The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
He didn't have to say all those lines when Aerith died. Zack died and he didn't do the same. Then there's the part where I said that he held her body close to his. And with Sephy just behind him, very able to strike his sword right through him, he still does it. He even said he didn't care about Sephy's plan anymore. Those make the scene romantic for me.

...Cloud was mako poisoned when Zack died, there was not much he could do. He did cry when Zack died though and he did scream. Zack also held him close. Are you saying Clack is canon then too? I'm all for that. BD Seriously though, it was a dramatic moment his friend just died. There's no proof that his feelings are of love. It's simply just grief. If your friend died would you hold them close and feel regret//remorse, especially if they died in the same way? I'd like to hope so.

As for Cloud holding Tifa, he did the same to Kadaj... OMG! Cloud loves Kadaj! :]

Different. Cloud didn't come rushing to Kadaj's side out of care or concern, they were enemies. He also didn't go "Kadaj! Who did this to you?!" Moreover, he did not lay close to Kadaj while themed music played.

Uhm... I was talking about what emotions he had in his eyes. And the hand reach scene, seemed like he took his time grabbing Aerith's hand. :]

Because Aerith's appearance is quite special. Not just to Cloud, but to us the viewers. No proof that it's romantic though. If so, please tell.

How is it not romantic? Half the time Cloud was talking to a person, especially Tifa, he was facing away. But when Aerith talks to him, he tries looking at her.

He was not facing away from Tifa. When he holds her, he looks at her. When he realizes Tifa's words and says: "I feel like I've lost weight. All that dilly dally" or whatever it is he says at that scene, she smiles at him and he looks at her. Hand reach scene - he looks at her. He looks at her at the end of AC, as well. When Tifa is sleeping, he stares down at her. He looks at Tifa... all the time. This argument that "Cloud loves Aerith because he looks at her" is a bit ridiculous imo.

Wait a minute. So, all those times he wasn't facing Tifa while they were talking, those aren't romantic too.

No, you are trying to make a point that looking at someone makes it romantic... I am saying it doesn't matter.
 

Vendel

Banned
It's because someone kept debating about why I saw Clerith the first time I watched AC! And boy, it was annoying.

I never doubted that you "saw clerith" when you watched AC. I just wanted to know what you saw. And your explanations painted a rather vivid picture of someone who is taking everything presented to them and going "How can I make this Clerith" or "How can I twist this so it isn't C/T".

Which is why I find it very hard to believe you were describing your first unbiased impressions of the movie.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
So how do you get the context without interpreting the facts?

I think you're using the word interpretation a wee bit differently. You have to interpret what you are given to understand the context of the facts, yes. But, that does not preclude there being a correct interpretation as to what happened and what did not. It's the "everything is open to interpretation and there is no canon" bit that I figure people are disliking. I don't put much (or any) stock in it myself.

We'll refer to ACC now then. :)

Tis for the best, since ACC is the updated, complete version.

He didn't have to say all those lines when Aerith died. Zack died and he didn't do the same. Then there's the part where I said that he held her body close to his. And with Sephy just behind him, very able to strike his sword right through him, he still does it. He even said he didn't care about Sephy's plan anymore. Those make the scene romantic for me. :)
As for Cloud holding Tifa, he did the same to Kadaj... OMG! Cloud loves Kadaj! :]

He didn't do the same or similar for Zack for several reasons. For one, he was JUST beginning to come out of a four year long catatonia. For another, the death of Zack was much less personal, all things considered. It was a bunch of faceless grunts that killed Zack, rather than Cloud's combination nemesis/bogeyman that is Sephiroth. And no one tried to control Cloud and make him kill Zack personally, nor was he Zack's bodyguard who had promised to protect him. There's simply no reason for it to be the same kind of scene.

His failure to care about Sephiroth's plans is anger and sadness talking in roughly equal measure I am sure, but I agree with what others have said. With little to no change, the lines Cloud speaks at that point work just as well if anyone else had gotten skewered instead of Aerith. Man was pissed, and didn't give a shit about Sephiroth's prattling right then. It may seem romantic to you, but it doesn't need to be so for Cloud's expressed feelings to be perfectly on track.

As for your comments about Cloud holding Kadaj while he died in a facetious effort to diminish the impact of Cloud holding Tifa after she got beaten up... if true, doesn't that cut in Aerith's direction as well? But clearly, it is not true. Cloud is aware by this point that what's happening is not, strictly speaking, Kadaj's fault. The remnant said it himself, he's just a puppet. Just like Cloud used to be, in fact. Of course Cloud would have sympathy for the guy as he lay dying, abandoned by Sephiroth once his body was too damaged to keep going. But look at the difference, with Kadaj, Cloud stood ready with sword in hand, prepared to keep cutting him till he quit coming. He only dropped everything and held him after Kadaj's wounds caught up with him. For Tifa, he rushed across the church and trampled Aerith's flowers. He picked her up and called her name twice, with increasing urgency, until she responded. And then he had a violent Geostigma attack, which is frequently linked to negative emotions. Emotions like guilt for leaving her and leading her to that beating, like worry for her condition when she passed back out, and like anger for what happened to her. Oh yeah, that had plenty of emotional impact. And it looks more romantic to me.

Uhm... I was talking about what emotions he had in his eyes. And the hand reach scene, seemed like he took his time grabbing Aerith's hand. :]
How is it not romantic? Half the time Cloud was talking to a person, especially Tifa, he was facing away. But when Aerith talks to him, he tries looking at her.

He looked shocked to see her during the hand lift scene. He did indeed seem to take his time grabbing her hand, but that looked like hesitation to me. Like he wasn't sure he could touch a dead person, perhaps. Even with her touching him earlier, that was in some odd mental place or in-between life and death while his body was still riding his bike. Or perhaps it was more of a sense that he should not be allowed to touch the one he failed to protect. Remember he is still testing that forgiveness thing at this point, it isn't till the wolf disappears that he lets it go for real. That would be how it's not romantic :monster: As for him trying to look at her during the first contact with her on the way to pick up the children, I still contend that that was more surprise than any desire to look at her. He's clearly shocked at the very idea that he needs to forgive himself, rather than be forgiven by her.

Wait a minute. So, all those times he wasn't facing Tifa while they were talking, those aren't romantic too.
*sigh* You're better than this. I've seen it in your other posts. Cloud isn't looking at Tifa at that point because he's ashamed that he ran away, and worried that even if he stops running he'll just fail again. Once he starts getting over that guilt and worry, he has no problem looking at her. And when he finally smiles just before the credits, he's smiling at her.

TL;DR for this paragraph: They had problems, they got over it.

I thought Anxious heart was used elsewhere? So it wasn't really C/T's own themed music. Now let's go on into the scene being romantic. Yeah, take out the droplet scene, the flowers, and the previous music, it can be romantic.

Anxious Heart is the music used in Nibelheim, Cloud and Tifa's hometown. It's very much a theme the two of them share. And gee, that's an odd name for the track so heavily associated with the two of them isn't it? Anxious Heart... I wonder what that could mean :awesomonster:

The wolf however... Idk if I would consider it there because Aerith was present, or that guilt is eating at Cloud again because of the promise he failed to keep yet again... Although he did come, he was still late...

I actually sort of agree with this, as per my reasoning for why Cloud has such a violent Geostigma attack at that point. He's got even more than just Aerith and Zack's deaths to be guilty about right then, thus its no wonder the wolf appears.

It kinda does. The setting very much made the scene show Aerith's presence-what with all the flowers, the lighting, the droplet scene. Being it a C/T moment, SE made sure viewers *still* see Aerith's presence. Way to go SE-spoil the C/T mood.

Aerith's presence is not really confirmed for that scene, though I tend to assume she was paying attention and trying to help in some way there. It could just as easily be foreshadowing of the lifestream enriched water under the flower bed, though, so I take it with a grain of salt. As for the flowers, they're in Aerith's old church. Of course there are flowers there, not every flower you see is "OMG AERITH IS HERE AND IT IS OH SO IMPORTANT AND ROMANTIC!" Of course, as I said I tend to believe Aerith is there and trying to assist them in that scene. But that doesn't mean she's getting in the way of CXT. She's still important to the story, we SHOULD see her presence. It doesn't mean she's a rival for Cloud's affections at that point.

Can't that attraction develop into something more? It wasn't like that was their only meeting. :)

Of course attraction can develop into something more. That's how love usually works. I know I was attracted to my beloved before I loved her, tis the normal progression of things. But just because something can happen doesn't mean it did.

Yes that did happen. But it's all in the past now. Aerith's moved on from that time of her life.

Oooor she's lying to herself about being over Zack when she says that, as many real people would in such circumstances. Most everything I've seen since CC came out has supported the idea that she was never really over Zack, and just comforting herself as best she could with her claims that he probably just found another girl or something. Now, I'm not saying she didn't love Cloud. I'm sure she did, to one extent or another. But her feelings for Cloud do not invalidate the possibility of continuing feelings for Zack, with whom she has been reunited in death. Let's face it, we don't know how much effort she had to go to to contact Cloud and the kids in AC/C, but we can pretty easily guess that its easier to stay in touch with Zack since their mutual place is in the lifestream now.

Showing Cloud and Aerith do make it seem so.

Well, they kinda have to show them both for that if meeting Cloud is what kicked off her destiny as a Cetra. If he's the catalyst for that, then he needs to be shown. Simple enough.

MotP made it clear.. Oh yeah, people don't see MotP as a canon of SE.

Nope, much as some folks would like it to be, it really doesn't line up very well. I've even participated jokingly in some discussions that threw out some fanwank to justify its inclusion but no, it doesn't fit right and was never a full part of the Compilation.

Whew, making a reply in here does take a wee bit doesn't it? And I didn't even address every single paragraph you posted no less. Ahhh well, its nice to be discussing in here again :joy:
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Hey Chantara, I know you're not speaking to me at present but I gotta weigh in here. You still seem to be ignoring the point being made, that being that just because there are optional variations on the Highwind scene does not preclude there being a canon version. That, being as how there can in fact be a canon outcome despite the divergence available in the game, the content of page 232 does not invalidate the point made in the article.

This is why I HATE bringing in the Highwind Scene to these debates. It goes around in circles just like this. It's been at least 10 pages of the same thing.

I think people aren't listening to each other or something.

Most people's points: Just because there's more than one version of a scene, doesn't mean one of those versions isn't canon.
Chantara's point: If a scene has more than one version, there might not be a canon version.

Both of these are valid points which are 100% true.

You're all right, congratulations :monster:

Chantara isn't denying that some optional scenes have canon versions just like you guys aren't denying that some scenes have no canon versions. No one is missing any points here.

Instead of going back and forth like this for 10 pages or w/e it's been, try to prove your version happened.

Failing that, at least talk about when a scene becomes canon and what criteria it should have.


That is all. :awesome:
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Some stuff that no longer exactly matches what I had quoted because all parties rethought the tone in which they were presenting their points :monster: Just scroll up one space if you really wanna see what she said :muhaha:

Ok. I'll bite here, Q. We've been going around in circles, there is no denying that. Now, many many quotes have been thrown out to show that either A.) HA is canon or B.) It doesn't freakin' matter because either way mutual feelings were shared and they lead to Cloud and Tifa living and raising kids together. We have made many a post utilizing logical reasoning based around these simple and easy to grasp facts to showcase these conclusions.

So, before you go into a caps frenzy and face hoof at us, perhaps you'd care to share with the group exactly what YOU would do differently? Or maybe you have an idea of what else one is supposed to do, after having exhausted those earlier stated quotes, facts, and reason and then further tried to change the topic of debate to someone actually attempting to validate the "Clerith perspective" and ending up right back on the attempt to tear down our reasoning? What, exactly, would YOU have us do?

Edit: I would edit my own posts to be less aggressive too, but... meh. Effort. I made an edit to apologize for my tone, hopefully no one will be confused by the discrepancy.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Yes some of you have been posting quotes and other stuff, and that's basically what I want. People to prove their version of events happened. But for some reason all that's getting said over and over is this "This scene has multiple outcomes" and "So what?" stuff. I want people to move on from the Highwind Scene and talk about pretty much anything else.

I mean she did post an essay that has the Clerith POV on it, maybe talk about that? Post a Cloti one?... do something like that. Sorry I just woke up from a nap and I'm cranky and I'm just bored reading about the highwind scene for the 100th time :catfight:

(and even when I haven't woke up from a nap I'm cranky and bitchy and want things my way :awesome:)

EDIT II:
BTW those earlier quotes have NOT been exhausted. In fact, I've hardly seen any quotes posted at all. I've seen a mention of quotes, but those are just the tip of the iceburg. ... maybe I should just get my quote deposit site back up so people can just use it like that.

BTW didn't mean to facehoof you personally, just facehoofing at the fact that it's going around in a circle.

EDIT:
Different. Cloud didn't come rushing to Kadaj's side out of care or concern, they were enemies. He also didn't go "Kadaj! Who did this to you?!" Moreover, he did not lay close to Kadaj while themed music played.
Well I hope not, he was the one who did it :monster:
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Well, if you'll look at the post above your caps-fest, you'll see quite a few lines of text that are by and large totally unconnected to the Highwind. We're trying to move past that, last I looked. Gods know I get pretty tired of repeating myself and others to try and showcase the same point (HA is canon or it doesn't matter one way or another), but if it keeps getting argued the options are to respond or ignore it. On the Cloti side of the debate we at least have quotes from creator interviews and Ultimanias to back out position, but there are only so many of those to use. Of course it gets repetitive. The distinguished competition can only prattle off remixes of the same "But there's two versions!" again and again, and yet I am sure they must get bored of it too eventually.

As for the essays, didn't Ryu say something about, y'know, not doing that? It is late, so I might be confusing exactly what was said or even who said it, but I seem to recall that happening at some point in the recentish past. So if I remember rightly that's pretty much out.

And I thank you for using my post, out of all those available, as your sole example for your rant btw. Its not as if I have a post shortly after that in the thread directed at CR that doesn't mention the Highwind scene even once. The CR post I was responding to is also unconnected to the Highwind. Same for Tiff's last post I believe. Vendel's post was short, but again no Highwind to be found. I have plenty of reason to be cranky tonight myself you know, both because my girl wound up in the hospital the other night and for some bullshit that happened tonight, which may be why I am responding the way I am to your caps raging and face hoofing at ME specifically as well as everyone else. I mean, I'm just responding to the argument other folks insist on continuing when they utterly fail to meet any burden of proof. And look, the moment other things to respond to come up, I respond to THAT instead.

Edit: Wow, that came off a wee bit more aggressive and preachy than I originally intended. Like I said, I have some frustrations working through me too atm. Hope you didn't take that too personally Q, and I'm sorry for the tone either way.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Well, if you'll look at the post above your caps-fest, you'll see quite a few lines of text that are by and large totally unconnected to the Highwind. We're trying to move past that, last I looked. Gods know I get pretty tired of repeating myself and others to try and showcase the same point (HA is canon or it doesn't matter one way or another), but if it keeps getting argued the options are to respond or ignore it. On the Cloti side of the debate we at least have quotes from creator interviews and Ultimanias to back out position, but there are only so many of those to use. Of course it gets repetitive. The distinguished competition can only prattle off remixes of the same "But there's two versions!" again and again, and yet I am sure they must get bored of it too eventually.
The problem is your post started off saying she's missing the point, which she isn't. She understands your point completely, and as I said you both have valid points. But neither of the groups are seeing the others as having valid points and it's just... well yeah you get it.

As for the essays, didn't Ryu say something about, y'know, not doing that? It is late, so I might be confusing exactly what was said or even who said it, but I seem to recall that happening at some point in the recentish past. So if I remember rightly that's pretty much out.
..

did he? He was the one who told her to make a case for Clerith. She already had one so she linked to it.. .I guess I figured that'd be okay. But if he said it's not allowed then, I guess I'm not sure what else there is to do.

And I thank you for using my post, out of all those available, as your sole example for your rant btw. Its not as if I have a post shortly after that in the thread directed at CR that doesn't mention the Highwind scene even once. The CR post I was responding to is also unconnected to the Highwind. Same for Tiff's last post I believe. Vendel's post was short, but again no Highwind to be found.
Except it wasn't at you, it was at everyone going around in circles as I said. You'll notice that aside from quoting you, as it was the most recent and that's why I used it, I didn't mention you specifically.

Also I didn't say EVERYONE was talking about the only highwind scene. My point is what's going on every time it comes up is we get stuck on this optional stuff... as I've said, going around in circles. I want... well people to branch out instead of talking about this optional stuff again and again and again.

I have plenty of reason to be cranky tonight myself you know, both because my girl wound up in the hospital the other night and for some bullshit that happened tonight, which may be why I am responding the way I am to your caps raging and face hoofing at ME specifically as well as everyone else. I mean, I'm just responding to the argument other folks insist on continuing when they utterly fail to meet any burden of proof. And look, the moment other things to respond to come up, I respond to THAT instead.
Well I'm sorry your GF is in the hospital, as I said that sucks and I hope she gets better. :glomp:

But don't take what I said as a personal attack against YOU. It's an attack against the arguments that keep getting repeated. And I'm well aware of WHY these things are getting repeated, your post just was the most recent so I used it. In fact, I was tempted to put a bunch of quotes in it, but I didn't think it'd be an issue tbh. You'll notice the first thing I said to Chantara was "Prove the low affection version could happen.".. and, well she posted an essay, but I guess I'd like to see a little more than just that.


So EG, lemme ask you then. What, to you, makes the high affection scene canon? I'd like to hear this from you, and from everyone really. Or did you post that already? Sorry if you did I missed it so can you show me, please?

EDIT:
Edit: Wow, that came off a wee bit more aggressive and preachy than I originally intended. Like I said, I have some frustrations working through me too atm. Hope you didn't take that too personally Q, and I'm sorry for the tone either way.
No, don't apologize, it was my fault. I should be more careful about how I word things and the caps probably made it sound angrier than I meant it to. Yeah looking back on it, not the best way to deal with things D: I sound like a total bitch :awesome:


Anyway, don't worry about it, let's just forget I was being a spoiled brat... again :monster:
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Fair enough on all counts. My post was the most recent, and we do end up debating the same three points back and forth in a big ol' circle-jerk of non-progress on the HW issue. As stated, I'm sure it frustrates everyone. And for anyone worrying, my lady isn't actually in the hospital, she just had to have an ER visit. Still, some fear and stress lingers concerning it. I'll try to keep that out of my tone and out of the LTD from here on in.

Now, to answer your questions now that I am centered properly and not taking everything too personally for anyone's good. I feel the HA version of the Highwind scene is canon (or that it doesn't matter) for the same reasons various folks such as Ryu, Tres, and others have repeated ad infinitum in this thread. The Ultimanias speak of Cloud and Tifa confirming their feelings for each other under the Highwind. Feelings that match. When creator interviews are referenced, they invariably match those same criteria, matching feelings confirmed (I'm leaving the "without words" bit out of the equation for now so we don't open a whole other can of worms too early). Within the Ultimania, the notation for the Highwind scene that contains the quote that's been so often thrown out here is on a page entitled "For the One I Love" which deals entirely with romance, so even without the creator interviews we can clearly see that either A.) the HA version must be canon for this to work or B.) the deviation allows for these same feelings to be confirmed despite its supposedly apathetic and brief nature. The interviews just point us even more firmly in the right direction.

So that's my two cents. Its the same two cents that's been passed around repeatedly for a goodly portion of this incarnation of the LTD, but there you have it.

Now, if someone wants to dispute that, they're welcome to. But can we please have something that you actually believe can bypass what amounts to Word of God statements made through the guidebooks and interviews, rather than more rehashing than what I just did? I know some folks here feel that the presence of two scenes COULD indicate that neither is canon. What proof do you have, surpassing what I just laid out and anything else this side of the debate has come out with, that that is actually the case?

And furthermore, what are your thoughts Quex? I'm sure you've already made them clear, as many others had in this very thread. But I cba to go through this whole thing again looking for it. :monster:
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I never really finished this but it's a good start:


The CloTi Perspective:
Cloud and Tifa are left alone at the Highwind. ... no wait I'm going to start BEFORE that, because I think that's when Cloti really starts.

The real story of Cloti begins during the Lifestream event. It is in that moment when Tifa literally walks through Cloud's mind and sees the window to his past and true self. Many of Cloud's old memories and actions revolve around Tifa herself. In fact, the three most important memories that end up bringing Cloud back together are about himself and Tifa. The first memory is that Cloud would get into fights constantly because he was angry at himself for not being able to protect Tifa from falling from Mt Nibel. The second memory is the night Cloud made the Promise to Tifa to come to help her if she ever needed it. This was significant to Cloud because Tifa had been called out to the water tower before by many other boys, but always turned them down. Cloud was the one she paid attention to which shows that even at the time, Tifa was taking an interest him even without knowing him that well. Cloud also had feelings for Tifa, but because he was young, they hadn't the time grow yet. This is IMO, why they were called "dim" or "slight" feelings, because his feelings changed to that of love overtime as he grew.

(SOURCE: Cloud's Crisis Core Ultimania Profile "Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he dimly fell in love with, and made a promise to protect her")

The promise also means much to Cloud, for it is forever etched in his mind/memory.

(SOURCE: Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile. "A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory."

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind.")


Cloud also decided to join SOLDIER because he wanted someone to notice him, and the one person he singles out, is once again, Tifa.

(SOURCE: FFVII "Cloud: If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......").

The third and final memory is of when Cloud defeated Sephiroth and came to Tifa's rescue even though he was a tad late. All of these memories show just how important Tifa is to Cloud. Even the young Cloud says to Tifa that she should tell the adult Cloud about how she was looking for information about him in the newspaper when he left. The younger Cloud knows the adult Cloud cares about Tifa a great deal and knows this will make him happy because his feeling have changed from slight feelings to that of love.

(SOURCE: FFVII:
Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."

*Young Cloud looks down.*

"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

*Tifa nods* )


It is then Tifa realizes just how important she is to Cloud and that those feelings he had when he was a kid have grown to love, and we know she still carries her feelings for him from when she was younger.

THIS is what Tifa and Cloud talked about under the Highwind. When they were left alone (left alone as in no one watched them even if they did have sex... )

(SOURCE: U20: As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."),

they realized how important they were to one another. They realized they loved one another and wanted to be by each other's side. They also related their feelings to each other without using words, which would indicate some form of romancing going on.

(SOURCE(s): "FFVIIUO, pg. 15: Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 198: When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

"CCU, pg. 33: She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

"FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition: Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary: And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." )

"U20 Scenario, pg. 394 VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match

"U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232: Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

"FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game"

"U20 Scenario, pg. 199: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book)


Later on, on the Highwind, Cloud and Tifa get teased momentarily. None of the friends actually saw what happened, but Tifa is very embarrassed obviously concerned about what they might have seen which furthur implies that something romantic happened. If not, Tifa is embarrassed for no reason at all. Cloud puts his hand behind his head as he's also embarrassed but not as much as Tifa. That moment is quickly forgotten as the story moves on.

After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud is lead back to his consciousness by Aerith, and is awakened just in time to save Tifa as she nearly falls to her death. Having seen Aerith's hand moments ago, Cloud speaks about the promised land, saying that he thinks he can find his fallen friend there. He is already looking for forgiveness from the one that he wronged and wishes to meet her again someday to be forgiven. Tifa agrees with Cloud and expresses an interest to see her fallen comrade as well.

At the start of CoT, Cloud smiles as Tifa stands by his side. Cloud expresses, once again, that he wishes for forgiveness for his sins. He believes starting a new life and living it the best he can will lead him to his salvation. And with a smile, he tells Tifa he believe he can do this now, and not fail like he has in the past, because he has her with him and he is very content with this.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)


When Case of Tifa progresses, Cloud and Barret build 7th Heaven as their home, and Barret decides at one point to leave. He leaves Marlene and Tifa and Cloud's care and calls them a family. Cloud begins to live like he said he would, and he's very happy with his new life. He even starts his own business and begins a delivery service. It is when this happens that things begin to change. Cloud starts to become distant and Tifa and Marlene notice this. This is because of the feelings of guilt he begins to feel. He had to deliver flowers to the Forgotten City which reminded him of how badly he failed Aerith. He begins to feel that because he could not protect his friends and those important to him, that he doesn't deserve this wonderful family he has. He starts to feel worthless and grows more and more distant as time goes on.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary: "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"

Nomura in Distance: "The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes.")


Because he grows so distant, Tifa becomes concerned and starts to wonder if their love for one another is enough to get through the crisis they are dealing with. She even becomes angry with Cloud because of his behavior toward her and Marlene and snaps at him a time or two. They are a couple in peril and many couples go through similar things like this. She asks Cloud one night if he loves her and he awakens perplexed for a moment. Afraid of the answer, she changes the question to ask if he loves Marlene to which he says, "Yes I just don't know how to approach her sometimes." Tifa then asks if they'll be okay, but doesn't get a response.

At some point during all this, Cloud begins visiting Aerith's church searching for salvation. One day when he's there he runs across Denzel, a young boy with Geostigma. He decides to bring Denzel back to join his family and Tifa agrees. They start to raise Denzel along with Marlene and their family life starts to get back to normal.

(SOURCE Case of Tifa: Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.)

One night Cloud tells Tifa that he feels Aerith brought Denzel to him and confesses to visiting the church. Tifa, not wanting Cloud to suffer alone, tells him that she'll go with him next time, and reaffirms his belief about Denzel, but adds that she believes Aerith brought Denzel to their home and family. Cloud smiles at hearing this, knowing that he has people who care about him and want to help. Tifa and his family are always with him and this makes him happy.

Shortly afterwards, Cloud begins searching for a cure for Denzel to redeem himself for his past sins;

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”

Tifa nodded silently.

“But maybe we can save the lives who are in a crisis just now. Maybe even I can do it.”

“You mean Denzel?”

“Yeah.”)


however one day when he's out and about, he comes in contact with the disease. He feels that his one shot at redemption is completely blown and once again, he feels worthless. He thinks he doesn't deserve the friends and family he has, so he runs away to hide himself from his shame, and begins to live in Aerith's church possibly looking for another chance for salvation.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary Timeline: "[ ν ] – εуλ 0009

· Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family.

· Because he contracted Geostigma, Cloud left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church."

FFVII 10th Anniversary Cloud's Profile: "Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.")


As FFVII AC goes on, Aerith is finally able to speak to Cloud to tell him to move on and that she never blamed him for anything. Thanks to Aerith, Marlene and Tifa, Cloud is able to fight again, and rises up to defeat Sephiroth once again. He wakes up in the church, surrounded by his loved ones, finally free of his guilt. This is truly his promised land. A place where he can live among his friends, and family without guilt or insecurities. As Aerith leaves along with Zack, Cloud smiles and think to himself that he isn't alone. He isn't alone because he has his family and he knows they will be there for him and he doesn't have to suffer alone and that his family and friends will always be there for him.

--------------------

So as you can see, there is no Tifa treating Cloud like shit. There's no Cloud treating Tifa like a doormat. There's no Tifa being mean to Cloud or not believing in him and loving Zack instead. What we believe in is truly a beautiful love story. Two people who took an interest in one another when they were younger even though they really didn't know each other that well. Cloud asks Tifa to go to the watertower with him one night, and despite the fact that Tifa had been asked out by several boys, she didn't respond to them. Only Cloud. This is because they saw something in one another despite their differences and just knew there was something special in the other.

After that, before they get a chance to really share their feelings for one another, they are separated as Cloud heads off to join SOLDIER. He thinks about Tifa while he's there and she thinks about him when he's gone, searching for articles about him in the newspaper. They worry about each other, and finally, years later, the day comes when the two are to be reunited, but alas it doesn't go so well. It's not the happy romantic reunion that one would hope for, for Cloud didn't make SOLDIER and he becomes concerned. He thinks Tifa won't think much of him, so he hides himself behind his mask, unaware that she truly does care for him. Tifa is upset that Cloud doesn't show up, also unaware that he is in fact, by her side. They continue to think about each other, and it drives us, the Clotis crazy to think of how close they were to one another. Hey that's good writing :monster:

Finally the time comes for Cloud to save Tifa, but he arrives too late, however he is still able to take out Sephiroth. Tifa is, however, unconscious and doesn't get a chance to talk to the one she longs to see.

Afterwards, we know the story with what happens with Zack and Cloud. So when FFVII begins, we have Cloud and Tifa finally reunited and able to talk to one another, but something is wrong. Cloud knows things he shouldn't know and is acting funny. Tifa, worries about him, asks if he'll join Avalanche so she can keep an eye on him as she begins to question her own sanity. She doesn't understand why Cloud knows stuff he shouldn't know and is worried it's her own mind that's messed up, so she says nothing.

Cloud has forgotten everything he ever thought about Tifa when he was a kid. He is cold to her and doesn't seem interested in her at all. This is how the story pans out, until the Lifestream event.

This is the big moment. After years of worrying about each other, caring about each other, longing for each other, they finally see without a doubt just how important they are to each other. They become aware of the feelings they were carrying for each other, and it is then, under the highwind that the romantic reunion that is several years past due finally happens.

This is when their new life begins, but again there are hurdles. The thing about those hurdles is this, they make Cloud and Tifa stronger. They work through it. Cloud realizes he doesn't have to suffer in loneliness and it brings them closer together. Their bond is stronger than ever by the time FFVII AC/C ends.

And THAT, my friends, is what I and many others see in Cloti. We see a beautiful love story that transcends over the course of two people's lives from when they were kids to when they are now adults. I hope, that this will help people better understand the Cloti perspective :monster:
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Ok, so I did my spiel at Q's request, and in return she has pulled out a much more comprehensive, well cited, all around badass spiel of her own. Lots of Cloti supporting quotes from a fair sampling of the Compilation. Anyone got ANY supporting evidence for Clerith that's even half that good? Something other than interpretations and opinions to match up with this stack of quotes and arguments Q has just dropped into the thread?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
And I didn't even finish it :awesome:

You can expect a better one if I ever get my quotes site back up.

and I know Chantara DID post a Clerith essay a few pages back... but I guess it's not allowed? Even if it's her own site.
 
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ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
...Cloud was mako poisoned when Zack died, there was not much he could do. He did cry when Zack died though and he did scream. Zack also held him close. Are you saying Clack is canon then too? I'm all for that. BD Seriously though, it was a dramatic moment his friend just died. There's no proof that his feelings are of love. It's simply just grief. If your friend died would you hold them close and feel regret//remorse, especially if they died in the same way? I'd like to hope so.

Cloud couldn't do anything when Aerith died either. It was sudden. The difference between Zack and Aerith's death: Zack held Cloud's head to his bloody abdomen; Cloud held Aerith's body close to his as his shoulders were heaving as if he were crying.
I would say that's some powerful grief for a mere 'friend'.

Different. Cloud didn't come rushing to Kadaj's side out of care or concern, they were enemies. He also didn't go "Kadaj! Who did this to you?!" Moreover, he did not lay close to Kadaj while themed music played.

But Cloud caught Kadaj as he fell, enemies or not. He caught the man's body when he didn't really need to because, well they were enemies and minutes ago the guy was trying to kill him. Such a good person *sniffs*
And it would be freaky if Cloud asked who did it to Kadaj when he knows it was him.

Because Aerith's appearance is quite special. Not just to Cloud, but to us the viewers. No proof that it's romantic though. If so, please tell.

It's a homage to a scene in FF7. You do remember that don't you? That scene in the game pretty much says that Cloud wants to see or be with Aerith or hold her hand (at least) again, but it was cut short. Somehow, SE showed the fulfillment of that desire to hold Aerith again. :) That's romantic.

He was not facing away from Tifa. When he holds her, he looks at her. When he realizes Tifa's words and says: "I feel like I've lost weight. All that dilly dally" or whatever it is he says at that scene, she smiles at him and he looks at her. Hand reach scene - he looks at her. He looks at her at the end of AC, as well. When Tifa is sleeping, he stares down at her. He looks at Tifa... all the time. This argument that "Cloud loves Aerith because he looks at her" is a bit ridiculous imo.

No we were arguing how trying to look at Aerith while he averted others is romantic.
Firstly, yes, he does look at her, but not in her eyes. Tifa was looking away. Funny, you'd think she would have at least looked at Cloud who came for her.
Secondly, during their talk in the room, Cloud didn't look at Tifa. Their eyes never met that time.
Thirdly, Cloud says that as he was preparing his swords, and not looking at Tifa. It's Tifa looking at him. The only one Cloud looked at at that time was Denzel, whom he promised that he would see back at 7th Heaven.
Lastly, we were talking about how Cloud looks at people when he talks to them. Which he does not quite often.

EDIT:
Yes, he did look at her during the hand reach scene. But he also looked at Aerith during their hand reach scene. So, Clerith and Cloti gets one point each for that one. LOL.
In the end of AC, he looks at everyone, not just Tifa. She was given focus because she gave Cloud the i-told-you-so kind of smile and gesture.

No, you are trying to make a point that looking at someone makes it romantic... I am saying it doesn't matter.

And I'm saying it does. :) Especially when you haven't seen said person for years.

I never doubted that you "saw clerith" when you watched AC. I just wanted to know what you saw. And your explanations painted a rather vivid picture of someone who is taking everything presented to them and going "How can I make this Clerith" or "How can I twist this so it isn't C/T".

Which is why I find it very hard to believe you were describing your first unbiased impressions of the movie.

Oh? Well sorry. But that is my unbiased impression on it. Frankly, it was very annoying. I couldn't understand why it seemed to hard for you to really accept the fact that people do get the Clerith vibe the first time they watch AC without prior knowledge of the compilation whatsoever.
You're taking this LTD too seriously, IMO. Chill. Let loose bro.
 
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ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
Suteki18 said:
Wow. Do you realize that you've been completely ignoring Cloud's grief over Zack's death, his worry towards Tifa, and all of AVALANCHE's grief just to put over it Cloud's grief towards Aerith's death and paint it as romantic? >_<

Again, have I pertained to anything "official"?
And how am i *completely* ignoring Cloud's grief, his worry over Tifa, and the grief of all the AVALANCHE members? Did I say things like that?
Yes he worries about Tifa, but that did not come off as romantic to me. Just the same as the scene where Cloud and Aerith are alone in a flowerfield with Cloud trying to look at Aerith's face isn't romantic to you.

You're drifting dangerously near the borderline of my tolerance level there, miss. Thought you should just know. :)

Not to mention that looking at someone straight in the eye doesn't mean you love them, and Cloud and Tifa are too shy and afraid of losing the other to do anything extremely romantic (me thinks)

When you look a person in the eye when you talk to them, *more* sincerity is communicated to the other person. And being too shy? That doesn't help their case much.
 

ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
Way to miss my point, but ok.

I was asking you if there was a time I was pertaining to the word "official".

Umm... yes you did. "Zack held Cloud's head to his bloody abdomen" not even mentioning Cloud's scream/shows of grief, "As for Cloud holding Tifa, he did the same to Kadaj... OMG! Cloud loves Kadaj!" ignoring the focus on Cloud trampling over the flowers and the focus on his worried expression and him calling out to her,

Please don't misinterpret that as *completely* ignoring Cloud's grief. I was pointing out the difference in the scene, not the grief.
I was pointing out why I thought that Cloud holding Aerith's lifeless body plus his lines made it romantic.
If you interpreted that as me *completely* ignoring things, then that's your interpretation and not mine.

"Cloud held Aerith's body close to his as his shoulders were heaving as if he were crying." here I have to say that it's impressive that you've noticed his shoulders heaving as if he were crying on such a low poly model, and I mean that seriously.

A script. It's useful.

I do wonder though if you know the full context of that scene, why Cloud is the only one there and why is he the one that held Aerith.

He asked the others not to approach them. Why did he do that?

"I would say that's some powerful grief for a mere 'friend'." Because the other members of the group don't show any strong emotion right? I'd consider more romantic Yuffie's cries or Tifa craddling Aerith's face, but oh well, I'm not here to discuss my opinions, just the facts shown.

Yuffie's cries? Tifa cradled Aerith's face? When? This is the first time I've seen that in an argument.

Umm.. ok? I thought I'd be able to post in a thread I actually know what I'm talking about, it seems not :/ I was just trying to help you understand some of the scenes, since you don't have the full picture.

I was talking about you claiming that I'm *completely* ignoring things when I'm not. It's the one thing I hate about debates.

I do find it funny that you say this after telling Vendel that he's taking the LTD too seriously and to "chill out, bro!" though.

Do I look like I'm taking it seriously? HAHA!

Well, Tifa does try to look at Cloud in the eyes when she's trying to understand his answer, if you want to look for "points". I still think no couple needs to be looking at each other's eyes all the time (even if Cloud and Tifa do it quite a lot. If we go for that kind of teenager love, what about all the times Cloud says Tifa's name, or the times Tifa's says Cloud's? But I consider that a bit childish to debate). And let's not forget that in AC/C Cloud and Tifa have problems caused by Cloud's distance which is caused by his grief. Why would a couple having a rough patch would be all lovey-dovey?

But they don't look right at each other's eyes, either Cloud was facing away of Tifa was. Which is why I find Cloud trying to take a look at Aerith's face even as they were back to back romantic. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not saying they should be lovey dovey when they're having a rough patch.

And how does being shy neglect a relationship? :huh:

too much shyness cause too much misunderstandings, IMO, but it doesn't neglect a relationship.

Anyway, I'll refrain from replying to your posts as much as possible, don't worry :/

I didn't say that. I apologize if it seemed that way.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
When you look a person in the eye when you talk to them, *more* sincerity is communicated to the other person. And being too shy? That doesn't help their case much.

This point is what...exactly? That Cloud looks Aerith in the eye when he talks to her? Example please. Back to back in the flower field? No eye contact. Facing Bahumut Sin...no talking. In the church--pretty distant for eye-smex, and Zack was present to boot. Compilation destroys any Clerith is Canon case out there. Shipping it, well, that's totally opinion based and fun. But to assert canonically that Aerith and Cloud have a romantic connection, and to hold that romantic standard up on such a tenuous thread as 'he looks her in the eye' well...then you have to hold every character pairing option to that same standard and since Yuffie gets not only eye contact but the the only kiss we've ever seen from Cloud...I guess that makes her his canon partner. End of LTD.

Man, I vanish for a summer and we actually get Cleriths in the thread, which is cool, but using the same tired arguments I see. On both sides.

I've read through some pages of circle logic and winded words...and really only see people arguing about the Highwind scene. So, I guess I'll comment on that (hopefully without a long-ass essay) The Highwind scene options only change Tifa's affection level. NOT Cloud's. So even if you (in-game) decide the low affection is your head-canon, that doesn't negate the fact that Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa (and her huge boobs). So despite that white-knuckle wish on shippers' part, even if you concede it as optional, it doesn't change Cloud's affections, and still, therefore, doesn't allow wiggle room for a Clerith romance either. Also, if the HA version is 'optional' and not canon (which , really?? we're still arguing that?) Then Aerith's date NEVER occurs. Even as an optional outcome, since there are numerous options there, then anyone playing the game can always make Barret canon. Always Yuffie. Never Tifa. Never Aerith, if they so choose, and therefore, doing so nullify's her date. All dates, actually, and the Golden Saucer date-night is removed from canon. Which, hey, that works for me, as it doesn't really effect the overall narrative. So, from now on, anyone that argues the LA/HA versions are optional canon can't use the Cloud/Aerith date (or anything said on it) as a support pillar for their shipping argument. Otherwise they are at the height of hypocrisy and really, can't be taken seriously. Just saying.

How was everyone's summer? Good, I hope. :glomp:
 

OneWingedDemon

NOT AMUSED
This is why I HATE bringing in the Highwind Scene to these debates. It goes around in circles just like this. It's been at least 10 pages of the same thing.
It's not going in circles because we're all making equally valid points.
I haven't seen Anastar make any valid counterarguments. Only repeat the same thing ad nauseum as if repeating it will make it true. Several major points and direct questions by at least Tres, Ryu (and myself) have not even been addressed.

The Highwind scene cannot be optional if SE refer to it as a factual event within the story. Doing so means that SE consider it and its outcome part of the canon. If it's canon, it has a difinitive outcome or else you can't continue a story. And its outcome has been stated to be the same (SE describe that scene in the same words over and over)- Cloud and Tifa share their mutual feelings adn then consequently come to live together and raise kids together.
 
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ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
This point is what...exactly? That Cloud looks Aerith in the eye when he talks to her? Example please. Back to back in the flower field? No eye contact. Facing Bahumut Sin...no talking. In the church--pretty distant for eye-smex, and Zack was present to boot.

No. We were talking about how romantic it was that Cloud tried to look at Aerith during the flowerfield scene.

Compilation destroys any Clerith is Canon case out there. Shipping it, well, that's totally opinion based and fun.

We believe otherwise.

But to assert canonically that Aerith and Cloud have a romantic connection, and to hold that romantic standard up on such a tenuous thread as 'he looks her in the eye' well...then you have to hold every character pairing option to that same standard and since Yuffie gets not only eye contact but the the only kiss we've ever seen from Cloud...I guess that makes her his canon partner. End of LTD.

Uhm... excuse me, but like I said, we were establishing how the flower field scene could be romantic. :) And it's not only that which can say Cloud and Aerith has romance in it.

Man, I vanish for a summer and we actually get Cleriths in the thread, which is cool, but using the same tired arguments I see. On both sides.

Meh, you're not alone. :)
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
The debate is thus.
Anastar: It's optional, therefore not canon!
Everyone: But Optional doesn't mean there's no canon version. Yuffie, Vin, Shadow. Etc.
Anastar: But the page said there was no canon version of date because it was optional.
Me, Tres, etc: Not what that meant. Here's why. Additionally, we have several reasons to conclude that the High Highwind is canon, less so for any particular date. It feels like you're focusing on wording rather than meaning
Anastar: Actually, I didn't focus on the wording. My main point, and the point on which I tried to focus, is that what is said on page 232 is that there are two versions of the Highwind scene, and that which version you get is determined by Tifa's affection rating with Cloud.

What that means is that the Highwind scene is optional - not that it has a canon outcome.

That last one is a direct quote from her last post, BTW.
So yes, we've not been given any reason why the HH scene should be acanon apart from 'it is optional', and we have explained why it is not us declaring the date scenes to be without an official version, and why it's hard to do so even if you want to.
We note that on the FTOIL page, the action derived nature of the scenes is what gets emphasis. On the same page, the conclusion (mutual romantic feelings confirmed without words) of one particular version of another scene is what is given emphasis.
It takes going to another page and reading a sidebar for the book to recognize the variability of the scene, and even then, the same page again twice emphasizes one version over the other, and the book emphasizes the same version a third time as one of the most important scenes in the game.

Now for big reply! This was written before the above.

Ariadne

First of all, I'm sorry if you ever thought I was calling you a liar because I never intended to say anything like that about you. I do not think you are a liar, and I do not think you're trying to "pull something". What I did try to do was respond to you honestly and thoroughly. If what I said offended you in any way, I'm sorry for that.

Apparently, what I said offended Ryu, too, since I found his last post to me yesterday to be rather rude.

In what way was I rude? I was certainly facetious and sarcastic at points, but seriously, Commercials. As proof. It's absurd on its face.
And no, you didn't offend me. You claimed very silly things. Very silly things I had to demonstrate as silly by applying the exact claim to other situations.

I'm not trying to be rude. But hey, I think you and other Cloti's are drawing the wrong conclusion when you say that Cloti is canon. I'm trying to tell you why, and I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with you about it. That's all.

So why don't you and me and Ryu and Discord try to have a polite and honest discussion with each another, instead of trying to insult one another?

If you want to have a civil discussion, it might help to have recognized when he and I both add additional information to clarify the article. It might also help to not assert that a man having an active romance with a dead girl is not an extraordinary claim, but that the same man doing the same with a living one is.

And where did I say you didn't say that?

He didn't say you said he didn't. But you did seem to completely ignore it.

And it sounds to me like you're only reading part of MY post, because what I said is that the statement under the Clerith date scene having no official outcome contradicts the rest of your article as well as undermining the main point.

Oh those oh so telling verbal slips. Second bolding added by me, by the by.
No, the statement under the picture discussing the date says that who comes is up to Cloud's actions. That is what this page emphasizes about the scene. Contrarywise, what it emphasises about the Highwind scene is Mutual confirmation of affection without words.


Then the statement should be clarified, because it says that a scene under player control can't have an official outcome.

Actually, it says that the page itself reinforces the idea of player choice, so there's no 'official' version, which even if I meant it exactly like that, is a different kettle of fish for a couple reasons, not the least of which is that unlike the Highwind scene, we are not given any information regarding the conclusion to work from. And I'm also telling you, as the guy who WROTE the article, I was not saying that player choice prevents something from being official, but that having player choice reinforced here means that in addition to all the contradictory information about which date actually did happen, we cannot declare any one official version.
Look, I wrote the Article in maybe 25 minutes. 10 of that was finding and editing the Ted Koppel image. I did not spend a considerable amount of time on particular word choices. I thought the page itself and some linker text would suffice.

Then it should be clarified.

We have. In this thread. Twice. If you mean on the page, I can do it in two words. You seem to have ignored that I said I could do that.

Actually, I didn't focus on the wording. My main point, and the point on which I tried to focus, is that what is said on page 232 is that there are two versions of the Highwind scene, and that which version you get is determined by Tifa's affection rating with Cloud.

What that means is that the Highwind scene is optional - not that it has a canon outcome.

Again, you're making a leap of logic to a conclusion you want.
Whether Shadow lives or dies is determined by player choice. It is optional.
Whether Tida comes back or remains a dream is by player choice. It too is optional.
Both these things happened. They are therefore, canon.
Yes, which version of the Highwind scene comes about is ultimately up to play control. That means there's optionality in play. Likewise, there is optionality in whether or not Yuffie and Vincent join the party. Optional things can still be canon, can still be MADE official. You point out that the deviation says that if the AV is high, earnest feelings are shared. The main bar, the regular course of events, says that in the narrative, that's what Cloud and Tifa do. As does Tifa's CCU profile, the UO, the U10, and the FTOIL page, which also says that these feelings are romantic ones.
Like I said, your deviation says if y then X. We are told X, thus y happened. That's why in our view, P232 is more or less irrelevant. Your response, as Quex insists on reminding us, it to assert that X happens if z too, but that X is somehow different. You base this on little evidence, and assert things that both don't make much internal sense like 'apathetic feelings for each other' but which also do not make sense in context. Given COT, how can one say Cloud has apathetic feelings for Tifa given that he says he feels he can succeed in his life because he has her. Even if nonromantic, that's far from apathetic.
Of course, then we get into Quex's bit about 'it could also have been meant in the frank or earnest sense' when the issues with 'apathetic' were brought up, but that again makes the difference between the versions pretty much pointless.
Whatever you argue with regards to this scene, remember, Cloud feels positive towards Tifa. She's why his life can succeed and she's an important woman to him, and the formed a family together. Even if that's not romance, it's far from apathetic.
And even then, I totally forgot to mention the 'important scenes of FF7'

If that's the way you see my argument, that's the way you see it. I'm truly sorry if you see my post as so insulting, since I actually have a great deal of respect for you and I wouldn't want to insinuate that you are a liar or that you don't know what you're talking about.

Part of the problem is that you are arguing that this scene has no canon outcome because it is optional- in fact, that's exactly what you say above "What that means is that the Highwind scene is optional - not that it has a canon outcome.", but go right around and admit that other optional aspects of the game- Vin and Yu, have canon outcomes. You seem to be ignoring that we are providing evidence to indicate why, narratively, the 'High version' is the canon versions, repeating this mantra.

Now, I'm sure Tres can and will have more things to say about his own post, especially the part not responded to, but as this again dealt directly with what I wrote, I figured I'd respond.

Also, because I know Tres really wanted you to see this and respond, I repeat this here now.

Tres said:
Now, seriously, you can continue with this bullshit, truth obscuring focus on a misreading of Ryu's comments from almost two years ago (in which case you will also have to make the plainly absurd claim that the scene with Terra lacks a canon outcome, and that Shadow's death or survival on the Floating Continent lacks a canon outcome, and that FFX-2's story does not have a canon sequence of events; and I'm inflating the length of this sentence, underlining it and including bold and italics tags around the most vital words herein to emphasize that this is the most important sentence in this entire post and that I expect you to address it if you post a response -- or just not bother replying at all; for real) or you can discuss something constructive like what criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
No. We were talking about how romantic it was that Cloud tried to look at Aerith during the flowerfield scene.

She surprised him. It's hardly romantic. He's asking for forgiveness and she asks him "from who". It's not a romantic "I must see her" it's more of a "WTF" because for him, he blames himself, and she doesn't. Really, i shouldn't have to spell that out. If it was Cloud having to see her, he would have turned around to begin with--but he doesn't. She even touches his arm and that doesn't bring him around. The only thing that gets his attention is that she might not blame him.



We believe otherwise.

My 4 year old believes in the tooth fairy. Doesn't make it true.



Uhm... excuse me, but like I said, we were establishing how the flower field scene could be romantic. :)

By what standards? Because there's a LOT of things in the compilation that COULD be romantic between a NUMBER of characters. Tseng and Aerith, Sephiroth and his sword, Barret and Cloud, Cid and Tiny Bronco...and honestly Zack and Cloud's back to back was way sexier.

And it's not only that which can say Cloud and Aerith has romance in it.

Well, feel free to educate me on the more obvious ones I'm apparently missing.
 

Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
Nope. I've watched tons of walkthroughs throughout the 2 years I've been online, although I can't say that I've watched everything. I just paid attention to those which are always used in debates, like the HA/LA HW scene or Aerith's death, the bonfire scene, etc... And yes, I've watched AC/C. My brother and I also played DoC and CC. I was watching and would butt in at times. My hands aren't that fast enough when it comes to gunning, but I like the feel of it. LOL.
I've also read some of MotP and CoLW, albeit not in full yet. But CoT, I've finished. I could get back to reading by our break. Hopefully, I find more material online.
Got it!

Haha! Let's just drop it then? I'll be replying to Ryu soon, so you could pick out my arguments there. :]
I agree. :)

I didn't. :( Huhu!
What a shame. :(

Alright, I'm trying to be open-minded here. All the Canon!Clerith supporters who read this, explain to me exactly why you think C/A is canon.
I've already seen the quotes that ClerithRaven posted (But you know what? You guys can post it again if you want to), and they show that Aerith affected Cloud, yes. And Cloud felt attracted to her, YES.

OK GIVE IT TO ME
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
It's not going in circles because we're all making equally valid points.
I haven't seen Anastar make any valid counterarguments. Only repeat the same thing ad nauseum as if repeating it will make it true. Several major points and direct questions by at least Tres, Ryu (and myself) have not even been addressed.

I'm fully aware of why the thread is going in circles. I didn't mean to put the blame on one group or one person, but as I said this is why I hate bringing up the Highwind scene because no matter who it is, it always ends up like this.

There's also a shit load of replies for her to read and go through and she probably doesn't have the time to read them all. These are the things I'd really like to see her reply to so maybe I'll just point those out now as I think others would agree.

Chantara

I think these are the most important things you need to reply to:

Now, seriously, you can continue with this bullshit, truth obscuring focus on a misreading of Ryu's comments from almost two years ago (in which case you will also have to make the plainly absurd claim that the scene with Terra lacks a canon outcome, and that Shadow's death or survival on the Floating Continent lacks a canon outcome, and that FFX-2's story does not have a canon sequence of events; and I'm inflating the length of this sentence, underlining it and including bold and italics tags around the most vital words herein to emphasize that this is the most important sentence in this entire post and that I expect you to address it if you post a response -- or just not bother replying at all; for real) or you can discuss something constructive like what criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not.

Even if this line of thinking was true, how does one go from 'mutually confirmed feelings of disinterest for each other' to 'Cloud feels he can succeed at his new life where previously he had failed because this time he will have Tifa by his side in a different way that before' How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together, raise children together, and have a future together? 'Mutual disinterest' does not logically follow with the rest of the compilation.

Lines talking about romantic feelings


1. (U20 Scenario, pg. 394)
&#12300;VII&#12301;&#26368;&#32066;&#27770;&#25126;&#21069;&#22812;&#12395;
&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12398;&#12362;&#12363;&#12370;&#12391;&#33258;&#20998;&#12434;&#21462;&#12426;&#25147;&#12375;&#12383;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12399;&#12475;&#12501;&#12451;&#12525;&#12473;&#12392;&#12398;&#26368;&#24460;&#12398;&#25126;&#12356;&#12434;&#21069;&#12395;&#35328;&#33865;&#12391;&#12399;&#20253;&#12360;&#12425;&#12428;&#12394;&#12356;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#24444;&#22899;&#12392;&#30906;&#12363;&#12417;&#21512;&#12358;

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

We KNOW this one is romantic because it's on the FTOIL page.

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12398;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12395;&#23550;&#12377;&#12427;&#22909;&#24863;&#24230;&#12364;&#39640;&#12356;&#22580;&#21512;&#12289;&#39131;&#31354;&#33351;&#12395;&#27531;&#12387;&#12383;&#12405;&#12383;&#12426;&#12399;&#12289;&#20114;&#12356;&#12434;&#27714;&#12417;&#12427;&#27671;&#25345;&#12385;&#12434;&#30906;&#12363;&#12417;&#21512;&#12358;&#12290;

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

We know this is romantic because it's talking about the high Affection version.

3. (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
&#27531;&#12387;&#12383;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12399;&#12289;&#20114;&#12356;&#12408;&#12398;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#25171;&#12385;&#26126;&#12369;&#12289;&#30906;&#12363;&#12417;&#21512;&#12358;&#12290;

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

Talking about the HA version.

4. (U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
&#12381;&#12375;&#12390;&#12289;&#12405;&#12383;&#12426;&#12289;&#12365;&#12426;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12383;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12399;&#12289;&#27531;&#12373;&#12428;&#12383;&#26368;&#24460;&#12398;&#26178;&#38291;&#12391;&#20114;&#12356;&#12398;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#25171;&#12385;&#26126;&#12369;&#21512;&#12358;&#12290;

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

Talking about the HA version.

Quotes that don't say which feelings:

1. (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
&#26368;&#32066;&#27770;&#25126;&#12434;&#21069;&#12395;&#19968;&#26178;&#35299;&#25955;&#12434;&#23459;&#35328;&#12375;&#12289;&#39131;&#31354;&#33351;&#12395;&#27531;&#12387;&#12383;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12392;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379;&#12427;&#12290;

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12398;&#25552;&#26696;&#12391;&#19968;&#26178;&#35299;&#25955;&#12377;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12395;&#12394;&#12427;&#12364;&#12289;&#39131;&#31354;&#33351;&#12395;&#27531;&#12426;&#12289;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379;&#12427;&#12290;

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

3. (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
&#22823;&#20999;&#12394;&#20154;&#12398;&#24453;&#12388;&#22580;&#25152;&#12408;&#12392;&#20210;&#38291;&#12364;&#25955;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12365;&#12289;&#12405;&#12383;&#12426;&#12365;&#12426;&#12395;&#12394;&#12383;&#12463;&#12521;&#12489;&#12392;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12290;&#27531;&#12373;&#12428;&#12383;&#26368;&#24460;&#12398;&#26178;&#38291;&#12391;&#12362;&#20114;&#12356;&#12398;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#25171;&#12385;&#26126;&#12369;&#12289;&#12381;&#12375;&#12390;&#8230;&#8230;&#12290;

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

4. (CCU, pg. 33)
&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#12399;&#29289;&#35486;&#12398;&#32066;&#30436;&#12395;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379;&#12289;&#12300;AC&#12301;&#12300;DC&#12301;&#12398;&#26178;&#20195;&#12399;&#19968;&#32210;&#12395;&#26286;&#12425;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12290;

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings no ifs ands or buts. That's a lot if you ask me. So which makes more sense. That half the quotes are speaking of some feelings we don't know, or that they are all talking about the same thing?

In a scene where all leave to find those most important to them, Cloud and Tifa remain behind to spend the night together.....to discuss how much they are not interested in each other?

Do you realize how little sense you make?

If two people aren't interested in each other, then romance simply doesn't enter the conversation. It is assumed that unless two people do share their loveydovey feelings for each other, that they are NOT a couple. We do not need a whole fucking declaration to tell us they aren't. I do not see Cloud and Yuffie holding conversations about their mutual disinterest in each other. Or Tifa and Barret.

Unless one party is interested and the other is not, then sure. But then their feelings would not be mutual.

You seem to be fixated on the pictures and not what is underneath them. Which is why I guess you left out Yuffie and Barret in your scenario. I mean it's only 50% of the available options.


I know why Tifa is there. It clearly talks about her and Cloud's mutual romantic feelings. But remind me again, what does that page say about Aerith? It must say something about her if you are going to remove Yuffie (and Barret) from your options list and just focus on her.
 
The answers are guilt and surprise. These are not romantic.
Where is directly stated that Cloud did look up for Aerith because of guilt and surprise?

This was directed at CR. Who apparently could feel Cloud's longing from the scene we talked about above. Yet felt nothing from the C/T scenes.
I guess it's okay then.

Uh....yeah he probably would have.
Indeed - he probably would have, he probably wouldn't. You can't tell.

He was trying to protect his family from his failure.
And we all know it's best to NOT inform your family about a violent gang who tried to kick your butt because they will be safer this way...

Always with certain people Cloud's actions around Tifa are so mechanical. Yet his interactions with Aerith are so full of emotion it almost hurts to watch right?
I'll ask again - what depicts romance in this scene?

Kadaj? KADAJ!? Who did this to you?
See? It works ;3

Well they are her symbol right? And for Cloud Aerith is the most precious thing ever right? Yet when he sees Tifa he tramples the fuckers.
Marlene likes flowers too and tramples off them. Besides, who said that flowers where most precious to Cloud?

She is going to be raised by Tifa and Cloud for the rest of her childhood.
Stated by whom?
Also, Cloud is barely there; how would he raise Marlene if he isn't present most time at all?
And besides, what about Barret? I guess he won't go back to his daughter once he finished his job?

Even when he behaves as a parent this is overridden?
Tell me where it's stated that he acts like a father to Marlene.

So that he could absolve his guilt through Denzel.
Stated where?

Tifa also thinks that Denzel was sent to live with her by Aerith.
Since we all know that Tifa isn't from time to time telling herself things that aren't true...?

And then Cloud agrees with Tifa that Denzel was sent to THEM.
Since Cloud also fakes a smile, it's questionable if this was meant to be true, too.

In the space of about 10 seconds in a phone conversation.
Tifa thinks that to herself until she meets up with Denzel - she has got more than 10 seconds to do so.

BARRET DOES NOT LIVE AT 7TH HEAVEN.
However, he is called her father though.

TIFA IS RAISING THE CHILDREN WITH CLOUD.
Tifa raises them alone since Cloud is barely present.

THEY ARE THE FAMILY DESCRIBED IN THE MOVIE AND THE ULTIMANIAS.
Indeed - friends who are like family.

So your version of Cloud keeps a family photo on his desk to what? Remind himself of how miserable he is?
Fact is, we do not know why. We don't even know who put it on the desk.

Because that clearly jives with how she is portrayed and how the creators talk about her.
So is there a quote saying "Tifa could never place a family phot on the desk because that would be out of character for her"?

So I guess your Aerith despite not showing up again......what pushes Zack into the light then attacks Cloud like Slimer and lives in his soul or something?
I don't get the "attacks Cloud like a Smiler"-part, I'm sorry.
She shows up in the credits while Cloud is riding on his bike.

his name is Zack.
His original name is Zacks.
I like 'Zacks' more than 'Zack'.
I'm not going to call him something different because the English translators weren't able to translate properly.

And the living cannot have relationships with the dead.
Tell that to Yuna and Edward.

And stop saying Aerith doesn't love Zack. It's not very convincing after she has to run out of his parents house when she hears about him.
I don't care about your opinions of the Gongaga scene since it doesn't matter anyway if Aerith states that she loves Cloud in Case of Lifestream.

She never knew the real Cloud.
Ahh, this discussion again.
"Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters."
"Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. "
"This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. "
"Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him."
"Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. "
Case Closed.

Yes and? Who is the one she is hanging out with in AC? Oh yeah it's the one who she wished to meet more than anything.
So standing next to a person is equalling a romantic affection? ...Are you serious...?
Also, where is it said that she wished to see him more than anything after the events of FFVII?

NO SHE DOES NOT.
If Aerith tries to see him again, then she tries to reunite with him.

Aerith is there to stop Sephy.
I wonder why she never faces him.
Also, do you have a quote for that? Or some arguments why she "tries to stop Sephy" without even mentioning him once? Or why she did always talk about CLOUD instead of SEPHY?

Before this we have no indication she even thinks about Cloud.
Are you really sure you watched the movie? Talking to Cloud in the Forgotten City, healing their wounds, helping him defeat Bahamut, messaging his mobile phone, healing his geostigma, healing his remaining wounds, saying encouraging words to him and watching him riding his motorcycle - no, she doesn't even think about Cloud.

No she leaves with Zack. Her destined partner.
I wonder where this is stated.
And I would like to know how you depict Aerith. First saying this, then that, then again this, and again that?

It's that thing that actually happens. Unlike Clerith.
It's that thing that has actually happened. Since Aerith stated that she loves Cloud in an official novel.

I was talking about the church. Not the forgotten city.
What? I was sure you meant the Forgotten City since you basically said Cloud avoids the church.

It's the symbol for Zack pure and simple
Show me evidence.

And they are Denzel's parents according to the U10.
I know this quote.
But that wasn't what I asked for. I know that Denzel sees Cloud like a father, but I want to see a quote where it's stated that Cloud feels the same about any of the kids.

I don't have a full translation but Marlene's profile in the U10 also mentions this family, and there's no mention of Barret in it...
He was already mentioned to still be her father in the novel, so don't worry.

So is it not special when he holds Aerith when she gets killed then?
I'm sure he would have done this with any of his friends, with maybe a few things different.

BTW Lady Lifestream, didn't you do those translations from the German OTWTAS? Those might be interesting to some here, maybe you should posts those.
Indeed, I did them. I'll post them when I've got the time.

Right, but an interpretation is not a fact.
And I'm sure I didn't say that.

If you think that the entire game is up to interpretation, then why are you in the LTD thread?
I want to remember that you can only see things as canon that are already proven.
Maybe I just want to have a good day enjoying myself writing here...? ;3

I don't mean that offensively, but if there are no facts to be presented it just seems sort of pointless.
So I don't post facts in my post?

A bond that can't ever be broken.
Where was this said?
This would - if meant in a romantic way - contradict Aerith saying she loves Cloud.

Well, what's wrong with him repeating himself?
I didn't say anything about facts, I just said it could be a hint.
As for me, I won't take this seriously because he seems to repeat himself over and over again in certain times.

Unless you like said friend.... romantically.
Yes, unless you do. This is a way to interpret things, true.

Really, how so? Ithink Cloud and Tifa are comparable to a good amount of FF pairs.
I don't.
I would would answer this question in full, it would too likely develop into my own opinion, and that's something nobody (haha) cares for.

but yeah... you have it right there on Marlene's profile. The four people (herself, Cloud, Tifa and Denzel) are the family... but maybe someone better at Japanese can confirm? :awesome:
Isn't this referring to the time where Barret is already gone?

Why would it represent Angeal?
Because it was originally his sword.
My point is: since you don't know what it shall represent, it could represent anything.

Hi! :)

Well, we were talking about first impressions on AC. I just emphasized that it didn't look romantic to me because they didn't leave together. It was my standard as a 13/14 year old kid. :D
Helloie^^

Ah, okay, then I missed that point.

I thought Cloud didn't hear that since Zack said it after Cloud left and while he was going in the Lifestream.
Cloud didn't hear him for sure.
But honestly, if he doesn't hear him, why would there be the reason to say it if it wasn't to be meaningful in any certain way? This would be... odd. Not unlikely, but odd.

It just seemed like you didn't want to "count ACC in", because the ending hints towards Zerith.
Since Aerith did already tell that she loves Cloud, the hint towards Zerith should be out of discussion.

I believe for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own
feelings and love for Aerith
. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even to
this very day
.... It's relation with the church scene is... . Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination.
Good point. However, in both quotes, it wasn't stated what kind of feelings are expressed/Cloud feels towards Aerith.
So both quotes are ambiguous.

Not all love is soft and tender.
However, FF love is, isn't it?

You are also claiming that a man deciding to have a relationship with the woman he's had a crush on since he was EIGHT and STILL HAS THOSE FEELINGS FOR is a more outrageous claim than having a romance with a ghost.
Wait, aren't you then claiming that Edward couldn't have a relationship with Anna despite her being a ghost?
Also, it was said that this crush was "in the past", so you don't know if he still lasts.

Why does this give me the vibe that you see FFVII as a romance story?
Wasn't it said that both heroines have feelings for Cloud? So - at least - it would be a one-sided romance story since we don't know how Cloud feels.
 
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Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
Lady Lifestream said:
Stated by whom?
Also, Cloud is barely there; how would he raise Marlene if he isn't present most time at all?
And besides, what about Barret? I guess he won't go back to his daughter once he finished his job?
He lives with her. I'm sure he gets time to raise her together with Tifa. But yes, of course Barret will come back eventually. Cloud and Tifa still have Denzel to raise, thought.

Tell me where it's stated that he acts like a father to Marlene.
Tell me where it's stated that he's like a big brother. That makes less sense.

It's that thing that has actually happened. Since Aerith stated that she loves Cloud in an official novel.
That's one-sided.

Tifa raises them alone since Cloud is barely present.
Bullshit.

Ahh, this discussion again.
"Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters."
"Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. "
"This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud."
"Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him."
"Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. "
Case Closed.
Aerith realized that Cloud wasn't being himself, she wanted to learn to know the real Cloud. She didn't know the real him already, that's a big difference.

Since Aerith did already tell that she loves Cloud, the hint towards Zerith should be out of discussion.
Where? In Maiden?

Because it was originally his sword.
My point is: since you don't know what it shall represent, it could represent anything.
No. The sword represents Zack for Cloud. What else could it be? At least not Angeal.
 
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