Right. I'm bored with Anastar apparently deciding not to respond to any of my points and CR not yet finished with her response to me (If I've missed you, apologies), so I'm butting in on several other people's arguments. Here goes.
To what time do you refer to?
At the beginning, he spends his days at the bar.
When he opens his delivery service, Tifa states that he is "spending less time at home" because he is travelling all around the globe.
And after the conversation with Tifa, he leaves completely. So how long is he gone?
You missed the point in there where he makes sure to be home early every day so he can spend more time with the kids.
I'm not sure if it's stated somewhere, but we know it's between a few weeks and a few months. At least Tifa has given up to reach him on the phone, making it seem more like months than days.
Tifa is still calling his phone to pass messages along. His time living away from Tifa and the kids is described as brief.
However, this doesn't matter since I referred to the time when he opened his delivery service.
He is only present in the morning and the evening. So he could only see the kids in this time. Not the best time to raise your children, isn't it?
Dude. You just shit on every parent who ever had a nine to five job.
In the OG, on her date, she will express the desire to get to know the real Cloud.
If we include Maiden, she will express joy at finally getting to know the real Cloud.
If someone loved a wrong idea of Cloud, then it was Tifa in her childhood where she wanted to satisfy her desire to be a "little princess" by being saved by a hero.
How's that a wrong idea of Cloud? Cloud wanted to be the hero just as much as she wanted one. And he is a Hero.
So, again, were is it said that Aerith only loves her idea of Cloud? It seems that you said that without any reference to the game.
"Why do you think that?"
"Yeah, well, because I think so though it was hinted nowhere."
Aerith initially falls for Cloud because of her feelings for Zack. Just prior to her death, she expresses a desire to get to meet the real Cloud. This would be pointless if she already knew him.
I have to disagree with you.
"Back in these days, Tifa did hardly notice Cloud. The reason why she asked him "to be saved by a hero" was to satisfy her childish princess desire."
"Though Cloud held feelings for Tifa in the past, her interest into him did not begin until the time where the promise was exchanged."
Also, in a flashback scene, it is clearly stated that Tifa didn't only ignore Cloud but didn't even allow him to enter her room when all her other friends did.
So say again that Tifa didn't avoid or ignore him.
That's exactly the opposite of how those scenes play out. One of Tifa's friends sees him, asks TIFA if he should be let in, and he's LET IN. As for your second quote, the interest is contextually related to Cloud's feelings. Though Cloud was crushing on Tifa for a long time, she didn't return the interest until later.
However, it's not mentioned that they did. Considering the fact that they never had a conversation before, I think it's rather plausible.
You just made this up, whole cloth.
I think you're confusing something here. Tifa didn't knew about any mako poisoning or something like that. She recognized him from her childhood, yes, but that was all. She also needed a rather long time to realize that he holds memories inside his mind he shouldn't remember. And even then, Tifa is unsure if she is just confusing things.
So, does she know him that well? Find the answer for yourself because it doesn't seem that way.
Yes, Tifa doesn't know that Cloud has someone else's memories until WELL AFTER she has determined he is not acting quite like Cloud. Without knowledge of Mako poisoning, or knowing he's putting himself in someone else's memories, or magic powers, she knows something is off with him and wants to keep a closer eye on him.
Wrong. Cloud and Tifa did encounter a few days before the mission starts.
...
One, citation please.
Two, You realize this defeats your immediate preceding argument? Tifa knows in a span of mere days that something's not right with Cloud, since she offers him the job with AVALANCHE after she realize things are not right with Mr. Strife.
Calm it down, Fairheartstrife. I won't allow you to treat me with offense like this.
You say this in a calm and serious manner to me, and you state in which points you disagree and why.
If I don't show any offense to you, then you are expected not to do so as well.
You are showing a flagrant disrespect by inventing things whole cloth.
Good point, I agree.
However, I think it was stated somewhere that CoL was narrated by Aerith and Sephiroth.
No. Never.
Also, Aerith is the only woman stated
* to be a Cetra
* to be a possible love interest to Cloud
* to know Sephiroth from face to face
But since I currently don't have a quote saying that CoL:W was narrated by Aerith, I agree with you.
The woman is never declared to be a love interest to Cloud, or recognize Sephiroth. Cloud is someone SHE loved, and it is the man she knows, not Sephiroth.
Yes, it's patently absurd to declare we can't know that COLW and COLB weren't narrated by A and S. But that's what you're doing here, LL.
I have my own views about this scene; if it's not stated by any of the creators, then I guess I can't say it's true.
You have just declared the entire concept of literary analysis impossible. Good job.
I think she can, but it's unlikely since Zacks is never mentioned in the context of love with her.
He is, actually. He's called her first love and first boyfriend several times. Her feelings for Zack are why she falls for ZaCloud.
I thought you all read the novellas and already knew what was written in them.
Tifa says that Cloud, having started his delivery service, is barely at home. So I think it's clear where I got it from, right?
If it's clear where you got it from, then you'll be so kind as to either provide evidence or never demand it from anyone else ever again. A hint: Doing that last one is a bad idea. Provide evidence.
It wasn't said "shell". It was said "essence", a synonym to "entity" or "being". So if she has seen through Clouds "entity" or "being", this isn't comparable to just see through Clouds "shell" since the context changes.
So, if Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud, she didn't get a good look, because she still needs to get to know him, by her own admission. His heart is still closed to her- by her own admission. Cloud opened his heart only for another, according to the Prologue book for AC.
I think you have a different view of the pre-Cloud and the real Cloud.
The pre-Cloud remains the same in personality as the real Cloud; however, his motions, memories, and habits are changed to be more like Zacks. So Cloud does only change his persona, not his personality. You can easily tell by comparing Clouds and Zacks personalities.
Faux!Cloud and Real Cloud are just as unalike as Faux!Cloud and Zack. He's a composite entity.
Interesting distinction you make there. Pray tell, what effective difference is there between the persona and personality?
So what does Aerith mean? Obviously that she wants to get to know the real Cloud without his fantasy persona.
So she doesn't know the real Cloud. Glad we got that settled.
Tifa helps him because she loves him.
And in which sense does she help?
She helps him regain his original memories and persona. Since she is the only one who knew that he was present in Nibelheim.
No, that's not the reason why she can help. The reason why she can help is because she's the only one Cloud will allow inside. The person whom he trusts in him even when he doesn't.
Wait.
We just clarified that she loves Cloud at the time after FFVII. Let's keep that in mind.
So. We know that she once fell in love with Zacks. How do we know that this ended?
Because she says so.
She says that she won't write him any more letters. She says to Cloud that her relationship with Zacks wasn't a serious one and that he was "good for a while". This doesn't mean that he doesn't hold a place in her heart but that she stopped loving him romantically - especially when he isn't mentioned to have any romantical bond left with her or vice versa. Additionally, one could say that she says that she doesn't love Zacks any longer in Maiden, but it's still in debate if it's canon or not.
The letters don't say she's stopped loving him, just that this is her last letter and she hopes it reaches him. Aerith's words in FF7 must be compared with what her mother says about how she'd been very hurt emotionally by a SOLDIER in the past and what the creators have said about her feelings for Zack being why she falls for Cloud.
And like I said before, you don't know that unless it was stated.
An asinine and self defeating viewpoint. Agnosticism mixed with authoritarianism. Cloud uses the sword as a grave marker for Zack. His memory of Zack includes Buster. He actually talks to the sword when apologizing to Zack for failing at his promise to live for both of them.
I doubt that he's got his own home. If he were there, he would have either taken Marlene with him or he had returned to be with her in the Seventh Heaven.
Maybe he means that Barret is currently present there because of his work?
I will look that up.
Barret has lived entirely away from the Marlene for two years as of AC/C. He didn't take Marlene because he needed to better himself as a person and help to make the world right for her, so he left her in more capable hands. He lives elsewhere, searching for Oil and working with Cid to make rocket fuel and other energy sources.
Someone tell June that Ward is a neglectful father.
Agreed, he does this.
However, she leaves completely later, so the current situation after AC remains unknown.
He resumes living with Tifa and the kids and even refuses jobs to spend more time with the family.
Agreed and disagreed.
Cloud says he wants Tifa to deny his jobs and to close the bar.
He doesn't say why. The "he-wants-to-spend-time-with-his-family"-part was completely interpretation though I would appreciate this to be real.
Given that being with his family makes Cloud happy, it's a very small step from 'tell Tifa to close the bar' to 'spend time with family.'
Indeed, at the time of CoT and AC, he is barely at home.
Untrue. He is OFTEN at home during the end of CoT, and while he's away from home during most of AC, this is a short deviation from the norm.
This is not true. I claimed that someone elses argument is baseless since there is nothing to refer to.
This doesn't mean that my claim is baseless.
It does if your claim can be dismissed on the same grounds.
I don't know, maybe... the game?
That narrows things down. BE SPECIFIC.
Wait. Wasn't he writing her a letter? He did say that he thought Tifa wouldn't come because he thought she hated him.
Where did you get that he wrote her a letter from?
Also, other boys were writing her letters to come with them to the tower. So you don't know if they talked since it was highly implied that he did only write her a letter.
Where are you getting letters from? Even with the 'everyone was asking her out,' there's still not letters involved.
Well, then Tifa is - in your opinion - a moron. Well, after the promise, she fell in love with said "bully", so I think she would be of other opinion.
Someone of dreams to be a hero is who she fell in love with. Incidentally, you've taken what was presented arguendo and assumed it as held position.
The CCU, for starters.
You might tell me where you got that from?
Cloud has spent at the bare minimum a week in sector 7. However, it's probably more.
Zack dies in September. Cloud isn't in the best state. He's found in the trainyard, still in the same state. Given his status and his needing to eat, it can't be much more than a couple of days from Zack's death to Cloud being found.
The game begins December 9th. Not only are weeks in there, months are as well.
I wonder where this was stated.
Um, literally, Cloud's very core of self is fixated on memories relating to Tifa.
So, if you compare, then there are major differences.
* First, you don't know who would take the place of Rachel and of Celes. Rachel was Lockes first love and Celes his second. However, Tifa was Clouds first love and Aerith would be his second. (And to remind you: this would also equal Aeriths affection for Cloud since Zacks was her first love and Cloud her second). So, Locke went from his first to his second love. This would mean for Cloud to switch on from Tifa to Aerith and for Aerith to switch on from Zacks to Cloud (this would also be applicable for Rinoa since she switched from Seifer to Squall). However, Rachel dies and Locke begins to fall in love with Celes who lives. In this case, Aerith would take the role of Rachel and Tifa the role of Celes. However, Locke refuses to let go of Rachel until she asks him to love Celes with all his heart as he loved her. This makes a major difference since neither Tifa nor Aerith did something like that.
So, let's go with Ingus and Sarah, or Cecil and Rosa. Both first loves that got realized. Both with childhood friends, too.
Or we can go with Squall's first love. Or Dagger's first love. Or any other number of criteria.
However, the word "beloved" was translated into a word that is only used to describe romance. And like I said before, nothing about Zack and Aeirth is stated after the time of FFVII.
Does it need to be? Her feelings for Zack were part of why she falls for Cloud.
And 'beloved' just means that the object of the sentence is loved by the subject of the sentence.
Actually, quite a few hilariously creepy dudes and ladies in fiction have refered to people as 'my beloved' when said person didn't even know they existed.
Okay, then give me quotes where it's said that Aerith doesn't love Cloud at the time after FFVII or where it's said that she still loves Zacks at the time after FFVII since your quotes flatout say that.
This sounds suspiciously like a goalpost shift.
"It seemed like he just wanted to make her believe that everything was alright. An expression of a gentle personality - or did she misunderstand that?"
That is NOT what I see in CoT. Whar be you getting this from?
There is evidence that she continued to love him, not that they had a relationship at the time of his death. I'm sorry for not clearing that up before.
That's a materially different claim, though, and cannot be used to support the idea of romance between living and dead.
You didn't read my post properly. I am currently talking about Aerith trying to reunite with Cloud at the time between FFVII and AC/C since that was questioned.
However, she waits for Cloud at the end of the road filmed in Hawaii, so maybe you could say that she wants to say Hi to him again. However, I'm not sure if you can say it this way.
Err, she's not at the 'end of the road.' She's off somewhere in a field and probably watches Cloud go by. And that's not in ACC, anyways.
Yes, since it was said that Tifa ignored him until the promise.
This was the first and only time they talked together since there is no conversation shown after that.
No, it says she didn't take interest or 'notice of' Cloud until then. These are both quite different from ignoring him, especially since in both cases, the implication is that this is when her romance for him begins, not her strict awareness.
Not in the english ACC.
However, she does in AC and - as far as I know - in the japanese version of ACC.
Nein. Not in JP either. I've got that one.
Ahh.
So Cloud himself is beaten by them and still expects Tifa to face an opponent who he lost to himself? We know how it ended: Tifa lost to only one of the guys without the motorcycle thingie. I guess Cloud didn't expect that...?
Expected to? No, Cloud DIDN'T expect Tifa to face them. GLD is saying Cloud wanting to leave them out of things for their own safety would be a good thing.
Yes, and this is stated to be one of the reasons he left.
However, with the appearance of the silverhaired gang, they are a new constant in the equation, and this changes the situation since there are violent people running around to attack him without any reason he knows of. So it's your opinion that Cloud would leave his family in unawareness of this information to protect them?
Cloud certainly shouldn't head to his family when HE SPECIFICALLY is being targeted as far as he knows. That would get them in danger. Danger they got into anyways, but still.
Okay, she doesn't trample, but she walks over them. You might like a reference picture, hmm? You shall have one.
http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/marlenestampsupehy3i8fb.jpg
A: She was playing in them and rushing to safety at Tifa's hem.
B: No one's claiming Aerith and her flowers are of utmost importance to Marlene. The same is said about Cloud on a few occasions.
Ahh. You thought I would claim that as well.
Consider it forestalling such argument, just in case. It comes up more often than one might think.
Again, what did I say?
Did I say that he is never present?
No.
I said that he is not very often there, therefore barely present.
But this is contrary to the facts. He is there most nights, and for a significant period, he makes an effort to be home early enough to spend time with the kids. Post AC/C, he declines offers for work to spend more time with the family.
Do you mean Barret meaning that Marlene is better off at the Seventh Heaven the time he isn't there or that Marlene should have Cloud and Tifa as her new parents?
He thinks she's better off living with Cloud and Tifa than raising her himself because in his estimation, he's not a fit person to raise her directly, not until he's changed himself around and proven that he can be a productive member of society, building it, not tearing it down. He's left her with Cloud and Tifa so they can do what he feels he can't. Consider it like being taken care of by an aunt and uncle. Your parents are still your parents, but you're part of the aunt and uncle's family unit now.