The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Obsidian Fire]

@Octo: If you let Aerith go with the Don, Tifa goes out to meet Cloud in the lobby of the mansion. Going back to the room where she was reveals that she somehow managed to tie the guy to a table...

 

[Ryushikaze]

I have three basic points about DoC:

1. Cloti's always come up with excuses for why SE didn't show an undeniable romantic moment between Cloud and Tifa in AC. But with Cloud finally resolving his guilt at the end of AC, DoC would have been the perfect opportunity to show Cloud and Tifa as a romantic couple. Even if only very briefly.

In the middle of a literal warzone?

Given that SE highlighted Cid and Shera's marriage in DoC, don't attempt to say it would have been inappropriate to show or convey (in some form) that Cloud and Tifa are a romantic couple. Perhaps the reason SE didn't highlight Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship is because...they don't have one. Just a thought.

Or because there's no REASON to highlight it... because it's understood. The noting of Cid and Shera's marriage was to note that their relationship had changed, not that there was one.

2. Aerith's description in the game manual reflects Cloud's *CURRENT* feelings towards her: Aerith is someone Cloud will *NEVER* forget. So not only does Aerith's description reflect Cloud's *CURRENT* feelings for her, but it makes sense that the DoC descriptions would likely reflect the time period DoC takes place in. Given both of these reasons, why is Tifa simply refereed to as Cloud's, "childhood friend"?

It is still discussing FFVII in the manual. It is not concerning itself about what comes after, and no mention of AC's events or really anything after FF7 is mentioned.
Also, Zack is the man Cloud will never forget. Shortstack, you have more Clack evidence.

3. Barret is in every scene Cloud and Tifa appear in. It seems as though a year after AC, all three of them are finally co-habiting together in the family they formed together.

"Every scene" being more accurately described as "the three of them in a war zone." This is still incorrect, as there are scenes we do not see the three of them together in, but I just want to remind you that Cloud and Tifa are seen as part of a War Effort, and that zero goddamn mention of Barret living with them is made. Nor is any mention of Barret living with them mentioned in the framing story for Denzel's story.

Barret living with them wouldn't make them any less of a couple, but seriously, BB, stop lying.

Also, your bit about a 'superficial look' is ironic, given that's all you ever give C/T and you overanalyze the fuck out of entirely irrelevant nonsense to try and find evidence for C/A's non existence romantic relationship.

 

[OniRaitei]

Furthermore, the description of Tifa in the DoC game manual describes Tifa as Cloud's, "childhood friend". Nothing more, nothing less. Since DoC takes place 1 year after AC, wouldn't it make sense that the description should reflect Cloud and Tifa's current relationship? Not only does DoC take place 1 year after AC (so the descriptions should reflect that) but Aerith's description reflects Cloud's current relationship/status with Aerith: she is someone who he will never forget. They don't list Aerith as someone Cloud agreed to protect, or an ally. They list Cloud's current relationship/feelings towards Aerith. Therefore, it only makes sense that Cloud and Tifa are, during the time period of DoC, nothing more than "childhood friends" according to the game manual.

Wow!

As Strangelove said, that entire section of the manual (page 6) is entitled "Story of Final Fantasy VII." The descriptions of the characters are for that time period only. This shouldn't need explaining, but to reinforce my point, you can compare Yuffie's description on page 6 to her description on page 8. Page 8 is "Characters" in Dirge of Cerberus, and the descriptions reflect the time period.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Goodness gracious great balls of fire people!

Every time I look away this thread explodes

Ok, but doesn't the Japanese for then use the kokoro and kare words?

(I might be getting quotes/words mixed up with each other again)

Well I'm well aware that most people here think/know Cloud cares about Aerith, some even in that way, but this is just interesting to me. If it's "Story of FFVII" it can't mean guilt/regret/grief/forgiveness/need to be forgiven can it?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

@Que: Cloud and Tifa are part of a terrorist group. Tifa fights with her fists, has a whole fucking hideout under her bar. She is an actual fighter. They've blown shit up together.

Aeris living in the slums is nothing compared to actively blowing up the government. She can take care of herself in the sense that she grew up in the slums, and hides and evades Shinra on occasion, but she's not a competent trained combatant. To Cloud, she's a flowergirl who needed help escaping from Shinra. He had to act as her bodyguard. He even makes fun of her fighting skills right after he saves her from the Turks the first time.

Aeris can't do shit if someone overpowers her and...I dunno, tries to rape her at Don's?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

There has been so much fail in this thread recently, I fear it may become self-aware and decide to pull a Kefka-esque omnicidal nihilist maniac on us all. Thankfully, Q, hito, Tres, etc have provided enough win to counteract the fail when it rises up to consume us all.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Gym Leader Devil: Oh... it gained sentence a long time ago... how else did it managed to get the current thread title?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nooooo, see I'm going to have to disagree with this. Aerith can take care of herself. Think about how long the Turks have been chasing her... yet she never was captured. Think about her going to the church all the time and all the monsters she had to fight on her own. Maybe she's not AS physically strong as Tifa, but she can handle herself just fine.

The monsters are a good point (she carries that staff for a reason, obviously), but she didn't so much evade the Turks as they just let her be for the most part. Remember from Episode:Shin-Ra, Tseng decided not to take her by force because trying to control Ifalna forcefully led to her death.

He wanted Aerith to come to him on her own and only became desperate enough to take her against her will after she started associating with AVALANCHE. Knowing where she lived, he could have taken her any time before that.

To Hawk, Strangelove, and Quex:

Some Cloti's justify the lack of romance between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children by saying Cloud was struggling with his guilt and that him and Tifa were going through a rough patch (like all couples do). But my question is very simple: when will we see unequivocal evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa?

DoC takes place one year after Cloud relives himself of his guilt. So with Cloud's guilt gone, wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity to show Cloud and Tifa as an established romantic couple? Even if just for a moment or two? Why did SE decide to mention Cid's marriage to Shera in DoC, but nothing about Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship? This seems awfully odd and strange that SE would mention Cid's romantic with Shera, but nothing about Cloud and Tifa's romance.

It doesn't seem strange at all given that Cid has a much larger role in DC than Cloud and Tifa combined. Between the two of them, they speak two dozen lines in the entire game, some being only one or two words.

I'm not exaggerating, by the way. If you go count them up, that's all the lines they have, most of which take place during a short phone conversation in which they discuss Vincent infiltrating Deepground.

Furthermore, the description of Tifa in the DoC game manual describes Tifa as Cloud's, "childhood friend". Nothing more, nothing less. Since DoC takes place 1 year after AC, wouldn't it make sense that the description should reflect Cloud and Tifa's current relationship? Not only does DoC take place 1 year after AC (so the descriptions should reflect that) but Aerith's description reflects Cloud's current relationship/status with Aerith: she is someone who he will never forget. They don't list Aerith as someone Cloud agreed to protect, or an ally. They list Cloud's current relationship/feelings towards Aerith. Therefore, it only makes sense that Cloud and Tifa are, during the time period of DoC, nothing more than "childhood friends" according to the game manual.

The same section of the game manual that is entitled "Story of Final Fantasy VII" and refers to Cloud as an ex-SOLDIER (Japanese and English versions)?:

http://i.imgur.com/5x8YePT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KsgEUGI.jpg

Now, how could I have overlooked such an indispensable tome of endgame and post-game information?

Cloud's childhood memories with Tifa gives her an advantage over Aerith. Cloud and Tifa have known each other longer, and most people have a little something special for their first crush. Nostalgia is very powerful. So the point I'm trying to make is this: Cloud not having all of his childhood memories at the beginning of Final Fantasy VII doesn't put Tifa at a disadvantage, it simply removes her advantage and puts her in the same position as Aerith.

In other words, Tifa's advantage over Aerith is something Aerith can *NEVER* achieve because Aerith did not grow up with Cloud. So it's not that Tifa is at a disadvantage when Cloud doesn't have all his memories, rather, Tifa's advantage over Aerith is erased and they are both put in the same position. And it becomes clear that when Aerith and Tifa are both on the same level, Cloud prefers Aerith.

Some might consider this a negative for the Clerith ship, but an interesting question to think about is: would Cloud and Aerith have formed such a strong romantic bond if Cloud had his memories associated with Tifa? Would Cloud's memories have prevented him and Aerith from forming a "special bond"? Maybe Cloud's lack of memories is what allowed him and Aerith to become so close so quickly -- Cloud wasn't held back by his nostalgic feelings of the past.

And although Cloud eventually regains his memories, it's after he had already developed a "special bond" with Aerith. A bond, that despite Cloud not possessing all of his memories, was real and genuine.

Cloti's argue that if Cloud had all of his memories associated with Tifa, he might not have preferred Aerith during disc 1. Cloti's also argue that once Cloud regained all of his memories, it's clear that Aerith was just a phase during a time Cloud when didn't posses all of his memories of love for Tifa. But the bond between him and Aerith was already created. The deed was done. Him and Aerith formed a romantic bond despite Cloud not having all of his memories, which is why Cloud and Tifa's relationship remains complicated even after Aerith's death and even after he regains all of his memories.

Okay, I see the point you're making here. I get it. I really do. Honestly, I'm surprised that you would be the one to bring up such a thing, but I agree with what you're saying.

I just consider it pretty weak-ass to only focus on how Cloud acted toward Tifa when he wasn't entirely himself. Even if you argue that he seemed to put Aerith before anyone else while she was alive, you would have to concede that Tifa is his clear priority after Aerith has exited the stage, and particularly once he has regained his memories.

In a sense, yes, Cloud's situation on Disc 1 puts both women on an even level. I see what you're saying. But it doesn't put them on even footing with Cloud. Rather, it puts them on even footing with Composite Cloud, who is a mixture of various personalities and influences.

The real Cloud is watching everything, experiencing everything, trying to influence things when he can -- but he's not the one actually interacting with the women.

It's peculiar to me when fans discussing the LTD focus so much on Composite Cloud's time in the driver seat rather than endgame Cloud, when he's finally himself and is the person he will be after the game. I get that it's important to look at that time period since it was the only time Cloud was around both women, but you have to consider that this was all done deliberately as part of leaving Cloud in a wounded state emotionally and leaving fans with questions of how he would act around Tifa and Aerith once he has all his memories of the former and has had to integrate into himself Composite Cloud's feelings for the latter.

For Cloud, Aerith and the player, there's really no moment where all the cards are ever on the table, and this leaves mysteries for everyone. The player, Aerith and Cloud himself. Tifa too. She has to wonder if Cloud would still be with her if Aerith hadn't died.

That's the story they set out to tell, though. We will never know what would have happened had Cloud had his memories of Tifa when he first met Aerith, nor will we know how he would have responded to the two women if they had both been alive when he had recovered his memories.

For all we know, he may have chosen to live with both of them.

Tifa is essential to him, but Aerith certainly fulfills his instinct to be protective better than Tifa. Perhaps he couldn't have done without either of them, the same way I can't do without my wife or my girlfriend. They both fulfill different emotional needs for me. My wife is a partner who has stood by me through all our hardships and whom I can't see my life without while my girlfriend is a source of more carefree joys and allows me to live out my own protective, nurturing side and I can't see my life without her either.

We'll just never know. I don't understand why it's so important to you to focus on these things we can't ever know instead of just looking at what we do know: Cloud has chosen to spend his life with Tifa and will also cherish Aerith -- another woman he loved -- for the rest of his life. It's simple, doesn't require dissecting quotes and doesn't involve diminishing either woman's importance to him. And that's the story of Cloud Strife's life after FFVII.

Honestly, I feel bad when I insult you because you are intellgient and every once in a while in this sea of dung, you'll actually make a really valuable observation and we can have a civil, honest, intelligent exchange. I just get pissed off when you either suggest I'm divorcing a quote from its surrounding context or when I know you know better than the outrageous suggestions you posit (e.g. Cloud not caring about Tifa's well-being in Wall Market).

I don't understand your need to do those things. Tifa loved Aerith. In The Kids Are Alright, she says that Aerith was more than a friend, she was family. Aerith loved Tifa. She entrusted her feelings for Cloud to Tifa, asked her to take care of him and wanted them to be together. And Cloud loved both of them.

Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

Aerith herself wanted her best friend and the guy they were both in love with to be together after she died. I mean, look at that. That's beautiful. That is really beautiful.

But all these suggestions you bring up turn Cloud into a manipulative douchebag, Aerith into a selfish bitch and Tifa into a pathetic, clingy doormat.

I don't understand how someone so clearly invested in these characters and their story can revel in and prefer them like that. That isn't who they are. Just let them be who they are. Don't turn the story into something it isn't.

If Cloud had been alone and was told Don's not into men, would Cloud have still attempted to rescue Tifa? Maybe. Maybe not.

Let me ask you this: if Cloud was always planning on rescuing Tifa despite being told Don's not into men, why does Cloud say, "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"

The phrasing of Cloud's words suggest that if Aerith hadn't decided to go in alone, and that if her safety wasn't at risk, Cloud may have simply walked away. Cloud saying, "Oh, man......" tells us that he really didn't want to think of a way in, but that because Aerith was going to go alone, he had to figure out a way in so she didn't have to go by herself.

"Oh, man......" tells us that he was frustrated. The very next words out of his mouth are still about making sure Tifa's okay. He never abandoned that objective. He was just running into roadblocks ("The Don's not into men") and options he wasn't comfortable with (Aerith going in alone or endangering Tifa by creating a commotion).

This scene doesn't say that Cloud doesn't care for Tifa at all ...

Then what are we disagreeing about so passionately? I don't care if someone thinks he was quicker to show concern for Aerith in this situation, or even if he was. He was clearly concerned about them both, perhaps for different reasons, and that's what matters here. That's the only thing we were ever discussing as far as I knew.

 

[Aerobalance]

Aeris can't do shit if someone overpowers her and...I dunno, tries to rape her at Don's?

Of course she can; she knows MAGIC, right? She could use a regen spell on his penis.


..Oh.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Of course she can; she knows MAGIC, right? She could use a regen spell on his penis.


..Oh.

Or she could just use a Firaga or something. People seem to forget Aerith is also good at black magic, mainly due to both black and white magic having the same stat.

 

[Octo]

Mini or Toad surely. Or Mini AND Toad

Wait, what were we talking about?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Mini or Toad surely. Or Mini AND Toad

Wait, what were we talking about?

Something to do with triangles, I think? I think triangles are a wonderful instrument.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Somewhere in time, Pythagoras is weeping at what has been done to his precious triangles.

 

[Strangelove]

Mini or Toad surely. Or Mini AND Toad

Wait, what were we talking about?

some pretty bad sti's by the sounds of things

 

[Sprites]

Just dropping in to add...there's a reason Cloud never says outright Tifa shouldn't get involved when Aerith mentions bringing up the fact her and Cloud can pass for the other two women and it's come straight from the beginning of the script that leads into Tifa talking about why she's there in the first place. Honestly I have no idea why nobody picked up on it in the beginning.


Tifa
"I'm glad you're OK."

Cloud
"Thanks. What happened?"

Tifa
"When we got back from the Number 5 reactor, there was this weird
man."
"So Barret caught him and squeezed some information out of him."

Cloud
"That's when the Don's name popped up."

Tifa
"Right, Don Corneo."
"Barret told me to leave the lech alone..."
"But something's been bothering me."

Cloud
"I see. So you wanted to get the story straight from Corneo's
mouth."

Tifa
"So I made it here, but now I'm in a bind."
"Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."

(Aerith turns.)

Aerith
"Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"

Tifa
"I guess so, but..."

Aerith
"We have two here, right?"

Cloud
"No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."

Aerith
"Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"

Cloud
"No, I don't want Tifa in...."

So basically although Cloud personally doesn't want Tifa in danger, he understands there's a reason for her doing it. It's not that he's any less concerned for Tifa's safety but he knows now that she knows something's not right and she has a reason for going to the Don in the first place.

Kinda shows that BB...you're only picking up on parts in that script that suit you which you shouldn't do because if you look at this part of the script as a whole it explains why he shows concern when Aerith get's herself involved whereas he doesn't need to with Tifa as it also supports why Cloud doesn't turn round and say to her, "You can't do this!"

Tifa knew exactly what she was doing when she went to see the Don and her main concern at this point was that she wasn't going to get picked, not worrying about what was going to happen to her...everyone seems have forgotten that here.

Tifa is also VERY capable of looking after herself, so although Cloud doesn't want her involved he knows she can look after herself and why she was going to do this alone originally. Aerith on the other hand needed help to escape from the Turks from the moment Cloud met her, he knows that although she lives in the slums, she's no where near as capable of taking care of herself than the battle hardened Tifa. His concern for her is more due to the fact he know she can't take care of herself in a more volatile situation in comparison to Tifa.

Tifa had has training from a very experienced martial artist, anything that Aerith has learned with her staff is more than likely self taught, so who is going to fare better in a sticky situation...the experienced martial artist or the inexperienced, self taught person, who would you expect Cloud to be be more concerned for and not out of romantic feelings?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Kinda shows that BB...you're only picking up on parts in that script that suit you which you shouldn't do because if you look at this part of the script as a whole it explains why he shows concern when Aerith get's herself involved

I am agog! I am aghast!

He doesn't want her involved in AVALANCHE business, confronting the big Don in a fucking brothel. It takes a special breed of delusional to take it as anything else. Or, you know, flat out denial as the entire thing is a save Tifa mission and the staff pretty much say so even if you butcher the script to death. Of course, we also cherry pick when we want to use staff comments and when we want to use the script itself so....

 

[BlankBeat]

Ack -- I really don't want this post to get buried. Posted it on the next page. Sorry.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Just wanna say one thing here...

Although Cid plays a larger role than Cloud and Tifa, it would have taken minimal effort on SE's part to show Cloud and Tifa romantically in DoC.

Given SE's recent history... what makes you think they're willing to make even a minimal effort to spell out anything? Let alone something we should all already know.

 

[BlankBeat]

It doesn't seem strange at all given that Cid has a much larger role in DC than Cloud and Tifa combined. Between the two of them, they speak two dozen lines in the entire game, some being only one or two words.

I'm not exaggerating, by the way. If you go count them up, that's all the lines they have, most of which take place during a short phone conversation in which they discuss Vincent infiltrating Deepground.

Although Cid plays a larger role than Cloud and Tifa, it would have taken minimal effort on SE's part to show Cloud and Tifa romantically in DoC. If SE was able to include Cid's romance in DoC, there is no reason SE couldn't have highlighted Cloud and Tifa's romance, too -- even if it was as simple as a minor embrace, kiss, etc.

I find it very curious that one year after Cloud's guilt is removed, SE continues to portray Cloud and Tifa platonically. To me, the minor role Cloud and Tifa play in DoC is irrelevant when we consider the amount of cameos and homages SE includes in their games. SE loves referencing past games and relationships in games that may be completely un-related. For example, SE is the type of company that includes a minor and easily missed reference to Cloud and Aerith's romance in Final Fantasy IX. Given that SE is the type of company to include a reference to Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship in FFIX (a game that has absolutely nothing to do with FFVII aside from being a FF title) there is absolutely no reason Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship should have been off the table in DoC, a game that *DIRECTLY* relates to FFVII and AC -- unless, of course, SE doesn't believe they are in a relationship.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that after the HAHW scene, SE has only portrayed Cloud and Tifa platonically. Although there is circumstantial evidence that may lead some to believe they are in a relationship, SE has decided, INTENTIONALLY, not to portray them as explicitly romantic in either AC or DoC. That is extremely weird and strange, especially for a company that makes romantic references all over the place -- even in games that are un-realted to each other.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

IThe same section of the game manual that is entitled "Story of Final Fantasy VII" and refers to Cloud as an ex-SOLDIER (Japanese and English versions)?:

http://i.imgur.com/5x8YePT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KsgEUGI.jpg

Now, how could I have overlooked such an indispensable tome of endgame and post-game information?

The pattern I'm trying to point out is that Tifa is never stated to be anything more than Cloud's "childhood friend." I've seen Aerith be referenced as someone Cloud will never forget, someone Cloud agreed to protect, or as someone Cloud feels extreme guilt towards.

So doesn't it seem unusual that Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship is never stated? And when Tifa isn't listed as Cloud's "childhood friend," it still has nothing to do with their romantic relationship. She is never listed as Cloud's lover or romantic partner. Sure, she's listed as the Mother of their family, but Barret is Marlene's Father.

Although not every *main* FF couple is *always* listed romantically, I can't help but assume there is at least one or two direct references to them being a romantic couple. It's very curious that the same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa.

Okay, I see the point you're making here. I get it. I really do. Honestly, I'm surprised that you would be the one to bring up such a thing, but I agree with what you're saying.

Thank you.

I just consider it pretty weak-ass to only focus on how Cloud acted toward Tifa when he wasn't entirely himself. Even if you argue that he seemed to put Aerith before anyone else while she was alive, you would have to concede that Tifa is his clear priority after Aerith has exited the stage, and particularly once he has regained his memories.

In a sense, yes, Cloud's situation on Disc 1 puts both women on an even level. I see what you're saying. But it doesn't put them on even footing with Cloud. Rather, it puts them on even footing with Composite Cloud, who is a mixture of various personalities and influences.

The real Cloud is watching everything, experiencing everything, trying to influence things when he can -- but he's not the one actually interacting with the women.

It's peculiar to me when fans discussing the LTD focus so much on Composite Cloud's time in the driver seat rather than endgame Cloud, when he's finally himself and is the person he will be after the game. I get that it's important to look at that time period since it was the only time Cloud was around both women, but you have to consider that this was all done deliberately as part of leaving Cloud in a wounded state emotionally and leaving fans with questions of how he would act around Tifa and Aerith once he has all his memories of the former and has had to integrate into himself Composite Cloud's feelings for the latter.

For Cloud, Aerith and the player, there's really no moment where all the cards are ever on the table, and this leaves mysteries for everyone. The player, Aerith and Cloud himself. Tifa too. She has to wonder if Cloud would still be with her if Aerith hadn't died.

That's the story they set out to tell, though. We will never know what would have happened had Cloud had his memories of Tifa when he first met Aerith, nor will we know how he would have responded to the two women if they had both been alive when he had recovered his memories.

For all we know, he may have chosen to live with both of them.

Tifa is essential to him, but Aerith certainly fulfills his instinct to be protective better than Tifa. Perhaps he couldn't have done without either of them, the same way I can't do without my wife or my girlfriend. They both fulfill different emotional needs for me. My wife is a partner who has stood by me through all our hardships and whom I can't see my life without while my girlfriend is a source of more carefree joys and allows me to live out my own protective, nurturing side and I can't see my life without her either.

We'll just never know. I don't understand why it's so important to you to focus on these things we can't ever know instead of just looking at what we do know: Cloud has chosen to spend his life with Tifa and will also cherish Aerith -- another woman he loved -- for the rest of his life. It's simple, doesn't require dissecting quotes and doesn't involve diminishing either woman's importance to him. And that's the story of Cloud Strife's life after FFVII.

Honestly, I feel bad when I insult you because you are intellgient and every once in a while in this sea of dung, you'll actually make a really valuable observation and we can have a civil, honest, intelligent exchange. I just get pissed off when you either suggest I'm divorcing a quote from its surrounding context or when I know you know better than the outrageous suggestions you posit (e.g. Cloud not caring about Tifa's well-being in Wall Market).

I don't understand your need to do those things. Tifa loved Aerith. In The Kids Are Alright, she says that Aerith was more than a friend, she was family. Aerith loved Tifa. She entrusted her feelings for Cloud to Tifa, asked her to take care of him and wanted them to be together. And Cloud loved both of them.

Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

Aerith herself wanted her best friend and the guy they were both in love with to be together after she died. I mean, look at that. That's beautiful. That is really beautiful.

But all these suggestions you bring up turn Cloud into a manipulative douchebag, Aerith into a selfish bitch and Tifa into a pathetic, clingy doormat.

I don't understand how someone so clearly invested in these characters and their story can revel in and prefer them like that. That isn't who they are. Just let them be who they are. Don't turn the story into something it isn't.

The reason I focus on how Cloud acted while both Aerith and Tifa were alive is because that is the only time we can compare how Cloud acts when he has the choice between the two.

During Cloud's childhood, obviously Cloud showed romantic interest in Tifa. And after Aerith died, obviously Cloud showed romantic interest in Tifa. But this begs a few questions: 1. If both Aerith and Tifa were present during Cloud's childhood, would Cloud have fancied Tifa? Isn't it possible Cloud would have fancied Aerith, instead? 2. If Aerith had lived, would Cloud have expressed mutual feelings to Tifa? Isn't it possible Cloud would have expressed his mutual feelings to Aerith, instead?

When Aerith and Tifa are both on equal footing, it is undeniable that Cloud preferred Aerith. One has to look no further than their chemistry, Tifa's jealously, and Cloud's consistent concern for Aerith's safety. This is part of the reason I'm a Clerith shipper -- I think Cloud and Aerith are more compatible, something Nojima hints at. For lack of a better word, the only time Tifa "beats" Aerith is either when Aerith is dead, or during Cloud's childhood, a time Aerith wasn't present for. This suggest to me that if Aerith was present during Cloud's childhood, Cloud would have fancied Aerith instead of Tifa. This also suggests that if Aerith had lived, Cloud would have expressed mutual feelings to Aerith instead of Tifa.

Part of the reason I don't think Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings led to a relationship is because Cloud continues to love Aerith after she dies:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.” ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

“Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s. Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.” ~Tifa’s profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 42-47

It is clear part of Cloud dragging around the past isn't just about letting two people he cared for die, but that one of the people he let die was Aerith in particular. Tifa senses this: "The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." Then, when Tifa see's Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, her expression becomes, "complex". It isn't hard to read between the lines. Cloud is feeling guilty that he let Aerith die, but because it's Aerith in particular, a woman he loved romantically, it adds another dimension to the situation from Tifa's perspective.

If that wasn't clear-cut enough, in the second passage I provided, it starts off by positioning Aerith and Tifa as "love rivals", and says Tifa built up "complicated feelings" for Aerith, a woman who had built up a "special bond" with Cloud that was "different" than hers. The "special bond" SE is referring to is the bond Cloud formed with Aerith while Aerith and Tifa were on equal footing. And the reason SE says Tifa continues to carry "complicated feelings" towards Aerith even in AC, is because Cloud is still romantically attached to Aerith after her death. One has to look no further than this quote to see that Tifa is insecure that the past Cloud is dragging around has to do with Aerith in particular (ie: Tifa's "love rival"). Tifa witnessed what we all did -- when Aerith and Tifa were both alive and on equal footing, Cloud preferred Aerith. And the bond Cloud created with Aerith while she was on equal footing with Tifa is continuing to complicate Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC.

"Oh, man......" tells us that he was frustrated. The very next words out of his mouth are still about making sure Tifa's okay. He never abandoned that objective. He was just running into roadblocks ("The Don's not into men") and options he wasn't comfortable with (Aerith going in alone or endangering Tifa by creating a commotion).

I'm not convinced that if Cloud had been alone, he would have entered Don's mansion after being told Don wasn't interested in men.

People keep pointing out that Cloud knew Tifa was an awesome fighter who could take care of herself. Cloud had already been on missions with Tifa and they had blown up reactors together. So, yes, Cloud may have very well turned around and said Tifa could take care of herself.

Unlike when Cloud decided to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters, his trip to Don's mansion was unexpected. Cloud simply followed the cart Tifa was on, and eventually discovered she was in Don's mansion. It wasn't as though it was Cloud's intent, from the beginning, to rescue Tifa. Cloud's intent was to simply go back to the Seventh Heaven bar. Given this difference, it makes sense SE wouldn't view Tifa's rescue as comparable to Cloud's desire to rescue Aerith from the Shinra headquarters.

The bottom line is, we will never know if Cloud would have gone in if he had been alone. What we do know is that Aerith's safety and Aerith's creative plan is what led Cloud to entering Don's mansion. To me, this is yet another example of Cloud preferring Aerith and putting her safety above all else.

Then what are we disagreeing about so passionately? I don't care if someone thinks he was quicker to show concern for Aerith in this situation, or even if he was. He was clearly concerned about them both, perhaps for different reasons, and that's what matters here. That's the only thing we were ever discussing as far as I knew.

Given that this is the LTD thread, what I'm showing is that while both Aerith and Tifa were alive, this is yet another example where Cloud is quicker to show concern for Aerith than Tifa.

This is simply another example that suggests if Aerith had been present during Cloud's childhood, or if Aerith had not died, Clould would have fancied Aerith during his childhood and expressed mutual feelings to Aerith, instead of Tifa. Tifa only "wins" when Aerith is out of the picture which is why I think disc 1 is essential to building up the argument for the Clerith ship.



Did any of you watch the TV show Laguna Beach? Although it's not a perfect comparison, I think it's interesting to compare the two because Laguna Beach had a love triangle -- which is what led to part of its success.

Lauren (Tifa) and Stephen (Cloud) grew up together in Laguna Beach (Nibleheim). They are the same age. They've always had a thing for each other, but nothing serious.

Then, Kristin (Aerith) comes in the picture. Stephen prefers and dates Kristin (Aerith), and Lauren (Tifa) get's jealous/angry about it. But when Kristin (Aerith) breaks up (dies), Stephen goes back to Lauren (Tifa).

It's clear who Stephen (Cloud) preferred, even though Stephen (Cloud) eventually goes back to Lauren (Tifa).

 

[Geostigma]

Although Cid plays a larger role than Cloud and Tifa, it would have taken minimal effort on SE's part to show Cloud and Tifa romantically in DoC. If SE was able to include Cid's romance in DoC, there is no reason SE couldn't have highlighted Cloud and Tifa's romance, too -- even if it was as simple as a minor embrace, kiss, etc.

Maybe because the farthest thing from there mind was the LTD? Whats the point in them reconfirming information that the rest of the compilation clearly spells out?

FF7 and the compilation are not about the LTD or 100+ hour love story. The LTD is an after thought its daft to think every entry will confirm something that is already canon in SE's eyes.

If all you walk away with after each game in the compilation is "I wonder who cloud loves" then I find it hard to believe you either played the games or payed much attention to the narrative.

 

[BlankBeat]

Maybe because the farthest thing from there mind was the LTD? Whats the point in them reconfirming information that the rest of the compilation clearly spells out?

What I'm saying is that if SE is the type of company to include a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in an un-related game such as FFIX, the argument can't be made that it would be inappropriate for them to include a reference to Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship in game that is directly related to FFVII and AC.

SE has consistently portrayed Cloud and Tifa platonically since the HAHW scene -- and all we hear is excuse after excuse after excuse.

 

[Geostigma]

What I'm saying is that if SE is the type of company to include a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in an un-related game such as FFIX, the argument can't be made that it would be inappropriate for them to include a reference to Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship in game that is directly related to FFVII and AC.

That cameo is still up in the air and has been noted multiple times in this thread. It could be cloud/aerith and it could be completely other people already established in FF9. Try playing FF9 before copy and pasting stuff from your blogger "fact" sheet.

SE has consistently portrayed Cloud and Tifa platonically since the HAHW scene -- and all we hear is excuse after excuse after excuse.

More like excuse ad nauseum from you lol.

DoC is a non point. SE has already spent pretty much all of FF7 itself and several other works establishing Cloti. Whats the point in doing it in a game where they are so absent its hard to even call them supporting cast? The LTD isnt the only romantic subplot in FF7, and I for one am happy they didnt shovel more of the shit down our throats and opted for more spot light on Cid.

Also just because I liked saying it

If all you walk away with after each game in the compilation is "I wonder who cloud loves" then I find it hard to believe you either played the games or payed much attention to the narrative.

 

[Aerobalance]

Ack -- I really don't want this post to get buried.

Its fine, you don't need to worry about this-- no one's going to remember the posts anyways.

 

[BlankBeat]

That cameo is still up in the air and has been noted multiple times in this thread. It could be cloud/aerith and it could be completely other people already established in FF9. Try playing FF9 before copy and pasting stuff from your blogger "fact" sheet.

I have played FFIX, but thanks for attacking my integrity.

Anyway -- the cameo is *NOT* up in the air:

Aerith is called "Flower Girl" in FFVII, FFT, and FFIX. In fact, she introduces herself in FFVII by saying, "I'm Aerith, the flower girl. Nice to meet you."

Cloud is Knight VII for two reasons: 1. Cloud is the hero of FFVII 2. The Flower Girl in FFIX says, "...but he's not exactly Mr. Personality..."

DoC is a non point. SE has already spent pretty much all of FF7 itself and several other works establishing Cloti. Whats the point in doing it in a game where they are so absent its hard to even call them supporting cast? The LTD isnt the only romantic subplot in FF7, and I for one am happy they didnt shovel more of the shit down our throats and opted for more spot light on Cid.

To *YOU* DoC is a non-issue. We simply have a difference of opinion.

To me, it is *VERY* telling that a company that is not shy about including random cameos and references, decided not to reference Cloud and Tifa's romance in a game that directly relates to FFVII and AC. In fact, SE has never shown Cloud and Tifa in a romantic fashion after the HAHW scene.

Also just because I liked saying it

Even Hawk agrees that Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa.

But just because Aerith is dead and Tifa is alive, doesn't automatically mean Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, or that whatever relationship they may have formed would stand the test of time.

 

[Geostigma]

Not discounting that Cloud loved aerith. No one is, your the only person here who brings that up bub.

And yes the FF9 cameo is up in the air. Its been proven multiple times in this thread which we all know you saw and ignored.