The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Miss Aubrey]

Aerith doesn't give Cloud permission to love Tifa,

lol

That’s why she entrusted Tifa with it. She entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her heart. She entrusted them to the one that was going to “live” together with Cloud…

^ Is that close enough to 'permission'? Sincere question here

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also, NORG, if it did, then I'll concede that particular point- even though, like I said, I'd just assumed they were anyways- but do you know where in the 10-2 books it is? And also maybe a scan?

I can field this. It's on pg. 583 of the X-2: International+Last Mission Ultimania.

The relevant text says only “Half a year later”/半年後 and “Wakka and Lulu marry”/ワッカとル―ル―、結&#23130:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffxintpg583.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/wakkalulumarried.png

I spent a lot of time writing this in my response to you, so I'm really curious as to what you think of it:

Alright, I'll give it a bite.

Therefore, it is clear that these two charts are meant to tell us how the relationships began in both FFVII and AC. But because Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC charts, it means that they begin as "childhood friends" in both time periods. But if the HAHW scene made them a romantic couple, they should have been described as "lovers" not "childhood friends" in the AC chart.

If all that is so, DC's chart should still have some sort of description of them, yes? Some indication of where they stand one year after Advent Children, right? It doesn't have anything, though.

And the AC chart in the Prologue book does reflect a different status from FFVII to AC. They're described as "living together," which -- while not inherently romantic -- is still a change. The better question for you to ask is "Why doesn't the 10th AU's AC chart reflect this change?"

Why don't both charts for AC say "childhood friends" if emphasizing that is truly so important to SE?

And -- if these charts are meant to reflect a transition -- why don't the charts for BC, CC and LO say something other than "childhood friends"? Both of them had an established, inarguably canon romantic interest in one another at the time. Why is this not mentioned? Why is it just "childhood friends" even then?

Why does Elena love Tseng on some FFVII charts and not others?

You put too much weight in these charts that were obviously never meant to be scrutinized to this degree.

I also have to disagree that the charts always indicate the characters' beginning relationship to one another. In Cecil and Rosa's case, yes, "favors" is their beginning status. They were already in love with one another; they just hadn't expressed it yet. For them, their beginning status -- but not their ending status -- had a reflection.

You could even make the argument that love from the beginning is true for Celes and Locke from the time of their first meeting in FFVI, though I'm not sure I'd agree with that either. It's not implausible, though.

But in Zidane and Dagger's case? Tidus and Yuna's? They become an "important existence" to one another, sure, but they do not begin that way. Not even close to the beginning.

Likewise, Squall and Rinoa do not begin with "favors" applying to them. She doesn't fall for him until the end of the first disc when he saves her from the Iguions and says "Just stay close to me." Both Rinoa herself and the Ultimanias have pointed out that moment as the moment she fell in love with him.

Squall, for his part, doesn't fall for her until after she's gone into a coma, and he realizes how much he misses her. Up to that point, he was mostly annoyed by her and was opposed to the idea of being her boyfriend. He knew that to be what she wanted and knew their friends were trying to set them up too.

The charts are just utterly inconsistent. Sometimes they point out beginning details (e.g. Cid being cruel to Shera). Sometimes they point out end-game details (e.g. Squall and Rinoa loving one another). Sometimes they do both, such as Steiner and Beatrix being described with "Rivals (later, favors)."

Relying on these charts alone for an understanding of the characters' relationships would make for a clusterfuck of nonsense.

Ok. I'll give you this *ONE* quote.

Well, I call that progress.

But if something is canon it's canon. It doesn't matter how many times SE *mentions* it.

So "Cloud's family" being listed as Denzel, Marlene and Tifa needs how many more times to go before you accept it as being the unit Cloud personally recognizes as his immediate family?

 

[Kittie]

I believe that jazzflower92 and I Am Not Me have already summed up the Barret being/not being part of the Seventh Heaven family argument rather well. I also fail to understand this point, as to how Barret’s presence somehow magically disproves Cloud and Tifa from having a romantic relationship, while it absolutely proves that Cloud and Aerith do. I mean, seriously, where does that come from? (And, yes, I split my infinitives on purpose. I rather enjoy defying grammatical convention. ) But, still, how does his presence prove that Cloud and Tifa aren’t together romantically? Taking a step back from it, it really doesn’t prove anything.

And also…unless I missed something, in the many times I’ve seen ACC, I haven’t seen a single flash of Barret in that collective group of people whom Cloud cherishes most. Really, it doesn’t matter whether Barret’s part of the Seventh Heaven family or not. Truth be told, I can understand Cloud, Tifa, and Barret remaining in close contact with each other, compared to the rest of the group. They were together—alongside Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie—at the beginning of the game. Marlene also links them together. Really, why wouldn’t they be close? Having Barret around doesn’t, in any way, shape, or form, prevent Cloud and Tifa from having a relationship. He isn’t there at Seventh Heaven all the time. He entrusted Marlene in their care. He keeps in close contact with them. And…the big thing…he also accepts the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together, while they’re taking care of Marlene and Denzel—a boy whom Cloud and Tifa both adopted. Denzel also regards Cloud and Tifa as his adoptive parents, not Barret. It’s as simple as that. I’m still trying to understand why this point about Barret is even debated. I feel that this is, decidedly, very much a straw man argument; it really has no substance at all in this debate.

Well…unless someone counts the Barret date. Then, there might actually be something to this argument.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Isn't Squall x Rinoa the only FFVIII couple on the "For The One I Love" page?

EDIT: Cloud is the only hero in any of the love triangles to be pictured on the FTOIL page with both of his love interests in two *canon* scenes of romance.

But it should be of a higher standard because there are TWO love triangles. Therefore the FTOIL page is largely irrelevant.

Just like, you know, how every other evidence is irrelevant to you versus the relationship charts and a picture of a date with a non-romantic caption.











You know the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to put a special standard for the FFVII love triangle with claims that it's not resolved right? Because it is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And gives away what all these come down to: preference. And preference is VERY different from canon.

When you say "It's up to interpretation", and your interpretation is Clerith, then that's ultimately picking a side. You're a shipper, or if you don't wanna use that term, a Clerith supporter. Which is not bad in itself. You go ahead and enjoy your pairing. But, take note, by your own stance of 'no canon', Clerith is a preference, an interpretation, an opinion. It's not truth, and Cloti can co-exist with it.

Hence in that scenario, there will also be nothing to debate, because opinions cannot be debated.

So go ahead and debate to people that there is no canon. You're very much welcome to prove it. But stop debunking the possibility of the other pairing at the same time-- because that spits on the very face of your argument of 'up to interpretation', it makes you shit on yourself.

Overlooked this post until just now, but, yes, this is the crux of what's so frustrating about your posts, BlankBeat. The position you claim to hold is inconsistent with the position you argue in favor of.

You claim that both couplings are equally valid interpretations, but then denounce literally everything in favor of one of the two. You say Cloud loves both women, but then knock down everything that points to him loving one of those two. You say the LTD is only about the question "Who does Cloud love?" and then insist that one coupling isn't canon even as you acknowledge as canon the moment of romantic confession for that couple -- shifting the standard for that couple only to needing proof of an ongoing, ever-developing relationship.

What's truly unfortunate about all the vitriol that has gone your way is that none of it has been necessary. If you only want to prove "Who does Cloud love?" you could have made this much easier and no one would have disagreed with you.

Hell, if you just wanted to prove that Cloud loves Aerith, you could have thrown up the "wavers between two heroines" quote and maybe the Case of the Lifestream White "koibito" quote if you really wanted to. Instead, almost everything you've said hasn't been about building a case for Clerith, which is remarkably simple to do. Your focus has been instead on tearing down Cloti, which is entirely unnecessary -- irrelevant even -- to building up Cloud loving Aerith.

 

[Unlucky]

And unless we fix this bullshit, this will surely go nowhere. Every well-versed, logical, intellectual post will accomplish jackshit until this is fixed.

 

[BlankBeat]

I believe that jazzflower92 and I Am Not Me have already summed up the Barret being/not being part of the Seventh Heaven family argument rather well. I also fail to understand this point, as to how Barret’s presence somehow magically disproves Cloud and Tifa from having a romantic relationship, while it absolutely proves that Cloud and Aerith do.

I never said it proves Cloud and Aerith have a relationship.

What it disproves is this whole idea that there are *two* families, something Hawkeye and others have been a big proponent of.

There is one family that Cloud, Barret and Tifa created *together*. All three of them discuss this in this passage:
“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.” (Cloud)
“What the hell do you mean by that?” (Barret)
“Our normal lives.” (Cloud)
“And where do we have something like that?” (Barret)
“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

Notice how the passage above talks about finding a place for all of them to live together?

Anyway -- *after* establishing a family together at Seventh Heaven, Barret goes on a journey. Barret tells Marlene to keep the *families* strength together [ie: the same family they all talked about creating in the passage above, and the same family that was formed after Barret helped rebuild Seventh Heaven].

Then it says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey":
"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile

Despite Barret leaving for his "journey", it seems that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret finally settled on a place that they could call home after the discussion they had in the first passage. Notice how it says they opened the bar *with* Barret? And remember, Barret helped rebuild Seventh Heaven in order to create this place that they could all call home.

But the point is -- the quote says Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene lived together as a family of three *after* Barret set off on his journey. The quote isn't saying Barret isn't apart of the family, it's simply saying he doesn't live with them anymore because he is on a journey. This quote unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

The reason this is important is because people try to say Cloud and Tifa have their own family because they are a couple, and that Barret has a separate family that also includes Marlene. I guess because it makes sense to them that Marlene belongs to two families?

But the point is, the family at Seventh Heaven *IS* a family of friends that was formed by Cloud, Tifa *AND* Barret. By trying to twist things so they appear as though Cloud and Tifa formed a family separate from Barret is simply done to try and build the case for Cloti. But that is simply a misrepresentation of what actually happened.

In addition, I've heard it said that, "Cloud and Tifa have their own family that they formed together separate from Barret, so of course Cloud doesn't sleep in the bed in his room! Cloud and Tifa formed a family together! They sleep in the same bed!" But realizing that this family encompasses Barret as well, nukes this thought process and supports the idea that Cloud actually does sleep in the bed found in his room.

Excluding Barret is done to imply that Cloud and Tifa are a romantic couple setting out to start a life together because they begin a family with each other and each other only. But that's simply *not* true.

:: I will get to everyone else's responses later. Meeting up with some friends tonight ::

 

[Danseru-kun]

What it disproves is this whole idea that there are *two* families.

There is one family that Cloud, Barret and Tifa created *together*. All three of them discuss this in this passage:
“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.” (Cloud)
“What the hell do you mean by that?” (Barret)
“Our normal lives.” (Cloud)
“And where do we have something like that?” (Barret)
“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

Then, *after* establishing a family together, Barret goes on a journey. Barret tells Marlene to keep the *families* strength together [ie: the same family they all talked about creating in the passage above, and the same family that was formed after rebuilding Seventh Heaven].

How come you insist they formed a family here? Where is the family in this passage? It's just said they want normal lives again and they'll find a way.

Then it says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey":
"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile

Notice how it says they opened the bar *with* Barret?

Establishing a bar=/= making a family

Anyway -- this quote unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

No this proves you ignore the quotes specifically mentioning members of Cloud's family and ignoring the fact that there is no single quote saying Barret is part of Cloud's family.

The reason this is important is because people try to say Cloud and Tifa have their own family because they are a couple, and that Barret has has a separate family with Marlene as well. I guess because it makes sense to them that Marlene belongs to two families?

But the point is, the family at Seventh Heaven *IS* a family of friends that was formed by Cloud, Tifa *AND* Barret. By trying to twist things so they appear as though Cloud and Tifa formed a family separate from Barret is simply done to try and build the case for Cloti. But that is simply a misrepresentation of what actually happened.

You're the one twisting things, you have no quote saying Barret is a part of Cloud's family in any profiles.

Barret has a family, Barret is the father of Marlene, Barret is family with Cloud. But it doesn't mean he's part of Cloud's family. I'm family with my uncle, but he's not part of my nuclear family.

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

-> This is Marlene's offer, not SE's perspective.


“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT


-> It would help not to omit the whole picture.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

See the difference? Barret put Marlene in Cloud and Tifa's care and see how they reacted with the concept of being Marlene's parents.

Excluding Barret is done to imply that Cloud and Tifa are a romantic couple setting out to start a life together because they begin a family with each other and each other only. But that's simply *not* true.

No we're just siding with facts.

You use a much lower standard proving Barret formed Cloud's family (using conversations without a family topic as a proof, and using Marlene's perspective over SE,) then insist on a higher standard in Cloud and Tifa's family (the four of them living "like a family" is just like a family, Cloud's ACC playback quote being inconsistent.

Again why did I spend time with this?

It doesn't hurt Cloti if Barret did establish the family.

 

[Kittie]

I never said it proves Cloud and Aerith have a relationship.

What it disproves is this whole idea that there are *two* families.

There is one family that Cloud, Barret and Tifa created *together*.

Then it says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

The reason this is important is because people try to say Cloud and Tifa have their own family because they are a couple, and that Barret has has a separate family with Marlene as well. I guess because it makes sense to them that Marlene belongs to two families?

But the point is, the family at Seventh Heaven *IS* a family of friends that was formed by Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret. By trying to twist things so they appear as though Cloud and Tifa formed a family separate from Barret is simply done to try and build the case for Cloti. But that is simply a misrepresentation of what actually happened.

I've heard it said that, "Cloud and Tifa have their own family that they formed together separate from Barret so of course Cloud doesn't sleep in the bed in his room! Cloud and Tifa formed a family together!" But realizing that this family encompasses Barret as well, gives support to idea that Cloud actually does sleep in the bed found in his room.

Excluding Barret is done to imply that Cloud and Tifa are a romantic couple setting out to start a life together because they began a family with each other and each other only. But that's simply *not* true.

I will say that I'm glad that you find that this argument about Barret being/not being part of the Seventh Heaven family doesn't prove Cloud having a relationship with Aerith. Thank you for clarifying that.

That being said, however, I still fail to see the importance in proving/disproving Cloud and Tifa being together romantically because of this. While Marlene will always consider Barret as her father, Denzel still considers Cloud and Tifa as his adoptive parents. I believe we need to keep that in mind.

And there's also this:

“The place where he awakens—
That is Cloud’s Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around— ‘she’ is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness… And so they too go back to where they belong.
Back to the current of life flowing around the planet—.”

I am well aware that this quote from SE has been used for this already, but why isn't Barret mentioned, along with Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel if he's truly part of those whom Cloud considers as his family?

And, again, I will stress that Barret wasn't shown in Cloud's little group of people whom he cherishes most. If Barret is part of the Seventh Heaven family, then why isn't he shown alongside Zack, Aerith, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel? I am genuinely curious about this.

^ I would love for the aforementioned above to be addressed. ^

As for the whole bedroom arrangement thing...whether or not Barret is staying at Seventh Heaven, again, doesn't, by any means, disprove whether or not Cloud's sharing a room with Tifa. I daresay too much emphasis has been made over that little cot in Cloud's office.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Kittie, getting BB to address particular points he doesn't want to is like herding cats made of water uphill.

Nearly impossible and what you get will probably make little sense.

For the record, BB, I still would like you to answer those several simple questions you've ignored.

 

[Danseru-kun]

This is not really a proof but my friend enigmaphenomenon noticed another possible smile between Cloud and Tifa

In the airship scene after the battle

Of course you can say he's smiling to his friends, but then Tifa being the focus there kinds tells something.

 

[BlankBeat]

Hell, if you just wanted to prove that Cloud loves Aerith, you could have thrown up the "wavers between two heroines" quote and maybe the Case of the Lifestream White "koibito" quote if you really wanted to. Instead, almost everything you've said hasn't been about building a case for Clerith, which is remarkably simple to do. Your focus has been instead on tearing down Cloti, which is entirely unnecessary -- irrelevant even -- to building up Cloud loving Aerith.

Before I address the actual topic at hand and respond to everyone's posts, I would like to address this.

I *have* spent a lot of my time arguing for reasons why Cloud loves Aerith.
I *have* spent a lot of my time providing evidence from SE that supports Cloud x Aerith.

In fact, one of my biggest pro-Clerith posts was hardly acknowledged or responded to (ie: the one where I included the cameo gifs). I'm sure everyone will come up with excuses for why it was hardly acknowledged, but whatever. The point is, I have spent a lot of my time arguing in favor of CxA.

But the reason I argue against Cloti is not because I don't think it is a valid interpretation, it's because this website claims Cloti is canon. I'm simply pointing out why all of the evidence in favor of CxT does *not* unequivocally show that Cloti is deserving of a *canon* status. The only way I can show that Cloti is not deserving of the *canon* status that this website has given it is by tearing it down. But if Cloti's would not claim Cloud x Tifa is canon, I wouldn't need to tear it down.

Anyway -- I explained why I don't believe SE has held Cloti to the same level as Celes x Locke, another couple that has a love triangle. To me, Celes x Locke have undeniable proof that they are canon, even though there is a love triangle present. The same, however, can't be said for Cloti. I explain why below:

In the absence of a love triangle, there is no need to *compare* evidence because there is only *one* couple. But because love triangles inherently give evidence for two pairings, you have to explain why one couple is more canon than the other couple.

To me, CxA and CxT have equal evidence according to the FTOIL page and the "koibito" quotes. There is nothing that firmly established Cloti as canon according to SE (especially when we look at the relationship charts).

And although Celes x Locke and Celes x Rachel are in a love triangle and both pairings have evidence, I pointed out why Celes x Lock is canon and Celes x Rachel isn't.

Reason #1: Celes x Locke are the *only* FFVI couple on the FTOIL page.
Reason #2: Rachel gives Celes permission to *love* Locke.

Aerith doesn't give Cloud permission to love Tifa, and Cloud is shown in two canon scenes of romance with both of his confirmed love interests on the FTOIL page. Therefore, unlike Celes x Locke, nothing makes Cloti *canon*.

I also listed why AC does *NOT* prove anything about Cloud and Tifa's *romantic* relationship: 1. the relationship charts that describe Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only* 2. Everyone in AVALANCHE is dead (and Barret is away on work), which means there are only two people for Denzel to consider his parents by default — Cloud and Tifa 3. Just because Barret is away on work does not mean he isn’t apart of the Seventh Heaven family. Does a parent who travels for work suddenly become excluded from their family? 4. Cloud and Tifa are living together because of rare and unforeseen circumstances. This does not mean they are in a romantic *relationship*. Just look at Cid and Shera living together during FFVII 5. Barret is included in the Seventh Heaven family when Cloud says they will all find a place to call home *together* 6. Barret tells Marlene to take care of the “family” while he is gone 7. Barret rushes back to defend his “family” when he hears they’ve been attacked 7. Marlene is Barret's daughter. 8. the living arrangement at Seventh Heaven where Cloud has a bed in his own room 9. Nomura’s quote admitting that he doesn’t know the status of Cloud and Tifa’s relatinoship after FFVII ends 10. Tifa admitting she doesn’t know if Cloud loves her

:: I will get to everyone else's responses later ::

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith doesn't give Cloud permission to love Tifa ...

Your version of Aerith sounds like a cunt.

Also, no.

 

[Danseru-kun]

LOL who needs a permission to love

 

[Unlucky]

Cloud, because he's forever the bottom in whatever relationship he's in

 

[Carlie]

I don't understand that logic at all. Why on earth would Cloud need Aerith's permission to love Tifa? And how the hell does that make Cloti any less canon? Wait is Aerith Tifa's mother and Cloud needs her permission to date here daughter? Joking aside do you not realize how badly you're portraying Aerith with that? You that spent a few pages claiming people were assassinating Nomura's character when you have been doing so to both Cloud and Aerith.

Btw BlankBeat you ignored my questions about your interpretation of Cloud's character and here I was very much looking forward to you answers.

 

[Jiro]

I don't want to sound offensive, but sometimes I think about how this thread has 300+ pages and I wonder - why? Does it matter that much? Cloud had potential relationships with both girls. He probably loved both of them. One of them is dead and that is causing some pretty hardcore anguish, but that doesn't mean he doesn't still love the other. He's just emotionally fucking broken; blame Jenova cells and mako poisoning and mind control and the death of a close friend and/or lover.

I don't understand why there must be a one-true pairing, an official this is who was meant to date who. It doesn't work like that in the real world and wouldn't it just be magnificent if Square Enix created a piece of art that mirrored the real world (hint: this is what they have done).

By all means, keep up the debate and discussion because there are so many awesome things that have been noticed because of the devotion, but I just don't get it folks

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't want to sound offensive, but sometimes I think about how this thread has 300+ pages and I wonder - why? Does it matter that much? Cloud had potential relationships with both girls. He probably loved both of them. One of them is dead and that is causing some pretty hardcore anguish, but that doesn't mean he doesn't still love the other. He's just emotionally fucking broken; blame Jenova cells and mako poisoning and mind control and the death of a close friend and/or lover.

I don't understand why there must be a one-true pairing, an official this is who was meant to date who. It doesn't work like that in the real world and wouldn't it just be magnificent if Square Enix created a piece of art that mirrored the real world (hint: this is what they have done).

By all means, keep up the debate and discussion because there are so many awesome things that have been noticed because of the devotion, but I just don't get it folks

In many ways, the point IS defending that piece of art that mirrors the real world, because many alternate theories and character versions, such as Clerith!Cloud and Clerith!Aerith are essentially turned into utter dickholes due to the consequences of those versions.

A prime example is BB's odd version of reality where Cloud and Tifa need Aerith's permission to progress in their relationship, but a better example is Clerith!Cloud is essentially using Tifa, stringing her along while chasing after a dead woman. Tifa likewise becomes a human doormat, and Aerith herself in many character interpretations becomes a mix of all powerful AND entirely powerless and a bitch to boot in several more.

In many ways, it's to try and preserve the characters and the narrative and the subtler meanings of the story that I argue.

Seriously, a lot of other games I like have Love Triangle or more questions, some that honestly, will probably never be answered, but the alternate outcomes don't negatively impact any of those characters. Fire Emblem is an excellent example.

FE7 is a canon prequel to FE6. That means you play as the parents of a lot of people in FE6. You also get to decide who marries who in FE7. While there are some VERY vague clues as two who a few of your canon parents might end up with, for the most part, it's a crapshoot. But Nino getting with Jaffar or not doesn't really ruin her character, same as it doesn't ruin Lyn or Florina's character if one, the other, or neither of them winds up marrying Hector. Or if Lyn winds up marrying Eliwood or Rath instead.

Sadly, it doesn't quite work the same in FF7, because we have a rather detailed time of the 2 year gap between OG and AC. as opposed to the very loose and roughly detailed 20 year gap between FE7 and FE6. We know what Cloud was doing and what other people think of him, much of what he thinks, too. People suggesting things that contradict these things, or turn Cloud into an ass hat just for a ship is quite a problem for the narrative itself, in many ways especially because of how little focus is given to the subject of romance throughout FF7 and its compilation.

 

[BlankBeat]

First, I have some honest questions:

Does anyone honestly think it is not at all strange that SE told us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed between the FFVII and AC charts, but did not do the same for Cloud and Tifa?

Does anyone honestly think that if SE *officially* believes that Cloud and Tifa are *canon* by the time of AC, that they would use the same description for both the FFVII chart and AC chart (ie: "childhood friends")?

SE had the *perfect* opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC. Yet, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts. That, my friend, tells us a lot about SE and what their beliefs are (especially because they highlighted how Cloud and Aeith's relationship changed with the two charts)

Why would SE neglect the *canon* couples relationship transformation when they had the *perfect* opportunity to show this transformation?

......it just doesn't make sense............

--------------------

If all that is so, DC's chart should still have some sort of description of them, yes? Some indication of where they stand one year after Advent Children, right? It doesn't have anything, though.

What specifically changed between AC and DC that should be highlighted in Cloud and Tifa's relationship chart?

And remember, I'm asking about their one-on-one relationship *only*.

Why don't both charts for AC say "childhood friends" if emphasizing that is truly so important to SE?

Cloud and Tifa are listed as "childhood friends" in four charts. That's a pretty big emphasis on being "childhood friends", especially when one of the charts is referring to AC specifically, which is *after* the HAHW scene.

And -- if these charts are meant to reflect a transition -- why don't the charts for BC, CC and LO say something other than "childhood friends"? Both of them had an established, inarguably canon romantic interest in one another at the time. Why is this not mentioned? Why is it just "childhood friends" even then?

If a relationship began as "childhood friends" and never moved beyond a friendship, why would there be a change in the relationship description?

Why does Elena love Tseng on some FFVII charts and not others?

Do the charts reflect different time periods...?

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" *consistently* in four charts when referring to their one-on-one relationship.

Applying an inconsistency about another couple to Cloud and Tifa is irrelevant. You have to explain how the inconsistency argument applies to each individual pairing. You can't simply dismiss official relationship charts simply because they are sometimes inconsistent. If the charts aren't directly inconsistent for Cloud and Tifa's relationship, they are still relevant for the LTD.

You put too much weight in these charts that were obviously never meant to be scrutinized to this degree.

You are simply trying to dismiss official evidence that does not support Cloti.

I also have to disagree that the charts always indicate the characters' beginning relationship to one another. In Cecil and Rosa's case, yes, "favors" is their beginning status. They were already in love with one another; they just hadn't expressed it yet. For them, their beginning status -- but not their ending status -- had a reflection.

1. I said the charts *typically* indicate the two characters relationship began.

For example, the FFVII chart tells us Cloud is Aerith's bodyguard. Then in the AC chart it tell us Cloud feels guilt for Aerith. We all know Cloud evolves beyond Aerith's bodyguard in FFVII, and we all know Cloud's guilt is removed by the end of AC. The point is -- the charts described the relationship Cloud had with Aerith based on how it began during the respective time periods, not how it ended up.

Using common sense and Cloud x Aerith as an example, it would seem that SE would also show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship *began* in both FFVII and AC. If Cloud and Tifa became romantic lovers after the HAHW scene, they should have been described as "lovers" in the AC chart. However, they are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC charts.

SE had the *perfect* opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC. Yet, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts. That, my friend, tells us a lot about SE and what their beliefs are (especially because they highlighted how Cloud and Aeith's relationship changed with the two charts)

Why would SE neglect the *canon* couples relationship transformation when they had the *perfect* opportunity to show this transformation?

2. I'm unclear what you are saying about Cecil and Rosa. Could you explain it a different way?

But in Zidane and Dagger's case? Tidus and Yuna's? They become an "important existence" to one another, sure, but they do not begin that way. Not even close to the beginning.

Do these couples have favor arrows? I'm genuinely curious.

Likewise, Squall and Rinoa do not begin with "favors" applying to them. She doesn't fall for him until the end of the first disc when he saves her from the Iguions and says "Just stay close to me." Both Rinoa herself and the Ultimanias have pointed out that moment as the moment she fell in love with him.

I'm not talking about "favor" arrows. I'm talking about descriptions. These are two separate things.

To me, it seems likely that the description would indicate the beginning of a relationship, but that the favor arrows would also indicate mutual romance if present (side-note: Cloud and Tifa, the *canon* couple, have a total of *ZERO* favor arrows. Very, very, very...very...very strange)

Just because a chart describes the beginning of a relationship doesn't mean the favor arrows have to be describing the beginning of the relationship as well. They are two separate things that are telling us two separate things.

To put it another way, the charts are saying that this couple *began* here, but might have fallen in love depending on the presence or absence of favor arrows.

Why are you trying to compare two different things?

The charts are just utterly inconsistent. Sometimes they point out beginning details (e.g. Cid being cruel to Shera). Sometimes they point out end-game details (e.g. Squall and Rinoa loving one another). Sometimes they do both, such as Steiner and Beatrix being described with "Rivals (later, favors)."

1. Was Cid listed as being cruel to Shera in a chart about FFVII *only* or a chart about the FFVII compilation? This makes a huge difference because Cid *was* mean to Shera in FFVII, but gets married to her after FFVII ends.

2. What is Squall and Rinoa's description? I understand they have favor arrows, but that's completely separate from the description.

Relationship descriptions =/= favor arrows.
FFVII chart =/= FFVII compilation chart.

The bottom line is: just because the relationship charts have inconsistencies does not mean they are inconsistent for *every* couple. You have to explain how the inconsistency argument applies *directly* to Cloud and Tifa because the fact is, SE has been very consistent when describing their relationship in particular (ie: "childhood friends" in *four* relationship charts).

And the fact that Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart, when that would have been the perfect opportunity for SE to tell us that Cloud and Tifa evolved from friends to lovers, raises a H-U-G-E red flag.

--------------------

Both of these posts are intentionally misrepresenting what I said:

Your version of Aerith sounds like a cunt.

Also, no.

A prime example is BB's odd version of reality where Cloud and Tifa need Aerith's permission to progress in their relationship

I did not say that Cloud and Tifa *need* Aerith's permission. I said that *if* she had given Cloud permission to *love* Tifa, it would be clear evidence from SE that Cloud and Tifa are the *canon* couple.

Obviously Cloud and Tifa don't need Aerith's permission, but I was specifically comparing it to Celes x Locke.

Rachel tells Celes to move on and love Locke. That is clear evidence from SE that Celes x Locke are more canon than Celes x Rachel.

The other huge piece of canon proof that Celes x Locke have is that they are the *only* FFVI couple pictured on the "For The One I L-O-V-E" page. Cloud, however, is pictured on the "For The One I L-O-V-E" page with his two love interests in two canon scenes of romance.

Therefore, neither CxA or CxT have the clear-cut proof that Celes x Locke have. This means that although the love triangle for FFVI is solved, the love triangle for FFVII isn't.

--------------------

How come you insist they formed a family here? Where is the family in this passage? It's just said they want normal lives again and they'll find a way.

Cloud, Barret and Tifa are *talking* about forming a family together and discussing where their next home will be.

Cloud says, "let's go home" [that means everyone he's talking to]
Barret says, Where to?"
Cloud says, "our suspended reality"
Barret says, "what the hell do you mean by that?"
Cloud says, "our normal lives"
Barret says, "and where do *we* have something like that?"
Cloud says, "we'll find one" and then look at Tifa and says, "right?"

[Cloud is talking to Barret when he says, "we'll find one" and then looks at Tifa and says, "right?". This means Cloud is including both of them when he says, "We'll find one". It's not hard to comprehend that they are having a group discussion about finding a place to live *together*]

Then Marlene [who is Barret's daughter] says, “Yeah!”
Then Tifa nods and, "just like Barret, she wondered where *they* had a normal life."
["they" meaning Cloud, Tifa, Barret and Marlene]

How can you not understand that they are talking to each other about starting a new life *together*?

How do you not understand that they are talking about finding a place to call home *together*?

And if it wasn't already unequivocally clear that was what they were discussing, the next passage *CONFIRMS* that is what they were talking about: "After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar."

So the first passage I included talks about Cloud, Barret and Tifa finding a place to call home together. Then the second passage says that after Cloud looked at various locations with Tifa *AND* Barret, they settled on Seventh Heaven. Tifa then opened up the "Seventh Heaven" bar. This means all of them finally found a place to call home together -- the very thing they were all discussing in the first passage.

Then the next part of the second passage says, "Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile"

This means that although Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family that he helped form and create, he is not technically *living* with Cloud, Tifa and Marlene anymore because he is going on a "journey". Notice how it says Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene began *living* together as a family of three *after* Barret set off on his journey?

Therefore, all the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel *living* together are irrelevant. Barret doesn't live with them because he is on a journey, but that doesn't mean he isn't part of their family that he helped establish, create, and build. Period.

No this proves you ignore the quotes specifically mentioning members of Cloud's family and ignoring the fact that there is no single quote saying Barret is part of Cloud's family.

There is only *one* quote that excludes Barret from Cloud's family. But that quote completely ignores what is stated in the narrative.

Also -- I personally believe that quote specifies Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel because those were the family members living with Cloud at the Seventh Heaven who needed him the most, yet, were abandoned.

The bottom line is:
Multiple quotes calling them a *family* + narrative > one quote

PS: the quote you use as proof is describing a scene where Marlene is *holding* Barret's hand. Plus, if Marlene is Barret's daughter and she invites Cloud into *her* family, that means Cloud and Barret are in the same family.

This is Marlene's offer, not SE's perspective.

But SE included this dialogue for a reason. The same applies to Cait Sith's *wedding* prediction for Cloud x Aerith. Why would SE include a *wedding* prediction in the game if not to convey to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith are to be viewed romantically?

You can't always look at things so literally. You have to look at SE's intent.

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”~CoT


-> It would help not to omit the whole picture.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”~CoT

The full context actually doesn't change the meaning.

What Barret is saying to Marlene is to keep the family that he helped establish *together* while he is gone.

This implies that because he is leaving, the family will not be whole, which is why Marlene needs to help keep it together.

After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

This doesn't say what *type* of relationship Cloud and Tifa have between them. And obviously they are going to have some sort of relationship by virtue of being the only two adults that live at Seventh Heaven. Luckily, Coud has a separate room with a bed in it to escape from Tifa.

And living together doesn't mean a *romantic* relationship. Cid and Shera lived together but weren't in a romantic relationship during FFVII. However, Cid and Shera eventually get *married* -- something Cloud and Tifa never do.

Living together =/= romantic relationship.
Marriage = romantic relationship

It doesn't hurt Cloti if Barret did establish the family.

Yes it does.

The way it is presented by Cloti's is that Cloud and Tifa started a family together that does not include Barret. Obviously this helps build the case for Cloud and Tifa because why else would two people start a family together if they weren't romantically involved?

The *obvious* insinuation is that if Cloud and Tifa started a family together by themselves, they must therefore be in a romantic relationship. That is the obvious insinuation that is being pushed by Cloti's when they try to say that Cloud and Tifa started a family together without Barret.

But the fact is, Barret *IS* apart of their family. He helped create it and his daughter is apart of it.

The bottom line is: Cloud and Tifa did *not* start a family together by themselves, they started it with Barret and Barret's daughter, Marlene.

--------------------

That being said, however, I still fail to see the importance in proving/disproving Cloud and Tifa being together romantically because of this. While Marlene will always consider Barret as her father, Denzel still considers Cloud and Tifa as his adoptive parents. I believe we need to keep that in mind.

1. Cloti's are trying to give off the impression that, "Cloud and Tifa are obviously in a romantic relationship because they formed a family together and are raising children together, therefore they are in a romantic relationship because that's what romantic couples do!"

Essentially, by removing Barret from the Seventh Heaven family, it helps build up the idea that Cloti is canon because it gives off the impression that Cloud x Tifa are similar to a married couple raising children. But this ignores Barret's participation in forming and creating the family, and it also ignores his role as Marlene's father.

2. Everyone in AVALANCHE is dead (and Barret is away on a journey), which means there are only two people for Denzel to consider his parents by default — Cloud and Tifa.

And, again, I will stress that Barret wasn't shown in Cloud's little group of people whom he cherishes most. If Barret is part of the Seventh Heaven family, then why isn't he shown alongside Zack, Aerith, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel? I am genuinely curious about this.

^ I would love for the aforementioned above to be addressed. ^

Just because Cloud's one-on-one relationship with Barret isn't as close as Cloud's one-on-one relationship with Tifa, Aerith, and the *children*, doesn't really mean anything, IMO. This quote is talking about who is important to Cloud, not who is in his family.

Furthermore, this quote mentions Aerith, who is not apart of the Seventh Heaven family. This means that this quote is simply telling us who is important to Cloud, not who is apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

The fact is, one of the people mentioned is Marlene. Marlene is *Barret's* daughter. And again -- it makes complete sense that Cloud's most important people would be his two love rivals Aerith and Tifa, in addition to the *children*

As for the whole bedroom arrangement thing...whether or not Barret is staying at Seventh Heaven, again, doesn't, by any means, disprove whether or not Cloud's sharing a room with Tifa. I daresay too much emphasis has been made over that little cot in Cloud's office.

Relevant questions regarding Cloud's bed:
1. Given the circumstances of Midgar at that time, it doesn't surprise me that Cloud doesn't have a properly furnished room. But the lack of other furniture is irrelevant and beside the point.

2. How does a lack of furniture prevent someone from sleeping in a bed?

3. Who else sleeps in that bed if not Cloud?

4. Did SE really include a "guest bed" for the hell of it?

5. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it is only reasonable to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Does anyone honestly think it is not at all strange that SE told us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed between the FFVII and AC charts, but did not do the same for Cloud and Tifa?

What was the relationship change exactly? That he felt guilty about her death? That it went from 'bodyguard' to 'feels guilt for'?

Last I recall, which you also repeatedly say, one chart is about FFVII, and the other is about AC. So he obviously don't have any guilt for Aerith in the FFVII chart because she wasn't dead yet. They even still had Jessie having favor for Cloud there, iirc. In AC, she's dead, so Cloud obviously can't be a bodyguard for someone who's dead. And he was obviously guilty about her death according to the narrative. In AC.

You're the only who finds this strange because you nitpick everything about Cloud and Tifa. We don't nitpick either Clerith or Cloti, so we don't see what you see. Also, we don't rely solely on relationship charts to make our arguments.

I find it laughable that you're still relying on the charts that really do nothing for anything due to being completely inconsistent. How about we concern ourselves with the narrative instead of supplementary materials? Because according to the narrative, Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends. Until they die THEY WILL BE CHILDHOOD FRIENDS.

How many times have this been repeated? Let's spell it out again for you, okay?

You will always be childhood friends with your childhood friend because that's what you two are CHILDHOOD FRIENDS. Even if you hook up with them and get married to them YOU WILL REMAIN CHILDHOOD FRIENDS.

It's a friendship that starts from childhood. Childhood friendship. Hence, childhood friends. Cloud and Tifa being childhood friends don't negate the feelings they communicated or any relationship they have in the future. Lovers, best friends, divorced, separated, widowed--they will always be childhood friends. NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT.





Didn't get that? I'll make the font bigger and a different color then. Bolded and italicized too.



You will always be childhood friends with your childhood friend because that's what you two are: CHILDHOOD FRIENDS. Even if you hook up with them and get married to them YOU WILL REMAIN CHILDHOOD FRIENDS.

It's a friendship that starts from childhood. Childhood friendship. Hence, childhood friends. Cloud and Tifa being childhood friends don't negate the feelings they communicated or any relationship they have in the future. Lovers, best friends, divorced, separated, widowed--they will always be childhood friends. NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT.





So yeah, we don't find it weird that Cloud and Aerith's "relationship" changed between two charts while Cloud and Tifa remained childhood friends. Because we have a firm grasp on the reality that childhood friends will remain childhood friends regardless.

 

[BlankBeat]

Last I recall, which you also repeatedly say, one chart is about FFVII, and the other is about AC. So he obviously don't have any guilt for Aerith in the FFVII chart because she wasn't dead yet.

Exactly. That's my point.

The two charts highlight an evolution in Cloud and Aerith's relationship, but no evolution occurs for Cloud and Tifa.

I do not disagree that Cloud and Tifa can be described as "childhood friends" but also be *more* than "childhood friends". So you did not need to make your font size so big in your previous post because I've already addressed this point several times now. But I'll try to explain it again.

Just because you can be described as "childhood friends" and also be *more* than childhood friends at the same time doesn't explain why when given the opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC, SE used the exact same relationship description of "childhood friends".

So again, I do not have a problem with the description itself, but the lack of *CHANGE* between the descriptions found on the two charts. SE had the *perfect* opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC. Yet, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts.

In FFVII, Cloud and Tifa started off as "childhood friends". So that's why they are described as "childhood friends" on the FFVII chart. But the AC chart should say they started off as "lovers" because of the HAHW scene. But the fact is -- SE describes them as "childhood friends" in *BOTH* the FFVII chart and AC chart. This means the HAHW scene did not lead to a romantic relationship.

The reason I know that including the FFVII and AC charts was meant to highlight changes in relationships is because it shows a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Cloud began as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart, but then felt "guilt" for Aerith in the AC chart. That is telling us that a change in their relationship took place between FFVII and AC.

In addition, the all encompassing charts found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania (which are *NOT* separated by FFVII and AC), describe Cloud and Aerith's relationship with "bodyguard" because that was the very beginning of their relationship. In addition, these all encompassing charts also describe Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" because that was the very beginning of their relationship.

But because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania has *two* charts and not a single all encompassing chart like those found in the FFVII Ultimania Omegan and the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania, the description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship should be different for both charts as it is for Cloud and Aerith.

The FFVII chart should tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship began in FFVII, and the AC chart should tell us how their relationship began in AC. This means that if the HAHW scene made them into an official couple, or if they became lovers during CoT, they should *NOT* be described as "childhood friends" in the AC chart. Period.

You're the only who finds this strange because you nitpick everything about Cloud and Tifa. We don't nitpick either Clerith or Cloti, so we don't see what you see. Also, we don't rely solely on relationship charts to make our arguments.

1. I love how I'm called "nitpicky" for examining *official* *relationship* charts to determine an *official* position about a *relationship*

2. The only reason the relationship charts are being downplayed and dismissed is because they discredit Cloti. Although the relationship charts aren't consistent for every couple, they consistently label Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only* (even in the Advent Children chart)

 

[Strangelove]

俺は許されたいと思う ~ i think i want to be forgiven

許す, now that it's been pointed out, can mean to permit or allow someone to do something

ac is actually an extended metaphor for asking the would-be in-laws for your sweetheart's hand in marriage told through the medium of a fantasy action story

denzel represents shotgun marriages, kadaj and co are the annoying guests you're going to have to invite to the wedding but you just KNOW they'll cause trouble

sephiroth is the memories of old loves that still burn but you want to move on from (think of the symbolism of seph stabbing cloud. in the heart i mean). he also represents a rejection of societies' normalised view on marriage, which is what is meant by the 'shining future' he wanted to make; a world without the rigid restraints of 'traditional marriage'

it's all making sense now


~sigh~ i wish i could have a romantic relationship. but sadly i can't get married in my home country yet.

when i look at all those gay couples who stayed together for decades without getting married (to members of the opposite sex of course, as per tradition), i just want to grab them and tell them all those years were meaningless

no one is going to put you on a chart like that

 

[Kittie]

1. Cloti's are trying to give off the impression that, "Cloud and Tifa are obviously in a romantic relationship because they formed a family together and are raising children together, therefore they are in a romantic relationship because that's what romantic couples do!"

Essentially, by removing Barret from the Seventh Heaven family, it helps build up the idea that Cloti is canon because it gives off the impression that Cloud x Tifa are similar to a married couple raising children. But this ignores Barret's participation in forming and creating the family, and it also ignores his role as Marlene's father.

2. Everyone in AVALANCHE is dead (and Barret is away on a journey), which means there are only two people for Denzel to consider his parents by default — Cloud and Tifa.

Your first point with Clotis doing this is/making an argument for, I cannot help but say, is bordering on becoming a hasty generalization. You’re lumping people together as a collective whole to prove a point; and since not everyone views this point as proving Cloud and Tifa as a couple, this arguing of such being the case will render your argument invalid. And for the record, this doesn’t preclude the fact that, yes, they are raising children together. They are. Does this act of parenting prove them as being in a relationship? It doesn’t have to necessarily. The family argument isn’t how I derived Cloud and Tifa as being in a relationship, certainly. It’s not a main point to stand on for proving Cloti, honestly.

As for your second point with Barret being on a journey. He’s been on that journey for two years, and I haven’t seen any evidence that he’s living at Seventh Heaven, post ACC. That’s a long time to be in and out of his daughter’s life. I’m not saying that he’s a bad father; however, he is out of Marlene’s life a lot. And I’m going to bold this, because I’m only surprised that you’re serious: Cloud and Tifa are only the default for being Denzel’s new parents? Are you really being in earnest here? Do you honestly believe that, if Barret were at Seventh Heaven 24/7, then Denzel would regard Barret as his father and not Cloud?

Just because Cloud's one-on-one relationship with Barret isn't as close as Cloud's one-on-one relationship with Tifa, Aerith, and the *children*, doesn't really mean anything, IMO. This quote is talking about who is important to Cloud, not who is in his family.

Furthermore, this quote mentions Aerith, who is not apart of the Seventh Heaven family. This means that this quote is simply telling us who is important to Cloud, not who is apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

The fact is, one of the people mentioned is Marlene. Marlene is *Barret's* daughter. And again -- it makes complete sense that Cloud's most important people would be his two love rivals Aerith and Tifa, in addition to the *children*

I’m glad you conceded the point that Barret isn’t as close to Cloud, as those shown in that list of whom he cherishes most. But he’s still part of the family, right? Zack was Cloud’s friend. Why couldn’t Barret be shown, if he’s part of Cloud’s family and also Cloud’s friend? Oh, and you forgot to mention Zack when you listed the others. And why did you put the children in asterisks? Are you singling them out for a reason? I hope you’re not doing so because they aren’t related by blood or anything. Blood or not, they’re still important to Cloud, as stated by him in The Kids are Alright: A Lateral Biography of the Turks.

As for Cloud’s two love rivals, I’m sure both Aerith and Tifa would love to know that Cloud considers both of them as being important to him. A person can certainly hold a place for more than one person in his heart. So, by your own statement, Cloud loves/cares for both, correct? Thank you for that. I feel the same! ^.^

Relevant questions regarding Cloud's bed:

1. Given the circumstances of Midgar at that time, it doesn't surprise me that Cloud doesn't have a properly furnished room. But the lack of other furniture is irrelevant and beside the point.

2. How does a lack of furniture prevent someone from sleeping in a bed?

3. Who else sleeps in that bed if not Cloud?

4. Did SE really include a "guest bed" for the hell of it?

5. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it is only reasonable to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

For your first point, Seventh Heaven has been finished and furnished at the start of ACC. The children have a nice room, comfortable beds, and, yes, even furniture. There is no reason whatsoever for Cloud not to have the same, if his souped-up monstrosity of a bike he’s in possession of says anything.

Second point, it doesn’t. However, where does he put all of his custom-made clothes? I don’t see him dumping all of his cloudy wolf attire anywhere in that room.

Thirdly, is it mandated by SE that someone has to sleep in that bed? That bed has only one sheet and looks rather uncomfortable. I also took a look at that room again; and the more I look at it, the more I see that it isn’t much of a room. I don’t even see a chair for Cloud’s desk.

Fourth, they could’ve. As I recall, there is a tire, a box, and junk in that room, too. Cloud must really love having those kinds of things in his room. What odd paraphernalia that man collects. I bet, if he could, he’d also keep Fenrir in there.

And fifth, you require evidence of Cloud and Tifa sleeping together to prove them canon? Funny, how I can’t recall any other FF couple displayed in the same fashion. Why must Cloud and Tifa be exception to this? Isn’t that a little too risqué for SE? I recall a similar remark made about them having to tone down the HAHW. Something about a chocobo stable. My point is that there are more ways to establish canon, than simply showing two people in bed together. As this does:

...

The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

...

Why this quote is so often overlooked and disregarded is beyond me. “[They] came realize their feelings for each other” and “[Live] together in AC and DC” indicate that they’re in some kind of a relationship. They are already established as being childhood friends in the game; so, with this quote from Tifa’s profile in the Crisis Core Ultimania, Cloud and Tifa realizing their feelings for each other at the end of FFVII makes it blatantly obvious that their relationship developed into something more than just childhood friends. On an added note, Tifa is also described by SE by not “just” being Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the family they were forming in Edge.

That just in parentheses is important.

That word shows that they’re not just childhood friends; they also have a family together. With/without Barret included in that family, it doesn’t matter—Tifa is still more than Cloud’s childhood friend. The CC Ultmania quote provides the context for that.

 

[BlankBeat]

Other points I'm interested in about the "undying" quote:

1. Where is it said on this website that the quote came out in 2003?

I see 10/24 on the website, but it doesn't give a year, and the "source" at the end of the article is dead.

The website itself was put up in 2004, but it's not clear to me what year the interview is from. If someone could help me find it, that would be very helpful.

2. The reason the year the interview came out is very important is because we are assuming that Nomura *has* to be referring to the Church scene in the TGS trailer because that was the only Church scene the public had access to at the time of his comments.

But whose to say Nomura was referring to a scene that was made public? It never says he is specifically talking about the trailer, ever. That is pure speculation and assumption.

3. Although I'm sure this won't be researched because it could potentially destroy the argument used for why Cloud's "undying" feeling is guilt, but when is the first time SE tells us that Cloud feels "guilty"?

In order to unequivocally say Nomura is referring to guilt, we have to find the first time SE mentions Cloud feeling guilty. The reason for this is because Nomura says at the end of his quote that, "I'll leave this [Cloud's feeling] to everyone's imagination."

If SE had already told us about Cloud's guilt at the time of this interview, there is *nothing* to leave to our imagination. Therefore, it is imperative that we know the exact date of this interview and we know the exact time SE officially mentions Cloud's guilt. I don't expect this to be an easy task, but I'm sure all of you are much more knowledgable than someone who has only been involved in the LTD for 1 year.

4. Why would Nomura be *laughing* at the end of his comment if he was talking about Cloud's guilt? Just doesn't seem right.


But the biggest flaw with this interpretation of the quote is the *undying* part.

And yes, I know of the argument that "undying" does not necessarily mean eternal or forever when talking about vampires/elves.

However, "undying" in terms of an emotion or feeling is *ETERNAL* and *FOREVER*. "Undying" means the feeling will *NEVER* go away. Just like if someone lost a loved one in war and continued to forever have an "undying" love for them.

Trying to compare human emotions to that of fictional creatures is ridiculous. When has an undying *feeling* ever been used to refer to feelings that was *NOT* everlasting?

You guys are simply comparing apples to oranges by trying to say that "undying" fictional creatures can be killed. Well no duh. They are fictional creatures that defy logic. They are also physical creatures, *NOT* feelings.

You don't go around telling someone you have a certain undying feeling for them when you don't, unless you're a liar. The same applies to Nomura. He could have simply said, "Cloud carries his own feeling for Aerith" -- he didn't have to use the phrase "undying feeling" if that's not what he meant.

Again: "undying" creatures =/= "undying" feelings.

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. Sure, you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to an actual living creature does not mean eternal and forever, but when it is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever.

Therefore, it does not make sense that Nomura would be referring to Cloud's guilt as *undying* when the entire point of the movie is to rid Cloud of his guilt.

This is why I believe more research is needed with this quote to really determine what "feeling" Nomura is talking about.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Holy crap missed a ton while I was visiting family Lots to catch up on!

Two things jumped out at me from the last/current page ... Ahhh yes the smiling after the battle smile If I remember right that is the one some peeps see as a smile to Aerith since if I remember right that's where Aerith's Great Gospel rain starts where Cloud is getting drenched (don't remember how heavy it was personally)/soaked/bathed by the rain ... since Cloud has been touched?/sprayed? (IDK)/effected by Aerith's lifestream water mix before earliers in the film and can feel Aerith's presence I guess I can see that why he would/might be smiling at Aerith and/or at her Great Gospel rain, I don't know/see why he wouldn't smile if he knew it was her/her rain ... on the other hand if he knew Tifa was smiling I don't see why it might not be a smile to her, I can see why it would/might be too, so it could be a smile to Aerith, or Tifa or why not both, or indeed all his friends Well there's focus and such I guess but then peeps would/could probably argue Aerith was a main focus there since she was present and active during/after the battle with lifestream white vs lifestream black and lifestream battle Great Gospel mix and flashbacks and whatnots and Tifa smiling/saying Thank You to Aerith's raindrop on the ship and ... and semantics!

Second ... actually never mind about second! Though I think my heart just broke again ?