The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Farron]

I think the Cleriths use the excuse that Final Fantasy VII was created before Crisis Core so that's why Aeris wears pink and has the pink ribbon, because she was created that way.

Yes, but if Square-Enix didn't want Zerith to be canon they wouldn't of put extra work in Crisis Core to make the ribbon a symbol of Zack and Aerith's love for each other and why Aerith wears pink. They would've created a different backstory line, like Elmyra gave the ribbon to her or maybe she found it on the church floor where the flowerbed where future Cloud lands or something. They wouldn't of put so much work into Zerith symbolism and things like the ribbon having a Zerith meaning if they didn't want Zerith to be canon.

Crisis Core tells us that Square- Enix wants Zerith to be a canon pairing, it's canon. Enough said. It's not a huge shock that most Cleriths hate this game. No offense to any Cleriths reading this. I'm sorry if it sounds mean.

If you don't like or ship Zerith that's fine, but it doesn't stop canon.

 

[eleamaya]

My problem is their statement that "Aerith love Cloud much more than Zack"
Yes, they're canon but in some way Cleriths can accept it was "just" past relationship. And I also admit she moved on her pain, grief, and denial then develop romantic feeling to Cloud, but it doesn't mean she let go of the love she and Zack shared.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To be fair, the idea that Aerith loved Cloud more isn't purely fan invention. Aerith actually says this in one of the Kaitai Shinsho entries and in Maiden Who Travels the Planet.

The question of their canonicity aside, no one can be blamed for believing this.

 

[Octo]

I don't think you can love someone who you are not yet in a relationship with more than someone you were in a relationship with.

But then I don't consider it love until you are actually in a relationship. I just consider that having feelings for someone or fancying the pants of off them.

 

[Groodon]

Well, isn't the canonicity pretty important when we are talking canon?

 

[Octo]

^Yeah of course.

It's just that SE are maikng Aerith, and by extension themselves, look like idiots with that statement. But then this isnt the first stupid thing they have said, and it sure wont be the last

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Wait, people are denying Zerith being canon!? Even the original game made it pretty explicit that Zack and Aerith had been in a relationship. Honestly, that's almost as bad as saying Cecil/Rosa isn't canon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, isn't the canonicity pretty important when we are talking canon?

Yes, though some folks are going to believe the Benny Matsuyama writings are canon, and they can hardly be blamed for it. They were published in official books that had interviews and other information provided directly by FFVII's staff -- and Maiden was even in an Ultimania published by Square itself.

The only reason its canonicity is even in question is because they've never acknowledged its existence since. For that matter, it actually fits the continuity of the original game better than some of the Compilation stuff that is undeniably canon.

So, yeah, I don't blame anyone for believing in either the canonicity of Matsuyama's writings or Aerith's statements that she loved Cloud more.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Lalala is that the same Maiden that has Aeris wake up Zack while trying to paint a picture of Cloud? Because that totally drives the point home

 

[Danseru-kun]

Well I think the Zack vs Cloud issue in Aerith's heart is difficult to argue because by the time Aerith met Cloud, her love for Zack is not already at peak and probably just plateaued to a point where her love for Cloud increases.

So we cannot say she loved Cloud more than she loved Zack in the past but I think it's fair to say she loved Cloud more at the point in time she already let go of Zack.

 

[eleamaya]

I don't argue the canonicity of Dismantled and MoTP, I just said even if it was canon, it's irrelevant anymore after Crisis Core. The lines of "Aerith love Cloud more than Zack" is only written on them and it's derived from their past relationship that never in intimate level contradicting to CC. By the logic, you know SE even revised AC and CoT after CC and put out Last Order.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Y'know, I was looking through the first LTD thrad 4 teh lulz, and I noticed how people were making fun of cleriths saying Coud and Tifa couldn't have sex 'cause pointy rocks, and I couldn't help but be reminded of a topic back on GameFAQs called "Cloud and Tifa did NOT have sex!". The topic creator said they couldn't have for these three reasons:
"1. The rocks were too pointy"
"2. There are no condoms in the FFVII world, so if Cloud had sex with Tifa he would've gotten her pregnant, which he doesn't"
"3. Cloud is too in love with Aerith to have sex with Tifa"
Now, IIRC, that was my first exposure to the LTD. I didn't take the Topic Creator seriously though because they were a known troll and even later admitted to trolling. It wasn't until I read SoS's Plot Analysis that I realized there were people out there who actually believed that kind of shit. Incidentally, that was also when I first found out that Cloud and Tifa had sex under the Highwind.

Also, does anyone else find it funny that when the cleriths finally got a creator statement that implies Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, it could only be read that way if you took it as implying Cloud had romantic feelings for Tifa as well?

Also, I feel like saying my bit about who I think Aerith loved moar. I'm gonna go with Danseru and say that Aerith's love for Zack at its peak was higher than her love for Cloud was at its peak, but at the time when her love for Cloud peaked it was higher than her love for Zack at that point. Though, perhaps her love for Zack will start to rise again in the lifestream? I wouldn't know since SE has never been clear on what exactly it's like in the lifestream. I do like to think that Zack and Aerith had lifestream spirit smex at some point to make up for the lack of sex when they were alive, and that it was way better than the flowerfield spirit smex between Asshat!Cloud and Sue!Aerith in the fic-which-shall-not-be-named.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Wait, people are denying Zerith being canon!? Even the original game made it pretty explicit that Zack and Aerith had been in a relationship. Honestly, that's almost as bad as saying Cecil/Rosa isn't canon.

Yes, but now their argument is Zerith WAS (not "is") canon because it's off the past and now Aerith loves Cloud.

Yeah it doesnt make sense

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

But hold on, clerith is in the past too because now Aerith is dead. Sure Zerith is in the past, but so is clerith(which, unlike the other examples, never even had a relationship come about), Hoj/Luc, Barret/Myrna, Vin/Luc(though it has the potential to be a current one if Lucrecia would just leave that stupid crystal), Dyne/Eleanor, Gast/Ifalna, etc. Just because a couple isn't in a relationship anymoar that doesn't undermine the canonicity of the relationship they had.

 

[Shadowfox]

But hold on, clerith is in the past too because now Aerith is dead. Sure Zerith is in the past, but so is clerith

If I understand the spirit (hah!) of the argument correctly, Clerith can never be in the past because Aerith, despite being dead, lives on in Cloud.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

But she lives on inside all her friends as well. Clotibaeredcaityufvincid ftw?

 

[Morana]

I honestly don't know how someone can claim that Zerith is in the past and Clerith isn't.

 

[jazzflower92]

I honestly don't know how someone can claim that Zerith is in the past and Clerith isn't.

They are in denial.

 

[eleamaya]

In Case of Lifestream White, it uses past tense too.
Well, though Aerith loved Cloud, Clerith was never be in romantic relationship.
I hope they don't forget their sacral line about "a love that never be"
NEVER BE.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Yeah, at least Zack and Aerith actually entered a romantic relationship. With Cloud and Aerith, while the feelings were there, no relationship ever came about from them. Even if Aerith lived and a relationship did come about between them, I doubt it would still hold once Cloud regains himself again.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Hey, translation issue for this 10AU quote in our page:

Nojima: … Story-wise, the scene at the Northern Cave where Cloud talks while upside-down left an impression on me. I worked on the direction for that scene, but getting the characters to run to match with the movie scene was tricky, and I remember having trouble with it. The part where Cloud addresses Tifa as “Mrs.”* Tifa, I made that hoping that the people playing it would be taken aback by the change in Cloud and it would really hit the player.


Some people pointed out the translation should be "Miss" not "Mrs" because it was Tifa-san and Tifa isn't married.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I'm sure hito has his reasons. What they may be, I don't know, but I don't think hito would've translated it as Mrs. unless he was sure that's what it should be translated as.

 

[Strangelove]

That might have just been an oversight on my part (I don't think it being -san has anything to do with it being 'miss', it doesn't really work like that and is just a respectful term for anyone). I don't remember any specific reasoning behind it, so I probably just mixed them up.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Out of curiosity, what was the term Cloud used in the English localization? Did he say Miss or Mrs. or something different?

 

[Strangelove]

According to the script I have Shademp, it skips out this thing entirely and just calls her Tifa:

“Especially you, Tifa.
I'm really sorry.”
“You've been so good to me…
I don't know what to say…”　
“I never lived up to
being 'Cloud'.”
“Tifa…
Maybe one day you'll meet
the real 'Cloud'.”

「特にティファ……さん。本当にごめんなさい」 (Especially Tifa... san. I'm really sorry.)
「いろいろ良くしてくれたのに…… なんて言ったらいいのか……」 (You've been so good to me... I don't know what to say...)
「俺、クラウドにはなりきれませんでした」 (I couldn't [completely] become Cloud.)
「ティファさん…… いつかどこかで本当のクラウドくんに会えるといいですね」 (Tifa-san... I hope someday somewhere you will be able to meet the real Cloud-kun.)

It's not always very natural or smooth to translate '-san' into anything at times, because it's used in a more liberal way than 'Mr./Mrs./Miss/etc.' are in English. (I remember that the subtitles for Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou/His & Her Circumstances used 'Miss Miyazawa' to translate 'Miyazawa-san' and it sounds strange to hear school kids using that to talk to each other. It's a cultural difference that doesn't cross over well.)

But here is something that would have benefited from having something, since you miss the sense of personal distance you get from him suddenly starting to use '-san' (and they throw in a '-kun' when he is talking about the real Cloud, which distances himself from himself even).