The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Y'know, regarding whether or not the LTD is over, it depends on what you consider "over". If it's when one of the pairings is proven canon, then it's been over since '97. If it's when the debates finally end, it isn't over and it will never be over. There will always be people denying cloti being canon. ALWAYS. There are still people who think the earth is flat, despite it having been proven round thousands of years ago. Logic and evidence won't change a thing for some people, and that's a real shame.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Y'know, regarding whether or not the LTD is over, it depends on what you consider "over". If it's when one of the pairings is proven canon, then it's been over since '97. If it's when the debates finally end, it isn't over and it will never be over. There will always be people denying cloti being canon. ALWAYS. There are still people who think the earth is flat, despite it having been proven round thousands of years ago. Logic and evidence won't change a thing for some people, and that's a real shame.

It's done in the same sense the Geocenticism/ flat earth theory is done, or the evolution/ special creation debate is done- All the evidence is in, it clearly points to a conclusion, and people refuse to accept it for emotional reasons.

And I don't care if that cheeses off the creationists on the board. It's true, and I will keep saying it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

On the subject of beds, our living room has a sofa bed where my mother sleeps during busy days. She refuses to sleep in the master's bedroom because she thinks she'll be more comfortable and sleep longer and she cannot do that because there's so much work to do.

Arguably, our living room is wonderfully furnished but just because it has a bed it means it's an actual bedroom or a personal living space. My father as a sound engineer works until morning in his office and there are also many instances he sleeps on this bed in the living room because he has to wake up 3 hours later and can't be too comfortable.

I can say the same cane be said for Cloud. He works up late and comes home irreigularly (like my dad) it would only be practical to have a best you can sleep for a short while on so others won't get disturbed and you can immediately access the phone for delivery. That is definitely his office. Whenever my father really wanted to rest, he turns off his phone else people will disturb his sleep.

And of course, yes it's a fact that many couples don't sleep together and this should not be a standard for a relationship.

 

[Ryushikaze]

On the subject of beds, our living room has a sofa bed where my mother sleeps during busy days. She refuses to sleep in the master's bedroom because she thinks she'll be more comfortable and sleep longer and she cannot do that because there's so much work to do.

Arguably, our living room is wonderfully furnished but just because it has a bed it means it's an actual bedroom or a personal living space. My father as a sound engineer works until morning in his office and there are also many instances he sleeps on this bed in the living room because he has to wake up 3 hours later and can't be too comfortable.

I can say the same cane be said for Cloud. He works up late and comes home irreigularly (like my dad) it would only be practical to have a best you can sleep for a short while on so others won't get disturbed and you can immediately access the phone for delivery. That is definitely his office. Whenever my father really wanted to rest, he turns off his phone else people will disturb his sleep.

And of course, yes it's a fact that many couples don't sleep together and this should not be a standard for a relationship.

While we're on the subject of Beds in Offices, the room my dad uses as an office doubles as my room when I head to my parents' house for a visit. It has a queen sized bed, dressers, even an Amoire and a closet, all things Cloud's office lacks.

For that matter, my home office at my own house is where I keep MY spare bed.

 

[null]

Hi! I'm a story writer and my job is to convey that two protagonists are just close but uninvolved friends. One of them is clearly in love, so to make the non-romance obvious I'll have to address that directly.

Got it! I'll make them cohabitate as father and mother figures! That's definitely the least shitty way to get the point across. These days all the young attractive adults live together in one-sided relationships so my audience will have no trouble at all fathoming the dynamic.

 

[BlankBeat]

Hawkeye --

Here is the problems I see with your criticisms of the relationship charts:

1. Despite all of the inconsistencies, it appears that virtually every canon couple is either given a romantic description at one point, or they are shown with mutual favor arrows at one point. In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows, it seems that in at least one chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

So if anything, the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

As you said, Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a "euphemism for love," according to you. Then, Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows". The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the rule not the exception that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

Additionally, there are more charts for FFVII than any other FF. Funny how even though there are less charts for the other FF's, they almost always show in one of the charts that the *main* couple has mutual romantic feelings. But even though FFVII has more charts than any other FF, Cloud and Tifa are virtually the only main canon couple to *NEVER* be described romantically. Again -- this raises a huge red flag because the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

2. You say that Cloud and Tifa were described as "living together" in one of the charts. But that was Cloud's connection to Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. Therefore, that chart is *not* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship. That chart is simply talking about who does Cloud live with. And the answer to that question is: he lives with Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. In other words, that chart is not telling us how Cloud's relationship specifically pertains to each one of those characters, it is telling us that he lives with all three of them. But the fact is, Cloud has a separate and unique relationship with all of the people he lives with.

3. What stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together? How are both descriptions inconsistent with one another?

The bottom line is: the inconsistency argument does *not* apply to Cloud and Tifa, therefore the relationship charts are a relevant criticism against the "Cloti is canon" belief.

4. When the charts are *only* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, SE uses the description of "childhood friends". This means that when SE has discussed Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, they have consistently labeled them "childhood friends" *only*. You cannot apply the inconsistency argument to Cloud and Tifa.

And again -- what stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together? How are both descriptions inconsistent with one another?

5. All of this becomes even more weird when we consider that SE provided an FFVII chart and an AC chart and described them the same way for both time periods, even though that would have been the perfect opportunity to show us how the "canon" couple progressed from friends to lovers. If the HAHW scene changed their relationship on a canon basis, they should not be described the same for both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

The bottom line is: the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the *MAIN* canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows. This is awfully, awfully strange.

--------------------

Not only that, but VII's love triangle is the only one you apply these standards to. FFIV has a love triangle, yet you don't seem to have higher standards for Cecil/Rosa(though Cecil/Rosa is married with a kid, so it's kinda hard to deny them), FFIX has a love triangle, yet you don't set higher standards for Zidane/Garnet, etc.

Have you ever looked at the FTOIL page?

1. Cecil x Rosa are the *ONLY* FFIV couple on the FTOIL page. This means out of that love triangle, Cecil x Rosa are given evidence that they should be the canon couple.

2. Celes x Locke are the *ONLY* FFVI couple on the FTOIL page. This means out of that love triangle, Celes x Locke are given evidence that they should be the canon couple.

3. Zidane x Garnet are the *ONLY* FFIX couple on the FTOIL page. This means out of that love triangle, Zidane x Garnet are given evidence that they should be the canon couple.

Cloud is the only hero in a love triangle that is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance. Therefore, I *AM* applying the same standard to all of the love triangles.

My point is that in the absence of a love triangle, it is obvious that a couple is canon. But if there is a love triangle, that means there will be evidence for two pairings. In order to determine which couple is more canon than the other in a love triangle, there has to be clear evidence from SE that one couple is more canon than the other.

On the "For The One I L-O-V-E" page, SE is giving us clear evidence that tells us which couple should be the canon couple for every single love triangle except: ::::::drum roll please::::::
F-I-N-A-L--------F-A-N-T-A-S-Y-------- V-I-I

--------------------

Fact: Aerith is important to Cloud.

Fact: Cloud is described as Aerith's koibito. Koibito means mutual romance.
Fact: The Cloud x Aerith date is canon and included on the FTOIL page, which means Cloud has *love* for Aerith.

Fact: Both Aerith and Tifa have feelings for Cloud, but Cloud was only ever to confirm mutual feelings with Tifa.

Fact: Both the HAHW scene and Cloud x Aerith's *CANON* date are on the FTOIL page. This gives them equal importance in showing Cloud's love for both women.
Fact: Mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship
Fact: The question is "Who Cloud loves?" *NOT* "Which couple expressed mutual feelings?"
Fact: Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after they express mutual feelings

Fact: Cloud is living with Tifa and raising a family.

Fact: Cid and Shera lived together but weren't in a romantic relationship until they got married.

Therefore:
Living together =/= romantic relationship.
Marriage = romantic relationship (something Cloud and Tifa never do)

Fact: Barret helped create this family.
Fact: Marlene is Barret's daughter.
Fact: Barret is apart of the family but not technically *living* with them
Fact: Cloud has a bed in his room

Fact: Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings. Heck, even BB acknowledges this.

Fact: The question is "Who Cloud loves?" *NOT* "Which couple expressed mutual feelings?"
Fact: Mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship begins.
Fact: Nomura doesn't know the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship after they confirm mutual feelings.
Fact: Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after they express mutual feelings.

Fact: Cloud is living with Tifa and raising a family.

Fact: Barret helped create this family.
Fact: Marlene is Barret's daughter.
Fact: Cloud has a bed in his room
Fact: Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her while they are living together and raising a family
Fact: Barret is apart of the family but not technically *living* with them
Fact: Cid and Shera lived together but weren't in a romantic relationship until they got married.

Therefore:
Living together =/= romantic relationship.
Marriage = romantic relationship (something Cloud and Tifa never do)

Fact: Aerith is dead, Tifa is alive. Cloud is living with Tifa, and Aerith is shown with Zack in the afterlife.

Fact: Love after death is a repeated theme with SE. Tidus x Yuna, Vincent x Lucrecia, etc.
Fact: The word "koibito" is applied to both CxA and CxT

Fact: Marlene has two father figures. (She was the one who said she's a child of Cloud's family too--that must mean she hates Barret now? No. She just has two father figures.)

...Ok. Marlene has two Father figures. How does that mean there is two families? All it means is that the unconventional family they established together has two male figures.

Fact: Cloud is guilty about Aerith's death.

Fact: Cloud's guilt is linked to the feeling he developed for Aerith.

Fact: Cloud and Tifa are still childhood friends because they never stopped having a childhood.

Fact: Nothing tells us Cloud x Tifa ever move beyond childhood friends.
Fact: The relationship charts tell us that Cloud x Tifa never move beyond childhood friends

Fact: Cloud wavered between the two heroines. That doesn't mean he can't ever to choose be with one (or both).

Fact: Just because Cloud *can* choose doesn't mean that he has chosen

--------------------

Your first point with Clotis doing this is/making an argument for, I cannot help but say, is bordering on becoming a hasty generalization. You’re lumping people together as a collective whole to prove a point; and since not everyone views this point as proving Cloud and Tifa as a couple, this arguing of such being the case will render your argument invalid.[/COLOR][/FONT]

To deny that numerous Cloti's have used this as evidence in favor of CxT is delusional.

The fact is, Barret helped form, establish, and create the Seventh Heaven Family. All of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together only exclude Barret because he is away on missions. But when he hears of his *family* being attacked, he rushes back to defend them.

As for your second point with Barret being on a journey. He’s been on that journey for two years, and I haven’t seen any evidence that he’s living at Seventh Heaven, post ACC. That’s a long time to be in and out of his daughter’s life. I’m not saying that he’s a bad father; however, he is out of Marlene’s life a lot.[/COLOR][/FONT]

How long Barret has been gone is irrelevant.

And I’m going to bold this, because I’m only surprised that you’re serious: Cloud and Tifa are only the default for being Denzel’s new parents? Are you really being in earnest here? Do you honestly believe that, if Barret were at Seventh Heaven 24/7, then Denzel would regard Barret as his father and not Cloud?[/COLOR][/FONT]

I believe that if Barret were living at Seventh Heaven, Denzel would have two Father figures. The fact that Cloud and Tifa were the only two adults living there means they are his parental figures by default.

Step Dad + Biological Dad = two Father figures. It's possible.

For your first point, Seventh Heaven has been finished and furnished at the start of ACC. The children have a nice room, comfortable beds, and, yes, even furniture. There is no reason whatsoever for Cloud not to have the same, if his souped-up monstrosity of a bike he’s in possession of says anything.

The lack of furniture in Cloud's room does not prevent him from sleeping in the bed found in his room.

You are assuming that Cloud would only sleep in the bed found in his room if it was fully furnished. Why?

Second point, it doesn’t. However, where does he put all of his custom-made clothes? I don’t see him dumping all of his cloudy wolf attire anywhere in that room.[

How do we know he keeps his clothes in Tifa's room?

Where Cloud keeps his clothes is irrelevant.

Thirdly, is it mandated by SE that someone has to sleep in that bed? That bed has only one sheet and looks rather uncomfortable. I also took a look at that room again; and the more I look at it, the more I see that it isn’t much of a room. I don’t even see a chair for Cloud’s desk.

1. The room's condition is irrelevant.
2. I never said someone *has* to sleep in the bed. But it seems odd that SE would include a bed for no reason.
3. It is only logical to assume that the person who *DOES* sleep in the bed is Cloud because it's in his room.

Fourth, they could’ve. As I recall, there is a tire, a box, and junk in that room, too. Cloud must really love having those kinds of things in his room. What odd paraphernalia that man collects. I bet, if he could, he’d also keep Fenrir in there.

There is no evidence that Cloud and Tifa sleep together. There is a bed in Cloud's room. It's not that hard to put two-and-two together.

And fifth, you require evidence of Cloud and Tifa sleeping together to prove them canon?

What I'm saying is that it is an *ASSUMPTION* that Cloud and Tifa sleep together just because they are cohabiting. Did Cid and Shera sleep together when they lived together in FFVII?

But the reason I say Cloud sleeps in a separate room is because there is a bed in his room. I have evidence. You don't.

On an added note, Tifa is also described by SE by not “just” being Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the family they were forming in Edge.

Yes. Out of the three adults that formed this family together, Tifa is the only female -- thus she is the "Mother". Barret is Marlene's "Father". What's your point?

That word shows that they’re not just childhood friends; they also have a family together. With/without Barret included in that family, it doesn’t matter—Tifa is still more than Cloud’s childhood friend. The CC Ultmania quote provides the context for that.

Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends within the family that includes Barret and his daughter Marlene.

Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship is childhood friends, but they are a family with Barret, Marlene and Denzel.

--------------------

If you disagree with this, so you think Cloud is still blaming himself of Aerith's death and Aerith keep "haunting" him, you even disagree to the creator. Seriously, I think Clerith relationship is beautiful, I even start to love this pairing after I roleplay Aerith. But you really ruin my mind because the story goes to about a selfish dead-woman who's never willing to let the man she loves to move on paired with a bastard man who leave his family and let his adopted kids suffer just for blaming himself and clinging to the dead woman he loves for the rest of his life. And you call it's a devotion? Hell, it's an unhealthy relationship and worst story SE ever made.

I do think Aerith gives Cloud the freedom to move on with his friends and family. I've never denied that. But to assume that Cloud is going to move on and be romantically involved with Tifa (when we've never seen any evidence of romantic behavior between them after the HAHW scene) is a huge assumption.

For instance, Cid and Shera lived together in FFVII. But that didn't make them a romantic couple. However, they obviously had feelings for each other because they eventually get married. But it's not living together that made them a couple, it's the *marriage* that made them a couple. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa living together (after forming a family with Barret) does not mean they are romantically involved, especially when Cloud has a bed in his room.

Aerith also tells Cloud that he doesn't belong with her "yet". To me, this says that when the day finally comes for Cloud to return to the lifestream, Cloud and Aerith will be reunited and Cloud will finally be together with Aerith, which is what he always wanted, IMO.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Fact : putting "Fact" doesn't make them facts

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.
​

Cloud obviously thinks you're wrong. It's now different between him and Tifa now.

As for the other points, they're obviously repeats of arguments already rebutted, I wish there is patience left in this thread to adress them... again.

 

[Unlucky]

I don't get what's the big deal about Cloud's office anyway (yes, office). Even if it's also his room, how the hell would that disprove that they're lovers??

The bigger question is where Tifa's room is. Since we're *NOT* supposed to believe anything we don't have solid proofz of, and common sense doesn't count, then I say Tifa has no room.

Heck, she probably sleeps with Cloud in that tiny cot in the office.

Hi! I'm a story writer and my job is to convey that two protagonists are just close but uninvolved friends. One of them is clearly in love, so to make the non-romance obvious I'll have to address that directly.

Got it! I'll make them cohabitate as father and mother figures! That's definitely the least shitty way to get the point across. These days all the young attractive adults live together in one-sided relationships so my audience will have no trouble at all fathoming the dynamic.

edit: ninja'd

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BlankBeat, seeing as you clearly didn't go over my post -- at the least, you did not address it -- I'm just going to leave you with a link back to it and go on my way:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=507678&postcount=5350

 

[I Am Not Me]

Someone needs to learn what Fact means.

Because if you look at my Facts post, you can see that none of them have an ounce of interpretation in them. They are exactly what they are. It's exactly what is shown to us.

I'm not even going to address your points because most of them are INTERPRETATION. Glaringly obvious in that you say "Cloud's feeling of guilt links to his developed feelings for her" when that is AN INTERPRETATION of the FACT that Cloud is guilty for Aerith's death regardless of all the other little details.

I'll show you the contrast:

Fact: Cloud is guilty about Aerith's death.

Fact: Cloud's guilt is linked to the feeling he developed for Aerith.

Do you see which one is fact and which one is interpretation? Because mine is simple and something all of us can agree on. Cloud is guilty of Aerith's death. Proven, simple, true.

Yours interprets his guilt as something else, or connected to something else. To you, it's a guilt that stems from romantic feelings.

It's like:
Me - Fact: The Philippines is made up of many islands.
You - Fact: The Philippines is made up of many islands, surrounded by water, which means Filipinos must all be great swimmers.

And that's not how FACT works.

Interpretation =/= fact.

 

[BlankBeat]

BlankBeat, seeing as you clearly didn't go over my post -- at the least, you did not address it -- I'm just going to leave you with a link back to it and go on my way:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=507678&postcount=5350

1. There have been multiple posts that you have not responded to of mine.

2. A large part of your post was talking about how the charts can be inconsistent for other couples. I agree with that assessment, so I don't care to debate how the charts are inconsistent for other couples. What I'm interested in is how the charts are inconsistent for Cloud and Tifa. How does the argument apply directly to them?

3. I also agree that the relationship charts don't always refer to the beginning of a relationship. Although I think they can and do refer to the beginning of a relationship in a lot of cases, they don't *always* do this. You made your point very well regarding this.

4. Despite all of the inconsistencies, it appears that virtually every canon couple is either given a romantic description at one point, or they are shown with mutual favor arrows at one point. In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows, it seems that in at least one chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

So if anything, the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

As you said, Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a "euphemism for love," according to you. Then, Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows". The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the rule not the exception that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

Additionally, there are more charts for FFVII than any other FF. Funny how even though there are less charts for the other FF's, they almost always show in one of the charts that the *main* couple has mutual romantic feelings. But even though FFVII has more charts than any other FF, Cloud and Tifa are virtually the only main canon couple to *NEVER* be described romantically. Again -- this raises a huge red flag because the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

5. You say that Cloud and Tifa were described as "living together" in one of the charts. But that was Cloud's connection to Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. Therefore, that chart is *not* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship. That chart is simply talking about who does Cloud live with. And the answer to that question is: he lives with Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. In other words, that chart is not telling us how Cloud's relationship specifically pertains to each one of those characters, it is telling us that he lives with all three of them. But the fact is, Cloud has a separate and unique relationship with all of the people he lives with.

6. What stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together? How are both descriptions inconsistent with one another?

The bottom line is: the inconsistency argument does *not* apply to Cloud and Tifa, therefore it is a relevant criticism against the "Cloti is canon" belief.

7. When the charts are *only* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, SE uses the description of "childhood friends". This means that when SE has described Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, they have consistently labeled them "childhood friends" *only*. You cannot apply the inconsistency argument to Cloud and Tifa.

And again -- what stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together? How are both descriptions inconsistent with one another?

8. All of this becomes even more weird when we consider that SE provided an FFVII chart and an AC chart and described them the same way for both time periods, even though that would have been the perfect opportunity to show us how the "canon" couple progressed from friends to lovers. If the HAHW scene changed their relationship on a canon basis, they should not be described the same for both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

The bottom line is: the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the *MAIN* canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows. Awfully, awfully strange.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

The FTOIL page is about romantic confessions, not canon couples. Were ot aboyt canon couples, it'd be a LOT bigger. The Aerith date shows no confession of love to Aerith on Cloud's part, and Cloud is apathetic and disinterested during the whole of said date, and can even tell Aerith he doesn't like spending time with her at the end of said date. Not to mention said page doesn't even specify which date Cloud went on. The date scene os included as it ibcludes romantic confessions from whichever girl you got, assuming you got one of the girls, towards Cloud. Of course, Cloud remains oblivious to said expressions of romantic interest. Meanwhile the quote for the HA Highwind scene says Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings w/o using words. We know these are feelings of romance because the page itself is about romantic love. They have an entirely different section devoted to expressions of non-romantic love.

Also, what stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together AND being in a romantic relationship? And while Cloud and Tifa are never given mutual favors arrows, they ARE given a mutual favors description, which is essentially the same.

 

[BlankBeat]

The FTOIL page is about romantic confessions, not canon couples. Were ot aboyt canon couples, it'd be a LOT bigger. The Aerith date shows no confession of love to Aerith on Cloud's part, and Cloud is apathetic and disinterested during the whole of said date, and can even tell Aerith he doesn't like spending time with her at the end of said date. Not to mention said page doesn't even specify which date Cloud went on. The date scene os included as it ibcludes romantic confessions from whichever girl you got, assuming you got one of the girls, towards Cloud. Of course, Cloud remains oblivious to said expressions of romantic interest. Meanwhile the quote for the HA Highwind scene says Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings w/o using words. We know these are feelings of romance because the page itself is about romantic love. They have an entirely different section devoted to expressions of non-romantic love.

What I'm saying is very simple.

When there is a love triangle, evidence will be provided that supports TWO pairings. This means in order to decide which couple is canon over the other, we must look at how SE treats both pairings. ONE EXAMPLE of this is what appears on the "For The One I Love" page:

Of the THREE love triangles YOU mentioned:
Cecil x Rosa are the *ONLY* FFIV couple from their love triangle on the FTOIL page.
Celes x Locke are the *ONLY* FFVI couple from their love triangle on the FTOIL page.
Zidane x Garnet are the *ONLY* FFIX couple from their love triangle on the FTOIL page.

Cloud is the only hero that has a love triangle that is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance.

Therefore, *ONE* of the ways I've used to determine if a couple is more canon than another couple in a love triangle, is the evidence SE gives us on the FTOIL page. On the "For The One I Love" page, SE is giving us clear evidence that tells us which couple should be the canon couple for every love triangle except:

F-I-N-A-L--------F-A-N-T-A-S-Y--------V-I-I

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

1. There have been multiple posts that you have not responded to of mine

Actually, there's been one, from when I told you I was done talking to you. If you want me to go back and respond to it now, I will -- but it would be rather pointless since the discussion has moved on at this point. Still, I'll do it if you want.

The only other post you could say I didn't respond to was when you asked how I could be sure the "undying feelings" quote is from 2003. Since hito addressed it better than I even would have, I saw no need to repeat him.

Now, here's my post again:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=507678&postcount=5350

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When there is a love triangle, evidence will be provided that supports TWO pairings. This means in order to decide which couple is canon over the other ...

And here we return to the root of your misconceptions.

 

[Ryushikaze]

For the record, I'm still waiting for the response to the rest of my post and the several simple questions you don't want to answer, BB.

 

[BlankBeat]

Actually, there's been one, from when I told you I was done talking to you. If you want me to go back and respond to it now, I will -- but it would be rather pointless since the discussion has moved on at this point. Still, I'll do it if you want.

The only other post you could say I didn't respond to was when you asked how I could be sure the "undying feelings" quote is from 2003. Since hito addressed it better than I even would have, I saw no need to repeat him.

Now, here's my post again:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=507678&postcount=5350

You are simply trying to run away from the recent post of mine because it brings up completely relevant points about the relationship chart.

Anyway --

I agree that the relationship charts have been inconsistent for other couples, except Cloud and Tifa. Therefore, I do not care to debate the inconsistencies of other couples because the argument does not apply to Cloud and Tifa.

I also agree that the relationship charts don't always refer to the beginning of a relationship. I take that position back. So I don't care to debate that point, either.

And I explained in my recent post why SE *has* consistently described Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" despite you saying they don't.

So if you could direct me to what part of your post is not referring to these three things, I would be happy to respond.

 

[I Am Not Me]

You are simply trying to run away from the recent post of mine because it brings up completely relevant points about the relationship chart.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

So wait a minute, the FTOIL page is about resolving love triangles now?

Then who are Ingus and Sara in a love triangle with? Arc?

And who are Squall and Rinoa in a love triangle with? Well, actually there is Quistis...

And who are Steiner and Beatrix in a love triangle with? Kuja?

I don't know why, but for some reason I'm being reminded of that the very powerful and the very stupid change facts to reflect their viewpoints rather than change their viewpoints to reflect facts quote from Doctor Who...

 

[Dashell]

The relationship charts have relevant points now?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Oh yeah, another piece of evidence for Fang/Vanille is the fact that Vanille gropes Fang's breast while they're hugging and Fang lifts up Vanille skirt without asking for or needing permission. Neither objects to either of these things. Were Fang and Vanille not in a relationship, Fang probably would've said something about Vanille's grope, and wouled've asked for permission before looking up Vanille's skirt to check her brand(she is shown asking Lightning for permission to see her brand, rather than just unzipping Light's shirt and shoving her face in her chest).

 

[Danseru-kun]

Perhaps we should stop answering BB for now with new text and just show him again the tons of rebuttals he hasn't answered from Tres and Ryu. Basically BB's "fact list" makes more sense if it's his first post, he has the habit of not addressing rebuttals and bringing up new points then if they get rebutted he'll go back to his older rebutted points.

 

[BlankBeat]

So wait a minute, the FTOIL page is about resolving love triangles now?

Then who are Ingus and Sara in a love triangle with? Arc?

And who are Squall and Rinoa in a love triangle with? Well, actually there is Quistis...

And who are Steiner and Beatrix in a love triangle with? Kuja?

I don't know why, but for some reason I'm being reminded of that the very powerful and the very stupid change facts to reflect their viewpoints rather than change their viewpoints to reflect facts quote from Doctor Who...

This is what you said in your original post:
"Not only that, but VII's love triangle is the only one you apply these standards to."

I explained to you that I apply these standards to the other love triangles, as well.

Of the other three love triangles:
Cecil x Rosa are the *ONLY* FFIV couple from their love triangle on the FTOIL page.
Celes x Locke are the *ONLY* FFVI couple from their love triangle on the FTOIL page.
Zidane x Garnet are the *ONLY* FFIX couple from their love triangle on the FTOIL page.

Therefore, I *AM* applying the same standard to all of the love triangles.

Cloud, however, is the only hero in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance.

How do you not understand that I'm applying all the love triangles to the what we find on the FTOIL page?

I'll try to explain it again: the FTOIL page includes only one couple from every love triangle *except* FFVII. This is *ONE* example of SE telling us that although the love triangles might be solved for the other FF's, it is not solved for FFVII *because* Cloud is the only hero pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance.

PS: I never said the FTOIL page was designed to solve love triangles. What I said is that *IF* a love triangle is present, the FTOIL page is *one* way to determine which couple SE believes is canon.

--------------------

The relationship charts have relevant points now?

In Cloud and Tifa's case, yes, I think they do have relevant points. Since you seem genuinely interested in hearing my explanation, I shall try to explain it to you.

1. I'm not denying that sometimes the charts are inconsistent. However, what I do notice is that it appears that virtually every canon couple is either given a romantic description at one point, or they are shown with mutual favor arrows at one point.

Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a euphemism for love according to Tres. Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows" in one of their charts.

The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the rule not the exception that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another. In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows in every chart, it seems that in at least *one* chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

The one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are *never* given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

2. One of the charts describes Cloud and Tifa as "living together," but the rest described them as childhood friends. But that was Cloud's connection to Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. If you look at the chart, it makes it clear that this is his connection as it relates to the three of them *together*.

Therefore, that chart is *not* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, it's talking about who Cloud lives with. And the answer to that question is: he lives with Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene.

In other words, that chart is not telling us how Cloud's relationship specifically pertains to each one of those characters, it's telling us that he lives with all three of them. But the fact is, Cloud has a separate and unique relationship with all of the three people he lives with.

So this is not an inconsistency with Cloud and Tifa's relationship, it's simply telling us who Cloud lives with.

3. What stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends *AND* living together? How are both descriptions inconsistent with one another?

The bottom line is: the inconsistency argument does *not* apply to Cloud and Tifa, therefore it is a relevant criticism against the "Cloti is canon" belief.

4. When the charts are *only* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, SE uses the description of "childhood friends". This means that when SE has described Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, they have consistently labeled them "childhood friends" *only*. You cannot apply the inconsistency argument to Cloud and Tifa.

And again -- what stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together? How are both of those descriptions inconsistent with one another?

5. All of this becomes even more weird when we consider that SE provided an FFVII chart and an AC chart and described them the same way for both time periods, even though that would have been the perfect opportunity to show us how the "canon" couple progressed from friends to lovers.

SE shows a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship between the FFVII and AC charts, why didn't they use this same opportunity to show a change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship?

Again -- the HAHW scene changed their relationship on a canon basis, Cloud x Tifa should not be described the same for both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

The bottom line is: the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the *MAIN* canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows. Awfully, awfully strange.

--------------------

"Which couple expressed mutual feelings?" is not the question. The question is, "Who does Cloud love?"

If both the HAHW scene and the Clerith date are canon and shown on the FTOIL page, then that means they are of equal importance. Both scenes are canon, both scenes are romantic, and both are shown on the FTOIL page. Therefore, both scenes are *EQUAL*. Both scenes show that Cloud *LOVES* both Aerith and Tifa because both are canon and both are on the FTOIL page.

As evidenced by the two koibito quotes, and both the HAHW scene and the CxA date on the FTOIL page, Cloud *loves* both women.

Therefore, the LTD is *not* solved.

In addition: expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Just because two people admit mutual feelings does not mean a relationship develops from it. This is clearly the case for Cloud x Tifa because:
1. Cloud, Tifa AND Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene
2. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid x Shera?
3. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene
4. Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship *AFTER the HAHW scene
5. The relationship chart for AC lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends. The AC chart is referring to AC, which is *AFTER* the HAHW scene.
6. Cloud has a separate bed in his room after the HAHW scene

All 6 points PROVE that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Why would expressing mutual feelings automatically mean a relationship develops when we consider those six points? Cloud and Tifa never get married, kiss, or do anything romantic after the HAHW scene. I believe based on the lack of romantic moments, and the 6 points I brought up above, it is impossible to say the HAHW scene led to a relationship between Cloud x Tifa.

Also, it is possible for Cloud to love Aerith beyond death. Tidus x Yuna, Vincent x Lucrecia etc. And although Aerith gives Cloud permission to move on with his family and friends, it does not mean he is moving on with Tifa, especially when there is no evidence to support them together after the HAHW scene.

Aerith tells Cloud that he doesn't belong with her "yet". To me, this says that when the day finally comes for Cloud to return to the lifestream, Cloud and Aerith will be reunited and Cloud will finally be together with Aerith, which is what he always wanted, IMO.

 

[Dashell]

In Cloud and Tifa's case, yes, I think they do have relevant points. Since you seem genuinely interested in hearing my explanation, I shall try to explain it to you.

This is probably going to be one of those, "What did I get myself into moments?"

1. I'm not denying that sometimes the charts are inconsistent. However, what I do notice is that it appears that virtually every canon couple is either given a romantic description at one point, or they are shown with mutual favor arrows at one point.

What about Cid and Sherra?

I'm sure that second part isn't true... but I'll admit I don't know the charts well enough to say for sure.

Just because two people admit mutual feelings does not mean a relationship develops from it. This is clearly the case for Cloud x Tifa because:


1. Cloud, Tifa AND Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene

Uh... how does this prove they are not in a relationship?

2. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid x Shera?

Okay then gimmie at least 6 quotes saying that Cid and Sherra are living together because they expressed their mutual feelings. If it's a similar situation there should be quotes for it, right?

3. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene

Again I ask, what does this prove? IF they decided to be just friends... wouldn't she know he DIDN'T love her?

4. Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship *AFTER the HAHW scene

/me cries

5. The relationship chart for AC lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends. The AC chart is referring to AC, which is *AFTER* the HAHW scene.

answer above

6. Cloud has a separate bed in his room after the HAHW scene

My BF of 6 years and i have separate beds... seriously if Cloud sleeps on that little tiny cot in his room, he's clearly some kind of masochist...


and I'm okay with that

If both the HAHW scene and the Clerith date are canon and shown on the FTOIL page, then that means they are of equal importance. Both scenes are canon, both scenes are romantic, and both are shown on the FTOIL page. Therefore, both scenes are *EQUAL*. Both scenes show that Cloud *LOVES* both Aerith and Tifa because both are canon and both are on the FTOIL page.

As evidenced by the two koibito quotes, and both the HAHW scene and the CxA date on the FTOIL page, Cloud *loves* both women.

Therefore, the LTD is *not* solved.

... actually no you're wrong here... if we take all this into consideration it means he loves both... therefore, the LTD IS Solved, he just loves both... who says he has to love one or the other?

 

[BlankBeat]

What about Cid and Sherra?

I'm sure that second part isn't true... but I'll admit I don't know the charts well enough to say for sure.

Even though Cid x Shera aren't a *MAIN* FF couples, I shall entertain this question. Cid and Shera's chart might be referring to FFVII *only*. And since they don't get married until AFTER FFVII is over, it is unfair to expect a chart talking about FFVII only to show them as romantic partners. SE created both an FFVII chart and an AC chart at one point, so we can't say for certain what time period the relationship chart is talking about for Cid x Shera.

However, I'm comparing apples to apples. No one would ever consider Cid and Shera a *main* Final Fantasy couple.

From what I understand, Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a euphemism for love according to Tres. Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows" in one of their charts.

The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the *RULE* not the *EXCEPTION* that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows in every chart, it seems that in at least *one* chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

The one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are *never* given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

Uh... how does this prove they are not in a relationship?

I'm saying that this family was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

Okay then gimmie at least 6 quotes saying that Cid and Sherra are living together because they expressed their mutual feelings. If it's a similar situation there should be quotes for it, right?

What six quotes say Cloud and Tifa are living together for romantic reasons?

Again I ask, what does this prove? IF they decided to be just friends... wouldn't she know he DIDN'T love her?

If Cloud doesn't love her, then they aren't on a romantic relationship. The fact that Tifa doubts Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene is very telling, IMO.

My BF of 6 years and i have separate beds... seriously if Cloud sleeps on that little tiny cot in his room, he's clearly some kind of masochist...

Why else did SE include this bed?

It only makes sense that Cloud would sleep in the bed found in his own room.

... actually no you're wrong here... if we take all this into consideration it means he loves both... therefore, the LTD IS Solved, he just loves both... who says he has to love one or the other?

If Cloud loves both, then there is no canon couple, IMO.