The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

This must mean Cloud visiting the Buster Sword and looking remorseful is actually Cloud visiting himself and being remorseful about...himself. The flashbacks incorporated with Zack during the time he visits the sword mean absolutely nothing.

He totally didn't put the Buster Sword there to honor Zack. He put it there to honor himself. Okay. Another douchey Clerith!Cloud interpretation then.

No no no. What it is is see, the Buster Sword reminds Cloud of how he almost killed Aerith himself. So uh.....he decided to get rid of it by sticking it on the hill outside Midgar. Yeah thats it. Um...but later he changes his mind or something and decides to keep it in the church so Ghost Aerith can be reminded of him. Totally makes sense

 

[I Am Not Me]

No no no. What it is is see, the Buster Sword reminds Cloud of how he almost killed Aerith himself. So uh.....he decided to get rid of it by sticking it on the hill outside Midgar. Yeah thats it. Um...but later he changes his mind or something and decides to keep it in the church so Ghost Aerith can be reminded of him. Totally makes sense

Oh, so who's Zack again?

 

[Wolfmania]

No no no. What it is is see, the Buster Sword reminds Cloud of how he almost killed Aerith himself. So uh.....he decided to get rid of it by sticking it on the hill outside Midgar. Yeah thats it. Um...but later he changes his mind or something and decides to keep it in the church so Ghost Aerith can be reminded of him. Totally makes sense

Nooooooooo

Don't give them ideas

 

[Unlucky]

Oh, so who's Zack again?

He's the douchebag who played with Aerith's heart, dontcha know. He flirted and slept with other women while they were dating and made her cry everyday (a real argument, btw). That gasp Aerith gave by the end of CC, it was her realizing through her Cetra powers that not only is he cheating on her with other girls, but with his blond, blue-eyed twink of a best friend too!

Seriously speaking though, I know some people are so emotionally invested in their ship and would fight canon or refuse to accept it-- but what I could definitely not fathom is how some of them twist and completely change the story and invent rather horrible interpretations just to keep it afloat. I mean-- do they picture the story the way they distorted it, and honestly find it likable?? It's absurd.

 

[Lex]

The theme for the date scene is called "Interrupted by Fireworks". However, Aerith was never interrupted by fireworks during that date. Tifa was. Might be a hint to something, but I don't know.

This is something I had never even considered before! That's a bit of an eye opener.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, "Interrupted by Fireworks" is the name you often see for the track, but the Japanese title (花火に消された言&#33865 would be more accurately translated as "Words Drowned by Fireworks," and I think that's how I've seen it on OST lists -- though I'm not sure if the actual OST has translations for the names. Anyway, that name seems to fit Tifa's date best of all. Her dialogue is rendered as ellipses when the fireworks begin, and she is unable to tell Cloud how she feels about him.

That being said, I'm still convinced that Aerith's date should be treated as the canon variation.

 

[null]

Agreed. Aerith's date is most functional to the plot and takes a fair bit of work to avoid. And it just isn't Tifa's moment yet.

 

[Lex]

^I agree that Aerith's date should probably be considered the canon one, but as a little aside, during the FFVII race, not looking at or thinking about dialogue choices other than "this one probably takes the least amount of time" I ended up with Tifa and Flint ended up with Aerith.

 

[Kittie]

Agreed. Aerith's date is most functional to the plot and takes a fair bit of work to avoid. And it just isn't Tifa's moment yet.

I also agree. Aerith's date is the one which hints that there's something not quite right about Cloud, while Tifa's is simply her failure to confess her feelings. I like all of the dates, especially the Barret date, but Aerith's makes the most sense with the game's storyline. And, yes, Tifa certainly has her moment later with Cloud...and we know how it ends, too.

But in all seriousness, I personally prefer the Clerith date being canon. Aerith has at least one happy moment with Cloud, not long before she dies. Tifa has a lifetime with him. It's bittersweet, but she at least has that one moment with him, even though he's still oblivious to her feelings.

 

[null]

^I agree that Aerith's date should probably be considered the canon one, but as a little aside, during the FFVII race, not looking at or thinking about dialogue choices other than "this one probably takes the least amount of time" I ended up with Tifa and Flint ended up with Aerith.

Yeah, FF7's affection system is basically non-deterministic for the player. There's no way of knowing which choices carry awards or penalties; characters start with different point bonuses, with Aerith far in the lead; Aerith also wins every tie-breaker; characters can get vastly different awards or even penalties for the same choice; some non-romantic choices impact affection; just being in the party at certain times gains points; ignoring a character at random times can cost points. Plus there's at least one Noveria style hack for unlimited points (Tifa in Shinra jail). With no way of knowing how points are awarded, or what events are affected, the player really doesn't have a choice of romance path. Even if the writing team intended it.

For reference (I'm sure most have seen this before):

Final Fantasy 7 Date Mechanics by Mr. T. Fergusson seems to be the gold (and only) standard.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I agree with everyone too. In fact, it seems like even unbiased people will agree that Aerith's date should be considered the canon one. It makes the most sense in the story, it gives Aerith's departure more impact, and tells us a lot more about her feelings for Cloud. It wasn't just that she fell in love with him at first sight--it was because Cloud reminded her of someone she used to love. It also shows us that she was finally willing to look past that and love Cloud for him. Also that there was something very wrong with Cloud, but we all already knew that.

The Aerith date shows that Aerith is a deep character.

I made my list because I just like to be a little antagonistic at times (they're true too, besides). Especially when Zack is downplayed for the sake of making someone else's ship look good.

In terms of the LTD, the Aerith date being canon doesn't do anything for Cloti being canon as well. Nothing else happened in that date. The "magical" ending was Cloud and Aerith agreeing it was fun, then splitting up and calling it a magical night. Besides, that was already proven as a mistranslation, and as far as I can tell that's the only thing that could even hint about something more about the Aerith date.

Unless they argue Cloud and Aerith having some sexy time in the Gondola ride or something, I don't know.

 

[Octo]

^dunno about sexy time exactly, but I've seen it argued that the fade to black/fireworks means they did something.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

For reference (I'm sure most have seen this before):

Final Fantasy 7 Date Mechanics by Mr. T. Fergusson seems to be the gold (and only) standard.

Major agreement with everything you said, but I especially want to call attention to the fact that -- if not for a scripting error -- battles would have affected the date mechanics too, as detailed there in that guide. It's also mentioned in the Kaitai Shinsho, as though the Battle Affection mechanic still worked. Apparently, the developers didn't figure out that it didn't until well after the game had been released internationally and even re-released in Japan.

The player would have had no idea that healing characters with Cloud or failing to revive them before the end of a battle would affect events later.

It makes me also find the arguments that Aerith's date is default but the High Affection Highwind scene isn't to be doubly hilarious considering all those points early in the game where you're required to have Tifa in the party with Cloud

As easy as it already is to get the High Affection scene secured, can you imagine if Cloud healing and reviving Tifa did it too? As it is, you can have the requisite number of affection points by the time you begin the second bombing mission -- but even if you tell Jessie "Looking forward to it" and give the flower to Marlene, you'll probably have the points anyway by the time you leave Midgar because most people are going to a) tell Tifa "Give me something hard," b) say "How can you say that!", c) manage to escape the train lockdown and d) make any number of small, incidental decisions that will push her affection for Cloud above 50.

You already have to go out of your way to avoid the High Affection scene. The Battle Affection mechanic would have just made it that much more of a deliberate effort.

 

[I Am Not Me]

^dunno about sexy time exactly, but I've seen it argued that the fade to black/fireworks means they did something.

Oh that makes complete sense.


Aeris
Wow, how nice.
Oh! Look, Cloud.
It's so pretty.

At length, she turns away from the window.

......it's beautiful, isn't it?
......first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike.
Two completely different people, but look exactly the same.
The way you walk, gesture...
I think I must have seen him again, in you...
But you're different.
Things are different.
Cloud...
I'm searching for you.

Cloud
............?

Aeris
I want to meet you.

Cloud
But I'm right here.

Aeris
(I know, I know...what I mean is...)
I want to meet...you.

Cloud
.............
Do you mean we should make out and have a quickie on this ride that lasts 3 minutes at best?

Aeris
That's a good way to meet you, I guess.

Fade to black, fireworks.

The gondola returns to Round Square, and they "get off".




The canon cannot be denied. It's something Cloud and Aerith would definitely do.










Script sauce: http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script/24.html#aeris

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What really cracks me up about the idea that Cloud and Aerith got it on or did anything remotely romantic during the gondola ride is that, afterward, she asks him "You don't like being with me?"

It's like, "Wow, Cloud totally uses the women he loves, doesn't he?"

And, hell, if Tifa can't be in a relationship with Cloud because she asked "Do you love me?" and should know the answer, then what the hell does that mean for Aerith asking Cloud "Don't you like being with me?"

Jesus Christ.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Cloud probably didn't enjoy the magical ride, if you get what I mean.

 

[Unlucky]

The gondola ride isn't the only event not spared from the sexytimes speculations. Remember in AC when Cloud apparently 'died' and went missing before returning to the church? Some people actually suggest that *something* might have happened between him and Aerith during those hours

You know what, I might agree, only in the condition that Zack joined in

 

[I Am Not Me]

The gondola ride isn't the only event spared from the sexytimes speculations. Remember in AC when Cloud apparently 'died' and went missing before returning to the church? Some people actually suggest that *something* might have happened between him and Aerith during those hours

You know what, I might agree, only in the condition that Zack joined in

Something happened alright.

Between him and Zack.

Aerith watched. Aerith never stands against true love.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Speaking of the date, I had a scan before (i'll try to find it) that there are actually planned dates for the rest of the party. They even have screencaps of it.

Does anyone know what this is?

 

[Dashell]

It's from the UO but I never really looked into it, I know what you're talking about though

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know the page you guys are talking about, but it's not referring to unused date ideas. It's talking about how Cloud go for a regular ride in Round Square with any other party member for 10 GP.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Is it true that if you revive Aerith using a game shark or w/e when the gondola ride is closed it will reopen and you'll be able to use it? I seem to remember that happening but my memory might be faulty That's probably just related to some sort of flag though.

Also @ Lex

<panto voice>

OH no he didn't!

Actually I think your brain just did a brainfart/got mixed up/maybe got it the wrong way around or something Lex because it says in the FFVII: The Race topic you got the Aeris/Aerith date, can't find where Flint says his/if he did though. Unless you mean a diffent/previous/different type of speedrun! You also said "Booooo" at getting the Aeris date, bad Lex *whap*

 

[Sikozu]

Something happened alright.

Between him and Zack.

Aerith watched. Aerith never stands against true love.

I can see Aerith giving them pointers(like her "walk more nicely" line).

 

[Unlucky]

It all makes sense now how Cloud was revitalized.. his HP/MP restored to the fullest.. just like how Mukki did it

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Yeah, "Interrupted by Fireworks" is the name you often see for the track, but the Japanese title (&#33457;&#28779;&#12395;&#28040;&#12373;&#12428;&#12383;&#35328;&#33865 would be more accurately translated as "Words Drowned by Fireworks," and I think that's how I've seen it on OST lists -- though I'm not sure if the actual OST has translations for the names. Anyway, that name seems to fit Tifa's date best of all. Her dialogue is rendered as ellipses when the fireworks begin, and she is unable to tell Cloud how she feels about him.

That being said, I'm still convinced that Aerith's date should be treated as the canon variation.

iTunes calls it Words Drowned by Fireworks.