The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

but I thought once you black you can't go back

If that was the case, we'd never have white people to begin with.

Scratch "easier" and replace "emotionally rewarding to the audience and/or characters."

Though I kind of liked the "bad" end of FFX-2 better in some ways.......

Are you saying Barret's date is NOT the most emotionally rewarding date for everyone involved?

In any case, canon is canon. Sometimes we like it. Sometimes we argue against it and propose crazy alternate theories because it's not satisfying to us, like people did when they made the R=U theory, or the Well Organized Time Compression Cracktasticness.

 

[Lumina]

but I thought once you black you can't go back

Well my sister is really white skinned and both of her daughters have tanned skin. I also know of a girl with Dark skin and her son is Blonde, extremely white with Blue eyes. And I could go on...

 

[Ryushikaze]

I want to read about this one.

And I never cared for the R=U theory xD
The

Spoiler

Squall is dead theory

was kinda interesting though a bit silly imo. It was a good read since I had not heard of that before, despite, thinking the same think when I first played the game. No I didn't sit around after the credits, I thought that was it.

Oh, I'll have to even see if I can find it again. The guy never had a website, he just kept posting it to EoFF a lot.

 

[Celes Chere]

but searches for Aerith.

For her forgiveness. How is that romantic? I don't doubt he wants to see her. She's a fallen comrade who died right in his arms - why wouldn't he want to see her again? He wanted to see Zack too. Notice how every time Cloud speaks to one of them he is facing away? It's not until the ending that Cloud see's Aerith or Zacks' face. (besides the hand reach scene where Aerith gives the final boost)

They're both alone on a flower field with a background music, them in close proximity to each other, and with Cloud talking so sincerely. That's what I can call romantic.

And yet Cloud rushing to save Tifa and them laying together in the flowers in an even CLOSER proximity with their own themed music is not romantic at all? :/ I don't understand.

3. There was too much tension in C/T encounters.

That doesn't mean they don't love each other. In the reunion files (iirc) it says that through their hardships and overcoming them, they grow closer together... not further apart.

I agree with the "destined encounter". And it was sweet that only Cloud and Aerith were shown there.

Actually Cloud and Aerith's first meeting was when she sold a flower to him on the street.
Zack and Aerith had the same thing, except it was proven to be of love. Cloud and Aerith's destined encounter is only called that because it unravels the plot line. Look at the Zerith quotes compared to the 'Clerith' one:

Zerith:

The dull life in the Slum, the love with a SOLDIER who fell from the sky.

In CC, Aerith is just a 15-year-old girl. Under the surveillance from Shinra, who wanted to worm out the location of the Promise Land from the Ancients. Growing flowers seems trivial but it brought her joy while she lived at the Sector 5 Slums. At that chosen day, she met Zack, SOLDIER 1st Class, and they were attracted to each other…

She met Zack in the Sector 5 church, and became very
intimate with him

Quote: text near img of Aerith's pointing to the Church's roof
Just like Cloud in FF7, Zack fell to Aerith’s Church. Meeting him brings along her first love.

Aerith, the girl whom he met at the slum's church. The existence of the girl, who had earnestly come to love Zack with sincerity, eventually became irreplaceable to him.

The destined encounter with Zack makes them becomes the irreplaceable existence to each other.

The chosen day, Zack suddenly fell from the roof of the Church in the Slum. His bright confidence immediately catches her mind, and they start a relationship as a couple.

Repeating Zack’s look with Cloud’s.

Being an Ancient, Aerith did her utmost to save the Planet, even sacrificed life—in FF7, the impression of Aerith being such a tragic heroine is strong. Nevertheless, the most significant link to FF7 is the conversations about Cloud. The reason why she’s a flower girl when she first meets Cloud, the beginning of love with her first love, Zack, and the reason she saw Zack in Cloud—all those things we don’t know in FF7 are made clear in CC.

Clerith:

After the Reactor exploded, Cloud and Aerith merely exchanged words briefly. Meeting him again in her favorite Church

During a bombing mission with AVALANCHE in the Sector 5 Mako Reactor, they stumbled into a ShinRa trap and Cloud was caught in an explosion, falling down into the church in the Sector 5 Slum. He met Aerith again, and escorted her to her home.

Aerith sold flowers in Sector 5. It was there she met Cloud by accident

After the Reactor exploded, Cloud and Aerith merely exchanged words briefly. Meeting him again in her favorite Church, the wheel of Aerith’s destiny started spinning.

----

It's like you're so against people getting the impression of Clerith

I'm not against the idea of Clerith. Just looking at FFVII alone I see how people can see Cloud and Aerith as the couple. I just always believed Cloti had more proof. After FFVII, I think that Cloti is definitely canon. It's not that I am against seeing Clerith, it's that I don't believe that there is anything TO see.

 

[Dashell]

I sorta feel like people really aren't listening to one another...

Anastar, I'll respond to your response to me in a moment, but I want to clear something up here.

SE is quite familiar with the whole issue of the Love Triangle. IF a scene like the Highwind scene had a canon outcome that determined the Love Triangle, SE would say so. They've essentially said that the Date scene has a default outcome. If SE is willing to say that the Date has a default outcome, then why wouldn't they say that the Highwind scene has a canon outcome - IF a canon outcome truly exists?

Default/more easily achieved is equivalent to canon? So we're back to Shadow dying on the Floating Continent and FFX-2 not having a canon sequence of events?

She didn't say that. Her point was, if they say one scene has a default, why not say the other scene has a canon? And before you post all those feelings quotes, the "feelings" quotes don't prove it because they could have shared feelings in the low affection version as well. The only time romantic feelings are said to have been shared are in the high affection version.

そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

Anastar, I should point out (since Tres isn't pointing it out and I think this is where confusion is coming from) that THIS is what the page says that the FTOIL page links to. In other words in the main body of the story summery, it says they share romantic feelings.

In other other words, on this page:

The underlined version is talking about the High Affection scene. So of the quotes Tres posted before, 3 of the 8 specifically refer to romantic feelings.

I would also ALSO like to point out that in the 10th AU, after the line "They share mutual feelings blah blah" it has an image number for reference. That image shows a line that ONLY takes place in the High Affection version. So this line ""Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." is ALSO talking about romantic feelings.



So your response about some of them not saying "which feelings" is wrong. Many of them DO imply romantic feelings.

Lines talking about romantic feelings


1. (U20 Scenario, pg. 394)
「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

We KNOW this one is romantic because it's on the FTOIL page.

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

We know this is romantic because it's talking about the high Affection version.

3. (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

Talking about the HA version.

4. (U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

Talking about the HA version.

Quotes that don't say which feelings:

1. (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

3. (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

4. (CCU, pg. 33)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings no ifs ands or buts. That's a lot if you ask me. So which makes more sense. That half the quotes are speaking of some feelings we don't know, or that they are all talking about the same thing?

 

[Anastar]

Tres has already responded to the bulk of what was addressed to him specifically. I'll let his response stand.

Did he? I'll have to go back and look for his response. I'm sorry if I did not respond to it, Tres. I didn't see it.

It's interesting that you think THIS is SE 'explaining that a continuing romance is possible' but deny that C/T revealing feelings for each other, living with each other, belonging with each other, and having a future together isn't 'Se explaining that a continuing romance is.'

I didn't say that at all. I specifically said that Cloud and Tifa DO reveal their feelings for one another in the High Affection version of the Highwind scene. But I also said that only happens on an optional basis.

It is also optional for Cloud and Tifa to share mutual feelings of disinterest for each other romantically in the Low Affection version of the Highwind scene. SE clearly said that the Low Affection version is possible, and that it is one of two conditions in the Highwind scene:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

I see a clear statement that there are TWO versions of the conversation before the final battle. I also see a clear statement that the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change according to the degree of Tifa's affection.

I see nothing about one version of the conversation being canon.

If the conversation has two versions, then the conversation is optional.

You ARE cutting it down. Your arguments have focused on throwing quite frankly absurd arguments out to try and cast doubts on the case for C/T. That's been your strategy from the first.

If you take it that way, I'm sorry - but that is your problem, not mine.

First off, YES, YOU ARE. You are claiming that a realized romantic relationship is possible between the living and the dead. You are doing more than claiming it is possible, you are claiming it is there. You are claiming this without even demonstrating a romance between these two parties while alive. You are also claiming that a man deciding to have a relationship with the woman he's had a crush on since he was EIGHT and STILL HAS THOSE FEELINGS FOR is a more outrageous claim than having a romance with a ghost.

Yes, I am claiming that a relationship between the living and the dead is possible in a fantasy game where a dead man has come alive to battle the living on two different occasions. I'm claiming that a relationship between the living and the dead is possible in a fantasy game where a dead man summons a Meteor to destroy the Planet. I'm claiming that a relationship between the living and dead is possible in a fantasy game where a member of an extinct species finds a wife of the same extinct species and has several children. I'm claiming a relationship is possible between the living and dead in a fantasy game where the Planet produces several Weapons to defeat Jenova.

Guess what? Fantastic things happen in that game. The same game has Vincent stay in love with Lucrecia, who is, by the way, dead. I see the word "Love" written next to a picture of Cloud and Aerith in a commercial for FFVII:

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love. Furthermore, the voice over saying, "the story of a love that could never be" would mean that FFVII is a story about the love of Cloud and Aerith.

Although Cloti's often say that the phrase "a love that could never be" means that the love can never exist, it's been verified for us at allexperts.com that the phrase is actually talking about a love that exists despite circumstances that would normally prevent it. Here's a link to their answer:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing-Grammar-680/Meaning-phrase.htm

Nojima wrote a story about the same game where fantastic things happen in which Aerith calls Cloud her koibito (boyfriend/sweetheart/lover.) Nojima also wrote a story about the same game where he said the premise of the story was to show that problems would exist between Cloud and Tifa even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, and that he wasn't certain they'd be able to solve those problems after AC/ACC.

What you seem to ignore on this page of the 20th Anniversary Ultimania:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/PhoenixStar/20thAU-LoveBetweenHeroes.jpg

Is that there are TWO pictures of Cloud on that page. One of those pictures shows Cloud with Aerith, the other shows Cloud with Tifa. BOTH pictures are under the title "For the One I Love". BOTH pictures are under a caption saying that romantic love develops between the heroes of the games. BOTH pictures are labeled as having optional versions with a Deviation sidebar.

FFVII is the ONLY Final Fantasy game on that page with two pictures of the hero with two different girls.

There is a separate category or box on that page about non-romantic love, so neither picture belongs to that category.

Therefore, that page is actually saying that it is possible for Cloud to love either woman, and who Cloud loves is OPTIONAL to the player. It is NOT saying that one couple is canon and the other is not

You want a case for CloudxAerith, fine. You'll find one here:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay.htm

I will only discuss this essay with you and/or Tres and Discord if you continue discussing with me the subject of whether or not Cloti is canon. You may wonder about Cloud and Aerith, but I wonder about the legetimacry of your claim that Cloti is canon.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Quotes that don't say which feelings:

1. (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

3. (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

4. (CCU, pg. 33)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings no ifs ands or buts. That's a lot if you ask me. So which makes more sense. That half the quotes are speaking of some feelings we don't know, or that they are all talking about the same thing?

Are these undeclared-to-us feelings then supposed to be the ones shared in the low affection version? Seems strange that A) there were feelings shared to begin with in what is said to be an "apathetic and short" scene, and B) that they are mutual and lead to them living together.

What feelings are these quotes referring to then? What feelings does Tifa communicate to Cloud other that that? And why is she embarrassed the next morning when she finds out the party was listening? Because she confirmed her friendship with Cloud?

Why describe this scene then in the same words used to describe the HA version? That seems nonsensical if they are indeed intending to convey a distinction between the two versions.

If you're going to suggest an alternative explanation, you better be able to back it up.

 

[Dashell]

Also something I noticed:

I'm not absolutely positive about this, but I believe that the picture of the HW scene on the "For the One I Love" could actually be from either version of the scene. When it says that their feelings match in the caption, that could also be a reference to either version.

If that's true, wouldn't it hurt your case as it's saying both low and high affection are romantic? Or did I read that wrong?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

It is also optional for Cloud and Tifa to share mutual feelings of disinterest for each other romantically

In a scene where all leave to find those most important to them, Cloud and Tifa remain behind to spend the night together.....to discuss how much they are not interested in each other?

Do you realize how little sense you make?

If two people aren't interested in each other, then romance simply doesn't enter the conversation. It is assumed that unless two people do share their loveydovey feelings for each other, that they are NOT a couple. We do not need a whole fucking declaration to tell us they aren't. I do not see Cloud and Yuffie holding conversations about their mutual disinterest in each other. Or Tifa and Barret.

Unless one party is interested and the other is not, then sure. But then their feelings would not be mutual.

 

[Dashell]

Do you realize how little sense you make?

YOU WALKED INTO THAT!

but Imma just make another reply here:

Chantara:

Once again, that sounds optional to me. Yet, Cloti's decide that one version is canon - specifically, the version that coincides with their interpretation of the story. Yet, SE has never said that one version is canon.

you seem to be looking for an actual statement like "This version is canon" but they've never done that, so why would they for the HA scene. They never said, "Getting Vincent is canon", did they?

They don't TELL us these things, they SHOW us these things. And I'm talking about saying things are canon, not default

In the first place, your quote about the Lifestream event does not say that they revealed their romantic feelings for one another in the Lifestream. I've already responded to you about that quote more than once, but let's review it again:

Sorry I know you have but it was on CxA and I didn't want to reply back D:

is saying that Tifa did not realize at the time of the Promise that Cloud was holding feelings for her at the time of the Promise until he told her about it during the Lifesttream event. Cloud told Tifa during the Lifestream event that he was holding feelings (a crush) for her at that time of the Promise:

Past progressive means that something happened in the past and continues to the present or the point of reference.

In the first sentence, yes the point of reference is the promise scene. In the SECOND sentence the point of reference is the Lifestream event.

Let's look at this another way.

"Even though Ryushikaze was selling apples from some time ago, Tres didn't start until last July.

BTW, with Tres, he was unaware that Ryu was selling apples until he informed him at the picnic. Even though Tres and Ryu had hung out last July, he can be quite clueless."

So does this mean that Ryu is no longer selling apples at the time the picnic took place?

Cloud makes it clear that he had a crush on her at the time of the Promise. He does NOT say that he has feelings for her now. That's what your passage is talking about.

Yes he does. The younger Cloud says to Tifa that the older current present day cloud will be thrilled to hear she was searching for him. It's subtle, but that's when it takes place.

That becomes obvious when you stop to think about the fact that they supposedly confirm their feelings for one another during the HA HW scene. If they had already told one another that they love one another during the Lifestream event, then they wouldn't have to confirm it to one another during the HA HW scene. They'd already know about it.

The reveal of the feelings happened in the Lifestream, the confirming the feelings and discussing the feelings came under the Highwind.

Tres:

Now, seriously, you can continue with this bullshit, truth obscuring focus on a misreading of Ryu's comments from almost two years ago (in which case you will also have to make the plainly absurd claim that the scene with Terra lacks a canon outcome, and that Shadow's death or survival on the Floating Continent lacks a canon outcome, and that FFX-2's story does not have a canon sequence of events; and I'm inflating the length of this sentence, underlining it and including bold and italics tags around the most vital words herein to emphasize that this is the most important sentence in this entire post and that I expect you to address it if you post a response -- or just not bother replying at all; for real) or you can discuss something constructive like what criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not.

I KNOW this was for Anastar, but I think you misunderstood her. Some scenes that have deviations listed do not have canon outcomes. Are there deviation for the conversations that Tidus can have with Lulu or Rikku on the Snowmobile? What about at Guadosalam? BTW I'm asking cause I honestly don't know. If those are in there, I don't think it's ever been said or proven which of those is canon.

This is her point, that some scenes listed in the book with a deviation note have a canon outcome, whereas some do not. As for what decides which scenes do and do not have a canon outcome, that's up to you to discuss.

If you don't see it on pg. 232 then you're reading it as diligently/selectively as you read my previous post. Now READ:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...20highwind.jpg

そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

I think her response to this would be that that page doesn't say what feelings. however as I pointed out above, we know these to be the romantic feelings spoken of on FTOIL. You seem to be missing one of her arguments that says that the many quotes speaking of sharing feelings don't tell us what feelings. She does NOT believe that all the feeling quotes ONLY related to the High Affection scene. This is where lines are getting crossed. You take all those quotes to be only about the HA version (I agree with you BTW ) but you need to convince her of that.

I'm just pointing this out because I know she's said this but it seems like it's getting looked over.

So, Annie, how soon can I expect a response from you in which you don't address the above bolded, italicized and underlined portions of this post, or just refuse to address anything at all because your delicate nature insists I'm not being civil enough?

Except she doesn't back out of debates because of this. I know others do but she'll just bite back harder.

 

[Celes Chere]

but she'll just bite back harder

Shaking in my boots.

 

[Dashell]

I so read that as boobs

and for the record, I meant harder than she bit last time, not that she'll beat the snot out of Tres or anything.

 

[Celes Chere]

Tres is so lovable. <3 Who would want to do such a thing anyway?

 

[Master Bates]

In any case, I'm a dentist. If you ever need spare dentures for this oncoming "biting session", come to me and I'll charge you double.

I lied. I'm talking shit and I'm full of shit.

 

[Vendel]

Yes, I am claiming that a relationship between the living and the dead is possible

How about two dead people?

in a fantasy game where a dead man has come alive to battle the living on two different occasions.

Remind me again. Does Aerith or anyone else have the ability to control and the availability of Jenova cells?

I'm claiming that a relationship between the living and the dead is possible in a fantasy game where a dead man summons a Meteor to destroy the Planet.

A man who by sheer will controls a cosmic horror. Plus I would say in FFVII before Jenova is destroyed he is only mostly dead.

I'm claiming that a relationship between the living and dead is possible in a fantasy game where a member of an extinct species finds a wife of the same extinct species and has several children.

If two members of a species exist you can't exactly call them extinct. Just saying.

I'm claiming a relationship is possible between the living and dead in a fantasy game where the Planet produces several Weapons to defeat Jenova.

Are they dead weapons?

Guess what? Fantastic things happen in that game. The same game has Vincent stay in love with Lucrecia, who is, by the way, dead. I see the word "Love" written next to a picture of Cloud and Aerith in a commercial for FFVII:

Point of order. Lucrecia isn't dead.

And I'm not sure what a commercial made in 1997 has to do with Vincent and Lucrecia. Or any of that list of "points" you made. Kind of a non sequitur there.

Is that there are TWO pictures of Cloud on that page. One of those pictures shows Cloud with Aerith, the other shows Cloud with Tifa. BOTH pictures are under the title "For the One I Love". BOTH pictures are under a caption saying that romantic love develops between the heroes of the games. BOTH pictures are labeled as having optional versions with a Deviation sidebar.

FFVII is the ONLY Final Fantasy game on that page with two pictures of the hero with two different girls.

There is a separate category or box on that page about non-romantic love, so neither picture belongs to that category.

Therefore, that page is actually saying that it is possible for Cloud to love either woman, and who Cloud loves is OPTIONAL to the player. It is NOT saying that one couple is canon and the other is not

You seem to be fixated on the pictures and not what is underneath them. Which is why I guess you left out Yuffie and Barret in your scenario. I mean it's only 50% of the available options.


I know why Tifa is there. It clearly talks about her and Cloud's mutual romantic feelings. But remind me again, what does that page say about Aerith? It must say something about her if you are going to remove Yuffie (and Barret) from your options list and just focus on her.

 

[ClerithRaven]

I see.. But what have you actually watched/read etc. that involves FFVII?
At least AC/C and Maiden, right?

Nope. I've watched tons of walkthroughs throughout the 2 years I've been online, although I can't say that I've watched everything. I just paid attention to those which are always used in debates, like the HA/LA HW scene or Aerith's death, the bonfire scene, etc... And yes, I've watched AC/C. My brother and I also played DoC and CC. I was watching and would butt in at times. My hands aren't that fast enough when it comes to gunning, but I like the feel of it. LOL.
I've also read some of MotP and CoLW, albeit not in full yet. But CoT, I've finished. I could get back to reading by our break. Hopefully, I find more material online.

I... don't know?

Haha! Let's just drop it then? I'll be replying to Ryu soon, so you could pick out my arguments there. :]

Sleep well you too!

I didn't. Huhu!

 

[Master Bates]

Nope. I've watched tons of walkthroughs throughout the 2 years I've been online, although I can't say that I've watched everything. I just paid attention to those which are always used in debates, like the HA/LA HW scene or Aerith's death, the bonfire scene, etc... And yes, I've watched AC/C. My brother and I also played DoC and CC. I was watching and would butt in at times. My hands aren't that fast enough when it comes to gunning, but I like the feel of it. LOL.
I've also read some of MotP and CoLW, albeit not in full yet. But CoT, I've finished. I could get back to reading by our break. Hopefully, I find more material online.

Why does this give me the vibe that you see FFVII as a romance story? No offense but this here is a problem. If you're only going to look at scenes that focus on Tifa-Cloud-Aerith then you'd definitely get some scenes out of context, like for example, the Aerith death. No, it's not romantic, it's tragic. It's not about Cloud losing his "true love", it's about Sephiroth attempting to make Cloud feel less like human. If you want love story, go play FFVIII.

 

[Super Mario]

FFVII is not a romance story, it is an adventure and tale of self discovery and finding who you really are in the face of evil. There's only a minute subtlety of romance to it, and that's what makes the series wonderful. My opinion on this matter is and always will be, tied to Cloti. Clerith was there at some point, but Cloud had long forgotten the love and lingered purely on guilt by AC and that is what defeated him until he shouldered it.

 

[ClerithRaven]

For her forgiveness. How is that romantic? I don't doubt he wants to see her. She's a fallen comrade who died right in his arms - why wouldn't he want to see her again? He wanted to see Zack too. Notice how every time Cloud speaks to one of them he is facing away? It's not until the ending that Cloud see's Aerith or Zacks' face. (besides the hand reach scene where Aerith gives the final boost)

Uhm, I think I was contesting Cloud hiding from everyone including Aerith at that quote.
Uh no. Aerith didn't die in his arms. She was already dead by the time he had held her. At least, that's what I remember. Plus, he held her body so close to his. *squee* Sorry, I'm a fangirl-it's become a habit. :p
Another thing, he's not facing away from them. It's just that they are always back to back with him, not until the ending. But, with Aerith, he tries to look at her face. Which he didn't do for Zack.
Speaking of the hand reach scene, did you see his eyes there?

Btw, are we still debating my first impression on AC in this? If you're referring to ACC, well, then I can put in what I've learned after searching through the net for two years. :]

And yet Cloud rushing to save Tifa and them laying together in the flowers in an even CLOSER proximity with their own themed music is not romantic at all? :/ I don't understand.

Even closer proximity? Hmm, maybe. They weren't exactly face-to-face, and their faces were at least 4 inches away from each other.

If we're still talking about my impression. At first, yeah, it did seem romantic. Especially since I saw that before the scene with Aerith. But I did notice the droplet of water. Somehow, it reminded me of the first part of the film where something green (the materia) fell on the water and someone (Aerith) was being lowered to the lake. So I thought the droplet scene was somehow connected to her. And it seems I was right.
~I spoke from my 13/14 year old view here.

Now, for my 18-year-old self, I would contest that own themed music. I thought that theme was "Water"? And even before that scene, AC/C had the scene of a droplet of water. Don't all of those point to one person (Aerith) and not the two of them? And, they were in Aerith's flowerbed... so I wouldn't call it a scene for the two of them..

That doesn't mean they don't love each other. In the reunion files (iirc) it says that through their hardships and overcoming them, they grow closer together... not further apart.

I was talking about why I didn't see the romance in AC when I was 13/14-ish. :]

Actually Cloud and Aerith's first meeting was when she sold a flower to him on the street.

And I've read his thoughts on that first meeting. Looked like he was attracted to her.

Zack and Aerith had the same thing, except it was proven to be of love.

They met at the Church, from what I remember? Aerith wasn't even selling flowers at the time. Still, a teenage love nonetheless.

Cloud and Aerith's destined encounter is only called that because it unravels the plot line.

So to you, a meeting that's part of their "destiny" isn't romantic? That's where we differ then. :]

Look at the Zerith quotes compared to the 'Clerith' one:

Zerith:














Clerith:









----

Uhm, we have other quotes for Clerith which you did not have here. And to me, it just seems like SE won't say anything that obvious to Clerith since there's the LTD. As for Zerith, it's already been confirmed that they were together. Though that ended when Aerith moved on.

I'm not against the idea of Clerith. Just looking at FFVII alone I see how people can see Cloud and Aerith as the couple. I just always believed Cloti had more proof. After FFVII, I think that Cloti is definitely canon. It's not that I am against seeing Clerith, it's that I don't believe that there is anything TO see.

Like Eileen said, you see want to *want* to see. :]

Why does this give me the vibe that you see FFVII as a romance story? No offense but this here is a problem. If you're only going to look at scenes that focus on Tifa-Cloud-Aerith then you'd definitely get some scenes out of context, like for example, the Aerith death. No, it's not romantic, it's tragic. It's not about Cloud losing his "true love", it's about Sephiroth attempting to make Cloud feel less like human. If you want love story, go play FFVIII.

At the time I was wondering what made the LTD as it is. I mean, I really thought that Cloud and Aerith were clear to be lovers. But to my surprise, people online were debating about it. So I thought I'd see for myself what the fuss was all about. I haven't had the time to watch more since I've entered college.
And FYI, I do try to research context of scenes. Sometimes, the arguments I've read didn't make sense to me so I found the time to get the background of it all.

 

[Master Bates]

At the time I was wondering what made the LTD as it is. I mean, I really thought that Cloud and Aerith were clear to be lovers. But to my surprise, people online were debating about it. So I thought I'd see for myself what the fuss was all about. I haven't had the time to watch more since I've entered college.
And FYI, I do try to research context of scenes. Sometimes, the arguments I've read didn't make sense to me so I found the time to get the background of it all.

The thing is you are selective reading/watching. You are selecting data from the entire compilation, not taking it as a whole. By only looking at Tifa-Cloud-Aerith related scenes, you are processing data from incomplete information. How do you expect yourself to grasp the exact context from that?

And I could say the same to you. I first played the game when I was freaking 11 and thought otherwise. When I discovered the internet and fandom (specifically GameFAQS), I was surprised there was even a gigantic debate about this. Although I believed the OG game was supposed to be Cloud and Tifa, I would also argue that there was still room for speculation. But with all these information post-OG, I can't say that anymore. But of course you shouldn't (and I know you won't) take my word as fact.

Anyways, let's not talk about first impressions. First impressions aren't always correct, you see. When I first played FFVIII, I thought Squall died at the end (yeah, i didn't stick through the entire ending the first time k?) and boy was I wrong. Not only was I misinformed/uninformed but I also misinterpreted the scene. Then there was this friend of mine who didn't play the game. When he first watch AC (not ACC), he thought Sephiroth was gay and is after Cloud's ass (not that he's entirely wrong, right? ) to have sexxors. Was he correct? Hell no.

This is one reason why I don't like the "impression" and "interpretation" cards. They mean no shit.

@ClerithRaven: Not going to reply to all of it since it's not directed at me, but I think you got the "destiny" part wrong. When it's mentioned refering to FF7, it means Aerith's destiny, as in her destiny as Cetra started, it's not related to anything romantic. It means that when Cloud met Aerith, her destiny as Ancient started. (I'm pretty sure that has been quoted before too)

Unraveling the plot is what I took that quote for.

P.S. I'm scared of Vendel. Methinks he's obsessed with the LTD. Please don't kill me.

Another note: Imma gonna hit the sack because someone's after my shiny ass. Good day~

 

[Ryushikaze]

Did he? I'll have to go back and look for his response. I'm sorry if I did not respond to it, Tres. I didn't see it.

The post, literally immediately above yours.
This post

How did you miss it? I'm tempted to quote it all at you just for emphasis.

I didn't say that at all. I specifically said that Cloud and Tifa DO reveal their feelings for one another in the High Affection version of the Highwind scene. But I also said that only happens on an optional basis.

But Cloud wanting Tifa by his side, them forming a family together, them having a future together, none of that is optional.
And revealing their feelings for each other is what happens, period. If that only happens in the high version, then merely the high version is canon.

It is also optional for Cloud and Tifa to share mutual feelings of disinterest for each other romantically in the Low Affection version of the Highwind scene. SE clearly said that the Low Affection version is possible, and that it is one of two conditions in the Highwind scene:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

Yes, a deviation. Not a declaration that there's no official version, but a noting that there's more than one way a scene can turn out. As the examples of Shadow and Tidus should once again show, scene deviations do not prevent official versions of that deviation from existing. And no, that does not saying anything about 'mutual feelings of disinterest' that is something you have made up. As both Balthea and OWD have pointed out, you're being very silly here. The affection value is purely a game mechanic. It raises and lowers for entirely arbitrary reasons, and does not change Cloud at all. Cloud is static in the AV game. Likewise, even when Tifa's AV is low, her interest in Cloud doesn't change. And 'feelings of disinterest' is kinda oxymoronic in its own right.

Even if this line of thinking was true, how does one go from 'mutually confirmed feelings of disinterest for each other' to 'Cloud feels he can succeed at his new life where previously he had failed because this time he will have Tifa by his side in a different way that before' How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together, raise children together, and have a future together? 'Mutual disinterest' does not logically follow with the rest of the compilation.

I see a clear statement that there are TWO versions of the conversation before the final battle. I also see a clear statement that the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change according to the degree of Tifa's affection.

I see nothing about one version of the conversation being canon.

If the conversation has two versions, then the conversation is optional.

By this logic, Shadow neither officially lived or died and the same goes for Tidus.

If you take it that way, I'm sorry - but that is your problem, not mine.

No, Aly, it's still very much your problem. You're the one making the case against the opposition rather than the case for your own position. Even if you invalidate the claims of others, your claims are not validated as a result.

Yes, I am claiming that a relationship between the living and the dead is possible in a fantasy game where a dead man has come alive to battle the living on two different occasions.

Sephiroth survived the first time. He's only come back once, and doing so was a perversion of the highest order to the ideals of the dead woman you say has a romance with the living.

I'm claiming that a relationship between the living and the dead is possible in a fantasy game where a dead man summons a Meteor to destroy the Planet.

Again, he wasn't dead at that point. And even if he was, he quite literally had a living servant do the grunt work for him.

I'm claiming that a relationship between the living and dead is possible in a fantasy game where a member of an extinct species finds a wife of the same extinct species and has several children.

Red XIII being the last of his kind has always been an assumption. Bugen was always certain he'd find another.

I'm claiming a relationship is possible between the living and dead in a fantasy game where the Planet produces several Weapons to defeat Jenova.

But none of that automatically translates to the dead and the living being able to consistently and regularly converse.
Also, Vendel had a point. If it's possible between alive and dead, why not two dead people?

Guess what? Fantastic things happen in that game.

Fantastic things happen in Final Fantasy IV, but Gilbart doesn't get to make sweet love to Anna's ghost. Rydia's mom doesn't get to come back for fireside chats with her daughter. Cecil's dad can only make make a ghostly voice appear, and his mom's shit outta luck entirely.
Fantastic things happen in FF8, but Raine is still dead.
Fantastic things happen in FF13, but Sazh's wife does not come back.
Fantasy does not automatically mean it is possible for the dead and the living to freely interact. Again, this is something you need to support can happen regularly. Then you need to explain why despite it being possible, it does not happen more often, why in the present case, it takes two years to happen. You need to demonstrate first that it's possible, then that it's actual. This includes making a primary case for the romance when it was between two living people.

The same game has Vincent stay in love with Lucrecia, who is, by the way, dead. I see the word "Love" written next to a picture of Cloud and Aerith in a commercial for FFVII:

Lucrecia isn't dead. She actually can't die.
If we're going with that commercial, whose hate always was? Commercials are not trustworthy sources of information. While they CAN contain accurate information, they can also contain entirely INaccurate information as well, and are not reliable sources in the slightest. Unless you think Tina has visited Tokyo or Mog is responsible for all the monsters in FFVI, then you'll agree with me that the information in commercials must be rated for accuracy against the source material. It is not authoritative on its own.
Also, EFUCKGADS no WONDER your post was moderated. That image tag had like three pages of junk nonsense included in it.

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love. Furthermore, the voice over saying, "the story of a love that could never be" would mean that FFVII is a story about the love of Cloud and Aerith.

There's no reason to show Tina riding a Magitek armor around Tokyo if she never did it. There's no reason to show Mog having auditions for monsters if he didn't bring them into the game. Etc. etc.
Look, the FFVIII commercial got it wrong too. Your argument here is based on MARKETING MATERIALS. The stuff that exists to sell you the product, not inform you of its content.

Although Cloti's often say that the phrase "a love that could never be" means that the love can never exist, it's been verified for us at allexperts.com that the phrase is actually talking about a love that exists despite circumstances that would normally prevent it. Here's a link to their answer:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing-Grammar-680/Meaning-phrase.htm

No, A love that can never be- and this is granting arguendo that the love discussed is mutual- is one that is prevented from actually happening. That's what happened to Romeo and Juliet. Their love couldn't be and it was undone. They both bit it at the end of the play. Incidentally, this is a phrase that does not appear in the body of the play at all. I've also seen it used in other forms, where a low class woman regretted that her love for an upperclass man could never be because of societal issues. It's not always discussing people already in love, though I do not deny it can be. This is a common problem, I fear. Many times, your points, and those of your fellow Cleriths are not quite addressing the points and arguments raised by those you debate with, but ones slightly or materially different than them. I don't think anyone is actually saying it's 'prevented from ever being love,' we're saying 'it's prevented from ever being practically realized.' And if it is capable, then it's not a love that can never be, which kinda makes bringing the commercial a bad move for you. If the love can never be, then it can't be recognized post mortem.
But again, it is commercial, so I guess you think Tina Branford really DID visit Tokyo in the mid 90s in a Magitek Armor and Mog really was responsible for Zapping monsters in the FF3us game cart. [facetiousexcitement]MAYBE THE TWO ARE RELATED![/facetiousexcitement]

Nojima wrote a story about the same game where fantastic things happen in which Aerith calls Cloud her koibito (boyfriend/sweetheart/lover.) Nojima also wrote a story about the same game where he said the premise of the story was to show that problems would exist between Cloud and Tifa even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, and that he wasn't certain they'd be able to solve those problems after AC/ACC.

Yes, and? No one here is expecting rainbow sunshine farts from the relationship. He also said he hadn't wanted to get into his thoughts on love and marriage in the novella, then laughed to indicate he had. He also said that with the kids they probably could.

What you seem to ignore on this page of the 20th Anniversary Ultimania:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/PhoenixStar/20thAU-LoveBetweenHeroes.jpg

Is that there are TWO pictures of Cloud on that page. One of those pictures shows Cloud with Aerith, the other shows Cloud with Tifa. BOTH pictures are under the title "For the One I Love". BOTH pictures are under a caption saying that romantic love develops between the heroes of the games. BOTH pictures are labeled as having optional versions with a Deviation sidebar.

FFVII is the ONLY Final Fantasy game on that page with two pictures of the hero with two different girls.

And that's why we look at the text on the page. Consult the greater context of the information that we have already established. The pictures tell us little. apart from when these take place. The text tells us the what, the salient details. It tells us the date can happen multiple ways, but that the high highwind results in mutual feelings. By context, these are of romance.

There is a separate category or box on that page about non-romantic love, so neither picture belongs to that category.

Yes, I'm aware. If you will actually pay attention, I don't deny that the date scenes are all about romance. 3 of the four are the girls trying to make a move and the fourth is Barret accusing Cloud of making one (Insert Yaoi overtones here). I just note that Cloud is officially utterly oblivious of the feelings for Tifa and Aerith during these moments, and that he makes no romantic overtures here. Contrast to the Night under the highwind, where romantic feelings are mutually confirmed. period. End of. And that this scene occurs after Cloud and Tifa become aware of the feelings the other holds.

Therefore, that page is actually saying that it is possible for Cloud to love either woman, and who Cloud loves is OPTIONAL to the player. It is NOT saying that one couple is canon and the other is not

No. At most it's saying he can love both women. But not either. Because one of those statements is not conditional. It's not conditional on the information page either. You keep ignoring the example of Shadow's possible demise, but deviations do not prevent a canon outcome. Tres covered this. I covered this. You keep ignoring it because you don't want to face it.

You want a case for CloudxAerith, fine. You'll find one here:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay.htm

I will only discuss this essay with you and/or Tres and Discord if you continue discussing with me the subject of whether or not Cloti is canon. You may wonder about Cloud and Aerith, but I wonder about the legetimacry of your claim that Cloti is canon.

'legetimacry?' I assure you, there's nothing wrong with the legetimacry of the claim. Why the legetimacry is a finely honed political body. And I know you wonder about the legitimacy of what I say, but even without this page, the case for C/T is quite a lot stronger than the case for C/A. Heck, deciding to kill off a character involved in a romantic triangle is a classic way of ending the triangle. It's even tradition in Japanese literature!
I don't want one of your essays, Anastar, especially since referencing your site or any other site is currently expressly verboten in this singular thread and by the current no excuses tolerance policy, you should be threadbanned for posting that. I want you to, on the fly, here in this thread, present the evidence to make your case. If your case is strong, it should be no problem.

Anastar, I've heard that you said you came here to make an example to those who were complaining about debates. Well, you're certainly giving us an example, but it's probably not the one you were hoping to set.

@CR, I await your response. As far as the game goes, I for one will not look down on you for pirating a ten year old out of print PC game if you cannot afford its purchase, though that you've played CC indicates you have the console to actually get the game legitimately for cheap. I do stress that actually engaging the game as much as you can will unveil so much more about the total context of the story than simply reading or even watching bits and pieces can.

 

[Celes Chere]

Uhm, I think I was contesting Cloud hiding from everyone including Aerith at that quote.
Uh no. Aerith didn't die in his arms. She was already dead by the time he had held her. At least, that's what I remember. Plus, he held her body so close to his. *squee* Sorry, I'm a fangirl-it's become a habit. :p
Another thing, he's not facing away from them. It's just that they are always back to back with him, not until the ending. But, with Aerith, he tries to look at her face. Which he didn't do for Zack.
Speaking of the hand reach scene, did you see his eyes there?

Btw, are we still debating my first impression on AC in this? If you're referring to ACC, well, then I can put in what I've learned after searching through the net for two years. :]

Well I didn't literally mean she died in his arms. She died, he held her lifeless body- the point is her death had a huge impact on him and why shouldn't it? He just failed her when he was so near to her. He had every reason to feel the blame, though the blame wasn't his. How is that in any way romantic? I see a lot of Clerith arguments are: Cloud holding Tifa is NOT romantic! She's passed out!
And yet when Cloud holds a dead Aerith it is true love? I don't understand.
Back to back would be facing away, though... And yes I did see the eyes. ;P That's why I said "besides the hand reach scene" because he saw her face there. Anyway, why should he not try seeing her? It doesn't prove anything romantic at all. xD Uh, I always refer to ACC now usually since it's the newer version. XD

Now, for my 18-year-old self, I would contest that own themed music. I thought that theme was "Water"? And even before that scene, AC/C had the scene of a droplet of water. Don't all of those point to one person (Aerith) and not the two of them? And, they were in Aerith's flowerbed... so I wouldn't call it a scene for the two of them..

Before ACC the theme was water yeah, but they changed it to anxious heart. I personally find that romantic and shows the focus is on Cloud and Tifa. The droplet and the song are related to Aerith, yes. It's Aerith who heals Cloud and Tifa. Doesn't negate the Cloud and Tifa moment though.

I was talking about why I didn't see the romance in AC when I was 13/14-ish. :]

Well.. can we speak about the present? O_o

And I've read his thoughts on that first meeting. Looked like he was attracted to her.

Attracted and love - big difference.

They met at the Church, from what I remember? Aerith wasn't even selling flowers at the time. Still, a teenage love nonetheless.

Cloud and Aerith first met on the street. Zack and Aerith first met in the church. Why does it matter if she was selling flowers or not? It's Zack who tells her she should start selling them and they sell them together for awhile.

So to you, a meeting that's part of their "destiny" isn't romantic? That's where we differ then. :]

It doesn't even say Cloud and Aerith's destiny, it simply says the wheels of Aerith's destiny begin turning.

Though that ended when Aerith moved on.

Speaking of something SE never confirmed... And what other quotes did I miss for Clerith, speaking ONLY of the first time they met?

 

[Anastar]

Ariadne

First of all, I'm sorry if you ever thought I was calling you a liar because I never intended to say anything like that about you. I do not think you are a liar, and I do not think you're trying to "pull something". What I did try to do was respond to you honestly and thoroughly. If what I said offended you in any way, I'm sorry for that.

Apparently, what I said offended Ryu, too, since I found his last post to me yesterday to be rather rude.

I'm not trying to be rude. But hey, I think you and other Cloti's are drawing the wrong conclusion when you say that Cloti is canon. I'm trying to tell you why, and I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with you about it. That's all.

So why don't you and me and Ryu and Discord try to have a polite and honest discussion with each another, instead of trying to insult one another?

My forehead is literally in my palm, sweetness. In the post to which you replied here I already said that a scene being under player control can have an official version.

And where did I say you didn't say that?

So you drawing a conclusion that follows a basis of "if a scene under player control can't have an official version" means you either read some of the post but not all of it, or are deliberately being intellectually dishonest by focusing on -- in this case, Ryu's to begin with rather than my own -- a poor choice of wording that, even if inaccurate, still doesn't carry any authority on the topic being discussed.

And it sounds to me like you're only reading part of MY post, because what I said is that the statement under the Clerith date scene having no official outcome contradicts the rest of your article as well as undermining the main point.

For that matter, focusing on what he said to mean what you've insisted it does is really only possible in the first place if you take Ryu's wording to mean something other than what he obviously really meant -- not that a scene under player control can't have a canon outcome, but that the book said the specific scene he was talking about didn't have a canon outcome because of its own focus on the player's control of the situation.

Then the statement should be clarified, because it says that a scene under player control can't have an official outcome.

Tl;dr: the book said there wasn't a canon outcome for the date because it focused on the player's control over the matter -- Ryu only reported the book saying this rather than making an argument that a scene that the player has control over can't have a canon outcome.

Then it should be clarified.

And for that matter, even if he had said such nonsense, him being wrong doesn't mean diddly dick with regard to the canonicity of the optional scene being discussed or any other optional scene. Ryu could be wrong and an optional scene still have a canon outcome, because the latter is not dependent on the former.

Your focus on his wording is ridiculous. It's like you're trying to "win" a political debate by making "Oh, snap!" comebacks instead of getting to the heart of the matter, where the facts are the facts independent of who said what and how right or wrong their specific choice of phrasing is.

Actually, I didn't focus on the wording. My main point, and the point on which I tried to focus, is that what is said on page 232 is that there are two versions of the Highwind scene, and that which version you get is determined by Tifa's affection rating with Cloud.

What that means is that the Highwind scene is optional - not that it has a canon outcome.

This is like when a creationist goes after the concept of evolution by trying to attack Darwin or by spreading the lie that he had recanted his findings on his deathbed. Even if Darwin's personal research was faulty or if he had made such a deathbed change of mind it wouldn't reflect on the validity of the concept of evolution. It's not held as a truth in the field of science because Darwin said it; it's held as a truth because that's what the evidence independent of anyone (including Darwin) has demonstrated.

If that's the way you see my argument, that's the way you see it. I'm truly sorry if you see my post as so insulting, since I actually have a great deal of respect for you and I wouldn't want to insinuate that you are a liar or that you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not going to respond any further to this post because I've already made my main point. I hope that clarifies things for you, and that we can get along better in our next exchange.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Hey Chantara, I know you're not speaking to me at present but I gotta weigh in here. You still seem to be ignoring the point being made, that being that just because there are optional variations on the Highwind scene does not preclude there being a canon version. That, being as how there can in fact be a canon outcome despite the divergence available in the game, the content of page 232 does not invalidate the point made in the article.

I made this comparison a while back, but it seemed illustrative to me so I make it again. I don't know if you've ever played a fighting game before, but even if not you probably are aware of the many, many divergences in various scenes that take place within them. Most common and obvious are the endings, in that every single character will generally have their own ending scene showing what happens when they win the tournament or whatever. The many optional variations, however, do not preclude just one version of the ending from being canonical when further works or information come out. The Highwind scene is like that, there are two versions, but that does not in any way prevent us from seeing which one really happened.

Now with that comparison out of the way, lemme comment on some of your points made to Tres.

And it sounds to me like you're only reading part of MY post, because what I said is that the statement under the Clerith date scene having no official outcome contradicts the rest of your article as well as undermining the main point.

In what way does a comment that one scene has no official outcome contradict the rest of the article and undermine its point? One scene has no official outcome so no scene can? Is that what you're saying? Because that's clearly not the case with regards to the compilation. The frequently made comparison between the HA/LA Highwind scene and the Dead/Living Shadow bits in FFVI seem apt as ever. Shadow's continuing to live past the Floating continent in FFVI was entirely optional, yet the Ultimania clearly presents the scenario in which he survived to confront Kefka as official.

Then the statement should be clarified, because it says that a scene under player control can't have an official outcome.

I'm mildly confused by this. Where did anything ever say that the scene we're discussing can't have an official outcome?

What that means is that the Highwind scene is optional - not that it has a canon outcome.

The Highwind scene is in no way optional. You cannot get through the game without seeing it. You can effect which of its two versions you see if you wish, but that's about it. And its pretty clear, reading the information provided, that either the HA version of the scene is officially what happened, or that even in the LA version events still took place that led to Cloud and Tifa confirming their feelings and forming their family together. Nothing else makes sense, going on what SE have given us.

I'm not going to respond any further to this post because I've already made my main point.

See though, your point looks pretty nearly identical to the many other times it has been made. "Page 232 shows a variation that can be seen in the game so there cannot be an official version!" That still doesn't support your position any better than it did the first time it was said, which is what is being asked of you and others of your position. Where are your supporting facts that have been requested? Like supporting that a relationship between the living Cloud and the departed Aerith being feasible? Your supporting facts for the romance between Cloud and Aerith existing in the first place? This still looks more like tearing down CXT than it does supporting CXA to me.

 

[ClerithRaven]

@ClerithRaven: Not going to reply to all of it since it's not directed at me, but I think you got the "destiny" part wrong. When it's mentioned refering to FF7, it means Aerith's destiny, as in her destiny as Cetra started, it's not related to anything romantic. It means that when Cloud met Aerith, her destiny as Ancient started. (I'm pretty sure that has been quoted before too)

Oh? I haven't seen that quote. Well, if it was mentioned here, it wasn't directed at me so I didn't quite see.

The thing is you are selective reading/watching. You are selecting data from the entire compilation, not taking it as a whole. By only looking at Tifa-Cloud-Aerith related scenes, you are processing data from incomplete information. How do you expect yourself to grasp the exact context from that?

I'm not saying I grasp everything at all. I'm pretty sure I've admitted to having incomplete knowledge of everything concerning the LTD. Like I said, I've done the research about 2-3 years ago. That stopped when I entered college. And might I add, even though I selected what I've watched, the arguments still referred to other scenes that relate to what I've watched so I did watch those too just to see where the argument came from.

And I could say the same to you. I first played the game when I was freaking 11 and thought otherwise. When I discovered the internet and fandom (specifically GameFAQS), I was surprised there was even a gigantic debate about this. Although I believed the OG game was supposed to be Cloud and Tifa, I would also argue that there was still room for speculation. But with all these information post-OG, I can't say that anymore. But of course you shouldn't (and I know you won't) take my word as fact.

The difference is that you played the game first. But for me, AC was my first clue to the world of FF games. I've said it before, I thought FF was a series of animations, not games. The only time I discovered it was a game was one year later when a friend of mine gave me a copy of FFX-2 (Hell I didn't even get to play FFX until after a year or more later).
Regarding your last line, it's simply because we also see the same thing for our side.

Anyways, let's not talk about first impressions. First impressions aren't always correct, you see. When I first played FFVIII, I thought Squall died at the end (yeah, i didn't stick through the entire ending the first time k?) and boy was I wrong. Not only was I misinformed/uninformed but I also misinterpreted the scene. Then there was this friend of mine who didn't play the game. When he first watch AC (not ACC), he thought Sephiroth was gay and is after Cloud's ass (not that he's entirely wrong, right? ) to have sexxors. Was he correct? Hell no.

It's because someone kept debating about why I saw Clerith the first time I watched AC! And boy, it was annoying.

This is one reason why I don't like the "impression" and "interpretation" cards. They mean no shit.

So how do you get the context without interpreting the facts?

Well I didn't literally mean she died in his arms. She died, he held her lifeless body- the point is her death had a huge impact on him and why shouldn't it? He just failed her when he was so near to her. He had every reason to feel the blame, though the blame wasn't his. How is that in any way romantic? I see a lot of Clerith arguments are: Cloud holding Tifa is NOT romantic! She's passed out!
And yet when Cloud holds a dead Aerith it is true love? I don't understand.
Back to back would be facing away, though... And yes I did see the eyes. ;P That's why I said "besides the hand reach scene" because he saw her face there. Anyway, why should he not try seeing her? It doesn't prove anything romantic at all. xD Uh, I always refer to ACC now usually since it's the newer version. XD

We'll refer to ACC now then.
He didn't have to say all those lines when Aerith died. Zack died and he didn't do the same. Then there's the part where I said that he held her body close to his. And with Sephy just behind him, very able to strike his sword right through him, he still does it. He even said he didn't care about Sephy's plan anymore. Those make the scene romantic for me.
As for Cloud holding Tifa, he did the same to Kadaj... OMG! Cloud loves Kadaj! :]
Uhm... I was talking about what emotions he had in his eyes. And the hand reach scene, seemed like he took his time grabbing Aerith's hand. :]
How is it not romantic? Half the time Cloud was talking to a person, especially Tifa, he was facing away. But when Aerith talks to him, he tries looking at her.
Wait a minute. So, all those times he wasn't facing Tifa while they were talking, those aren't romantic too.

Before ACC the theme was water yeah, but they changed it to anxious heart. I personally find that romantic and shows the focus is on Cloud and Tifa. The droplet and the song are related to Aerith, yes. It's Aerith who heals Cloud and Tifa. Doesn't negate the Cloud and Tifa moment though.

I thought Anxious heart was used elsewhere? So it wasn't really C/T's own themed music. Now let's go on into the scene being romantic. Yeah, take out the droplet scene, the flowers, and the previous music, it can be romantic. The wolf however... Idk if I would consider it there because Aerith was present, or that guilt is eating at Cloud again because of the promise he failed to keep yet again... Although he did come, he was still late...
It kinda does. The setting very much made the scene show Aerith's presence-what with all the flowers, the lighting, the droplet scene. Being it a C/T moment, SE made sure viewers *still* see Aerith's presence. Way to go SE-spoil the C/T mood.

Well.. can we speak about the present? O_o

Sure.

Attracted and love - big difference.

Can't that attraction develop into something more? It wasn't like that was their only meeting.

Cloud and Aerith first met on the street. Zack and Aerith first met in the church. Why does it matter if she was selling flowers or not? It's Zack who tells her she should start selling them and they sell them together for awhile.

I said that in response to this:

Actually Cloud and Aerith's first meeting was when she sold a flower to him on the street.
Zack and Aerith had the same thing

It seemed like you were saying they had the same meeting when they didn't. Guess I misunderstood. Sorry.

Anyway...
Yes that did happen. But it's all in the past now. Aerith's moved on from that time of her life.

It doesn't even say Cloud and Aerith's destiny, it simply says the wheels of Aerith's destiny begin turning.

Showing Cloud and Aerith do make it seem so.

Speaking of something SE never confirmed... And what other quotes did I miss for Clerith, speaking ONLY of the first time they met?

MotP made it clear.. Oh yeah, people don't see MotP as a canon of SE.
There's a difference if you look at it. Zerith was confirmed to be true flat out.

Ryu, I will get back to you. But as of the moment, I can't. Sorry. It's just that replying to you takes 2 hours for me. LOL.