The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

The fact that the flower girl even comments on the dude's personality, though, makes it sound like she's implying something negative. At least not positive, at any rate. And, again, Cloud's personality is kinda ... well, fill in the blank. Dull? Simple? Not as alluring as his face?

It fits.

I think looking at a soldier meeting a flower girl (what will that sound like to most FFVII veterans?) and expecting it to sound exactly like Cloud and Aerith talking is expecting too much from a reference in a game that made Madeen a female and Black Mages into condensed spirit poop.

 

[Zee]

I guess that limit concept was what eventually turned into Aerith's Fury Brand? Now I'm pondering what Aerith would say to them to get them riled up... "Hey that monster just insulted your mama, GET HIM!"

"Can't be yo momma cause I don't suck dick for crack."

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I noticed a discussion of Tactics earlier, and all I can say is, the Cloud is the real Cloud, most likely taken from the time when he disappeared and everyone thought he was dead, and the Aerith probably isn't the real Aerith, especially given that during the time period Cloud was most likely taken from Aerith was already dead.

And regarding other Non-compilation games Cloud and stuff appear in:

KH is not even in the same multiverse as FF(as far as we know, at least. I kinda hope GILGAMESH will make an appearance in the next KH, and have gotten there through a transdimensional portal as usual, thereby implying they're in the same multiverse. In any case, the FF characters in KH are not the same people as the ones in the FF games), so it's largely irrelevant, but in any case KH doesn't seem to have any canon pairings with any of the FF characters in it, so yeah, irrelevant.

There are little to no Aerith references in Dissidia unless you're wearing clerith goggles, so that's not relevant to the love triangle. And 012 is so pro-Cloud/Tifa that Tifa's the reason Cloud acts the way he does in the original Dissidia, and Aerith isn't even in 012 without getting DLC, and even then she's just an assist character, and she's not even in the storyline, so yeah, totally clerith gaiz. And Theatrhythm doesn't even have a plot, so fuck Theatrhythm. Hell, Theatrhythm even says Zack is the reason Aerith started crushing on Cloud, which kinda hurts the c/a argument.

And IX wasn't even made by the same people as VII(for the most part, at least), and doesn't have any VII characters in it, so it's completely irrelevant.

And then there's Ehrgeiz, which Aerith didn't appear in but Cloud and Tifa did, and featured Tifa as a summoner and Cloud as her guardian(methinks this game probably inspired the summoner and guardian thing in FFX), and also as a side note was the first ever playable appearance of Zack.

I'm sure a lot of that has been said before on this thread, but I had to get that out there. But yeah tl;dr non-compilation titles have little bearing on VII's canon, especially in regard to pairings. Also since I mentioned Gilgy, I'm just gonna say, if they ever remake VII, I think he should be a bonus boss.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I can only interpret that limit break one way

 

[Danseru-kun]

Though since you brought it up, I had been doing my own research and I will note that "淡い恋 +'fleeing love'" brings up quite a lot of results on google... (many of which are some song from the Hakuouki OST)


http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch/3/2na/03579900/

That uses this as an example:

Danseru, I'd like to, if possible, hear Risa's opinions on this as well.

Before I would get banned again, I would just like to comment on this one. It's indeed true that what Risa says and what the dictionary offered as an example disagree with each other, but then I just realized when I was reading the Bible that I disagree with some translations. (Okay I'm not here to talk about religion.)

@Matthew, I saw you post about creationists. That's not very courteous of you. Can I just say I get offended by that? Heck yeah maybe I shouldn't be because I'm just an ignorant person believing in an imaginary person in the sky.

Going back, For example, modest has been officially translated in our dictionaries as "mahinhin" which I vehemently disagree with and also some scholars might do. Modesty in english is simply being modest, may also refer to the lack of extravagance. However mahinhin is not just being modest, but also being specifically feminine. Also mahinhin can be very extravagant unlike modest.

So that's what I can say for that thing. A Japanese native may have a different take on how dictionaries translate their language.

And LOL I can see where the discussion is going, I've missed some but I can't afford to participate for now. BTW if you looked in my tumblr I've found Barret's drawing in the children's room.

For now, I laugh whenever fan translations are not believed because they're not official, but then when it's for Clerith it's factual. Double standards crack me up in ways more than one. All you have to do is to see the Japanese characters if they match and clearly what Cloud and Tifa feel for each other is the same thing Aerith feels for Cloud.

BTW I also made a post why the HAHW scene is canon in tumblr. I'll just share it here:

It just takes simple steps. First, we accept the fact that there are two versions;second, we look at the sources describing the two versions, and lastly acknowledging the evidences confirming which version happened.
Here are the so called quotes proving Cloti is only “optional”

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy” ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
*“Deviation – Two versions of the conversation before the final battle Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.” ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
*note that this is only a small footnote
“dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn” and “Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance” will be different.” ~FFVII Dismantled, page 201
​

These three quotes doesn’t talk about feelings exchanged, just the conversation changes so we really cannot use this to negate that Cloud and Tifa exchanged feelings.
Now we have this quote

“FFVIIUO, pg. 27: If Tifa’s affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match.”
​

It says here that in the HAHW version, feelings are exchanged. There is nothing saying that there are feelings exchanged in the LAHW version, nothing at all.
And now here are the evidences that Cloud and Tifa exchanged feelings just as what happened in HAHW scene:
1. When SE summarized FFVII in a script, only the HAHW scene is included in the FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242

2. They summarized again the story in the Ultimanias and only included the HAHW scene, with screencaps:

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想い)を打ち明け、そして……。

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想い)を打ち明け、確かめ合う。

“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
​

3. Only the HAHW scene is represented in FFVII’s Four Most Impressive scenes that along with Aerith’s death
4. Character profiles say feelings for each other are communicated

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “

(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”


​

4. The “For the One I Love Page” lists Cloud and Tifa along with Ingus/Sarah, Squall/Rinoa, Celes/Locke, Steiner/Beatrix, Tidus/Yuna and confirms that the HW scene is romantic regardless of the version. Also the page has a separate entry for friendship that does not include Cloud and Tifa.

VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
​

5. References to the HAHW scene
- “Words aren’t the only way to convey your feelings…” is Tifa’s secret line in Dissidia that can be heard in her EX burst
-Tifa’s figurine has this line
-Tifa’s Final Fantasy collection card also reference this

“Words aren’t the only way…”

ティファは固く口を閉ざす… アバランチのメンバーとしてクラウドと再会した彼女は、 ５年前のニブルへイム事件の時からのクラウドの変貌に疑問を抱く。 クラウドへの幼なじみを超えた複雑な想いは、 クラウドの持つ内面的なトラウマを解きほぐしていく…。 それは、 攸女自身の過去への旅でもあった…

Tifa keeps her mouth shut tight. As a member of AVALANCHE she was reunited with Cloud. She holds doubts about his transformation after the Nibelhiem incident 5 years ago. Her complicated feelings for Cloud that exceeded childhood friendship unravel the internal trauma Cloud possesses. That was also a journey into her own past…
​

-Tifa’s Memorial Words and Scenes in the FFVII 25th AU

The Fateful Night the Two Share
An event near the time of the final battle with Sephiroth, where Cloud and Tifa stay at the airship Highwind together. With this possibly being the end — an evening overcome with a flood of feelings becomes something special.

Japanese text:
ふたりで過ごした運命の一夜
セフィロスとの決戦を間近にひかえ、クラウドとふたりきりで飛空艇ハイウインドにとどまったティファ。これで最後かもしれない——万感の想いがこまった一夜は特別なものに 。
FFVII 25thAU Tifa’s Memorial Scenes

Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking…”
Prairie: The last night before the final battle, to Cloud when he finds himself at a loss for words
Caption:
For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire towards one another
*edit: partnership is not the best translation

Japanese text:
長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。セフィロスとの最終決戦を目前にようやく、相手を求める気持ちを確かめ合えた。
Tifa’s Memorial Lines FFVII 25th AU
​

Conclusion: Because feelings are only exchanged in the HAHW version and numerous sources say this happened- HAHW scene is canon. Cloud and Tifa exchanged romantic feelings under the Highwind

Recommended reading:

• Canon Final Fantasy couples like Squal/Rinoa,Tidus/Yuna,Locke/Celes using this phrase
• Japanese people using this phrase for romance in dating/love sites

Some shippers tend to ignore the fact that other canon couples use this phrase and I've heard someone the google search is unreliable because it's google. So yeah... Japanese people using their language in google isn't reliable.

Goodbye folks, see you some time again ^^,

 

[Danseru-kun]

Why am I not banned yet?

Anyway, I just found out there is another instance where Cloud laughed, and it's not the time when he's under the influence of Jenova. Here it is:

Tifa and Cloud sipped their alcohol slowly. Barret was drinking so much that you could probably bathe in the amount he drank. He looked like he was enjoying it and talked about his memories of peaceful times. Drunk, he fell into a well and spoke nonsense about proposing to his dead wife. It had been a long time since Tifa and Cloud burst out laughing.

So yeah, it strengthens the CloudxBarretxTifa element because this is the only stated time where Cloud laughed as Cloud.

And how could I have missed that Tifa is actually the one who wanted to adopt Denzel? Cloud just want to bring Denzel back and help him, but Tifa is the one who proposed to keep him.

After Denzel recovered, she listened to his story about everything that happened to him before he arrived here. Then she thought to herself that he was supposed to come here. Denzel’s parents were among the victims when Sector Seven was destroyed.. The reason why Sector Seven was destroyed was because of AVALANCHE. That’s why I had to take responsibility and raise him. He met Cloud so that he could come to me.

Tifa discussed with Cloud and Marlene about how she wanted to welcome Denzel into their family. Cloud nodded silently, but Marlene was full of joy.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Okay time to revive the thread, some Japanese geekery again. I have another Japanese friend named Yoko (Risa already left) and she's in my house right now and I consulted this.

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)

最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “

(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”

She says that the quote here is undeniably romantic and intrinsically, these are expressing feelings without using words. So 想いを通わせ it itself expressing romantic feelings without words and she said it's a very deep expression.

However there's something different.

(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想&#12356を打ち明け合う。

“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”

She says these quote implies the usage of words, and most about romantic expression. So these quotes say confession of romantic feelings, they are a bit different with the first quote where there is a deep communication of romantic feelings without using words at all.

So I say we treat these phrases differently and they're not actually the same even if they're similar.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

Hi I'm a Clerith fan and I never debated before so I thought it might be fun to give this thread a try. I'm not really sure where to jump in though... sorry I'm new to forums in general really lol.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Welcome. What would you be interested in debating?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/psp/920785-final-fantasy-vii-advent-children/faqs/39217

Bujurururu! YOUR-CLERITH-ARGUMENT-IS-INVALID.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

Welcome. What would you be interested in debating?

Yeah that's why I came here! I thought it might be fun to try it out since I've never done an LTD before. I always found it sort of intimidating but whenever I look for LTD stuff to read this site always appears so I decided to give it a shot.

Oh I'm sorry I read that as "would you be interested in debating" not "what". I can't edit my post either unless I can't see it. This is my first impression oh no~ Well shoot.
I'd be interested in debating anything really are there any topics you've always wondered about from a Clerith standpoint maybe? I've always wondered why a lot of CT fans don't believe Cloud loved Aerith even a little, or at all for starters.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I merged your posts for you.

You should be able to edit now. I changed your usergroup to a regular member rather than "Newbie."

I honestly can't think of any topics at the moment that I've been dying to debate, though I'm sure there's something that would be interesting to hear from you. I agree that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, by the way.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

Thank you so much lol. Oh it's cool that you agree with that at least, when do you think his romantic feelings for Aerith started and ended? I guess something I'm wanting to hear from CT fans is why they think the Highwind part of the game is so romantic and how the "I'm here - we're here for you" scene is not. Just to throw some random starting points out there. To me I find Cloud and Tifa sharing a moment of mutual loneliness to be really unromantic. If you look at the way Cloud treats Aerith when she's alone, you see that he is supportive of her and says he's there for her but when Tifa expresses her loneliness he just says "me too" pretty much and it always seemed more like a friendship to me since he's closed off towards her but much more forwards to Aerith. What do you think?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

All right, first of all, the I'm we're here for you scene is not inherently romantic, as the FFVIII Plot Analysis written by Squall of Seed(who happens to be the guy you were just talking to) that I poasted a link to in my previous poast will tell you. I personally think it was to show how since Cloud's been a loner most of his life he's not used to being in a group yet. And the Highwind scene(or at least, the High Affection version, which happens to be the canon one) is an obvious sex scene, and has even been said by the makers to be one(not explicitly, but it's been described as being risque, a word with sexual connotations, and the U20 sys that in it Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feeling without using words. One can clearly put two and two together and realize the creators mean they had sex. Said mutual feelings btw are ones of romantic love, given that said U20 quote is from a section of the book dedicated to confessions of romantic love).

 

[Splintered]

To me I find Cloud and Tifa sharing a moment of mutual loneliness to be really unromantic.

I disagree that this is what the point of the Highwind scene is. I think the point is the culmination of the Lifestream moment. That is, to say, they have always had each other, and communication.

Tifa and Cloud have, imo, three repeating themes in the game. Promises, timing, and most important not only to their relationship but to who they are people- communication. Both Cloud and Tifa have issues with communicating their real feelings, Cloud hidden through the complex of his mind and Tifa through her insecurities.

From the lifestream event (which is connected thematically to Highwind) besides finding who Cloud was and Tifa finally confronting the thing she was scared of (the unknown truth although at that point she had nothing left to lose), they really communicated. In a way they haven't with any other character in the game. They showed their own feelings, the feelings they had throughout childhood, through the promises, and Tifa promised to tell Cloud that "she waited for him"- communicating her feelings about that time. They did it together and it was the most intimate form of soul searching for each other in the game imo.

Connecting that to the Highwind scene, or at least the high affectionate scene, is an extension of those events; Tifa and Cloud communicating to each other. They talk about hearing each other's voices, they talk about whether or not the stars can hear them, and it ends with "words aren't the only way to tell each other how you feel." IMO, it's clearly building from the moment in which they bore all in the Lifestream event. To me, it makes little sense that a non communicative scene follows the lifestream event.

Even the databook points to this, saying that they communicating their feelings without words. Disregarding the implied sex, it's still a profound moment. Because it shows that Cloud and Tifa aren't about "not communicating" it's about how they get over their issues to come together and really begin to understand who each other are.

I also think that these moments also directly bleed into CoT and AC/C, in which Cloud responds to Tifa's "You've always had me" to "it's different now." It signals to me that something fundamentally changed in their relationship. We also see a lapse in the strength in the relationship when Cloud begins to breakdown in guilt and it falls into the bad habits of bad communication. But it also shows them having the difficult conversations and rebuilding it.

Also I don't think it was "two people who are also lonely" in Highwind. It was about that two people, who lost absolutely everything, their families, their friends, their homes, but it was okay because they had each other. There was a big scary battle in the end, and they might die but they could face it- together.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

I personally think it was to show how since Cloud's been a loner most of his life he's not used to being in a group yet.

That's a pretty good point and it's probably true that Cloud isn't used to being in a group, but he has had others close to him before like Zack and Tifa. I think he knows whether to refer to someone individually or not. It seemed he was going to tell her specifically that he was there for her but changed it to "we" because he wanted to include them as well. To me it was like he was saying I - as well as the others - are here for you. It also feels like he's trying to cover the fact he was going to say just himself was there for her. Since he agreed to be her bodyguard and he's spent a lot of time with her up to that point too, it comes off like he's a bit embarrassed that he pretty much confessed he was specifically there for her when she expressed she was feeling alone. So those two different ways is how I possibly see it.

is an obvious sex scene, and has even been said by the makers to be one(not explicitly, but it's been described as being risque, a word with sexual connotations, and the U20 sys that in it Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feeling without using words. One can clearly put two and two together and realize the creators mean they had sex. Said mutual feelings btw are ones of romantic love, given that said U20 quote is from a section of the book dedicated to confessions of romantic love).

Obvious sex scene...? I didn't find it so obvious because I thought their conversation was a bit empty and some what awkward especially the first time I played when I got the low version. It was described as risque and changed because they didn't want people to get the wrong impression from it right? And when Tifa said words aren't the only way I always thought she meant the fact that they can just be alone together in comfortable silence and still know what one another is feeling not that they had sex. O__O I know in many relationships especially friendships you can just be comfortable being the presence of someone and that's always what I thought she meant by words aren't the only way. It's one of my favorite Tifa lines cause of that.

Both Cloud and Tifa have issues with communicating their real feelings, Cloud hidden through the complex of his mind and Tifa through her insecurities.

Here's part I agree with. They both have issues communicating and that's a certain reason why I think Cloud and Tifa are a poor match because they are too alike. The way Aerith was very forward and not insecure about how she felt seemed to make Cloud and others open up to her more. She got Cloud to laugh at the beginning of the game and he willingly promised to be her body guard and was actually nice to her from the start until the finish. The Cloud that meets Tifa in the start still appears to be kind of cold and uncaring until a bit later. I feel like Aerith was a person that got to Cloud in a way that Tifa could not.
I see that they discovered the truth about their childhood, but not about the present? It showed a lot of pain between the both of them and a lot of complicated feelings. But feelings do changed over time and I feel like their child hood truth was found out a little too late to me? I feel like Cloud's feelings for Aerith were too strong for the resolved tension between them to revive any feelings from their child hood crush. I have no doubts that Tifa loves Cloud with all her heart but when it comes to Cloud I never really saw him showing that he loved her back just that he cared for her deeply as a friend.
For your "It's different now" quote I feel it's different because it is! Not romantically but they've come a long way as friends and as people. They resolved their past together and discovered the truth like you said, but I just don't see how it's romantic at all because it seems the bond he has with Aerith is a lot stronger to me. It shows a clear difference between romance and friendship to me. It seems "everything is okay because they have each other" was never really voiced between the two characters though. When Aerith says she's alone Cloud says that he and everyone else is there for her. When Tifa says she's alone Cloud pretty much says he doesn't have anything either. I don't remember him ever saying all he has is Tifa.

 

[Splintered]

Here's part I agree with. They both have issues communicating and that's a certain reason why I think Cloud and Tifa are a poor match because they are too alike.

I don't think it's poor match, but I think it's hard. Like I said, Tifa and Cloud aren't a story of failed communication, because in the end they always do when it really matters. Not only that but when they do, they come to new discoveries of themselves.

I believe if they were a poor match, there was no way they could survive. You cannot be in a relationship with Cloud, romantic or otherwise, and be a poor match and be able to survive the years of guilt, terminal illness, and watching children you raise suffer. They didn't just get through it, they managed to do it smiling.

It was hard, but it didn't mean it wasn't worth it, and it doesn't degrade the quality of their relationship. There are some fictional stories about people who get together and it's automatically perfect and the stars align, but I think Tifa and Cloud's relationship is a more organic story, about to broken people who manage to struggle but most importantly overcome their issues together. There's fighting because life is hard and communication is hard, but in the end its worth it. And not only that, they come out stronger.

But I also think that Tifa and Cloud draw a lot of strength from each other. Tifa is very nurturing of Cloud, to the point that some people thought it was motherly, but it's really a mixture of all kinds of things, including romantic love (don't get me started on how much I think "Tifa/Aerith are motherly figures to Cloud" is bullshit) but it's also what Cloud really needed at his lowest of points. And Tifa finds comfort with Cloud as well, even with the insecurities it brings.

It's not a perfect relationship, but it's one that's dynamic and ultimately fulfilling.

The way Aerith was very forward and not insecure about how she felt seemed to make Cloud and others open up to her more.

I just think there's almost nothing worth comparing CxA and CxT, although LTD would try to do it constantly. Just because one person is compatible with another, it doesn't mean the other person wouldn't be. And just because one relationship fails means another would flourish. Even one of the creators said "maybe things would have been better with Aerith, but I feel that there's a great burden from her" which tells me that they would have their own separate issues, because they are their own separate relationship.

I'm one of the Cloti's that believe Cloud had feelings, or were starting to have feelings for Aerith. And I firmly believe that these do not in any way, minimize the impact of his relationship with Tifa.

I feel the same way with ZackxAerith, where Zack and Aerith were absolutely romantic and they were extremely compatible, and that doesn't take away from CloudxAerith.

I see that they discovered the truth about their childhood, but not about the present?

The Lifestream wasn't just about the past, it was building to him to where he was in the present, and at the core of who he is- that promise and how important Tifa is to him is a part of him. It's not even until Tifa's resolve wavers does Cloud's fake persona absolutely begins to crumble, and it's not until they work together does he get back up on his feet.

When Tifa tells little Cloud that she read for him in all the papers, little Cloud tells her to tell the real Cloud that as he would be happy (at least this is what I remember at the top of my head). Tifa's isn't "just a good friend" to Cloud, romantic or not romantic. Tifa is vital to Cloud, and that significance hasn't wavered at all throughout the years. One of the creators (I think it was Nojima?) said that no matter what was going on- Cloud and Tifa would be together, whether he meant as a romantic relationship isn't clear but what is- they are central figures in their lives and they need to be at each others side.

You know, I suppose it could be argued that that importance of Tifa in his life, but given the weight and the clear romantic context of all the scenes... I just don't see it.

For your "It's different now" quote I feel it's different because it is!

I always felt the line was meant to stress how far they came together, like their relationship has evolved in some way. About it's not just "being together" as much as it shows how much they want to be in each others lives.

*sighs and looks for the actual quote*

[QUOTE="Case of Tifa]“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.[/QUOTE]
Cloud laments about how he always failed at the things he does, but everything is going to be okay. Because has Tifa. And not just in a way that means "I'll fight next to you." In a different, not specified, but obviously significant way. A way that leads them a life of living together.

I don't remember him ever saying all he has is Tifa.

IMO, it's implied. Especially their bond, or when Cloud says that he'll make enough ruckus in the highwind for the both of them. The Highwind scene was about them coming together, not about "oh well i got nothing else to do lol" because it clearly means something to the both of them.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah that's why I came here! I thought it might be fun to try it out since I've never done an LTD before. I always found it sort of intimidating but whenever I look for LTD stuff to read this site always appears so I decided to give it a shot.

Oh I'm sorry I read that as "would you be interested in debating" not "what". I can't edit my post either unless I can't see it. This is my first impression oh no~ Well shoot.
I'd be interested in debating anything really are there any topics you've always wondered about from a Clerith standpoint maybe? I've always wondered why a lot of CT fans don't believe Cloud loved Aerith even a little, or at all for starters.

Well, if we're drawing a line between 'attracted to' and 'seriously in love' then it's because there's little to suggest he actually had a serious intent towards her. Remember, he was completely oblivious of her intentions the entire time she was alive.

Thank you so much lol. Oh it's cool that you agree with that at least, when do you think his romantic feelings for Aerith started and ended? I guess something I'm wanting to hear from CT fans is why they think the Highwind part of the game is so romantic and how the "I'm here - we're here for you" scene is not. Just to throw some random starting points out there. To me I find Cloud and Tifa sharing a moment of mutual loneliness to be really unromantic. If you look at the way Cloud treats Aerith when she's alone, you see that he is supportive of her and says he's there for her but when Tifa expresses her loneliness he just says "me too" pretty much and it always seemed more like a friendship to me since he's closed off towards her but much more forwards to Aerith. What do you think?

Cloud isn't closed off to Tifa, he's actually the most open he ever is to Tifa. In point of fact, that he's closed off 'even to' Tifa is given as a sign of how alone he is in Advent Children. Cloud is really happy around Tifa, and tries to be supportive of her too, or at least not hurt her with his problems. He actually withdraws in AC/C so as not to drag her and the kids down with his issues.

That's a pretty good point and it's probably true that Cloud isn't used to being in a group, but he has had others close to him before like Zack and Tifa. I think he knows whether to refer to someone individually or not. It seemed he was going to tell her specifically that he was there for her but changed it to "we" because he wanted to include them as well. To me it was like he was saying I - as well as the others - are here for you. It also feels like he's trying to cover the fact he was going to say just himself was there for her. Since he agreed to be her bodyguard and he's spent a lot of time with her up to that point too, it comes off like he's a bit embarrassed that he pretty much confessed he was specifically there for her when she expressed she was feeling alone. So those two different ways is how I possibly see it.

Alternately, it could simply be him not understanding. Aerith feels alone, and Cloud doesn't understand. "How can you be alone? I'm here! We're all here!" It doesn't need to be romantic, it's just reinforcement. I'm here, we're all here for you.

Obvious sex scene...? I didn't find it so obvious because I thought their conversation was a bit empty and some what awkward especially the first time I played when I got the low version. It was described as risque and changed because they didn't want people to get the wrong impression from it right? And when Tifa said words aren't the only way I always thought she meant the fact that they can just be alone together in comfortable silence and still know what one another is feeling not that they had sex. O__O I know in many relationships especially friendships you can just be comfortable being the presence of someone and that's always what I thought she meant by words aren't the only way. It's one of my favorite Tifa lines cause of that.

That line ITSELF is described as being risque. If it implies they just sat together comfortably, then it's not a risque line. It must, at the minimum, imply a physical intimacy.

Here's part I agree with. They both have issues communicating and that's a certain reason why I think Cloud and Tifa are a poor match because they are too alike. The way Aerith was very forward and not insecure about how she felt seemed to make Cloud and others open up to her more. She got Cloud to laugh at the beginning of the game and he willingly promised to be her body guard and was actually nice to her from the start until the finish.

Technically, he never promises one way or the other. He just sort of shrugs it off and deals with the turks.

The Cloud that meets Tifa in the start still appears to be kind of cold and uncaring until a bit later.

He was cold until Tifa reminded him of his promise and asked him to be nice. Cloud always cares about what Tifa said. As Cloud himself said, what Tifa said and believed mattered most.

I feel like Aerith was a person that got to Cloud in a way that Tifa could not.

Aerith got to everyone in a way that no one else could, but Tifa got to Cloud in a way Aerith never could.

I see that they discovered the truth about their childhood, but not about the present? It showed a lot of pain between the both of them and a lot of complicated feelings. But feelings do changed over time and I feel like their child hood truth was found out a little too late to me?

But the truth was of feelings Cloud was still holding. It's never too late.

I feel like Cloud's feelings for Aerith were too strong for the resolved tension between them to revive any feelings from their child hood crush.

Too strong? Cloud knew Aerith for two weeks.

I have no doubts that Tifa loves Cloud with all her heart but when it comes to Cloud I never really saw him showing that he loved her back just that he cared for her deeply as a friend.

Cloud joined SOLDIER to impress Tifa. Cloud's promise to Tifa and being the knight she wanted is one of the most important things to him. When Cloud thinks he's a fake, his last wish is for Tifa to meet real Cloud so she can be happy. Cloud expresses a lot of loving Tifa, even before the Lifestream and the Highwind.

For your "It's different now" quote I feel it's different because it is! Not romantically but they've come a long way as friends and as people. They resolved their past together and discovered the truth like you said, but I just don't see how it's romantic at all because it seems the bond he has with Aerith is a lot stronger to me. It shows a clear difference between romance and friendship to me. It seems "everything is okay because they have each other" was never really voiced between the two characters though. When Aerith says she's alone Cloud says that he and everyone else is there for her. When Tifa says she's alone Cloud pretty much says he doesn't have anything either. I don't remember him ever saying all he has is Tifa.

You've said many times that 'it seems' and you 'feel' that Cloud and Aerith have a very strong bond. Could you please demonstrate examples of this?

I can point to instances of Cloud's words and actions, Tifa's words and actions, Their friend's words, Ultimania statements and creator's quotes to indicate that Cloud and Tifa are beyond a shadow of a doubt involved romantically.

Cloud and Tifa confessed their mutual feelings for one another under the highwind. This confession was worth including on the 'For the One I love' page in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania, and the High Highwind scene was one of the four most notworthy scenes of the game, along with Aerith's death. Cloud and Tifa live together as a result of their confession, they formed a family together, they have a future together. Cloud thinks of Tifa as the mother of their family, and Tifa thinks of him as the father, and Denzel likewise thinks of them as his parents. One of Tifa's roles in the world is someone's beloved. Cloud is happy living with Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. These are his family. Cloud belongs with Tifa, and this was the first thing that Nojima cemented about the plot of Advent Children.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

To Splintered::

Really? I always felt like Tifa and Cloud always had a failure to communicate, which is why they had such tension about the past in the first place. Even Tifa couldn't recall things in the correct way and nothing had affected her mind the way Cloud's had been affected. I always felt that Tifa could read Cloud's feelings very well but Cloud could never begin to understand hers which is why I don't see it really working. When Advent Children comes along Cloud is off doing his own thing and running from his problems regardless of his reasons I feel like if Aerith were there he never would have run away from any problem and he definitely wouldn't have ignored her the way he seemed to ignore Tifa and everyone else. I guess I should rephrase and say that I think they are a poor match for a relationship. As a friendship though they are good because they can relate well to one another but relating and understanding and supporting are all very different things. I didn't mean that all pairings have to be perfect just that the way Cloud and Tifa interact doesn't strike me as romantic. I think Cloud and Aerith would have their share of fights if they were ever in a relationship, but how I see it Cloud was able to communicate with Aerith easily even though he'd known Tifa for years he still had trouble speaking to her about his feelings while Cloud and Aerith just clicked. Now that you mention other pairings I feel like Cloud and Tifa were a past relationship the same way Zack and Aerith were a past relationship. Their feelings were all in the past and I think Cloud and Aerith are both moving on from those past feelings and ready to find a new love in one another. Ithink just because Tifa is important to him and they are connected deeply doesn't mean it's of love but I see why you would think that it is. I guess I feel the spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith is just so much stronger than the that. and of course Cloud would be happy? Why wouldn't he be happy knowing that Tifa cared about him? Moreover why didn't Cloud know that in the first place, I think that's a problem. I think when I see that quote is that they have evolved in their relationship yeah. they can communicate better than they did in FFVII because things have changed. Becoming closer and resolving issues happens between friends all the time so I don't see the romance when itcomes to that. I see Cloud and Tifa as a great friendship so him saying he'll make enough noise for the both of them is him trying to cheer her up so that's where I stand on that?

To Ryushikaze::

Oblivious of which intentions exactly?
I never saw the point where he was more//most open towards Tifa. I saw him promising to be Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for nothing but her company, I saw him comforting her when she felt alone, I saw him saying he wanted to meet her at the end of the game and that their date scene is the most romantic. I also see the impact of Cloud's words after Aerith dies and his extreme longing towards her in Advent Children. I don't deny Cloud is happy with Tifa but I also feel like their relationship is strained at some points. I also find that Tifa is very insecure when it comes to Cloud and Aerith and even becomes jealous. Aerith was always confident about her feelings and her relationship so I think that's one thing that helped keep the CA relationship strong. Cloud always seemed to be more confident in regards to Aerith the way I've seen it. I don't think Cloud is stupid enough to not understand it feels more reassuring to me than anything. And why mention himself individually instead of saying "we're all here for you" instead he stumbles and says "i" first.
He did confirm the promise though because if he didn't then... he wouldn't have acted upon it lol. he also tells her at one point: "Im your bodyguard, right?". He is completely fine with that and with Aerith referring to him as that. And he wouldn't have had the option to date Aerith ever. He said Tifa's opinion mattered the most but didn't he say that when Tifa herself says "that's wrong" right afterwards?
I think Aerith can never have the bond Cloud and Tifa have in the way that she hasn't shared a past with Cloud and is still getting to know him but also Tifa can't reach Cloud the way Aerith has which is getting him to open up the way he did to her.
I really don't think time frame matters when it comes to your heart. I know that sounds really corny but just because Cloud and Aerith knew one another for a short period of time it doesn't make their feelings matter less just because Tifa has known him longer. In a short period of time Aerith affected Cloud heavily, so much that he formed an extremely strong bond with her. He was sad losing her in his life, he still thought about her and felt guilt towards her, he wanted to meet her and protect her, more than I feel - anyone else.
I listed some examples already but another one is before Aerith leaves and she appears to Cloud in his dream is one of the most romantic moments. She's playful and light hearted and Cloud chases after her in the end and right when he wakes up he wants to find her immediately. Aerith shows that she knows Cloud extremely well in that instance too. When he steps foot in the forgotten city he says he can sense Aerith's presence which is really strong to me. When Aerith dies Cloud says "what about us" and I feel he is referring to he and Aerith. Aerith also saw through to the real Cloud without being told anything about it. She just knew. Marlene is also always very insistent that Cloud and Aerith should be together/have feelings for one another.

 

[Ami]

Here's my two cents, at the risk of being shot down.

I've always thought it was Tifa, right from the moment the two interacted. They've got history, him wanting to impress her by going into SOLDIER and her activating the promise by the well. They both genuinely care for one another (perhaps Tifa more than Cloud, as he's an emo xD). I totally believe they did it on the Highwind, too.

However, saying that, I think Aerith/Aeris (which one are we using? It's hard to keep track nowadays) may have had a thing for Cloud. Just a thing. I do believe she loved Zack and my feelings of this proved stronger after playing through Crisis Core. I only believe she may have liked Cloud a little because he reminded her of Zack. But that's about it. I don't think Cloud had any genuine feelings towards her, only the regret of being unable to save her, which is alluded to more times in the series than I can count how many pyjamas I have.

So my short answer is Tifa. Cloud loves Tifa. I don't mind anyone else obviously disagreeing and saying he loves our girl in pink, but that's just how I feel.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Here's my two cents, at the risk of being shot down.

I've always thought it was Tifa, right from the moment the two interacted. They've got history, him wanting to impress her by going into SOLDIER and her activating the promise by the well. They both genuinely care for one another (perhaps Tifa more than Cloud, as he's an emo xD). I totally believe they did it on the Highwind, too.

However, saying that, I think Aerith/Aeris (which one are we using? It's hard to keep track nowadays) may have had a thing for Cloud. Just a thing. I do believe she loved Zack and my feelings of this proved stronger after playing through Crisis Core. I only believe she may have liked Cloud a little because he reminded her of Zack. But that's about it. I don't think Cloud had any genuine feelings towards her, only the regret of being unable to save her, which is alluded to more times in the series than I can count how many pyjamas I have.

So my short answer is Tifa. Cloud loves Tifa. I don't mind anyone else obviously disagreeing and saying he loves our girl in pink, but that's just how I feel.

This is mostly true but I'm going to have to disagree that Aerith only liked Cloud just a little. The creators have made it clear that she was in love with Cloud, even though said love came about due to his similarities to Zack, and in CotLW, she even describes Cloud as being her beloved.

Also, here's my take on whether or not Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith: I believe it's up to player interpretation. I do think he was attracted to her, but that doesn't mean he had romantic interest in her, I have no romantic interest in any of the girls I'm attracted to. I doubt he was in love with her, and he most certainly didn't love her moar than Tifa. But as for if he had romantic interest, I think it's up to the player.

And Junko, I'm going to have to disagree with the Cloud is nice to Aerith from start to finish notion. Not only does he try to ditch her the day he meets her in order to try and find Tifa, but the player has a few opportunities to be a dick to her, such as at the end of the date with her, when you have the option to tell her you don't like spending time with her. And then there's the scene where he slaps her, but he was possessed by Seph so that doesn't count.

And the HA Highwind scene is an obvious sex scene since it has Tifa saying a risque line, followed by a fade to black after which we see Cloud and Tifa cuddled next to each other, and then on board the airship Tifa says "Were you watching?" and promptly faints while Cloud scratches the back of his head nervously, and then when he talks to Yuffie she notices he's happier than usual. This is how they used to handle sex scenes in the old days of film. It's rather cliche, really.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To Splintered::

Really? I always felt like Tifa and Cloud always had a failure to communicate, which is why they had such tension about the past in the first place. Even Tifa couldn't recall things in the correct way and nothing had affected her mind the way Cloud's had been affected.

You can't recall things the correct way. I can't recall things the correct way. Human memory is often incredibly fallible and prone to rewriting itself.

I always felt that Tifa could read Cloud's feelings very well but Cloud could never begin to understand hers which is why I don't see it really working. When Advent Children comes along Cloud is off doing his own thing and running from his problems regardless of his reasons I feel like if Aerith were there he never would have run away from any problem and he definitely wouldn't have ignored her the way he seemed to ignore Tifa and everyone else.

If Aerith were there it would have changed the nature of the problems because much of Cloud's issue were the incredible guilt he felt at letting her and Zack die and how that made him feel guilty for being happy with Tifa and the kids and the happier he felt more that guilt weighed him down.

I guess I should rephrase and say that I think they are a poor match for a relationship. As a friendship though they are good because they can relate well to one another but relating and understanding and supporting are all very different things. I didn't mean that all pairings have to be perfect just that the way Cloud and Tifa interact doesn't strike me as romantic. I think Cloud and Aerith would have their share of fights if they were ever in a relationship, but how I see it Cloud was able to communicate with Aerith easily even though he'd known Tifa for years he still had trouble speaking to her about his feelings while Cloud and Aerith just clicked.

Again, though, Aerith and EVERYONE "just clicked." Aerith and Tifa just clicked. AeTi for the win?

Now that you mention other pairings I feel like Cloud and Tifa were a past relationship the same way Zack and Aerith were a past relationship. Their feelings were all in the past and I think Cloud and Aerith are both moving on from those past feelings and ready to find a new love in one another.

Neither Cloud's feelings for Tifa nor Aerith's feelings for Zack were in the past. Now, Aerith was TRYING to put Zack behind her, but she hadn't succeeded yet.

Ithink just because Tifa is important to him and they are connected deeply doesn't mean it's of love but I see why you would think that it is. I guess I feel the spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith is just so much stronger than the that.

You 'feel' based on what?

and of course Cloud would be happy? Why wouldn't he be happy knowing that Tifa cared about him? Moreover why didn't Cloud know that in the first place, I think that's a problem. I think when I see that quote is that they have evolved in their relationship yeah. they can communicate better than they did in FFVII because things have changed. Becoming closer and resolving issues happens between friends all the time so I don't see the romance when itcomes to that. I see Cloud and Tifa as a great friendship so him saying he'll make enough noise for the both of them is him trying to cheer her up so that's where I stand on that?

It seems right now you seem to just be insisting it's friendship because you see it as such, simply discounting evidence that points their feelings both being romantic.

To Ryushikaze::

Oblivious of which intentions exactly?

Her romantic intentions towards him. Cloud is oblivious of the fact that both Aerith and Tifa are interested in him until he becomes aware of Tifa's feelings during the lifestream sequence.

I never saw the point where he was more//most open towards Tifa.

Even discounting the Lifestream sequence where she is literally allowed to walk around inside the very core essence of his being and he bares his soul to her, Cloud does a lot of things JUST because Tifa asks him to. Likewise, in the AC prologue book, his attitude in the movie is described as "Cloud's heart, which he first opened only to Tifa two years ago, has become closed, even to her" or words to that effect.

I saw him promising to be Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for nothing but her company, I saw him comforting her when she felt alone, I saw him saying he wanted to meet her at the end of the game and that their date scene is the most romantic.

Cloud- AND TIFA- express a desire to see Aerith when they are both facing their potential imminent death and the death of all humanity at the end of the game. Upon their survival, Cloud then proceeds to spend two years not looking for Aerith at all, and instead starting a family with Tifa. He only looks for Aerith when he feels he needs to be absolved of sins so he can save his adopted son from a fatal disease.

I also see the impact of Cloud's words after Aerith dies and his extreme longing towards her in Advent Children.

Cloud wasn't 'longing' for her, he was SEEKING FORGIVENESS AND A CURE. So he could RETURN HOME AND BE HAPPY.

I don't deny Cloud is happy with Tifa but I also feel like their relationship is strained at some points. I also find that Tifa is very insecure when it comes to Cloud and Aerith and even becomes jealous.

So, because Cloud and Tifa have tough spots, they can't be in a relationship, even though you said that would be normal for Cloud and Aerith to have fights and arguments.
Also, how was she insecure about them in AC/C? She thanked Aerith for being with them, and the 'memory' she was referring to was SEPHIROTH, not Aerith. There's a reason why the final 'jab' in that fight is 'I'll never be just a memory.'

Aerith was always confident about her feelings and her relationship so I think that's one thing that helped keep the CA relationship strong.

WHAT RELATIONSHIP? Cloud never knew she was INTERESTED in him! You can't have a relationship where one person doesn't know they're in it.

Cloud always seemed to be more confident in regards to Aerith the way I've seen it. I don't think Cloud is stupid enough to not understand it feels more reassuring to me than anything. And why mention himself individually instead of saying "we're all here for you" instead he stumbles and says "i" first.

Because he's trying to emphasize how not alone she is. "I, no, we are all here for you."
Also "more reassuring to me?" Careful you don't fall in the trap of the self insert, kid.

He did confirm the promise though because if he didn't then... he wouldn't have acted upon it lol.

Cloud protected Aerith, but at no point did he care about getting the payment. Faux Cloud can be a dick, but not that big of a dick, especially not after Tifa helped remind him of himself via his promise to her.

he also tells her at one point: "Im your bodyguard, right?". He is completely fine with that and with Aerith referring to him as that. And he wouldn't have had the option to date Aerith ever.

Yeah, he doesn't CARE about it. It's "yeah, I'm your bodyguard, big deal." Hell, even if the date happens, he doesn't want to go on it and doesn't seem all that interested. Hell, at least with Tifa he tries to talk with her.

He said Tifa's opinion mattered the most but didn't he say that when Tifa herself says "that's wrong" right afterwards?

Cloud
"That's why you shouldn't be so scared."
"No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that
counts..."

(He turns away. Tifa turns back towards him. She shakes her head.)

Tifa
"No, that's not true, Cloud......"

(He shakes his head sadly and turns to face Tifa.)

Cloud
"What's not? Aren't I the same Cloud you grew up with?"

That's the context of the 'No, that's not true.' She's not referring to her opinion not mattering most.
ALSO

After Cloud has lost faith in him being his real self:


Cloud
"Especially you, Tifa. I'm really sorry."
"You've been good to me...... I don't know what to say..."

(He shakes his head.)

Cloud
"I never lived up to being 'Cloud'."
"Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'."

Cloud's Lament was not living up to being himself.

I think Aerith can never have the bond Cloud and Tifa have in the way that she hasn't shared a past with Cloud and is still getting to know him but also Tifa can't reach Cloud the way Aerith has which is getting him to open up the way he did to her.

One of these two women has been allowed to LITERALLY WALK AROUND INSIDE HIS MIND. It's not Aerith.

I really don't think time frame matters when it comes to your heart. I know that sounds really corny but just because Cloud and Aerith knew one another for a short period of time it doesn't make their feelings matter less just because Tifa has known him longer. In a short period of time Aerith affected Cloud heavily, so much that he formed an extremely strong bond with her. He was sad losing her in his life, he still thought about her and felt guilt towards her, he wanted to meet her and protect her, more than I feel - anyone else.

Aerith did affect Cloud heavily, but likewise, Zack affected Cloud just as heavily and Aerith affected a lot of people equally heavily, including Tifa, Barret, Red, Vincent, Yuffie, even Marlene.

I listed some examples already but another one is before Aerith leaves and she appears to Cloud in his dream is one of the most romantic moments. She's playful and light hearted and Cloud chases after her in the end and right when he wakes up he wants to find her immediately.

So, because Cloud wants to find his friend knowing that an insane madman is following her, that's automatically romance? Cloud really just comes off as confused in that sequence, even with Aerith laying the flirt on heavily.

Aerith shows that she knows Cloud extremely well in that instance too. When he steps foot in the forgotten city he says he can sense Aerith's presence which is really strong to me.

He can also sense SEPHIROTH.

When Aerith dies Cloud says "what about us" and I feel he is referring to he and Aerith.

It makes little sense to refer to himself and Aerith instead of himself and the living. What are we, her friends, supposed to know that you've killed her? What about our pain? The dead have no pain.

Aerith also saw through to the real Cloud without being told anything about it. She just knew.

Yes, because she has special Cetra Powers. Tifa knew Cloud was off because she knew him well enough. And even knowing Cloud was not himself, Aerith didn't know 'the real' Cloud, just that he was there.

Marlene is also always very insistent that Cloud and Aerith should be together/have feelings for one another.

And Denzel thinks of Cloud and Tifa as his parents.

Thus far, all you've done is argue your feelings, that you FEEL scenes are romantic, and ignored quite the PILE of evidence I provided to demonstrate that C/T are a couple, they have a future together, belong together, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

You've also rather pointedly ignored that it's Tifa's LINE that's risque, and that the scene used to be EVEN MORE risque, not that it was made not risque at all.

You've ignored that Cloud and Tifa are said to have revealed mutual feelings to each other under the highwind, and feelings which are not of loneliness, but of romance.

In point of fact, let me repeat and bold the pile.
Cloud and Tifa confessed their mutual feelings for one another under the highwind. This confession was worth including on the 'For the One I love' page in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania, and the High Highwind scene was one of the four most notworthy scenes of the game, along with Aerith's death. Cloud and Tifa live together as a result of their confession, they formed a family together, they have a future together. Cloud thinks of Tifa as the mother of their family, and Tifa thinks of him as the father, and Denzel likewise thinks of them as his parents. One of Tifa's roles in the world is someone's beloved. Cloud is happy living with Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. These are his family. Cloud belongs with Tifa, and this was the first thing that Nojima cemented about the plot of Advent Children.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

To Amizon:
If there's one thing I disagree with most it's that Aerith still loves Zack. She wrote the guy a letter basically telling him that she's moving on now. It's sad what happened that she never knew Zack was trying get back to her and never knew how close to her he was at the end of the game but that's what makes it a tragic love story. It's also in the past and I feel like it stayed there. Unlike Aerith's death, Zack was never able to appear to Aerith or communicate with her. In the Maiden story, Aerith doesn't even know that he has passed and refers to him as a close friend. I think she did truly love him but by the time FFVII comes I feel she has moved on from those feelings and even Elmyra says that someone broke her heart years ago which is why she didn't trust Cloud very well at first. I think Aerith definitely noticed the similarities to Zack, but that is NOT the reason why she loves him or cares for him. It could have attracted her from the start but she definitely connects with and knows that Cloud is different otherwise they wouldn't have such a strong bond which continues to AC. And she never would have said she wants to meet the real Cloud if she didn't see through to him.

To Norg:
He never tried to ditch Aerith without a good reason. Elmyra had requested that Cloud leave without telling Aerith because she didn't want her daugter to be in danger, otherwise Cloud had the intention of escorting her. And just because he wants to find Tifa doesn't mean it's a bad thing he should want to find one of his closest friends O_O. Aerith comes along to help, even. Actually during the scene in the park Aerith is the one that jumps to saving Tifa right away and starts running off before Cloud does. (which is awesome to me because I love their friendship and I'm a huge Aerith x Tifa shipper lol) Those choices to be mean to Aerith are optional obviously and Tifa has some mean options at some points in the game too but I thought everyone here was aware of the dating mechanic??? Obviously being mean to either girl isn't canon. It's silly to believe Cloud ever hit Aerith on purpose without regretting it. :/
I always found Tifa to be a shy person when it comes to Cloud and her feelings anyway, so if they were cuddling together all night and fell asleep on one another and the others saw I still feel she would have been totally embarrassed. And really, these two don't act like a couple that's connected in such a way after the fact that "it happens" as you claim. So it's confusing, I just don't see how it's sex at all.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Aerith does still love Zack, and is trying to get over him.

And really, the creators said the Highwind scene is risque and that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings without using words. How can you not put two and two together?

Oh, and it's NORG, not Norg. The all caps is important, otherwise you'd be calling me the location from FFXI rather than the character from FFVIII. Though you don't have to call me NORG. You can also call me any of my AKA names. Most people know me as either Matt or Porky. But like I said, you can take your pick of what name to call me.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

To Ryushikaze::
True enough that Tifa is only human but she seemed to be just as clueless as Cloud even though nothing was affecting her memory. Why was that? I don't think that was ever explained. It just seems really important and it's understandable how Cloud forgot, but not understandable how Tifa did. I think that the guilt felt for Zack and for Aerith are very different. With Zack he actually got to hear his parting words and Cloud didn't feel he failed to save Zack which is how he felt about Aerith. He promised to be her body guard and he failed to do that leading to her death (which he thought was his fault). I think his guilt rests mostly with Aerith. When he speaks at Zack's grave he says "easy to make that promise" when he remembers he's supposed to be Zack's living legacy. I feel like Cloud feels he isn't the person that he was supposed to be and he hasn't lived up to what Zack left for him to carry. I feel like Cloud thinks he's failed Zack and he isn't worthy, but his guilt for Aerith is stronger because he let her die (in his words).
Nomura had once said this on the subject of Aerith in AC: "As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him." That is not said about Zack even once. He can't feel Zack's presence, and it's never said his consciousness lives on inside of him. Actually in Maiden it's explained Zack was only able to wake up because of Aerith. I don't think Zack has the power to appear before Cloud the way she does. Also at the end of FFVII he says he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land and before that moment he was reaching for her hand. In AC we see Cloud reach for her hand again and this time they make contact. It was said this pays homage to that even in FFVII and it's really powerful to me. There was also this quote in the Ultimania::
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world."

If Aerith is Tifa's love rival, obviously there are some heavy feelings there. IT seems between past and future. Even though Aerith is Tifa's friend, she still gets jealous of her and notices there is a special bond DIFFERENT from the one she has with Cloud which is what is said right there in the quote. It says her jealous feelings even carry to Advent Children where Cloud is constantly gone and staying in Aerith's church, not to mention he has Aerith's flowers on his desk. There's another quote that says this::
"When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them""
I see sometimes that cloti fans want to say Cloud smiles at both Aerith and Zack but he notices Aerith first, he watches her walking away and she is the MAIN FOCUS at the end. She even slow motion turns to Cloud, smiles, says it's alright, and then he voices that it's fine now. I think Zack and Cloud already had closure when Zack appeared to him during the Sephiroth fight and said "remember what I told you" but he hadn't received his closure with Aerith yet at that point. This was also another quote from the Ultimania
"The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---"

He awakes in the church, so that is his promised land. Like I said he notices Aerith first. I think it's something special that Cloud's promised land is with Aerith in her church. He wakes up where all of her flowers used to be too, now replaced with her holy water.

To norg:
I don't believe Aerith still loves Zack and I'll tell you exactly why that is!
"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.
But Cloud is clueless."
From Dismantled

"Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. "
From Ultimania (omega)

"When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself."
Also from the same place

"So you won't have a breakdown..." - Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud"
Again from the same place

"I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a breakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. "
you guessed it! from the same place!

Aerith says this on their date:
Aerith: First off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture... I think I must have seen him again, in you... But you're different. Things are different..."

"Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him."
Ultimania Anniversary

"Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him."
From Omega, once again

When Aerith speaks of Zack it's not really important to her.
Cloud: "You were...serious?"
Aerith: "No. But I liked him for awhile."
Cloud: "I probably knew him. What was his name?"
Aerith: "It doesn't really matter.”

And when you visit Gongaga?
Aerith: "What a shock.... I didn't know Zack was from this town."
Cloud: "You know him?"
Aerith: "Didn't I tell you? He was my first love."
Cloud: "......"
Aerith: "Zack.... SOLDIER First Class. Same as Cloud."
Cloud: "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him."
Aerith: "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing."
Cloud: "Missing?"
Aerith: "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back." "He loved women, a real lady’s man. He probably found someone else.”

She said it's all in the past now.