The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Hawkeye said:
Anyway, why is it telling that he doesn't care about romantic subplots?
IF we accept your translation, it implies that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is unimportant to Nomura. To me, this seems odd if they are intended to be the official canon couple of Final Fantasy VII. Would he act the same way if the topic revolved around another Final Fantasy couple? Probably not.

His lack of interest or inability to directly answer questions about their relationship suggests that there is no official answer regarding their relationship, otherwise he would just say what the answer is to end the constant barrage of questions he receives about their relationship.

The bottom line is: if Nomura wanted to put an end to the constant barrage of questions he receives about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, it would seem as though he would put an end to it IF there was an official answer. But since there isn't an official answer, he isn't able to give an answer, which is probably why he is annoyed because he isn't able to put an end to the constant barrage of questions he receives about their relationship given the lack of an official answer.

And I'll be the first one to admit, this is all of my own personal speculation.

Hawkeye said:
Case of Tifa. A number of romantic moments early on between the two.
I'm glad you qualify your statement with "early on" because "later on" things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa.

Furthermore, what you consider a romantic moment is not necessarily a romantic moment to me. What are the moments in CoT that you view romantically?

To me, there is no obvious moment of romance between Cloud and Tifa. No kiss. No proof they sleep in the same room. Nothing.

There is no scene or piece of dialogue that unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers. This is NOT the case for most of the other canon Final Fantasy couples.

It seems odd to me that if Cloud and Tifa are now considered the canon couple of FFVII during CoT and AC, that SE would not treat them similarly to other canon FF couples and show us an explicit scene of romance between them.

Hawkeye said:
And Nojima talks about it in a romantic context. There has to be something there in the first place to either be "not going well" or for the kids to "help them work out." You even agree that he is talking about romance here because of the comparison to how things might have gone with Aerith.

He isn't talking about one in a romantic context and the other in a platonic.
How is Nojima talking about their relationship under a romantic context? He says he DOESN'T want to delve into the topics of love and marriage.

What I believe exists between Cloud and Tifa is the old saying, "more than friends, less than lovers".

The HAHW scene is proof that mutual romantic feelings exist between Cloud and Tifa. (But just to clarify, there is also sufficient evidence to show Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, as well. It IS possible for Cloud to love both Aerith and Tifa romantically, especially when you consider all the evidence that I've mentioned in my previous posts)

But my point is that to me, the HAHW scene establishes Cloud and Tifa as more than friends, but less than lovers. We never see an explicit scene between Cloud and Tifa that moves them officially from friends to romantic lovers. As I said previously, there is no honeymoon stage to firmly establish them as lovers.

So the way I read Nojima's quote, is that Cloud and Tifa were never able to take that next step and become lovers despite the HAHW scene taking place. They will forever be in this limbo stage where they are more than friends but less than lovers.

The premise from Nojima that things "won't go well" between Cloud and Tifa, suggests that they were never able to take what happened during the HAHW scene and turn it into a romantic relationship. Nojima's premise is reinforced by the fact that we see nothing that unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene takes place.

Hawkeye said:
And, again, there has to be something there in the first place to not go well.
What was there, to me, was the *possibility* of a romantic relationship that was never fully realized because of either difficult and unbearable circumstances, or because of the utter incomparability we see between Cloud and Tifa during CoT and AC. Either way, they never moved officially from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. No scene or piece of dialogue shows us that they officially progressed from friends to lovers.

In fact, Nojima's quote insinuates that the romantic feelings expressed during the HAHW scene disappeared quickly and never developed into a relationship. Or that the LAHW scene happened.

In addition, Nojima's premise that things might have gone "...well with Aerith" is also reinforced by the beautiful spiritual connection we see between Cloud and Aerith, which basically shows us that things most likely would have gone better between Cloud and Aerith if Aerith had lived.

To me, the fact that Nojima mentions a premise that things "won't go well" between Cloud and Tifa, in combination with the dysfunction that we see in CoT and AC, in combination with the part where he says things might have "gone well" with Aerith, implies that Cloud and Aerith have a stronger romantic connection.

In addition, Tifa is repeatedly jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship, which suggests to me that even Tifa sees what Nojima is talking about -- that Cloud and Aerith probably would have worked out better.

Hawkeye said:
Whatever that truth happens to be is irrelevant to me and this discussion itself, really. What's significant about the quote is that it shows Nomura knows what their relationship is, and that, therefore, the notion that there could be no relationship (because he has no clue) is inaccurate.
Nomura has "no clue" about whether Cloud and Tifa are friends or lovers during the two years after FFVII.

But by the time AC rolls around, it is clear to him what the truth of their relationship is. And if the opening scene is anything to go by, it doesn't look good ;)

Hawkeye said:
In a very legitimate way, they both are. Cloud had feelings for them both. Both had feelings for him. One of them died before anything could be established with her, though, so he's living out his life with the other.
1. Love beyond death is a repeated theme in the Final Fantasy franchise. So the fact that Aerith died is irrelevant to a Final Fantasy game, especially when we've seen this theme of love beyond death repeated over and over again.
2. Living with Tifa in his separate room does not automatically mean they are in a romantic relationship, especially when we know how Seventh Heaven has been used in the past.

Hawkeye said:
There are a number of factors complicating how Cloud may feel at any given time (his messed up memories in the original game, his guilt in the two years after, etc.), but he has had romantic feelings for both, and while both were alive with romantic feelings for him. That is sufficient in my mind for "koibito" to apply to both quotes in the reciprocal fashion.
Then if both koibito quotes apply to both relationships in a reciprocal fashion, why are you declaring one couple canon?

Hawkeye said:
That is a fair enough point, and I thank you for it.
Thanks.

Hawkeye said:
Also true. He doesn't have comparable one-on-one time with even Tifa until late in the game and on into On the Way to a Smile.
I'd just like to point out that Cloud's time with Tifa is when he is having a breakdown and is hardly aware of his surroundings. On the contrary, the large span of one-on-one time with Aerith is when he is actively engaged with his surroundings.

Hawkeye said:
Good points as well.
Thanks.

Hawkeye said:
I have never done this. I have only ever brought that quote up to show that the man knows the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
Nomura only knows the nature of their relationship as it pertains to AC, not the two years prior.

It is possible that during the two years prior to AC Cloud and Tifa were wavering between lovers and friends (because of the HAHW scene). Therefore the status of their relationship is unknown during these two years because they are wavering between friends and lovers. But then, by the time AC rolls around, it is clear that Cloud and Tifa will never work out, which then becomes the sad "truth" of their relationship (which wouldn't be surprising considering Nojima's premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa, and the dysfunctional relationship that we see between them with our own eyes)

Hawkeye said:
He is a noncommital dickwad who thinks the word "interpretation" sounds sexy, though. It isn't character assassination if it's true.
I don't think it's true. I think he is being completely genuine when he says he wants all of us to have our own interpretations.

Hawkeye said:
More than "can be," I think it's obviously intended that way. That sort of dialogue is only ever used in that one way.
I'm glad we agree that Cosmo Canyon is to be viewed romantically given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

What do you think about Cait Sith's prediction and the flashback Cloud has in Aerith's house?

And again -- I'm looking at this from how SE is trying to convey ideas to the gamer.

Hawkeye said:
Honestly, I think it's because she is the one he failed to protect. He blames himself for Zack too, but he hadn't promised to protect Zack only to stand by while he died.
But why did he promise to protect her? Because she offered him a date!

To me, the fact that he agreed to protect her for the price of one date implies he felt something special for her that was more than a "friendship".

Hawkeye said:
I really don't see a romantic undertone to how he responds to the guilt of either death. I just see Cloud being Cloud, placing the weight of the world on his shoulders and expecting too much from himself.
The fact that SE calls Aerith's forgiveness the "wish of his heart" implies it has something to do with his romantic feelings for Aerith.

Yes, Cloud's wants forgiveness because he failed to protect Aerith after he agreed that he would. But why did he agree to protect her in the first place…? Given all of SE's quotes, in-game Clerith moments, and the cameo appearances, it seems obvious that he wanted to protect her because of the romantic feelings he had for her. This becomes especially clear because he agreed to protect her after she offered him a date as payment.

My point is that these reasons are all interconnected and not mutually exclusive. His inability to protect Aerith and the guilt he feels from this began initially because he felt a romantic connection to her. This romantic connection is what caused Cloud to agree to protect her in the first place when he accepted a date for payment.

----------------------------

I'm going to point out that the word date is not always inherently romantic. The definition of date is "a social or romantic appointment or engagement." Note how it says social or romantic. When one says date nowadays, they usually mean the romantic kind rather than the merely social kind, but that's not always the case. For example, when I was younger, whenever I went over to a friend's house or vice versa, my mom would call it a "play date". Now since nothing romantic happened between me and my friend during any of these dates, and given that we were both heterosexual males and therefore had no romantic feelings for each other, it's clear she meant it in the social sense rather than the romantic one. So while whenever one says date nowadays 99% of the time they mean the romantic kind, people still do use the word date to refer to the merely social kind.

tl;dr date can mean both a social appointment or a romantic appointment
Under the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as described by SE, it is not hard to view Cloud and Aerith's dates as the "romantic" kind.

To me, these dates are a clear indication that Cloud and Aerith are something more than just friends. The simple fact that Cloud AGREED to go on a date with Aerith shows mutual attraction.

As for the date in the park, well, at the very least, SE views this as an intimate moment shared between two love interests -- which is typically what a date implies.

In fact, from the moment Cloud met Aerith to when they rescue Tifa, it was a clear progression of events meant to set Cloud and Aerith up as mutual love interests. What other character did Cloud have so much flirty one-on-one time with?

Plus, I'm looking at this scene from how SE is trying to convey ideas to the gamer.

By Aerith talking about her past boyfriend who was also in SOLIDER, it brings up the notion of romantic relationships. It implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack.

To me, Aerith mentioning Zack puts the idea of romantic relationships at the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting.
 
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@hawkeye::
I take no offense thank you for the apology. I know this debate has gotten heated. I just disagreed heavily with how you handled it that's all. So I'll move on from that now!

That they are the main characters is why I think they were chosen for those roles in referencing the Hinamatsuri holiday. It wouldn't ring true to put Tifa in that spot.

Right! But my point is that they could have chosen any other pair for Cloud and Aerith, but they decided 'emperor and empress'. If they are not a romantic pair, why did they choose something that hinted that they are a romantic pair? Basically I'm agreeing with MaidenofWar lol.

@I am not me::

Sorry for downplaying Clack, lol! I know I would get upset if anyone downplayed my precious Aerti <3

Goodness gracious, I *did* pay attention to the story. That's why I feel like the forgiveness he feels he needs from Aerith is stronger than the guilt he is also feeling towards Zack. I know that he doesn't need Zack's forgiveness, but I also know Cloud does feel some remorse towards his best friend. I am saying that the remorse he feels for Aerith is much *stronger* especially if you believe in the fact that Cloud loves Aerith. Not that love exceeds how much you care for a friend, but I do believe it is the main priority in his heart ROMANTIC wise. His friendship for Zack can be just as strong, but in a different way. A friendship sort of way (which is also the way I think he feels towards Tifa). I hope that made some sense!

@Norg::
Now I find it absolutely *SILLY* that you think their date is merely social. When Aerith clearly means the date as otherwise when she first insists to Cloud that it be the payment. Tifa gets jealous over the date so obviously she sees it as more than a social engagement, lol. Also during the date the workers at Gold Saucer say "you are the couple of the night" during the play. COUPLE as in PAIR. Not to mention the Gondola ride itself is very romantic. Social 'play dates' don't include doing things that actual couples do... right.?
I want to add I don't consider Cloud and Aerith's talk at the park a date.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I never understood why this topic always devolves into SE commentary and AU and marketing. Is the source material really that badly written and/or hard to understand?
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
I never understood why this topic always devolves into SE commentary and AU and marketing. Is the source material really that badly written and/or hard to understand?

Yes? :monster:

Joking aside. I genuinely think that SE have deliberately left 'wiggle room' I don't really buy all that stuff about 'the Japanese do storytelling differently' or 'the Japanese don't do PDA' I've seen Jap films and anime where the romantic couple end up sucking face or whatever.

Thats not to say that 'it's up to interpretation' just that they don't want to put the nail in the coffin (excuse the expression) for CxA, because why upset half the fanbase? I find it hard to believe they're not aware of the whole LTD.

I mean, when FFVII was a standalone title, they (SE) must have thought they'd made it clear that Cloud ended up with Tifa. Then they realise half the fanbase doesn't see it that way, so maybe they deliberately downplay Cloud and Tifa?

I'm just thinking out loud here. I still think CxT is how it stands as of the end of the compilation (and just to emphasise not because I care about Cloud and Tifa or ship it - I don't. It's just thats how the narrative makes sense) but honestly I can see some of why a CxA supporter might think otherwise.

I'm trying to think of another series with a LTD, I know Bleach has one but I honestly don't know much about that or even if its the same set of circumstances or what. But you do have to wonder, when the other FFs romances are so obviously stated (or at least the ones I am aware of are)

.....kind of run out of steam here :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
IF we accept your translation, it implies that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is unimportant to Nomura. To me, this seems odd if they are intended to be the official canon couple of Final Fantasy VII. Would he act the same way if the topic revolved around another Final Fantasy couple? Probably not.

Why wouldn't he? He plainly says "I don't care who loves who." He thinks the questions are stupid, whether it be about Sephiroth (the question that prompted his response), Cloud and Tifa, or anyone else.

Blank said:
His lack of interest or inability to directly answer questions about their relationship suggests that there is no official answer regarding their relationship, otherwise he would just say what the answer is to end the constant barrage of questions he receives about their relationship.

Not if he doesn't care, and -- as you keep pointing out -- wants people to think about those things on their own.

Ini any case, how do you explain him identifying Tifa as someone's koibito in Advent Children if it's completely irrelevant or he's unable to answer? If she isn't Cloud's koibito, whose is she? And if not his, why does it matter at all to mention it alongside the roles she actually has in the movie?

What does her being a koibito have to do with the movie if she isn't the koibito of the only character whom she has significant interaction with beyond her kids?

She has a couple of lines with Reno, a couple with Yuffie, and a couple with Loz. That's it.

All of her significant moments of dialogue are with Marlene, Denzel and Cloud.

Blank said:
I'm glad you qualify your statement with "early on" because "later on" things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa.

Right. They do have that "honeymoon phase" people were talking about earlier. Then their issues start making problems for them -- Cloud's depression, Tifa's insecurities and difficulties voicing those. Things get better again for a while, and then devolve once more.

Blank said:
Furthermore, what you consider a romantic moment is not necessarily a romantic moment to me. What are the moments in CoT that you view romantically?

Cloud saying he knows he can succeed in his life now because he has Tifa with him in a different way than before. Also, his claim that he will remind Tifa of her strength when she forgets it, and his blushing.

Blank said:
How is Nojima talking about their relationship under a romantic context? He says he DOESN'T want to delve into the topics of love and marriage.

He says he doesn't mean to go into those things, as that's what he had done. Otherwise, what do you think he was talking about, and why would he be mentioning love, marriage and family?

If he's not talking about family, then why does he talk about how kids can get parents to work through their issues? If he's not talking about love and marriage, why is he talking about how things may go between Cloud and Tifa, the issues they would have regardless of Sephiroth and Jenova, and why is he saying "things might have gone well with Aerith"?

Those are precisely the topics he was speaking to. He isn't known for bringing up ponies in a conversation about FFVII.

Blank said:
The HAHW scene is proof that mutual romantic feelings exist between Cloud and Tifa.

Well, at least we can agree on that. :monster:

Blank said:
In addition, Nojima's premise that things might have gone "...well with Aerith" is also reinforced by the beautiful spiritual connection we see between Cloud and Aerith, which basically shows us that things most likely would have gone better between Cloud and Aerith if Aerith had lived.

Don't forget that he says Cloud and Aerith would have had problems of their own.

Blank said:
In addition, Tifa is repeatedly jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship, which suggests to me that even Tifa sees what Nojima is talking about -- that Cloud and Aerith probably would have worked out better.

I'm sure she worries about that as well. But she's also an overthinker and insecure; her insecurities are not necessarily to be trusted any more than Cloud's (e.g. Aerith didn't hate him for her death; Tifa didn't hate him when they were kids).

Blank said:
Nomura has "no clue" about whether Cloud and Tifa are friends or lovers during the two years after FFVII.

But by the time AC rolls around, it is clear to him what the truth of their relationship is. And if the opening scene is anything to go by, it doesn't look good ;)

Again, how can he have no clue when the movie is the resolution of the two years prior? He and Nojima wouldn't discuss the story they're working on? He has no idea what the movie he's directing is about?

Blank said:
1. Love beyond death is a repeated theme in the Final Fantasy franchise. So the fact that Aerith died is irrelevant to a Final Fantasy game, especially when we've seen this theme of love beyond death repeated over and over again.

That's a self-defeating argument. One of the characters in question here has herself moved on from a dead lover.

For all the Final Fantasy characters you can identify who didn't move on after the death of their partner (or got their partner back before they could have moved on), I can point to as many who did.

You've got Vincent, Barret, Yuna and Ashe as characters who didn't move on and find another lover.

Hilda moved on (from Scott to Gordon). Edward moved on (Anna to Harley). Locke moved on (Rachel to Celes). Aerith moved on (Zack to Cloud).

Laguna kind of applies to both, as he moved on from Julia (who married someone else), but never remarried after Raine died.

There's not really a theme here.

Blank said:
2. Living with Tifa in his separate room does not automatically mean they are in a romantic relationship, especially when we know how Seventh Heaven has been used in the past.

We don't know that he has a separate bedroom. We know he has an office that is officially called "Cloud's office" even while the children's bedroom is officially "the children's bedroom."

Blank said:
Then if both koibito quotes apply to both relationships in a reciprocal fashion, why are you declaring one couple canon?

Because it is. :monster:

Cloti being canon doesn't require Cloud to not have romantic feelings for Aerith.

Blank said:
I'd just like to point out that Cloud's time with Tifa is when he is having a breakdown and is hardly aware of his surroundings. On the contrary, the large span of one-on-one time with Aerith is when he is actively engaged with his surroundings.

"Actively engaged" is wording it a bit strongly. Disc 1 Cloud is a mess of disparate personalities. The real guy is observing what's going on, but not in charge.

In any case, Cloud and Tifa have significant one-on-one interaction in the latter half of the game (sans breakdowns) and in On the Way to a Smile.

Blank said:
Nomura only knows the nature of their relationship as it pertains to AC, not the two years prior.

Once more: He must know or he was directing a movie without knowing what it was about.

Blank said:
I don't think it's true. I think he is being completely genuine when he says he wants all of us to have our own interpretations.

That -- along with the refusal to give straight answers to simple questions -- is why he is a noncommital dickwad. :monster:

Blank said:
What do you think about Cait Sith's prediction and the flashback Cloud has in Aerith's house?

I think both of those play a role in building up the player's expectations that Aerith is going to live out the game and get with Cloud. At the time of seeing those, we don't know that Aerith is going to die or that he's been carrying feelings for Tifa (a younger woman rather than an older one) since childhood.

Blank said:
But why did he promise to protect her? Because she offered him a date!

To me, the fact that he agreed to protect her for the price of one date implies he felt something special for her that was more than a "friendship".

At the time of their agreement, they had only just met. He didn't know anything about her. He had only just found out her name, in fact.

It's not implied he felt anything for her other than a desire to get in her pants. She offered him something he wanted in exchange for something he wanted. When she asked him to be her bodyguard, he didn't jump at the chance. He told her it would cost her.

It's really only when he gets to know her that we can conclude he has feelings for her.

Blank said:
The fact that SE calls Aerith's forgiveness the "wish of his heart" implies it has something to do with his romantic feelings for Aerith.

"Wish in his heart." And not really. If it was meant to be romantic, you'd think it would be about being with her, not getting her forgiveness.

EDIT: If you're wondering why I'm so opposed to associating any of this guilt stuff with his romantic feelings for her, it's because there's nothing beautiful about guilt at all. It's a terrible way to remember someone you love, and distorts their place in your heart -- which is what happened to Zack and Aerith with Cloud. Given that Cloud's story was about moving on from the past, I don't think that sort of unhealthy ideal is what Nojima and co. were going for.

Cloud's memories of them became bogged down in rust and grey skies. The bright and sunny imagery in that final shot of the Buster Sword (now restored) in the church appears to be a deliberate contrast with the imagery up to that point. It's only then that Cloud is free to think of the fond memories again.
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Hawkeye said:
Why wouldn't he? He plainly says "I don't care who loves who." He thinks the questions are stupid, whether it be about Sephiroth (the question that prompted his response), Cloud and Tifa, or anyone else.

Not if he doesn't care, and -- as you keep pointing out -- wants people to think about those things on their own.

Ini any case, how do you explain him identifying Tifa as someone's koibito in Advent Children if it's completely irrelevant or he's unable to answer? If she isn't Cloud's koibito, whose is she? And if not his, why does it matter at all to mention it alongside the roles she actually has in the movie?

What does her being a koibito have to do with the movie if she isn't the koibito of the only character whom she has significant interaction with beyond her kids?

She has a couple of lines with Reno, a couple with Yuffie, and a couple with Loz. That's it.

All of her significant moments of dialogue are with Marlene, Denzel and Cloud.
The fact that Nomura doesn't say anything definitively about their relationship suggests to me that there isn't a definitive answer, otherwise he'd tell us the answer to put an end to the constant barrage of fans inquiring about it.

Therefore, by Nomura not giving us a definitive answer, it matches his quote where he says he believes that everyone is free to interpret SE's work differently.

As I've said before -- the koibito quotes for both pairings suggests to me that both pairings are canon. Therefore, Cloud can have romantic love for either Aerith or Tifa depending how you interpret the compilation.

Hawkeye said:
Right. They do have that "honeymoon phase" people were talking about earlier. Then their issues start making problems for them -- Cloud's depression, Tifa's insecurities and difficulties voicing those. Things get better again for a while, and then devolve once more.

Cloud saying he knows he can succeed in his life now because he has Tifa with him in a different way than before. Also, his claim that he will remind Tifa of her strength when she forgets it, and his blushing.
None of your examples are indicative of a relationship that is more than a friendship. Your examples could easily mean Cloud and Tifa simply share a strong friendship, or that they are more than friends but less than lovers.

What I'm asking for is an indisputable scene or piece of dialogue that tells me Cloud and Tifa developed a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene takes place. This would include Cloud saying he loves Tifa, a scene where they are sleeping in the same bed, a kiss, holding hands, etc.

Nothing shown between Cloud and Tifa is even remotely similar to the sort of dialogue or scenes SE has used for other canon Final Fantasy couples.

Furthermore, the hand reach scene Cloud has with Aerith is the most romantic physical contact Cloud has with either Aerith or Tifa, IMO. Holding hands is commonly associated with romantic couples and is not something people typically do, aside from little girls playing or parents holding their child's hand when crossing a street (Cloud and Aerith do not fall under either of these categories). Therefore, the only type of category Cloud and Aerith fall under where holding hands is a typical behavior is the romantic kind.

The act of holding hands is an obvious piece of romantic imagery between Cloud and Aerith, especially given the nature of their relationship that has been established throughout FFVII and through SE's quotes. SE would NEVER show Cloud holding hands with any of his male comrades. In addition, Cloud and Tifa do not have any physical contact that is as romantic as Cloud and Aerith holding hands. I maintain that SE showing Cloud and Aerith holding hands is the most obvious piece of romantic imagery we've seen Cloud exhibit between either Aerith or Tifa.

I'd also say the way in which the burial scene was crafted suggests it was meant to show us, through imagery, a man laying to rest a woman he loved. The entire focus of the burial scene was on Cloud and Aerith. No other character was shown during the burial scene.

Plus, given the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship (as supported by in-game Clerith moments, official quotes by SE, and cameo appearances), when we see Cloud embracing Aerith in his arms during the burial scene, and when we consider the line that came before it, "What about us, what are WE supposed to do?", it suggests a man laying to rest a woman he loved romantically.

The imagery during the burial scene would not be even remotely similar if Barret, Red XIII, Vincent, or Cid had died. Granted, the imagery might have been similar if Tifa had died -- but we'll never know for sure. All we know is the imagery SE showed between Cloud and Aerith, which suggests a man embracing a woman he loved for the very last time and then laying her rest.

To me, it is not hard to see how certain pieces of imagery between Cloud and Aerith are crafted in ways that are romantic -- especially the hand reach scene and the burial scene.

Hawkeye said:
If he's not talking about family, then why does he talk about how kids can get parents to work through their issues?
Nojima says he's not sure if the kids will be able to help Cloud and Tifa work through their issues. This implies that Cloud and Tifa's issues are almost to the point of no return, because Nojima is not even sure if the kids will be enough to help them work through their issues. So the fact that Nojima isn't even sure if the kids will be enough to help them work through their problems hints that their issues are major and might be permanent.

Hawkeye said:
If he's not talking about love and marriage, why is he talking about how things may go between Cloud and Tifa, the issues they would have regardless of Sephiroth and Jenova, and why is he saying "things might have gone well with Aerith"?
If Nojima is talking about love and marriage, and he mentions the premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa (while talking about love and marriage) that could easily mean love and marriage are not in the cards for Cloud and Tifa.

The only other time SE refers to "marriage" is when they call Cait Sith's prediction a wedding prediction.

Hawkeye said:
I'm sure she worries about that as well. But she's also an overthinker and insecure; her insecurities are not necessarily to be trusted any more than Cloud's (e.g. Aerith didn't hate him for her death; Tifa didn't hate him when they were kids).
The fact that Tifa is an overthinker and insecure is beside the point. Tifa is repeatedly shown getting jealous over Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Not only is she jealous of Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, but she gets jealous while in her jail cell at Shinra headquarters. This suggests that Tifa sees what Nojima hints at -- that Cloud's relationship with Aerith would have gone better than the relationship we see between Cloud and Tifa.

Tifa is jealous of her "love rival" (ie: the other heroine our hero is wavering between).

Hawkeye said:
Again, how can he have no clue when the movie is the resolution of the two years prior? He and Nojima wouldn't discuss the story they're working on? He has no idea what the movie he's directing is about?
You stated that "EARLY ON" in CoT Cloud and Tifa's relationship was going well. Therefore, the nature of their relationship seems to waver during CoT. It has a high period during the beginning, but descends into a low point before AC. This suggests that they are more than friends but not yet lovers during CoT. So although they have moments where they seem to be developing into a romantic relationship, nothing confirms, unequivocally, that they are a romantic couple during CoT. Then, by the time AC rolls around, the issues between them deepen to the point where they are barely speaking to one another.

This suggests that after a brief period of wavering between friends and lovers during CoT, their communication problems start to become unbearable. What we see in AC is the accumulation of problems that began in CoT.

AC shows us the result of the problems that began in CoT, which is the slow breakdown of their relationship. Nojima says that even the children might not be enough to fix the issues that have developed between Cloud and Tifa.

Hawkeye said:
You've got Vincent, Barret, Yuna and Ashe as characters who didn't move on and find another lover.
These four characters are enough to suggest to me that SE has repeated this theme of love beyond death. So although these four characters might not be enough to convince you that SE has repeated this theme, my overall point is that Cloud and Aerith are not the only Final Fantasy couple to exhibit the theme of love beyond death. Therefore, even if you don't view it as a theme, the big-picture point I'm trying to make is that just because Aerith is dead does not completely stop Cloud and Aerith from continuing a relationship together. SE states Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.

Furthermore, Tidus and Yuna are considered the canon couple of FFX. If Tidus x Yuna can be considered the canon couple of FFX, I don't see why Aerith's death stops Cloud x Aerith from being considered just as valid as Cloud x Tifa.

(In addition, the way Vincent can see Lucrecia and speak with her in DoC is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC. This suggests Cloud and Aerith's post-death relationship is similar to another post-death relationship found in the Final Fantasy series)

Hawkeye said:
We don't know that he has a separate bedroom. We know he has an office that is officially called "Cloud's office" even while the children's bedroom is officially "the children's bedroom."
It seems odd to have a bed/cot in an office for no reason. And it doesn't really matter whether it's a bed or a cot. The overall point is that Cloud has a place to sleep in a space that is considered his own. Who sleeps there if not Cloud...? It only seems logical to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed/cot found in his room because why else would SE randomly include a place to sleep in his room? Did they really just include a random place to sleep for the heck of it...?

Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it seems only logical to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed/cot found in the four walls that is considered his own personal space.

Also, Tifa refers to the place that has this random bed/cot as a "room".

Hawkeye said:
In any case, Cloud and Tifa have significant one-on-one interaction in the latter half of the game (sans breakdowns) and in On the Way to a Smile.
So here we are again -- both Cloud and Tifa have significant one-on-one time with Cloud. Aerith's just happens to be at the beginning of the game, whereas Tifa's only happens after Aerith is out of the picture.

Hawkeye said:
I think both of those play a role in building up the player's expectations that Aerith is going to live out the game and get with Cloud. At the time of seeing those, we don't know that Aerith is going to die or that he's been carrying feelings for Tifa (a younger woman rather than an older one) since childhood.
I also agree that the Cait Sith wedding prediction and Cloud's flashback at Aerith's house was included in FFVII by SE to suggest to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith are to be viewed as romantic interests.

Hawkeye said:
At the time of their agreement, they had only just met. He didn't know anything about her. He had only just found out her name, in fact.
Cloud agreed to protect her for the price of one date. My interpretation of this is that Cloud felt an instant attraction to this young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious woman.

Hawkeye said:
"Wish in his heart." And not really. If it was meant to be romantic, you'd think it would be about being with her, not getting her forgiveness.
If you can't apply the term "Wish in his heart" to the context of Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship, it appears as though you are in denial about what "Wish in his heart" means as it pertains to the romantic relationship established between Cloud and Aerith.

The "Wish in his heart" was for Aerith to forgive him so he could be freed from his guilt. I can't believe I have to explain how the term "heart" is very romantic and implies love, ESPECIALLY when you consider the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. To me, this quote means his guilt weighs heavy on his heart because he loved Aerith *romantically*.

Cloud continued to want to protect Aerith long after their initial meeting because of the feelings he developed for her. So my overall point is that the reason why Cloud's guilt is so strong is because he failed to protect her, and the reason he wanted to protect her was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. All of these reasons are interconnected and underly each other.
 
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Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
*reads the last few pages*

Old arguments again and again. I have no time to debate or post stuff in TLS but I'll sum some stuff.

Basically, Blankbeat's, Anastar's and many Clerith debaters use this flow:

Official statements on Cloti aren't valid proofs because -> Nomura's statement "I don't know" between Cloud and Tifa and "free to interpret the movie" -> Date Mechanism proves Cloti is optional -> "love triangle" is a theme incorporated so it's up to the viewer to decide -> nothing refutes these so Cloti remains to interpretation -> in our interpretation Clerith is intended because -> Official statements Clerith is valid -> despite date mechanism Dismantled canonizes Clerith date -> And COWL says Cloud is Aerith's lover

Things also to consider
"But that's just a fan translation it could be wrong"
"We would never know the answer because nothing is confirmed"
"That's just your opinion"

:monster:

And Cloud and Tifa being dysfunctional? The old argument again. I see my parents in Cloti, my mom and dad tells me everything they can't say to each other. I end up as a Marlene to them. Sometimes they fight sometimes they are sweet. Mama's too sensitive, Papa lacks sensitivity. That hurts many times. Guess what, they're 20 years married. In those 20 years they never worked out their issues. That's real life. There's no perfect rainbow relationship. Couples fight, they fight nasty. Cloti's issues are much more tame.

Also, Cloud's delivery service is not the worst "separator."I know many families in my country where one spouse works abroad to support the family, my dad went to Saudi for two years, my mom to Guam for two years. Some couples become separated for years. That's the sacrifice you got to do to earn a living.

And geez what was it? Cloti's a relationship but dysfunctional or Cloti was never in a relationship?

Because a canon couple means they love each other at one point in time. It doesn't matter if the broke up, divorce, hated each other after a week. It doesn't matter if Cloti doesn't stay forever, or Cloud still loves Aerith. As long as Cloud and Tifa loved each other at one point they're canon.

I'll be watching this thread.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
Double post, I made this weeks ago and might as well use it here for reference purposes:


  • Cloud wanted to join Soldier so Tifa would notice him, and this is an important memory to him
(SOURCE 10th AU page 12: &#8220;Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER.&#8221;

&#8220;Tifa: Talk to me. About anything, some important memory to you&#8230; Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place
Cloud: &#8230;&#8230;I was devastated. &#8230;&#8230;I wanted to be noticed
Tifa: Someone has to notice you&#8230;? &#8230;&#8230;who?&#8221; &#8220;Who&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;?
Cloud: &#8230;&#8230;You know who! &#8230;&#8230;You, that&#8217;s who.&#8221;

  • Cloud&#8217;s promise to Tifa is something her would never forget
A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.
When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud&#8217;s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the &#8220;promise.&#8221;
  • In the Lifestream, Cloud and Tifa learned each others&#8217; feelings both past and present
She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding. FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud&#8217;s heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.
tumblr_inline_mjoev5VidQ1qz4rgp.png

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud&#8217;s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim&#8217;s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC. Crisis Core Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Profile

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud&#8217;s profile)
&#8220;Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.&#8221;

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa&#8217;s profile)
&#8220;When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. &#8220;

(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
&#8220;Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.&#8221;

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)

&#8220;When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221;
(FF25th Tifa&#8217;s Memorial Scenes)
The Fateful Night the Two Share
An event near the time of the final battle with Sephiroth, where Cloud and Tifa stay at the airship Highwind together. With this possibly being the end &#8212; an evening overcome with a flood of feelings becomes something special.
&#8220;Words aren&#8217;t the only thing that tell people what you&#8217;re thinking&#8230;&#8221;
Prairie: The last night before the final battle, to Cloud when he finds himself at a loss for words












For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire towards one another

FF 25th AU

  • Cloud thinks that he can succeed because he has Tifa and it&#8217;s different between them now
As Tifa looked away from the sky towards the ground, she was fearful of the future. However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn&#8217;t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, &#8220;What&#8217;s wrong?&#8221;
&#8220;Cloud, you&#8217;re smiling.&#8221;
&#8220;I am?&#8221;
&#8220;Yeah.&#8221;
&#8220;It all starts now. A new&#8230;&#8221;
Cloud looked for the right words.
&#8220;A new life.&#8221;
&#8220;I&#8217;m going to live. I think that&#8217;s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things&#8230; happened.&#8221;
&#8220;That&#8217;s right&#8230;&#8221;
&#8220;But when I think about how many times I&#8217;ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it&#8217;s funny.&#8221;
&#8220;Why?&#8221;
&#8220;Because I&#8217;ve always failed everything.&#8221;
&#8220;That&#8217;s not funny.&#8221;
&#8220;After this &#8230; I think I&#8217;ll be okay.&#8221;
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
&#8220;Because I have you this time.&#8221;
&#8220;You&#8217;ve always had me.&#8221;
&#8220;What I mean is kind of different,&#8221; Cloud answered with another smile.
-Case of Tifa

  • Cloud is raising a family with Tifa
tumblr_inline_mjof0o761C1qz4rgp.png

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened &#8220;Seventh Heaven&#8221; bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj&#8217;s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41


&#8220;Good for you. Whole world&#8217;s clappin&#8217; you on the back. So Cloud&#8217;s with Tifa?&#8221;
&#8220;Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin&#8217; out, but it sounds like he&#8217;s got his own business keepin&#8217; him tied up now. A delivery service.&#8221;
&#8220;Cloud? Run a business?&#8221;
&#8220;You can bet it&#8217;s Tifa kickin&#8217; his ass into shape.&#8221;
&#8221;I see. In the end, it&#8217;s the women wear the pants.&#8221; -Case of Barret


I want to see Cloud &#8212; Marlene&#8217;s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn&#8217;t just Cloud&#8217;s childhood friend, but also the mother of the &#8216;family&#8217; they were forming in Edge.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47
  • Cloud is happy with Tifa and the kids
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful &#8220;memories&#8221; of the past. FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m fit to save anyone. Not family, not friends &#8230; no one. &#12301;

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children,the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud&#8230;
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

Nomura in Distance: &#8220;The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes.&#8221;
  • Cloud finds peace with Tifa and his family with her
AC Prologue: &#8220;Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful livinghe&#8217;s never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away.&#8221;

  • Tifa believes in Cloud, knows him all too well and supports him.
Apart from being Cloud&#8217;s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him. FFVII 10thAnniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47
Even though being burdened with painful &#8220;memories&#8221; is the same for everyone &#65293; Unable to do much for Cloud who is always dragging around his regrets for the past, she subconsciously raises her voice.
Tifa, watching over Cloud warmly as he regains the strength to move forward. Having been together with him since they were young, she is able to believe in his recovery for certain.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47
  • Tifa is someone&#8217;s koibito (romantic sweetheart/girlfriend)
tumblr_inline_mjoflvghiP1qz4rgp.png
&#8220;There are many dimensions to Tifa&#8217;s character. She&#8217;s like a mother, a sweetheart [koibito], and a close ally in battle&#8220;:
Advent Children Reunion Files book (pg. 19)~ Nomura
  • Tifa is the only one Cloud has opened his heart to
Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa&#8217;s eyes. But he really isn&#8217;t the type to open up (laughs). ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile
Tifa, who from 2 years ago has been the only one Cloud opened his heart to. Now he has closed off his heart even from her. ~AC Prologue Book
  • Tifa is an important woman to Cloud who helped him gain the strength to move forward
tumblr_inline_mjoeypWQQV1qz4rgp.png
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward. - Cloud Strife Profile FFVII10th AU
  • Cloud&#8217;s Promised Land is the place where Tifa, the kids and all the people he loves surround him
(SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

The place where he awakens&#8212;-
That is Cloud&#8217;s Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn&#8217;t belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma&#8212; his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around&#8212;- &#8220;she&#8221; is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness&#8230; And so they too go back to where they belong.

  • Cloud and Tifa belong together
tumblr_inline_mjofnvFOTb1qz4rgp.png
Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together.Everybody would be back home where they belonged. - Two years is too short to forget the past completely, but it&#8217;s still a pretty long time&#8230; And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little.&#8221; -Nojima














  • Tifa was there whenever Cloud needed her
In the past you&#8217;ve always looked after me, you [Marlene,] Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you. Now it&#8217;s my turn
.- Cloud in ACC
-
  • Tifa is Cloud&#8217;s light in Kingdom Hearts, when Sephiroth is his darkness
&#8220;In Mr. Nojima&#8217;s scenario, it explained Cloud and Tifa&#8217;s connection more in-depth but I deleted it away. I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, &#8220;If Cloud&#8217;s darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light&#8221;; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn&#8217;t really human.&#8221; &#8212; Nomura
*note: the ambiguity is whether Tifa is human or not

  • Cloud and Tifa died for each other in Dissidia
Is this it? Is this the end? Cosmos, goddess of harmony.If you can hear me, listen to my plea. I beg you. Save her. Save my friend&#8230; Tifa&#8221; - Cloud&#8217;s dying words
His adamant will reaches the throne of Cosmos. Cosmos rescues Cloud after he is defeated by Chaos and on the verge of disappearing. Ironically, that whom he set out to protect sacrificed herself to protect him.
Cloud&#8217;s Character Museum


I made this to counter the "11 Reasons to Ship CloudxAeris" which I dare you guys to look at the anti-Cloti tag in tumblr.

 

OneWingedDemon

NOT AMUSED
OIC

It's the old "it's up to interpretation but the only valid one is cleris", also Cloud & Tifa fight so they can't be a couple.

It's pretty telling in itself that Cloud and Tifa's issues come up in these debates. This is never a problem with Aeris because Cloud and Aeris were never a couple and never had to have an actual relationship, so their fans can forever live in fantasy land where Aeris is pure and never gets frustrated with Cloud.

The idea that things might have gone well with Aeris is a moot point & even Nojima frames it in hypothetical terms. Cloud and Aeris never entered this stage, guy never even finds out she liked him, only sees her go away with Zack. He even puts Zack's motherfucking sword in Aeris' motherfucking flowerbed -- figure out your own metaphor there :awesome:
 
That's real life. There's no perfect rainbow relationship. Couples fight, they fight nasty. Cloti's issues are much more tame.

And a lot of you believe that Clerith fans think that Cloud and Aerith would have the perfect rainbow sunshine happiness relationship, even though no one ever said that. Certainly no one believes Cloud and Aerith would NEVER fight but with how they interacted they seemed to have more chemistry. You say you see Cloud and Tifa within your parents and I'm sure plenty of people can tie Clerith relationship to many things as well. I feel like Cloud and Aerith would handle any relationship problems they found themselves in, a lot better than Cloud and Tifa would. This is based on the fact that they never fought during the game, they dated, they joked around and laughed with one another, Cloud's reaction to her expressing her lonely feelings, Aerith seeing through to the essence of Cloud and appearing in his dreams, and finally his reaction to her death and his actions afterwards. They show his deep love for Aerith and that they had a very strong relationship. I think it's that strength that would cause them to work their problems out a lot easier than having complicated feelings as shown in the CT relationship. For one Aerith doesn't HAVE any complicated feelings or feelings of jealousy for Tifa (while she's alive) for an issue like that to be present in the CA relationship. That's just some of the reasons why I find appeal in the CA relationship:: I believe in trust, honesty, not keeping secrets, and being happy. Aerith excelled in all of these things the most. I feel Cloud would not run from Aerith, but seek her out.

I'm tired of the notion that all Clerith fans believe Cloud and Aerith would never fight. also i'd like to make a reply to danseru's other post but I'm running short on time right now! If no one else gets at it when I'm back I would be delighted to share my view on those. :)

Also just to note: There ARE couples out there believe it or not that rarely fight or never have gotten into a really bad argument. Just an FYI
 

Lex

Administrator
I don't think anyone ever said anything about them never fighting. It's just that the perception most Clerith shippers give off is that because Cloud and Tifa fight they therefore don't have a romantic relationship, therefore Cloud and Aerith would have the rainbows and sunshine (or "honeymoon period" as I saw quoted previously).

In my genuinely non-Cloti opinion, I find it hypocritical that this is used as a basis in support of Clerith when it clearly acknowledges a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa, albeit dysfunctional. The bottom line remains that whatever chemistry Cloud and Aerith had (and I certainly think they did) is just irrelevant at a point where he is now in a relationship with Tifa and most importantly unable to pursue a relationship with Aerith because she's dead. I don't ship, unless you count Mass Effect, but it's pretty plain to see. I just don't understand why people have such a problem with this.
 

Murdim

Rookie Adventurer
It's pretty telling in itself that Cloud and Tifa's issues come up in these debates. This is never a problem with Aeris because Cloud and Aeris were never a couple and never had to have an actual relationship, so their fans can forever live in fantasy land where Aeris is pure and never gets frustrated with Cloud.
Honestly, that's the thing that bothers me the most about the whole Love Triangle Debacle. Different people prefer to see different characters together, canon and/or common sense be damned... and that's pretty cool, in my opinion. I don't even really care whether people think Cloti is purely platonic, doomed to failure, or didn't go anywhere at all after the end of disk 2.

My problem with the idea a post-mortem romance between Cloud and Aerith is that it simply does not work within the greater narrative. The characters would be opposed to it, the storyline simply didn't allow their relationship to develop to this point, and one of the recurring themes is the nature of the "Promised Land" - not a physical or even metaphysical place, but the situation in life that makes you happy and fulfilled.

It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You can try to make it fit, but then you will have to prune it around the corners. You will have to discard things like the characterization of Aerith as an extremely lively and self-assured young woman, the fact that Cloud only interacted with her during a period where he barely qualified as being his actual self, the more positive traits and feelings that he displayed after he snapped out of it, the grief over Aerith's death expressed by the rest of AVALANCHE so that Cloud's can truly feel special, and so on. In the end, when it does fall into the round hole, it won't be a square peg at all anymore.

Again, if people were just fancying it, it would be fine. But so many people are holding it as canon that, in the eyes of pop culture, Final Fantasy VII will always be remembered as the story of a self-important emo kid constantly pining over his dead Mary Sue flat satellite character girlfriend while defeating his impeccably hairbrushed Villain Sue nemesis for the umpteenth time, oh, and there was that girl with the huge breasts too, and some sort of Mr T impersonator but they don't really matter. Believe me, I've been there myself.
 

Kittie

General Eccentric
AKA
The Iron Witch
^ This. Without question. Ironically enough, I&#8217;ve actually come across the very same thing in another fandom. I can&#8217;t say how many facepalm moments I&#8217;ve had, from all of the lunacy that sadly goes hand and hand with The Phantom of the Opera. Generally a lot of fans will only look at Andrew Lloyd Webber&#8217;s musical and its sequel, or Susan Kay&#8217;s adaptation, and completely disregard Gaston Leroux&#8217;s novel, which is the absolute canon above everything else&#8212;namely regarding the outcome of the story and its characters. I like the idea of Erik/Christine, I really do, as much as anyone else; but, in taking a step back from the tragic beauty of their relationship, as well as what could&#8217;ve been between them, I can&#8217;t help but appreciate Gaston Leroux and why he decided to frame his story&#8217;s narrative the way that he did&#8212;and how he ended it.

The love triangle among Erik, Christine, and Raoul has been a subject of debate and contention among fans for years&#8212;FFVII&#8217;s love triangle has nothing on the POTO&#8217;s, trust me&#8212;and it really depends on what adaptation one goes by, although, again, Leroux has the final say on what happens, and that has a tendency to drive a few shippers to distraction. They don&#8217;t get their idyllically happy ending, and therefore attack the character &#8220;responsible&#8221; for sinking their ship. (Even though said character was an accomplished sailor of the French navy.) :monster: Nevertheless, for good or ill, the story ends the way that it does, and no amount of character bashing, much less a very bewildering infusion of costly adaptations, can ever change the outcome of that.

Setting shipping and whatever else aside and taking a truly unbiased, objective view at the story&#8212;with any story, really&#8212;it just makes sense. And the very same thing applies to what SE has done with the Compilation. I&#8217;m honestly done with/burnt-out/disenchanted by the whole concept behind fictional ships; it&#8217;s just so much better to be both honest and objective about everything regarding them, and simply appreciate a story for what it is. If we fail to look beyond an impulsive need to pare down a quote to where it no longer makes sense, then I&#8217;m afraid we also fail to grasp the fact that, beyond pairings and romance, FFVII&#8217;s story is rather remarkable&#8212;without that kind of thing.
 
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Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
And a lot of you believe that Clerith fans think that Cloud and Aerith would have the perfect rainbow sunshine happiness relationship, even though no one ever said that. Certainly no one believes Cloud and Aerith would NEVER fight but with how they interacted they seemed to have more chemistry. You say you see Cloud and Tifa within your parents and I'm sure plenty of people can tie Clerith relationship to many things as well. I feel like Cloud and Aerith would handle any relationship problems they found themselves in, a lot better than Cloud and Tifa would. This is based on the fact that they never fought during the game, they dated, they joked around and laughed with one another, Cloud's reaction to her expressing her lonely feelings, Aerith seeing through to the essence of Cloud and appearing in his dreams, and finally his reaction to her death and his actions afterwards. They show his deep love for Aerith and that they had a very strong relationship. I think it's that strength that would cause them to work their problems out a lot easier than having complicated feelings as shown in the CT relationship. For one Aerith doesn't HAVE any complicated feelings or feelings of jealousy for Tifa (while she's alive) for an issue like that to be present in the CA relationship. That's just some of the reasons why I find appeal in the CA relationship:: I believe in trust, honesty, not keeping secrets, and being happy. Aerith excelled in all of these things the most. I feel Cloud would not run from Aerith, but seek her out.

I'm tired of the notion that all Clerith fans believe Cloud and Aerith would never fight. also i'd like to make a reply to danseru's other post but I'm running short on time right now! If no one else gets at it when I'm back I would be delighted to share my view on those. :)

Also just to note: There ARE couples out there believe it or not that rarely fight or never have gotten into a really bad argument. Just an FYI

See Junko, I'm not arguing that Clerith won't fight, or Cloti has the better chemistry. I actually can't prove or disprove Clerith having a better chemistry. It's fine if you think they're better together.

The problem is the argument that Cloti is dysfunctional. Trust me, I've seen so many Clerith posts and essay arguing this is the case.
from wikipedia:

A dysfunctional family is a family in which conflict, misbehavior, and often child neglect or abuse on the part of individual parents occur continually and regularly, leading other members to accommodate such actions. Children sometimes grow up in such families with the understanding that such an arrangement is normal. Dysfunctional families are primarily a result of co-dependent adults, and may also be affected by addictions, such as substance abuse (alcohol, drugs, etc.), or sometimes an untreated mental illness.[1]
I'm arguing against that notion. It's not about Cloti lacking or having more chemistry, or Clerith working out better. It's just that Cloti is far from a dysfunctional relationship.

And you should not use the dysfunctional relationship argument to prove that they're less canon.




o
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Evidence That Cloud Still Loves Aerith
by Alantie

Life and death. This was the theme behind Final Fantasy VII when it was first released in game format. However, when the game ended, there was much confusion on several sides as to the possibilities for the future, especially when it came to the romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. While some say that death is the end and that their relationship can not progress or continue, the novellas On the Way to a Smile, Maiden Who Travels The Planet, and the movie Advent Children/Complete clearly show that death was not the end of Cloud&#8217;s love towards Aerith, nor the end of their relationship. Death was only the beginning.

At the end of Final Fantasy VII, Cloud expresses a desire to Tifa while hanging off the edge of the cliff, the world coming to an end around them.
......I think I'm beginning to understand.
An answer from the Planet...
The Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there.
~Cloud, Final Fantasy VII
Cloud states that meeting Aerith again in the Promised Land, a land of supreme and utter happiness; is what he truly desires. This desire clearly shows the deep affection Cloud has for Aerith, an intense longing that carries over into Advent Children/Complete, Maiden Who Travels the Planet, and On the Way to a Smile. The deep sorrow that Cloud felt upon the death of Aerith is portrayed in the following passage from Maiden Who Travels the Planet:
She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him.

...

But a cry came through to her.

It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul - It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth.

She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater. There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart.
The pain continued even though she was in the Lifestream.
~Maiden of the Planet
The loss of Aerith was a heavy blow indeed to Cloud, as these passages clearly reveal. His heart is described as almost falling apart with sadness, crying out with a grief that could never be healed, and Aerith is later surprised by the depth of sorrow that Cloud feels over her death. Why would she be so surprised? These are intensely strong words describing Cloud&#8217;s reaction to her loss, words of great sorrow conveying a surprisingly strong reaction for someone who is claimed by some to be simply a friend. Cloud&#8217;s heart is described as cracking, the grief bubbling up from the depths of his soul, and Aerith is able to feel the intensity of his pain. Cloud is not normally one to show his pain, let alone any emotion whatsoever. His reaction to Aerith&#8217;s death is a rare reaction that he shows only for her. Not even his reaction to Zack&#8217;s death was as intense as it was for Aerith, making it obvious that his affections for her is on a completely different level than that of friendship.

In Case of Tifa particularly, it is shown that Cloud is deeply troubled, growing steadily worse as time passes on. It is implied in Advent Children/Complete and also stated in the Reunion Files that the cause of Cloud's depression and withdrawal is his guilt over Aerith&#8217;s death. Not only is he trying to come to terms with this, he is also dealing with an incurable illness, Geostigma. Yet, instead of staying at Seventh Heaven with Tifa and Marlene, Cloud goes to Aerith's Church. There, he finds a child named Denzel that he believes was brought to him by Aerith.
Not long after that, Cloud brought Denzel home with him. Denzel was already unconscious when he was brought into the bar. It was Geostigma. Cloud said the syndromes looked like they just started not long ago. As Tifa nursed Denzel, she thought of how there many children who were also infected with the same disease. There were many facilities setup for children who had lost their parents. Yet, why did Cloud bring Denzel here? Just when Tifa was going to ask him, Cloud muttered something.

"This kid came to my place."
"What do you mean?"
"I mean..."
~Case of Tifa
At first, Tifa is clearly uncertain as to Cloud&#8217;s motives in bringing the boy home with him. She remarks that there are many sick children out there infected with Geostigma along with others who have lost their parents, and that there are places set up to take care of them. She does not understand why Denzel is so special to Cloud, why he would bother to bring home this particular boy. Later, Tifa finally asks, and he confesses to her, revealing not only why he brought Denzel, but also where he has been staying recently.
"Hey, do you remember what you said when you brought Denzel here?"
"What did I say?"
"You said Denzel came to your place."
"Well..." Cloud looked like a kid that about to be scolded as usual.
"Tell me. I'll decide whether I'm angry or not after I listen."
Cloud nodded and continued.

"Denzel had collapsed in front of the church where Aerith used to be. That's why I thought Aerith lead him to "my place"".
Saying all that in one breathe, Cloud looked away.
"You went to the church."
"I wasn't planning to hide there."
"You were hiding."
"I'm sorry."
"I didn't say you couldn't go. But next time, I'll go together with you."
"I understand."
"And you're wrong, Cloud."
Cloud looked dubiously at Tifa.
"Aerith didn't bring Denzel to you."
"Yeah, that's what I thought too."
"Aerith brought that child to us, didn't she?"

Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled. It had that kindness that made her think everything was all right. Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if the smile she saw was just an illusion.
~Case of Tifa
This passage reveals that Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him. Of all the children on the streets of Midgar, he rescued Denzel, believing that Aerith had somehow guided the child to where he was staying. It is also shown at this time that Cloud has actually been living in Aerith&#8217;s church, where he encountered Denzel. This brings up an interesting question. Why leave his home with Tifa and Marlene while he is sick, to live in an old church that is falling apart around him? The answer is quite obvious- because he feels closer to Aerith there. It&#8217;s a place that offers him good memories, comfort and the reassurance of her presence in his time of sickness and grief. The fact that he chose to live there instead of with his friends in Edge shows clearly that he craves a way to feel closer to Aerith.

At the same time, there is one place that Cloud cannot bear to go. The Forgotten City, or the City of the Ancients, where Aerith died.
During their holiday, Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud's office. There were many papers that laid scattered about unsorted. One of them caught Tifa's eye.

Client Name - Elmyra Gainsborough
Delivery Item - Bouquet
Destination - The Forgotten City

Tifa put the paper away with the others as if nothing happened. But she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant Cloud was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again.

It was night and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking wine even though he rarely does. He drained his glass. Tifa hesitated before going over and filling his glass.

"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
"I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room."
~ Case of Tifa
Going to the place where Aerith died was extremely hard on Cloud, so much so that Tifa notices that something is wrong. Yet when she approaches him to try and talk about it, he shuts her out and refuses to let her in to share his private pain. In contrast, in Advent Children/Complete, we see that Cloud goes to the place where his best friend Zack died without any trouble whatsoever, an indicator that Aerith&#8217;s death is much harder for him to deal with than that of a close friend who died to protect him. If his grief over Zack&#8217;s death is equal to that of Aerith&#8217;s, then why is Cloud able to visit Zack&#8217;s grave, but not Aerith&#8217;s? If Zack&#8217;s death caused the same amount of pain and guilt that hers did, why then is Cloud able to go to the very spot where Zack took his last breath, but finds it so painful to go to the Forgotten City? This is yet another indicator of Aerith being something much more than a friend in Cloud&#8217;s mind.

In another part of Advent Children/Complete, Cloud learns that Denzel and Marlene have been taken by Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz to their base at the Forgotten City, and he immediately balks at going, trying to get the Turks to go in his place. However, they refuse, and Reno tells Cloud that he should go. As Cloud drives to the city, his eyes are shown to be very bright, almost teary, as if he is struggling with the pain of returning there. In a later shot of the Forgotten City, a wolf symbolizing Cloud&#8217;s remorse and pain is shown standing on the bank of the lake where Cloud laid Aerith to rest.
The Forgotten City is tied to Aerith throughout the film. Here, Cloud is constantly reminded of her no matter how painful it is for him. ~Nojima, pg. 9, Reunion Files
Cloud finds himself lost in emotion, as he races his motorcycle to the enemy's base. ~pg. 111, Reunion Files
I think part of the reason we decided to have Kadaj's base in the Forgotten City is because it's the one place that Cloud avoids. But at the same time perhaps he's drawn to it. There's a sort of hidden meaning to the maternal essence of Aerith that lingers there. ~Nojima, pg. 29, Reunion Files
When Cloud regains consciousness, Reno and Rude tell him about the orphans being abducted, and that they had been taken to Kadaj's base, in the 'Forgotten City'. Upon hearing this, Cloud hesitates, because of the association with Aerith's death. ~pg. 111, Reunion Files
Another thing ignored by many CloudxTifa supporters is Aerith&#8217;s presence in a scene which they often claim to portray romance between Cloud and Tifa. Tifa has been beaten unconscious by Loz and Cloud happens upon her only to succumb to a fit due to his Geostigma. The two are shown lying amongst Aerith&#8217;s flowers in the Church, surrounded by white light while a wolf looks on. However, what people don&#8217;t realize is this is the first time that Aerith actually makes her presence known in the movie as she heals Cloud and Tifa&#8217;s wounds. The white light around them only appears when Aerith is present. In addition, the song Water plays, and a water droplet is seen. Water is another indicator of Aerith&#8217;s presence, as the creators themselves have said.
"...Aerith has a sort of 'watery' image about her, so we used water to convey her presence".

"There's some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear,' says Nojima. 'There's a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here, and their wounds are healed....&#8221;~Reunion Files
So a scene that was thought to be all about Cloud and Tifa is actually the first time Aerith makes herself known through the white light and the water imagery.

Some argue that during Advent Children/Complete Cloud&#8217;s guilt, grief, and desire for forgiveness are not due solely to Aerith&#8217;s death and that Zack&#8217;s death and his failure to protect Tifa during the Nibelheim incident also contributed to it. However, this is proven false in the Reunion Files:
The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself. ~Nojima, Reunion Files
Cloud&#8217;s desire for forgiveness is focused on Aerith alone, not his best friend who died to save him, nor for Tifa&#8217;s injury. Never does Cloud ask Zack for forgiveness, having been the reason that his friend died. There is never any indicator that Cloud tortures himself over Zack&#8217;s death the way he does over Aerith&#8217;s, that he believes that it is a sin to him. Again, if Zack&#8217;s loss was of equal pain and cause for equal suffering and guilt for Cloud, why does he never ask Zack for his forgiveness, but he asks it from Aerith?

The only times Cloud speaks of his desire to be forgiven are to Aerith, and later to Vincent, who also believed he sinned in failing to save his love, Lucrecia. This is an important because in many ways, Vincent&#8217;s story is a parallel to Cloud&#8217;s. Just as Cloud believes he is responsible for Aerith&#8217;s death, that he let her die, Vincent feels the same way about Lucreica, a woman scientist he fell in love with when he was a young Turk. As Cloud was a bodyguard for Aerith, so was Vincent for Lucrecia. Cloud is portrayed as awkward, withdrawn, and antisocial, much the same way as Vincent. Aerith and Lucrecia are both cheerful, upbeat, playful extroverts who enjoy gently teasing the men who protect them and are also similar in appearance with their long brown hair styled the same way. And sadly, both Vincent and Cloud were unable to protect their women from a horrible fate, believing that it is their sin. Lucrecia&#8217;s spirit reaches out to Vincent in DoC much the way that Aerith does for Cloud in Advent Children/Complete, both trying to help them find forgiveness. Thus, when Cloud speaks with Vincent about sin, it is significant for Vincent carries the same burden that Cloud does: the death of a woman he loved very much without being able to save her.

In return, the only one who offers Cloud forgiveness is Aerith, though she tells him she never blamed him at all. More than wanting to be forgiven by his friend Zack and even more than wanting forgiveness from Tifa, whom many believe he loves, it is Aerith&#8217;s forgiveness that Cloud desires most. It is only from her that he asks for forgiveness; never is Cloud shown expressing or asking for anyone else to forgive him. It is only speaking with Aerith that Cloud begins to change. When he arrives at the battle with Bahamut Sin, he remarks to Tifa that he &#8216;feels lighter. Like he lost some weight.&#8217; It&#8217;s after learning that Aerith never blamed him that he begins to change, asking for her forgiveness that lifts the burden from his soul.

An important thing to keep in mind regarding Cloud is that he does not speak his feelings out loud very well. As the creators have said in the Reunion Files, Cloud speaks instead through his expressions, mostly through his eyes.
When animating Cloud&#8217;s expressions, we thought he should speak with his eyes instead of his mouth most of the time. Unlike more expressive characters such as Reno, Cloud will usually keep a stiff upper lip. ~Nojima, Reunion Files
This being said, it&#8217;s important to pay attention to Cloud&#8217;s expression and eyes during the movie. During the scene with Tifa back at Seventh Heaven, he does not look at her when she speaks at him, his gaze downcast or away for most of the scene, or standing with his back to her. Even during the Bahamut Sin battle, when Cloud speaks to Tifa, his back is to her and in the hand tossing scene where all of the group help give Cloud a boost they come face to face, but Cloud&#8217;s expression is not shown. However, in contrast, Cloud&#8217;s eyes and expression are focused on quite a bit when he&#8217;s with Aerith or in her presence. His eyes are no longer hidden behind his hair and when they are standing back to back, he actually tries to turn to look at her. During the Bahamut fight when Cloud is speeding up through the air, Aerith appears to give Cloud the final boost he needs, reaching out for his hand in a direct parallel to the ending of Final Fantasy VII where Cloud reaches out to her. Unlike the first time though, this time their hands are able to touch at last.
This time, Cloud had separated from his body and was now in an absentminded state but, in the abyss of the Mako world, he saw a hand there to guide him. It was white and delicate - it reminded him of the hand that gave him a flower in Midgar. Unconsciously, he stretched out his hand...
His conscious returned to his body. Tifa&#8217;s hand grasped his as the ground below him collapsed away.
If the hand hadn't been there to guide him then he would have been at the bottom of Hades right now. It was good timing. Cloud realized that he had been saved. ~Maiden of the Planet
"The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. It was Tetsuya (Nomura)'s idea...." ~Nojima, Reunion Files
In this scene Cloud&#8217;s expression goes from one of sheer determination and focus on the battle to one of stunned awe as he sees Aerith&#8217;s face for the first time in two years. His eyes grow wide, and in his right eye Aerith is reflected as she comes down from the sky to help him.

Later on as Cloud chases Kadaj through the ruins of Midgar, they wind up in Aerith&#8217;s Church where Cloud yet again struggles with his illness. But even as Kadaj prepares to attack him, a spring of water rises out of the ground in a flood of rain, shielding Cloud and causing Kadaj to flee. As the rain falls down, Cloud&#8217;s expression turns once again to wonder as his Geostigma is healed, then Aerith&#8217;s voice calls out, saying, &#8216;let&#8217;s go, Cloud!&#8217; During the scene where the healing rain sent by Aerith rains down on Midgar, Cloud&#8217;s face becomes peaceful and calm, lifting up towards the sky as he relaxes completely. The most notable of Cloud&#8217;s expressions perhaps though is the one at the end of Advent Children/Complete where Aerith is shown at the door of her church and for the first time she turns, allowing the audience to see her face at long last as she smiles at Cloud before returning to the Lifestream. In response, Cloud gives his first real smile in the entire movie, directed completely at her.

Another strong indicator of Cloud&#8217;s feelings is during the battle with Sephiroth when he has Cloud pinned to the wall with his sword, as he says threateningly, &#8220;Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away!&#8221; A series of images flash through Cloud&#8217;s mind, the first being Aerith as he knows her at present as their hands reaching for each other in the Bahamut battle. The next image is of Aerith as she knelt praying on the alter. The third image is of Zack. The forth is Aerith again. Then the fifth image is of Tifa, next Marlene, Denzel after, and then the final one is an image of the three together as they appear in the picture from Cloud&#8217;s desk. Aerith appears first, and then again twice more, suggesting that she is indeed what Cloud cherishes most.

At the end of Advent Children, the special music video Calling features Cloud riding on his motorcycle against real scenery. As the video goes on, Aerith is shown standing without the white light around her in a field of yellow and white flowers, similar to the ones in her church.
"In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live-action world at the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors- yellow and white- are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church..." ~Nomura, Reunion Files
As Cloud continues riding along, Aerith turns and the lyrics say &#8220;the answer is in the wind.&#8221; Cloud&#8217;s journey continues on, and suddenly he is shown speeding through a field of flowers, the same one where Aerith was shown standing in, and the camera follows him no further. The next scene shown is of Cloud&#8217;s desk back at Seventh Heaven, where there is a new picture of the entire gang together, and yellow flowers resting on the desk in front. Scattered all over the desk and on the wall behind are several pictures of the flower field, hinting that Cloud has been spending quite a bit of time there. Comparing this music video to Cloud&#8217;s desire at the end of Final Fantasy VII, it seems that Cloud has indeed found a way to meet Aerith again.

A similar music video is shown at the end of Advent Children Complete called Safe and Sound. Although Aerith isn't seen standing in the flower field during this video, the same color flowers are shown in the same location as in the Calling video. It's safe to assume that these same flowers are again seen in the Safe and Sound video because they are the color of the flowers in Aerith's Church. The same pictures of the flower field are also still seen on Cloud's desk along with the bouquet of flowers.

This time, the video ends with a picture of the interior of Aerith's Church. It's interesting that the creators chose to end Cloud's story with the interior of Aerith's Church instead of the Seventh Heaven. This can easily imply that the Church is still significant to Cloud, and that he visits there often. The multiple pictures of the flower field on his desk also implies that he spends time there. It's made obvious once again that Aerith remains a part of Cloud's life.
 
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I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
That essay is outdated. Advent Children Complete has a completely different ending sequence now. They show the interior of Aerith's church in the final shot but... Zack's sword is there too. Also, Aerith's flowers are growing on Zack's grave. Is it just me, or is a blond chocobo trying to tell us his shipping preference? :awesome:

You realize that updates negate the older versions. I mean, they took time to remove Aerith from the flowerfield in the updated version. If it was really so important they should've just left her there. It's not like the film is on a time restriction, they could've even added more Aerith scenes if they wanted to. But they didn't. They didn't even bother to re-render the flowerfield Clerith scene (I was disappointed about that one). Instead, they added more Zack scenes (parallel with Aerith's) and more family scenes.

It's like they're trying to tell us something about Zack. :awesome:

Plus, it doesn't really matter if Cloud still loves Aerith. He can still be with Tifa. Why can't he love both? :awesome: Or everyone?

Zack also remains a part of Cloud's life, as shown by the updated sequel. They made a point to UPDATE the freaking sequel just to show us this. It's almost like they're trying to tell us that Zack is as important to Cloud and this is without wearing any shipping goggles on. :monster:
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
That essay is outdated. Advent Children Complete has a completely different ending sequence now. They show the interior of Aerith's church in the final shot but... Zack's sword is there too. Also, Aerith's flowers are growing on Zack's grave. Is it just me, or is a blond chocobo trying to tell us his shipping preference? :awesome:

You realize that updates negate the older versions. I mean, they took time to remove Aerith from the flowerfield in the updated version. If it was really so important they should've just left her there. It's not like the film is on a time restriction, they could've even added more Aerith scenes if they wanted to. But they didn't. They didn't even bother to re-render the flowerfield Clerith scene (I was disappointed about that one). Instead, they added more Zack scenes (parallel with Aerith's) and more family scenes.

It's like they're trying to tell us something about Zack. :awesome:

Plus, it doesn't really matter if Cloud still loves Aerith. He can still be with Tifa. Why can't he love both? :awesome: Or everyone?

Zack also remains a part of Cloud's life, as shown by the updated sequel. They made a point to UPDATE the freaking sequel just to show us this. It's almost like they're trying to tell us that Zack is as important to Cloud and this is without wearing any shipping goggles on. :monster:
You can disagree with the essay, but don't call it 'outdated'. The essay specifically addresses the changes made in ACC. Furthermore, AC/ACC wasn't the primary focus of the essay.

Also, I'd like to mention that SE felt compelled to make "Calling" in the first place. Therefore, I still think it can shed light on Cloud and Aerith's relationship from the eyes of SE.

One of the parts of the essay I really liked was when the author compares Vincent's relationship with Lucrecia to Cloud's relationship with Aerith. A love beyond death is entirely possible in the Final Fantasy universe.

I'd also like to say this again -- if Tidus x Yuna can be considered the canon couple of FFX, Aerith's death should not make Cloud x Aerith any less possible or valid than Cloud x Tifa.

Also, in ACC Aerith still comes to Cloud's mind first when Sephiroth asks what he cherishes most. For most people, their romantic love would come before their friends or family. Obviously, children might trump romantic love but Cloud does not have biological children. Aerith is still the first person Cloud thinks of when Sephiroth asks who he cherishes most. Aerith coming to his mind first suggests to me that Aerith is the person Cloud has the strongest feelings for, and typically romantic feelings are stronger than platonic feelings.

Furthermore, the hand reach scene Cloud has with Aerith is the most romantic physical contact Cloud has with either Aerith or Tifa, IMO. Holding hands is commonly associated with romantic couples and is not something people typically do, aside from little girls playing or parents holding their child's hand when crossing a street (Cloud and Aerith do not fall under either of these categories). Therefore, the only type of category Cloud and Aerith fall under where holding hands is a typical behavior is the romantic kind.

The act of holding hands is an obvious piece of romantic imagery between Cloud and Aerith, especially given the nature of their relationship that has been established throughout FFVII and through SE's quotes. SE would NEVER show Cloud holding hands with any of his male comrades. In addition, Cloud and Tifa do not have any physical contact that is as romantic as Cloud and Aerith holding hands. I maintain that SE showing Cloud and Aerith holding hands is the most obvious piece of romantic imagery we've seen Cloud exhibit between either Aerith or Tifa.

In addition, the fact that SE calls Aerith's forgiveness the "wish of his heart" implies it has something to do with his romantic feelings for Aerith. Cloud wants Aerith's forgiveness more than anything because he agreed to protect her. And the only reason he continued to want to protect her after their initial meeting was because of the romantic feelings he developed for her.

These romantic feelings are firmly established with the simple fact that Cloud AGREES to go on a date with Aerith. A date inherently shows mutual romantic attraction.

Cloud and Aerith's Golden Saucer date is also supported by SE calling Cloud Aerith's "koibito," the "hero wavering between two heroines" quote, and because they refer to Aerith as a "love rival".
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
You can disagree with the essay, but don't call it 'outdated'. The essay specifically addresses the changes made in ACC. Furthermore, AC/ACC wasn't the primary focus of the essay.

Also, I'd like to mention that SE felt compelled to make "Calling" in the first place. Therefore, I still think it can shed light on Cloud and Aerith's relationship from the eyes of SE.

One of the parts of the essay I really liked was when the author compares Vincent's relationship with Lucrecia to Cloud's relationship with Aerith. A love beyond death is entirely possible in the Final Fantasy universe.

VincentXLucretia didn't happen in FFVII or DoC. It wasn't in least bit a successful reciprocated relationship.

I'd also like to say this again -- if Tidus x Yuna can be considered the canon couple of FFX, Aerith's death should not make Cloud x Aerith any less possible or valid than Cloud x Tifa.
FFX-2 was basically came out immediately after FFX and brought Tidus back to life. And Tidus and Yuna actually made out.

Also, in ACC Aerith still comes to Cloud's mind first when Sephiroth asks what he cherishes most. For most people, their romantic love would come before their friends or family. Obviously, children might trump romantic love but Cloud does not have biological children. Aerith is still the first person Cloud thinks of when Sephiroth asks who he cherishes most. Aerith coming to his mind first suggests to me that Aerith is the person Cloud has the strongest feelings for, and typically romantic feelings are stronger than platonic feelings.
First of all, Cloud SPECIFICALLY answers Sephiroth with that Sephiroth doesn't get it at all, that there isn't anyone he doesn't cherish. Saying this person or that person is who Cloud cherises most is defending Sephiroth's point of view in answering the question.

Furthermore, the hand reach scene Cloud has with Aerith is the most romantic physical contact Cloud has with either Aerith or Tifa, IMO. Holding hands is commonly associated with romantic couples and is not something people typically do, aside from little girls playing or parents holding their child's hand when crossing a street (Cloud and Aerith do not fall under either of these categories). Therefore, the only type of category Cloud and Aerith fall under where holding hands is a typical behavior is the romantic kind.

The act of holding hands is an obvious piece of romantic imagery between Cloud and Aerith, especially given the nature of their relationship that has been established throughout FFVII and through SE's quotes. SE would NEVER show Cloud holding hands with any of his male comrades. In addition, Cloud and Tifa do not have any physical contact that is as romantic as Cloud and Aerith holding hands. I maintain that SE showing Cloud and Aerith holding hands is the most obvious piece of romantic imagery we've seen Cloud exhibit between either Aerith or Tifa.
Well that's your opinion I can't do anything about that except point that he held Tifa, Vincent and Barret's hand too. Also Marlene's earlier.



In addition, the fact that SE calls Aerith's forgiveness the "wish of his heart" implies it has something to do with his romantic feelings for Aerith. Cloud wants Aerith's forgiveness more than anything because he agreed to protect her. And the only reason he continued to want to protect her after their initial meeting was because of the romantic feelings he developed for her.

These romantic feelings are firmly established with the simple fact that Cloud AGREES to go on a date with Aerith. A date inherently shows mutual romantic attraction.

Cloud and Aerith's Golden Saucer date is also supported by SE calling Cloud Aerith's "koibito," the "hero wavering between two heroines" quote, and because they refer to Aerith as a "love rival".
Which means that the current Cloud has romantic feelings for both Tifa and Aerith. And then Aerith dies and they never make contact again at all until AC, The Lifestream White makes clear that Aerith ONLY made contact to save the world from Sephiroth.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
What are we doing? Talking about Cloti being dysfunctional, posting old essays, bringing up Phantom of the Opera and do I see Highwind Stuff again?

mayaswell.gif


Sorry I've been waiting to use that gif for a while now
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The fact that Nomura doesn't say anything definitively about their relationship suggests to me that there isn't a definitive answer, otherwise he'd tell us the answer to put an end to the constant barrage of fans inquiring about it.

Where is this constant barrage? If it's as bad are you're making it out to be, you'd think he would make something up or tell Nojima to settle it.

And maybe it has been? Do you have any evidence that he's been asked about it since the fall of 2005?

Blank said:
As I've said before -- the koibito quotes for both pairings suggests to me that both pairings are canon. Therefore, Cloud can have romantic love for either Aerith or Tifa depending how you interpret the compilation.

How would "how you interpret the Compilation" make either quote not exist? You've got to reconcile the presence of both regardless.

Blank said:
None of your examples are indicative of a relationship that is more than a friendship.

Can you honestly tell me you can see scenes like that playing out between Cloud and Barret? Or Cid? Or even Yuffie?

Blank said:
What I'm asking for is an indisputable scene or piece of dialogue that tells me Cloud and Tifa developed a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene takes place.

We have better than that. We have this quote from Nojima:

"First, there&#8217;s the premise that things aren&#8217;t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don&#8217;t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to work it out. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith&#8217;s responsibility is big, I think."

Blank said:
Nothing shown between Cloud and Tifa is even remotely similar to the sort of dialogue or scenes SE has used for other canon Final Fantasy couples.

As you say this, you are aware that this is even more true for Cloud and Aerith, right?

And, actually, dialogue from the morning after Cloud and Tifa spend the night together in the original game is strikingly like that of a similar scene with Fei/Elly in "Xenogears" while one of Tifa's lines while she leans against Cloud is the same as one of Rinoa's lines in FFVIII while she leans against Squall in the cockpit of the Ragnarok.

Blank said:
Furthermore, the hand reach scene Cloud has with Aerith is the most romantic physical contact Cloud has with either Aerith or Tifa, IMO.

Which one? The original hand reach scene where they never made physical contact? Or the one in Advent Children where all of Cloud's friends were giving him a boost?

Blank said:
Holding hands is commonly associated with romantic couples and is not something people typically do, aside from little girls playing or parents holding their child's hand when crossing a street (Cloud and Aerith do not fall under either of these categories). Therefore, the only type of category Cloud and Aerith fall under where holding hands is a typical behavior is the romantic kind.

This argument is about to be really funny in a second.

Blank said:
SE would NEVER show Cloud holding hands with any of his male comrades.

5vIFH85.jpg

BROMANCE or ROMANCE?

YOU BE THE JUDGE.

qXG53nQ.jpg

"Can you feeeeel the looooove toniiiiight?"

2gQ7iyD.jpg

Aerith, you triflin' two-timin' hoe!

Blank said:
Nojima says he's not sure if the kids will be able to help Cloud and Tifa work through their issues.

What's relevant, though, is that he's talking in terms that people discuss troubled romantic relationships in. "Working it out for the sake of the children," etc.

Blank said:
This implies that Cloud and Tifa's issues are almost to the point of no return, because Nojima is not even sure if the kids will be enough to help them work through their issues. So the fact that Nojima isn't even sure if the kids will be enough to help them work through their problems hints that their issues are major and might be permanent.

And that may well be true -- though I find it rather promising that SE said they "reach a commune and return to living together once again," and are still together a year after Advent Children.

Blank said:
The fact that Tifa is an overthinker and insecure is beside the point.

The fact that she's an overthinker and insecure is exactly the point. It's part of their problems, and her insecurities are a reflection of her, not Cloud.

Blank said:
Tifa is repeatedly shown getting jealous over Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Not only is she jealous of Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, but she gets jealous while in her jail cell at Shinra headquarters.

Big deal. Aerith gets jealous of Tifa in Maiden, but neither you nor anyone else who harps on this point ever gives that any weight.

Blank said:
This suggests that Tifa sees what Nojima hints at -- that Cloud's relationship with Aerith would have gone better than the relationship we see between Cloud and Tifa.

Oh, he doesn't hint at anything. He's very up front about the topic, as well as the fact that Cloud and Aerith would have had problems of their own.

Blank said:
AC shows us the result of the problems that began in CoT, which is the slow breakdown of their relationship. Nojima says that even the children might not be enough to fix the issues that have developed between Cloud and Tifa.

Which is quite an odd thing to apply to a relationship without a romantic element, no?

Blank said:
These four characters are enough to suggest to me that SE has repeated this theme of love beyond death. So although these four characters might not be enough to convince you that SE has repeated this theme, my overall point is that Cloud and Aerith are not the only Final Fantasy couple to exhibit the theme of love beyond death.

In none of those cases is there any concept of a persistent, ever-growing relationship.

The only theme I see is one of people moving on from the past. Anna wanted Edward to move on and love another. Rachel wanted Locke to move on and love another. Lucrecia wanted Vincent to get over the past (and Shelke is there, having inherited Lucrecia's feelings for Vincent). Cloud, too, was dragging around the past and Aerith herself encourages him to stop.

Even for Yuna, moving forward was a big part of her journey in X-2. She actually gets Tidus back after she has broken off the shackles of the past and decided her life is going to be a good story anyway.

Blank said:
Therefore, even if you don't view it as a theme, the big-picture point I'm trying to make is that just because Aerith is dead does not completely stop Cloud and Aerith from continuing a relationship together.

Yet Aerith disagrees. In Maiden, she herself acknowledges that she is no longer part of the living world and can't carry on relationships with people in the living world.

This is something else I never see acknowledged by folks making the arguments you're making. Why is this ignored?

There is a natural order to things, and the dead belong to a separate realm than the living. Aerith fought to uphold that order, and she has no intention of perverting it like Sephiroth.

Blank said:
SE states Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.

No such statement exists. The English translation of Nomura's interview from The Distance was inaccurate.

Here is the Japanese text:

&#27515;&#12435;&#12391;&#12418;&#24847;&#35672;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12418;&#12398;&#12364;&#12356;&#12388;&#12414;&#12391;&#12418;&#27531;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12364;AC&#12398;&#26412;&#32232;&#20013;&#12395;&#20309;&#24230;&#12418;&#12456;&#12450;&#12522;&#12473;&#12398;&#23039;&#12434;&#35211;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12435;&#12391;&#12377;&#12369;&#12393;&#12289;&#12381;&#12398;&#24847;&#35672;&#12434;&#12289;&#27515;&#12435;&#12384;&#20154;&#12398;&#21629;&#12434;&#24863;&#12376;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12363;&#12425;&#35211;&#12360;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12363;

&#12381;&#12371;&#12395;&#12381;&#12398;&#24847;&#35672;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12392;&#35328;&#12358;&#12424;&#12426;&#12399;&#12289;&#29983;&#12365;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#20154;&#12398;&#20013;&#12395;&#12381;&#12398;&#24847;&#35672;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12363;&#12425;&#12381;&#12371;&#12395;&#35211;&#12360;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12363;&#12290;

Look at the bolded part. That's "living people" or "those who are living."

There's nothing unique to Cloud and Aerith established here. It simply says that Cloud sees Aerith because the consciousness of the dead remains with those who are living. It's a universal thing, not special to Cloud and Aerith.

And none of it changes that she's in the Lifestream, not Cloud's body -- as Maiden shows us, as Case of the Lifestream White shows us, and as the end of the 10th Anniversary Ultimania's summary of Advent Children tells us.

She's gone, but lives on in those who remain. Cloud among them, yes, but not just Cloud.

Blank said:
(In addition, the way Vincent can see Lucrecia and speak with her in DoC is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC. This suggests Cloud and Aerith's post-death relationship is similar to another post-death relationship found in the Final Fantasy series)

What goes on between Vincent and Lucrecia in Dirge is nothing like what happened in Advent Children. That was Aerith's actual spirit. What Vincent interacts with in Dirge are Lucrecia's fragments -- digital copies of her cerebral data.

There's nothing ongoing between them.

Blank said:
It seems odd to have a bed/cot in an office for no reason.

It wouldn't be for no reason. It's a futon. They're used for sleeping. And there's nothing unusual about finding one in a home office.

What would be weird is a bedroom that lacks privacy (half the door is glass; the bottom half is a large vent), furniture of any sort for someone who has lived in it for the better part of two years, and any reference to it as anything but an office (conversely, there are two references to it as an office).

Blank said:
Also, Tifa refers to the place that has this random bed/cot as a "room".

You don't know this. Have you forgotten the information hito shared with us about a month ago? The word for "room" that Tifa used in that "drink in room" line is the same word used to refer to the living space/apartment of buildings that have one above a place of business.

Cloud was being mopey while drinking down in the customers' space when he refused to talk about what was bothering him. Tifa told him to go drink in the private area if he was going to be like that.

Also, even if she had been referring to a specific room, what room -- and whose -- is not identified. She literally just says "drink in room." Could be anything from "your" to "another" to "our."

But it most likely refers to the private living space.

Blank said:
Cloud agreed to protect her for the price of one date. My interpretation of this is that Cloud felt an instant attraction to this young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious woman.

I don't disagree. Attraction doesn't rise to the level of offering to be her bodyguard because he had feelings for someone whose name he had only just learned, though.

She was hot and alluring. She had a need; he saw an opportunity to get something out of it and seized it.

As he gets to know her, he comes to value her for more than that.

Blank said:
If you can't apply the term "Wish in his heart" to the context of Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship, it appears as though you are in denial about what "Wish in his heart" means as it pertains to the romantic relationship established between Cloud and Aerith.

The "Wish in his heart" was for Aerith to forgive him so he could be freed from his guilt. I can't believe I have to explain how the term "heart" is very romantic and implies love, ESPECIALLY when you consider the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

I can't believe I have to explain to you that this is Japanese, not English. You're applying English idiomatic expectations to another language that has a different origin and evolved differently.

Romance doesn't have nearly the monopoly on the word "heart" in Japanese as it does in English. The kokoro (i.e. the heart) is considered "the seat of emotions," and not just for romantic love. Remember the "engraved in" idiom that refers to something someone will never forget? It's not a romantic expression.

However, if you want to play that game -- the kanji used for "heart" in the "wish in his heart" quote is "mune" (the "mune" is where the kokoro resides, and the two are used interchangably). "Mune" is the same word used in the "engraved in" quote related to Tifa.

So, yeah, insist on "mune" being inherently romantic if you'd like. Be my guest.
 
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Selphie Tilmitt

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Maidenofwar
Mmm. Kokoro is the one used for the DoC Aerith quote right? Also if I remember right "kare" which can mean boyfriend is also used there. Kanojo which can mean girlfriend is also used in Dismantled.

Also bit confused, isn't "Mune" also the one used for Tifa's engraved in mind quote (the promise)? Or did I remember wrong and it was engraved in heart? :monster: Either way if it can be taking romantically for Tifa I suppose it can be taken romantically for Aerith :arr:

Eh, just rambling :monster:
 

Lex

Administrator
I'm going to have to re-read Case of Tifa, but don't they sleep next to each other in that? Doesn't that kind of make the whole "the office is a bedroom is an office is a bedroom" thing irrelevant anyway?
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
I'm going to have to re-read Case of Tifa, but don't they sleep next to each other in that? Doesn't that kind of make the whole "the office is a bedroom is an office is a bedroom" thing irrelevant anyway?
It's ambiguous, the argument goes that Tifa slept with Marlene pre-family and when angry out Cloud she yells at him to sleep at "your" room. There's also a bed in his office so it's probable that it's his room.

The counterargument is that the "sleep in your room" doesn't actually have a "your" or anything else that suggests its Cloud's room, Tifa asks Cloud "do you love me" when he's asleep so unless her creeping into his room and Edward Cullening him is a frequent occurrence- it suggests she sleeps with him, and the bed is actually a bare minimum cot and Tifa wouldn't let his room be like that.

tbh I actually find the "they don't sleep together" argument more compelling. It's more straightforward in evidence. (my computer is crawling at the speed of slow so I'll get back to debating in a bit)
 

Kittie

General Eccentric
AKA
The Iron Witch
What are we doing? Talking about Cloti being dysfunctional, posting old essays, bringing up Phantom of the Opera and do I see Highwind Stuff again?
Sorry I've been waiting to use that gif for a while now
Oh, you know it, Que! This debate has become an actual mystery tour; no one knows where it&#8217;s headed next. We might as well just enjoy the ride!:excited:

I'm going to have to re-read Case of Tifa, but don't they sleep next to each other in that? Doesn't that kind of make the whole "the office is a bedroom is an office is a bedroom" thing irrelevant anyway?
I really need to reread Case of Tifa, as well; because the last time I thought about the whole bedside conversation, I tried to imagine Cloud sleeping on the cot. And it&#8217;s just as what Splintered pointed out: Tifa would either have to be hovering over him, like some kind of a creepy female version of Edward Cullen, or would have to be kneeling by his side. Either scenario really seems to defy the laws of physics in my head, especially when Tifa mentions the hypothetical situation of her staying by his side all night, waiting for an answer that she knows won&#8217;t come with the dawn. It really doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense if that conversation took place with him sleeping on that cot, especially since there&#8217;s no room for Tifa to join him. I think we can pretty much derive that they&#8217;re sharing a bed at this point. It&#8217;s a very intimate scene/conversation.

But even more, I can&#8217;t believe the whole &#8220;cherish&#8221; thing and its sequence of important people to Cloud is still being debated. Well&#8230;actually, yes, I can. So, I finally sat down and watched that scene between Cloud and Sephiroth again, and it reinforced what I&#8217;d already gathered from it from before. Now, for those who argue that everything in ACC is figurative and symbolic and everyone must interpret the beauty of Japanese metaphor, I&#8217;m so going to apply that same kind of logic here:

1.) There are two scenes dedicated to Aerith: one where she is praying for Holy, right before she&#8217;s killed by Sephiroth. And then her hand reach scene with Cloud in the present.

2.) Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. (In that order.) All three receive one screenshot each. They are also still part of the living world, so no tragic death scene for them. :(

3.) Two scenes are also dedicated to Zack: one where he is smiling at Cloud and discussing their friendship, right before he&#8217;s killed by a legion of Grunt soldiers. And then it jumps to the present, where Zack encourages Cloud from the Lifestream.

Does anyone see a pattern here? Why do the dead have two scenes each? We know for a fact that Cloud was traumatized by both Zack and Aerith&#8217;s deaths. Yes, he thinks of Aerith first, but let&#8217;s keep in mind who asked him that question about cherishing things and how that aforementioned person played a part in Aerith&#8217;s death. Yes. Logically that&#8217;s going to jump to the forefront of Cloud&#8217;s thoughts. You come face-to-face with the man who&#8217;s killed someone dear to you&#8212;and right in front of you, no less&#8212;what would one of your initial thoughts be, when asked that question? The image of that person&#8217;s death. Naturally. And then Cloud remembers Aerith encouraging him&#8212;which Zack also does in this sequence at the end&#8212;but then his next thought is of Tifa. Now, I don&#8217;t know about anyone else, but if he&#8217;s unhappy with Tifa, does it really make sense that she&#8217;s the next person that he&#8217;s going to think about? It would make more sense if he thought about Zack or the children, but he doesn&#8217;t. It&#8217;s stated by SE that Tifa is an important woman to him, so the dysfunctional part of their relationship and all of the arguments claiming that she makes him miserable are thrown out of the window here. He cherishes her. He also cherishes the children.

I think this point may&#8217;ve already been brought up, but it&#8217;s a very valid point nonetheless. The children are actually the heart of my argument. Cloud thinks of Marlene first, and then of Denzel. If we go by the standpoint that Cloud thinks of whom he cherishes most in that order, does that suggest that he favors Marlene over Denzel? If that&#8217;s the case, then I&#8217;m sorry; Cloud is probably one of the biggest douchebags on this side of Gaia. Do you know what that kind of favoritism does to children? It&#8217;s not something you want to see; it really messes children up psychologically. I know someone who went through that personally; and if Cloud is doing that to the children, then Tifa is much better off in finding someone who can be a real dad to them. I know Barret&#8217;s Marlene&#8217;s father, but what of Denzel? The kid practically idolizes Cloud, and for Cloud to think any less of him than he does of Marlene, what does that suggest? Talk about that being a dysfunctional relationship. And that&#8217;s between a surrogate father and his son. :\

But getting back to Zack and Aerith, Cloud thinks of their deaths first, and then of his seeing them again after the fact. If I wanted to take it a step further, I could say that his thoughts of them bridge those dear to him who are still living. They&#8217;re still there, but they&#8217;re separate from Cloud&#8217;s family. Talk about symbolic imagery. O_O And while I&#8217;m thinking of it, here&#8217;s a translation about Zack and Aerith from the ACC postcard book:

For Cloud, they were people whom he can never forget. The two irreplaceable people; Zack, &#8220;who was sent to death because protect him&#8221; and Aerith, &#8220;who met a tragic fate as he couldn&#8217;t protect her&#8221; became &#8220;the unforgivable sins&#8221; in his heart.

Cloud has already received the affirmation he needed from Aerith, and then he has his little heart-to-heart with Zack in the Lifestream. He even smiles, albeit faintly. Zack brings out one of Cloud&#8217;s rare smiles. Perhaps we&#8217;re actually looking at the whole cherish thing in reverse. Ever hear of the old adage of saving the best for last? Perhaps we&#8217;ve been wrong about the LTD all along: it&#8217;s Clack all the way! :monster:

Though in all seriousness, Cloud cherishes everyone he thinks of in that scene. He&#8217;s not going to choose one child over the other, and he&#8217;s certainly not going to think of Zack as the least important person in his life. Everyone in that sequence is important to him. That&#8217;s what I took from that scene, anyway. People can argue all day long over whom he loves more, but he isn&#8217;t going to choose Marlene over Denzel, or vice versa, so that argument, going by the rules of logic, is rendered invalid.

On a side note, when Marlene thinks of Aerith during the Cloud/Sephiroth fight, the same screenshot of Aerith praying is used, so if that suggests that there&#8217;s something going on between Cloud and Aerith, then perhaps we should look at this thinking of lost loved ones a bit differently. After all, Marlene says that she lost someone she loved at the beginning of ACC, and then thinks of Aerith during the fight since she senses Aerith&#8217;s presence. Perhaps such goes into the same category as Marlene&#8217;s sins. I don&#8217;t know. But the whole cherish thing shouldn&#8217;t be taken at face value&#8212;not with the children, anyway&#8212;especially since the concept of family played such a huge part in ACC. I also take exception when it comes to the feelings of children, even fictional ones. So, that&#8217;s my two cents on that scene.
 
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