The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Tina Armstrong]

You haven't played Dissidia Duodecim?
she doesn't know Cloud or Sephiroth

I know, I know!
I just realized I misunderstood your post a little. Derrrrrrrrrrrppppppppp

 

[Tennyo]

Aww, it's okay, Red Gloves. <3

I'm sorry, I also thought this wouldn't be okay, but I (hell!) can't find the 'edit' button.
...Someone could tell me...?

I think you'll need to make more posts before that option becomes available. In the mean time, click the multi quote button (the button with the quotation marks) on each post you wish to respond to, then click the "New Post" button.

Or, open the field for a new post in a different tab/window and copy/paste.

 

[Dashell]

wait why do people's posts need to be approved? IT's Anastar and lady Lifestream, we know them, why are they on a mod queue?

 

[Vendel]

I can remember back when Aerith was the only one shown in KH1 and Nomura said that he'd put the scene in to show the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII. SE put that scene of Cloud meeting up with Aerith at the end of KH1 following scenes of Jasmine meeting up with Aladdin, Beauty meeting up with Beast, and other romantic partners meeting up. Clerith's were jumping all over the place saying that Clerith
had been confirmed.

I swear people who talk about the KH credits have never actually watched them.

Jasmine and Aladdin are the only couple that reunites. And they manage a kiss. Beauty doesn't meet up with Beast. And if you think they other scenes are romantic..................

(unless you are into some hot duck on broom action)

And if those credits answered anything about C/A's relationship it's that they don't have one.

 

[Tennyo]

wait why do people's posts need to be approved? IT's Anastar and lady Lifestream, we know them, why are they on a mod queue?

The forum software views them as new, and Lady Lifesteram was double posting a lot. The software could have seen her as a bot since she's still technically "new."

 

[Fighter]

Oh, wow. Kingdom Hearts. We've come full circle.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Wait. That isn't true. It was clearly said that "if Tifas affection rating is low, then the conversation ends apathetic and quick." So not just her confidence is low, but her affection.

"Affection rating" is a game mechanic, it doesn't literally mean affection. It would be like saying Aerith loves Cloud less if her affection rating is low enough that you get Tifa instead on the date. So it isn't her actual love for Cloud that changes, it's her confidence to tell him how she feels based on his actions throughout the game.

 

[Fighter]

So where is the coca-cola and fish?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

This is just a thought. But it seems like SE loves to twist around the story of Cloud, Tifa and Aerith in not just the OG.

Dissidia - Cloud walks into a flowerbed, similar to Aerith's. You get the hint that he wanted to see her. Later, in Duodecim, you realize that it was Tifa he was thinking about.
KH - We get a hint that Cloud found his light when he reunited with Aerith. This is not the case, since Tifa becomes Cloud's light in KH2.

....I'm just rambling.

 

[Tennyo]

"Affection rating" is a game mechanic, it doesn't literally mean affection. It would be like saying Aerith loves Cloud less if her affection rating is low enough that you get Tifa instead on the date. So it isn't her actual love for Cloud that changes, it's her confidence to tell him how she feels based on his actions throughout the game.

This is a very good way of thinking of it. I've never thought of that before.

 

[Splintered]

I like to think of it as

"Hey, how can we support replayability?"

 

[Celes Chere]

Ahh, I'm sorry, it wasn't me who decided this...

Girl, I will fight for the Zerith name.

And nevertheless, it was also called a "destined encounter".

Not because they are a couple, though. It's a destined encounter because from then on, the plot unravels. Zack and Aerith are called destiny in the sense that they are destined to be together.

so why wouldn't they live in the same house?

I'm just saying why would the quote say "They shared mutual feelings AND live together" if the mutual feelings were not positive ones? Besides, in Case of Tifa Cloud states that everything will be better with Tifa by his side. It doesn't seem like the low affection scene makes much sense with the rest of the story... yes, friends can live together. But if Cloud was not affectionate towards Tifa it'd be hurtful for her to be living with him. You don't just go up to your friend and say the things that Cloud says towards Tifa. You also don't blush in front of your friends when you say something that hints towards romance. Cloud would not act shy, would not raise a family, and would not say many things to Tifa (and also be so devoted totheir promise) if he did not love her. If you think this is friendship, then your expectations for love must be extremely high. xD

So where is the coca-cola

That's a handful of pages back, actually....

 

[Anastar]

Vendel

I swear people who talk about the KH credits have never actually watched them.

Jasmine and Aladdin are the only couple that reunites. And they manage a kiss. Beauty doesn't meet up with Beast. And if you think they other scenes are romantic..................

I wasn't talking about the credits. I was talking about Beast finding Beauty and reuniting with her during the game.

And if those credits answered anything about C/A's relationship it's that they don't have one.

Then how come Nomura said it answered questions about their relationship in FFVII?

Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players.~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140
Scan of that quote: http://clerith.heliohost.org/NomuraKHQuote2.gif


So if you don't think that any questions were answered, you'll have to take it up with Nomura. He seems to think that questions were answered.


Ryushikaze

Anastar, or any other Clerith, the next time your post is put into the mod queue, please notify an active mod. We see your posts regardless, and it's easy to miss the 'this is a moderated message' emblem.

Thank you, I will. I didn't get a mod preview message after I posted today, though. Guess I had to make a certain number of posts first or something.

And I'll respond later in full, but there's at least one thing in my post that your response to Tres didn't cover- Making a positive case for your own side. No amount of tearing down C/T validates C/A.

If you mean your question about explaining how Cloud and Aerith could have a romantic relationship after she died, I think that was fully explained in AC/ACC. AC/ACC shows that they can see one another, speak to one another, and touch one another. Cloud felt the touch of Aerith's hand on his arm in the back to back scene, and Aerith boosted Cloud up to fight Bahamut Shin in the hand reach scene. So if they're able to communicate, see one another, and touch one another, why wouldn't a continuing romance be possible? So SE's already explained it for you.


As for cutting down CxT, I think you should re-read my post, since I acknowledge that who Cloud loves is left up to the interpretation of the player. If it's possible for the player to interpret that Cloud loves Tifa, then I'm not cutting it down. I'm saying it's possible.

CloudxAerith makes a helluva lot more sense to me, and I find their story to be way better developed than Cloud and Tifa. However, it's each according to their own taste, IMO. The only argument I have is your claim that CloudxTifa is canon when CloudxAerith is just as possible an interpretation.

First principles. No assuming the consequent. Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary evidence. Go go go.

I don't think I"m making any extraordinary claims. On the contrary, I think you and Tres are making extraordinary claims by saying that Cloti is canon even though SE has never said such a thing.

 

[Dashell]

(unless you are into some hot duck on broom action)

DON'T JUDGE ME!

I don't think I"m making any extraordinary claims. On the contrary, I think you and Tres are making extraordinary claims by saying that Cloti is canon even though SE has never said such a thing.

What are you looking for exactly? I mean do you want them to actually say in those words, "Cloti is canon"

I know you are basing your answer to the mutual feelings thing based on the affection value, but did the affection value effect the outcome in FFX? Tidus always felt the same about Yuna no matter which girl the affection value catered to. In other words, it's simply a gimmick for replay value, but not to be used to determine who loves who (at least IMO)

So here's my question, I posted a quote for you that said that Cloud and Tifa revealed they had romantic feelings for one another in the Lifestream. IMO that invalids the use of affection values in this case, and at that point in the game, there is no more chance to change the affection values. If you're saying that they did not in fact share their mutual feelings of romance under the highwind, that would require evidence that sometime between the Lifestream event and the Highwind scene, that their feelings changed. When did this happen?

The forum software views them as new, and Lady Lifesteram was double posting a lot. The software could have seen her as a bot since she's still technically "new."

Oh I know the forum does that but can't an admin put them past that or something?
I just feel bad that they're trying and their posts are getting buried

 

[Celes Chere]

Probably more like "Cloud loves Tifa" xD Because apparently mutual feelings mean nothing.

 

[Dashell]

Isn't that what this says?

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless. (page 25)

He was holding feelings for her in the lifestream. If it was past feelings if would have said, "That Cloud had held feelings" or "That Cloud once held feelings" or something like that. The past progressive means it's happening in the lifestream. And it's talking about the Promise Scene and the feelings felt there so it's obviously talking about romantic feelings. So... isn't that the same thing?

 

[Celes Chere]

One would think so.

 

[Splintered]

So if they're able to communicate, see one another, and touch one another, why wouldn't a continuing romance be possible?

Because any information regarding that Cloud/Aerith interaction is sustained after the life threatening event is slim to none. Cloud and Aerith maybe talked a total of five minutes before he was caught off. And each time she was presented as a spiritual guide rather than someone he has consistent contact with. And at the end of the series, Aerith is seen leaving the church, regardless of the logistics of it, to me it's clear symbolism, you are okay now and I'm returning the place I have to be.

Personally, I'm a fan of player interpenetration and vague canon in the OG especially, but I find the idea that he can continue a romance with her post death just silly. Love her even after she's gone, yeah, that's fine within the context of the series. But actual relationships, ehhh no.

Then what's the deal with his grief that she died? If she can talk to anyone whenever she wants, make contact whenever she wants, interact whenever she wants to, then she isn't dead. She got an upgrade. And it doesn't fit with the story at all.

In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.

So doesn't Aerith being able to do all these things post death take away from the essence of what they were trying to bring according to the interview, a sad, tragic, less than hollywood death. What you seem to be proposing is just as good as a resurrection, something the creators always denounced.

That's just my feel of it anyway. Aerith is there, but she's not going to be just another person who also happens to be dead. It cheapens her entire sacrifice, and cheapens the mythology of FVII.

I mean, if Aerith can do these things, can't Zack? Cloud can see Zack, he has a conversation with him. So now he's still bff's and has convos with him on a regular basis?

What about Aerith and Zack? They were pretty much in love during Crisis Core. Does this mean they can start dating again, take that date somewhere again? Then what's the point of having them die on each other in the first place?

Dead is dead. Once you're gone, there are things you can't do. People can still love you, and vice versa, but you can't go on pretending that you're living. Aerith and Zack did come to Cloud when he needed them most, but that's it. When he no longer needed them, they vanished into white light. They're with him in his heart, but not his present. That's the tragedy of it all.

 

[Tennyo]

Oh I know the forum does that but can't an admin put them past that or something?
I just feel bad that they're trying and their posts are getting buried

I'll bring the issue up. I can assure you this is NOT being done on purpose. :/

 

[Dashell]

Okay just FYI, I didn't mean to imply it was done on purpose, I KNEW it was because she was a new member, but I thought that I had seen Ryu or someone take them off mod preview early before. Sorry if I made it seem like I was blaming the admins.

 

[Tennyo]

Oh I know you weren't, I just wanted to make that clear to everyone.

And Ryu may have fixed the whole thing now.

 

[Dashell]

I mean, if Aerith can do these things, can't Zack? Cloud can see Zack, he has a conversation with him. So now he's still bff's and has convos with him on a regular basis?

Aerith was the only one that was said to have her consciousness live on in Cloud, so no. There is no one reason to why Zack can do these things.

 

[Tennyo]

I've never taken the idea of Aerith's consciousness living on inside of Cloud to be literal, but more of one of those, "You're friends will remain in your heart forever," type deals.

Also, to echo Splintered, why is Cloud so sad if she isn't really gone?

The notion of such a thing completely ruins the meaning of her death and her sacrifice. Why didn't she show up during the course of the second and third discs on such a capacity if she is able?

 

[Master Bates]

What are you looking for exactly? I mean do you want them to actually say in those words, "Cloti is canon"

I want SE to feed me with a golden spoon because I am not, for the life of me, capable of feeding myself.

 

[Vendel]

Vendel


I wasn't talking about the credits. I was talking about Beast finding Beauty and reuniting with her during the game.

Oh really?

"SE put that scene of Cloud meeting up with Aerith at the end of KH1 following scenes of Jasmine meeting up with Aladdin, Beauty meeting up with Beast, and other romantic partners meeting up."

You were not talking about the credits despite two of the three things you described happening are in the credits? With the Al/Jas scene happening after the Cloud one nonetheless?

How silly of me.

Then how come Nomura said it answered questions about their relationship in FFVII?

Again if the answers to their relationship are in the KH credits then the answer is "there isn't one".

Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories.But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players.~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140
Scan of that quote: http://clerith.heliohost.org/NomuraKHQuote2.gif

I think this is the part that needs to be emphasized.

So if you don't think that any questions were answered, you'll have to take it up with Nomura. He seems to think that questions were answered.

Again who says the question wasn't answered? If we are to truly take this as something important than it clearly shows nothing. Thus that is the answer.

Oh and what sidestory did cloud and Aerith have in KH's? A couple seconds in the credits? It's not like it was an entire sub-plot in the game where Cloud with the help of his light finally confronts his darkness. THAT is a sidestory.