The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Because all those points have been addressed already... I didn't see the point

They've been addressed by *other* people and I have responded to their rebuttals.

 

[Dashell]

Right, enough with the sarcasm. I'm asking because our site says it's not canon, and I want to know whether it is or not because it's my responsibility to make sure non-opinion pieces/ pages published here are factually accurate.

And I'm telling you, OUR site is wrong. There is absolutely NO reason not to consider it canon. There's like one or two retcons, that doesn't mean you throw the whole thing out the window.

Benny wrote the story, he was hired to write the story, he wrote the tidbits in Dismantled that are considered canon... Square never said it was NOT canon yet they've gone out of their way to tell us Last Order was NOT part of the compilation... they would have said something by now if it wasn't. It was published in the fucking ultimania and I have to be honest, the ONLY place I've seen people say "not canon!" to Maiden, is in the LTD.

They've been addressed by *other* people and I have responded to their rebuttals.

So what's wrong?

 

[Geostigma]

Can I have some examples? This is a new practice to me

Ever read comics? Almost everything that isnt in the main numbered issue line up is usually not canon. As are most of the one shots and even a few numbered issues.

Great examples being The Dark Knight Returns, and its sequel. And Red Son a what if story detailing what would happen if Superman landed in Russia instead of Kansas. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of comics and other literary media that are non canon with 0 disclaimers.

Not to mention we have to consider other facts like TLS:White coming straight from nomura and contradicting alot of shit in Maiden

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks Ryu

Spoiler

Ok, I have stuffs to respond to but first - No, I agree with Que, aren't the novellas also just stories/novellas/fanfictions or w/e? So Case of Tifa, etc, heck let's also throw the FFXIII Episodes and Fragments Before/After in, stuffs like that since I've had people say they don't consider stuff like that canon when I've been discussing/defending FFXIII stuff before, apparently if it's not in the game/s and it's not easily accessible, i.e if they had to/have to go out of their way to find/buy it or w/e it's not canon

Also danseru mentioned earlier something about people throwing stuffs like the Ultimanias, etc out as well and just going with meta, I'm not entirely sure what meta is but I think it's something like that.

Oh and if Maiden isn't canon then the stuff with Zacks in it isn't canon either m'rite?

*hides from I AM Not Me*

Edit - Ok, I was ninjad by the above post <_<

 

[Dashell]

Maiden does NOT contradict other things (not anymore than other Compilation entries), that's a myth.

... and comics... okay... I can see your point but you can't compare the two. Different media... I'm asking for a book that's full of facts that has a piece of fanfiction in the end... does that exist or not?

 

[Lex]

And I'm telling you, OUR site is wrong. There is absolutely NO reason not to consider it canon. There's like one or two retcons, that doesn't mean you throw the whole thing out the window.

Benny wrote the story, he was hired to write the story, he wrote the tidbits in Dismantled that are considered canon... Square never said it was NOT canon yet they've gone out of their way to tell us Last Order was NOT part of the compilation... they would have said something by now if it wasn't. It was published in the fucking ultimania and I have to be honest, the ONLY place I've seen people say "not canon!" to Maiden, is in the LTD.

I'm going to open this for debate elsewhere, since it's only tangentially LTD related and unlike the LTD, actually important to the site. I've also sent you a PM.

 

[Dashell]

I never got a PM

 

[Geostigma]

Maiden does NOT contradict other things (not anymore than other Compilation entries), that's a myth.

... and comics... okay... I can see your point but you can't compare the two. Different media... I'm asking for a book that's full of facts that has a piece of fanfiction in the end... does that exist or not?

Yes. Its called Maiden

You asked for proof that non canon events get published by a official source, well it happens in manga and comics all the time. You cant just change your criteria once you get proven wrong, especially for a tradition that has been around for half a century.

And Im sorry but maiden contradicts alot of stuff, then TLS:White contradicts maiden.

So who to believe, some hired writer named Benny... or Nomura?

 

[Dashell]

And Im sorry but maiden contradicts alot of stuff, then TLS:White contradicts maiden.

Nope.

I know we don't like the copying and pasting of essays but, I did write an essay on this:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/MaidenCanon.htm

I hope it's okay to link it, it points out how most of the "contradictions" aren't contradictions. Tres helped me a lot with this BTW

You asked for proof that non canon events get published by a official source, well it happens in manga and comics all the time. You cant just change your criteria once you get proven wrong, especially for a tradition that has been around for half a century.

So this seems to have become "Because it happens in comics, clearly it happened here too" okay then... can I go ahead and say that about other parts of the Ultimania then?.... you know those playbacks don't always seem accurate.. I say it's just fanfiction.

That's cool right?

 

[Shademp]

My opinion is that if you wish to be objective, you can't point out Maiden Who Travels the Planet as neither canon nor non-canon.

There isn't a singular "keeper of FFVII canon" and there are no prefaces or appendices (afaik) in FFVII guide books that dive into the concept of canon.

The premise that Maiden is not canon stems largely from this section of Squall_of_SeeD's article about FFVII canon.

Due to the proliferation of FFVII-related stories, numerous reference books have been published addressing the overall continuity, none of which have ever so much as mentioned Maiden Who Travels the Planet or the entries in the Kaitai Shinsho &#8212; less even than can be said for Cloud&#8217;s appearance in Final Fantasy Tactics. The FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania&#8217;s &#8220;Final Fantasy VII History&#8221; section (pp. 16-20 of the Revised Edition; 16-19 of the original) &#8212; a timeline addressing the production of numerous FFVII media from 1995 to the time of the book&#8217;s publication &#8212; does not mention Matsuyama&#8217;s writings, nor does the same guide&#8217;s &#8220;Final Fantasy VII series&#8221; section (pp. 21-27 of the Revised Edition; 20-25 of the original), which, as mentioned above, even included the now-decanonized Last Order and Dirge of Cerberus Lost Episode.

Even the list from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character guide book that decanonized those two titles doesn&#8217;t speak of Maiden or the Kaitai Shinsho&#8217;s diary entries as part of the Compilation.

Unless there is a preface that says "This is the history of Final Fantasy VII Canon" I will be mostly inclined to say that the canonicity of Maiden is ambiguous. The section "Final Fantasy VII History" might equally be interpreted as an advertisment, which by letting you know of "History of Final Fantasy VII Products" lets you know about products to buy (such as Final Fantasy Tactics).

The fact that Maiden is omitted says nothing in either direction, unless the guide books are clear that they are devoted to the concept of canon just as much as the people of FFVII forums like this are. What if the central figures of the Compilation staff (Kazushige Nojima, Tetsuya Nomura, Yoshinori Kitase) simply forgot about Matsuyama's? Or perhaps they do consider it non-canon. We do not know.

It is also for this reason that I don't think it 100% clear if Tactics is part of FFVII canon. If you subscribe to the notion that any FFVII products by Square is part of the canon narrative and/or that the "Final Fantasy VII History" section of the 10th Anniversary Ultimania is there to present the continuity rather than the products, then yes, FFTactics can be seen as part of the canon continuity.


These musing are part of a bigger article about the "Rules of Canon" that I one day intend to write, hopefully in collaboration with Squall_of_SeeD. But I can't promise that the article will see the light of day this summer. Currently, I think the topic of canonicity deserves its own topics. Maybe split the Maiden discussion into a separate topic?

 

[Geostigma]

So this seems to have become "Because it happens in comics, clearly it happened here too" okay then... can I go ahead and say that about other parts of the Ultimania then?.... you know those playbacks don't always seem accurate.. I say it's just fanfiction.

That's cool right

lol calm down. Btw if you want proof of non canon stories being published and accepted officially by the creators one only needs to read pretty much any Star War or Star Trek book

I know we don't like the copying and pasting of essays but, I did write an essay on this:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/MaidenCanon.htm

I hope it's okay to link it, it points out how most of the "contradictions" aren't contradictions. Tres helped me a lot with this BTW

If i cba Ill read it later.

 

[Dashell]

My opinion is that if you wish to be objective, you can't point out Maiden Who Travels the Planet as neither canon nor non-canon.

There isn't a singular "keeper of FFVII canon" and there are no prefaces or appendices (afaik) in FFVII guide books that dive into the concept of canon.

The premise that Maiden is not canon stems largely from this section of Squall_of_SeeD's article about FFVII canon.


Unless there is a preface that says "This is the history of Final Fantasy VII Canon" I will be mostly inclined to say that the canonicity of Maiden is ambiguous. The section "Final Fantasy VII History" might equally be interpreted as an advertisment, which by letting you know of "History of Final Fantasy VII Products" lets you know about products to buy (such as Final Fantasy Tactics).

The fact that Maiden is omitted says nothing in either direction, unless the guide books are clear that they are devoted to the concept of canon just as much as the people of FFVII forums like this are. What if the central figures of the Compilation staff (Kazushige Nojima, Tetsuya Nomura, Yoshinori Kitase) simply forgot about Matsuyama's? Or perhaps they do consider it non-canon. We do not know.

It is also for this reason that I don't think it 100% clear if Tactics is part of FFVII canon. If you subscribe to the notion that any FFVII products by Square is part of the canon narrative and/or that the "Final Fantasy VII History" section of the 10th Anniversary Ultimania is there to present the continuity rather than the products, then yes, FFTactics can be seen as part of the canon continuity.


These musing are part of a bigger article about the "Rules of Canon" that I one day intend to write, hopefully in collaboration with Squall_of_SeeD. But I can't promise that the article will see the light of day this summer. Currently, I think the topic of canonicity deserves its own topics. Maybe split the Maiden discussion into a separate topic?

I'm going to unthank this post just so I can thank it again.

lol calm down. Btw if you want proof of non canon stories being published and accepted officially by the creators one only needs to read pretty much any Star War or Star Trek book

That's a much better example IMO... though I'm not completely familiar with either

 

[Lex]

I've opened a dialogue in the "Our Site" thread about Maiden. Let us speak of it no more! (Here).

 

[Roger]

I really don't think you can equate the ommission of a story that takes place on the Planet from a sump to an interview or guidebook not being mentioned a line-up of canonical entries.

But anyway, the person BlankBeat was quoting was going all "Maiden explains this" "Maiden shows that" then went on to talk about AC. Maiden is not a great authority on what rules the Compilatiom adheres too when it comes to the Lifestream, and what Aerith can see/do.

Edit: Oops

 

[Dashell]

I really don't think you can equate the ommission of a story that takes place on the Planet from a sump to an interview or guidebook not being mentioned a line-up of canonical entries.

there's a list of canonical entries?

 

[Roger]

there's a list of canonical entries?

What gets to be in Compilation or referenced in Ultimania, stuff like that.

 

[Dashell]

Oh i thought you meant there was one already, sorry

Ryushikaze+
Viewing Thread
The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril)
Send a message via AIM to Ryushikaze

oooh, in for it now

 

[Geostigma]

I'm going to unthank this post just so I can thank it again.


That's a much better example IMO... though I'm not completely familiar with either

Essentially

Star Trek Canon = If its not in one of the main live action series its not canon. Every book, cartoon series ect. Is not canon.

Star Wars = Is a different beast as theres different "levels" of canon but basically if its not in the movies its considered either a what if/what could happen story or adaptation of ideas from the movie. But ultimately Lucas only considers the movies to be the "true canon".

As I was saying earlier non canon entries from official sources are very common in a lot of mediums. There necessary because they can help flesh out multitudes of scenarios without impacting the main universe in any way.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Get banned for making fun of/mocking a Clerith?

Vendel. QED.

On the subject of Maiden, part of the reason why it's considered in essence non-canon is because several of its more salient points were contradicted by later installments. Some of these were then officially retconned, but the point is, No one, especially not Nojima, seemed to give a crap about the important bits of the novella, so it's more or less novella non-grata as far as S-E goes.

Or to use the SW analogy that was so lovingly brought up, it's a C-canon or perhaps even Infinities-canon source because stuff closer to 'the source' ignores or outright contradicts it.
Hell, I'd even be willing to take it piecemeal.

First things first, we EXCISE THE RUNNY EGG!

 

[BlankBeat]

So what's wrong?

That you call me out for not responding to people (even though there are people that haven't answered my posts, either).

Point is, I hear the same talking-points from each and every one of you, so I tend to respond to each of you with the same counter-points. It may seem like I'm repeating myself, but it's just because I typically have several people saying the same thing to me at once.

--------------------

Vendel. QED.

I have no idea about the circumstances regarding QED's banning, but Vendel has a long history of aggressive/ridiculous behavior towards numerous people (including non-Clerith's).

Have you taken a look at the smilies recently? The smilies, by themselves, show that this place is very pro-Cloti.

 

[BlankBeat]

Nope.

I know we don't like the copying and pasting of essays but, I did write an essay on this:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/MaidenCanon.htm

I hope it's okay to link it, it points out how most of the "contradictions" aren't contradictions. Tres helped me a lot with this BTW

 

[Lex]

This site is pro-canon, and nothing else. It doesn't give a shit about the LTD. The board is a different beast.

 

[Strangelove]

You are assuming this mysterious feeling happened in a vacuum.

This mysterious feeling came after we know Cloud thought that paying 1 gil for Aerith's smile was a "good purchase" and that her eyes were "impressive".

I didn't know you were using these in your reasoning, you only said 'mysterious feeling'.

(I don't dispute Cloud and Aerith having romantic feelings for each other, although I don't think it progressed or continued.)

THEN, Cloud has a flashback in Aerith's house about having an older girlfriend.

Cloud's answer to this was 'I'm not interested'.

THEN, Cloud and Aerith share a date in the park where the topic of romantic relationships gets brought up.

Where she talks about Zack? It's kind of reaching to say that's bringing up the 'topic of romantic relationships' as it related to Cloud and Aerith. (Then they say their goodbyes and are about to go their separate ways until Tifa shows up.)

 

[BlankBeat]

I didn't know you were using these in your reasoning, you only said 'mysterious feeling'.

The "mysterious feeling", "impressive eyes", and Aerith's smile being a "good purchase" all refer to Cloud and Aerith's initial meeting. So when trying to figure out what Cloud's "mysterious feeling" is, I think it's only logical to take into consideration everything we know about their initial meeting so we can gather some clues about what this "mysterious feeling" is.

Cloud's "mysterious feeling" becomes even clearer when shortly after their initial meeting, Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date and tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

(I don't dispute Cloud and Aerith having romantic feelings for each other, although I don't think it progressed or continued.)

Cloud's answer to this was 'I'm not interested'.

That was Cloud's response to his Mother back when he was much younger.

I think SE's intent for including this flashback in Aerith's house was to show that although Cloud wasn't interested in a girlfriend back then, with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud may be changing his mind.

We know Cloud thought Aerith's eyes were "impressive", that her smile was a "good purchase", and that he had a "mysterious feeling" when he met her. Then he agreed to be her bodyguard for the price of one date.

All of this probably triggered Cloud into having a flashback about him and his Mother talking about girlfriends. Then, after this flashback is over, we see Cloud in his room and Aerith in hers. Then, Aerith and Cloud share a date in the park where Aerith brings up her former boyfriend, Zack. We start to learn that Cloud and Zack are very similar, which implies (to me) that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack. All of this seems intentionally done by SE to set up a mutual romance.

The very fact that SE has Cloud and Aerith go rescue Tifa was a clear way to set up this love triangle, especially because Aerith asks Cloud if Tifa is his girlfriend and he has the option to say yes or no.

Where she talks about Zack? It's kind of reaching to say that's bringing up the 'topic of romantic relationships' as it related to Cloud and Aerith. (Then they say their goodbyes and are about to go their separate ways until Tifa shows up.)

It seems that the date in the park was there to bring up the topic of romantic relationships so that the gamer would then have the idea of romantic relationships in their head and begin to apply that directly to Cloud and Aerith.

And again -- I'm looking at the order and progression of events to provide context for why SE decided to have Aerith bring up her first boyfriend in the park.

Cloud thinks Aerith's eyes are impressive ---> Cloud thinks Aerith's smile is a good purchase ---> Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a "mysterious feeling" ---> Cloud falls into Aerith's Church the same way Zack did ---> Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date ---> Cloud has a flashback about relationships in Aerith's house ---> Aerith asks if Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend ---> Cloud and Aerith share an intimate moment in the park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend that is similar to Cloud (maybe Cloud can be Aerith's new Zack?) ---> Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him ---> Cloud says he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon ---> Cloud and Aerith share a date at Golden Saucer ---> SE includes a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith ---> SE says that Cloud is Aerith's "koibito"

 

[Ryushikaze]

That you call me out for not responding to people (even though there are people that haven't answered my posts, either).

If you mean me, darling, it's because I decided that if you were going to talk how we were analyzing everything in a vacuum when you had to repeatedly do the same to every bit of evidence I proffered, well, you were too much a hypocrite not to just sit back and mock at leisure.

Point is, I hear the same talking-points from each and every one of you, so I tend to respond to each of you with the same counter-points. It may seem like I'm repeating myself, but it's just because I typically have several people saying the same thing to me at once.

--------------------

So, because you THINK we are repeating "talking points," you literally copy and paste Clerith talking points.
Not gonna fly.

I have no idea about the circumstances regarding QED's banning,

I think I've determined how much attention you pay to the actual content of my posts, then. Can't say as I'm surprised, though. You always did strike me as a bit solipsistic.

but Vendel has a long history of aggressive/ridiculous behavior towards numerous people (including non-Clerith's).

And he was banned from this thread long before his ban from the forum for his excessive spite towards all Cleriths.

Have you taken a look at the smilies recently? The smilies, by themselves, show that this place is very pro-Cloti.

Actually, they show we are very anti-bullshit, and a lot of that comes from pinkers.
But, as Stephen Colbert says, reality does have a very strong liberal bias. Must have a C/T one too.