Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
@Octo: If you let Aerith go with the Don, Tifa goes out to meet Cloud in the lobby of the mansion. Going back to the room where she was reveals that she somehow managed to tie the guy to a table...
I have three basic points about DoC:
1. Cloti's always come up with excuses for why SE didn't show an undeniable romantic moment between Cloud and Tifa in AC. But with Cloud finally resolving his guilt at the end of AC, DoC would have been the perfect opportunity to show Cloud and Tifa as a romantic couple. Even if only very briefly.
Given that SE highlighted Cid and Shera's marriage in DoC, don't attempt to say it would have been inappropriate to show or convey (in some form) that Cloud and Tifa are a romantic couple. Perhaps the reason SE didn't highlight Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship is because...they don't have one. Just a thought.
2. Aerith's description in the game manual reflects Cloud's *CURRENT* feelings towards her: Aerith is someone Cloud will *NEVER* forget. So not only does Aerith's description reflect Cloud's *CURRENT* feelings for her, but it makes sense that the DoC descriptions would likely reflect the time period DoC takes place in. Given both of these reasons, why is Tifa simply refereed to as Cloud's, "childhood friend"?
3. Barret is in every scene Cloud and Tifa appear in. It seems as though a year after AC, all three of them are finally co-habiting together in the family they formed together.
Furthermore, the description of Tifa in the DoC game manual describes Tifa as Cloud's, "childhood friend". Nothing more, nothing less. Since DoC takes place 1 year after AC, wouldn't it make sense that the description should reflect Cloud and Tifa's current relationship? Not only does DoC take place 1 year after AC (so the descriptions should reflect that) but Aerith's description reflects Cloud's current relationship/status with Aerith: she is someone who he will never forget. They don't list Aerith as someone Cloud agreed to protect, or an ally. They list Cloud's current relationship/feelings towards Aerith. Therefore, it only makes sense that Cloud and Tifa are, during the time period of DoC, nothing more than "childhood friends" according to the game manual.
Nooooo, see I'm going to have to disagree with this. Aerith can take care of herself. Think about how long the Turks have been chasing her... yet she never was captured. Think about her going to the church all the time and all the monsters she had to fight on her own. Maybe she's not AS physically strong as Tifa, but she can handle herself just fine.
To Hawk, Strangelove, and Quex:
Some Cloti's justify the lack of romance between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children by saying Cloud was struggling with his guilt and that him and Tifa were going through a rough patch (like all couples do). But my question is very simple: when will we see unequivocal evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa?
DoC takes place one year after Cloud relives himself of his guilt. So with Cloud's guilt gone, wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity to show Cloud and Tifa as an established romantic couple? Even if just for a moment or two? Why did SE decide to mention Cid's marriage to Shera in DoC, but nothing about Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship? This seems awfully odd and strange that SE would mention Cid's romantic with Shera, but nothing about Cloud and Tifa's romance.
BlankBeat said:Furthermore, the description of Tifa in the DoC game manual describes Tifa as Cloud's, "childhood friend". Nothing more, nothing less. Since DoC takes place 1 year after AC, wouldn't it make sense that the description should reflect Cloud and Tifa's current relationship? Not only does DoC take place 1 year after AC (so the descriptions should reflect that) but Aerith's description reflects Cloud's current relationship/status with Aerith: she is someone who he will never forget. They don't list Aerith as someone Cloud agreed to protect, or an ally. They list Cloud's current relationship/feelings towards Aerith. Therefore, it only makes sense that Cloud and Tifa are, during the time period of DoC, nothing more than "childhood friends" according to the game manual.
BlankBeat said:Cloud's childhood memories with Tifa gives her an advantage over Aerith. Cloud and Tifa have known each other longer, and most people have a little something special for their first crush. Nostalgia is very powerful. So the point I'm trying to make is this: Cloud not having all of his childhood memories at the beginning of Final Fantasy VII doesn't put Tifa at a disadvantage, it simply removes her advantage and puts her in the same position as Aerith.
In other words, Tifa's advantage over Aerith is something Aerith can *NEVER* achieve because Aerith did not grow up with Cloud. So it's not that Tifa is at a disadvantage when Cloud doesn't have all his memories, rather, Tifa's advantage over Aerith is erased and they are both put in the same position. And it becomes clear that when Aerith and Tifa are both on the same level, Cloud prefers Aerith.
Some might consider this a negative for the Clerith ship, but an interesting question to think about is: would Cloud and Aerith have formed such a strong romantic bond if Cloud had his memories associated with Tifa? Would Cloud's memories have prevented him and Aerith from forming a "special bond"? Maybe Cloud's lack of memories is what allowed him and Aerith to become so close so quickly -- Cloud wasn't held back by his nostalgic feelings of the past.
And although Cloud eventually regains his memories, it's after he had already developed a "special bond" with Aerith. A bond, that despite Cloud not possessing all of his memories, was real and genuine.
Cloti's argue that if Cloud had all of his memories associated with Tifa, he might not have preferred Aerith during disc 1. Cloti's also argue that once Cloud regained all of his memories, it's clear that Aerith was just a phase during a time Cloud when didn't posses all of his memories of love for Tifa. But the bond between him and Aerith was already created. The deed was done. Him and Aerith formed a romantic bond despite Cloud not having all of his memories, which is why Cloud and Tifa's relationship remains complicated even after Aerith's death and even after he regains all of his memories.
BlankBeat said:If Cloud had been alone and was told Don's not into men, would Cloud have still attempted to rescue Tifa? Maybe. Maybe not.
Let me ask you this: if Cloud was always planning on rescuing Tifa despite being told Don's not into men, why does Cloud say, "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
The phrasing of Cloud's words suggest that if Aerith hadn't decided to go in alone, and that if her safety wasn't at risk, Cloud may have simply walked away. Cloud saying, "Oh, man......" tells us that he really didn't want to think of a way in, but that because Aerith was going to go alone, he had to figure out a way in so she didn't have to go by herself.
BlankBeat said:This scene doesn't say that Cloud doesn't care for Tifa at all ...
Aeris can't do shit if someone overpowers her and...I dunno, tries to rape her at Don's?
Of course she can; she knows MAGIC, right? She could use a regen spell on his penis.
..Oh.
Mini or Toad surely. Or Mini AND Toad
Wait, what were we talking about?
some pretty bad sti's by the sounds of thingsMini or Toad surely. Or Mini AND Toad
Wait, what were we talking about?
I am agog! I am aghast!Kinda shows that BB...you're only picking up on parts in that script that suit you which you shouldn't do because if you look at this part of the script as a whole it explains why he shows concern when Aerith get's herself involved
BlankBeat said:Although Cid plays a larger role than Cloud and Tifa, it would have taken minimal effort on SE's part to show Cloud and Tifa romantically in DoC.
Although Cid plays a larger role than Cloud and Tifa, it would have taken minimal effort on SE's part to show Cloud and Tifa romantically in DoC. If SE was able to include Cid's romance in DoC, there is no reason SE couldn't have highlighted Cloud and Tifa's romance, too -- even if it was as simple as a minor embrace, kiss, etc.It doesn't seem strange at all given that Cid has a much larger role in DC than Cloud and Tifa combined. Between the two of them, they speak two dozen lines in the entire game, some being only one or two words.
I'm not exaggerating, by the way. If you go count them up, that's all the lines they have, most of which take place during a short phone conversation in which they discuss Vincent infiltrating Deepground.
The pattern I'm trying to point out is that Tifa is never stated to be anything more than Cloud's "childhood friend." I've seen Aerith be referenced as someone Cloud will never forget, someone Cloud agreed to protect, or as someone Cloud feels extreme guilt towards.IThe same section of the game manual that is entitled "Story of Final Fantasy VII" and refers to Cloud as an ex-SOLDIER (Japanese and English versions)?:
http://i.imgur.com/5x8YePT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KsgEUGI.jpg
Now, how could I have overlooked such an indispensable tome of endgame and post-game information?
Thank you.Okay, I see the point you're making here. I get it. I really do. Honestly, I'm surprised that you would be the one to bring up such a thing, but I agree with what you're saying.
The reason I focus on how Cloud acted while both Aerith and Tifa were alive is because that is the only time we can compare how Cloud acts when he has the choice between the two.I just consider it pretty weak-ass to only focus on how Cloud acted toward Tifa when he wasn't entirely himself. Even if you argue that he seemed to put Aerith before anyone else while she was alive, you would have to concede that Tifa is his clear priority after Aerith has exited the stage, and particularly once he has regained his memories.
In a sense, yes, Cloud's situation on Disc 1 puts both women on an even level. I see what you're saying. But it doesn't put them on even footing with Cloud. Rather, it puts them on even footing with Composite Cloud, who is a mixture of various personalities and influences.
The real Cloud is watching everything, experiencing everything, trying to influence things when he can -- but he's not the one actually interacting with the women.
It's peculiar to me when fans discussing the LTD focus so much on Composite Cloud's time in the driver seat rather than endgame Cloud, when he's finally himself and is the person he will be after the game. I get that it's important to look at that time period since it was the only time Cloud was around both women, but you have to consider that this was all done deliberately as part of leaving Cloud in a wounded state emotionally and leaving fans with questions of how he would act around Tifa and Aerith once he has all his memories of the former and has had to integrate into himself Composite Cloud's feelings for the latter.
For Cloud, Aerith and the player, there's really no moment where all the cards are ever on the table, and this leaves mysteries for everyone. The player, Aerith and Cloud himself. Tifa too. She has to wonder if Cloud would still be with her if Aerith hadn't died.
That's the story they set out to tell, though. We will never know what would have happened had Cloud had his memories of Tifa when he first met Aerith, nor will we know how he would have responded to the two women if they had both been alive when he had recovered his memories.
For all we know, he may have chosen to live with both of them.
Tifa is essential to him, but Aerith certainly fulfills his instinct to be protective better than Tifa. Perhaps he couldn't have done without either of them, the same way I can't do without my wife or my girlfriend. They both fulfill different emotional needs for me. My wife is a partner who has stood by me through all our hardships and whom I can't see my life without while my girlfriend is a source of more carefree joys and allows me to live out my own protective, nurturing side and I can't see my life without her either.
We'll just never know. I don't understand why it's so important to you to focus on these things we can't ever know instead of just looking at what we do know: Cloud has chosen to spend his life with Tifa and will also cherish Aerith -- another woman he loved -- for the rest of his life. It's simple, doesn't require dissecting quotes and doesn't involve diminishing either woman's importance to him. And that's the story of Cloud Strife's life after FFVII.
Honestly, I feel bad when I insult you because you are intellgient and every once in a while in this sea of dung, you'll actually make a really valuable observation and we can have a civil, honest, intelligent exchange. I just get pissed off when you either suggest I'm divorcing a quote from its surrounding context or when I know you know better than the outrageous suggestions you posit (e.g. Cloud not caring about Tifa's well-being in Wall Market).
I don't understand your need to do those things. Tifa loved Aerith. In The Kids Are Alright, she says that Aerith was more than a friend, she was family. Aerith loved Tifa. She entrusted her feelings for Cloud to Tifa, asked her to take care of him and wanted them to be together. And Cloud loved both of them.
Why does it have to be more complicated than that?
Aerith herself wanted her best friend and the guy they were both in love with to be together after she died. I mean, look at that. That's beautiful. That is really beautiful.
But all these suggestions you bring up turn Cloud into a manipulative douchebag, Aerith into a selfish bitch and Tifa into a pathetic, clingy doormat.
I don't understand how someone so clearly invested in these characters and their story can revel in and prefer them like that. That isn't who they are. Just let them be who they are. Don't turn the story into something it isn't.
I'm not convinced that if Cloud had been alone, he would have entered Don's mansion after being told Don wasn't interested in men."Oh, man......" tells us that he was frustrated. The very next words out of his mouth are still about making sure Tifa's okay. He never abandoned that objective. He was just running into roadblocks ("The Don's not into men") and options he wasn't comfortable with (Aerith going in alone or endangering Tifa by creating a commotion).
Given that this is the LTD thread, what I'm showing is that while both Aerith and Tifa were alive, this is yet another example where Cloud is quicker to show concern for Aerith than Tifa.Then what are we disagreeing about so passionately? I don't care if someone thinks he was quicker to show concern for Aerith in this situation, or even if he was. He was clearly concerned about them both, perhaps for different reasons, and that's what matters here. That's the only thing we were ever discussing as far as I knew.
Although Cid plays a larger role than Cloud and Tifa, it would have taken minimal effort on SE's part to show Cloud and Tifa romantically in DoC. If SE was able to include Cid's romance in DoC, there is no reason SE couldn't have highlighted Cloud and Tifa's romance, too -- even if it was as simple as a minor embrace, kiss, etc.
What I'm saying is that if SE is the type of company to include a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in an un-related game such as FFIX, the argument can't be made that it would be inappropriate for them to include a reference to Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship in game that is directly related to FFVII and AC.Maybe because the farthest thing from there mind was the LTD? Whats the point in them reconfirming information that the rest of the compilation clearly spells out?
What I'm saying is that if SE is the type of company to include a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in an un-related game such as FFIX, the argument can't be made that it would be inappropriate for them to include a reference to Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship in game that is directly related to FFVII and AC.
SE has consistently portrayed Cloud and Tifa platonically since the HAHW scene -- and all we hear is excuse after excuse after excuse.
If all you walk away with after each game in the compilation is "I wonder who cloud loves" then I find it hard to believe you either played the games or payed much attention to the narrative.
Ack -- I really don't want this post to get buried.
I have played FFIX, but thanks for attacking my integrity.That cameo is still up in the air and has been noted multiple times in this thread. It could be cloud/aerith and it could be completely other people already established in FF9. Try playing FF9 before copy and pasting stuff from your blogger "fact" sheet.
To *YOU* DoC is a non-issue. We simply have a difference of opinion.DoC is a non point. SE has already spent pretty much all of FF7 itself and several other works establishing Cloti. Whats the point in doing it in a game where they are so absent its hard to even call them supporting cast? The LTD isnt the only romantic subplot in FF7, and I for one am happy they didnt shovel more of the shit down our throats and opted for more spot light on Cid.
Even Hawk agrees that Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa.Also just because I liked saying it