The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Gym Leader Devil]

Drake, my only names I've ever used are all in my aka field. And whatever you been waiting so long to use, it appears to be borked. Unless someone else can see it, perhaps.

 

[Dashell]

I thought he wanted us to see a broken spoiler.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just wanna say, if you're gonna deride and insult an entire thread and its participants, you should at least get the image you're gonna use to load properly....

And fyi, since you're against walls of text, the debate's actually been quite civil and intelligent, probably more so than its ever been. But I guess you missed that.

Anyways, carry on everyone.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not that he can see this, but Anastar was doing more than 'ignoring points made', she was ignoring large chunks of posts, even when these were made very very obvious to her. Repeatedly.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Oh while we're way off topic, we love you too Q! Or I do, I shouldn't speak for EVERYONE.

But, I betcha if a mod were to poke their head in here, they'd tell us to get back on topic. So why don't we just go ahead and do that and save them the trouble/deny them the pleasure? If you wanna call us out on whatever hypocrisy you see from us in here Drake, you know where to find our profiles and PMs.

Edit: oops, too late, Ryu's already gotten it

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd really hate to have to start handing out more thread bans and infractions. Cause I got a sack full right here to fill a Claire Bible. Especially for a cute lil' Holy Dragon that just decided to post a macro here...

And we hates macros.

Anyways, next person who decides to be cute and talk about how pointless it is to post in a LTD they don't like gets Gaav Flare to the face.

Stay on topic.

 

[Celes Chere]

Don't call me cute.

 

[Alexia Ashford]

Okay, I'm just kinda jumping in here and I didn't read everything, but I did want to respond to this.

I say the same is true of the Highwind scene. It does not matter if you get the High Affection or the Low Affection version. Cloud will still move in with Tifa and Barret. They will still start a Seventh Heaven in Edge. Marlene will still invite Cloud into the family. Tifa will still say that the family is made up of friends. Cloud will still start a delivery service. Cloud will still bring Denzel home from the Church. Cloud will still disappear and move into the Church. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo will still appear in AC/ACC. NONE of what happens in FFVII after the Highwind scene, in the novella's, in AC/ACC, or DoC is affected by whether or not you get the Low Affection or the High Affection scene. Everything that happens can happen regardless of which version you get.

That could be said no matter what optional thing you do with Aerith, though. No matter what she's still going to die in the end. But there are canon alternates with her, aren't there? Actually, it could be said with everything in FFVII except for maybe getting the optional characters.
I mean, other than getting Vincent and Yuffie for your party, nothing much effects the end outcome of the game. Unless I'm forgetting something, that is.
But that doesn't mean there aren't canon options.

 

[Dashell]

And here's where I call bullshit. Tifa's feelings are the ONLY variable. So, regardless of whether or not you think either version is canon, one constant remains between them and that's CLOUD's affections. And even if Tifa's affection hasn't reached 'ankles in my suspenders' love, her feelings have been more than once confirmed by SE to be romantic in nature in regards to Cloud. So, in either case, Cloud loves Tifa. Your only variable is how long it takes her to catch up.

Okay I've known Anastar for a while now, and I think I need to point out here that she doesn't argue that CxA is canon. She argues that the LT is open to interpretation and that Clerith makes more sense to her, but that neither couple is canon. She also does NOT believe any of the dates are canon. SO telling her, "Well if the HA scene has no canon outcome then neither does the date!" means absolutely nothing to her because she doesn't believe that anyway.

Also she's said a few times now in this thread that if Tifa's affection rating for Cloud is low, than Cloud's must be because it is said the feelings are mutual. I'm only saying this because she's said it before and it's easy for info to get lost in these posts. Not because I agree with her.

And Tifa most certainly does not describe their family as "friends and nothing more." See multiple posts in this thread pointing out she considers Cloud, herself, Marlene and Denzel a "REAL family." That's most certainly not "nothing more." Better yet, see CoT, and the other places this fact is referenced.

No she even says in AC/C "I guess that only works for real families." so no, she sees them as a family of friends, but a family they are none the less.


Now can we please get back to the important matter at hand here?






...


Luzzu can survive sin's attack? Really? How does this happen?

 

[Master Bates]

No she even says in AC/C "I guess that only works for real families." so no, she sees them as a family of friends, but a family they are none the less.

I always thought she said that because... you know... they're family isn't what you call "normal", thus not so "real" to her. I mean, they're made up of 4 totally unrelated (and when I say unrelated, I mean by blood) people, that technically makes their family not real, I guess.

edit: Add to it that the parental figures aren't married and the children aren't theirs. Yea, they're family certainly isn't normal.

 

[Dashell]

Well whenever they say family in the Ultimania it's in quotes for whatever that's worth.

 

[Alexia Ashford]

I always thought she said that because... you know... they're family isn't what you call "normal", thus not so "real" to her. I mean, they're made up of 4 totally unrelated (and when I say unrelated, I mean by blood) people, that technically makes their family not real, I guess.

edit: Add to it that the parental figures aren't married and the children aren't theirs. Yea, they're family certainly isn't normal.

I just figured she was assuming Cloud didn't think they were a real family and that was why he was acting the way he was. I think she thinks they're a real family, but she's afraid of Cloud rejecting that so she rejects it for him.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I do not agree after reading the information that the HA version of the scene is officially what happened

Nojima does. Your argument is invalid.


From the 10th anniversary Ulti.

[talking about Katou and Ikumori, event planner and movie designer of FFVII respectively]

Nomura: Now he’s the movie director on DC and CC.
Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?

For the staff, the Highwind scene is synonymous with “scene with risque dialogue”.
So why do we still claim there is no canon version, when for them the event that happened is the HA one? Seriously. FFS, this is reaching levels of a frustrating amount of bullshit.

 

[Dashell]

I have a quote from the UO that says that a conversation Tifa and Cloud had later in the game related back to what they talked about in the HA version... I need to find it though, to me that says it really did happen anyway...

idk, I'd still like to see that Clerith write up, one kinda like I did only from the Clerith PoV.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Quex: I was under the impression that the Tifa dialogue you speak of, vis a vis "I guess that won't work because we're not a REAL family" was spoken in bitterness and frustration because at that time Cloud isn't ACTING like real family. Not as a matter of constant, long-term opinion that their family is less real than it should be, but because at that time Cloud has left them.

 

[Vendel]

I say the same is true of the Highwind scene. It does not matter if you get the High Affection or the Low Affection version. Cloud will still move in with Tifa and Barret.

Point of order. Cloud tells Tifa he will be with her from the end of the game forward. Barret is not involved in that. So you could say Barret and Marlene moved in with C/T or vice versa. But don't try and word it to make it sound like Tifa and Barret are the family heads and they let Cloud to live with them.

No she even says in AC/C "I guess that only works for real families." so no, she sees them as a family of friends, but a family they are none the less.

FFS Tifa does not see Cloud and Marlene (and later Denzel) as a "family of friends". I don't know what is so hard to figure out that as Barret is leaving Tifa is reminiscing about how she had always managed to get by. She got by with a little help from her friends (AVALANCHE). This is her friends you could call a family (similar to her Dissidia profile). And at that moment the last one was leaving. And what was left is what would be the start of the 7th heaven family. Or the "real family" Tifa is so worried about throughout CoT and AC. The one that is mentioned multiple times in the Ultimania.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I watched the scene again. I get it that he was surprised that Aerith might not blame him. But I didn't see any change whatsoever in his expression before he tried to turn around and look at Aerith.

What expression? His remorseful puppy dog 'but I let you die' expression? That there, darling, is guilt. Not romance.

Don't you also believe in your side?

What side? I'm a canon supporter. If Clerith was canon I'd support it, but I don't because the narrative doesn't hold it up. It's a lovely shipping couple, and a cute fanon pairing, but it is not canon. People are free to ship whatever they want. I ship Fack ffs. However, in this thread we discuss the compilation narrative and the evidence therein. Belief doesn't hold up to facts. So, yes, I believe, but not without supporting evidence.

I don't know abut standards. I've no specifics.

This is sadly obvious.

Here we go again. LOL.

Again? I've been gone for months, so yeah, feel free to enlighten me as I don't think you've ever done so before. If I'm mistaken, please direct me to the posts where you educated me and I will gladly review them.

Blah blah blah, self righteous indignation and butt-hurt hypocrisy, thinly veiled name calling blah blah blah

**slow clap**

Okay I've known Anastar for a while now,

Goodie for you, Q. I don't. Amazing how forums work like that. New people to discuss and debate with.

and I think I need to point out here that she doesn't argue that CxA is canon. She argues that the LT is open to interpretation and that Clerith makes more sense to her, but that neither couple is canon. She also does NOT believe any of the dates are canon. SO telling her, "Well if the HA scene has no canon outcome then neither does the date!" means absolutely nothing to her because she doesn't believe that anyway.

Then SHE can enlighten me. I'm not pseudo debating her via responses from you. Not happening. I don't talk for Ryu or Vendel or anyone else, and I sure as hell don't want anyone debating FOR me, so how about you stop playing advocate and stop coddling. 'Kay?

Also she's said a few times now in this thread that if Tifa's affection rating for Cloud is low, than Cloud's must be because it is said the feelings are mutual. I'm only saying this because she's said it before and it's easy for info to get lost in these posts. Not because I agree with her.

And I said the ONLY variable is Tifa's emotions. Nowhere in any source does it say Cloud's affections change. It's only Tifa's reciprocity that varies, and even still, the end result of them being together is unchanged. It is said MORE than once that she harbors romantic feelings for him, so even in the LOW affection those ARE the mutual feelings. She tells him as opposed to showing him... 'you heard' versus 'you saw'. Hardly anything to be flustered about if she just told him "Hey, let's be friends"... /End

Whyyyyy am I even saying this to you? Let her argue her position on her own. If she can't or won't it's not your concern. **sigh**

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@ClerithRaven: Gym Leader Devil beat me to the reply so I'll just reply to this

Sorry if I screwed up any desire you had to reply in full, t'was not my intention. Anyway, just wanted to comment on:

I think that Cloud was the only one shown at the burial for the same reason Vincent and Yuffie are never shown in CG cutscenes. You can bring whoever you want to the Forgotten City, and I doubt the creators would make all the versions of the cutscene to show each possiblity if they didn't even bother with Vince and Yuffie.

Why did I not think of this myself?! That's so obvious a possibility in hindsight that I now feel slightly dumber for not having seen it.

[/quote]And the first scene when he makes the gesture to not be followed, it could be that Sephiroth was already manipulating him, or that he simply wanted to check what was Aerith doing/what was happening first. I really don't know about that one, that's why I'm here ^^[/quote]

Glad to see I'm not the only one the "Sephiroth could have already been manipulating him" concept occurred to.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

He is very literally gone for DAYS, not months on end.

To what time do you refer to?
At the beginning, he spends his days at the bar.
When he opens his delivery service, Tifa states that he is "spending less time at home" because he is travelling all around the globe.
And after the conversation with Tifa, he leaves completely. So how long is he gone?
I'm not sure if it's stated somewhere, but we know it's between a few weeks and a few months. At least Tifa has given up to reach him on the phone, making it seem more like months than days.
However, this doesn't matter since I referred to the time when he opened his delivery service.
He is only present in the morning and the evening. So he could only see the kids in this time. Not the best time to raise your children, isn't it?

And she calls him a confused kid.

Where does Aerith call Cloud a confused child?

But she herself recognizes that she doesn't know enough of the REAL Cloud to be in love with him.

Said where?

She loves the idea of him and wants to learn more.

If someone loved a wrong idea of Cloud, then it was Tifa in her childhood where she wanted to satisfy her desire to be a "little princess" by being saved by a hero.
So, again, were is it said that Aerith only loves her idea of Cloud? It seems that you said that without any reference to the game.
"Why do you think that?"
"Yeah, well, because I think so though it was hinted nowhere."

Nowhere in ANY compilation or supporting materials is it said that Tifa ignored Cloud.

I have to disagree with you.
"Back in these days, Tifa did hardly notice Cloud. The reason why she asked him "to be saved by a hero" was to satisfy her childish princess desire."
"Though Cloud held feelings for Tifa in the past, her interest into him did not begin until the time where the promise was exchanged."
Also, in a flashback scene, it is clearly stated that Tifa didn't only ignore Cloud but didn't even allow him to enter her room when all her other friends did.
So say again that Tifa didn't avoid or ignore him.

I hardly think they NEVER spoke after that.

However, it's not mentioned that they did. Considering the fact that they never had a conversation before, I think it's rather plausible.

And she knew him well enough after 7 years to know something was WRONG with him (aside from the obvious mako poisoning)

I think you're confusing something here. Tifa didn't knew about any mako poisoning or something like that. She recognized him from her childhood, yes, but that was all. She also needed a rather long time to realize that he holds memories inside his mind he shouldn't remember. And even then, Tifa is unsure if she is just confusing things.
So, does she know him that well? Find the answer for yourself because it doesn't seem that way.

Cloud was with Avalanche for quite awhile before the game even starts...

Wrong. Cloud and Tifa did encounter a few days before the mission starts.

My forehead hurts from the contact it has made with my palm reading this.

My bad.

Seriously. Did you, you know, PLAY the game? Read the novellas? Watch the movie? Anything? Or do you just like pulling shit out of your ass?

Calm it down, Fairheartstrife. I won't allow you to treat me with offense like this.
You say this in a calm and serious manner to me, and you state in which points you disagree and why.
If I don't show any offense to you, then you are expected not to do so as well.

Given that logic, then you have no proof whatsoever that it's even Aerith narrating CoLW.

Good point, I agree.
However, I think it was stated somewhere that CoL was narrated by Aerith and Sephiroth.
Also, Aerith is the only woman stated
* to be a Cetra
* to be a possible love interest to Cloud
* to know Sephiroth from face to face
But since I currently don't have a quote saying that CoL:W was narrated by Aerith, I agree with you.

**facepalm**

You might want to tell me how you disagree with that quote?

In CoT, right?

Indeed.

Then what is he acting like to you?

I have my own views about this scene; if it's not stated by any of the creators, then I guess I can't say it's true.

How? She can't have feelings for two guys?

I think she can, but it's unlikely since Zacks is never mentioned in the context of love with her.

You can start to prove that.

I thought you all read the novellas and already knew what was written in them.
Tifa says that Cloud, having started his delivery service, is barely at home. So I think it's clear where I got it from, right?

I thought they meant that she saw through his "shell".

It wasn't said "shell". It was said "essence", a synonym to "entity" or "being". So if she has seen through Clouds "entity" or "being", this isn't comparable to just see through Clouds "shell" since the context changes.

Why does Aerith tell Cloud that she WANTS to meet the REAL CLOUD, if she already knew him?

I think you have a different view of the pre-Cloud and the real Cloud.
The pre-Cloud remains the same in personality as the real Cloud; however, his motions, memories, and habits are changed to be more like Zacks. So Cloud does only change his persona, not his personality. You can easily tell by comparing Clouds and Zacks personalities.
So what does Aerith mean? Obviously that she wants to get to know the real Cloud without his fantasy persona.

Oh... Is THAT why Tifa helped him in the Lifestream?

Tifa helps him because she loves him.
And in which sense does she help?
She helps him regain his original memories and persona. Since she is the only one who knew that he was present in Nibelheim.

But I haven't found any proof that says that Aerith have no feelings left for Zack.

Wait.
We just clarified that she loves Cloud at the time after FFVII. Let's keep that in mind.
So. We know that she once fell in love with Zacks. How do we know that this ended?
Because she says so.
She says that she won't write him any more letters. She says to Cloud that her relationship with Zacks wasn't a serious one and that he was "good for a while". This doesn't mean that he doesn't hold a place in her heart but that she stopped loving him romantically - especially when he isn't mentioned to have any romantical bond left with her or vice versa. Additionally, one could say that she says that she doesn't love Zacks any longer in Maiden, but it's still in debate if it's canon or not.

The sword is a symbol of Zack, through Cloud's eyes at least.

And like I said before, you don't know that unless it was stated.

Hey, in the Reminiscence of FFVII Vincent tells Cloud to "Get over to Barret's", which is what Cloud does later. Is Barret still away, or does he actually have his own home now?

I doubt that he's got his own home. If he were there, he would have either taken Marlene with him or he had returned to be with her in the Seventh Heaven.
Maybe he means that Barret is currently present there because of his work?
I will look that up.

Excuse me, have you realized that you have just spatted to the face of every living husband/father/wife/mother/parent/person whose job keep them many hours away from their family?

Ähm, yes, I did.

Not to mention, once he realizes this and after he finds Denzel, he gets less jobs to spend more time with his family.

Agreed, he does this.
However, she leaves completely later, so the current situation after AC remains unknown.

Plus, at the end of ACC, in Reminiscence, he tells Tifa to DENY jobs for him, because he wants to take the day off the next day, so he can spend time with the family.

Agreed and disagreed.
Cloud says he wants Tifa to deny his jobs and to close the bar.
He doesn't say why. The "he-wants-to-spend-time-with-his-family"-part was completely interpretation though I would appreciate this to be real.

Yeah, tooooooootally being barely at home.

Indeed, at the time of CoT and AC, he is barely at home.

Your claim is baseless, then.

This is not true. I claimed that someone elses argument is baseless since there is nothing to refer to.
This doesn't mean that my claim is baseless.

And lots of quotes describe the Seventh Heaven family as Cloud's family... you know, as if he's the head, the father of a typical, traditional family. Shocking, huh?

I'm sorry, but did you actually read my posts?
Then please recall what I just said.

WHAT? WTF is this, how on this perfect blue planet did you come to this conclusion??????

I don't know, maybe... the game?

Cloud asked her to come to the water tower, so they definitely talked that time.

Wait. Wasn't he writing her a letter? He did say that he thought Tifa wouldn't come because he thought she hated him.
Also, other boys were writing her letters to come with them to the tower. So you don't know if they talked since it was highly implied that he did only write her a letter.

Moreover, your claim implies that Tifa was that much of a moron as to accept the invitation of the town bully to go and meet him AT NIGHT, IN SECRET, when she hadn't talked to him at all prior to this.

Well, then Tifa is - in your opinion - a moron. Well, after the promise, she fell in love with said "bully", so I think she would be of other opinion.

Karma, destiny...

Mentioned where?

Tifa had been taking care of the same Cloud Aerith knew for WEEKS before Aerith met him.

You might tell me where you got that from?

So much for your claim that she "tried to pretend he wasn't even there most of the time".

I think that was already answered above.

Too bad for Aerith that the real Cloud revolves around Tifa (Lifestream sequence, blah, blah)

I wonder where this was stated.

Have you ever heard of Celes x Locke?

So, if you compare, then there are major differences.
* First, you don't know who would take the place of Rachel and of Celes. Rachel was Lockes first love and Celes his second. However, Tifa was Clouds first love and Aerith would be his second. (And to remind you: this would also equal Aeriths affection for Cloud since Zacks was her first love and Cloud her second). So, Locke went from his first to his second love. This would mean for Cloud to switch on from Tifa to Aerith and for Aerith to switch on from Zacks to Cloud (this would also be applicable for Rinoa since she switched from Seifer to Squall). However, Rachel dies and Locke begins to fall in love with Celes who lives. In this case, Aerith would take the role of Rachel and Tifa the role of Celes. However, Locke refuses to let go of Rachel until she asks him to love Celes with all his heart as he loved her. This makes a major difference since neither Tifa nor Aerith did something like that.

It's always been representitive of Zack.

Then show me a quote stating that.

1. One sided Aerith, when Tifa and Cloud expressed mutual feelings (which apparently means nothing)

And like I already said above, I agree with Aerith's feelings being one-sided since there is nothing that tells us that Cloud feels the same.

Considering the other quotes, the affections for Cloud may not be romantic or she at one point loved two people (which isn't that far fetched).

However, the word "beloved" was translated into a word that is only used to describe romance. And like I said before, nothing about Zack and Aeirth is stated after the time of FFVII.

and not because of my opinion but because that's what the quotes flat out say.

Okay, then give me quotes where it's said that Aerith doesn't love Cloud at the time after FFVII or where it's said that she still loves Zacks at the time after FFVII since your quotes flatout say that.

Do you have any evidence that the smile was fake?

"It seemed like he just wanted to make her believe that everything was alright. An expression of a gentle personality - or did she misunderstand that?"

Do you have any evidence that Yuna was having a relationship when Tidus was dead?

There is evidence that she continued to love him, not that they had a relationship at the time of his death. I'm sorry for not clearing that up before.

Do you have any evidence that she tried to see him again after AC/C?

You didn't read my post properly. I am currently talking about Aerith trying to reunite with Cloud at the time between FFVII and AC/C since that was questioned.
However, she waits for Cloud at the end of the road filmed in Hawaii, so maybe you could say that she wants to say Hi to him again. However, I'm not sure if you can say it this way.

Do you have any evidence of this?

Yes, since it was said that Tifa ignored him until the promise.
This was the first and only time they talked together since there is no conversation shown after that.

I didn't mean to sound like a complete dick here, sorry, I just want you to back up what you say with evidence.

Ayy, no worries^^

So in your mind it's more likely that Tifa forces Cloud to have that family photo on his desk than Cloud simply wanting it there?

Vendel, are you twisting my posts or are you just not reading them with full attention?
Could you please repeat what I said in my post just to show that you understood what I just said?

Not in ACC

Not in the english ACC.
However, she does in AC and - as far as I know - in the japanese version of ACC.

Where is it directly stated that it is romance?

Did I say it was romance?
So, again - do you have something to prove it?

When your family includes a superhumanly strong and fast martial arts master who will probably want to step in and fight the same guys who kicked your own super-strong/fast swordsman ass during a running motorcycle battle, then yeah it actually might be safer to leave them out of it.

Ahh.
So Cloud himself is beaten by them and still expects Tifa to face an opponent who he lost to himself? We know how it ended: Tifa lost to only one of the guys without the motorcycle thingie. I guess Cloud didn't expect that...?

They're already dealing with Denzel's condition, he doesn't think they need his added on.

Yes, and this is stated to be one of the reasons he left.
However, with the appearance of the silverhaired gang, they are a new constant in the equation, and this changes the situation since there are violent people running around to attack him without any reason he knows of. So it's your opinion that Cloud would leave his family in unawareness of this information to protect them?

No it doesn't, it sounds ridiculous.

;P

Marlene does not trample the flowers.

Okay, she doesn't trample, but she walks over them. You might like a reference picture, hmm? You shall have one.
http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/marlenestampsupehy3i8fb.jpg

We've been pointing out that if they ARE an important symbol of Aerith as is so often claimed, his trampling them underfoot without so much as a notice to get to Tifa is a clear show of how much she means to him.

Ahh. You thought I would claim that as well.

but it does not in any way mean he was never present/barely there for Marlene and Denzel.

Again, what did I say?
Did I say that he is never present?
No.
I said that he is not very often there, therefore barely present.

Barret seems to think Marlene is better off with Cloud and Tifa to me, with Denzel as a brother.

Do you mean Barret meaning that Marlene is better off at the Seventh Heaven the time he isn't there or that Marlene should have Cloud and Tifa as her new parents?

Case of Tifa has direct quotes stating Cloud acts like a young father to both of the children.

Wrong. Case of Tifa has one direct quote that Tifa thinks that Cloud looks like a father with his two children.

. Multiple quotes from other sources describe him as being the equivalent of the father in their small family.

Okay, if there are so much quotes, then show them to me.

When has Tifa ever been shown to lie to herself?

In Case of Tifa, stating that she just wanted to make herself think that they are a real family. Also every time she tries to tell herself that everything is alright and will be alright while turning worse.

Kids can have more than one father you know.

However, I ask for a quote to state that.

But not a direct part of THE family, which consists of just four people: Tifa, Cloud, Marlene, and Denzel.

So there is a family and THE family? Where do you get that from? I don't ask for earlier-posted quotes but for a direct quote that states that there are two different families existing.

But we can make reasonable deductions.

So is there a proof validating a reasonable deduction that it was definitively Cloud who put that photo on his desk and no one else?

Is this really something we need to debate?

Since Vendel brought it up, perhaps? I don't know, I just wanted to respond to him. It would be rude to just leave his statement without an answer if he wished for one.

With an S added, it looks goddamn ridiculous to a large number of Westerners.

However, it remains to be his original name. I don't think the name "Cloud" works better.

On a similar note, I see you don't insist on calling Cloud by the name "Cloudo" or "Cloudu" or however that pronunciation would be spelled

His name in japanese is also to be pronounced "Cloud". If I would pronounce the name "Zacks" in a japanese way, it would be "Zakkusu" - and obviously, I didn't call him that.

The Gongaga scene isn't as important as some things, but it DOES have a place in this discussion.

I'm not saying that the Gongaga scene hasn't got a place inside here - I'm saying that his opinion about the scene does not neglect an official quote.

It has as much weight as "Cloud tried to look at Aerith OMG SO ROMANTIC!"

Indeed.

Where is it said that Cloud's greatest wish is to see Aerith again after the events of anything?

It was stated twice that it is Clouds wish to see Aerith again after she departed.
"I think I can meet her there."
"To see her again - that is my wish."

Seriously, I recommend once again you stop trying to tear down the "competiting" pairings and try to support your own.

I'm supporting my pairing, but not here. This is a debate about what is true and what is most likely not true.
None of my subjective personal preferences shall be included here.

Seeing =/= permanent reunion.

Once again, tell me where I said something of a permanent reunion.

You're inferring, we have actual quotes backing our conclusion up.

I already know that they are continuing living at the same place after AC/C, you won't need any quotes to assure this. I think it's quite obvious that he returns to sleep at the place where his family is since he solved his guilt.

That means you should already know that she TRIED to face Sephiroth directly.

I ask for a quote from AC/C. It was said that she does reunite with Cloud because to stop Sephiroth - a thing that isn't true since she never faced him in the movie.

Up until Cloud's victory, assisting and speaking to Cloud is all she could do.

Agreed.

Are you sure you did?

I am ;3

And since even in the AC's credits Cloud and Aerith are never on screen at the same time there is no telling that she is watching him ride Fenrir around and not just tending flowers.

Hmmh, okay, I agree. Indeed, that's right.

What are you talking about exactly?

About saying that Aerith first loved Zacks, then Cloud, then Zacks, then again Cloud, and at the time of AC again Zacks. While there was also the notion of her loving both men at the same time.

Aerith loving Cloud =/= Cloud loving Aerith over Tifa.

Are my posts really that unreadable?

Seriously how do you ask this with a straight face when people keep asking your side to support your position with factual evidence rather than assumptions and interpretations?

So wait, what again?
I'm not supporting my position. Ahh.
So how do I not? I provided arguments to prove and to disprove. I support my position, but my position is rather vague.
So, you do have a problem with this? The thing I said is that there is neither proof for CloTi nor proof for Clerith enough to definitively say that Cloud loves one of the persons in a romantic way.
So, you don't like that? I'm sorry, but there is no unequivocal evidence for both sides. If there isn't one, I also can't provide one.

Then I doubt anything will be.

A direct quote stating that Cloud is a father to Marlene and Denzel will do it.
Then I would be satisfied.

Thank you! Yes, Cloud would have reacted much the same with any of his friends if Sephiroth had skewered them, with some minimal changes to make his words about them instead of her. Glad to finally see some agreement on that one.

You're welcome^^
Nothing in this scene is unequivocally romantic, so it doesn't prove any romance. Hence, it can't be used as an argument.
It is only possible to say that one thinks that something expresses romance, but since nothing like that is stated officially, it can't be used as a valid argument.

We're asking for factual support for your position, and we're getting interpretations instead.

You might want to tell me where I started to claim that my interpretation of things is true? Because this was actually the thing I wanted to avoid.

But by all evidence from the Ultimanias, OtWtaS, Creator Interviews, etc it HAS been proven canon.

I doesn't seem that way since the argumentation is somewhat porous.

I don't understand how you can still hold your position regarding canon or the lack thereof, but I love debating for the pure sake of the debate myself.

I'm glad you do^^

I see mostly unsupported interpretations and opinions.

Mostly, I'm coming up with quotes to disprove other quotes. I didn't interpret once, I just said what a quote actually says and what not.

motional reactions to how you saw things.

You might want to give an example?

Got any actual facts to work with?

No, both sides lack anything like that.

And you repeat yourself plenty in this very thrad,

Maybe because I'm misread that often...?

Can you prove that Cloti is not comparable to other canon FF pairings?

Wait. This will develop into my opinion of why I think they are not comparable to other FF pairings. However, if no official source says something like that, it "didn't happen".
Therefore, this would be only my opinion to discuss, and I'm sure I won't do this in this thread.

Its on Marlene's profile and thus canon either way.

I didn't doubt it was canon.
However, there is no mention of two separate families; hence, when talking about "the family", there is usually one and the same family to be referred to unless stated otherwise.
So there is one quote saying that Barret is part of the family, and another quote saying that there are just Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel who are the family. This is easy to explain since Barret isn't present in the Seventh Heaven. So there is no contradiction.

It's clear that Cloud associates it with Zack and the symbolism he gave it.

If it's clear, then where was it said?

Ambiguous, and not nearly as concrete as what is said about Cloud's feelings regarding Tifa and vice versa.

The only time their feelings were concrete was the High Version, and if there is not quote saying that the Highwind Scene took place for sure, then it can't be brought up as evidence.
Therefore, both lines are ambiguous.

Either way, even if it were just a crush you don't know that it faded either.

The context was the discussion of two members if Cloud conveyed his present romantic feelings for Tifa in the Lifestream event.
The member brought up a quote where it was said that Cloud made Tifa realize that he had feelings for her. However, the member has overlooked that the information conveyed in the Lifestream event was about Cloud having had feelings for Tifa in the past. There was also a quote saying that Cloud had got these feelings in his childhood and that they were "once" and "in the past". So this quote doesn't say that the feelings also continue since it was highly implied that they don't.

Romance is but a single facet of the overall story, not even close to the whole thing.

Ah, okay, then I agree. I just wanted to make sure that romance was also a theme of FFVII, though it didn't held a big part.

 

[Dashell]

Then SHE can enlighten me. I'm not pseudo debating her via responses from you. Not happening. I don't talk for Ryu or Vendel or anyone else, and I sure as hell don't want anyone debating FOR me, so how about you stop playing advocate and stop coddling. 'Kay?

I'm not arguing her side, I'm clarifying something for you that she said that you didn't see for whatever reason. If you can't SEE that she doesn't see either side as canon, and address her as if she said something she didn't say, then I don't know what the point is of you talking to her anyway. I thought you might actually listen to me since you obviously aren't listening to her.

So how about you stop getting all pissy over a lil debate? Kay?

Whyyyyy am I even saying this to you? Let her argue her position on her own. If she can't or won't it's not your concern. **sigh**

You seem to have mistaken "arguing her point" with "straightening out what she actually said." I said I disagree with her, but you're accusing her of saying things she didn't actually say, and IMO, that is my concern. I'd do the same for you and I've done the same for the others before too.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

To what time do you refer to?
At the beginning, he spends his days at the bar.
When he opens his delivery service, Tifa states that he is "spending less time at home" because he is travelling all around the globe.
And after the conversation with Tifa, he leaves completely. So how long is he gone?
I'm not sure if it's stated somewhere, but we know it's between a few weeks and a few months. At least Tifa has given up to reach him on the phone, making it seem more like months than days.

It is stated. And it's days. Less than 2 weeks. Also, she's given up? Which is totally why she calls him within the first 15 minutes of ACC... ooookay...

However, this doesn't matter since I referred to the time when he opened his delivery service.

Which Tifa encouraged him to do, so your fail!logic is still fail.

He is only present in the morning and the evening. So he could only see the kids in this time.

Kid. Singular. Denzel is not there yet.

Not the best time to raise your children, isn't it?

When does having a full time job prevent you from raising your children and being a family?

Where does Aerith call Cloud a confused child?

On their date at the Gold Saucer.

Said where?

Again, on their date. Go replay the scene if you have to.

If someone loved a wrong idea of Cloud, then it was Tifa in her childhood where she wanted to satisfy her desire to be a "little princess" by being saved by a hero.

That's some mighty fine conjecture you got there.

So, again, were is it said that Aerith only loves her idea of Cloud? It seems that you said that without any reference to the game.
"Why do you think that?"
"Yeah, well, because I think so though it was hinted nowhere."

**head to desk**

I have to disagree with you.

Shocking.

"Back in these days, Tifa did hardly notice Cloud. The reason why she asked him "to be saved by a hero" was to satisfy her childish princess desire."
"Though Cloud held feelings for Tifa in the past, her interest into him did not begin until the time where the promise was exchanged."
Also, in a flashback scene, it is clearly stated that Tifa didn't only ignore Cloud but didn't even allow him to enter her room when all her other friends did.
So say again that Tifa didn't avoid or ignore him.

And this is from what source material, exactly? Oh, that's right, it's not. Making shit up only makes you look ill informed. Perhaps you could use better sources than fandom essays, yes?

However, it's not mentioned that they did. Considering the fact that they never had a conversation before, I think it's rather plausible.

Where is it stated they never spoke before the night at the well? They were neighbors. He followed her up the mountain when her mother died. He watched her play piano through her bedroom window. Chances are they at least exchanged pleasantries...or Cloud is a weirdo stalker that needs lots and lots of therapy even before Shin-Ra gets him.

It's also far LESS plausible than Cloud having a hard-on for a dead chick. If we're keeping things on the same scale of "believable standards".

I think you're confusing something here. Tifa didn't knew about any mako poisoning or something like that.

She knew him well enough to know something was wrong with him. That's the point.

She recognized him from her childhood, yes, but that was all. She also needed a rather long time to realize that he holds memories inside his mind he shouldn't remember.

Somehow I doubt "Hey, remember that time our hometown burnt to the ground? Hahaha, yeah, good times..." came up. Especially since she didn't KNOW he was THERE.

And even then, Tifa is unsure if she is just confusing things.
So, does she know him that well? Find the answer for yourself because it doesn't seem that way.

Are you purposefully ignoring facts?

Wrong. Cloud and Tifa did encounter a few days before the mission starts.

I'm gonna ask you to go check your sources. Hell there's a neato timeline right on this forum. Go look it up, I'll wait.

My bad.

Well, it's not your fault that stupidity gives me headaches.

Calm it down, Fairheartstrife. I won't allow you to treat me with offense like this.

Sweetie, I am as civil as you're gonna see me. Exceedingly so, actually.

You say this in a calm and serious manner to me, and you state in which points you disagree and why.

I am calm. The LTD doesn't rile me up. I curse. A lot. If that offends your delicate sensibilities, well, then that's on you.

If I don't show any offense to you, then you are expected not to do so as well.

Calling baseless argument shit offends you? Okay, well, then back it up with some factual evidence and I'll retract the statement.

Good point, I agree.
However, I think it was stated somewhere that CoL was narrated by Aerith and Sephiroth.

Nope. You'd be wrong.

Also, Aerith is the only woman stated
* to be a Cetra

Ilfana

* to be a possible love interest to Cloud

Jessie.

* to know Sephiroth from face to face

Anyone he may have come into contact with through Shin-ra, including Ilfana

But since I currently don't have a quote saying that CoL:W was narrated by Aerith, I agree with you.

There isn't one, but it's good you concede the point.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm gonna just ignore everything that's not directed at me here, partly because I want others to have their say to what's directed at them, and partly because I just lack the patience to deal with this entire mess.

Did I say it was romance?
So, again - do you have something to prove it?

Ok, its been a bit since your last post and I spent some time replying to Anastar and ClerithRaven, so I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to here.

Ahh.
So Cloud himself is beaten by them and still expects Tifa to face an opponent who he lost to himself?

That makes little sense in the context I present my statement. I said that Tifa, the super-humanly strong and fast, extremely talented martial artist might WANT or even DEMAND to stand with Cloud and fight them. And that, as such, not telling her about it might be a means of protecting her from a group of enemies Cloud, the super-humanly strong and fast SWORDSMAN, lost a fight too. I never said anything about him expecting Tifa to be able to face them, I said he might not even want her to try.

We know how it ended: Tifa lost to only one of the guys without the motorcycle thingie. I guess Cloud didn't expect that...?

Read my above paragraph. It makes this line even less sensible than it was when it was all together.

Yes, and this is stated to be one of the reasons he left.
However, with the appearance of the silverhaired gang, they are a new constant in the equation, and this changes the situation since there are violent people running around to attack him without any reason he knows of. So it's your opinion that Cloud would leave his family in unawareness of this information to protect them?

I didn't say it was the right thing to do. I've argued for a long time now that Cloud does damn near everything wrong, right up until the end of AC/C. He runs away when he should lean on his family. He lets the past eat away at him with no support. He hurts people he cares about and makes them doubt, however temporarily, that he considers them family at all. And yes, failing to immediately call Tifa, whom he had no reason to suspect was in any danger, and warn her he was attacked by the SHM falls into that too. But he does these things anyway. He ran away so he didn't add to their burden, among other reasons. Maybe he didn't want to give the SHM a reason to trace him back home and add a REAL mess to their burden. Maybe it was all about his Geostigma. And maybe, just maybe, he was afraid Tifa would come charging in to beat up the people who attacked him and get hurt or even die. And considering one of his big hangups during this time is the girl he was supposed to protect dying, I can definitely see that.

Okay, she doesn't trample, but she walks over them. You might like a reference picture, hmm? You shall have one.
http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/marlenestampsupehy3i8fb.jpg

She's clearly walking between the rows and patches of flowers, setting her feet on empty soil. Not on flowers. So she doesn't walk on the flowers, she walks among them. I admit I called it wrong when I said she stopped at the edge of the flower bed, but I wasn't too far off either.

Ahh. You thought I would claim that as well.

I thought it a possibility, though I did not expect it per se. But, whether you call them a symbol of Aerith or just acknowledge that they were hers and she loved them, Cloud stomps all over those things in his hurry to get to Tifa.

Again, what did I say?
Did I say that he is never present?
No.

And, I point out, while I did put the word never on there, I did also include your own choice of word, barely. Now, I think we were discussing different periods of time, in a way. In the time between the ending of CoT and the ending of AC/C, he literally is NEVER home. When he first began his business as a delivery boy, he was home LESS than he had been before. Those seem, from portions of the rest of the post I did not choose to reply to, to be the times you're referring to. What I'm referring to is the time in between. The happier times, before he lets his issues and then his Geostigma drive him out of his home and away from his family. The times where he was taking fewer deliveries and making SURE he got home to spend time with Tifa and the kids. At those times, he's home plenty. Surely as much as a working day can be. Given that he returns home after AC/C, cured, over his guilt, and able to be happy again, sense would lead one to conclude he's back to this sort of schedule again. And the day off he wants to take off from delivering would fit into that conclusion as well.


I said that he is not very often there, therefore barely present.

Do you mean Barret meaning that Marlene is better off at the Seventh Heaven the time he isn't there or that Marlene should have Cloud and Tifa as her new parents?

Myself, I think he means "while he isn't there." Now, there are some quotes above I had forgotten, like references to Barret now having a place of his own, that conflict with that. But, my initial conclusion was that he left her with them while he was out atoning for his mistakes, which eventually took the form of hunting for new energy resources. But again, one oil field, no matter how huge, cannot on its own support an entire planet's needs. And notice in AC/C, his message to Cloud says "he has staked his claim, so he'll be heading back to see Marlene and to tell her that." Not to get Marlene. Just to see her. That says to me that either he isn't done yet, or Marlene is just gonna stay there for the rest of her childhood. But whichever it is, Marlene is part of THE family, as per several references that have been cited. Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene.

I'll edit this post later!

You do that, I'm probably not gonna edit my reply to match though

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I'm not arguing her side, I'm clarifying something for you that she said that you didn't see for whatever reason. If you can't SEE that she doesn't see either side as canon, and address her as if she said something she didn't say, then I don't know what the point is of you talking to her anyway. I thought you might actually listen to me since you obviously aren't listening to her.

So how about you stop getting all pissy over a lil debate? Kay?

Q, I'm not pissy. I'm being pretty mellow actually, so pull your panties out of your crack. And how can I listen to her when she's not responded to anything of relevance.

Here, let me walk you to my point as it seems to be out of your reach: I have seen her and other Cleriths argue that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Based on what? Oh, yes, Aerith's comments on the date. If you remove HA/LA as canon material, you can't use the date--in any fashion, including bringing up context therein. THAT is my point. I don't give a shit if she thinks the dates are canon. They can all be or none of them, but you can't argue for the removal of context from one "non-canon" scenario while using an other to try and build up your shoddy pairing.

You seem to have mistaken "arguing her point" with "straightening out what she actually said."

Same for you. I SAID if you claim that the HA scene as non-canon and use that to discredit a canon outcome, you can't use a situation from an equally non-canon situation to validate your position. The date itself is irrelevant, but the conversation between Aerith and Cloud is used OFTEN by Cleriths to validate their position that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Remove one, remove them all.

I said I disagree with her, but you're accusing her of saying things she didn't actually say, and IMO, that is my concern. I'd do the same for you and I've done the same for the others before too.

I didn't accuse her of anything, Q. Please show me where I accused her of saying the dates were canon?

I've seen them all--including her--argue that Aerith knew the REAL Cloud and the ONLY instance where that is even inferred is where...oh, yes, the date. Again, not giving a flying fuck if the dates are canon or not, or if she sees them that way.

And THIS is what I said (and I never accused ANYONE specifically):

The Highwind scene options only change Tifa's affection level. NOT Cloud's. So even if you (in-game) decide the low affection is your head-canon, that doesn't negate the fact that Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa (and her huge boobs). So despite that white-knuckle wish on shippers' part, even if you concede it as optional, it doesn't change Cloud's affections, and still, therefore, doesn't allow wiggle room for a Clerith romance either. Also, if the HA version is 'optional' and not canon (which , really?? we're still arguing that?) Then Aerith's date NEVER occurs. Even as an optional outcome, since there are numerous options there, then anyone playing the game can always make Barret canon. Always Yuffie. Never Tifa. Never Aerith, if they so choose, and therefore, doing so nullify's her date. All dates, actually, and the Golden Saucer date-night is removed from canon. Which, hey, that works for me, as it doesn't really effect the overall narrative. So, from now on, anyone that argues the LA/HA versions are optional canon can't use the Cloud/Aerith date (or anything said on it) as a support pillar for their shipping argument. Otherwise they are at the height of hypocrisy and really, can't be taken seriously.

Time to dismount, Q. Your horse is tired.

 

[Dashell]

Q, I'm not pissy. I'm being pretty mellow actually, so pull your panties out of your crack. And how can I listen to her when she's not responded to anything of relevance.

You leave my panties out of this

Here, let me walk you to my point as it seems to be out of your reach: I have seen her and other Cleriths argue that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Based on what? Oh, yes, Aerith's comments on the date. If you remove HA/LA as canon material, you can't use the date--in any fashion, including bringing up context therein. THAT is my point. I don't give a shit if she thinks the dates are canon. They can all be or none of them, but you can't argue for the removal of context from one "non-canon" scenario while using an other to try and build up your shoddy pairing.

Ah well, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying here then:

Also, if the HA version is 'optional' and not canon (which , really?? we're still arguing that?) Then Aerith's date NEVER occurs. Even as an optional outcome, since there are numerous options there, then anyone playing the game can always make Barret canon. Always Yuffie. Never Tifa. Never Aerith, if they so choose, and therefore, doing so nullify's her date. All dates, actually, and the Golden Saucer date-night is removed from canon. Which, hey, that works for me, as it doesn't really effect the overall narrative. So, from now on, anyone that argues the LA/HA versions are optional canon can't use the Cloud/Aerith date (or anything said on it) as a support pillar for their shipping argument.

I thought you meant they can't say Aerith's date is canon, as if she said that, but I see what you're saying now.

Same for you. I SAID if you claim that the HA scene as non-canon and use that to discredit a canon outcome, you can't use a situation from an equally non-canon situation to validate your position. The date itself is irrelevant, but the conversation between Aerith and Cloud is used OFTEN by Cleriths to validate their position that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Remove one, remove them all.

I get you now, my bad.

I didn't accuse her of anything, Q. Please show me where I accused her of saying the dates were canon?

See above.

Time to dismount, Q. Your horse is tired.

k
(his name is Steve BTW )

 

[Fairheartstrife]

You leave my panties out of this


Ah well, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying here then:


I thought you meant they can't say Aerith's date is canon, as if she said that, but I see what you're saying now.


I get you now, my bad.


See above.


k

<3 <3 <3 **snuggles** <3 <3 <3

Missed you, Q!