The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

One will probably notice that I thanked BlankBeat's most recent post. That might be the first time that's happened in this thread.

Anyway, I think many of us would agree about the narrative purpose of a lot of that stuff, but what is the point being made about the "mysterious feeling"? Yes, Cloud was attracted to her. We all know that. So, this isn't new.

Is that the only point being made with that or what? I got sidetracked during the Maiden discussion, so where are we exactly?

 

[BlankBeat]

If you mean me, darling,

lol yes I mean you, sweetie!

you were too much a hypocrite not to just sit back and mock at leisure.

lawlz

You always did strike me as a bit solipsistic.

ok mr. pretentious pompous guy

...they show we are very anti-bullshit, and a lot of that comes from pinkers.

 

[Roger]

Cloud thinks Aerith's eyes are impressive ---> Cloud thinks Aerith's smile is a good purchase ---> Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a "mysterious feeling" ---> Cloud falls into Aerith's Church the same way Zack did ---> Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date ---> Cloud has a flashback about relationships in Aerith's house ---> Aerith asks if Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend ---> Cloud and Aerith share an intimate moment in the park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend that is similar to Cloud (maybe Cloud can be Aerith's new Zack?) ---> Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him ---> Cloud says he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon ---> Cloud and Aerith share a date at Golden Saucer ---> SE includes a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith ---> SE says that Cloud is Aerith's "koibito"

SE confirms Cloud was oblivious to her advances.
By Aerith's own words, she had yet to meet Cloud's real self through any of this.
Aerith dies. (Kind of obvious milestone in any FFVII timeline)

 

[Geostigma]

I have no idea about the circumstances regarding QED's banning

Oh god. My sides.

 

[BlankBeat]

SE confirms Cloud was oblivious to her advances.
By Aerith's own words, she had yet to meet Cloud's real self through any of this.
Aerith dies. (Kind of obvious milestone in any FFVII timeline)

1. Cloud being oblivious to Aerith's advances did not stop him from thinking her eyes were impressive, or that her smile was a good purchase, or prevent him from telling Marlene he hopes she likes him, or telling Aerith in Cosmo Canyon that he will always be there for her, or prevent him from going on a date with her, etc.

Cloud does not have to be in-tune to Aerith's advances to be romantically attracted to her, obviously.

2. So what if Aerith admits she doesn't know the real Cloud? She *WANTS* to get to know the real Cloud because of her romantic attraction to him:

"But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." -Aerith, Dismantled

Also -- there were bits and pieces of the real Cloud on disc 1:

“After developing his personality by using Zack’s memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud’s coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells.

They belong to the real Cloud’s personality.” ~page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Furthermore, Cloud and Aerith's connection continues after her death, which means she does get to know the 'real' Cloud.

3. You can argue that Cloud and Aerith's spiritual bond is not romantic, but it's still there. Therefore, her death does not stop their relationship from continuing.

 

[BlankBeat]

Oh god. My sides.

As you can tell, Math was never my strongest subject

::waits for jokes about how everything probably wasn't my strongest subject::

PS: I still think using Vendel as "proof" is laughable

 

[Roger]

1. Cloud being oblivious to Aerith's advances did not stop him from thinking her eyes were impressive, or that her smile was a good purchase, or prevent him from telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, or telling Aerith in Cosmo Canyon that he will always be there for her, or prevent him from going on a date with her, etc.

Cloud does not have to be in-tune to Aerith's advances to be romantically attracted to her, obviously.

2. So what if Aerith admits she doesn't know the real Cloud? She *WANTS* to get to know the real Cloud because of her romantic attraction to him:
"But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." -Aerith, Dismantled

Yeah, but when you say "continue their relationship", I assume you mean, in the romantic sense. Considering he never got as far picking up on her advances, nor did she get the chance to meet his real self in life, they would have to start their romantic relationship on the spiritual level. They weren't a couple in life.

Also -- there were bits and pieces of the real Cloud on disc 1:
“After developing his personality by using Zack’s memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics.The part of Cloud’s coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality.” ~page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Yes, fake Cloud has traits in common with the real Cloud, they share a great of memories after all. He is not, however, it's not like everytime he acted cool, the voice that usually can only talk to the other guy in his head sizes control.

3. You can argue that Cloud and Aerith's spiritual bond is not romantic, but it's still there.

Thanks, you generally don't seem too open about the idea.

 

[BlankBeat]

Yeah, but when you say "continue their relationship", I assume you mean, in the romantic sense. Considering he never got as far picking up on her advances, nor did she get the chance to meet his real self in life, they would have to start their romantic relationship on the spiritual level. They weren't a couple in life.

To me, the LTD has always revolved around the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

IMO, there is enough evidence to prove that Cloud did/does love Aerith. And although there is evidence that Cloud loves Tifa, too, there is no evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. Therefore, the LTD depends heavily on your own interpretation.

Yes, fake Cloud has traits in common with the real Cloud, they share a great of memories after all. He is not, however, it's not like everytime he acted cool, the voice that usually can only talk to the other guy in his head sizes control.

I think you need to re-read the quote again...

 

[Roger]

When I say real Cloud, I mean the guy we see getting pulled out of Cloud when he is handing over the Black Materia, the voice that tells the Cloud you control to ask Tifa and bout why they didn't hang during his return to Nibelheim, that guy never gets to interact with Aerith directly.

 

[Geostigma]

To me, the LTD has always revolved around the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

Thats interesting. I agree that thats part of the question but now that I think of it I think we should try to define the full question of what the LTD thread tries to debate.

Otherwise its doomed to go in circles..

Personally I always felt the LTD thread was also asking "Who does Cloud currently love" and saw ACC being more or less FF7's present time.

I dont really ship anything other then logic and for me thats always been cloti. Not that I mind clerith, it just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[eleamaya]

Hmm, I don't argue Maiden canonity. But. I think it's just irrelevant anymore. And why I say it’s irrelevant anymore? Think by logic, SE have rights to do retcon and CC even had made them revise AC and Case of Tifa even eject Last Order. So, why is it so hard just to throw away Dismantled and MoTP which the canonity is still questionable? Somehow I just think that Zerith canonity is reboot in CC. We can compare full quote in Dismantled of this:

I was a little surprised that this village was Zack’s birthplace! Although called my first love, that doesn’t mean that we became particularly intimate.
I encountered him by chance as a flower vendor in Midgar. It was good for a little while, so I thought. A friendly, childish SOLDIER, who even gave kindness to girls.
I encountered Zack and began to think that even a good natured person was from Shinra.
Therefore, 5 years ago, when Zack departed somewhere on a mission and he seemingly disappeared, I cried considerably. Yeah, I call this first love. Mother got angry at Zack when she saw me like that. That matter made him completely at fault.
At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack. But Cloud is clueless.

(- Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga.)

1) "Although called my first love, that doesn’t mean that we became particularly intimate" --> it's contradicted this quote: Zack and Aerith meet by chance in a church in the Slums. They become intimate with each other. (FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Compilation Timeline)

2) I encountered him by chance as a flower vendor in Midgar --> it's contradicted because Zack's the one who made her sell flower.

3) Gongaga is the place where Aerith said “I’m okay not to hear anything from him” --> And CC make it be more painful denial because the fact is SHE REALLY DO CARE BY WRITING 89 LETTERS.

If CC was never exist, I admit that the first love Aerith had ever felt is just fleeting as they never been closed. No wonder that she loves Cloud more than Zack. MoTP also brought the same Zerith issues as Dismantled. The quote “Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack” is only written in both. Well, SE just don’t remake Original Game. But even without remake, the Gongaga monologue would be rewritten differently in our mind compile to CC. But, don't get me wrong, I like the idea that Aerith move on, she deserve it, but it just didn't make her love one more than another. Yuna move on too but at the end Tidus is back, IMO it's the same as Aerith move on but at the end she reunite with Zack.

The only reliable quote is from Case of Lifestream White but Danseru had explained that we even could called a handsome male pop star as our “koibito”, means no two ways. And remember, it is all past tense before AC timeline. We dunno the present as we see ACC ending that “she” leave and a symbolic of flowers-blooming-in-his-grave and his-sword-rested-in-her-church. Please, don't bring up AC credit that Aerith had been removed. It's irrelevant.

 

[Dashell]

To me, the LTD has always revolved around the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

Well then... both

Can we lock the thread now?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To me, the LTD has always revolved around the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

That's really all it should be, which is why I can't understand why some folk need Maiden to be canon so badly for the sake of a line about Aerith's feelings.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's really all it should be, which is why I can't understand why some folk need Maiden to be canon so badly for the sake of a line about Aerith's feelings.

It's why I can't understand why people think a line in Lifestream white that's clearly just Aerith's POV says anything about Cloud's state of mind.

Also, I would cast the question as the ever so slightly different who does Cloud choose.

And he chose Tifa.

/Thread.

 

[BlankBeat]

And he chose Tifa.

And this is why the debate continues -- people state it as FACT that Cloud chose Tifa, when in reality, it is only an OPINION that he chose Tifa.

There is still no undeniable scene or piece of dialogue that unequivocally establishes Cloud and Tifa as romantic partners.

And I've already told everyone why raising Marlene and Denzel in particular doesn't suggest a romantic relationship, especially when you consider Barret's role as Marlene's Father. I've also told everyone why living at Seventh Heaven in particular doesn't suggest a romantic relationship, either.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

 

[Geostigma]

And this is why the debate continues -- people state it as FACT that Cloud chose Tifa, when in reality, it is only an OPINION that he chose Tifa.

There is still no undeniable scene or piece of dialogue that unequivocally establishes Cloud and Tifa as romantic partners.

And I've already told everyone why raising Marlene and Denzel in particular doesn't suggest a romantic relationship, especially when you consider Barret's role as Marlene's Father. I've also told everyone why living at Seventh Heaven in particular doesn't suggest a romantic relationship, either.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

And we've told you why you were wrong as well

 

[Dashell]

And this is why the debate continues -- people state it as FACT that Cloud chose Tifa, when in reality, it is only an OPINION that he chose Tifa.

To me it's about who he loves... he loves both, maybe things would have gone differently with Aerith (As Nojima said)... but he's with Tifa.


but he does love both

 

[BlankBeat]

And we've told you why you were wrong as well

And I've also continued to tell you why you are wrong. Until SE says something definitively, we simply have a difference of opinion.

What I take issue with is when people interchange opinion and fact.

 

[jazzflower92]

And I've also continued to tell you why you are wrong. Until SE says something definitively, we simply have a difference of opinion.

What I take issue with is when people interchange opinion and fact.

SE already has spoken which is Tifa and Cloud are the official couple and they are in love with each other deeply.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Actually, while when he was Illusory!Cloud, he certainly loved both, as proven by the 'wavers between two heroines' quote, I honestly doubt Real!Cloud was in love with Aerith, given that Aerith is dead by the time Cloud becomes himself again, and the fact that it's entirely plausible that Illusory!Cloud's love for Aerith was due to Zack's influence on his false persona. Not to mention the lack of even an indirect mention in the lifestream sequence, where we see into Cloud's fucking MIND.

And honestly, LTDers have argued about so many different things that the only thing that can be said for certain is that the LTD is about the FFVII love triangle between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. Actually, I'm not even sure that definition fits anymore, since sometimes we debate about stupid things like whether or not Barret is a part of the 7th Heaven family.

And honestly, the LTD at this point has become the 3rd most facepalm inducing debate regarding FFVII, with the 1st being the Aerith vs Aeris debates and the 2nd being the First Tsurugi debates.(Honorable mentions go to the whether or not Aerith can be or was meant to be resurrected debates, Tifa's boobs debates, and the whether or not Aerith sacrificed herself debates)

Sometimes I wonder why there are so many idiots in the FFVII fandom. I'm just glad most of them don't come here, and when they do they never stay. It's one of the reasons I love thus site so much. There's a lot less idiots. But I digress. All we can say for certain is that the LTD is supposed to be debates about the FFVII love triangle, Disc 1 Cloud loved both Tifa and Aerith, and Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship post-FFVII.

 

[Dashell]

SE already has spoken which is Tifa and Cloud are the official couple and they are in love with each other deeply.

In THOSE exact words too... wait

 

[Ryushikaze]

And this is why the debate continues -- people state it as FACT that Cloud chose Tifa, when in reality, it is only an OPINION that he chose Tifa.

No, it's a fact that it's a fact.

But I can see where it's confusing with you going LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU all this time.

There is still no undeniable scene or piece of dialogue that unequivocally establishes Cloud and Tifa as romantic partners.

No scene or piece of dialogue? Scenes and Pieces, kiddo. Mounds and Piles.

And I've already told everyone why raising Marlene and Denzel in particular doesn't suggest a romantic relationship, especially when you consider Barret's role as Marlene's Father. I've also told everyone why living at Seventh Heaven in particular doesn't suggest a romantic relationship, either.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

You've TOLD us this, yes, but you've failed to make ANY sort of convincing case.

You've failed to make a convincing anti C/T case.

Worse for you, you've utterly failed at making a C/A case that does not assume the consequent.

Narrative Shorthand, Occam's Razor, and Cinematic Storytelling are all conspiring against you.

Give up.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, while when he was Illusory!Cloud, he certainly loved both, as proven by the 'wavers between two heroines' quote, I honestly doubt Real!Cloud was in love with Aerith, given that Aerith is dead by the time Cloud becomes himself again, and the fact that it's entirely plausible that Illusory!Cloud's love for Aerith was due to Zack's influence on his false persona. Not to mention the lack of even an indirect mention in the lifestream sequence, where we see into Cloud's fucking MIND.

And honestly, LTDers have argued about so many different things that the only thing that can be said for certain is that the LTD is about the FFVII love triangle between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. Actually, I'm not even sure that definition fits anymore, since sometimes we debate about stupid things like whether or not Barret is a part of the 7th Heaven family.

And honestly, the LTD at this point has become the 3rd most facepalm inducing debate regarding FFVII, with the 1st being the Aerith vs Aeris debates and the 2nd being the First Tsurugi debates.(Honorable mentions go to the whether or not Aerith can be or was meant to be resurrected debates, Tifa's boobs debates, and the whether or not Aerith sacrificed herself debates)

Sometimes I wonder why there are so many idiots in the FFVII fandom. I'm just glad most of them don't come here, and when they do they never stay. It's one of the reasons I love thus site so much. There's a lot less idiots. But I digress. All we can say for certain is that the LTD is supposed to be debates about the FFVII love triangle, Disc 1 Cloud loved both Tifa and Aerith, and Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship post-FFVII.

Gonna have to correct you here.
Jenova Possession shitstorm and FFX connection deserve to be on that list, if not possibly ahead of the Fusion Swords debacle- which, while really fucking stupid, if far less of a thing than those were.

 

[Dashell]

Worse for you, you've utterly failed at making a C/A case that does not assume the consequent.

He HAS made a pretty good case for Cloud having feelings for Aerith though, which is, IMO a lot more than other debaters have done.

I guess I'm still unclear on what Blankbeat thinks happened... Cloud and Tifa shared mutual feelings of... what exactly? And if it was romance... then it just gets kinda weird... what two people love each other romantically then decide to live together platonicly? (which is apparently not a word)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He HAS made a pretty good case for Cloud having feelings for Aerith though, which is, IMO a lot more than other debaters have done.

Well, folks' minds will be blown when I publish my essay about the sky being blue.

I guess I'm still unclear on what Blankbeat thinks happened... Cloud and Tifa shared mutual feelings of... what exactly? And if it was romance... then it just gets kinda weird... what two people love each other romantically then decide to live together platonicly? (which is apparently not a word)

"Platonically" is what you're going for.