said, attack power.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That just looks like an unused limit break where she whispers something to a character and their attack power increases.

I can't really see the middle character clearly but I'd bet it's "攻撃力" - like hito said, attack power.

That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure.

 

[Strangelove]

From what I can make out you selected one character to get the boost?

Spoiler: stuff I was mostly guessing is in brackets

”乙女の囁き”
○このモーションは全キャラ分のリアクション
"Maiden's Whisper"
- This animation is the reaction for all characters

１
ダッシュバック。
消える。
Dashes back.
Disappears.

【カメラ】エアリス(追&#12358
[camera] follows Aerith

２
ワープで（選択）キャラの（背後）に出現するエアリス。
Aerith warps behind the selected character.

【カメラ２】（選択）キャラ（表）から
[camera 2] from front of selected character

３
何やら囁く。
Whispers something.

４
エアリス　ワープ消え。
キャラ攻撃力UP!
Aeriths warps and disappears.
Char's attack power increases!

I had a look at the FFVII Ultimania Omega to see what it said about FFIX, but it doesn't mention the scene with the flower girl. It mentions the thing in the weapon shop and Rufus' theme, and even minor stuff like the names of babies in Crystal Chronicles being references to Cloud/Squall/Zidane or that a sprite of Cloud appears in the loading screen of FFV on the PS1, but not that. Even Googling doesn't seem to bring up any results for it linking it with FFVII. It might be more of a Western fandom thing. (Also I don't think that building they're in front of is a church? I only remember it being called a steeple and the inside doesn't look much like a church to me.)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Look at this line, and ask yourself, does that sound like something Cloud would say, at any point, or does it sound like something Zack would?

Given when FFIX came out, we didn't have a whole game to spend time with Zack's personality. While what little we saw of him in FFVII did paint him as more congenial than Cloud, the flower girl there says Weimar "isn't exactly Mr. Personality," which is a good description of Cloud, who was already known to FF fans at the time to be kind of awkward and simple.

As far as IX's developers go, they would be expecting players to associate this flower girl and the Pluto Knight with Aerith and Cloud.
----

The more I think about the Tactics appearance, by the way, the more I'm inclined to see this as the developers making a nod at a possible romance for Aerith and Cloud. We know they have a soft spot for those two, regardless of how things went in canon several years later.

While it was the Cancer Stone that pulled Cloud to Ivalice (not the Aquarius), Cloud is oddly made an Aquarius here instead of the Leo he should be. Aerith, of course, is an Aquarius.

Also, Cloud is the only male unit in Tactics who can equip the Ribbon. While one might be quick to say that this could be a reference to Cloud's stint as a crossdresser in Wallmarket since his dress had a ribbon on the backside, it's odd that he can equip the ribbon, but not any other female-exclusives. Were they referencing the Wallmarket disguise, you would think they would at least have also made the perfumes and something like the Cachusha equipable for him, as he could have a tiara and scents in Wallmarket.
----

I'll see what I can find out about Weimar and this flower girl in the Japanese FFIX.

 

[Strangelove]

The Japanese lines:

ワイマール：「この荒れ果てた町で、こんなひな菊のようにカレンでかわいいコと出会えるなんて、僕はなんという幸せ者なんだ！！」
花売り娘：「このひと、顔はいいんだけど、ちょっと性格がねぇ……」

I think the Japanese dialogue for the flower girl (his personality is kinda...) can have a wider range of what you can infer from it than 'not Mr. Personality' (which to me sounds like he seems dull?).

 

[JayM]

So basically, aside from what the localization team chose to do with the Flower Girl's dialogue, this is only a reference to VII because it's a flower girl and Weimar is Knight#7.

Which basically means it's...just an Aeris reference.

 

[Splintered]

I thought the Pluto Knights in general were a reference to the main installations of FF in general. There's nine of them right?

 

[JayM]

Right, which cements that the flower girl is supposed to be an Aeris reference. But the knight himself is (from that little bit of dialogue we have) not representative of Cloud, just making sure you know it's a reference to VII. IMO. Does that make sense?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I think the Pluto Knight VII line just goes to show how little the developers of IX understood VII(especially of Cloud's personality. That line does not sound like something Cloud would say, ever). That's my conclusion.
And even though Zack's personality wasn't fully flashed out yet when IX was made, didn't he at least have the happy go lucky womanizer aspect of his personalty already when VII was released? Or am I remembering wrong? I think it could still be a reference to him. If it isn't, then once again, IX's developers don't understand Cloud.

 

[Sikozu]

And even though Zack's personality wasn't fully flashed out yet when IX was made, didn't he at least have the happy go lucky womanizer aspect of his personalty already when VII was released? Or am I remembering wrong? I think it could still be a reference to him. If it isn't, then once again, IX's developers don't understand Cloud.

I think a Zack reference would have been a weird, kinda pointless thing to have been included at the time IX came out, because I don't think Zack was a popular enough character to warrant being referenced back then(not that I don't think anyone liked him or had any interest in him before Crisis Core, but he seems like a weird pick for a mention going just by the OG).

@FF9churchbuildingthing
I guess I just thought church because I usually associate steeples and stained glass windows with them. But it didn't look like it was used as a church in the game.

I guess that limit concept was what eventually turned into Aerith's Fury Brand? Now I'm pondering what Aerith would say to them to get them riled up... "Hey that monster just insulted your mama, GET HIM!"