The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

The one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are *never* given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

Again I'll have to look into this... but if it's JUST talking about FFVII for Cid and Sherra could it JUST be talking about FFVII for Cloud and Tifa?

I'm saying that this family was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

It doesn't have to be, it doesn't mean it can't lead to romance.

What six quotes say Cloud and Tifa are living together for romantic reasons?

Do I really have to go back and find them? D:

If Cloud doesn't love her, then they aren't on a romantic relationship. The fact that Tifa doubt Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene is very telling, IMO.

If they aren't in a romantic relationship WTF is she asking for? Seems like a random question to ask someone you know doesn't love you, doesn't it?

Why else did SE include this bed?

tbh I doubt SE gave it much thought.

We're saying the same thing just in different ways.

If Cloud loves both, then there is no canon couple, IMO.

That makes them both canon if you ask me

 

[BlankBeat]

Again I'll have to look into this... but if it's JUST talking about FFVII for Cid and Sherra could it JUST be talking about FFVII for Cloud and Tifa?

There are multiple relationship charts in multiple Ultimania's. Some are all encompassing, some are talking about FFVII *only*, and one is talking about AC *only*.

I'm not the one who brought up Cid x Sherra not being described as romantic lovers in one of the relationship charts, so I'm not certain which chart their non-romantic relationship description appears on.

As to your point about the chart referring to FFVII *only* for Cloud and Tifa...

The FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania provides two relationship charts. One for FFVII and one for AC. They are described as "childhood friends" in both charts.

However, that is not the case for Cloud and Aerith. The FFVII chart states Cloud is Aerith’s “bodyguard.” Then, for the AC chart, it states Cloud feels a, “sense of guilt” towards Aerith. That’s because Cloud failed to protect Aerith — meaning he failed as her bodyguard. The difference between Cloud and Aerith’s two charts was the perfect way for SE to show us how their relationship changed between FFVII and AC — Cloud failed as her “bodyguard” in FFVII, so he feels a sense of “guilt” towards her in AC.

Why did SE not do the same for Cloud and Tifa? Answer: because Cloud and Tifa’s relationship did not change on a canon basis.

If the HAHW scene made them the *canon* couple, why did SE not change their relationship description for the AC chart? Why are they refereed to as childhood friends in both charts?

The other relationship charts (which are not separated by FFVII and AC) found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania also list Cloud and Tifa as “childhood friends” only. In addition, the charts only show favor arrows going from Aerith and Tifa to Cloud. They do not show “favor” arrows going from Cloud to either Aerith or Tifa.

Therefore, not only did SE not show a change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship between FFVII and AC (like they did for Cloud and Aerith), but Cloud and Tifa are one of the only *main* supposedly canon couples to *never* be given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a euphemism for love according to Tres. Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows" in one of their charts.

You'd think that in one of FFVII's charts there would be evidence of mutual attraction between Cloud and Tifa like there is for the other canon couples.

In fact, most other FF's aren't separated into different charts like FFVII. So you'd think at the very least there would be evidence of mutual romantic attraction between Cloud and Tifa in the AC chart *IF* the HAHW made them canon.

Funny, Cloud and Tifa are supposedly in a relationship in AC, yet they are given the same description in the AC chart as they are given in the FFVII chart -- "childhood friends".

It doesn't have to be, it doesn't mean it can't lead to romance.

What is the evidence that this family that was formed by three friends leads to romance? The bottom line is: this family was not created or formed from romantic reasons. The impression *some* Cloti's like to give off is false. Cloud and Tifa did *not* form a family with each other and each other only, nor was this family created from a romantic place.

Do I really have to go back and find them? D:

Do you mean these quotes?

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I highlighted the three words of importance: "live"/"living"/"lived"

Barret isn't *living* with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.



What's *VERY* ironic is that *THIS* quote Cloti's use to exclude Barret proves my EXACT point.

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile"

It says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

The next quote used as proof to exclude Barret:
"Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

All this says is the word "family". It doesn't describe who is in Cloud's family.

And the final quote used as proof to exclude Barret:
"When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself." ~SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback

Ok. I'll give you this *ONE* quote.

But all of these quotes prove that Barret *IS* apart of the Seventh Heaven Family:

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.” (Cloud)
“What the hell do you mean by that?” (Barret)
“Our normal lives.” (Cloud)
“And where do we have something like that?” (Barret)
“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

"Marlene who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. Early next morning, Barret set off." ~CoT

"Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions." ~Barret Wallace's Character Profile

[Funny, Barret rushes back to defend the family that Cloud and him *established* at Seventh Heaven before he left on his journey.]

"Although Marlene is not his real daughter, Barret has a deep affection toward her. If possible, he would have liked to be together with her all the time, however, he could not bring her on perilous trips and their time spent living apart is actually longer. Entrusting Marlene to Elmyra's care in FFVII and Tifa's in AC, he fights hard day after day for the future of his "daughter"."

[If Marlene is Barret's daughter, then he is part of the family. Although he is not *living* with the family, he *IS* apart of the family nonetheless.]

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

[Marlene puts Cloud in the family that includes her Father, Barret. If this is Cloud's family, why did Marlene do the inviting? Shouldn't Cloud have invited Marlene into *HIS* family?]



The best the Cloti side can hope is that SE is inconsistent. But considering there is many more quotes that Barret is included in the family, I'd say it is proven, without a doubt, that Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

If they aren't in a romantic relationship WTF is she asking for? Seems like a random question to ask someone you know doesn't love you, doesn't it?

Because throughout the entire love triangle Cloud has been "wavering". There is no *official* evidence of a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene between Cloud and Tifa. Interpretations, yes. But 100% proof? No.

tbh I doubt SE gave it much thought.

That's your opinion.

I happen to think SE intentionally included a bed in his room because that's where he sleeps. Doesn't seem like that big of a leap in logic.

That makes them both canon if you ask me

Then you agree that the "LTD is over" article is wrong?

To me, the FTOIL page puts both couples on equal footing.

It shows Cloud in two canon scenes of romance with his two love interests on the "For The One I Love" page. This, in addition to the two koibito quotes, mean that Coud has *love* for both Aerith and Tifa.

So yes, I agree with you, both pairings are canon.

It is also worth noting that out of all the other love triangles, the FTOIL page only includes one couple from each love triangle. However, FFVII is the exception to this rule FOR A REASON, IMO.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I see Hawkeye is replying and he'll probably reply to the part about the charts... so I'll leave that to him. He has like every Ultimania so he can shine some light on this part:

The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the *RULE* not the *EXCEPTION* that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

Because I have a feeling it's not accurate. But I've only seen the ones posted in this thread... there's others, right?

What is the evidence that this family that was formed by three friends leads to romance?

Three friends and a Marlene

The bottom line is: this family was not created or formed from romantic reasons.

I think by this point the mutual relationship with Cloud and Tifa had already been established. Adding Barret, Marlene and hell, add all of Avalanche if you want. It doesn't make a difference that Cloud and Tifa already established their feelings.

The impression *some* Cloti's like to give off is false. Cloud and Tifa did *not* form a family with each other and each other only, nor was this family created from a romantic place.

Like I said, you can add anyone you want, put them any place you want. Cloud and Tifa had already established their feelings at this point and those feelings are why they are living together.

Do you mean these quotes?

No, these:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=203857&postcount=4137

and the others than are in the latest Ultimania.

Because throughout the entire love triangle Cloud has been "wavering". There is no *official* evidence of a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene between Cloud and Tifa. Interpretations, yes. But 100% proof? No.

I don't think so. Cloud had feelings for Aerith, but now he's with Tifa. I don't think this makes Cloud a two timer or any less of a good guy. You can love two people, it's perfectly fine.

I happen to think SE intentionally included a bed in his room because that's where he sleep. Doesn't seem like that big of a leap in logic.

And that's YOUR opinion

Then you agree that the LTD is over article is wrong?

I've spoken out against the tone of that article on a number of occasions here. But even if I disagreed with it entirely, what difference would that make? It's still here. Frankly I think that just translating the page and posting what it says would have been the better way to go. The page speaks for itself.

To me, the FTOIL page makes both couples on equal footing.

Then (and you may have answered this, sorry for not reading thoroughly) why does it not even mention Aerith by name?

It shows Cloud in two canon scenes of romance with his two love interests on the "For The One I Love" page. This, in addition to the two koibito quotes, mean that Coud has *love* for both Aerith and Tifa.

So yes, I agree with you, both pairings are canon.

Then why are we fighting? D:

It is also worth nothing that out of all the other love triangles, the FTOIL page only includes one couple from each love triangle. However, FFVII is the exception to this rule FOR A REASON, IMO.

I'd say it's because FFVII is the only game that allows the main character to date one of 4 people, but maybe it's just me

 

[BlankBeat]

Okay I see Hawkeye is replying and he'll probably reply to the part about the charts... so I'll leave that to him. He has like every Ultimania so he can shine some light on this part:

Because I have a feeling it's not accurate. But I've only seen the ones posted in this thread... there's others, right?

If you didn't want to debate the charts, you shouldn't have started.

Three friends and a Marlene

Marlene, who is Barret's daughter

And hey now, you said three *friends*

I think by this point the mutual relationship with Cloud and Tifa had already been established. Adding Barret, Marlene and hell, add all of Avalanche if you want. It doesn't make a difference that Cloud and Tifa already established their feelings.

::::

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship. All of those quotes only prove that they told each other that they had mutual feelings. And although a relationship *TYPICALLY* begins after expressing mutual feelings, Final Fantasy VII is a very unique world full of rare circumstances. But the bottom line is: mutual feelings is never, ever, a 100% indication that a romantic relationship begins.

The most common reason for why people believe Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene is:

1. Cloud and Tifa are living together and raising children. However...

--Cid and Shera lived together, but that did not make them a couple. Cid and Shera only became a couple *after* they got married. Cloud and Tifa never got married.

--Cloud and Tifa are raising children, but one child is Marlene, who is Barret's daughter.

--Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it's just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why they do not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

~~"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together."~~

[It says that the "three of them (Cloud, Tifa, Marlene)" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey". This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.]

--If Barret wasn't away, I believe Denzel would consider Barret as a second Father figure.

--Denzel doesn't consider Cloud and Tifa his parents because they are necessarily romantically involved, he considers them his parents because they are the only male and female figures that currently live at Seventh Heaven. It seems only natural that he would view them both as his parents. But that doesn't say anything about the nature of Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship.

--Barret and Denzel are both apart of the Seventh Heaven family that Barret helped form and create. It's just that Denzel considers Cloud and Tifa his parents because Barret is away, and Cloud is the one who found him.

--The family at Seventh Heaven was formed and established by Barret, Cloud and Tifa. The family was not created from a romantic place, nor was it created just between Cloud and Tifa.

Other reasons why the HAHW scene does not unequivocally mean a romantic relationship began between Cloud and Tifa:
-Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship after FFVII ends
-Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her
-Cloud has a bed in his room, which suggests Cloud and Tifa are not living together like a romantic couple would
-The ADVENT CHILDREN relationship chart describes Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only*

All of these four things also suggest Cloud and Tifa are *not* in a romantic relationship.

The reason why the bed is important:
The bed in Cloud's room suggests Cloud and Tifa are not living together like a typical romantic couple would. Most couples sleep in the same bed, but Cloud has a bed in his room. So when people say, "Cloud and Tifa are living together!" it is a huge oversimplification and implies that Cloud and Tifa are sleeping in the same bed. But when knowing about the bed in Cloud's room, everything isn't so clear-cut anymore.

Furthermore, those who say Cloti is canon have still failed to provide any undeniable evidence of a clear romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene aside from, "they live together with kids!"
****which we all know is a huge oversimplification****

No, these:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=203857&postcount=4137

and the others than are in the latest Ultimania.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Although this is a reasonable assumption, it is *NOT* always the case that expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship begins.

As we can see, Cloud and Tifa are living in a world of very rare and unique circumstances that I believe prevented them from ever turning their mutual feelings into a romantic relationship.

Furthermore, the FTOIL page tells us that the CxA date is on equal footing as the HAHW scene. The question is not, "Which couple expresses mutual feelings?", the question is, "Who does Cloud love?" And based on the FTOIL page and the koibito quotes, it is established that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa. Both pairings are valid answers to the LTD, which is why I believe it is up to interpretation.

And that's YOUR opinion

You have yet to give me an explanation for why there is a bed in Cloud's room.

People keep saying, "there's hardly any furniture in Cloud's room so he can't possible sleep in that bed!" -- but I look at it as, out of the small amount of furniture they put in Cloud's room, they chose a bed.

Do you deny that the most reasonable explanation is that Cloud would simply sleep in the bed found in his room?

The bed in Cloud's room suggests Cloud and Tifa are not living together like a typical romantic couple would. Most couples sleep in the same bed, but Cloud has a bed in his room. So when people say, "Cloud and Tifa are living together!" it is a huge oversimplification and implies that Cloud and Tifa are sleeping in the same bed. But when knowing about the bed in Cloud's room, everything isn't so clear-cut anymore.

The page speaks for itself.

Yes, Cloud is shown with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance.

FFVII is the only love triangle where BOTH pairings are represented on the FTOIL page.

Then (and you may have answered this, sorry for not reading thoroughly) why does it not even mention Aerith by name?

Here is my post about the caption argument. It's long, but please read:

The fact that SE wanted to talk about as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page makes complete sense. By picturing the *canon* date and then discussing that there are 4 possible dates allows SE to achieve two goals -- they are able to give preferential treatment to the *canon* date because it's pictured, but they are also able to discuss as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page.

However, there is only *ONE* version of the Highwind scene that is appropriate to talk about and include on the FTOIL page, and that version is the HA version. The reason why the LA version is nowhere to be seen or mentioned on the FTOIL page is because it is not appropriate for it to be included. Why would the LA version be included? It's not romantic.

But even though the LA version was not appropriate to include on the FTOIL page, SE still includes a reference page that you can flip to that says there are *TWO* versions of the Highwind scene that depend on affection points.

But the bottom line is -- there are four romantic dates which are all referenced and represented on the FTOIL page (as they should be). But because there is only one romantic version of the Highwind scene, only the HA Highwind scene was referenced on the FTOIIL page.

But if you could get the HA Highwind scene with different characters (as you can for the date), you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.

SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith because we are meant to apply the FTOIL more specifically to their *canon* date.

This is what was included in the "LTD over" article when commenting on the CxA date caption:
"Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years."

But my argument is that despite the caption not saying which version is official, we have evidence that the CxA date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant.

The caption was simply there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). But SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to their date.

Again -- the only reason one version of the Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA version on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.

The date simply can't be compared to the Highwind scene (or any other romantic scene on that page, for that matter) because you can get four characters for the date, whereas there's only one character you can get during the HA Highwind scene. So in order to include all the romantic dates on the FTOIL page while also giving special treatment to the *canon* date, SE mentioned all the dates in the caption and pictured Cloud x Aerith's date.

On the contrary, only the HA Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page because that is the only appropriate version to include. Which is exactly why SE lists a reference page on the FTOIL page so people can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, it is simply the only appropriate version to include on the FTOIL page.

But just because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't mention anything about them specifically doesn't mean their date isn't canon. And it also doesn't mean that the Cloud x Aerith date doesn't tell us the exact same thing that the HA Highwind scene does, which is that Cloud has feelings of love for Aerith.

Again -- if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, that would have been specified on the FTOIL page just like all the dates were.

Then why are we fighting? D:

You started it

 

[I Am Not Me]

And hey now, you said three *friends*

Look out, guys, apparently we can't describe Barret, Cloud, and Tifa as friends now. Calling three of them friends must mean we are lying, dishonest debaters!

Since we're all Clotis, we should all say 'Barret and lovers' or 'Barret and two people' or 'complete strangers'. Because Barret isn't friends with Cloud and Tifa regardless of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

 

[Kittie]

To deny that numerous Cloti's have used this as evidence in favor of CxT is delusional.

All right, BB, I will be civil with you on this: the point I made is that you’re generalizing Clotis as a whole. You didn’t say some or certain or a group or anything of that nature. You said Clotis. That is, in logic, considered a hasty generalization. You have no exact numbers to support your claim. You were making a fallacy and I warned you about it. I won’t deny that some people who view Cloud and Tifa as having a relationship have made that argument; however, you cannot say that every person who views them in a relationship has made that argument.

I wasn’t being delusional about that. I was pointing out that your argument was flawed. It is. And next time, you need to be more specific in your wording, because, again, lumping people together is simply bad form, for one thing, and is also incredibly shortsighted as you try to present a convincing argument. Using words like delusional are simply poor ways of debating, and come off as being incredibly rude. Again, you need to consider your wording when you debate with people, otherwise you will commit fallacies and lose the argument.

How long Barret has been gone is irrelevant.

How long Barret has been gone from Seventh Heaven may not mean anything to us, but it certainly means a hell of a lot to Marlene. I can’t believe you would demean their relationship like that. Don’t you think Marlene wants the man she considers her father to be around in her life more? I know I would certainly miss my own father if he had been out of my life like that. It’s a shocking perspective you have, on something like a father being in and out of his daughter’s life for two years as being irrelevant. Again, FFVII is more than just about romance; it’s also about friends and family and the relationships they have. That’s the bigger picture, especially when the OG’s main theme was about “Life” and ACC’s theme was about “Survival,” with the concept of “Family” playing an important role.

How do we know he keeps his clothes in Tifa's room?

Where Cloud keeps his clothes is irrelevant.

You’re putting words in my mouth, BB. I never said that he kept them in Tifa’s room; I said that I didn’t see his clothes in that room. And most people generally do have their clothes somewhere in their room. Denzel and Marlene certainly do. But the more important question is: where does Cloud keep his clothes? If not there in that room, then where? And, please, don’t say that’s irrelevant. I won’t accept that as an answer.

1. The room's condition is irrelevant.

2. I never said someone *has* to sleep in the bed. But it seems odd that SE would include a bed for no reason.

3. It is only logical to assume that the person who *DOES* sleep in the bed is Cloud because it's in his room.

Again, irrelevance. We’re debating the condition of the room, while you seem to want to pass it off as being irrelevant and ignore it. That’s your answer, then?

You know, there’s a chocobo on Denzel’s nightstand, too. SE adds things to the house. They set the place up, very much like any normal, standard home. I believe Ryu has even mentioned a bed in his father’s office. SE has made ACC’s setting, very much like a contemporary dwelling, yet they surprisingly missed including a chair for Cloud’s desk.

As for your third point, I believe Tres has already pointed out that that room is Cloud’s office. Cloud can have an office and a room. How is this so difficult to comprehend? Oh, it’s because Cloud’s possibly having another room isn’t mentioned specifically by SE, right? Does SE have to provide that as evidence, as well? You must have very high standards for SE, BB, if you say yes to that question.

What I'm saying is that it is an *ASSUMPTION* that Cloud and Tifa sleep together just because they are cohabiting. Did Cid and Shera sleep together when they lived together in FFVII?

But the reason I say Cloud sleeps in a separate room is because there is a bed in his room. I have evidence. You don't.

So, your assumption is your opinion, right?

You have evidence for that single bed. Case of Tifa has evidence of them having a conversation in the night when Cloud is sleeping. Whether you accept them as being in bed together, while they have that conversation or not, is your choice. But Case of Tifa, when I looked at it objectively, painted for me an entirely different picture for that scene. Nojima’s novella is the evidence I have for my point. I’m very incredulous, when it comes to the LTD; however, when I read Case of Tifa, I found that it would be absurd to imagine Tifa hovering over Cloud in his office while he sleeps, and then waking him up with her questions. If she wanted to wait for his answer all night, then she would either be standing or sitting on the floor at his bedside, because, again, his office has no chair. You can make what you want of that scene in Case of Tifa, but I already have my answer for it—from careful deduction—that their conversation would’ve been strange indeed, if it had been carried out with Tifa hovering over him/kneeling at his bedside. Perhaps some people carry out intimate conversations like that in Japan. I’ve never heard of it, though.

I believe that if Barret were living at Seventh Heaven, Denzel would have two Father figures. The fact that Cloud and Tifa were the only two adults living there means they are his parental figures by default.

Step Dad + Biological Dad = two Father figures. It's possible.

So, if Denzel can have two father figures in his life, then Marlene can view Cloud as a father figure when Barret’s away, right? This can work both ways for the children. As for the default thing, Cloud and Tifa adopted Denzel. They chose to welcome him into the Seventh Heaven home. There is no default here. It was by choice.

Yes. Out of the three adults that formed this family together, Tifa is the only female -- thus she is the "Mother". Barret is Marlene's "Father". What's your point?

First off, I used that quote from SE to point out that she and Cloud aren’t just childhood friends anymore. Here’s the quote in full, from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

...

The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.

...

If you want me to explain the mother of the family thing, here: It’s an addition that SE chose to use in their description of Tifa. She and Cloud were forming a family. Together. According to SE, she isn’t only his childhood friend anymore. They’re raising a family together. And, yes, Tifa is now considered the mother of both Denzel and Marlene, while Denzel—not Marlene—considers Cloud to be his new father. Cloud and Tifa aren’t only childhood friends at this point. This quote points that out about her. That’s my point.

And I also see that you’ve ignored the “just” in that quote. There’s an “isn’t” in there, as well. In simple English, the sentence can be read like this: Tifa isn’t only Cloud’s childhood friend. The “isn’t” and “just,” again, are present in that description, and therefore, cannot be distorted into something else. The rules of grammar would be broken otherwise.

As for Tifa’s description from the Crisis Core Ultimania I mentioned in my last post, what of that? It looks to be disregarded again. Can you tell me why you didn’t address it? Here’s the quote again, for reference:

…

The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

…

 

[Strangelove]

If there was a quote saying they have 'mutual favour' (長年好意を抱いていたクラウドとティファ from the 25th Anniversary Ultimania), do they still need to have a chart with arrows for it to count?

Does confessing mutual feelings not show who Cloud loves?

How do we know that the room Cloud uses as an office wasn't a guest or spare bedroom? Barret's room that has been turned into an office after he left?

How do we prove that we exist? Maybe we don't exist...

was my post ignored

 

[BlankBeat]

All right, BB, I will be civil with you on this: the point I made is that you’re generalizing Clotis as a whole. You didn’t say some or certain or a group or anything of that nature. You said Clotis. That is, in logic, considered a hasty generalization. You have no exact numbers to support your claim. You were making a fallacy and I warned you about it. I won’t deny that some people who view Cloud and Tifa as having a relationship have made that argument; however, you cannot say that every person who views them in a relationship has made that argument.

I wasn’t being delusional about that. I was pointing out that your argument was flawed. It is. And next time, you need to be more specific in your wording, because, again, lumping people together is simply bad form, for one thing, and is also incredibly shortsighted as you try to present a convincing argument. Using words like delusional are simply poor ways of debating, and come off as being incredibly rude. Again, you need to consider your wording when you debate with people, otherwise you will commit fallacies and lose the argument.

1. Considering the things I've been called during this debate makes it pretty laughable that you found it so offensive that I said, "Cloti's are trying to give off the impression that, "Cloud and Tifa are obviously in a romantic relationship because they formed a family together and are raising children together, therefore they are in a romantic relationship because that's what romantic couples do!"

2. If you actually thought I meant every single Cloti on Earth...well, I don't know what to tell you...

3. I was simply saying that a common argument I hear from the Cloti camp is that Cloud and Tifa formed a family separate from Barret, and that Marlene has two families. That is *NOT* true.

4. I will now qualify my statements with *some Cloti's* or *many of the Cloti's I've spoken to* say XYZ. Can we move on now?

How long Barret has been gone from Seventh Heaven may not mean anything to us, but it certainly means a hell of a lot to Marlene. I can’t believe you would demean their relationship like that. Don’t you think Marlene wants the man she considers her father to be around in her life more? I know I would certainly miss my own father if he had been out of my life like that. It’s a shocking perspective you have, on something like a father being in and out of his daughter’s life for two years as being irrelevant. Again, FFVII is more than just about romance; it’s also about friends and family and the relationships they have. That’s the bigger picture, especially when the OG’s main theme was about “Life” and ACC’s theme was about “Survival,” with the concept of “Family” playing an important role.

The length of Barret's journey was irrelevant to the topic we were discussing. We weren't debating how it has impacted Marlene.

And for the record, I agree, it probably was hard for Marlene. But again, that wasn't what we were discussing.

You’re putting words in my mouth, BB. I never said that he kept them in Tifa’s room; I said that I didn’t see his clothes in that room. And most people generally do have their clothes somewhere in their room. Denzel and Marlene certainly do. But the more important question is: where does Cloud keep his clothes? If not there in that room, them where? And, please, don’t say that’s irrelevant. I won’t accept that as an answer.

Yes. Most people generally keep their clothes in their room. But people also sleep in the bed that's in their room, too.

My point was that just because Cloud doesn't keep his clothes in his room doesn't prevent him from sleeping in the bed found in his room. So how is this point even relevant?

You, know, there’s a chocobo on Denzel’s desk, too. SE adds things to the house. They set the place up, very much like any normal, standard home. I believe Ryu has even mentioned a bed in his father’s office. SE has made ACC’s setting, very much like a contemporary dwelling, yet they surprisingly missed putting a chair in for Cloud’s desk. [/COLOR]

So SE adding a chocobo to Denzel's desk is relevant how?

Are you insinuating that adding a random chocobo is similar to adding a bed in Cloud's room?

Bottom line: Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, or until we see a guest sleep in the bed found in Cloud's room, it is only reasonable to assume that Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

As for your third point, I believe Tres has already pointed out that that room is Cloud’s office. Cloud can have an office and a room. How is this so difficult to comprehend? Oh, it’s because Cloud’s possibly having another room isn’t mentioned specifically by SE, right? Does SE have to provide that as evidence, as well? You must have very high standards for SE, BB, if you say yes to that question.

OK. Cloud has a bed/office that has a bed in it. A bed is for sleeping. Who sleeps there if not Cloud? Why did SE include a bed in the four walls that Cloud considers his own?

Bottom line: Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, or until we see a guest sleep in the bed found in Cloud's room, it is only reasonable to assume that Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

So, if Denzel can have two father figures in his life, then Marlene can view Cloud as a father figure when Barret’s away, right? This can work both ways for the children. As for the default thing, Cloud and Tifa adopted Denzel. They chose to welcome him into the Seventh Heaven home. There is no default here. It was by choice.

Yes. Cloud and Tifa welcomed Denzel into Seventh Heaven because they were the only two adults living there at that time. And they adopted him into their family which also includes Barret and Marlene.

And yes, Marlene can view Cloud has a Father figure. That doesn't mean there are two families, however.

The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.

Yes. Tifa is the "Mother" and Cloud and Barret are the "Fathers". Barret is Marlene's primary Father.

May I remind you that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed this family together? I've already provided the quotes in my previous posts.

As for Tifa’s description from the Crisis Core Ultimania I mention in my last post, what of that? It looks to be disregarded again. Can you tell me why you didn’t address it? Here’s the quote again, for reference:

…

The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

…

Because it says two things I agree with. They confirm feelings and then live together. It says nothing about a relationship. I've already went over this 100 times. But here I go again...

The 8 reasons why the HAHW scene did not necessarily lead to a relationship between Cloud x Tifa's from a canon point-of-view:

1. Cloud, Tifa and Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene. Marlene is Barret's daughter.

2. This family was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

3. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid and Shera in FFVII?

4. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene

5. Nomura doesn't know the nature of their relationship *AFTER* the HAHW scene

6. The relationship chart for AC lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends. The AC chart is referring to AC, which is *AFTER* the HAHW scene.

7. Cloud has a separate bed in his room after the HAHW scene

8. Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it's just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

~~"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together."~~

[It says that the "three of them (Cloud, Tifa, Marlene)" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey". This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.]

All 8 points tell me that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

One thing that irritates me is when people say Cloud and Tifa haven't had any displays of affection. They've had sex for fucks sake, albeit offscreen. But that's moar than can be said for a lot of other FF couples. Here's a list of canon couples and the known displays of affection they've had, for comparison:
Cecil/Rosa: onscreen embrace, implied sex(they have a kid[Ceodore]
Yang/Sheila: implied sex(they have a kid[Ursula])
Dorgan/Stella: implied sex(they have a kid[Bartz])
Boko/Coco: implied sex(They have kids)
Cloud/Tifa: offscreen sex
Zack/Aerith: onscreen hug
Dyne/Elenor: implied sex(they have a kid[Marlene]
Red/Deneh: implied sex(Red has kids)
Hojo/Lucrecia: implied sex(they have a kid[Sephiroth])
Squall/Rinoa: offscreen kiss
Laguna/Raine: implied sex(they have a kid[Squall])
Zidane/Garnet: onscreen hug and onscreen ass grope
Steiner/Beatrix: onscreen almost kiss
Tidus/Yuna: onscreen kiss and onscreen hug
Seymour/Yuna(though not technically canon): onscreen kiss
Wakka/Lulu: implied sex (they have a kid)
Vaan/Penelo: onscreen kiss
Balthier/Fran: implied...something(Fran mentions Balthier did something to woo her)
Rasler/Ashe: onscreen kiss
Fang/Vanille: onscreen boob grope and skirt lift
That's all I can remember off the top of my head atm. If I missed any, let me know, so I can add them.

I realized I forgot the display of affection for Fang and Vanille, so I added it.

Anyway, BB, you are ignoring the fact that the FTOIL page is about confessions of romantic love. You seem to think it's trying to show us canon couples which it isn't. It would be a lot longer if that were it's purpose. Of course, you won't listen. If you didn't listen the first time I told you this, I doubt you'll listen now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You are simply trying to run away from the recent post of mine because it brings up completely relevant points about the relationship chart.

Offering to reply to an additional post is "running away" in your book? Reasoning such as that is why we are having these never-ending skirmishes -- you have taken the opposite understanding of that which would be intuitive on everything.

Also, here, I went ahead and responded to that old post:

Spoiler: Placed behind a spoiler tag since it's a tangent to the current line of discussion

Thanks for not replying to the primary point I made: "And maybe it has been [settled]? Do you have any evidence that he's been asked about it since the fall of 2005?"

That's completely irrelevant because Nomura's quote is addressing the 2 years after Final Fantasy VII ended, not Advent Children.

It's entirely relevant to the question of those two years. Do you have evidence that he has been asked about that period of time since a story set during was published?

The truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship during the 2 years after FFVII was extremely complicated and unclear. However, by Advent Children, the truth of their relationship becomes clear -- they're completely incompatible together and follow along with Nojima's premise that things "aren't going well" between them. Maybe the dysfunctional "truth" about their relationship wasn't crystal clear until AC…?

If you claim the joyful ending of Advent Children and an official comment like "they finally reach a commune with each other and return to living together once again" were meant to convey a "completely incompatible" relationship, then you're just being dishonest.

Furthermore, the translation I use for Nomura's quote was given by FlareGamer.com:
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.
Source: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1

This translation says Nomura has "no clue" about the status of their relationship, not that he "doesn't care". Therefore, the HAHW scene does not unequivocally prove Cloud and Tifa entered a romantic relationship because the status of their relationship after FFVII is unknown by Nomura.

Here are the other two sources I use for my translation:
Source #1
Source #2

Since there is no official translation, we will have to agree to disagree.

Or you could get off your Interweb-ass and read hito's long post demonstrating the use of "shiranai" (知らな&#12356 as "I don't care," finally make use of an online translator, or just so much as do a Google search.

The point I'm making is that even if we accept your translation, Nomura still doesn't give a definitive answer about the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship because their isn't a definitive answer. Nomura could have easily put an end to the questions he was receiving about their relationship, but since there isn't a definitive answer, he isn't able to give one.

Or maybe he wanted people to buy the AC Prologue book and watch the goddamn movie he was being interviewed about. I don't know, crazy thoughts.

In addition, if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, why does Tifa show jealously toward Cloud's relationship with Aerith? To me, the reason Tifa shows jealously over Cloud's relationship with Aerith is because she doesn't know if Cloud loves her. Tifa has to ask Cloud if he loves her, and he doesn't even give her a response.

As has been pointed out to you countless times: If Tifa already knew Cloud didn't love her, she wouldn't need to ask. You don't hear people who don't know asking this question nearly as often as you hear people in relationships asking.

Also, Cloud doesn't respond because he doesn't understand the question. He wakes up to her asking him something, then she changes the question.

One could say Cloud didn't respond to Tifa's question because Cloud had just woken up and didn't hear her. But why would SE include this scene to simply show us that Cloud didn't hear Tifa. This scene was obviously included to tell us that their relationship is in trouble.

Give the man a prize! He gets it!

And conceded that there's a relationship to be in trouble in the first place.

Unless SE specifically says Cloud didn't hear Tifa, we shouldn't come up with excuses and assumptions for why he may not have heard her. The fact is, Cloud heard Tifa's question and didn't give her a response because he is not sure if he loves her.

So that's a fact and not an excuse or assumption? You just said it hasn't been specified whether he heard her, but then say it's a fact that he did.

What the holy fuck?

For that matter, do you think people tend to understand words that are heard when someone wakes them up? Whenever I wake my wife up, she always asks me "What?" She has literally never understood what I said the first time.

I know this is a hard fact for Cloti's to swallow, but the obvious conclusion SE knows viewers will draw from this exchange is that both Cloud and Tifa don't know if their feelings for one another are mutual.

Tifa doesn't know. Tifa.

Also -- if Cloud didn't hear Tifa, why didn't he ask her to repeat the question?

Oh, I don't know. Why would someone who didn't understand a question ask someone to repeat it?

Not hearing is not the same thing as not understanding. Hear does not entail understanding.

Holy shit, why did I bother responding to this crap.

The bottom line is:
If Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, why doesn't Tifa know if Cloud loves her?

'Cause she's an insecure overthinker.

If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, how can anyone be certain that they are in a romantic relationship?

'Cause, unlike Tifa, we aren't characters in a story with limited knowledge of the overall narrative and the feelings of the other characters.

If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, how do you know?

'Cause I'm capable of synthesizing data in my brain and don't ignore direct statements like "Cloud and Tifa have loved one another for many years."

Unlike Aerith, I guess?

I'm not arguing that Cloud and Aerith are canon, therefore I'm not held to the same standard of proof that you are.

"Intended pairing" is the same thing as canon. Developer intentions are canon.

Since you are trying to proclaim that Cloud and Tifa are canon, you have to provide undeniable evidence that they moved from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. Simply expressing mutual feelings does not automatically mean a relationship begins, especially if circumstances such as those shown in CoT and AC prevent it (ie: constant communication problems and disagreements, Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her, Nojima speaking of a premise that things "aren't going well" between them, and Nomura not knowing the status of their relationship, etc.)

So Nojima wrote a story about things going poorly in a hypothetical relationship that doesn't actually exist in the story?

I want my money back, Square.

But to answer your question, I would say that SE treats C/A similarly to other Final Fantasy couples. Final Fantasy couples are typically show under a romantic context doing romantic activities together, such as Squall and Rinoa dancing in FFVIII. Since Cloud and Aerith share a romantic date for an extended period of gameplay, I would say that SE treats C/A similarly to other Final Fantasy couples by portraying them together in a romantic context.

Oh, yeah, you're not arguing Clerith as canon. Nope, not one bit.

And, hey, nevermind Cloud and Tifa having an intimate confession of romantic feelings that officially, unequivocally involves a physically intimate display of those feelings! That's not a romantic activity!

In addition, it is stated that Cloud and Aerith's promised date "ends magically". Common sense suggests that when a date ends "magically," something extremely *magical* happened. Just as we can make assumptions about what happens when a screen fades to black, we can also make assumptions about what happens when a date ends *magically*

Or we could acknowledge that "ends magically" was never said anywhere after it has been explained to us numerous times. I don't know, crazy talk again.

One could say that out of the two versions of the Highwind scene, the HA version is canon. One could also say that out of the four versions of the Golden Saucer date, the C/A date is canon. To me, the C/A Golden Saucer date is equal to the HAHW scene in terms of showing mutual romantic feelings.

Yes, both of those are canon. However, I would very much like to know where in the date that Cloud confesses romantic feelings.

Not saying he doesn't have them. I just want to know where he confesses them.

Oh, and look! I can do it too! At the end of the date, Aerith has to ask him "You don't like being with me?"! If the date was romantic, Aerith shouldn't have to ask him! She should know if he likes being with her! She should know if they like each other!

Oh my God! Worldview shattered! Room spinning! Mind spiraling into abyss!

Oh my Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo --

Granted, SE specifically says that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings during the Highwind scene. But a date is inherently romantic, there is no need to state the obvious. By Cloud agreeing to go on a romantic date with Aerith shows that he has mutual romantic feelings for her (especially when you consider that Cloud is refereed to as Aerith's "koibito").

Oh, bullshit. Going on a date -- especially one where the other person pushes you out the door rather than you bounding out on your own -- doesn't mean you have romantic feelings.

Again, not saying he doesn't have them. Disagreeing with your reasoning.

But I'd like to point something out:
“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

This tells me that the normal/canon outcome is the C/A date. On the contrary, nowhere is it specifically stated that the HAHW scene is the *normal* outcome ...

It doesn't need to be stated. You have to go out of your way to make it not happen. Playing the game normally means it will happen.

... nor is it ever stated what type of mutual feelings are expressed during the Highwind scene.

Yeah, on a page focused on romantic love, it's unclear. Holy Christ.

In both the HA and LA version, Cloud and Tifa express doubt and hesitation about heading into the final battle, and both come to agree that as long as they have each other they can get through any obstacle together.

So although the HAHW scene is used more often than the LA version, that could simply mean it is being used as a placeholder because obviously one of the two versions has to be chosen. The HA version *IS* more interesting, which is probably why it has been used as a placeholder more often than the LA version, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's canon.

None of the quotes where SE talks about the Highwind scene do they specifically refer to the high affection version, except on the FTOIL page.

More bullcrap. Almost all of them using romantic phrasing identical to the descriptions used for romantic moments of confession involving other FF couples.

But you know this.

But the FTOIL page is irrelevant because I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

It does when it unequivocally states that the event in question happened. Just like the two references to it in the 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2, which weren't on pages about romantic love and don't discuss variability of the scene anywhere.

Again -- the C/A date has a quote that says Aerith is the *normal* outcome. Nowhere is it stated that the HAHW scene is the *normal* outcome.

It's been stated that it is the outcome. That's even better.

In my honest opinion, the HAHW scene is most likely canon (although the evidence behind it is not as strong as many of you think). But my biggest point during this debate has been that even if the HAHW scene occurred, it did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Being honest and fair, that is a perfectly reasonable position to take until you examine the rest of the material.

And SE describes Cloud and Tifa's moments of great confession in identical wording to other canon Final Fantasy couples.

SE has showed other Final Fantasy couples having intimate physical contact with each other that is indisputably romantic. The same cannot be said for Cloud and Tifa.

Because their intimate physical contact was off-screen due to the nature of that physical contact. But we've been told they had such contact.

What you said is that there is no dialogue between them similar to other canon couples. I pointed some out to you. Whatever tangent you've gone off on now has nothing to do with the point we were discussing.

You mentioned two canon couples that have scenes similar to Cloud and Tifa (Fei/Elly and Squall/Rinoa). But you did not provide any specific pieces of dialogue, you simply referenced the scenes. Until you show me the exact pieces of dialogue, I can't make any judgements.

The morning after Fei and Elly have sex, he wakes her up accidentally and says "Sorry, did I wake you?" as in the scene with Cloud and Tifa.

While Rinoa leans against Squall on the Ragnarok, she says "Just a little longer" when he suggests she get back to her seat for their descent to the surface.

But I will note that the two Cloud x Tifa scenes you chose occur in both the HA and LA Highwind scene. This means that even if Cloud and Tifa's dialogue match the dialogue from other canon couples, we can't be certain that the dialogue is romantic in Cloud and Tifa's case because their dialogue occured in both the HA and LA Highwind scene.

Weren't you the one saying that non-canon versions of scenes (i.e. the non-canon dates) don't matter a moment ago?

Regardless, the difference between the High Affection and Low Affection scenes is in whether their feelings are expressed, not whether they have them.

You do recall that both hand reach scenes with Cloud and Aerith were life-and-death situations, yes? One of them being, in fact, the same life-and-death situation where all of his friends gave him a boost?

"The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. It was Tetsuya (Nomura)'s idea...." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

The fact that the hand reach scene in AC is paying homage to the hand reach scene in FFVII makes it very romantic, especially given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship (Cloud is Aerith's "koibito").

Homage means dick all with regard to whether they were life-and-death situations. They were.

And the entire team was involved in that homage.

If Nomura thinks the hand reach between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII should be honored and given dedication/respect through a homage in AC, it is clearly different than the times Cloud holds hands with his comrades.

... He held hands with his comrades during the homage.

The act of holding hands is established by SE as a very special piece of physical imagery between Cloud and Aerith.

Yes.

To me, the scene itself is touching and bittersweet. Cloud wasn't able to take Aerith's hand in FFVII -- but he was finally able to do so in AC.

Also, yes. It's an awesome scene. Doesn't mean it's romantic.

I will also note that the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith is similar to other canon couples -- Kairi/Sora in Kingdom Hearts and Snow and Serah in FFXIII.

I trust that you saw my posts detailing the great multitude of hand-reach scenes in KH and FF that demonstrate how little claim romance has to such scenes?

----
Both were enveloped in mako as they sank into the Planet.
Cloud's second time; Tifa's first experience.

Aerith bet everything on this one chance.

She eagerly turned her attention to Tifa, whose mind was
being overwhelmed in the highly concentrated mako. Aerith
guided her consciousness into Cloud's closed mind.

In truth, she wanted to do it herself. However, Aerith could
not play this role. Therefore, she entrusted it to Tifa. She
entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her
own heart. To the person who would "live" together with
Cloud ...

And Tifa succeeded. Comparing her memories with Cloud's
memories, she looked for those things only the real Cloud
could know. This serving as proof, the closed door was
opened. She released the memories that were firmly locked
up in the bottom of his heart; he didn't get to be a SOLDIER,
but due to an ability from Jenova he had been imbued with,
Cloud, an ordinary soldier, copied the traits of his best friend,
Zack. She restored him to his natural personality rather than
the fake one he had created to maintain his sense of self.

"You did it, Tifa. Thank you ... I'm a bit jealous of you, but
look after Cloud ― and the upper world too, please."

Aerith watched as they returned to the surface with Tifa
pulled up against Cloud, who was back to his senses. She
smiled like an affectionate mother, though.

Aerith isn't jealous of C/T's relationship, she is jealous that Tifa is able to live with Cloud and look after him. Tifa, on the other hand, is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's actual relationship.

So Aerith isn't jealous of Cloud and Tifa's relationship? Just Tifa getting to be the one who will get to live with and look after Cloud? And that isn't in any way an elaborate euphemism for "their relationship"?

Yet Tifa being anxious that Cloud might think things would have gone better with a chick he hasn't talked to in two years (since she's dead) constitutes being jealous of an actual relationship?

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about when I say you take the opposite of an intuitive reading of things.

I'd also like to take a moment to expand on Tifa's jealously since it is much different than Aerith's jealously.

Here is a passage from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania outlining Tifa's repeated jealously of her "love rival":
"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith's church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex."
 ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

One of the lines specifically says that Tifa let her "peevish feelings" slip when she saw Cloud and Aerith developing their "own world" together. Why would Tifa be jealous of a world of friendship?

It is clear that Tifa is jealous of the world her "love rival" is forming with the man she loves because the world he is forming with this "love rival" is romantic, which is exactly why Aerith is considered Tifa's love rival in the first place. Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud and Aerith's "world" during Advent Children, probably because she's not sure if Cloud loves her.

So, you're just gonna leave out the part of that passage where it says that Tifa's complicated feelings for Aerith in Advent are largely due to Cloud "succubming to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself"?

Do you honestly wonder why you frequently get called dishonest?

Instead of becoming the romantic partner Cloud potentially saw in Tifa during the HAHW scene, he was faced with someone who was constantly nagging him and telling him what he should and should not do. Tifa's nagging behavior (which is a huge turn-off for Cloud, which is why he refuses to talk to her at some points) is confirmed by Nomura when he says Tifa feels a "maternal bond to Cloud".

Two things:

1) Nomura never said that Tifa has a maternal bond to Cloud; I know the quote you're referring to, but it was heavily distorted in translation; he only said that she has to look after Cloud in addition to looking after the kids
2) Nomura has directly said that Tifa is not naggy; "using words to help lead Cloud to his own conclusions, instead of constant lecture, is a defining quality of Tifa’s personality"; hell, the statement comes from the same book that mistranslation you mentioned is in

Again, you wonder why people call you dishonest?

The behavior Tifa exhibits toward Cloud during CoT and AC is that of a Mother to a child: always telling Cloud what to do, what not to do, nagging him, etc.

Yeah, none of that ever happens. Ever.

This behavior is exactly why Nomura confirms Tifa has a "maternal bond" towards Cloud. We see, with our own eyes, that this maternal bond drove Cloud away because he completely shuts Tifa off at the end of CoT and repeatedly during AC.

Except we've been told multiple times -- including by Nomura -- that Cloud was happy at home with Tifa and the kids, and we've also been told multiple times that guilt and geostigma are what drove Cloud away.

To me, the real-life manifestations of Tifa's maternal bond toward Cloud drove him away and ruined any possibility of a romantic relationship between them.

Then you are schizophrenic.

Then you have been misled. I've placed the proof in front of your eyes. The line does not identify Cloud specifically; it identifies 生きている人 -- "living people," "those who are living," "living persons," etc. If you refuse to so much as open a single damned online translator (those be links; click them), then that is your problem, not mine.

"The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him." ~Nomura; Distance Interview

You can see this quote for yourself if you watch the special features disc for Advent Children.

And you can get a more accurate version of that last line if you would stop being lazy and dishonest.

The way we see Cloud and Aerith connecting in the flower fields, the hand reach scene, Aerith using her Church to bring Denzel to Cloud ...

She never did that. Cloud and Tifa interpreted it that way, but absolutely nothing has ever given an indication that Aerith played a hand in Denzel finding his way to that church.

If Cloud and Aerith can interact both physically and spiritually, I see no reason to assume a relationship can't continue between them (especially when we consider that love beyond death is a theme SE has repeated with several FF couples).

pg. 578 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega
----
The people she had been close to, such as her adoptive mother, Elmyra, and the comrades she had journeyed with to save the Planet; as well as the people she knew only a little, and those she may have met in the future, but would now never see ― the truth was that she could no longer associate with "living people."

But she does connect with those who are living despite this quote. Maybe it is an inconsistency from SE? Maybe it means she can no longer associate with living people the same way she did while she was alive?

The fact is -- SE has shown us that Aerith CAN and DOES communicate with the living. Aerith helped Tifa get safely into Cloud's mind using mako, Nomura says Cloud hears Aerith's voice whispering, and Aerith connects with everyone during AC through the use of Great Gospel. We also see Cloud and Aerith connecting spiritually throughout AC.

So my question to you is: does something change in the lifestream after AC that now makes Aerith unable to connect with the living?

Aerith briefly interacts with people who needed her during Advent Children, yes. Then she leaves. That's it. The end.

The bottom line is: Aerith is able to connect with the living despite this quote. That means that when it says she can no longer "associate" with living people, it probably means she can't associate with living people like she did when she was alive.

No kidding.

And despite having the ability to do it, she's not going to keep doing it since it defies the natural order of things. Which, you know, Cetra aren't interested in defiling.

Case of the Lifestream White makes it clear that Aerith would have never even contacted Cloud again if not for the crisis at hand. Not only that, but the only reason she didn't let herself diffuse into the Lifestream after FFVII was because she could sense something wrong with it (Sephiroth).

Have you actually read Case of the Lifestream?:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...estream-black-and-lifestream-white/#more-3881

I'd also like to point this out. It's an excerpt from an essay I was reading the other day:
"Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

So, what is important in this quote? Because there are CloTis who are quite comfortable accepting the fact that Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Sephiroth, but they refuse to accept that Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Aerith. Why? Because, if Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Aerith, despite the fact that she's dead, it makes their "Cloud can't be with Aerith because she's dead" argument null and void.

No one has ever said he can't do those things because she is dead. What is said is that it isn't natural for the living and the dead to interact and that Aerith departs once her work is finished.

Precisely what we have been told in the official materials.

The credits don't leave us with the final impression that Cloud is with Tifa and the children, the final impression we are left with is that Cloud is by himself, riding through flower fields, still searching for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.

Yeah, no.

The final scenes of Cloud we're left with are him taking a day off work after riding through those flowerfields to go home and spend the day with his family, and then him with Denzel, honoring Zack's legacy.

You are literally inventing a different story than the one presented in the film.

That last part is you editorializing, not what SE actually said.

“The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…"

The quote doesn't say, "the people around him" are his Promised Land. The quote specifically says the "PLACE" where he awakens is his Promised Land. The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church. Period.

Except the Promised Land is where a person finds their supreme happiness, and Cloud had been fucking miserable up to that point despite staying in the church. So, no.

He's happy because of all the descriptions in that scene -- his guilt lifted, the children cured, and his friends and family with him.

It only seems logical to assume the man has an actual bedroom.

No it doesn't. It's not as though this is Cloud's old childhood house. It's not as though Cloud bought this house new. He moved into Seventh Heaven after it had already been established as a residence for other people, which means they are probably making do with the space they have available.

He built the place with his own damn hands.

Still wonder why people call you dishonest?

The fact that SE included a bed in Cloud's personal room, suggests that because he moved into Seventh Heaven long after it had already been a residence for other people, suggests that they were doing the best they could with the space they had available.

Take a laxative, dude. Being that full of crap could kill you.

Anyway --

I agree that the relationship charts have been inconsistent for other couples ....

Fucking finally.

... except Cloud and Tifa.

Oh, for fuck's sake. That will be the title of the LTD's biography.

I also agree that the relationship charts don't always refer to the beginning of a relationship. I take that position back. So I don't care to debate that point, either.

Okay, great.

Therefore, I do not care to debate the inconsistencies of other couples because the argument does not apply to Cloud and Tifa.

The argument applies to the charts themselves. Call it argumentum ad chartulam if you'd like, but if the charts haven't even demonstrated themselves as comprehensive and consistent, then they can't override detailed bodies of prose.

And I explained in my recent post why SE *has* consistently described Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" despite you saying they don't.

Well, let's take a look.

2. You say that Cloud and Tifa were described as "living together" in one of the charts. But that was Cloud's connection to Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. Therefore, that chart is *not* talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship. That chart is simply talking about who does Cloud live with. And the answer to that question is: he lives with Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. In other words, that chart is not telling us how Cloud's relationship specifically pertains to each one of those characters, it is telling us that he lives with all three of them. But the fact is, Cloud has a separate and unique relationship with all of the people he lives with.

True, Cloud has a separate and unique relationship with all three of them. However, he does also live with all three, and -- going by the reasoning you have been using -- if they wanted to emphasize something else, they would have. Since these charts are where the buck stops, according to you.

They bothered to give Cloud a direct arrow between himself and Rufus, after all, even though Rufus is part of a group on the chart. They bothered to have a direct arrow between Rufus and Kadaj, though both are part of groups. They even have one directly from Kadaj to Cloud.

So, which is it? Does what's on the charts describe everything that there is to know, or -- as you've pointed out yourself with those Cloud lives with -- are there relationships beyond those described on the charts?

And you're still ignoring the Dirge chart that doesn't have a description of any sort between Cloud and Tifa.

3. What stops Cloud and Tifa from being childhood friends AND living together?

Nothing! This is one of the points people have been making to you since you brought up the goddamn charts. Cloud and Tifa being described as "childhood friends" does not preclude them being other things in addition to childhood friends.

You argue that they can't be more (i.e. "their relationship hasn't evolved") because of the fuckdamn charts.

God Almighty, are you really using this double-standard now? Are you really arguing that Cloud and Tifa can't be more than childhood friends because some of the charts indicate no evolution in their relationship, and then -- as a defense of that position when another chart is pointed out -- claiming that they can be both childhood friends and more than what is on those charts?

This is the most self-defeating argument that has ever appeared in the LTD. And that is one hell of an accomplishment.

How are both descriptions inconsistent with one another?

"Childhood friends" is not the same words as "living together." The statuses aren't mutually exclusive. The descriptions are not the same, however. Which you insist they have been across the board.

4. Despite all of the inconsistencies, it appears that virtually every canon couple is either given a romantic description at one point, or they are shown with mutual favor arrows at one point. In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows, it seems that in at least one chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

So if anything, the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

Not every couple is described that way at some point, no. Cid and Shera never have been. Zell and the library girl never were. Not even Irvine and Selphie -- the two charts for FFVIII just say that he favors/loves her. The charts don't reflect the ending of the game where it seems they've now established something since she gets jealous when he waves at those other girls.

By the way, I did ask espritduo to scan X-2's chart from the 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character guide, and it does refer to Wakka and Lulu as married at that point:

http://www.espritduo.com/images/FFX2 Character Chart.png

Thought you would want to know.

As you said, Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a "euphemism for love," according to you. Then, Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows". The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the rule not the exception that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

Additionally, there are more charts for FFVII than any other FF. Funny how even though there are less charts for the other FF's, they almost always show in one of the charts that the *main* couple has mutual romantic feelings. But even though FFVII has more charts than any other FF, Cloud and Tifa are virtually the only main canon couple to *NEVER* be described romantically. Again -- this raises a huge red flag because the one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are never given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

Yet Cloud and Tifa have more references to their moment of confession than any other couple in the entire series, as well as two actual paragraphs in two separate books that explicitly say they have had mutual koui/"favor"/"love" for one another for many years.

Why are you acting like those things don't exist? The charts do not override the rest. You take them all together.

So if you could direct me to what part of your post is not referring to these three things, I would be happy to respond.

Even with my responses concerning those three things removed, that still leaves more than half the post (newly omitted portions noted by presence of "..."):

Spoiler: Click here for what's left

First, I have some honest questions:

Does anyone honestly think it is not at all strange that SE told us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed between the FFVII and AC charts, but did not do the same for Cloud and Tifa?

In all honesty, no. Given what a clusterfuck the charts are in the first place, I don't know why anyone would look to them for detailed illumination.

For that matter, you can't even really call that a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship -- it's a one-way arrow from Cloud to Aerith saying that he blames himself for her death.

And what about Zack and Cloud? What the hell happened there? Why are they "best friends" on all the OG charts and then suddenly "one-time best friends" on the AC chart? Even in the same book?

What kind of "evolution" is that? Zack was already dead when FFVII began. Why wasn't he "one-time best friend" on the OG charts too? How did he get demoted from FFVII to AC when he was already dead before both of them started?

Does anyone honestly think that if SE *officially* believes that Cloud and Tifa are *canon* by the time of AC, that they would use the same description for both the FFVII chart and AC chart (ie: "childhood friends")?

Honestly, yes.

SE had the *perfect* opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC. Yet, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts. That, my friend, tells us a lot about SE and what their beliefs are (especially because they highlighted how Cloud and Aeith's relationship changed with the two charts)

Why would SE neglect the *canon* couples relationship transformation when they had the *perfect* opportunity to show this transformation?

The perfect opportunity is literally everything they've published -- the guide books, the games, the novellas, the movie; all of it.

What specifically changed between AC and DC that should be highlighted in Cloud and Tifa's relationship chart?

I'm looking for you to tell me. Nothing changed across the charts for BC, CC and LO, but that didn't stop them from using the "childhood friends" description each time, did it?

...

If a relationship began as "childhood friends" and never moved beyond a friendship, why would there be a change in the relationship description?

I don't know, but -- based on what you said right above -- you seem to think that the charts shouldn't all be the same: "What specifically changed between AC and DC that should be highlighted in Cloud and Tifa's relationship chart?"

You said it was unnecesary for the Dirge chart to provide an additional description because nothing changed between Advent and Dirge. Now you're saying that identical descriptions were provided for BC, CC and LO due to the fact nothing had changed.

So, which is it? Do we provide no description at all if there's no change from one title to the next or do we need to identify that lack of change on every chart when there isn't one?

Right now, you're being as inconsistent with your arguments about the charts as the charts themselves.

...

Applying an inconsistency about another couple to Cloud and Tifa is irrelevant. You have to explain how the inconsistency argument applies to each individual pairing.

I already have explained it with regard to Cloud and Tifa. Several times.

And, yes, the charts need to be consistently consistent if we're going to assign them any grand importance beyond the stubs they offer.

You can't simply dismiss official relationship charts simply because they are sometimes inconsistent.

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying there's more beyond them. Not once have I said to throw them away. I've only said that they aren't the ultimate in anything. "The buck doesn't stop here" is not the same as "we don't even have to look at this."

I'm saying look at them, acknowledge them for what they are, then move on to the rest of what is available.

If the charts aren't directly inconsistent for Cloud and Tifa's relationship, they are still relevant for the LTD.

They had the potential to be relevant. They aren't, though.

You put too much weight in these charts that were obviously never meant to be scrutinized to this degree.

You are simply trying to dismiss official evidence that does not support Cloti.

Bull. I'm not the one picking up a book that's hundreds of pages thick, looking at a single interrelations chart that's woefully lacking in details, then closing the book, setting it down and saying that I know all I need to know.

...

I did not say that Cloud and Tifa *need* Aerith's permission. I said that *if* she had given Cloud permission to *love* Tifa, it would be clear evidence from SE that Cloud and Tifa are the *canon* couple.

Obviously Cloud and Tifa don't need Aerith's permission, but I was specifically comparing it to Celes x Locke.

Sorry we misunderstood you, but I still call bull on this notion. In Maiden, Aerith comes to regard the living world as something she is no longer part of and acknowledges that she can no longer have relationships with the living as she did when she was alive. She then entrusts her feelings for Cloud to Tifa -- "the one who will live with Cloud" -- and tells Tifa to take care of him.

How does this not sound like the sort of blessing Rachel gave to Locke?

Relevant questions regarding Cloud's bed:
1. Given the circumstances of Midgar at that time, it doesn't surprise me that Cloud doesn't have a properly furnished room. But the lack of other furniture is irrelevant and beside the point.

You mean the same circumstances where everybody else in the house has nice furniture and nice bedding, and where Cloud himself has a fancy, customized bike with fancy, customized clothing and jewelry (even a matching cellphone)?

2. How does a lack of furniture prevent someone from sleeping in a bed?

Prevents it from being a private, personal living space. As does half the door being glass and the other half being a vent with widely-spaced slats.

3. Who else sleeps in that bed if not Cloud?

No one has said he doesn't use it. It's when and how much he uses it that are in question.

4. Did SE really include a "guest bed" for the hell of it?

They wouldn't have a guest bed for Barret when he comes to Edge? Where does he sleep? Where did he sleep that first week after Seventh Heaven was opened?

5. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it is only reasonable to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

Officially only called his office. Twice. Not his room. For what I wish would be the last time.



And I am now done discussing those ridiculous charts unless you can say something new about them -- like acknowledging how little sense it makes to base your whole understanding on them at the exclusion of more detailed resources found elsewhere.

Aerith also tells Cloud that he doesn't belong with her "yet".

And now you're literally inventing shit that was never said in the movie. At all. Not even close.

I mean, what the holy hell?

To me, this says that when the day finally comes for Cloud to return to the lifestream, Cloud and Aerith will be reunited and Cloud will finally be together with Aerith, which is what he always wanted, IMO.

If Cloud wanted to do that, there's a much easier and faster way to get there. Christianity might care about suicide, but the Lifestream doesn't seem to give a shit.

By the way, is there a reason you do stuff like this?:

You, know, there’s a chocobo on Denzel’s desk, too. SE adds things to the house. They set the place up, very much like any normal, standard home. I believe Ryu has even mentioned a bed in his father’s office. SE has made ACC’s setting, very much like a contemporary dwelling, yet they surprisingly missed putting a chair in for Cloud’s desk.

So SE adding a chocobo to Denzel's desk is relevant how?

Are you insinuating that adding a random chocobo is similar to adding a bed in Cloud's room?

Bottom line: Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, or until we see a guest sleep in the bed found in Cloud's room, it is only reasonable to assume that Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

As for your third point, I believe Tres has already pointed out that that room is Cloud’s office. Cloud can have an office and a room. How is this so difficult to comprehend? Oh, it’s because Cloud’s possibly having another room isn’t mentioned specifically by SE, right? Does SE have to provide that as evidence, as well? You must have very high standards for SE, BB, if you say yes to that question.

OK. Cloud has a bed/office that has a bed in it. A bed is for sleeping. Who sleeps there if not Cloud? Why did SE include a bed in the four walls that Cloud considers his own?

Bottom line: Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, or until we see a guest sleep in the bed found in Cloud's room, it is only reasonable to assume that Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

By the way, is there a reason you do stuff like this?

Copy and paste the same stuff over and over, I mean -- even within the same post?

By the way, is there a reason you do stuff like this?

It's annoying, it's insulting and it makes you sound like a goddamn automaton.

By the way, is there a reason you do stuff like this?

We don't need your entire worldview reiterated every single post. We know what it is. We can remember from one post to the next.

By the way, is there a reason you do stuff like this?

Please speak like you would in normal conversation.

Finally, since you can't seem to address it, it bears repeating once again:

When there is a love triangle, evidence will be provided that supports TWO pairings. This means in order to decide which couple is canon over the other ...

And here we return to the root of your misconceptions.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

BB is still arguing that the Aerith date ends magically!? It ends the way all the other dates do, with Cait Sith stealing the Keystone and giving it to Tseng. Totally a magic fairytale ending.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I wonder if Blankypoo sees Love Triangle and other such struggles as something of a tug of war, where any 'ground' gained by one party necessarily means the loss of 'ground' by the other, in some sort of Zero Sum game of romance.

This is a particularly silly notion.

Also, it strikes me, Fei and Elly in Xenogears is- apart from the whole no relationship after death thing- kind of the relationship that the Cleriths wish Cloud and Aerith had.

Spoiler: Seriously, I'm ruining a large part of the plot here

Not only is it a tragic love story of a man losing his lover, it happens multiple times over multiple lifetimes, with Fei now only finally rescuing Elly from a tragic fate- or bringing her back from it- in this one life because he defeats the entity who was responsible for their past lives being shit, directly or indirectly.

The difference being, of course, that this romance and its results and how much it means to Fei- AFTER Fei has admitted and acted upon his own feelings- and has meant in past lives- is a thing specifically addressed in XG. What happens in FF7 would instead be the equivalent of Fei deciding to hook up with Maria after the whole Miang thing happened.

 

[Strangelove]

BB is still arguing that the Aerith date ends magically!? It ends the way all the other dates do, with Cait Sith stealing the Keystone and giving it to Tseng. Totally a magic fairytale ending.

this is how this whole debate has gone over the years

- something is brought up
- it is pointed out how that something is incorrect
- after a brief time has passed, the same something is brought up again

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Cleris interpretation of the scene where Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her:

Cloud's office is referred to as simply his "office" twice in fucking CoT. I'm going to assume that's what it is.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Cleris interpretation of the scene where Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her:

Cloud's office is referred to as simply his "office" twice in fucking CoT. I'm going to assume that's what it is.

Switch the genders and you have a pretty accurate depiction of Cloud's childhood.

 

[Wolfmania]

I actually think that the relationship Clerith's wished that Cloud and Aerith had would be something almost identical to what Kenshin and Tomoe had in the RK manga and Tsuioku-hen. But pleaaaaaaase. They're not even close. Still, I may just be biased to that one pairing, since I do think it's the best pairing in manga/anime - ever!

But the point stands. Clerith's think that she soothed Cloud's wounded soul, that she taught him how to love again, and she saw him for the real him, loved that and all. And I just think that's gross exaggeration, I feel like Clerith's relationship never even came close to reaching that kind of depth. I honestly think that when Aerith died, she was only beguinning to understand that the real Cloud was buried. I think she only came to really know him after she died.

Hence, I cant see Clerith's relationship as that deep.

 

[null]

If Cloud loves both, then there is no canon couple, IMO.

It shows Cloud in two canon scenes of romance with his two love interests on the "For The One I Love" page. This, in addition to the two koibito quotes, mean that Coud has *love* for both Aerith and Tifa.

So yes, I agree with you, both pairings are canon.

I do find it pretty impressive that Cloud and Tifa can be in love and live together, whilst not being in a relationship and keeping the romance out of the family. Separating personal and family lives, very professional.

 

[BlankBeat]

Or you could get off your Interweb-ass and read hito's long post demonstrating the use of "shiranai" (知らな&#12356 as "I don't care," finally make use of an online translator, or just so much as do a Google search.

If Nomura wanted to put an end to the constant barrage of questions he received about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, it would seem as though he would put an end to it IF there was an official answer. But since there isn't an official answer, Nomura isn't able to give an answer.

In other words, *EVEN IF* we accept your translation, the fact that Nomura doesn't say anything definitively about Cloud and Tifa's relationship suggests to me that there isn't a definitive answer, otherwise he would tell us the answer to put an end to the constant barrage of fans inquiring about it.

Therefore, by Nomura not giving us a definitive answer, it matches his quote where he says he believes that everyone is free to interpret SE's work differently, including if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

"The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer." ~Nomura

If you claim the joyful ending of Advent Children and an official comment like "they finally reach a commune with each other and return to living together once again" were meant to convey a "completely incompatible" relationship, then you're just being dishonest.

How does returning to the same situation mean that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship?

As has been pointed out to you countless times: If Tifa already knew Cloud didn't love her, she wouldn't need to ask. You don't hear people who don't know asking this question nearly as often as you hear people in relationships asking.

I don't disagree that Cloud and Tifa were more than friends and less than lovers. This is made clear by the HAHW scene. But because of numerous reasons, it is not clear that a romantic relationship was established after the HAHW scene because 1. the relationship charts 2. Nomura's quote 3. Nojima's premise that things "aren't going well" between Cloud and Tifa 4. Cloud having a bed in his room 5. the family being formed from a non-romantic place with Barret and Marlene.

All of this suggests that whatever feelings were expressed during the HAHW scene between Cloud and Tifa were not necessarily present during AC, which is exactly why Tifa asked Cloud if he loved her.

In other words, based on what we see in CoT and AC, in addition to Nojima's premise and Nomura's quote, I'm assuming things didn't go the way Tifa had hoped they would after the HAHW scene, which is why she is doubting Cloud's love for her.

Because their intimate physical contact was off-screen due to the nature of that physical contact. But we've been told they had such contact.

Since expressing mutual feelings does not always lead to a romantic relationship, what evidence of a romantic relationship do you have after the HAHW scene? I'm not asking about the supposed sex Cloud and Tifa had the night before they thought the world was going to end, I'm asking you very directly: what undeniable evidence do you have after the HAHW scene that expressing mutual feelings turned into a romantic relationship?

Also, Cloud doesn't respond because he doesn't understand the question. He wakes up to her asking him something, then she changes the question.

I'm looking at SE's intent. For whatever reason, SE wanted us to see a conversation between Cloud and Tifa where she asks Cloud if he loves her, and he doesn't give her a response. Why would SE include this scene if not to suggest Cloud might not love her?

Furthermore, the fact that Tifa asks the question means their relationship after the HAHW scene had not gone as she had anticipated. We know this for a fact based on Nomura's quote and Nojima's premise that things "are't going well" between them. Whatever was expressed during the HAHW scene was not necessarily there during AC, which is why Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her.

'Cause she's an insecure overthinker.

To say she asked the question simply because she's insecure ignores the context of their relationship, Nojima's premise, and Nomura's quote.

Tifa asked the question based on what we see in CoT and AC -- which is that their relationship had regressed to the point where Tifa wasn't even sure if Cloud felt the way he did during the HAHW scene.

Again -- I'm asking you very directly: what undeniable evidence do you have after the HAHW scene that expressing mutual feelings turned into a romantic relationship?

'Cause I'm capable of synthesizing data in my brain and don't ignore direct statements like "Cloud and Tifa have loved one another for many years."

That's a direct statement?

And, hey, nevermind Cloud and Tifa having an intimate confession of romantic feelings that officially, unequivocally involves a physically intimate display of those feelings! That's not a romantic activity!

I don't deny the HAHW scene. I deny that a romantic relationship developed after it.

Where is an undeniable piece of romantic evidence after the HAHW scene that proves they are in a relationship? An example of this would be a marriage, a kiss, sleeping in the same bed, an "I love you", etc.

Yes, both of those are canon. However, I would very much like to know where in the date that Cloud confesses romantic feelings.

Not saying he doesn't have them. I just want to know where he confesses them.

Who cares if Aerith didn't know Cloud loved her? That's not the question being asked.

The question is "Who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "Which couple expressed mutual feelings?"

And although it is typically the case that expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship begins, that is not what happened in Cloud and Tifa's situation because…

1. Cloud, Tifa and Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene. Marlene is Barret's daughter.

2. This family was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

3. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid and Shera in FFVII?

4. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene

5. Nomura doesn't know the nature of their relationship *AFTER* the HAHW scene

6. The relationship chart for AC lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends. The AC chart is referring to AC, which is *AFTER* the HAHW scene.

7. Cloud has a separate bed in his room after the HAHW scene

8. Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it's just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

~~"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together."~~

[It says that the "three of them (Cloud, Tifa, Marlene)" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey". This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.]

All 8 points tell me that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Oh, bullshit. Going on a date -- especially one where the other person pushes you out the door rather than you bounding out on your own -- doesn't mean you have romantic feelings.

Again, not saying he doesn't have them. Disagreeing with your reasoning.

The Cloud x Aerith date was included on the "For The One I Love" page. This means that the canon Cloud x Aerith date proves Cloud has love for Aerith because it was included on the "For The One I Love" page.

And again, the caption is irrelevant because we know the date is canon based on other information. The only love triangle on the FTOIL page where the hero is pictured in two canon scenes of romance with both of his love interests is the FFVII love triangle.

More bullcrap. Almost all of them using romantic phrasing identical to the descriptions used for romantic moments of confession involving other FF couples.

But you know this.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Although this is a reasonable assumption, it is *NOT* always the case that expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship begins.

As we can see, Cloud and Tifa are living in a world of very rare and unique circumstances that I believe prevented them from ever turning their mutual feelings into a romantic relationship. I've listed the 8 reasons why I believe this above.

It's been stated that it is the outcome. That's even better.

The CxA date has always been stated as the outcome, too.

Homage means dick all with regard to whether they were life-and-death situations. They were.

And the entire team was involved in that homage.

SE talks about this homage specifically pertaining to Cloud and Aerith. Therefore, given the context of their relationship, the hand reach scene is a romantic homage.

I trust that you saw my posts detailing the great multitude of hand-reach scenes in KH and FF that demonstrate how little claim romance has to such scenes?

I'm comparing hand reach scenes between other romantic couples.

Why would I compare apples to oranges?

So Aerith isn't jealous of Cloud and Tifa's relationship? Just Tifa getting to be the one who will get to live with and look after Cloud? And that isn't in any way an elaborate euphemism for "their relationship"?

Yet Tifa being anxious that Cloud might think things would have gone better with a chick he hasn't talked to in two years (since she's dead) constitutes being jealous of an actual relationship?

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about when I say you take the opposite of an intuitive reading of things.

Aerith is jealous that Tifa is alive. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tifa is stated as being jealous of the "world" her "love rival" was forming with Cloud.

HUGE difference.

Two things:

1) Nomura never said that Tifa has a maternal bond to Cloud; I know the quote you're referring to, but it was heavily distorted in translation; he only said that she has to look after Cloud in addition to looking after the kids
2) Nomura has directly said that Tifa is not naggy; "using words to help lead Cloud to his own conclusions, instead of constant lecture, is a defining quality of Tifa’s personality"; hell, the statement comes from the same book that mistranslation you mentioned is in

Again, you wonder why people call you dishonest?

If you can't see how Tifa's Mother-like behavior drove Cloud to start ignoring her, well, then that's simply a difference of opinion between us.

Except we've been told multiple times -- including by Nomura -- that Cloud was happy at home with Tifa and the kids, and we've also been told multiple times that guilt and geostigma are what drove Cloud away.

We also have evidence that Cloud wasn't happy living with Tifa and the kids, too. It is possible for Cloud to be both happy and unhappy with his living situation at different points in time.

And you can get a more accurate version of that last line if you would stop being lazy and dishonest.

Watch the special features disc.

She never did that. Cloud and Tifa interpreted it that way, but absolutely nothing has ever given an indication that Aerith played a hand in Denzel finding his way to that church.

Why would SE have Cloud and Tifa tell us they thought Aerith brought Denzel to them if SE didn't want to suggest that's what happened?

If Cloud and Tifa think Aerith brought Denzel to them, that's good enough for me, IMO.

Aerith briefly interacts with people who needed her during Advent Children, yes. Then she leaves. That's it. The end.

Which is why Cloud is continuing to search for ways to connect with Aerith during the credits. Much like Yuna does after FFX.

Yeah, no.

The final scenes of Cloud we're left with are him taking a day off work after riding through those flowerfields to go home and spend the day with his family, and then him with Denzel, honoring Zack's legacy.

You are literally inventing a different story than the one presented in the film.

Flower fields = a place Cloud and Aerith have connected spiritually.
Flowers = Aerith according to SE
Yellow and white flowers filmed in Hawaii = same flowers in Aerith's Church

Cloud seen riding around yellow/white flower fields in both the AC and ACC credits = Connection to Aerith

Except the Promised Land is where a person finds their supreme happiness, and Cloud had been fucking miserable up to that point despite staying in the church. So, no.

He's happy because of all the descriptions in that scene -- his guilt lifted, the children cured, and his friends and family with him.

Cloud says he wants to find Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.

Then, during AC, Cloud realizes that Aerith will always be with him, so his Promised Land is wherever Aerith is -- which is why it says Cloud's Promised Land is the place where he awakens (ie: the place where he sees Aerith)

And the reason I connect this quote more to Aerith is because of Cloud's line at the end of FFVII where he says he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

The argument applies to the charts themselves. Call it argumentum ad chartulam if you'd like, but if the charts haven't even demonstrated themselves as comprehensive and consistent, then they can't override detailed bodies of prose.

The charts consistently call Cloud and Tifa "childhood friends", even in the AC chart, which would have been the perfect opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed from FFVII to AC. The bottom line is: we see no such change in their relationship description for FFVII and AC. Wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity to show us a change happened between their relationship *IF* a change did, in fact, happen on a canon basis?

True, Cloud has a separate and unique relationship with all three of them. However, he does also live with all three, and -- going by the reasoning you have been using -- if they wanted to emphasize something else, they would have. Since these charts are where the buck stops, according to you.

You were trying to make it seem as though the inconsistency argument applied to Cloud and Tifa. It doesn't.

In one of the charts they say Cloud lives with Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. That is describing who Cloud lives with, and he lives with all three of them. It is *NOT* describing Cloud's one-on-one relationship with any of them.

So, which is it? Does what's on the charts describe everything that there is to know, or -- as you've pointed out yourself with those Cloud lives with -- are there relationships beyond those described on the charts?

When there are multiple arrows going from Cloud to multiple people with one description, that description is Cloud's relationship as it pertains to all three of them.

When there is one arrow going from one character to another with one description, that is talking about those two characters one-on-one relationship.

Nothing! This is one of the points people have been making to you since you brought up the goddamn charts. Cloud and Tifa being described as "childhood friends" does not preclude them being other things in addition to childhood friends.

You argue that they can't be more (i.e. "their relationship hasn't evolved") because of the fuckdamn charts.

God Almighty, are you really using this double-standard now? Are you really arguing that Cloud and Tifa can't be more than childhood friends because some of the charts indicate no evolution in their relationship, and then -- as a defense of that position when another chart is pointed out -- claiming that they can be both childhood friends and more than what is on those charts?

This is the most self-defeating argument that has ever appeared in the LTD. And that is one hell of an accomplishment.

My point is that for most of the charts they have been "all encompassing". However, SE decided to do something unique in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania by providing both an FFVII chart and an AC chart.

The fact that SE did not change Cloud and Tifa's description for the AC chart when supposedly the HAHW scene made them the canon couple, raises a huge red flag, IMO.

Not every couple is described that way at some point, no. Cid and Shera never have been. Zell and the library girl never were. Not even Irvine and Selphie -- the two charts for FFVIII just say that he favors/loves her. The charts don't reflect the ending of the game where it seems they've now established something since she gets jealous when he waves at those other girls.

By the way, I did ask espritduo to scan X-2's chart from the 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character guide, and it does refer to Wakka and Lulu as married at that point:


http://www.espritduo.com/images/FFX2 Character Chart.png

Thought you would want to know.

I'd like to know what it does say between Lulu and Wakka in the FFX-2 chart. Is it different than the FFX chart?

My point has been all along that Cloud and Tifa are described with the EXACT SAME description in the FFVII chart and the AC chart. It's not necessarily the description I have a problem with, it's the *LACK OF CHANGE* I have a problem with. So, are Lulu and Wakka described the same way in both of their charts like Cloud and Tifa are?

And even though Cid x Shera aren't a *MAIN* FF couples, I shall entertain this point. Cid and Shera's chart might be referring to FFVII *only*. And since they don't get married until AFTER FFVII is over, it is unfair to expect a chart talking about FFVII only to show them as romantic partners. SE created both an FFVII chart and an AC chart at one point, so we can't say for certain what time period the relationship chart is talking about for Cid x Shera.

However, I'm comparing apples to apples. No one would ever consider Cid and Shera a *main* Final Fantasy couple.

From what I understand, Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a euphemism for love according to Tres. Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows" in one of their charts.

The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the *RULE* not the *EXCEPTION* that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows in every chart, it seems that in at least *one* chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

The one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are *never* given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

Yet Cloud and Tifa have more references to their moment of confession than any other couple in the entire series, as well as two actual paragraphs in two separate books that explicitly say they have had mutual koui/"favor"/"love" for one another for many years.

Why are you acting like those things don't exist? The charts do not override the rest. You take them all together.

Where is the romantic evidence that a relationship began after the HAHW scene?

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Again -- I'm asking you very directly: what undeniable evidence do you have after the HAHW scene that expressing mutual feelings turned into a romantic relationship?

And here we return to the root of your misconceptions.

You don't think it is at all weird that out of the 4 possible love triangles, FFVII is the only love triangle that has both pairings on the FTOIL page?

To me, this suggests that all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* FFVII.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, I'm done with you, BlankBeat. Don't look for another reply from me for you to outright ignore half of what I say and then "respond" to the rest with the very thing I had been responding to. Done. For good.

Don't PM me about this topic don't look for a response from me about this topic. I advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on your dishonest ways as well. Just stop.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, I'm done with you, BlankBeat. Don't look for another reply from me for you to outright ignore half of what I say and then "respond" to the rest with the very thing I had been responding to. Done. For good.

Don't PM me about this topic don't look for a response from me about this topic. I advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on your dishonest ways as well. Just stop.

 

[BlankBeat]

Okay, I'm done with you, BlankBeat. Don't look for another reply from me for you to outright ignore half of what I say and then "respond" to the rest with the very thing I had been responding to. Done. For good.

Don't PM me about this topic don't look for a response from me about this topic. I advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on your dishonest ways as well. Just stop.

Okay.

Since Hawkeye doesn't want to debate with me, I will address the points I brought up to everyone because I would like to debate them.

What does it mean that out of the 4 love triangles, FFVII is the only love triangle where the hero is pictured with both of his love interests on the FTOIL page?

To me, this suggests that all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* FFVII.

Are the HAHW scene and the CxA date equal?

The Cloud x Aerith date was included on the "For The One I Love" page. This means that the canon Cloud x Aerith date proves Cloud has love for Aerith because it was included on the "For The One I Love" page.

And again, the caption is irrelevant because we know the date is canon based on other information. The only love triangle on the FTOIL page where the hero is pictured in two canon scenes of romance with both of his love interests is the FFVII love triangle.

Remember: "Which couple expressed mutual feelings?" is not the question. The question is, "Who does Cloud love?"

Based on the two koibito quotes and the FTOIL page, Cloud has love for both Aerith and Tifa.

Why did Tifa ask Cloud if he loved her?

1. I'm looking at SE's intent. For whatever reason, SE wanted us to see a conversation between Cloud and Tifa where she asks Cloud if he loves her, and he doesn't give her a response. Why would SE include this scene if not to suggest Cloud might not love her?

2. The fact that Tifa asks the question means their relationship after the HAHW scene had not gone as she had anticipated. We know this for a fact based on Nomura's quote and Nojima's premise that things "are't going well" between them. Whatever was expressed during the HAHW scene was not necessarily there during AC, which is why Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her.

Did Tifa ask Cloud if he loved her simply because she's incesure?

1. To say she asked the question simply because she's insecure ignores the context of their relationship, Nojima's premise, and Nomura's quote.

2. Tifa asked the question based on what we see in CoT and AC -- which is that their relationship had regressed to the point where Tifa wasn't even sure if Cloud felt the way he did during the HAHW scene.

Why is there no difference between Cloud and Tifa's FFVII relationship chart and their AC relationship chart?

The relationship charts consistently call Cloud and Tifa "childhood friends", even in the AC chart, which would have been the perfect opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed from FFVII to AC. The bottom line is: we see no such change in their relationship description for FFVII and AC. Wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity to show us a change happened between their relationship *IF* a change did, in fact, happen on a canon basis? To me, the charts don't show a change between their relationship because no such change occurred on a *canon* basis.

Does the inconsistency argument about the relationship charts apply to Cloud and Tifa?

In one of the charts they say Cloud lives with Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. That is describing who Cloud lives with, and he lives with all three of them. It is *NOT* describing Cloud's one-on-one relationship with any of them.

When there are multiple arrows going from Cloud to multiple people with one description, that description is Cloud's relationship as it pertains to all three of them.

When there is one arrow going from one character to another with one description, that is talking about those two characters one-on-one relationship.

All encompassing relationship charts vs. time specific relationship charts:

My point is that for most of the charts they have been "all encompassing". However, SE decided to do something unique in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania by providing both an FFVII chart and an AC chart.

When we consider SE showed a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship between the FFVII and AC charts, but the FFVII and AC charts showed no change for Cloud and Tifa's relationship, likely means Cloud and Tifa's relationship did not change on a canon basis between FFVII and AC.

The fact that SE did not change Cloud and Tifa's description for the AC chart when supposedly the HAHW scene made them the canon couple, raises a huge red flag, IMO.

What does a lack of change in the description mean regarding Cloud and Tifa's relationship?

My point has been all along that Cloud and Tifa are described with the EXACT SAME description in the FFVII chart and the AC chart. It's not necessarily the description I have a problem with, it's the *LACK OF CHANGE* I have a problem with.

How does SE treat the other *MAIN* canon FF couples in the relationship charts?

From what I understand, Zidane x Dagger and Tidus x Yuna are described with "important existence," which is a euphemism for love according to Tres. Squall x Rinoa have mutual "favor arrows" in one of their charts.

The point I'm making is that out of the *main* FF couples, it appears that it is the *RULE* not the *EXCEPTION* that at one point or another, one of the charts tells us explicitly that they have mutual favor for one another.

In other words, although canon couples are not *always* described romantically or given mutual favor arrows in every chart, it seems that in at least *one* chart they are either given a romantic description, or they are given favor arrows.

The one inconsistency for Cloud and Tifa is that out of virtually all the canon couples, they are *never* given either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows.

What is an undeniable piece of romance between Cloud and Tifa *AFTER* the HAHW scene?

1. I don't deny the HAHW scene. I deny that a romantic relationship developed after it.

2. Where is an undeniable piece of romantic evidence after the HAHW scene that proves Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship? An example of this would be a marriage, a kiss, sleeping in the same bed, an "I love you", etc.

Just because two people express mutual feelings does not mean a relationship begins, especially when we consider:

1. Cloud, Tifa and Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene. Marlene is Barret's daughter.

2. This family was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

3. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid and Shera in FFVII?

4. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene

5. Nomura doesn't know the nature of their relationship *AFTER* the HAHW scene

6. The relationship chart for AC lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends. The AC chart is referring to AC, which is *AFTER* the HAHW scene.

7. Cloud has a separate bed in his room after the HAHW scene

8. Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it's just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

~~"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together."~~

[It says that the "three of them (Cloud, Tifa, Marlene)" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey". This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.]

All 8 points tell me that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

What is the difference between Tifa's jealously and Aerith's?

Aerith is jealous that Tifa is alive. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tifa is stated as being jealous of the "world" her "love rival" was forming with Cloud.

HUGE difference.

Did Aerith bring Denzel to Cloud?

Why would SE have Cloud and Tifa tell us they thought Aerith brought Denzel to them if SE didn't want to suggest that's what happened?

If Cloud and Tifa think Aerith brought Denzel to them, that's good enough for me, IMO.

What do the credits suggest about Cloud and Aerith's relationship?

Flower fields = a place Cloud and Aerith have connected spiritually.
Flowers = Aerith according to SE
Yellow and white flowers filmed in Hawaii = same flowers in Aerith's Church

Cloud seen riding around yellow/white flower fields in both the AC and ACC credits = Connection to Aerith

Why is Aerith's Church Cloud's Promised Land?

Cloud says he wants to find Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.

Then, during AC, Cloud realizes that Aerith will always be with him, so his Promised Land is wherever Aerith is -- which is why it says Cloud's Promised Land is the place where he awakens (ie: the place where he sees Aerith)

And the reason I connect this quote more to Aerith is because of Cloud's line at the end of FFVII where he says he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

Nomura's quote:

If Nomura wanted to put an end to the constant barrage of questions he received about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, it would seem as though he would put an end to it IF there was an official answer. But since there isn't an official answer, Nomura isn't able to give an answer.

In other words, *EVEN IF* we accept the Cloti translation, the fact that Nomura doesn't say anything definitively about Cloud and Tifa's relationship suggests to me that there isn't a definitive answer, otherwise he would tell us the answer to put an end to the constant barrage of fans inquiring about it.

Therefore, by Nomura not giving us a definitive answer, it matches his quote where he says he believes that everyone is free to interpret SE's work differently, including if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

"The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer." ~Nomura

 

[Lex]

Listen, I genuinely don't want to sound like an asshole here, but you're just copying and pasting all of your previous arguments, which have all been argued out already. At this point I just don't see why anyone should bother responding, as Tres already said.

You need to either come up with new arguments or drop it, because reading one of your posts is like entering an interdimensional rift or something, it's just silly to repeat yourself when everyone - and I mean everyone (there are people who have posted in response to you that normally don't set foot in this poisonous thread) - has refuted everything you've said.

If you can't accept that they've been disproven, just move on. You're essentially just spamming the thread now.

If someone has the patience it might be a good idea to go back through your posts and tally up how many times you've repeated the same points and how many times they've been debunked, as well as collate the dishonesty/ Freudian slips in your posts. Maybe then you'll see how mental this whole thing is.

EDIT: And I'm glad you're finally posting in other threads. Maybe try and give this thread a break for a while and keep posting elsewhere?

 

[Dashell]

Okay, I'm done with you, BlankBeat. Don't look for another reply from me for you to outright ignore half of what I say and then "respond" to the rest with the very thing I had been responding to. Done. For good.

Don't PM me about this topic don't look for a response from me about this topic. I advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on your dishonest ways as well. Just stop.

So done, he posted it twice

 

[BlankBeat]

If you can't accept that they've been disproven

Lawlz



EDIT: One of the reasons I c/p answers is because multiple users will reply to my posts with the exact same "rebuttals". Why would I type out an entirely new rebuttal for each user when everyone here uses the same Cloti arguments?

Anyway -- it's been real TLS.

The canon Emperor Cloud and the canon Empress Aerith say bye TLS! [notice Cloud's cute hand waving bye while Aerith's wrapped around Cloud...awww ]

 

[eleamaya]

I actually think that the relationship Clerith's wished that Cloud and Aerith had would be something almost identical to what Kenshin and Tomoe had in the RK manga and Tsuioku-hen. But pleaaaaaaase. They're not even close. Still, I may just be biased to that one pairing, since I do think it's the best pairing in manga/anime - ever!

What? Kenshin and Tomoe were canonly married. How could it be close to Cloud/Aerith?

Aerith is somehow similar with Tomoe because of their motives to got close and attracted to the second guy; Tomoe had revenge of Kiyosato and Aerith was reminded of Zack; but both of them then fell in love genuinely.

Another one closest thing I think of this is... Kenshin had unforgivable sins for killing Kiyosato and Tomoe, that they two gave him a scar on his face. And this scar slowly diminish after Kenshin moved on and found his happiness with Kaoru.

But well, yeah, Kenshin never met Kaoru before he met Tomoe nor being Kaoru's childhood friend and having a crush to her first. So.... Kiyasato/Tomoe/kenshin perhaps is almost identical with Zack/Aerith/Cloud but Tomoe/Kenshin/Kaoru will never be as complicated as Aerith/Cloud/Tifa unless Cleriths also move on to let Cloud loves Tifa.