Please don't misinterpret that as *completely* ignoring Cloud's grief. I was pointing out the difference in the scene, not the grief. I was pointing out why I thought that Cloud holding Aerith's lifeless body plus his lines made it romantic.
If you interpreted that as me *completely* ignoring things, then that's your interpretation and not mine.
Ok, I think I get what you're
trying to say CR. But what others are trying to do is make a counter-point to your statements. People are trying to show you that Cloud's grief at the loss of Zack, and the grief showcased by others such as Tifa and Yuffie at Aerith's death are just as potent and heart-rending. That there is no reason to consider it romantic just because it was different.
He asked the others not to approach them. Why did he do that?
Forgive me, I don't recall Cloud asking everyone else not to approach at Aerith's death. In fact, depending on who is in the party at that point, they DO approach. Tifa even touches Aerith before she runs off crying, hands over eyes bawling as far as I can tell from the primitive models. I always thought she was smoothing her bangs back out of her face myself, but cradling her face is just as likely.
Yuffie's cries? Tifa cradled Aerith's face? When? This is the first time I've seen that in an argument.
This is why you have to watch more than one version of the scenes. Yuffie flat drops to her knees bawling, and I described Tifa's reaction above. Their grief is potent, and in Yuffie's case damn near instantaneous. No pause, she goes from Yuffie's usual over-confident and brash posture to on her knees weeping her eyes out.
I was talking about you claiming that I'm *completely* ignoring things when I'm not. It's the one thing I hate about debates.
You haven't really been doing anything to refute those points though. To some that seems like you're ignoring them.
Do I look like I'm taking it seriously? HAHA!
When you comment on your tolerance level as a warning it seems serious, yeah. Considering how you talked to Vendel it also comes across as a bit hypocritical, which is one of my pet peeves. I'd say your advice to Vendel was good, and you should take your own advice on this one. No reason a silly LTD discussion should push your tolerance levels my friend.
But they don't look right at each other's eyes, either Cloud was facing away of Tifa was. Which is why I find Cloud trying to take a look at Aerith's face even as they were back to back romantic. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not saying they should be lovey dovey when they're having a rough patch.
As for looking someone in the eyes, there are multiple reasons why people do it and multiple reasons not to do it. For instance, I do not like to look people straight in the eye when I am hurting or angry. The eyes are the window to the soul, people see what's going on inside when you look them in the eye. So you're right in a way, eye contact does equate to more sincere communication. But sometimes, especially during a rough patch, it can be very hard to establish that connection for fear of hurting the other person.
too much shyness cause too much misunderstandings, IMO, but it doesn't neglect a relationship.
Agreed 100%. Shyness =/= neglect, but it CAN cause misunderstandings.
No. We were talking about how romantic it was that Cloud tried to look at Aerith during the flowerfield scene.
You are talking about how romantic that is dear.
We're talking about how unsupported that claim is and putting up alternate reasons he'd have tried to look at her right then. Shock at her suggestion being my personal interpretation.
And so far you've been unable to support that belief.
Uhm... excuse me, but like I said, we were establishing how the flower field scene could be romantic.
And it's not only that which can say Cloud and Aerith has romance in it.
You've been trying to establish that. I can see how it
could have been romantic, but I do not see that it is at all. Its very touching, for the viewers/players/fans as well as Cloud no doubt, but not romantic. And how else can Cloud/Aerith be shown to be romantic? I'm still waiting to hear about that.
Meh, you're not alone.
Most assuredly not, I took a long break from the LTD and aside from being less wacky and random its pretty much identical to what I remember. Except that you're more fun to discuss with than some folks I've talked to CR.
Where is directly stated that Cloud did look up for Aerith because of guilt and surprise?
Where is it directly stated that it is romance? It works both ways, get to supporting your claim that it is romance if you expect us to take that as factual evidence.
And we all know it's best to NOT inform your family about a violent gang who tried to kick your butt because they will be safer this way...
When your family includes a superhumanly strong and fast martial arts master who will probably want to step in and fight the same guys who kicked your own super-strong/fast swordsman ass during a running motorcycle battle, then yeah it actually might
be safer to leave them out of it. But that's not what was being said, the exact line you were responding to was "He's trying to protect them from his failure." As in his failure to keep himself safe from Geostigma and his apparently inevitable and painful death. They're already dealing with Denzel's condition, he doesn't think they need his added on. Even when talking to Marlene towards the end he maintains that his pain is NOTHING compared to Denzel's. And that's leaving out his multitude of other guilt and shame related reasons for keeping his family in the dark.
No it doesn't, it sounds ridiculous. Which was the entire point. If you look up over your head you might see it.
Marlene likes flowers too and tramples off them. Besides, who said that flowers where most precious to Cloud?
Marlene does not trample the flowers. She stops respectfully at the edge of the flower-bed and gently tends to them while humming to herself while she waits for Cloud. She almost looks like a mini-Aerith in that scene in fact. As far as Cloud goes, no one said they were most precious to him that I know of. We've been pointing out that if they ARE an important symbol of Aerith as is so often claimed, his trampling them underfoot without so much as a notice to get to Tifa is a clear show of how much she means to him.
Also, Cloud is barely there; how would he raise Marlene if he isn't present most time at all?
Did you even read CoT? I don't wanna sound cruel or mean here, I'm honestly asking. Since there are a number of passages therein describing Cloud taking fewer deliveries and coming home earlier specifically to make sure he has time for the kids. Its only when his grief and guilt get the best of him that he distances himself from Tifa and the kids. You can argue that was the wrong way to respond if you like, I have in the past myself, but it does not in any way mean he was never present/barely there for Marlene and Denzel.
And besides, what about Barret? I guess he won't go back to his daughter once he finished his job?
Barret seems to think Marlene is better off with Cloud and Tifa to me, with Denzel as a brother. I personally assume he'll be around plenty, but finding just one oil field is hardly enough for the entire planet. EVERYONE needs to replace Mako Energy. I doubt he's gonna be "finished" with this job for a good long while.
Tell me where it's stated that he acts like a father to Marlene.
Case of Tifa has direct quotes stating Cloud acts like a young father to both of the children. Multiple quotes from other sources describe him as being the equivalent of the father in their small family.
Since we all know that Tifa isn't from time to time telling herself things that aren't true...?
To parrot your own lines back at you: When/where was that stated? When has Tifa ever been shown to lie to herself?
Since Cloud also fakes a smile, it's questionable if this was meant to be true, too.
And what exactly makes you believe his smile there was fake? I agree that if it
was a fake smile it would put the agreement that Aerith sent Denzel to the family as a whole rather than just to Cloud in a questionable light. But the smile was not fake, if anything it was merely hesitant as Cloud mulled over the idea to himself and then found he approved and agreed.
However, he is called her father though.
Barret is her father, he has been ever since Corel was destroyed by Shinra. Kids can have more than one father you know. My kid has three different father figures. She doesn't live with me and someone else is raising her. Does that change my status as her dad? Not in the least.
Tifa raises them alone since Cloud is barely present.
I already responded to the "barely present" nonsense above. Scroll up to see how invalid this point is. Yes Tifa does a lot of the work alone during the time Cloud is distant from them, but that is a finite portion of their relationship.
Indeed - friends who are like family.
This claim has already been debunked. Tifa does indeed see her friends as family. But not a direct part of THE family, which consists of just four people: Tifa, Cloud, Marlene, and Denzel. I cba to find the exact post with the exact quotes (and there were more than one) that showed this, but feel free to roll back through the thread and find them, or ask for them to be reposted by the OP.
Fact is, we do not know why. We don't even know who put it on the desk.
But we can make reasonable deductions. It is Cloud's business, and his office. We can reasonably presume he chose the few decorations in there for himself. If Tifa had been the one to decorate his office I would assume it would be at least a BIT less Spartan in there. So, working on that deduction, why would Cloud bother to keep that photo around unless its because he's fond of his family?
So is there a quote saying "Tifa could never place a family phot on the desk because that would be out of character for her"?
See my above paragraph.
I don't get the "attacks Cloud like a Smiler"-part, I'm sorry.
She shows up in the credits while Cloud is riding on his bike.
Slimer, not Smiler. Its a Ghost Buster's joke based on the ghost of a fat, slimy glutton who "slimes" people with his disgusting ectoplasmic body
And no, she showed up in the credits back in AC, and there is no reason she shouldn't. She was vital to the plot and everyone, fans and party alike, misses her. But she was removed from ACC, so the credits focus soley on Cloud.
His original name is Zacks.
I like 'Zacks' more than 'Zack'.
Is this really something we need to debate? We can all tell who she was referring to after all, so it doesn't particularly matter. Sure it irks me too a bit, but so long as I can tell who she means fuck it, let her add an S to the end of the sentence.
I'm not going to call him something different because the English translators weren't able to translate properly.
Dude, they called him "Zack" because that's a common name among English speakers. With an S added, it looks goddamn ridiculous to a large number of Westerners. Call him Zacks if you must, but don't insult one of the few sensible decisions made for the translation.
On a similar note, I see you don't insist on calling Cloud by the name "Cloudo" or "Cloudu" or however that pronunciation would be spelled
Tell that to Yuna and Edward.
I can't speak for Edward, but Tidus
came back to life. He wasn't on the Farplane anymore, he wasn't
dead. Aerith, she is still lifestream goo.
I don't care about your opinions of the Gongaga scene since it doesn't matter anyway if Aerith states that she loves Cloud in Case of Lifestream.
Working under the assumption that it is possible to love more than one person, it can still matter. The Gongaga scene isn't as important as some things, but it DOES have a place in this discussion.
Ahh, this discussion again.
Yes, this discussion again. Because you're not getting the point, willfully or not.
"Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters."
"Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. "
"This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. "
"Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him."
"Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. "
Case Closed.
Aerith has become aware of the fact that Cloud is not himself. She is aware that there is something wrong with him. this =/= her actually knowing the real him. Even if she has seen through to his essence, that doesn't mean she understands him and knows what he's really like. She just knows he is acting contrary to how he should. Tifa knows as much before Cloud even meets Aerith, though she questions her own sanity for a time in relation to such. And a growing affection for Cloud can occur as she learns he is NOT just a copy of Zack without her knowing what's up with him.
Case closed indeed
So standing next to a person is equalling a romantic affection? ...Are you serious...?
It has as much weight as "Cloud tried to look at Aerith OMG SO ROMANTIC!" The fact remains, Aerith leaves with Zack. Maybe its romantic, maybe its not, but either way they returned to the Planet where the dead belong.
Also, where is it said that she wished to see him more than anything after the events of FFVII?
Where is it said that Cloud's greatest wish is to see Aerith again after the events of
anything? At least the Zerith quote has a basis in CC. Seriously, I recommend once again you stop trying to tear down the "competiting" pairings and try to support your own. And not just because that's just better debate procedure, but because you're kinda bad at tearing down.
If Aerith tries to see him again, then she tries to reunite with him.
Seeing =/= permanent reunion. Whereas we're straight up
told that Cloud and Tifa are back together after AC/C. You're inferring, we have actual quotes backing our conclusion up.
I wonder why she never faces him.
Also, do you have a quote for that? Or some arguments why she "tries to stop Sephy" without even mentioning him once? Or why she did always talk about CLOUD instead of SEPHY?
You quoted CoLSW earlier. That means you should already know that she TRIED to face Sephiroth directly. And that he sent her packing with a flea in her ear for her trouble. Up until Cloud's victory, assisting and speaking to Cloud is all she
could do.
Are you really sure you watched the movie? Talking to Cloud in the Forgotten City, healing their wounds, helping him defeat Bahamut, messaging his mobile phone, healing his geostigma, healing his remaining wounds, saying encouraging words to him and watching him riding his motorcycle - no, she doesn't even think about Cloud.
Are you sure you did? Sure she thinks about Cloud. She's integral to him recovering from his guilt, she's vital to him defeating Kadaj and Sephiroth. She spends most of her time on screen trying to get Cloud to stop dragging his guilt and shame around. Exactly what Tifa tries to do, I might add. And since even in the AC's credits Cloud and Aerith are never on screen at the same time there is no telling that she is watching him ride Fenrir around and not just tending flowers. She IS still a flower girl from the slums at heart I am sure. But either way it makes little difference, she is not in the ACC credits whatsoever.
And I would like to know how you depict Aerith. First saying this, then that, then again this, and again that?
I haven't seen Aerith depicted all willy-nilly by anyone in this thread in a good long while. Even when such things were regularly done, it was done in jest in lieu of actual debate. What are you talking about exactly?
It's that thing that has actually happened. Since Aerith stated that she loves Cloud in an official novel.
Aerith loving Cloud =/= Cloud loving Aerith over Tifa. That's half a pairing at best. And Aerith loving Cloud also =/= Aerith not loving Zack. No matter how much some people wish it did.
What? I was sure you meant the Forgotten City since you basically said Cloud avoids the church.
I'm only going to touch on this lightly since I do not remember the context in which this was mentioned, but its pretty clear Cloud does not avoid the church. He found Denzel there after all. The Forgotten Capital, on the other hand, is where he delivered flowers for Elmyra just before his depression starts kicking in again in CoT. That seems likely to have made him avoid going back to me.
NO U
Seriously how do you ask this with a straight face when people keep asking your side to support your position with factual evidence rather than assumptions and interpretations?
As for evidence, Cloud never knew Angeal. As far as he's concerned the Buster Sword is Zack's, the symbol of his dreams and honor. Hence Zack saying (paraphrased) "My honor, my dreams... they're yours now..." on his death-bed.
Good. Then why are you asking for more again?
But that wasn't what I asked for. I know that Denzel sees Cloud like a father, but I want to see a quote where it's stated that Cloud feels the same about any of the kids.
Ahhhh I see. So Cloud making time to spend with the kids, even shortening his work hours just for that, and teaching them, and all around ACTING like a father isn't enough for you? Then I doubt anything will be.
He was already mentioned to still be her father in the novel, so don't worry.
See above within this post. You can have more than one father, and be part of more than one family.
I'm sure he would have done this with any of his friends, with maybe a few things different.
Thank you! Yes, Cloud would have reacted much the same with any of his friends if Sephiroth had skewered them, with some minimal changes to make his words about them instead of her. Glad to finally see some agreement on that one. IE yes, it was special that he reacted as he did, but no more special or romantic than it would have been if Barret had taken the Masamune in the back instead (as he almost did, according to creator interviews).
Indeed, I did them. I'll post them when I've got the time.
Sweet, not expecting any differences of consequence myself but it'll be nice to compare.
And I'm sure I didn't say that.
No one said you did, but we're not asking for interpretations and opinions. We're asking for factual support for your position, and we're getting interpretations instead.
I want to remember that you can only see things as canon that are already proven.
But by all evidence from the Ultimanias, OtWtaS, Creator Interviews, etc it HAS been proven canon.
Maybe I just want to have a good day enjoying myself writing here...? ;3
Tis a good enough reason for me. I don't understand how you can still hold your position regarding canon or the lack thereof, but I love debating for the pure sake of the debate myself.
So I don't post facts in my post?
I see mostly unsupported interpretations and opinions. Emotional reactions to how you saw things. I don't see anyone equaling the wealth of quotes Cloti has going for it. Look up Q's lengthy post a page or so back for a very well cited list of such.
Well, at least its worded a little different this time.
This would - if meant in a romantic way - contradict Aerith saying she loves Cloud.
How so? Really, people can have romantic feelings or even interest in more than a single person at once.
I didn't say anything about facts, I just said it could be a hint.
As for me, I won't take this seriously because he seems to repeat himself over and over again in certain times.
Ok, you said it
could be a hint, and never claimed it for fact. Got any actual facts to work with? And you repeat yourself plenty in this very thrad, should we refuse to take you seriously until you stop parroting yourself too?
I don't.
I would would answer this question in full, it would too likely develop into my own opinion, and that's something nobody (haha) cares for.
Has never stopped anyone in this debate before
But if I can be so bold, let me rephrase the question. Can you prove that Cloti is not comparable to other canon FF pairings?
Isn't this referring to the time where Barret is already gone?
The family was fully referenced before Barret left, actually. But even if it
is just after Barret is gone... so what? Its on Marlene's profile and thus canon either way.
Because it was originally his sword.
Yes, it was his sword once upon a time. Then Zack's, then Cloud's. It's clear that Cloud associates it with Zack and the symbolism he gave it. During the time he carried it (after getting his memory back that is) the only symbolism Cloud seems to put into it... is Zack. Angeal doesn't really come into it, so far as Cloud is concerned.
My point is: since you don't know what it shall represent, it could represent anything.
But we
do know what the Buster Sword has represented to each person who has held it. Angeal, Zack, then Cloud. We know their feelings about the sword. We can look them up with ease. Hell, Dead!Zack mentions what it symbolized to him during ACC! So no, it cannot represent ANYTHING.
Since Aerith did already tell that she loves Cloud, the hint towards Zerith should be out of discussion.
Same song, same dance, still silly and untrue.
Good point. However, in both quotes, it wasn't stated what kind of feelings are expressed/Cloud feels towards Aerith.
So both quotes are ambiguous.
Very much so. Ambiguous, and not nearly as concrete as what is said about Cloud's feelings regarding Tifa and vice versa.
However, FF love is, isn't it?
Is it? Would you refer to the repeated pains Tidus and Yuna went through before they got their happy ending as gentle or soft? Yes, they were tender with each other, but they were ripped apart inside repeatedly by the knowledge that Yuna had to die for them to win, then again when it became known that Tidus wasn't real and victory would instead kill
him. Similarly, Cloud and Tifa's relationship is rocky. Cloud has issues, Tifa has issues, and they do not always react perfectly to the pain and difficulty that causes. That sounds like love that is not always tender and soft to me.
Wait, aren't you then claiming that Edward couldn't have a relationship with Anna despite her being a ghost?
Different stories within the FF series have different rules. Ghosts rarely linger on Gaia, the Gi Tribe are shown to be an unusual occurrence and Sephiroth has to give up the majority of his sense of self to stay apart from the Lifestream. Even the Cetra seem to not stick around without a specific task to keep them apart from the Lifestream, and even then they lose themselves over time. Aerith would be no different, except it might be even harder for her since she's half vanilla-human.
Also, it was said that this crush was "in the past", so you don't know if he still lasts.
I no longer see this part in your post (working with two tabs open to keep everything straight, I am). Edits can play hell on a reply that way. So that in mind, I can't be totally sure of context, but assume you are talking about Cloud and Tifa as children. See Quex's post for a discussion of the "Dim love" translation. Either way, even if it were just a crush you don't know that it faded either. Your comment cuts both ways and proves absolutely nothing. And as far as I can tell, the quote in question does not comment on a "crush" and is much deeper than that. It involves dim feelings of love. As in love that has yet to grow to maturity, not a simple crush.
Wasn't it said that both heroines have feelings for Cloud? So - at least - it would be a one-sided romance story since we don't know how Cloud feels.
You are misunderstanding, and I suspect willfully so. The FFVII story and Compilation as a whole
do not revolve around romance. Romance is but a single facet of the overall story, not even close to the whole thing.
There is more still to reply to below, and I have been working on this post FOREVER. But, I see LOTS of repetition in the things I have yet to reply to, so I shall let this post stand for now. I'm sure anything I'm missing will be repeated yet again later, so I'll have opportunity to reply then
