Hawkeye said:
Thanks for not replying to the primary point I made: "And maybe it has been [settled]? Do you have any evidence that he's been asked about it since the fall of 2005?"
That's completely irrelevant because Nomura's quote is addressing the 2 years after Final Fantasy VII ended, not Advent Children. The truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship during the 2 years after FFVII was extremely complicated and unclear. However, by Advent Children, the truth of their relationship becomes clear -- they're completely incompatible together and follow along with Nojima's premise that things
"aren't going well" between them. Maybe the dysfunctional "truth" about their relationship wasn't crystal clear until AC…?
Furthermore, the translation I use for Nomura's quote was given by FlareGamer.com:
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.
Source:
http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1
This translation says Nomura has
"no clue" about the status of their relationship, not that he
"doesn't care". Therefore, the HAHW scene does not unequivocally prove Cloud and Tifa entered a romantic relationship because the status of their relationship after FFVII is unknown by Nomura.
Here are the other two sources I use for my translation:
Source #1
Source #2
Since there is no official translation, we will have to agree to disagree. The point I'm making is that even if we accept your translation, Nomura still doesn't give a definitive answer about the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship because their isn't a definitive answer. Nomura could have easily put an end to the questions he was receiving about their relationship, but since there isn't a definitive answer, he isn't able to give one.
In addition, if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, why does Tifa show jealously toward Cloud's relationship with Aerith? To me, the reason Tifa shows jealously over Cloud's relationship with Aerith is because she doesn't know if Cloud loves her. Tifa has to ask Cloud if he loves her, and he doesn't even give her a response.
One could say Cloud didn't respond to Tifa's question because Cloud had just woken up and didn't hear her. But why would SE include this scene to simply show us that Cloud didn't hear Tifa? This scene was obviously included to tell us that their relationship is in trouble. Unless SE specifically says Cloud didn't hear Tifa, we shouldn't come up with excuses and assumptions for why he may not have heard her. The fact is, Cloud heard Tifa's question and didn't give her a response because he is not sure if he loves her. I know this is a hard fact for Cloti's to swallow, but the obvious conclusion SE knows viewers will draw from this exchange is that both Cloud and Tifa don't know if their feelings for one another are mutual.
Also -- if Cloud didn't hear Tifa, why didn't he ask her to repeat the question?
The bottom line is:
If Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, why doesn't Tifa know if Cloud loves her?
If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, how can anyone be certain that they are in a romantic relationship? Maybe that's the very reason Tifa asked -- she, herself, isn't even sure if they are in a romantic relationship because she doesn't know if Cloud loves her.
If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, how do you know?
Why doesn't Cloud respond to her question? Perhaps he doesn't know if he loves her, either.
This is a huge red flag given to us by SE that tells us Cloud and Tifa are not in a romantic relationship. Either that, or it tells us that their romantic relationship is rapidly falling apart to the point where Cloud isn't sure if he loves Tifa anymore. This could easily mean that even if a romantic relationship existed between them at some point, the relationship has broken down to the point where both Cloud and Tifa don't know if the love between them is mutual.
Nojima's premise that things "aren't going well" between them is highlighted by the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and is further highlighted by the fact that Cloud doesn't answer her question. Both Tifa asking the question, and Cloud's lack of a response, suggests that he doesn't love her -- meaning that whatever feelings he may have expressed to Tifa during the HAHW scene have disappeared by Advent Children, or that the HAHW scene never led to a romantic relationship in the first place (hence why Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship).
Hawkeye said:
Unlike Aerith, I guess?
I'm not arguing that Cloud and Aerith are canon, therefore I'm not held to the same standard of proof that you are. Since you are trying to proclaim that Cloud and Tifa are canon, you have to provide undeniable evidence that they moved from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. Simply expressing mutual feelings does not automatically mean a relationship begins, especially if circumstances such as those shown in CoT and AC prevent it (ie: constant communication problems and disagreements, Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her, Nojima speaking of a premise that things
"aren't going well" between them, and Nomura not knowing the status of their relationship, etc.)
But to answer your question, I would say that SE treats C/A similarly to other Final Fantasy couples. Final Fantasy couples are typically show under a romantic context doing romantic activities together, such as Squall and Rinoa dancing in FFVIII. Since Cloud and Aerith share a romantic date for an extended period of gameplay, I would say that SE treats C/A similarly to other Final Fantasy couples by portraying them together in a romantic context. In addition, it is stated that Cloud and Aerith's promised date "ends magically". Common sense suggests that when a date ends "magically," something extremely *magical* happened. Just as we can make assumptions about what happens when a screen fades to black, we can also make assumptions about what happens when a date ends *magically*
One could say that out of the two versions of the Highwind scene, the HA version is canon. One could also say that out of the four versions of the Golden Saucer date, the C/A date is canon. To me, the C/A Golden Saucer date is equal to the HAHW scene in terms of showing mutual romantic feelings.
Granted, SE specifically says that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings during the Highwind scene. But a date is inherently romantic, there is no need to state the obvious. By Cloud agreeing to go on a romantic date with Aerith shows that he has mutual romantic feelings for her (especially when you consider that Cloud is refereed to as Aerith's "koibito").
To me, the HAHW scene and the C/A date are equal in terms of showing Cloud's romantic feelings for both women.
But I'd like to point something out:
“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
This tells me that the normal/canon outcome is the C/A date. On the contrary, nowhere is it specifically stated that the HAHW scene is the *normal* outcome, nor is it ever stated what type of mutual feelings are expressed during the Highwind scene. In both the HA and LA version, Cloud and Tifa express doubt and hesitation about heading into the final battle, and both come to agree that as long as they have each other they can get through any obstacle together.
So although the HAHW scene is used more often than the LA version, that could simply mean it is being used as a placeholder because obviously one of the two versions has to be chosen. The HA version *IS* more interesting, which is probably why it has been used as a placeholder more often than the LA version, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's canon.
None of the quotes where SE talks about the Highwind scene do they specifically refer to the high affection version, except on the FTOIL page. But the FTOIL page is irrelevant because I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.
The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.
Again -- the C/A date has a quote that says Aerith is the *normal* outcome. Nowhere is it stated that the HAHW scene is the *normal* outcome.
In my honest opinion, the HAHW scene is most likely canon (although the evidence behind it is not as strong as many of you think). But my biggest point during this debate has been that even if the HAHW scene occurred, it did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
Expressing mutual romantic feelings does not necessarily mean a romantic relationship comes after it, especially when we consider that Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship, the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and the premise from Nojima that things
"aren't going well" between them.
No scene after the Highwind scene unequivocally moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers. To me, this suggests that even if the HAHW scene happened, there is no proof that a romantic *relationship* developed from it. And even if one did develop for a brief period of time, it was completely gone by Advent Children when Tifa doesn't even know if Cloud loves her.
If Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa form a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene, how can we be sure that they are in a romantic relationship?
If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene, how can we be sure that Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene?
Hawkeye said:
And SE describes Cloud and Tifa's moments of great confession in identical wording to other canon Final Fantasy couples.
SE has showed other Final Fantasy couples having intimate physical contact with each other that is indisputably romantic. The same cannot be said for Cloud and Tifa.
Hawkeye said:
Were the date alone proof enough of that, it would prove the same with Tifa, Yuffie and Barret, wouldn't it?
Irrelevant. Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret's dates aren't canon.
Hawkeye said:
What you said is that there is no dialogue between them similar to other canon couples. I pointed some out to you. Whatever tangent you've gone off on now has nothing to do with the point we were discussing.
You mentioned two canon couples that have scenes similar to Cloud and Tifa (Fei/Elly and Squall/Rinoa). But you did not provide any specific pieces of dialogue, you simply referenced the scenes. Until you show me the exact pieces of dialogue, I can't make any judgements.
But I will note that the two Cloud x Tifa scenes you chose occur in both the HA and LA Highwind scene. This means that even if Cloud and Tifa's dialogue match the dialogue from other canon couples, we can't be certain that the dialogue is romantic in Cloud and Tifa's case because their dialogue occured in both the HA and LA Highwind scene.
Hawkeye said:
You do recall that both hand reach scenes with Cloud and Aerith were life-and-death situations, yes? One of them being, in fact, the same life-and-death situation where all of his friends gave him a boost?
"The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. It was Tetsuya (Nomura)'s idea...." ~Nojima, Reunion Files
The fact that the hand reach scene in AC is paying homage to the hand reach scene in FFVII makes it very romantic, especially given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship (Cloud is Aerith's "koibito").
The context of their relationship becomes especially clear when we remember all of this: Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, he tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, he reaffirms his commitment to being Aerith's bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, Cloud and Aerith share
two canon dates, the intimate conversation at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction (SE words, not mine) from Cait Sith, and an
"undying" feeling for Aerith that becomes
"engraved in his heart." This is further supported by SE's koibito quote, the quote that says FFVII has a hero that wavers between two love interests, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith (flower field ending in Dissidia, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the ending of Kingdom Hearts in unison with Nomura's quote). When you combine all of these things together (official quotes, in-game moments, cameo appearances, etc.) it becomes clear what SE was trying to do by paying homage to the hand reach scene in AC.
If Nomura thinks the hand reach between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII should be honored and given dedication/respect through a homage in AC, it is clearly different than the times Cloud holds hands with his comrades. The act of holding hands is established by SE as a very special piece of physical imagery between Cloud and Aerith.
To me, the scene itself is touching and bittersweet. Cloud wasn't able to take Aerith's hand in FFVII -- but he was finally able to do so in AC.
I will also note that the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith is similar to other canon couples -- Kairi/Sora in Kingdom Hearts and Snow and Serah in FFXIII.
Hawkeye said:
----
Both were enveloped in mako as they sank into the Planet.
Cloud's second time; Tifa's first experience.
Aerith bet everything on this one chance.
She eagerly turned her attention to Tifa, whose mind was
being overwhelmed in the highly concentrated mako. Aerith
guided her consciousness into Cloud's closed mind.
In truth, she wanted to do it herself. However, Aerith could
not play this role. Therefore, she entrusted it to Tifa. She
entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her
own heart. To the person who would "live" together with
Cloud ...
And Tifa succeeded. Comparing her memories with Cloud's
memories, she looked for those things only the real Cloud
could know. This serving as proof, the closed door was
opened. She released the memories that were firmly locked
up in the bottom of his heart; he didn't get to be a SOLDIER,
but due to an ability from Jenova he had been imbued with,
Cloud, an ordinary soldier, copied the traits of his best friend,
Zack. She restored him to his natural personality rather than
the fake one he had created to maintain his sense of self.
"You did it, Tifa. Thank you ... I'm a bit jealous of you, but
look after Cloud ― and the upper world too, please."
Aerith watched as they returned to the surface with Tifa
pulled up against Cloud, who was back to his senses. She
smiled like an affectionate mother, though.
Aerith isn't jealous of C/T's relationship, she is jealous that Tifa is able to live with Cloud and look after him. Tifa, on the other hand, is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's actual relationship. In fact, Tifa isn't even sure if Cloud loves her and yet they are supposed to be an official romantic couple…? If that doesn't nuke the idea that they are canon, I don't know what does.
The fact is -- Cloud himself doesn't even confirm that he loves Tifa when asked the question. How can you be so sure Cloud loves Tifa if both Tifa and Cloud don't know the answer to this question?
I'd also like to take a moment to expand on Tifa's jealously since it is much different than Aerith's jealously.
Here is a passage from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania outlining Tifa's repeated jealously of her "love rival":
"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith's church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex."
 ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
One of the lines specifically says that Tifa let her "peevish feelings" slip when she saw Cloud and Aerith developing their "own world" together. Why would Tifa be jealous of a world of friendship?
It is clear that Tifa is jealous of the world her "love rival" is forming with the man she loves because the world he is forming with this "love rival" is romantic, which is exactly why Aerith is considered Tifa's love rival in the first place. Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud and Aerith's "world" during Advent Children, probably because she's not sure if Cloud loves her.
Instead of becoming the romantic partner Cloud potentially saw in Tifa during the HAHW scene, he was faced with someone who was constantly nagging him and telling him what he should and should not do. Tifa's nagging behavior (which is a huge turn-off for Cloud, which is why he refuses to talk to her at some points) is confirmed by Nomura when he says Tifa feels a "maternal bond to Cloud".
The behavior Tifa exhibits toward Cloud during CoT and AC is that of a Mother to a child: always telling Cloud what to do, what not to do, nagging him, etc. This behavior is exactly why Nomura confirms Tifa has a
"maternal bond" towards Cloud. We see, with our own eyes, that this maternal bond drove Cloud away because he completely shuts Tifa off at the end of CoT and repeatedly during AC. To me, the real-life manifestations of Tifa's maternal bond toward Cloud drove him away and ruined any possibility of a romantic relationship between them. This is behavior is exactly what causes Tifa to not know if Cloud loves her, and is exactly why Cloud, himself, doesn't give her an answer.
Hawkeye said:
Then you have been misled. I've placed the proof in front of your eyes. The line does not identify Cloud specifically; it identifies 生きている人 -- "living people," "those who are living," "living persons," etc. If you refuse to so much as open a
single damned online translator (those be links; click them), then that is your problem, not mine.
"The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him." ~Nomura; Distance Interview
You can see this quote for yourself if you watch the special features disc for Advent Children.
The way we see Cloud and Aerith connecting in the flower fields, the hand reach scene, Aerith using her Church to bring Denzel to Cloud, and her ability to whisper to Cloud, all suggest that their spiritual connection is stronger than her connection with other people. This is confirmed by Nomura saying that Aerith's consciousness, in particular, lives on inside of Cloud because he is able to see her, "several times throughout the film".
In addition, Aerith also interacts with Cloud physically by boosting him during the battle with Bahamut-Sin:
"Cloud's friends sent him toward Bahamut like a relay race, and as for the last push---Aerith!" ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile
If Cloud and Aerith can interact both physically and spiritually, I see no reason to assume a relationship can't continue between them (especially when we consider that love beyond death is a theme SE has repeated with several FF couples).
Hawkeye said:
pg. 578 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega
----
The people she had been close to, such as her adoptive mother, Elmyra, and the comrades she had journeyed with to save the Planet; as well as the people she knew only a little, and those she may have met in the future, but would now never see ― the truth was that she could no longer associate with "living people."
But she does connect with those who are living despite this quote. Maybe it is an inconsistency from SE? Maybe it means she can no longer associate with living people the same way she did while she was alive?
The fact is -- SE has shown us that Aerith CAN and DOES communicate with the living. Aerith helped Tifa get safely into Cloud's mind using mako, Nomura says Cloud hears Aerith's voice whispering, and Aerith connects with everyone during AC through the use of Great Gospel. We also see Cloud and Aerith connecting spiritually throughout AC.
So my question to you is: does something change in the lifestream after AC that now makes Aerith unable to connect with the living?
The bottom line is: Aerith is able to connect with the living despite this quote. That means that when it says she can no longer "associate" with living people, it probably means she can't associate with living people like she did when she was alive.
I guess a question for SE would be: what do you mean when you say Aerith can't associate with the living even though you specifically show us that she can and does associate with the living?
I'd also like to point this out. It's an excerpt from an essay I was reading the other day:
"Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one." ~Nojima, Reunion Files
So, what is important in this quote? Because there are CloTis who are quite comfortable accepting the fact that Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Sephiroth, but they refuse to accept that Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Aerith. Why? Because, if Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Aerith, despite the fact that she's dead, it makes their "Cloud can't be with Aerith because she's dead" argument null and void.
In the two novellas written by Nojima, Case of Lifestream: White and Case of Lifestream: Black, a glimpse into the Lifestream is given, showing how both Aerith (White) and Sephiroth (Black) influence the world. Sephiroth decides to form remnants of himself from negative Lifestream to do his will on the planet's surface. Aerith wonders if she can do the same, then decides against it, wishing to meet Cloud as he knew her. However, the fact remains- if Sephiroth can use negative Lifestream to manifest remnants of himself, Aerith should be able to use positive Lifestream to physically manifest herself.
If both Aerith and Sephiroth are capable of influencing the world, and they are both capable of talking to Cloud and being seen by Cloud, then why would anyone believe that Cloud is only capable of interacting with Sephiroth, and not Aerith? Clearly, Aerith can produce a physical manifestation, or she would not have been able to boost Cloud upward during his battle with Bahamut-Sin in AC/ACC. This is just one more reason why death means nothing to Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Cloud is fully capable of hearing Aerith, speaking to her, and even touching her. So, what's stopping them from being together?"
Makes a pretty good point, IMO.
Hawkeye said:
What is at issue are the much grander claims you've been making that you need to substantiate: That Cloud and Aerith not only can continue a romantic relationship, but that they do.
Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's Japanese voice actress): "She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film." ~Reunion Files, pg. 58
"Cloud feels an incredible sense of guilt for not being able to save her [Aerith], but sometimes he can still hear her voice in a soft whisper." (Reunion Files, Aerith's profile)
"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files, pg. 58
Cloud: "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid: "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." ~Final Fantasy VII
Aerith also appeared in Cloud's dreams during Final Fantasy VII when she tells him about her plan to stop Sephiroth.
To me, Cloud visiting and living in Aerith's Church, in addition to the spiritual connection shown between them during AC, shows us that they are able to communicate with each other and continue a spiritual relationship. Their relationship is established by SE as being romantic (Cloud is Aerith's koibito, Aerith is one of the heroines Cloud is wavering between, and Aerith is Tifa's "love rival"). Cloud and Aerith also share a romantic date together, in addition to many other romantic moments and cameo appearances.
Vincent, Barret, Dyne, and Elmyra all chose to live with the memory of their loved ones instead of moving on. Maybe Cloud is no different -- especially after he realizes how incompatible him and Tifa are?
And in the same way that Yuna searches and finally finds a way to bring back Tidus in FFX-2, I believe Cloud is continuing to search for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.
During the ending of ACC, the yellow and white flowers on the side of the road are still there during the credits. Nomura stated in the Reunion Files that yellow and white flowers are the colors of the flowers in Aerith's church. SE also states that flowers have "always" represented Aerith.
So although the ending of ACC is not as obvious as the ending of AC, I believe ACC still leaves viewers with the final impression that Cloud is still searching for ways to be with Aerith. SE knows that the credits are the final images viewers see, and since the credits happen after everything that had transpired before it, it is only reasonable to assume that anything new shown in the credits happens AFTER the events that came before it.
Yes, Cloud runs a delivery service. But the flowers on the side of the road continue to represent Aerith according to SE. They didn't show Cloud riding on a road that was surrounded by dirt or grass, they specifically chose to show Cloud riding through flower fields that represent Aerith (according to SE). The same flower fields that we see Cloud and Aerith connecting through during AC. The credits don't leave us with the final impression that Cloud is with Tifa and the children, the final impression we are left with is that Cloud is by himself, riding through flower fields, still searching for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.
But again -- Aerith does interact with Cloud both spiritually and physically during AC. Aerith physically boosts Cloud during the battle with Bahamut-Sin:
"Cloud's friends sent him toward Bahamut like a relay race, and as for the last push---Aerith!" ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile
If Cloud and Aerith can interact both physically and spiritually, I see no reason to assume a relationship can't continue between them (especially when we consider that love beyond death is a theme SE has repeated with several FF couples).
Hawkeye said:
That last part is you editorializing, not what SE actually said.
“The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…"
The quote doesn't say, "the people around him" are his Promised Land. The quote specifically says the "PLACE" where he awakens is his Promised Land. The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church. Period.
Hawkeye said:
It only seems logical to assume the man has an actual bedroom.
No it doesn't. It's not as though this is Cloud's old childhood house. It's not as though Cloud bought this house new. He moved into Seventh Heaven after it had already been established as a residence for other people, which means they are probably making do with the space they have available.
My parents bought a house with 4 bedrooms -- one for them, and 3 for their three children. One of my sisters friends came from a dysfunctional family, and we allowed my sisters friend to come live with us. Do you know what we did? We turned my Dad's office into another bedroom. Honest. To. God.
The fact that SE included a bed in Cloud's personal room, suggests that because he moved into Seventh Heaven long after it had already been a residence for other people, suggests that they were doing the best they could with the space they had available.
There is no reason to assume that Cloud doesn't sleep in the bed that is in the four walls that is considered his own personal space.
Do you honestly think SE provided a random place to sleep in a room that is considered Cloud's for the hell of it?
It makes a lot more sense to assume Cloud sleeps in that bed than to make random assumptions that SE decided to include the bed for a guest, or that they included it for the hell of it.
Until you can confirm that someone else sleeps in that bed, or that Cloud sleeps with Tifa, there is ZERO reason to assume SE included the bed in his personal room for any reason other than the fact that they were giving him a place to sleep in Seventh Heaven.
Hawkeye said:
Attraction and romantic feelings aren't the same thing. I've been on dates with women I was attracted to but didn't have what I would call "romantic feelings" for. I've had sex with many of the same.
Again, he does have romantic feelings for her, but there is zero reason to believe he had any at the time of the agreement.
Not that I know why we're even debating this. But you brought it up and I disagree.
Agreeing to protect Aerith for the price of one date could mean that he was both attracted to her and romantically interested in her at the same time. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. It seems you are arguing over semantics, word choice, AND missing the bigger picture.
This entire discussion started over Cloud's guilt. You claimed that Cloud felt guilty because he failed to protect Aerith. I responded that he only wanted to protect her because of the romantic feelings he had for her, therefore his guilt is completely tied to his romantic feelings for Aerith. Then you said attraction is why he agreed to protect her, not his romantic feelings. But my entire point is that although he initially might have agreed to protect Aerith because he was attracted to her, the reason he continued to want to protect her long after their initial meeting, and the reason he feels guilty for his failure to protect her, is because of the romantic feelings he developed for her after their initial encounter.
Cloud's guilt is tied directly to the romantic feelings he has for Aerith.
Hawkeye said:
It appears you're deciding all on your own what they mean, while selectively ignoring them when the same shit gets used for Tifa. Once again, take "wish in his heart" as romantic if you want, but have you to do the same for "engraved in his heart" with the promise to Tifa. They both use "mune." You can't have one without the other.
I'm not ignoring the same shit that gets used for Tifa at all. I firmly believe that the LTD is up to interpretation. I'm simply sharing my Clerith interpretation.
If you want to view the promise Cloud made Tifa under a romantic lens because it is described as being "engraved in his heart," go for it.
But I will point out that one could argue that the only reason Cloud's promise to Tifa is "engraved in his heart" is because of his childhood crush, and thus has no bearing towards his adults feelings. But I don't mind applying this quote romantically to Cloud and Tifa's relationship because of the confirmed love triangle where Cloud wavers between two heroines.
All I'm doing is applying the terms
"wish in his heart" and
"engraved in his heart" to the context of Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship as it has been established by SE. You are free to apply the same sort of quotes in the same way to Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
The fact is, SE has a "koibito" quote for both pairings. They also have two "engraved in his heart" quotes for both pairings. In addition, C/T has the HAHW scene and C/A has the Golden Saucer date. When you look at all of the evidence for both parings, in conjunction with Nomura's quote where he says SE's work is specifically created to be interpreted differently, it is not hard to see why the LTD is a matter of opinion and interpretation.
But I will say that my Clerith interpretation comes from quotes like these:
"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007
The feelings Aerith's comrades have for her are platonic, while the feelings Cloud has for her are romantic (this is exactly why SE separated Cloud's feelings from her comrades feelings).
Cloud is Aerith's "koibito," therefore he has romantic feelings for her that are different than the platonic feelings her comrades have for her. Period.
EDIT: This is where I get my translation from:
The translation I use is from Saeki of the CxA forums:
Saeki said:
Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day... It's relations with this church scene is... Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination. (Laughs). ~My Translation
Original Japanese one...
野村　
エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします(笑
。]
想い = omoi = feeling
愛情 = aijou = love
Since a lot of the translation from TLS come from Cloti's, there is no shame (IMO) in getting my translation from someone of the CxA forums.
Saeki believes that Nomura is contrasting Cloud's feelings with the feelings of his comrades, which is a fair comparison to make considering Cloud and Aerith's relationship is different from that of her comrades. Cloud is Aerith's "koibito".
------------------------------
Minato Arisato said:
You can have a canon date with anyone in the Golden Saucer.
The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon within the compilation:
A: “#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection
B: “In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
C: “Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix
(If Aerith is able to remember the date, it happened)
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NORG said:
BlankBeat, I'm looking forward to this essay of yours you mentioned. I'm going to debunk the shit out of it.
It's already hard enough to keep up with my debate with Hawkeye, so I have no idea when I'll be able to respond to your "debunking". Also -- I was not writing an essay, I was writing a response.
