The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Bujurururu! SHE-SAYS-IT'S-IN-THE-PAST-BECAUSE-SHE'S-IN-DENIAL-ABOUT-HOW-SERIOUS-THEY-WERE. AND-IT'S-NORG-DAMMIT, NOT-norg! THAT'S-EVEN-WORSE-THAN-Norg! Bujururu!

 

[Junko Enoshima]

When is it implied she is in denial...?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think she was certainly working her way to convincing herself that she was over it all, but I wouldn't call it denial necessarily. It's definitely been clarified that she legitimately fell in love with Cloud.

All right, first of all, the I'm we're here for you scene is not inherently romantic, as the FFVIII Plot Analysis written by Squall of Seed(who happens to be the guy you were just talking to) that I poasted a link to in my previous poast will tell you.

Aaaactually, what I said before was that the line doesn't rise to the level of a discussion officially beginning a romantic relationship. I do, however, think that the line is a classic example of a character backing up when they realize they've revealed too much.

So, yeah, I think it's a romantic line.

 

[Splintered]

To Splintered::

Really? I always felt like Tifa and Cloud always had a failure to communicate, which is why they had such tension about the past in the first place.

It is hard for them to communicate, as I mentioned, it's probably the hardest thing for them to do. Which is why it shows the strength of their bond when they do, because they defy the odds and their insecurities and connect. Like I said before, their story is not a story about how they failed to communicate, it was how they overcomed their failure.

It would be like saying Cloud is a story of a failure, or a man who reveled in guilt for all his life. But the point of the story is that he pushed through his guilt, surpassed his failure, and became a man that saved to world and the people close to him. That's the point of the story.

Nothing for Cloud comes easy. Hell nothing comes easy for Tifa. But easy isn't the what makes it worth it.

When Advent Children comes along Cloud is off doing his own thing and running from his problems regardless of his reasons I feel like if Aerith were there he never would have run away from any problem and he definitely wouldn't have ignored her the way he seemed to ignore Tifa and everyone else.

I disagree, I think they would have handled it differently. But the point was Cloud was pushing everyone away, regardless of who they are. Not because they occupy different points in their hearts, but because he's scared of failing and hurting others. Cloud running away wasn't on the condition of someone, it was his own fear.

Cloud has been described as happy with his family by Word of God. And I think a huge part of that is Tifa, who was a woman who was able to try and draw him closer, but balance that with giving his own freedom and encouraging things like starting his own business and fixing Fenrir. She was patience and encouraging, but at the same time wanted to keep the family close.

I think Cloud and Aerith would have their share of fights if they were ever in a relationship, but how I see it Cloud was able to communicate with Aerith easily even though he'd known Tifa for years he still had trouble speaking to her about his feelings while Cloud and Aerith just clicked.

I do think Cloud and Aerith had a chemistry together, but I also think Cloud and Tifa have a bond that Cloud can't share with Aerith. Cloud has problems communicating with everyone, and that isn't something that always fixed by one person.

In fact, while Cloud was at ease with Aerith, I dunno but in the original game I felt that Tifa and Cloud communicated when it really counted, not just light conversation but on the things that anyone would be scared to talk about. Cloud and Aerith joked around a lot, but Cloud and Tifa discussed things like who they were, the deep seated fears, their childhood dreams, their consistent failures, their shortcomings.

It's why that almost every big Cloti moment in the og... has underlying themes of communication. In the promise scene, Cloud and Tifa finally talk for the first time and hint at their underlying promises. In the lifestream scene they discuss basically who they are as people. And the highwind scene they "communicate their feelings without words."

Now that you mention other pairings I feel like Cloud and Tifa were a past relationship the same way Zack and Aerith were a past relationship.

Except Tifa and Cloud are absolutely not in the past. In fact, they are each others present and will be together in the future. Someone get me that quote that said that Cloud and Tifa will always have issues, but always overcome and stay with each other. They have a family, their relationship is always evolving.

and of course Cloud would be happy? Why wouldn't he be happy knowing that Tifa cared about him?

He's happy because the relationship between him Tifa, Cloud, and the kids, are fulfilling. He loves being with them.

Moreover why didn't Cloud know that in the first place, I think that's a problem.

Cloud's a really confused man who barely is able to comprehend his own issues without outside help?

Becoming closer and resolving issues happens between friends all the time so I don't see the romance when itcomes to that.

Friends that are meant to start a life together, who has always been under the heavy hand of romantic subtext, who manage to convey feelings without words, who's themes also stem from promises and starlight nights.

Oh one last thing

He awakes in the church, so that is his promised land

Then his promised land has officially been shown with both Aerith and Zack's symbolism in it, which I suppose you can ot3. But the text is incredibly important, Cloud doesn't just awake "in the church" he wakes up to the sounds of happy children and his family and friends around him. And the first thing he does is take Denzel in his arms and cure him. The Church became a place of healing for the people he loved. Surrounded by the people he cared about.

It's not until Cloud, looking incredibly happy with the people around him, does he notice Zack and Aerith which according to the script (I think) "return to where they came from."

The promise with the Promise Land being of pure romantic implication is that his ordeal WASNT romantic. AC/C is not about romantic love, it was about Cloud running away from his present to wallow in his past. This is why there were constant talks about memories. It's why it takes everyone, not just one person, to pull him out of his funk. It makes no sense that the theme of Advent Children would be "get over your guilt, live happily with the people that surround you" and the resolution romance. That was kind of not the point?

 

[BlankBeat]

And the HA Highwind scene is an obvious sex scene since it has Tifa saying a risque line, followed by a fade to black after which we see Cloud and Tifa cuddled next to each other, and then on board the airship Tifa says "Were you watching?" and promptly faints while Cloud scratches the back of his head nervously, and then when he talks to Yuffie she notices he's happier than usual. This is how they used to handle sex scenes in the old days of film. It's rather cliche, really.

Even if the HAHW scene occurs, Nomura has no idea if Cloud and Tifa develop a romantic relationship after the game ends. This means that EVEN IF the HAHW scene occurs, a romantic relationship does not necessarily develop from it.

If Nomura has no idea if a romantic relationship develops after the game ends, this means the HAHW scene does not make Cloud and Tifa canon.

Therefore, the HAHW scene can occur, and a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa does not necessarily develop from it according to Nomura.

Furthermore, AC shows ZERO romantic moments between the supposedly "canon" couple. If the HAHW scene supposedly means Cloud and Tifa are canon, AC would have shown them romantically involved. And don't give me this BS about AC not being a romantic movie so that's why it had no romantic moments. Plenty of non-romantic movies have romantic aspects or moments. You don't have to be a romantic movie to show romantic moments.

So the bottom line is: Nomura has no idea if a romantic relationship develops between Cloud and Tifa after the game ends, which makes the HAHW scene completely irrelevant. Furthermore, none of the material after FFVII contradict Nomura's statement. Until he says his previous statement is outdated or incorrect, or until he says something contrary to his old quote, or until SE shows us something contrary, there is zero evidence that Cloud and Tifa are a couple EVEN IF the HAHW scene occurs.

To me, SE has shown us that Cloud still desires to be with Aerith because of his guilt that is fueled by his feelings of romance. These feelings of romance are clearly established throughout the game, in AC, the cameo appearances, and official quotes by SE. Thankfully, Cloud and Aerith share a spiritual connection and will one day be reunited with each other.

If you want some answers about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as it relates to FFVII, just look to the ending of Kingdom Hearts for some answers (Nomura, FFVII creator).


::patiently waits for the character assassination and attempted discrediting of Nomura::

 

[Unlucky]

Even if the HAHW scene occurs, Nomura has no idea if Cloud and Tifa develop a romantic relationship after the game ends. This means that EVEN IF the HAHW scene occurs, a romantic relationship does not necessarily develop from it.

If Nomura has no idea if a romantic relationship develops after the game ends, this means the HAHW scene does not make Cloud and Tifa canon.

Therefore, the HAHW scene can occur, and a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa does not necessarily develop from it according to Nomura.

Furthermore, AC shows ZERO romantic moments between the supposedly "canon" couple. If the HAHW scene supposedly means Cloud and Tifa are canon, AC would have shown them romantically involved. And don't give me this BS about AC not being a romantic movie so that's why it had no romantic moments. Plenty of non-romantic movies have romantic aspects or moments. You don't have to be a romantic movie to show romantic moments.

So the bottom line is: Nomura has no idea if a romantic relationship develops between Cloud and Tifa after the game ends, which makes the HAHW scene completely irrelevant. Furthermore, none of the material after FFVII contradict Nomura's statement. Until he says his previous statement is outdated or incorrect, or until he says something contrary to his old quote, or until SE shows us something contrary, there is zero evidence that Cloud and Tifa are a couple EVEN IF the HAHW scene occurs.

To me, SE has shown us that Cloud still desires to be with Aerith because of his guilt that is fueled by his feelings of romance. These feelings of romance are clearly established throughout the game, in AC, the cameo appearances, and official quotes by SE.

If you want some answers about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as it relates to FFVII, just look to the ending of Kingdom Hearts for some answers (Nomura, FFVII creator).

You have an answer to Quex's question yet?

 

[BlankBeat]

You have an answer to Quex's question yet?

Trying to harass me into answering an irrelevant question seems to be your obsession. Sadly, I'm not surprised to see that you responded to me within only a few seconds of my last post.

Yes, Denzel and Marlene don't have obvious 'sins'. And in the quote Tifa says the family of friends she formed included companions with the same wounds and sins as her.

But the overall point is that Tifa refers to friends as family. She believes that friends have the ability to form families together. So although we can't be completely sure who she is referring to with this quote, the big-picture point is that she agrees that friends can form families together.
Why can't this extend to her and Cloud?
Does the quote necessarily exclude anyone without a sin, or is it simply saying that many of these friends shared the same sins?

When you combine this with the quote where Tifa says the family she formed with Cloud isn't a "real" family, maybe that's because it's a family of friends? Maybe it's because Denzel is not related to either of them and was brought to Cloud by Aerith? Maybe it's because Marlene is Barret's daughter? Maybe it's because Barret is also apart of this family?

The point is that she believes friends can form families together. She also says the family she formed with Cloud isn't a 'real' family. None of this implies a romantic relationship, especially when you consider there was no wedding, no pregnancy, and no intimate moments shared. In fact, the only time SE refers to a wedding is when they refer to Cait Sith's prediction about Cloud and Aerith being a perfect match. Odd they would refer to Cait Sith's prediction as a wedding prediction if they didn't believe Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved and had the mutual attraction required for a marriage. It seems obvious SE included Cait Sith's prediction (among other things) so the gamer would view them as a romantic couple.

Anyway, not to be sidetracked -- given how SE shows Cloud and Tifa interacting in AC, and all of the quotes I list below, there is no evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship:

“Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he [Barret] rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions.”

”Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.” ~Tifa; Case of Tifa

Tifa: “I guess that only works for real families…” ~Advent Children/Complete

Cloud: “I want to drink alone.”
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.” ~Case of Tifa
(There is also a screenshot of a bed in Cloud’s separate room. Why would SE specify that Cloud has his own room, show a bed in Cloud’s separate room, and then NEVER shown Tifa and Cloud together intimately?)

--------

And again, even if the HAHW scene is romantic and/or canon, there is no proof that a romantic *relationship* develops from it because Nomura says he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the game ends. Plus, AC shows zero romantic scenes between Cloud & Tifa. So even if the HAHW scene occurs, that scene is not evidence enough for Nomura that a romantic relationship develops between Cloud and Tifa. Furthermore, AC shows nothing that confirms a romantic relationship developed from the HAHW scene. These two things (Nomura & Advent Children) mean that the variable and optional HAHW scene proves N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

To Splintered::
I would say Cloud and Tifa over came some of their... I wouldn't call them failures but issues I guess but I think they're still in the process of building a strong foundation together just as friends which is why I don't see them as compatible. I think two very reserved people with a hard time comunicating their feelings, isn't a good match. That's one of the reasons why I think Aerith is perfect for Cloud because she is the opposite of someone who hides her feelings and struggles with being fowards. I just think that they end up clashing personality wise that's all.
I think Cloud and Tifa related in those feelings but I feel like Cloud found a comfort in Aerith to not HAVE to talk about those things with her. With her light hearted and cheerful spirit he was able to be happier as well (not saying Tifa makes him miserable just that it was probably refreshing for someone with a personality as hers to comfort him). And Aerith had her moments where she expresses her loneliness and right away Cloud reassures her. Aerith has had a pretty rough life too but she doesn't let it affect her often and I think her confidence sparked some confidence in Cloud as well. Cloud and Aerith also talked about themselves to one another of course she didn't get the past history that Tifa did but they still connected on a very personal level.
I know Cloud and Tifa aren't in the past I'm just saying that their feelings ARE. What they had in the past was a crush from their child hood. While Tifa stuck to her feelings, there is no saying that Cloud did or didn't... however guess by how he acted when he first meets Aerith and how Tifa sees Aerith as a love rival, it appears that his feelings have changed since then. Cloud has grown up and changed a lot (so has Tifa and Aerith for that matter) and I really get the feelings of Aerith and Cloud moving on together from their past loves.
Cloud and Tifa aren't the only one with promises, or the only ones with relation to the starts. Cloud and Aerith also made a promise - two actually, and Cait Sith had given a cute little prediction about their stars being the perfect match. And I think two friends can start a life together but that's just me I guess. I recall Case of Tifa, Tifa was jealous even then whe she discovered Cloud was going to the forgotten city because of Aerith. And then in Advent Children she says "Which is it, a memory or us?" It just seems she has a lot of insecurities about their relationship ones that aren't healthy for a solid relationship.

How is the church tied to Zack in any way when it was where Aerith had spent most of her time? And those were Aerith's flowers and her holy water, not Zack's... and in the text it says it's a place tied to Aerith. He was surrounded by the people he loved yes, but the Church was a heavy connection to Aerith right from the start, before any of his friends arrive. Just because a bunch of his friends gather where Aerith resides doesn't suddenly erase the fact that it is tied to her majorly and most of all.

I agree with what BlankBeat said of course, lol! Those thoughts all reflect my own.

 

[null]

Honestly, I don't care who loves whom.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Trying to harass me into answering an irrelevant question seems to be your obsession.

And if it was actually irrelevant, this reply might mean something. It isn't, so I for one am going to just assume you don't have an answer. Well, no answer except the true one what would be damning to one of your favorite "points" to harp on about. Is it really that hard to just admit that Marlene doesn't have any sins to speak of, and thus your whole "family of friends" argument is what's really irrelevant?

Sadly, I'm not surprised to see that you responded to me within only a few seconds of my last post.

Sorry, would you prefer that everyone wait a week or so before reminding you that you still haven't answered this one simple question? Fluff up some pillows and make ya a nice cuppa so you can relax while you wait to hear again the same question you've been ignoring for so very long already? Seems a bit daft, that

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Bujurururu! DO-YOU-KNOW-HOW-FUCKING-OLD-THAT-NOMURA-QUOTE-IS?! AND-YOU-DO-KNOW-NOMURA-IS-INFAMOUS-FOR-LYING-TO-AVOID-SPOILING-FUTURE-PRODUCTS, RIGHT?

 

[Unlucky]

Trying to harass me into answering an irrelevant question seems to be your obsession.

And trying to avoid this question seems to be yours. Admit it, you had no plans to answer this question if it weren't for you being called out over and over again on this one. You thought you could get away, huh?

Sadly, I'm not surprised to see that you responded to me within only a few seconds of my last post.

So?

You try hard to sound formal and whatnot when you're the one being rude and dishonest here. You deliberately and REPEATEDLY ignored this question many times. You could've at least said you'll get back to it. You're simply pretending it doesn't exist and hoping that it wouldn't be brought up again.

And you complain about people 'harassing' you or being snarky to you in this debate like you've done nothing.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

What was the question? O_O

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, Denzel and Marlene don't have obvious 'sins'. And in the quote Tifa says the family of friends she formed included companions with the same wounds and sins as her.

...

Does the quote necessarily exclude anyone without a sin, or is it simply saying that many of these friends shared the same sins?

It would be a rather pointless point of reference to describe them then if it didn't apply to all of them.

But the overall point is that Tifa refers to friends as family. She believes that friends have the ability to form families together.

"Friends have the ability to form families together." Isn't that the way most families are formed? In the absence of arranged marriage, spouses start off as friends, and -- despite the lack of a genetic relationship -- no one would ever argue that they aren't family.

When you combine this with the quote where Tifa says the family she formed with Cloud isn't a "real" family, maybe that's because it's a family of friends?

She later expresses that she felt they became a real family after Denzel arrived. She also becomes comfortable with the notion that they are a normal family -- which says a lot on its own.

The "I guess that only works for real families" thing in AC/C is her beginning to let loose her frustration on Cloud in regard to his self-destructive behavior, which is also hurting her and the kids. She's expressing how she feels he must view the family, not how she does.

And, of course, Cloud doesn't view them that way at all. He calls them "my family" just a few lines later. The 10th Anniversary Ultimania calls them his family (at the exclusion of Barret).

As usual, you're harping on a point you know to be false.

Maybe it's because Denzel is not related to either of them and was brought to Cloud by Aerith? Maybe it's because Marlene is Barret's daughter? Maybe it's because Barret is also apart of this family?

Correct. Barret is apart of the family. He is, however, not a part of it like Cloud, Denzel, Marlene and Tifa are described. Again, Barret is always excluded from descriptions of Cloud's family, even when the names of those included are broken down one by one.

Odd they would refer to Cait Sith's prediction as a wedding prediction if they didn't believe Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved and had the mutual attraction required for a marriage.

Bullcrap. They weren't romantically involved. That's a fact whether you believe they had feelings for each other or not. They never had a romantic relationship, with or without mutual feelings. She died before anything could even happen. So, yeah, bullcrap.

"A love that can never be" indeed.

And again, even if the HAHW scene is romantic and/or canon, there is no proof that a romantic *relationship* develops from it because Nomura says he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the game ends.

You can say this no matter how many times you want, and it won't change that Nomura said he doesn't care, not that he doesn't know. He does know. He's said that Advent Children clearly presents the relationship between them. He has also said that one of Tifa's roles in the movie is that of a koibito.

Even if you don't believe that she is Cloud's koibito (which would then make bringing up the matter irrelevant to the movie where she has basically no interaction with any other dude -- aside from a couple of lines with Reno, I think), the fact that Nomura says she is koibito to someone means he knows what her romantic life is like.


You can come here to repeat the same lies as many times as you want. You will never stop being called out on them.

What was the question? O_O

The argument was that Tifa saw the family at Seventh Heaven as "a family of friends" (i.e. an assemblage without a romantic element) because of a passage in Case of Tifa where it says something to the effect that "with friends to call family, there was nothing she couldn't handle."

This argument ignores that Tifa has this thought before Denzel arrives, after which point she says that this is when she felt that she and Cloud became a real family. This argument also ignores that, after that, Tifa settles comfortably into the idea that they are a normal family just like any other.

The argument further ignores that the so-called "family of friends" is described as people who bear the same sins as herself.

Quexinos asked BlankBeat (and others) many times how that "family of friends" is the Seventh Heaven family rather than AVALANCHE when half of the Seventh Heaven family (Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene) have no such sins.

Basically, the question was, "What were Marlene's (and Denzel's) sins?" This question went ignored for a very long time, and has now gotten the b.s. response you see above.

 

[BlankBeat]

Bujurururu! DO-YOU-KNOW-HOW-FUCKING-OLD-THAT-NOMURA-QUOTE-IS?! AND-YOU-DO-KNOW-NOMURA-IS-INFAMOUS-FOR-LYING-TO-AVOID-SPOILING-FUTURE-PRODUCTS, RIGHT?

It doesn't matter how old his quote is. Nothing in Advent Children contradicts his quote. None of his new quotes contradict his old quote. Absolutely nothing SE has shown us contradict his quote. Trying to discredit his quote simply because it's "old" is a weak attempt to try and dismiss evidence that completely nukes Cloti.

But I'm glad to see the character assassination of Nomura is alive and well among Cloti's. Trying to discredit one of FFVII's creators is ridiculous, but a lot of his quotes nuke the idea that Clot is canon so I guess it's to be expected.

Trying to downplay or explain away Nomura's statements doesn't get rid of them. His statements exist whether you want them to or not, and his statements destroy the idea of C/T and build up C/A. So I'm not surprised Cloti's would try to pretend Nomura's statements mean nothing simply because it was said several years ago. Until SE says or shows us something that contradicts his old quote, it still stands. And the simple fact is, Nomura has NO IDEA if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the game ends. This means that even if the HAHW scene occurs, there is no proof that a romantic *relationship* develops from it because Nomura says he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the game ends. This means that even if the HAHW scene happens, Nomura STILL has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.

And since AC shows zero romantic scenes between Cloud and Tifa, nothing contradicts his old statement. In addition, he has NEVER said his old statement is incorrect, nor has he said anything that contradicts his old statement.

These two things (Nomura & Advent Children) mean that the variable and optional HAHW scene proves N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Nomura also says the ending of Kingdom Hearts answers questions about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. So although the Kingdom Heart's universe is different than the FFVII universe, Nomura says the ending of Kingdom Hearts provides answers to the type of relationship Cloud and Aerith have in FFVII (ie: a ROMANTIC relationship). The ending of Kingdom Hearts matches the in-game Clerith moments, SE's official quotes, cameo appearances, and what is shown in AC. To be honest, the hand reach scene is the most romantic scene ever shown between Cloud and either Aerith or Tifa.

PS: I already provided my explanation for Marlene not having any sins. If you don't accept my explanation, that's fine. But when you combine it with her quote where she says her and Cloud aren't a "real" family, in addition to all the other quotes I listed, it's not hard to see that Cloud and Tifa are NOT in a romantic relationship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It doesn't matter how old his quote is. Nothing in Advent Children contradicts his quote. None of his new quotes contradict his old quote.

Except the ones that have been repeatedly mentioned where he talks about the nature of their relationship being clear in the movie, and the other where he shows knowledge about Tifa's romantic life.

Other than those, yeah, nothing he has said contradicts the mistaken claim that he said he doesn't know what their relationship is like.

But I'm glad to see the character assassination of Nomura is alive and well among Cloti's. Trying to discredit one of FFVII's creators is ridiculous ...

In fairness, he has said things about upcoming projects that proved to be absolutely wrong, and on more than one occasion. Apparently, this just isn't one of those times; this is Nomura being misquoted.

Nomura also says the ending of Kingdom Hearts answers questions about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. So although the Kingdom Heart's universe is different than the FFVII universe, Nomura says the ending of Kingdom Hearts provides answers to the type of relationship Cloud and Aerith have in FFVII (ie: a ROMANTIC relationship).

And there's another example of misquoting him. He didn't say diddly dick about the "type" of relationship they had (the word you chose to underscore here), nor did he say anything about romance. You're literally just making shit up now.

To be honest, the hand reach scene is the most romantic scene ever shown between Cloud and either Aerith or Tifa.

Really now? That sounds like an objective, verifiable statement to you?

 

[Junko Enoshima]

well I agree where you say it's not just a family of friends wih cloud, denzel, marlene, and barret. I think Tifa considers them to be her real family while her friends (The ones that don't live with her) are her 'family of friends'. Where we disagree of course is that it has romance involved. I feel like she has just adopted Denzel and Marlene as her own and she loves and cares for Cloud and Barret is the father who left Marlene in their care so - it feels like a *real* family to her. When she says "I guess that only works for real families" she's upset but she's showing that she does consider them a family so when Cloud is distancing himself she breaks down. that's just my view on it though!

I do find it odd now that BlankBeat brings it up, that many in here believe that Cloud and Tifa had sex and shared a romantic night during the highwind part but Nomura says he's not sure what their relationship is. He never once says "this shows the meaning behind Cloud and Tifa's relationship" unlike what he says for Cloud and Aerith which is "This ending can answer some questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship". I found Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC to be mirrored in Kingdom Hearts. Cloud doesn't feel worthy, Cloud is always running off to do something, Cloud isn't accepting Tifa's help... Meanwhile Tifa is trying to reach out to him, make contact with him, etc. When it comes to Aerith in the first KH, they end up reuniting in the end. In the second game they end up speaking and Cloud says he will return to her. "No matter how far away I go I'll come back" He never says this to Tifa in fact I can't even remember if he says anything at all towards her.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I do find it odd now that BlankBeat brings it up, that many in here believe that Cloud and Tifa had sex and shared a romantic night during the highwind part but Nomura says he's not sure what their relationship is. He never once says "this shows the meaning behind Cloud and Tifa's relationship" unlike what he says for Cloud and Aerith which is "This ending can answer some questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship".

::headdesk::

 

[null]

To recap:

Nomura says you can think whatever you want about the two years before AC == nuking Cloti

Nomura says you can think whatever you want about the ending of Kingdom Hearts == confirming a ROMANTIC relationship

Calling a Nomura quote old == character assassination

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Bujururu! NOMURA-DID-NOT-SAY-HE-DOESN'T-KNOW-THE-NATURE-OF-THEIR-RELATIONSHIP, HE-SAID-HE-DOESN'T-CARE! AND-THE-QUOTES-THAT-CONFIRMED-CLOUD-AND-TIFA-HAD-SEX-CAME-LONG-AFTER-NOMURA-MADE-THAT-QUOTE!

Bushurururu...NOW-I-UNDERSTAND. IGNORANT-CLERITHS-ARE-TRYING-TO-TAKE-CANON-
AWAY-FROM-ME. YOU'RE-ONE-OF-MATERIA-JESUS'S-FOLLOWERS-AREN'T-YOU!? PREPARE-TO-DIE!

BLUE-YELLOW-RED. LOTS-OF-LOGIC-WHEN-RED! AS-LONG-AS-COLOR-STAYS, I-WILL-
ATTACK-CLERITHS-WITH-LOGIC! Bujurururu...

 

[Unlucky]

PS: I already provided my explanation for Marlene not having any sins. If you don't accept my explanation, that's fine. But when you combine it with her quote where she says her and Cloud aren't a "real" family, in addition to all the other quotes I listed, it's not hard to see that Cloud and Tifa are NOT in a romantic relationship.

"Marlene doesn't have sins but no they're still not a real family!!1! beacause:

~quotes~quotes~quotes~"

That's basically all you've been saying. But that's not surprising, is it. You have this ultimate conclusion that Cloud and Tifa are not in a romantic relationship and you twist details to arrive at that.

What I find disagreeable is your attitude in this debate. Like I said, you ignored this question for how long until you were "harassed" (lol) to answer it. And you even say it's an irrelevant question when it directly challenges your point.

You're an unfair debater. People here have been addressing your points and you've shown that you comfortably ignore theirs because it's "irrelevant".

 

[BlankBeat]

Nomura says you can think whatever you want about the two years before AC == nuking Cloti

Nomura said he hasn't a clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the game ends. Therefore, a romantic relationship does not necessarily develop from the HAHW scene. If Nomura doesn't know, fans shouldn't pretend they know either.

Furthermore, nothing in AC contradicts his quote. No romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa in AC. In fact, Cloud visited Aerith's Church before his diagnosis and is even seen living there. His guilt is strong because of the romantic connection they developed in Final Fantasy VII. This romantic connection is confirmed by numerous statements SE has made, especially when they called Cloud Aerith's koibito.

Nomura says you can think whatever you want about the ending of Kingdom Hearts == confirming a ROMANTIC relationship

"There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered." ~Nomura

Nomura specifically says the ending of Kingdom Hearts might answer questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship, "IN FINAL FANTASY VII".

The ending of Kingdom Hearts shows romantic couples coming together, including Cloud and Aerith.

If you can't take Nomura's quote and apply it honestly to the ending of Kingdom Hearts, you are simply being dishonest.

Calling a Nomura quote old == character assassination

The year in which he said his quote is completely and utterly irrelevant because nothing since his quote contradicts it.

Making a big deal about the year in which Nomura said his quote is simply trying to discredit him and direct attention away from the content of his quote.

 

[Dashell]

The argument was that Tifa saw the family at Seventh Heaven as "a family of friends" (i.e. an assemblage without a romantic element) because of a passage in Case of Tifa where it says something to the effect that "with friends to call family, there was nothing she couldn't handle."

This argument ignores that Tifa has this thought before Denzel arrives, after which point she says that this is when she felt that she and Cloud became a real family. This argument also ignores that, after that, Tifa settles comfortably into the idea that they are a normal family just like any other.

The argument further ignores that the so-called "family of friends" is described as people who bear the same sins as herself.

Quexinos asked BlankBeat (and others) many times how that "family of friends" is the Seventh Heaven family rather than AVALANCHE when half of the Seventh Heaven family (Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene) have no such sins.

Basically, the question was, "What were Marlene's (and Denzel's) sins?" This question went ignored for a very long time, and has now gotten the b.s. response you see above.

Quoted for emphasis.. I get so tired of hearing about this "Family of friends" that is Marlene, Denzel Cloud and Tifa when I can't even get answered a simple question.

Are they a family of friends or not? Yes or no?.. apparently no... so please don't use that argument anymore

 

[Junko Enoshima]

I was just saying... that's how I feel about it. I think we can all infer what we want to, but I think it's interesting he specifically points out this ending could be an answer to some of the questions surrounding Cloud and Aerith which can be taken romantically. /:

NOW-I-UNDERSTAND. IGNORANT-CLERITHS-ARE-TRYING-TO-TAKE-CANON-
AWAY-FROM-ME. YOU'RE-ONE-OF-MATERIA-JESUS'S-FOLLOWERS-AREN'T-YOU!? PREPARE-TO-DIE!

What the fuck

Lol BlankBeat I guess Cloud and Aerith coming together at the end is just a coincidence and is supposed to show their friendship even though we were all aware that Cloud and Aerith were already friends. I wonder what Nomura could have meant obviously he means Cloud secretly loves Tifa when he reunites with Aerith~ apparently.

 

[Dashell]

I was just saying... that's how I feel about it. I think we can all infer what we want to, but I think it's interesting he specifically points out this ending could be an answer to some of the questions surrounding Cloud and Aerith which can be taken romantically. /:

True it could... but he also said that Advent Children profoundly grasps the truth on Cloud and Tifa's relationship and THAT can be taken romantically


BTW:

"When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them""

Nope, that quote doesn't actually exist

The year in which he said his quote is completely and utterly irrelevant because nothing since his quote contradicts it.

Him saying that AC profoundly grasps the truth of their relationship doesn't contradict him saying he doesn't know?... how is that?