The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

BlankBeat, I really think your higher standards in case of love triangle argument is both ridiculous, and a form of special pleading. Not only that, but VII's love triangle is the only one you apply these standards to. FFIV has a love triangle, yet you don't seem to have higher standards for Cecil/Rosa(though Cecil/Rosa is married with a kid, so it's kinda hard to deny them), FFIX has a love triangle, yet you don't set higher standards for Zidane/Garnet, etc.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/562386-final-fantasy-x-2/faqs/42601
There's a translation of FFX-2 Ultimania for you Ryu, and as you can see, towards the beginning, right in the timeline of events between FFX and FFX-2, one of said events is Wakka and Lulu marry.

Also, why are Cecil/Rosa, Cid/Sierra, and Wakka/Lulu the only examples of couples who are married and/or have children we're using? There are plenty of other examples we could use, such as Cid Haze/Mrs. Cid from FFIII, Or Dorgan/Stella and Boko/Coco from FFV, or Cid/Edea from FFVIII, or Cid/Hildegarde from FFIX, or Ashe/Rasler from FFXII, etc.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I don't understand that logic at all. Why on earth would Cloud need Aerith's permission to love Tifa? And how the hell does that make Cloti any less canon? Wait is Aerith Tifa's mother and Cloud needs her permission to date here daughter? Joking aside do you not realize how badly you're portraying Aerith with that? You that spent a few pages claiming people were assassinating Nomura's character when you have been doing so to both Cloud and Aerith.

Btw BlankBeat you ignored my questions about your interpretation of Cloud's character and here I was very much looking forward to you answers.

I thought assassinating Cloud and Aerith's characters was part of being a clerith?

 

[Farron]

Congratulations, you actually managed to piss me off. In a thread about fictional pairings.

We are both pissed off in a thread about fictional pairings, welcome to the boat.

Junko has never been called a liar. The closest thing to a personal attack made against her was when NORG called her "ignorant" while using a FFVIII quote. It wasn't very mean, he was half-joking, and it didn't involve anyone else.

Junko and BB are being called dishonest and "that they making up junk " just because they ship Cloud with Aerith. It's rude. How would you feel if somebody said that since you ship Cloti you are being dishonest ? You wouldn't feel extremely happy about it. And yes calling somebody's ship dishonest and ignorant is mean which it's just their preferred FF VII ship with two characters... that are not even real.

People aren't calling BlankBeat dishonest just because they disagree with him.

Lies make baby Jesus cry.

When Hawkeye got angry against BlankBeat for his bad faith arguments, most people asked him to calm down, whether or not they actually agreed with him about BB.

Cool. Alright.

You won't find many people here who dislike Aerith or the idea of a romantic relationship between her and Cloud. True, some of us do not like the idea of an ongoing romance after Aerith's death, but if you think we are trying to prevent anyone else from enjoying it as well, you're wrong.

I have noticed that there is a few Clerith shippers here and even some who like it as a fanon pairing and that's fine. But going " Ooooh look BB Clerith must be canon because of desserts " ! In a mocking tone is just uncalled for.
And since BB showed you all the relationship graph, all you've done is mocked it. " LTD is over, relationship graph loawl " !

It's not funny

I mean has Junko or BB gone " LTD is over, Cloud and Tifa is hinted to have sex underneath the Highwind... NOt loawl " !

No they haven't. They're been really nice to you all and just came in to debate with everybody here. What's wrong with that ??

You claim that everyone should just learn to debate each other's pairing choices in a polite, respectful ways and without trying to use canon as a weapon. I would wholeheartedly agree with you about this. Mixing facts and preferences only leads to stupid situations like ship wars, hatedoms, and greedy IP owners having to cater to both parts of a fractured fanbase.

The thing is... well, you are kind of a huge hypocrite, to put it bluntly.

I understand that I was mad and angry yesterday, but just sitting there and watched BB and Junko be treated unfairly in my eyes just ticked off a bomb.
They came here to debate, a friendly fantasy video game pairing. Not be called liars. Whenever they try and say their thoughts they always get I've noticed " That's nice, but that's not canon, try and agree with the facts "

You guys or most people here might see Cloti as canon, but not everybody does.

[*]Clerith supporters who come in TLS to evangelise for their pairing are unjustly bullied. On the other hand, Cloti supporters should stop "forcing [their] preferred ship down [your] throats". They shouldn't try to argue when people disagree with them about "facts".

That's because the Clerith's here ARE being bullied. Being called liars that they don't speak the facts etc etc etc.

And what they say is "retarded nonsense. "

[*]"Miss Boobs". So much for "respecting what other people ship".

.....

Are you serious right now ? Please don't tell me that you're being serious. Oh my god.

I like to call Tifa " Miss Boobs " because Yuffie calls her " Boobs " if you have her in the lead and don't take Cloud to find her instead during Disc 2.

Plus if I meant that as a insult and I didn't because I like Teefs, it wouldn't be insulting the character not Cloti as a whole.

If you really don't care that much about canon, try to stay away from the big, mean debate about it. Don't get me wrong, this thread is ALSO about shipping preferences, and the two discussions are intrinsically linked. Nonetheless, if you want to post a reply examining why Clerith is your favorite ship, then I definitely think you should.

Okay. I hate the LTD. I love and enjoy FF VII though I believe that the LTD ruins and destroys everything good about the game and the characters. Should we debate about the beautiful metaphors, the beauty of the game, how about the religion and religious metaphors of the game ? The beauty of the game ? How about the message that friends live on through death ? And that Cloud Strife and Zack Fair are both excellent main characters ?

Nope. Let's fight over what woman gets into Cloud's pants instead.

Also I'm not Clerith bud. I don't think I'm anything to be honest. I do like the idea of Cloti and or even Clerith, but I don't take it too seriously or OTP those couples or even anything like Clack. I do have Cloti and Clerith friends though on the net and offline. And whatever they ship, that's cool with them. I just put on my sunshades and let them ship what they ship.

I don't think the answers will be nearly as callous or insulting as you iimagine them to be. There's no reason for you to be bullied because of the things you like. Just... don't interpret the things that are said about canon as either offences against, or justifications for your shipping preferences.

I can understand that some things can be misunderstood what can be seen as a joke " Miss Boobs " I'm sorry if that has offended anybody here, but I do actually like Tifa and even Aerith or Aeris whatever. I'm ignoring the last part because I think that you still believe that I'm a Clerith shipper and I'm not.

My shipping preferences are just let people ship what they ship and down try and bomb the other person's ship down just because "you " don't see it as canon or " thez facts "

 

[I Am Not Me]

My shipping preferences are just let people ship what they ship and down try and bomb the other person's ship down just because "you " don't see it as canon or " thez facts "

Then I find it completely strange that you are defending BB's way of debating. BB downplays Cloti through and through (just read the arguments), and yet this seems to be alright to you. Apparently it's wrong to even believe that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship because of numerous shallow things like Barret's presence or never having hugged on-screen. But this is okay to you, and we're the ones in the wrong.

Again, you people operate on the notion that proving Cloti as canon means we think Cloud could never ever love Aerith. Cloti being canon does not negate Clerith, so your issue about us "bombing" Clerith down is moot because that's not what we're doing. Cloud can love Aerith forever and ever; that doesn't mean he can't love Tifa too. That doesn't mean he can't move on and establish a family with another woman. But BB doesn't agree because Cloud and Tifa, I guess.

Maybe if BB stopped bombing down Cloti we wouldn't have so much of an issue about it? I mean, BB won't even accept it as "interpretation". So why do you have beef with us?

Again, read the arguments and come back. Cloti never wins for BB. Never. So who is bombing whose ship again?



Edit: I'm not saying we're innocent of all 'mean Cloti' sins, but I think our 'meanness' is justified in that BB makes debating with him very annoying. Points have to be repeated again and again, you see the same things said pages after pages. Not everyone is patient.

 

[Farron]

I can't seem to edit the post above, but what I meant by the "liars make baby Jesus cry " bit is I think most of you are calling BB's work and anything pro- Clerith dishonest, is solely because it's Clerith and not Cloti. It's not your preferred ship, so it gets shot down or mocked with a ton of Cookie Monster smilies.

Also it's a slight joke, It's from The Simpsons about season 4 or 5

Also I don't really want to argue about this anymore. I've already said that I despise the the LTD like a kid despises seeing vegetables at dinner time. I was just reading through this thread and got angry and I didn't keep my emotions in and was sort of childish about it, so I'm sorry. Though I do feel like BB and Junko shouldn't be called things like liars when they just want to debate.

Thanks and goodbye.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I can't seem to edit the post above, but what I meant by the "liars make baby Jesus cry " bit is I think most of you are calling BB's work and anything pro- Clerith dishonest, is solely because it's Clerith and not Cloti. It's not your preferred ship, so it gets shot down or mocked with a ton of Cookie Monster smilies.

Did you really even read BB's arguments?

They are all anti-Cloti. I don't even care if BB goes pro-Clerith on all of us, the issue is the anti-Cloti and the fact that you are turning the other way about it even though you said you don't like seeing people's ships get shot down.

Which is it really?

But, okay, bye.

 

[eleamaya]

For BB, you really don't get the point of what AC/ACC want to tell the audience.
I remember you bring the quote from Reunion files so I summary like this:

1. Nomura says the initial script by Nojima was "just a story about Cloud and Tifa and the kids" and that "it didn't have much action." (page 67)
2. [Nojima explains] "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together."
3. "As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, pg. 58

And the ending is shown that Cloud is not feel alone anymore, he moves on and back to the family (the place he's together with Tifa); no matter what most people say he just move on from his guilt or you interpret this guilt is "love"; the fact is CLOUD HAD MOVED ON WITH HIS LIFE. And in revised edition, SE had explained that "she" start to leave, I think that's also linked why they removed her in the credit song.

If you disagree with this, so you think Cloud is still blaming himself of Aerith's death and Aerith keep "haunting" him, you even disagree to the creator. Seriously, I think Clerith relationship is beautiful, I even start to love this pairing after I roleplay Aerith. But you really ruin my mind because the story goes to about a selfish dead-woman who's never willing to let the man she loves to move on paired with a bastard man who leave his family and let his adopted kids suffer just for blaming himself and clinging to the dead woman he loves for the rest of his life. And you call it's a devotion? Hell, it's an unhealthy relationship and worst story SE ever made.

 

[Farron]

Then I find it completely strange that you are defending BB's way of debating. BB downplays Cloti through and through (just read the arguments), and yet this seems to be alright to you. Apparently it's wrong to even believe that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship because of numerous shallow things like Barret's presence or never having hugged on-screen. But this is okay to you, and we're the ones in the wrong.

Because A) He's never been called a liar for his opinion. And of course he's going to downplay Cloti. He is a Clerith afterall. It would be very hard to not downplay Cloti and still try and argue that in your eyes that Clerith was canon and meant to be.

And B) He's never really mocked you for shipping or believing in Cloti or called you all liars or even gone like something " LTD is over guyzz, desserts " !

Again, it's not funny.

No nobody is in the wrong. It just what's been said. I've already said that it you ship Cloti that's cool and everything, just that reading what BB and Junko has been posting and then saying " Okay you are lying, because you don't ship Cloti and Clerith is not the facts " is really rude.

Again, you people

" You people " ? Why does everybody here think that I'm a Clerith shipper ? Because I'm trying to stick up for them ?? Or something else ?

Cloti being canon does not negate Clerith, so your issue about us "bombing" Clerith down is moot because that's not what we're doing. Cloud can love Aerith forever and ever; that doesn't mean he can't love Tifa too. That doesn't mean he can't move on and establish a family with another woman.

Yes it does. Cloti being canon means that Cloud loves Tifa and wants her to be in his life in a romantic and passionate way and manner. Okay, yes Cloud can love both girls but nobody really here seems to really mention or say that. It's all Cloti only, Cloti is fact, Cloti is canon. If you really believed that Cloud loved both Tifa and Aerith wouldn't you be more supportive on the idea that Cloud loves Aerith and Tifa you would be fighting for that ? Rather than Cloti is fact and canon only ?

Doesn't make sense.

Maybe if BB stopped bombing down Cloti we wouldn't have so much of an issue about it? I mean, BB won't even accept it as "interpretation". So why do you have beef with us?

Read above I Am Not Me.

 

[Carlie]

Okay. I hate the LTD. I love and enjoy FF VII though I believe that the LTD ruins and destroys everything good about the game and the characters. Should we debate about the beautiful metaphors, the beauty of the game, how about the religion and religious metaphors of the game ? The beauty of the game ? How about the message that friends live on through death ? And that Cloud Strife and Zack Fair are both excellent main characters ?

Nope. Let's fight over what woman gets into Cloud's pants instead.

Then I suggest you do what new members actually do and check the rest of the forum because shockingly 95% of the content of TLS has zero to do with the LTD and I cannot stress this enough again most of the members of this forum do not give a damn about LTD.

 

[Farron]

Did you really even read BB's arguments?

They are all anti-Cloti. I don't even care if BB goes pro-Clerith on all of us, the issue is the anti-Cloti and the fact that you are turning the other way about it even though you said you don't like seeing people's ships get shot down.

Which is it really?

But, okay, bye.

Again of course BB's arguments are going to be anti-Cloti. He ships Clerith and it would be hard not to throw down Cloti. He has never called you guys liars for shipping Cloti like you have called BB a liar for shipping Clerith.

It's a debate.

And there's a huge, huge, huge difference between " I think that Clerith or Cloti is canon and here's why " and " You ship this and not that, you are a liar and making everybody here furious ".

But if you think that BB has been cold to you and you think that I've missed something, I'm willing to read ANYTHING that you've think that BB has said that was mean in your eyes and even back away and apologize if you are correct.

I'm serious. Anything since now from since BB started debating here.

 

[Strangelove]

Other points I'm interested in about the "undying" quote:

1. Where is it said on this website that the quote came out in 2003?

I see 10/24 on the website, but it doesn't give a year, and the "source" at the end of the article is dead.

The website itself was put up in 2004, but it's not clear to me what year the interview is from. If someone could help me find it, that would be very helpful.

The link at the bottom of the page goes to the publisher's website, although the page is no longer up, if you look at the URL it gives 2003:

http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/jp/p_catalog/magazine/[B]2003/2003[/B]_26464-1_23.html

FFVIIAC Reunion list the date for the magazine as '10/24', which would appear to be this issue (the cover mentioning the KHII and AC features, and the long interview with Nomura):

http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/product/magazine/03003520
http://ebten.jp/p/4910264641030/#

The first site also gives the magazine's code number as '26464-10/24', which also corresponds to the original source's URL.

But whose to say Nomura was referring to a scene that was made public? It never says he is specifically talking about the trailer, ever. That is pure speculation and assumption.

The rest of the text makes reference to the initial presentation and the scenes shown then, and it was more than likely that each of these 'Nomura Check' comments were accompanying an image from the early trailers.

発表会で公開されたムービーではクラウドの声も聞けたぞ。 - In the movie revealed at the presentation, you could also hear Cloud's voice. (This follows on from the other 'undying' quote'.)

エアリスに縁の深い場所をひとり歩くクラウド。何かに気づいたように目を向けた先には・・・。 - Cloud walks alone in a place with deep ties to Aerith. Seemingly noticing something, he turns his gaze towards... (Listed preceding the 'undying' quote.)

回想か、それとも・・・？！炎のなかのセフィロスの微笑み　- A flashback, or something else...?! Sephiroth smiling in the flames

「前にもこのシーンはあったので回想という可能性もありますね。」（野村） - "This scene has appeared before, so it is also possible that this is a flashback." (Nomura)

この銀髪の男は、敵として登場する新キャラです。手にしている武器は2枚刃で、直良がデザインしました。 - This silver-haired character is a new character who appears as an antagonist. The weapon he is holding is a two-bladed sword, which Naora designed.

この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします（笑）。 - As for the relation to this scene in the church.... Hmm. I'll leave you all to use your imaginations for this bit (laughs).

He has specifically said 'this church scene', which means he is referring to something that the reader will know about. Since there is no mention of another, unseen one, it's fair to assume that it's the church scene that was in the early trailers.

4. Why would Nomura be *laughing* at the end of his comment if he was talking about Cloud's guilt? Just doesn't seem right.

What do you think he is laughing about? It's more likely he's laughing at the fact he's leaving people guessing.

 

[Farron]

Then I suggest you do what new members actually do and check the rest of the forum because shockingly 95% of the content of TLS has zero to do with the LTD and I cannot stress this enough again most of the members of this forum do not give a damn about LTD.

I was explaining to you all that A) I came in here emotions first and not thinking right and B) I don't really want to stay here all year and debate in Cloti VS Clerith things.

And that's cool, that's awesome. Thank You for that. I'm happy about it.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Cloud can love two women, hello.

So it's okay for BB to downplay Cloti because he's a Clerith, but we can't downplay Clerith because we're Clotis? Okay.

That's not hypocritical at all.

Also, I read you the first time. Yes, you are not a Clerith, but that doesn't mean you don't think that Cloud can only love one person. Because you do think that, hence being 'you people' who think Cloud can only love one woman ever.

Unfortunately, even though I think Cloud can love Aerith as well as Tifa, that doesn't change what I know as facts. This has nothing to do with what I ship, because I ship both (and then some). I accept Clerith as a valid interpretation, yes, because it is.

I don't see what the problem with this stance is, because I am firm in my belief that Cloti Clack is canon. That is my stand and I fight for it. That doesn't mean we can't see Cloud as loving Aerith as well.

How does that not even make sense? It's simple:

Cloti = canon
Clerith = interpretation

People call BB dishonest because his stand is that everything is up to interpretation yet we don't seem to be allowed to even interpret Cloti with the standards he put up.

If you think I'm bombing Clerith for calling it interpretation (which it is) then what do you call BB's arguments of 'Cloti is not canon'?

But apparently it's okay because it's Cloti being bombed, not Clerith. But hey, you know what else BB bombed in this discussion? Zack's importance to Cloud. But it's okay because it's not Aerith's importance to Cloud being bombed, right?

Okay.

 

[I Am Not Me]

And there's a huge, huge, huge difference between " I think that Clerith or Cloti is canon and here's why " and " You ship this and not that, you are a liar and making everybody here furious ".

AGAIN.

This has nothing to do with BB being Clerith. People can ship whatever they want, we don't care. Maidenofwar ships Clerith and you don't see us calling her dishonest. And you know why? Because she isn't. She doesn't make circular arguments or bomb on other ships. She doesn't debate with double standards or repeat herself all the time to prove a point that was already disproved ages ago. She doesn't raise the standards for the opposing ship all the time when new evidences come to light. She's actually a very, very nice person who uses a cute cat gif a lot.

You know who else ships Clerith here? ME. People must automatically think I'm a liar because I ship Clerith, right? But why don't they? Maybe because I don't use logical fallacies in my arguments. I don't repeat myself more than twice (unless I get really agitated, or if it's about Clack) because I hate doing that, and I am not passive-aggressive (I prefer to be outright aggressive, thanks), nor do I say stuff like 'Clotis don't include Barret because so and so'. Also, maybe, because I argue using facts instead of opinion.

• Fact: Aerith is important to Cloud.

• Fact: Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings. Heck, even BB acknowledges this.

• Fact: Cloud is living with Tifa and raising a family.

• Fact: Marlene has two father figures. (She was the one who said she's a child of Cloud's family too--that must mean she hates Barret now? No. She just has two father figures.)

*you know, an uncle or a family friend can be father figures too, simultaneously with the actual father. I was never answered about why Marlene having two father figures is an insult.
​

• Fact: Cloud is guilty about Aerith's death.

• Fact: Cloud and Tifa are still childhood friends because they never stopped having a childhood.

• Fact: Zack is also important to Cloud.

• Fact: Both Aerith and Tifa have feelings for Cloud, but Cloud was only ever to confirm mutual feelings with Tifa.

• Fact: Cloud wavered between the two heroines. That doesn't mean he can't ever to choose be with one (or both).

• Fact: Aerith is dead, Tifa is alive. Cloud is living with Tifa, and Aerith is shown with Zack in the afterlife.

• Fact: Tifa did not scold Cloud because he's pining after Aerith, she scolded Cloud because he's just sitting there while children are missing.

• Fact: Cloud ran away at the start of AC because he was dying, hopeless, and afraid of losing the happiness he's built up with his new family.

*there's a quote for this, cba to look
​

• Fact: Zack and Aerith had a romantic relationship.

• Fact: There is nothing Cloud doesn't cherish.

Edit: Sorry, I keep updating my facts list. XD

 

[Farron]

@ I Am Not Me

Thanks for explaining everything and clearing everything up. You're really cool.

I'm really sorry for misunderstanding everybody here and if it looked like I was being mean to you all Cloti's here for shipping in Cloti I didn't mean to.

I take everything back and I'm really sorry. Gaaaah I feel so dumb.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Most people who argue for Cloti's canonity doesn't even ship Cloti and I know people who ship Clerith who argues that Cloti is canon.

Seriously what you ship doesn't change the facts in the LTD, even if I make a Cloti fanfic everyday it doesn't change the meaning of the Japanese text or the fact that the HAHW is canon.

Like my tumblr friends know my no.1 OTP is Zerith, and you don't see me arguing that Aerith never loved Cloud and only saw Zack. I accept the fact that Aerith has moved on because that's a fact.

 

[I Am Not Me]

@ I Am Not Me

Thanks for explaining everything and clearing everything up. You're really cool.

I'm really sorry for misunderstanding everybody here and if it looked like I was being mean to you all Cloti's here for shipping in Cloti I didn't mean to.

I take everything back and I'm really sorry. Gaaaah I feel so dumb.

NOW I FEEL BAD FOR BEING AGGRESSIVE.

I'M SORRY TOO.

 

[Farron]

@ I Am Not Me

It's okay

 

[Danseru-kun]

Though I think TLS is not really a "nice" site, I find it amusing that most bad things I heard about it LTD related, we being mean Clotis shoving canon to everyone.

@ Hallelujah, I've been following this thread for a year and there is a reason why people are annoyed at BB, it's not his shipping preference, it's the way he debates which is really, really frustrating

Look at this site Hallelujah. Of around 100+ articles how many are Cloti articles? Just two. One Zerith. One Clerith.

Do you see here essays trying to discredit Clerith? Trying to show that Aerith nags Cloud, doesn't understand him, or how miserable Cloud is with her? Do you see here any thread at all bashing Aerith's character for falling in love with Cloud? Are there posts here calling Aerith a slut because of her skirt slit and comparing her boobs with Tifa? Is there a venting thread here for mean Clotis to complain about Cleriths?

Did you look at the rules? Does it say anything about not being allowed to ship anything besides Cloti? Did you check out the Clerith club and all the pairing clubs that actually lack activity?

Hallelujah you're not the first person who complained about TLS' apparent treatment of Cleriths, which is blown out of proportion. The first one I know that complained and called us all sorts of things ended up apologizing.

Edit: Okay, I may have sounded mean. Sorry.

 

[Sikozu]

In FFVII, Cloud and Tifa started off as "childhood friends". So that's why they are described as "childhood friends" on the FFVII chart. But the AC chart should say they started off as "lovers" because of the HAHW scene. But the fact is -- SE describes them as "childhood friends" in *BOTH* the FFVII chart and AC chart. This means the HAHW scene did not lead to a romantic relationship.

Can we wave goodbye to "it's all up to interpretation" now?

Cloud began as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart, but then felt "guilt" for Aerith in the AC chart. That is telling us that a change in their relationship took place between FFVII and AC.

What relationship? By the charts, in AC Cloud feels absolutely nothing but guilt for Aerith, and Aerith has no feelings whatsoever for Cloud. There's no relationship in that, just a guy beating himself up for being a failure.

The only reason the relationship charts are being downplayed and dismissed is because they discredit Cloti. Although the relationship charts aren't consistent for every couple, they consistently label Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only* (even in the Advent Children chart)

You say the charts offer final word. If they're to be relied on for that, they need to be consistent. Across the board, not just with the pairing you're doing your best to tear down(which, if I remember right, they aren't even that). Because before you can say they prove Cloud and Tifa are stuck as [color=eye-searing red]***ONLY***[/color] childhood friends, you need to first prove that the charts are reliable in general. That's why the inconsistencies are being brought up. They are very, very relevant here.

And:

I want to see Cloud — Marlene’s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge. - 10th Anni Ultimania

Wow, a quote that says Tifa is not only Cloud's childhood friend in Advent Children.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You know, upon reading the rest of the thread up to now, this post was pretty much unnecessary. My apologies for responding to something without knowing where the rest of the conversation had led So I'll just shut up now.

 

[Unlucky]

If anyone has ever forgotten, or doesn't know, the posters in this thread have varying opinions on whether Cloud *romantically* loved Aerith. Others say no, others say yes, others say it's ambiguous.. IIRC, it has been debated several times over the course of this discussion. But nobody is negating that Aerith is important to Cloud, that he cared for and loved her as a friend, and that his guilt over her death reflects how much he meant to her. So it'd be helpful not to mix up "Cloud doesn't have romantic feelings for Aerith/ it doesn't have enough evidence" with 'Clerith bashing/ Cloti bullying'.

If you don't resort to dishonesty and fallacies and flippantly ignoring points you're not in favor of, folks are actually civil and even friendly.

Everyone ships different pairings, some don't even ship anything at all, but when they jump onto this debate, it's understood that what's to be discussed about is the narrative, not their preferences.

Have you ever noticed that people are pissed off because someone is "being DISHONEST", and not "being a CLERITH"..?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I have a couple questions from BlankBeat to respond to yet, but at the moment, I just want to say that the current line of discussion responding to Hallelujah can be dropped. I realize a couple of responses may have been started before he made his most recent posts, but he's apologized and tried to make peace. Let him do so.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I'm sorry, but if someone comes to me with an argument as downright stupid and nonsensical as "matching desserts" and try to pass that as legit srs business, they deserve the mocking, not sorry to say.

There is really no other way to respond to that level of wtf?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

First, I have some honest questions:

Does anyone honestly think it is not at all strange that SE told us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed between the FFVII and AC charts, but did not do the same for Cloud and Tifa?

In all honesty, no. Given what a clusterfuck the charts are in the first place, I don't know why anyone would look to them for detailed illumination.

For that matter, you can't even really call that a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship -- it's a one-way arrow from Cloud to Aerith saying that he blames himself for her death.

And what about Zack and Cloud? What the hell happened there? Why are they "best friends" on all the OG charts and then suddenly "one-time best friends" on the AC chart? Even in the same book?

What kind of "evolution" is that? Zack was already dead when FFVII began. Why wasn't he "one-time best friend" on the OG charts too? How did he get demoted from FFVII to AC when he was already dead before both of them started?

Does anyone honestly think that if SE *officially* believes that Cloud and Tifa are *canon* by the time of AC, that they would use the same description for both the FFVII chart and AC chart (ie: "childhood friends")?

Honestly, yes.

SE had the *perfect* opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC. Yet, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts. That, my friend, tells us a lot about SE and what their beliefs are (especially because they highlighted how Cloud and Aeith's relationship changed with the two charts)

Why would SE neglect the *canon* couples relationship transformation when they had the *perfect* opportunity to show this transformation?

The perfect opportunity is literally everything they've published -- the guide books, the games, the novellas, the movie; all of it.

What specifically changed between AC and DC that should be highlighted in Cloud and Tifa's relationship chart?

I'm looking for you to tell me. Nothing changed across the charts for BC, CC and LO, but that didn't stop them from using the "childhood friends" description each time, did it?

And remember, I'm asking about their one-on-one relationship *only*.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about. Hell, the chart from the AC Prologue book is focused around everyone's relation to Cloud and that does reflect a change. But it's not good enough to count as a transition to you for some reason.

If a relationship began as "childhood friends" and never moved beyond a friendship, why would there be a change in the relationship description?

I don't know, but -- based on what you said right above -- you seem to think that the charts shouldn't all be the same: "What specifically changed between AC and DC that should be highlighted in Cloud and Tifa's relationship chart?"

You said it was unnecesary for the Dirge chart to provide an additional description because nothing changed between Advent and Dirge. Now you're saying that identical descriptions were provided for BC, CC and LO due to the fact nothing had changed.

So, which is it? Do we provide no description at all if there's no change from one title to the next or do we need to identify that lack of change on every chart when there isn't one?

Right now, you're being as inconsistent with your arguments about the charts as the charts themselves.

Why does Elena love Tseng on some FFVII charts and not others?

Do the charts reflect different time periods...?

Only if you're looking at the BC chart from the 10th AU, where she hadn't even met him yet. I'm not referring to that one, though.

The OG charts from the Ultimania Omega, 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character and 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2 all say that she loves him. The OG chart and Advent chart from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania do not mention this, even while her profile from the same book does.

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" *consistently* in four charts when referring to their one-on-one relationship.

"Consistently" suggests that they're always described the same way. They are not. They are "childhood friends" on four charts, "living together" on one and have no description on one other.

Applying an inconsistency about another couple to Cloud and Tifa is irrelevant. You have to explain how the inconsistency argument applies to each individual pairing.

I already have explained it with regard to Cloud and Tifa. Several times.

And, yes, the charts need to be consistently consistent if we're going to assign them any grand importance beyond the stubs they offer.

You can't simply dismiss official relationship charts simply because they are sometimes inconsistent.

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying there's more beyond them. Not once have I said to throw them away. I've only said that they aren't the ultimate in anything. "The buck doesn't stop here" is not the same as "we don't even have to look at this."

I'm saying look at them, acknowledge them for what they are, then move on to the rest of what is available.

If the charts aren't directly inconsistent for Cloud and Tifa's relationship, they are still relevant for the LTD.

They had the potential to be relevant. They aren't, though.

You put too much weight in these charts that were obviously never meant to be scrutinized to this degree.

You are simply trying to dismiss official evidence that does not support Cloti.

Bull. I'm not the one picking up a book that's hundreds of pages thick, looking at a single interrelations chart that's woefully lacking in details, then closing the book, setting it down and saying that I know all I need to know.

1. I said the charts *typically* indicate the two characters relationship began.

So you just decided to assume and demand a standard based on the charts when the charts themselves don't conform to it?

2. I'm unclear what you are saying about Cecil and Rosa. Could you explain it a different way?

Okay, Cecil and Rosa were already in love with each other before FFIV began. Thus, "favors"/"loves" reflects their status at the beginning of the game. Most other FF couples (e.g. Celes and Locke, Squall and Rinoa, Tidus and Yuna, Zidane and Dagger), however, have their end-game status reflected on the charts. One couple (Beatrix and Steiner) even has both their beginning and end-game statuses reflected with "Rivals (later favors)."

Cecil and Rosa's end-game status is that they are married. This isn't mentioned.

The charts are not consistent in their treatment of these couples.

But in Zidane and Dagger's case? Tidus and Yuna's? They become an "important existence" to one another, sure, but they do not begin that way. Not even close to the beginning.

Do these couples have favor arrows? I'm genuinely curious.

As I said, those two have "important existence" to one another, which is usually another euphemism for love. That isn't how they started out, though, just like Squall and Rinoa did not start out with "favors"/"loves" even though that's what their charts say about them.

These are all end-game statuses, except in the cases of Cecil with Rosa and Cloud with Tifa (and arguably Cloud with Aerith).

I'm not talking about "favor" arrows. I'm talking about descriptions. These are two separate things.

How are they two separate things? "Favors" arrows are one type of description used on the charts.

To me, it seems likely that the description would indicate the beginning of a relationship, but that the favor arrows would also indicate mutual romance if present (side-note: Cloud and Tifa, the *canon* couple, have a total of *ZERO* favor arrows. Very, very, very...very...very strange)

Not really, since a couple of those very books we're discussing have a block of prose that says they have held favor for one another for years -- yes, using the identical word that the charts use with Celes & Locke and Squall & Rinoa. Also the same as the word on the arrows running from Tifa and Aerith to Cloud.

Just because a chart describes the beginning of a relationship doesn't mean the favor arrows have to be describing the beginning of the relationship as well. They are two separate things that are telling us two separate things.

To put it another way, the charts are saying that this couple *began* here, but might have fallen in love depending on the presence or absence of favor arrows.

Why are you trying to compare two different things?

Why are you acting like they're two different things?

1. Was Cid listed as being cruel to Shera in a chart about FFVII *only* or a chart about the FFVII compilation? This makes a huge difference because Cid *was* mean to Shera in FFVII, but gets married to her after FFVII ends.

And here we go excusing the inconsistencies for inconsistent reasons again.

Cid and Shera don't have an end-game status reflected, nor do Cecil and Rosa -- unlike five other couples on these charts -- but, hey, the charts are still reliable, right? Right?

Right?

2. What is Squall and Rinoa's description? I understand they have favor arrows, but that's completely separate from the description.

No. It is not. The bi-directional "favors" arrow is their only description on the only two FFVIII charts in existence:

20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character
25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2

Relationship descriptions =/= favor arrows.

I need to borrow one of Squall's facepalms.

The bottom line is: just because the relationship charts have inconsistencies does not mean they are inconsistent for *every* couple. You have to explain how the inconsistency argument applies *directly* to Cloud and Tifa because the fact is, SE has been very consistent when describing their relationship in particular (ie: "childhood friends" in *four* relationship charts).

One final time, just so we're clear:

No, SE has not been consistent with describing them as "childhood friends" on the charts. Also, no, it wouldn't even be necessary to highlight this fact given the insane level of inconsistency these charts already have. They aren't even consistent on individual charts for the same game, much less with each other across multiple charts.

I'm not dismissing them, but I'm not looking to them alone for an understanding of the characters' relationships.

I did not say that Cloud and Tifa *need* Aerith's permission. I said that *if* she had given Cloud permission to *love* Tifa, it would be clear evidence from SE that Cloud and Tifa are the *canon* couple.

Obviously Cloud and Tifa don't need Aerith's permission, but I was specifically comparing it to Celes x Locke.

Sorry we misunderstood you, but I still call bull on this notion. In Maiden, Aerith comes to regard the living world as something she is no longer part of and acknowledges that she can no longer have relationships with the living as she did when she was alive. She then entrusts her feelings for Cloud to Tifa -- "the one who will live with Cloud" -- and tells Tifa to take care of him.

How does this not sound like the sort of blessing Rachel gave to Locke?

Relevant questions regarding Cloud's bed:
1. Given the circumstances of Midgar at that time, it doesn't surprise me that Cloud doesn't have a properly furnished room. But the lack of other furniture is irrelevant and beside the point.

You mean the same circumstances where everybody else in the house has nice furniture and nice bedding, and where Cloud himself has a fancy, customized bike with fancy, customized clothing and jewelry (even a matching cellphone)?

2. How does a lack of furniture prevent someone from sleeping in a bed?

Prevents it from being a private, personal living space. As does half the door being glass and the other half being a vent with widely-spaced slats.

3. Who else sleeps in that bed if not Cloud?

No one has said he doesn't use it. It's when and how much he uses it that are in question.

4. Did SE really include a "guest bed" for the hell of it?

They wouldn't have a guest bed for Barret when he comes to Edge? Where does he sleep? Where did he sleep that first week after Seventh Heaven was opened?

5. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it is only reasonable to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

Officially only called his office. Twice. Not his room. For what I wish would be the last time.



And I am now done discussing those ridiculous charts unless you can say something new about them -- like acknowledging how little sense it makes to base your whole understanding on them at the exclusion of more detailed resources found elsewhere.