The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Dashell · Sep 28, 2011

It's every little girl's fantasy to be a princess and white-knighted and I think that's what the quote is implying.

Not me, I wanted to be abducted by aliens, still do :monster:

even if I'm still leery on the translation. (No offense)

I plan to take a second look at some of this stuff since I've gotten better recently, but for now that's what I gots ^_^

.

Ryushikaze · Sep 28, 2011

Discord said:
Not me, I wanted to be abducted by aliens, still do

In shiny silver spacepants which can deflect bullets.

QED.

I plan to take a second look at some of this stuff since I've gotten better recently, but for now that's what I gots .

For the record, keep providing the prime source along with the translation. Transparency, natch.

Anastar · Sep 29, 2011

Fairheartstrife

Fairheartstrife said:
Now if only the essay contained things that hadn't been refuted and disproven a hundred times over...

I could say the exact same thing about Cloti evidence.

IMO, the evidence in my essay has NOT been disproven, but Cloti evidence has been disproven. That's why Cleriths don't want to get in LT debates any more. We've all heard the same stuff over and over. We don't believe Cloti evidence. Cloti's don't believe our evidence. We think Cloti evidence is wrong. You think Clerith evidence is wrong.

No one's been proven correct because SE hasn't said which couple is canon. Despite what you are all saying, the "For the One I Love" page is simply saying that who Cloud loves is optional to the player. It does not make Cloti canon.

Gym Leader Devil

Gym Leader Devil said:
@Anastar: Ok, got a better grasp of what I am commenting on now. My apologies to anyone who read what was here the first time, that was my bad and the less said of it the better. Now, as to your post... I'm not even going to try to quote that, but my comments are mostly general enough that it shouldn't matter.

Your essay jumps right into the use of commercials as "evidence." Advertisements for a piece of fiction are almost never trustworthy sources for information on the events of said fiction. SE, then Squaresoft, has been demonstrated repeatedly in this very thread to be even less reliable than that. As Ryu has said, do you believe Terra actually marched through what was then modern day Tokyo using Magitek Armor? Do you believe that Mog auditioned monsters and physically zapped them into the game cartidge? The commercial is all but meaningless, it was there to attract notice and garner sales. The game itself, then the rest of the Compilation that followed, and the published materials such as Ultimanias are all that should be brought in. Commercials are none of these things.

This is all I'm going to copy from your analysis of my essay because you're saying essentially the same thing as Fairheartstrife said: you all think it's been disproven. I don't think it's been disproven. What I seem to recognize and you don't is that this is merely your opinion vs. my opinion. None of what you said and none of what I said has not been proven or disproven as actual fact. It's all interpretation.

Discord

I'm going to focus on responding to you, since at least you listen.

someone said:
Here, let me walk you to my point as it seems to be out of your reach: I have seen her and other Cleriths argue that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Based on what? Oh, yes, Aerith's comments on the date. If you remove HA/LA as canon material, you can't use the date--in any fashion, including bringing up context therein. THAT is my point. I don't give a shit if she thinks the dates are canon. They can all be or none of them, but you can't argue for the removal of context from one "non-canon" scenario while using an other to try and build up your shoddy pairing.
Ah well, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying here then:

I'm not sure who said this to you, and I'm not about to swim through pages of this thread to find out. However, this person missed the whole point. No, I am not saying that Aerith knew the real Cloud because of what she said on the date. I actually gave three quotes from the FFVII Ultimania Omega saying that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Those quotes do not say that Aerith only knew Cloud on the Date.

I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a breakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. ~page 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

That says that Aerith knew Cloud because of her inherent ability, which means that her abilities as a Cetra allowed her to know the real Cloud. Now, since Aerith can't turn her abilities as a Cetra on and off just like you can't turn your sense of smell on and off, that means her abilities as a Cetra were working when she first met him and continued working whenever she spent time with him. So she knew the real him long before the Date.

someone said:
Same for you. I SAID if you claim that the HA scene as non-canon and use that to discredit a canon outcome, you can't use a situation from an equally non-canon situation to validate your position.

If that's what people think I'm saying, then they really need to read my posts more carefully.

Ryushikaze

Ryushikaze said:
Not that he can see this, but Anastar was doing more than 'ignoring points made', she was ignoring large chunks of posts, even when these were made very very obvious to her. Repeatedly.

Then why don't you link me to those posts. I am on a 56K modem with a phone line connection. So far, I've spent an hour and a half on this much of my post. I haven't even found Gym Leader Devil's response to my post to him/her yesterday. I also cannot read the normal font on this forum without highlighting it because of poor eyesight ant night blindness which doesn't allow me to see contrast easily. I've had 3 operations on my eyes and I was totally blind in one eye for over 2 years.

Quit being so ready to criticize people who are trying as best they can.

Ariadne

Let's try this once again:

Ariadne said:
So, you're really just going to ignore the whole thing about Shadow, huh? And Terra? And X-2's canon ending?

Even though I could not have stressed more that I wanted a response about it? And even though Ryu and Quexinos have also asked you for a response about it?

Ryu was right when he said "You keep ignoring it because you don't want to face it," wasn't he?

What else with a canon outcome despite multiple versions can we ignore? There are multiple versions of FFV's ending, but the U20 Scenario shows the one where everyone survives (what it calls the Happy Ending) under its "Ending" header, even though it mentions that other versions are available.

You know, I read your apology and I really wanted to believe you meant it. The reason I've been so upset in my responses to you is that I always respected you and expected more from you than to misrepresent others' arguments, attack their credibility on unfounded grounds, or blatantly ignore the points they emphasized to you they wanted responses to most while claiming you had come for good faith debate.

But you just found another way to slap me in the face. You may have said that you wanted you, Ryu, Que and I to be able to have a polite and honest discussion, but you couldn't have shown less respect to us if you tried.

Okay, I just found this after being here for an hour and a half. Once again, you're claiming that all I do is ignore your points when I don't even know what points I'm supposedly ignoring.

Yes, I saw your point about Shadow. Very honestly, I don't see how that proves anything about the Highwind scene. What you said about Shadow means that that scene has a canon ending. How does one scene with a canon ending mean that all scenes have a canon ending? That's like saying if one steak is cooked medium rare, then all steaks are cooked medium rare.

I gave you examples of several scenes that do not have canon endings, such as whether or not Cloud buys a flower from Aerith, who Cloud gives the flower to, and who Don Corneo picks as a date. I could go on with more examples, but that's enough to show that not all scenes have canon endings. If not all scenes have canon endings, then it's not definite that the HW scene has a canon ending UNLESS there is something in the game that would indicate that it does. I see nothing in FFVII, the novella's, the movie, or DoC that gives definite evidence that Cloud loves Tifa. Therefore, neither version is canon. SE has also never stated that the HW scene has a canon ending. Therefore, there is no proof that the HW scene has a canon ending.

That's the best I can answer you on the subject, Tres. Sorry if it's not good enough for you.

Ariadne said:
Why even repeat that again when I had already said that neither Ryu nor I have ever put forward any such claim that "a scene under player control can't have an official version"? Why say that again when I had already said that to read the article as claiming that is a misreading of the line in question?

For that matter, how would it have ever made sense for us to say that given that we were -- as the purpose of the article(!) -- putting forth that a canon outcome existed for a scene subject to player control??

Again, for you to respond in that manner means you either didn't read all of my initial post, or that you were deliberately trying to misrepresent what Ryu and I had said.

Okay, that's not what you meant. Now, can you try focusing on the point I was making about why I do not think the HW scene has a canon outcome?

I have made this point before, and I've yet to see you or Ryu respond to it. Page 232 specifically says that Cloud and Tifa share strong feelings in the High Affection version only. IMO, that does not mean the HW scene has a canon ending.

If strong feelings are shared in the High Affection version only, then the same feelings are not shared in the Low Affection version. The FFVII UO says that the feelings shared in the Low Affection version are "apathetic". Let's look at the meaning of "apathetic":dience.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic

apathetic - adjective

1. having or showing little or not emotion; apathetic behavior
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive; an apathetic audience

If one person is not interested in the other, then they do not share romantic feelings for each other. If two people are indifferent to one another and unresponsive to one another, then they have no romantic interest in each other.

Plus, the very name of the Low Affection version given by SE is "Low Affection" version. Low Affection means Low Affection.

If Tifa has a zero affection score for Cloud, then she has no affection for him. Now, I thought how the Date Mechanism works is quite obvious. You can see a full accounting of it here:

http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

Now, Aerith's affection level for Cloud grows higher when Cloud is nice to her. Same with Tifa. Aerith's affection level for Cloud grows lower when Cloud is not nice to her. Same with Tifa.

The more Cloud is nice to Aerith/Tifa, the more their affection for him grows. It's logical that the nicer Cloud is to Aerith/Tifa, then the more Cloud's affection for Aerith/Tifa grows. Simple.

So what is going on is that the feelings are mutual.

For example:

If Tifa is chosen as the Don's date: "You all right?" (+3 Aeris) "We gotta help Tifa!" (-2 Aeris)

Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

Aerith's affection for Cloud gains 3 points if Cloud shows concern for Aerith. If he shows more concern for Aerith, then he likes her more.
Aerith's affection level for Cloud loses two points if he shows more concern for Tifa. If he shows more concern for Tifa, then he likes Tifa more.

The feelings are obviously reciprocal.

- It's now three hours since I started this post, and I haven't even looked for Gym Leader Devil's response to my post yesterday. I have no more time for tonight.
I didn't read the rest of your post yet, so I've answered what I could.

Since you're feeling that I'm not answering you, maybe you should send me your posts in PM. Then I could answer your posts completely. If you want, you could
post what you send me along with my responses in this thread.

Then you would know that I'm not ignoring you, and hopefully everything will get answered.

Quexinos asked me to respond to several things, but sorry Quex - I'm out of time for tonight.

Fairheartstrife · Sep 29, 2011

Chantara said:
Fairheartstrife
I could say the exact same thing about Cloti evidence.

If it had been disproven and without merit, sure.

IMO, the evidence in my essay has NOT been disproven, but Cloti evidence has been disproven.

Your opinion is wrong.

That's why Cleriths don't want to get in LT debates any more.

That's not why.

We've all heard the same stuff over and over. We don't believe Cloti evidence. Cloti's don't believe our evidence. We think Cloti evidence is wrong. You think Clerith evidence is wrong.

No. I don't think there is any Clerith evidence. Period.

No one's been proven correct because SE hasn't said which couple is canon.

They never specified the narrator in CoLW either. Not everything needs to be spelled out.

Despite what you are all saying, the "For the One I Love" page is simply saying that who Cloud loves is optional to the player. It does not make Cloti canon.

Did you read what Ryu and Tres said? At all??

I'm not sure who said this to you, and I'm not about to swim through pages of this thread to find out.

That would be me. Go on...

However, this person missed the whole point. No, I am not saying that Aerith knew the real Cloud because of what she said on the date. I actually gave three quotes from the FFVII Ultimania Omega saying that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Those quotes do not say that Aerith only knew Cloud on the Date.

Uhm, no. You gave quotes stating that Aerith knew the present Cloud was not the real him. Being able to detect a falsehood and actually knowing the truth are two VERY different things.

That says that Aerith knew Cloud because of her inherent ability, which means that her abilities as a Cetra allowed her to know the real Cloud.

Again, no. For the reasons I stated above.

If that's what people think I'm saying, then they really need to read my posts more carefully.

Reading. Shaking my head, but reading.

Quit being so ready to criticize people who are trying as best they can.

Because Ryu is psychic...

Okay, I just found this after being here for an hour and a half. Once again, you're claiming that all I do is ignore your points when I don't even know what points I'm supposedly ignoring.

He highlighted in bold and underlined.

Yes, I saw your point about Shadow. Very honestly, I don't see how that proves anything about the Highwind scene.

I'm gonna face-palm for him.

Actually, this holds true for the remainder of your post...

:facepalm:

I understand and respect your pairing choices. But the blatant disregard for FACT and ESTABLISHED canon to try and give legitimacy your fanon preference...is just...frustrating. You hold yourself and your arguments to an unbelievably low standard and in light of factual rebuttal you scuttle away with 'SE never confirmed'... It's connect the dots simple. Really.

However, your opinions--as wrong as they are--are yours. Happy to have heard them, even if I really, really don't agree with them.

Celes Chere · Sep 29, 2011

That's why Cleriths don't want to get in LT debates any more.

Just wondering - why do you speak for all Cleriths? Do you personally know every single one? O_o

Gym Leader Devil · Sep 29, 2011

After that last post from Anastar, I'm sorry folks but I'm getting to where Tres was several pages back. Just shy of saying fuck it.

So, Annie, you have eye problems and crappy internet, we get that. I bet that makes things difficult. Well, when he posted the stuff he wanted you to respond to the FIRST time, Tres made god damned sure no one who was actually looking could possibly miss them. Sure they're hard as fuck to find now more than 10 full pages later, but at the time they were pretty obvious. They got reposted for you several times since that first posting to boot. And then, many more questions were posed to you that could have been and in some cases were lifted verbatim from said section of Tres' post. For shits and giggles, I went to Tres profile and used his statistics to hunt it down one more time:

Ariadne said:
Now, seriously, you can continue with this bullshit, truth obscuring focus on a misreading of Ryu's comments from almost two years ago (in which case you will also have to make the plainly absurd claim that the scene with Terra lacks a canon outcome, and that Shadow's death or survival on the Floating Continent lacks a canon outcome, and that FFX-2's story does not have a canon sequence of events; and I'm inflating the length of this sentence, underlining it and including bold and italics tags around the most vital words herein to emphasize that this is the most important sentence in this entire post and that I expect you to address it if you post a response -- or just not bother replying at all; for real) or you can discuss something constructive like what criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not.

And you're JUST NOW finally commenting on them, and even then only in part and with a total misrepresentation of the fucking point?! You're actually going to throw out something like "What you said shows this had a canon ending. How does one scene with a canon ending mean that all scenes have a canon ending? That's like saying if one steak is cooked medium rare, then all steaks are cooked medium rare." Honestly, you can type this in and hit submit and be fine with that?

Tres never said all scenes have a canon scene. He was making a point to show that just because there is a deviation of a scene in the game IT CAN HAVE A CANON OUTCOME. Just as you agreed, in that post right there, that Shadow's optional death/survival has a canon outcome. And we know it has a canon outcome for the same reason we know the HW scene has a canon outcome. If this is finally dawning on you, guess what? YOU FINALLY CAUGHT UP.

I'm done with Annie here. Tres had the right idea on that one. I'll come back to see what LL, CR, and anyone else has to say, but seriously I've had more than my fill of this one.

You know what, between that, the essay, and this latest post, I'm done with Anastar. I'll check in here when LL or CR posts again, but until then I'm out.

Edit: ^I just noticed I said this twice. And ya know what, I'm leaving it. It deserves saying twice. Maybe this way a certain someone will actually see it.

Dashell · Sep 29, 2011

So we all agree that just because a scene has more than one outcome that doesn't mean it doesn't have a canon one? AWESOME let's move on :awesome:

I am on a 56K modem with a phone line connection. So far, I've spent an hour and a half on this much of my post. I

Im going to suggest to you that you turn off signatures then.

User CP > Under settings and options click "Edit options" > Under Thread Display Options uncheck "show signatures.

A lot of us have these huge ass over 3MB images in our signatures (that the lovely and talented Tiff made :monster:

) and that's probably what's slowing you down. I will also suggest using the vBulletin default skin. (bottom left of screen) That's black on white so it should be easier to read. Failing that, use the mobile skin as it doesn't use avatars or signatures

IMO, the evidence in my essay has NOT been disproven, but Cloti evidence has been disproven. That's why Cleriths don't want to get in LT debates any more. We've all heard the same stuff over and over. We don't believe Cloti evidence. Cloti's don't believe our evidence. We think Cloti evidence is wrong. You think Clerith evidence is wrong.

Here's my problem, I've heard all those arguments on your Clerith essay before, but whenever I respond to them, I don't get a bloody response from anyone. (Not you obviously) so if I respond to your posts, I'm going to want you to defend your position and not just say "that's your opinion" and such. Know what I mean? I still plan on responding to you but it'll take some time :monster:

If you DO have the time though, I would like to know according to you what criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not. You've mentioned a scene from the movie or the game... well does it have to be a scene in the game/movie? Or would a, oh I don't know off the top of my head, a statement saying that a conversation Cloud and Tifa have later on in the game relates back to the HA scene do it?

Dashell · Sep 29, 2011

Okay so Anastar, I'm about to post this response to your Clerith essay. I grouped some things together that you may not have written together initially, but it's just for convenience sake. I disagree with many of your points obviously, but I'd also like to hear your side of things. So I ask that you please do take the time to respond back to me and not just say something like, "that's your opinion." or something like that. I've not always been able to discuss these things with you elsewhere for obvious reasons and, well yeah we've talked by PM and stuff, but let's face it, I like an audience. Now I've known you for a couple years now, and you've always been honest with me and I respect that. So I'm going to be honest with you about these things. I'm going to speak my honest opinion as I know you would do the same for me. I am going to ask for evidence many times if you make a claim without some. But please keep in mind, that what I say here has no malicious intent or anything like that and nothing should be taken personally.

The first indication of Cloud and Aerith's love is given in the official commercial for the game. In that commercial, the word "Love" appears over a scene of Cloud laying Aerith to rest along with a voice over saying, "the story of a love that could never be".

***

In the same commercial, SE also talks about Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth, which is saying that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are the exact opposite of his feelings for Sephiroth: who Cloud loves vs. who Cloud hates. In the same commercial, Tifa is only seen with the other members of Avalanche under the title of "Friendship".

It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead. Furthermore, the idea that love can continue beyond death is also proven by Yuna's continuing love for Tidus in FFX-2.

Okay first thing I'll say is I don't disagree with you about the love or hate beyond death. So let's just get that out of the way. No argument here.

However, I would like you to respond to three things for me.

1. The quote says "A hate that always was." and shows Sephiroth. You don't see Cloud at all, so I don't think you can really say for sure that it's Cloud's hate for Sephiroth. It COULD be Sephiroth's hate for Cloud, or Sephiorth's hate for mankind or anything like that. So, do you know for sure it's talking about Cloud's hate for Sephiroth or is it possibly Sephiroth doing the hating?

2. The commercial says "A hate that always was." The problem here is... Cloud didn't always hate Sephiroth. And those other things I pointed out, Sephiroth didn't always hate mankind or always hate Cloud either. Thus, this statement isn't accurate. If this statement isn't accurate, how do we know the first statement is accurate?

3. As others have pointed out, commercials don't always portray the truth. SE commercials in particular seem to stretch the truth quite a bit. I'm aware that you can't watch videos, but to back up my claim I need to point these out. All of these are SE commercials for FF games. I'm also aware that some times it's argued that the FF commercials always show the canon couples so I'll talk about that a bit too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RBiZHV5X5M
This commercial shows 4 people who are... cosplaying or something. Does this have any truth to the FF world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4149plFj4
Shows artwork of a man who never appeared in the game along with some clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNgG4RIqaiU
This is the FFIV commercial. It's an ostrich running around.. nothing to do with the game even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uB8gbWAuV4
more ostrich nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5YIUbwB8Q
"Final Fantasy, it ain't over til it's over!"... uh... okay what does that even mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mEhrj308k
FFV. Shows creatures coming out of a hole to attack a chocobo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72DmCaczYMc
Terra attacking Tokyo, which didn't happen in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBG4TUPxQ0U
Shows Mog having creatures audition for being in the game. But was Mog really responsible for the creatures being in the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR5fRq2vqyY
There's a canon couple in this game right? I don't see it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGGihZAml4
No Ingus Sarah here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5anPD3yvqMg
Kind of suggests a triangle that's not there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsT1DTtZcNU
Are Rosa and Rydia the couple? That's the only 'pair' I see in this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps6cES5hRKo
No couples shown here. Unless Garn/Eik..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDY7F6EUhVI
Shows people talking on each other on the phone and none of them are in the game as far as I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlLh0yeu1ls
Says the FFIV LT is Kain -> Cecil <- Rosa, not Cecil -> Rosa <- Kain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuUPzmkCBms
This is the Final Fantasy 8 ad which states it's "A quest to win the heart of the woman he loves."

All of these commercials, particularly the last two, portray inaccurate information. So if all these commercials, all commercials of Final Fantasy games, contain inaccurate information about the plot, characters and various other points, why should I believe that the FFVII one is showing the truth? Why is that one commercial the exception?

Also for reference, the FFVII Japanese ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ8FA0u3-RI

Nothing about a love, hate, or anything else like that. Why would Square not say Cloud loves Aerith in the Japanese commercial, and only let overseas people know about that information? It would seem to me that the Japanese people would be the first people they'd want to know.

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love.

Is there any reason then for Square to say that FF8 is about a man trying to win a woman's heart, or that the FFIV LT is Kain -> Cecil <- Rosa, or that Mog is responsible for the monsters in FFIII?

Although some people say that the phrase "a love that could never be" means that the love can never exist, it's been verified for us at allexperts.com that the phrase is actually talking about a love that exists despite circumstances that would normally prevent it. Here's a link to their answer:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing...ning-phrase.htm

Furthermore, "a love that could never be" is often used in reference to the love of Romeo and Juliet. If you look the phrase up on Google, you can see how many times it's used to describe the love of Romeo and Juliet:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&s...c5229e2e8efe107

I don't deny what the phrase means, but can I ask you this? If their love cannot be... wouldn't that hurt your position? You often argue that Cloud and Aerith can have a relationship after she dies (I'm talking about having a relationship BTW, not just about them loving one another) so if their love cannot be wouldn't this contradict your theory?

Another piece of evidence for Cloud and Aerith's love is that the only male/female figurine made by SE for FFVII is of Cloud and Aerith:

This is significant because SE only makes male/female figurines and statues of romantic pairings, such as FFVIII's Squall/Rinoa, FFXII's Balthier/Fran, FFIX's Zidane/Garnet, Chrono Trigger's Chrono/Marle, Kingdom Hearts's Kairi/Sora, and CC's Zack/Aerith. As well, a figurine made by SE for Advent Children shows Cloud standing in Aerith's church:

Do you by any chance have pictures of these? Are they just the characters standing next to each other or is it showing an iconic scene from the game such as Aerith's death?

Although the figure of Aerith isn't actually there, she is obviously represented by the light streaming down on Cloud, the flowers at his feet, and the floorboards of her Church. Since other figures and cold-cast statues made by SE for their games always show a male/female romantic pairing, then the statues of Cloud/Aerith must also show a romantic pairing.

So your argument is that this is a point for Clerith even though Aerith isn't there? I'm assuming there's another statue you're talking about right? If not can you prove to me that Square intended for Aerith to be there without her being there? Wouldn't putting her there be a lot easier if they were trying to show Cloud/Aerith?

Also did you happen to see this image?

You yourself often associate Tifa with darkness. You've pointed out before that there's darkness in the room when Tifa talks to Cloud in AC/C and scenes with Aerith are usually bright. So if this is true and Cloud is standing on a dark stand, would that be enough to say that Tifa is with Cloud on the stand? Also Cloud and Tifa have matching bases as do Zack and Aerith, does this mean anything? It's Crisis Core Aerith/Zack, and FFVII Cloud/Tifa. in Crisis Core, Aerith and Zack were a couple. Can we apply the same logic to the Cloud and Tifa figurines then? If the answer is, "no" then please provide some kind of evidence as to why the figurine you posted can be used as evidence for a pairing where as mine cannot.

There are also many hints of Cloud and Aerith's feelings for one another in the dialogue of FFVII. Cloud's monologue in Dismantled shows his attraction to her when they first meet:

Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
.......
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. ~FFVII Dismantled

Later in the game, Cloud falls through the roof of Aerith's church. Aerith offers Cloud a date in exchange for Cloud being her bodyguard and Cloud accepts. It seems fairly obvious that Aerith wouldn't offer a date in exchange for Cloud being her bodyguard unless Aerith was attracted to Cloud, and that Cloud wouldn't accept that as payment unless he was attracted to Aerith.

I have never denied that there was chemistry between the two so I have no argument with this.

It's also obvious that Aerith is significant to Cloud when she is kidnapped by Shinra and taken to Hojo's lab. In the first place, Aerith is the first thing on Cloud's mind after she is kidnapped:

(Barret faces Cloud, whose back is still turned.)
Barret "An' what about you?"
(Cloud looks up, still not turning.)
Cloud "..........."
(He leaves the playground.)
Barret "Yo!"
"Where's he think he's goin'?"
Tifa "Oh! Aerith!"
Barret '"Oh yeah, that girl. What's up with her?"
Tifa "...I don't really know... But she's the one I left Marlene with."
Barret "Damn! Marlene!!" ~FFVII Script, Disk One

Cloud leaves for Aerith's house after saying only a few words to Barret after the tower blows up. Therefore, Aerith is obviously the first thing on Cloud's mind. That's reinforced by Cloud's monologue in FFVII Dismantled soon after the tower blows up:

Cloud: If only she was not involved in this battle, between me and Shinra…..
Aerith’s mother told us that she’s a foster child. And because she’s the last survival of “the Ancents,” Shinra was after her since she’s little.
So far, it seemed the Turks had never tried to forcibly take her away in violent manner. They just persistently asked for her cooperation.
But, Shinra was entirely impetuous this time.
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means! ~FFVII Dismantiled

I don't have much of an argument here, but I would like to point out that being important to someone does not automatically = love. He wanted to rescue Tifa ASAP when he found saw her in the park. She was the first thing on his mind at that point.

Once they break into Hojo's lab to rescue Aerith in the Shinra building, there's even more evidence of a relationship developing between Cloud and Aerith:

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she [Tifa] inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

That passage in the Ultimania is obviously talking about this scene in the Shinra jail after they rescue Aerith, since Tifa shows how irritated she is when she learns that Cloud has promised Aerith a date:

Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"
Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"
Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right."
(She swings her legs over the side of the cot.)
Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
(She walks to the door of her cell.)
Aerith "The deal was for one date, right?"
(Tifa sits up.)
Tifa "............oh, I get it." ~FFVII script, Disk One

The idea that Tifa sees Cloud and Aerith developing a close bond together is further reinforced in two other places in FFVII Dismantled:

It’s just that... I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder… ~Tifa's monologue, Don Corneo's mansion, FFVII Dismantled

Cloud and Aerith sometimes cause Tifa's jealous feelings to show through. ~Tifa's profile, FFVII Dismantled

Okay, Cloud and Aerith had something special going on and Tifa is jealous. Tifa is the jealous type, it's one of her flaws. It's not surprising that she'd be jealous of a bond being formed between Cloud and another girl.

The idea that Cloud and Aerith cause Tifa to get jealous suggests that something between Cloud and Aerith is making Tifa jealous. What could that be? One thing that could make Tifa jealous is that she sees a romantic relationship building between Cloud and Aerith. That same idea is repeated in Tifa's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she [Tifa] feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. ~Tifa's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 42-47

Okay yes, that is one thing, but not the only thing. Case in point, Johnny left Midgar due to heartbreak. He was obviously jealous of Cloud and Tifa. If we're going by jealous = romantic love, then that would mean that Cloud and Tifa had something going on.

As you can see, the 10th AU specifically says that Aerith is a "love rival" to Tifa, which means that Tifa sees that Cloud's affection for Aerith is growing

That's not the only thing love rival means. They're both rivaling for Cloud's affection, are they not? It's possible it means that.

The 10th AU also says that Aerith is building a special bond with Cloud that is different from Tifa's relationship with him. One way that Tifa's relationship with Cloud could be different from his relationship to Aerith is that Tifa is a friend to Cloud, while Cloud and Aerith are building a relationship along romantic lines.

Or vise versa :awesome:

Notice, too, that the same passage says that Tifa's "complicated" feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith's death. In that case, it's possible that Cloud's love for Aerith has continued for the last two years.

Her complicated feelings are that she sees Aerith as a friend, but also as someone who brings Cloud great grief and guilt.

Another indication that Cloud and Aerith are developing a romantic relationship in FFVII is a quote from Aerith's info page in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Do you have an exact page number for this? I remember looking for this quote and being unable to find it, but it's 3 pages long it's kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack. I would like to know what the full quote is if you have it before I respond. If not, can you get a page number or more information about it so I can find it? Thanks.

The idea of Cloud and Aerith having a romantic relationship was also reinforced in the official novellas written by Nojima. In Case of Lifestream: White, there's one line that says this:

Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) (Note: "the woman" in this sentence clearly refers to Aerith.) ~Case of Lifestream: White

The word translated here as "lover" is koibito in Japanese. Koibito has several translations, including "lover", "sweetheart", and "boyfriend". All of these words would indicate that a mutual love exists between Cloud and Aerith. At times, however, the word koibito can also be translated as "beloved", which can mean that the affection is one-sided. Since there is no official translation for this story, it's not certain which translation SE intended for this passage.

No argument here.

Another quote reinforcing the idea of love existing between Cloud and Aerith is by Nomura in U.S. Playstation Magazine:

Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~ Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine, October 2002, page 139-140

Notice that Nomura specifically says that the ending of KH may answer some questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII. The scene of Cloud and Aerith reuniting at the end of KH happens after other characters in the story have been reunited with their lost loves - Aladdin finds Jasmine, Beast finds Beauty, Tarzan finds Jane, etc. The parallel is very clear, IMO, and Nomura specifically says that this scene is about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII.

Nomura also said about Cloud and Tifa in FFVII AC/C:
"Concerning the relationship between the two [Cloud and Tifa], I feel the movie is able to profoundly grasp the truth. It is simple to explain in words, but..."

Personally I feel Nomura is full of snot most of the time :monster:

but, at the end of the movie, Cloud is said to return to Tifa and the children. He takes time off from his job to spend time with his family. Nojima said that he knew for sure that Cloud and Tifa would be together (locations or not, that's a pretty important thing to know.) Tifa is someone's sweetheart in the movie. Tifa was left behind a man she was with in the movie... So maybe the movie answers that question?

People sometimes argue that Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud, or that Aerith only loves Cloud because he is so much like Zack. The idea that Aerith only loves Cloud because of Zack is disproved in Aerith's monologue from Dismantled that she loves Cloud much more than Zack:

At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.
But Cloud is clueless. Aerith's monologue in Gongaga, page 159, FFVII Dismantled

This is also reinforced by a statement in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Does Aerith know the real Cloud? Excerpts from official sources say that she does:

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If Aerith has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, then she obviously knows who the real Cloud is. Another quote from the FFVII UO:

So you won't have a breakdown..." - Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. ~page 156, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If Aerith's seen through to the essence of Cloud, then she's been able to perceive who Cloud really is. Another passage in the FFVII UO explains that Aerith is able to perceive the real Cloud due to her abilities as a Cetra:

I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a breakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. ~page 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

This passage states that she can see that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. The other two passages above go on to say that Aerith can perceive who Cloud really is. Therefore, we can definitely say that Aerith knows the real Cloud.

Okay so Aerith can tell Cloud isn't really Cloud, but none of those quotes seem to say she knows him that well. She knows the real Cloud is there, but that doesn't mean she knows the real Cloud. As Fairheartstrife said, being able to see Cloud isn't Cloud and being able to know the real Cloud are two different things. I see she's discovered the real Cloud exists, and that she sees through to his essence, and that she detected that the real Cloud was there... but I see nothing that says she knew him. In fact Maiden of the Planet seems to reinforce that she only sensed the real Cloud but didn't know him. Isn't there a line in there that says, "She finally knew the real Cloud?" What are your thoughts on this?

There's several indications of Cloud's affection for Aerith during the game, although many of them are under player control. However, we see evidence of his affection in this non-optional statement that Cloud makes in Cosmo Canyon when they are sitting around the campfire:

Aerith "I'm...... alone..... I'm all alone now..."
Cloud "But I'm..... we're here for you, right?" ~FFVII script, Disk One

Cloud says that he's there for Aerith, but changes it to "we" due to his lack of self-confidence.

Okay do you have evidence that says this is why he changed it to we?

Despite that, he starts the sentence with "I'm", which would indicate that he truly feels that *he* is there for her. Further evidence can be found in the game when Cait Sith makes his first prediction for Cloud when they meet in the Gold Saucer:

aannnnd thus we hit MY berserk button :monster:

I don't even know if I want to do this but okay....

The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."

As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 120

The accuracy of Cait Sith's predictions can't be argued here, since SE specifies what his prediction means - that Cloud "will lose something dear" *can* mean that Cloud loses something dear when Aerith is killed in the Forgotten City.

Wait whoa whoa... you left out a line here on that last one.

As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 120

The line you missed is:

それとも単に、仲間に加わる口実をひねり出すためもの？

"Or is this simply an excuse devised to be added to the group?"

So, no Square does not tell us what the meaning is. They say it COULD be this, it COULD be that, or it COULD be that he made it up to join the party. So yes we CAN question his accuracy.

For that matter, his official profile says this:

Cait Sith rides around on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life. Megaphone in hand, he's always shouting orders and creating dopey attacks. When his slot machine attack works, the enemy camp looks like an overturned toy box. His hobby is fortune-telling, but like his personality, it's pretty unreliable.

For that matter once again, his 10th AU profile repeats over and over that he lies about being a fortune teller. How can he be an accurate fortune teller if he really isn't one?

in FFVII:
神羅カンパニーの邪魔をするクラウドたちの行動を探るべく、占いマシーンを装って彼らに近づき無理やり同行。

In order to spy on Cloud and co, who are a hindrance to the Shinra Company, he approaches them pretending to be a fortune telling machine, and follows them by force.

ゴールドソーサーに設置された占いマシーンだと偽り「運勢を見る」と言って強引にクラウドに接近する

At the Gold Saucer, he falsely establishes himself as a fortune telling machine, "I'll see your fortune!" he says getting closer to Cloud by force.

and then we have this which tells us what he says in FFVII isn't reliable at all:

「FFVII」でケット・シーは、クラウドたちをゴールドソーサーで待ち伏せし「自分はここの占いマシーンだ」と自己紹介する. これは真っ赤なウソというわけでまなく、占いはもともとケット・シーの特技. 「FFVII」ではテキトーなことも言うが「BC」では目的地をピタリと当てるなど、並々ならぬ腕前を見せる

In FFVII, Cait Sith ambushes Cloud and co, introducing himself "I'm a fortune telling machine here!" As for this, it may not be a complete lie as division and Fortune Telling are originally Cait Sith's special skills. In FFVII, the things he says are random, but in BC, he exposes the place of destination exactly, displaying extraordinary skill.

So what he says in FFVII is random. The word I translated into "random" basically means he's making it up on the spot. How can it be both random/on the spot and accurate?

Now having said all this do you have ANY evidence that Cait Sith's predictions are accurate in FFVII? The only one I see that comes close is the one that has "deep meaning" but even a lie can have deep meaning. Can it not? I also see that it's his special skill, but the only place he shows skill is in BC. All I see is that he lied about being a fortune teller, his official profile which says he's unreliable and what he says in FFVII is random and he's making it up as he's going along.

[The FFVII UO goes on to say that Cait Sith's prediction in the Temple of Ancients refers to Cloud and Aerith's wedding:

The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.

The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.

Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 151

Once again, the accuracy of Cait Sith's prediction can't be argued here, since SE is telling us what Cait Sith's prediction means.

We don't need Square to tell us what his prediction means. It's pretty obvious XD Now maybe I missed it, but where does it say his prediction is accurate. They didn't get married. In fact, she died the next day. How does this make what he said accurate?

SE also tells us that Cait Sith is talking about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility. The FFVII UO says that Cait Sith's prediction is about Cloud and Aerith's wedding, which would definitely imply that they are in love with one another. Why would they get married if they weren't in love? Why would SE even suggest that Cloud and Aerith will get married if there is no romantic relationship between them?

But see...., they did NOT get married. She died. How can you possibly say his prediction was accurate when it didn't come true?

Also notice that the FFVII UO goes on to say that this "will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward" and that it "now becomes more painful" when Aerith is lost. The only way these predictions would be sad or painful is for those predictions to be true.

See, this is why this is my berserk button

They're NOT true. They did NOT get married. She died! He didn't see that one coming, obviously. His prediction is sad because she died and he had predicted a nice future for her. That's why it's sad. Cause she died.

In the same passage, the FFVII UO says "if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps" suggests that there may be hope for Cloud and Aerith's love despite her death. This is very similar to the commercial saying that FFVII is a story about a love that could never be. There may indeed be hope for their love if Aerith's spirit continues to be with Cloud, like we see in AC/ACC.

I guess I saw it as hope for the future as in they stop Sephiroth and stuff but that's just me.

More evidence for the Clerith perspective from Dismantled:

1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line “I’m searching for you” has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

In addition to that, the 20th Anniversary Ultimania says that Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud during the Clerith date scene:

During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud. ~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania

If Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud in the gondola, then she expresses her love for him. (Passages from FFVII Dismantled and the FFVII Ultimania Omega which confirm that Aerith loves Cloud are quoted above.)

Yes, Aerith loves Cloud, I won't argue with this. :monster:

Although neither source says that Cloud voices his feelings for Aerith during the Date scene, the fireworks after Aerith says that she wants to meet Cloud sure suggest that they kiss.

the fireworks after Aerith says that she wants to meet Cloud sure suggest that they kiss.

the fireworks ... suggest that they kiss.

So then... did Cloud and Barret kiss too? There's fireworks in that one :monster:

What about Tifa and Cloud :awesome:

How do the fireworks suggest they kiss ... I'm... you know what, never mind...

For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come. ~page 394, 20th Anniversary Ultimania
Scan: http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Al...tweenHeroes.jpg

Notice that the page says that the "love of the protagonists develop", which means that the love is reciprocal between the hero and heroine in the pictures shown on that page.

This page shows pictures of both the Cloud/Aerith date scene and the Highwind scene with Cloud/Tifa, so FFVII is the only Final Fantasy game with two pictures. FFVII is also the only game where it's specified in this book that both the Clerith date scene and the HW scene are optional.

All pictures shown on that page are of a mutual love between protagonists in different Final Fantasies, so it is confirmed on this page that a mutual love can exist between Cloud and Aerith, although it is under player control. There is no reason for all pictures on the page to show a mutual love except for the Cloud and Aerith picture. Therefore, this page confirms that a mutual love can exist between Cloud and Aerith, although it is optional to the player.

The same is shown for Cloud and Tifa. Once again, it is specified in this same book that the scenes shown for both Cloud and Aerith and for Cloud and Tifa are optional scenes and under player control.

Honestly I'm think this has been discussed to death right now so... but please answer one thing for me. What does the page say about Aerith specifically?

a.) It is non-optional for Cloud to say at the end of the game that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Clerith people believe that Cloud says this because he loves Aerith and wants to be with her again.
b.) The CloudxAerith date is the default date, as stated in FFVII Dismantled:

1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line “I’m searching for you” has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

c.) It is non-optional for Cloud to accept the date as payment for being Aerith's bodyguard.
d.) It is non-optional for Cloud to declare that he's Aerith's bodyguard in front of Tifa.
e.) It is non-optional for Cloud to show a great deal of caring for Aerith during the game.

So are you saying Aerith's date holds more weight because it's default? The default ending to FFX-2 has no Tidus... the canon one has Tidus.

f. It is non-optional for Cloud to say that Tifa's opinion is the only one that matters
g. It is non-optional for Cloud to say to Tifa that he will be happy to hear she has feelings for him in the lifestream
h. It is non-optional for Cloud to stay behind with Tifa on the highwind after saying they need to go find what's important to them
i. It is non-optional for Tifa to be embarrassed the next day after the nigh under the highwind.

Hey can you tell me why Tifa is embarrassed in the LA version? What's so bad about confirming friendship?

While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection

No.

In the first place, Cloud shoulders start heaving as though he is crying. This indicates that Cloud is in a great deal of pain and grief over her death. His extreme pain shows that he cares for Aerith very deeply.

Have you seen the ending to Crisis Core? He obviously cares for Zack deeply too. That's quite a scream he gives out.

In the second place, Cloud says, "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?". It's only logical that Cloud is talking about he and Aerith when he says "us" and asks what "we" are supposed to do.

The line where Cloud says, "Tell me, Aerith ----" would indicate that he is talking directly to Aerith during the death scene. If Cloud is talking directly to Aerith, then he is referring to them as a couple and asking about what's going to happen to their relationship now that she's dead.

Or sometime after she died maybe? He's speaking as if it happened a while ago, not as if it's happening right in front of him.

It would NOT be logical for Cloud's words to be asking what Avalanche is supposed to do without Aerith. At that point in the story, they haven't even learned about Holy, so there's no reason for Avalanche to think that they can't save the Planet without Aerith.

So he's saying, "What about me and my dead girlfriend? What are we supposed to do?"
Does that really make sense to you? I mean I can understand the "what about us" but the "What are we supposed to do?" doesn't make any sense at all.

In this passage, Cloud senses Aerith's presence even though he cannot see her. None of the other members of Avalanche sense her presence. Also, Cloud says, "I feel it in my soul". The suggestion that Cloud feels Aerith's presence in his soul implies that the two of them are soul mates.

Yes, Cloud says that Sephiroth is there, too. However, it could easily be that Aerith is the one who lets Cloud know that Sephiroth is there. After all, Cloud learned that Sephiroth was chasing Aerith in the dream that Aerith sent him while she was in the Sleeping Forest...

In this passage, Cloud once again senses Aerith's presence and hears her voice from a great distance. Cloud says he can hear her voice when he's near the entrance to the Forgotten City, but Aerith is in an underground temple located within a forest. The other members of Avalanche cannot hear her, so once again it is implied that there is a special bond between Cloud and Aerith.

TBH, I always thought that Aerith was somehow calling out to Cloud. It wouldn't surprise me if she could do that. I think the UO said something about this but I'm not sure... I posted it on your forum once, I should go find it.

At any rate, he also feels Sephiroth... which is Sephiroth's doing, right? So why can't him feeling Aerith be Aerith's doing?

Do Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in Disk Two?

Did we establish that he had feelings or her in Disc 1? I mean there was an attraction but okay then...

Notice that the passage starts with Tifa's talking about *consoling* Cloud after Aerith's death. That means that he is grieving over the loss of Aerith,

and so was everyone else, Tifa included :monster:

and that her death is still a source of pain for him. Tifa says that Cloud lost Aerith, which means that it is a very personal loss for Cloud. It also reminds us of Cait Sith's prediction in the Gold Saucer that Cloud "will lose something dear".

You mean that prediction that he used to infiltrate Avalanche? :monster:

Immediately after Tifa talks about consoling Cloud, she says "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of himself also seemed lost". Therefore, in that context, the passage seems to mean that a piece of Cloud seems lost because he has lost Aerith. Once again, this would imply that Cloud is and was in love with Aerith.

No he lost Aerith AND a piece of him. Not Aerith who WAS a piece of him. The other part he lost was his sanity.

Then there's stuff about remembering Aerith, they all did so I'm not going to respond to that really hard.

Although it's never specified what Cloud's "personal memory" is, it can easily be interpreted that Cloud's memory is Aerith. After all, he just got through saying that he's fighting to save the Planet, and that's what Aerith tried to do. Cloud promised in the Forgotten City to do the rest for her. So Aerith could easily be that personal memory.

Could be, or it could be one of the many personal memories we saw in the Lifestream event, ergo stuff about Tifa. These memories were said to be important so, it could be one of those too. Hell it could be he wants to avenge his home town.

Since hand reach scenes have been used by SE to show a romantic connection in other games, then the hand reach scene in FFVII could easily mean the same thing.

Okay we're in KH now. It's already been talked about but Sora and Riku have many o handreach scenes. Hell Cloud and Barret have a hand reach scene in FFVII AC. So I don't think this is the best argument.

Do Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in Advent Children/Complete? A number of official quotes reinforce that idea:

I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview, Dengeki Playstation

Yes, feelings of guilt.

But Cloud is still filled with remorse, haunted by the events of his past. (Reunion Files page 6)

The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself (Reunion Files page 9)

A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~Aerith's profile, DoC game manual

The phrase "engraved in one's heart" is often used in literature to mean that someone is in love with another.

And in Japan it means just what the official translation said, that he'll never forget her :monster:

I notice that now we suddenly aren't using official translations anymore :awesomonster:

Nomura also said that Aerith is in Cloud's heart in this interview:

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

Okay Nomura did not sit down at an interview table and say, "okay guys, it mentions the face of appearance that even now live in Cloud's heart..." he just didn't. He's weird but not that weird. Can you please get the actual quote for this?

Aerith is also said to live on in all of her friend's hearts.

It's pretty obvious that SE is showing the main hero and heroine of the game and movie along with the antagonist on Disks 1, 2, and 3. If Tifa were considered the main heroine and love interest, it's only logical that she would be pictured on the three main disks rather than Aerith. Instead, Tifa is pictured on Disk 4 along with the other members of Avalanche.

Wait, so the main heroine has to be the love interest of the main hero? Where is this stated?

And what are your thoughts on this?

keychains

official FFVII playarts booklet

C/T & Z/A matching bases

Or this?

Notice Cloud and Tifa next to CC Aerith and Zack.

How about the official arrangement of the coke cans?

Or the Cloud and Tifa figures being next to each other in the 10th AU... (Do you want a scan? I'm too lazy to scan it now but it's there :monster:

)

If Aerith lives on inside of Cloud, then she is always with him. This could indeed be possible, since Cloud was saturated with Mako (Lifestream) by Hojo. Since Aerith's spirit and consciousness now exist in the Lifestream, I would think that there's enough Lifestream in Cloud for Aerith's spirit to actually exist there.

I notice a couple sentences down you post this:
And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---

So your theory is that Aerith's spirit is inside of Cloud, but this says her spirit goes back to the lifestream where it belongs... and it specifically says the flow around the planet. Now do you have any evidence that Aerith is inside Cloud, or do you think he just means "she lives in him" like Mufasa lives in Simba. Since that quote specifically says she's in the lifestream that goes around the planet.

It is also notable that Cloud is shown during both Safe and Sound, the final FMV of Advent Children Complete, as well as during Calling, the final FMV of Advent Children, as riding through flower fields rather than returning to the Seventh Heaven.

Okay at the end of Reminiscence, Cloud calls Tifa and tells her to cancel his deliveries for tomorrow and that he'll see her soon. So, this to me makes it sound like he IS going home to 7th heaven. For that matter, there's a couple quotes that says Cloud returns to Tifa and the Children at the end of AC/C.

· AC – Edge~Midgar
With the help of his friends, he defeated Bahamut SHIN, which Kadaj’s gang had summoned. He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.

· AC – Midgar
Together with her companions, they crushed Bahamut SHIN, which had been summoned by Kadaj. She went to welcome Cloud who had returned after settling his personal battle.

There's absolutely nothing that says he met up with Aerith. Sure he's riding around areas that have flowers that remind him of her, but nothing says he actually meets up with her. So I've provided two quotes, and the end of Reminiscence that say he's going to see Tifa. Do you have any actual evidence that he actually met with Aerith?

The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church, so her church is Cloud's Promised Land. Therefore, the ending scene of ACC is showing Cloud's Promised Land, a place that he clearly associates with Aerith. This is significant because at the end of FFVII, Cloud said this after the hand reach scene:

"The place where he awakens is the Promised Land" is the title of that section. The 10th AU is full of this stuff. All of the first couple lines are just the titles of that section. The rest of the text explains the title. So it goes onto explain WHY it's his promised land. There's no mention of because he thinks about Aerith when he's there. It does however mention he's meant to live with his family (because this is where he returns as I've quoted above) and that he is free of his guilt and able to forgive himself.

The passage says that Cloud *no longer* has to suffer in loneliness now that he has found Aerith again. This clearly insinuates that Cloud was actually feeling lonely during the two years after FFVII, but that he no longer feels lonely after finding Aerith again.

Or the happier he got the more lonely he became like Nomura said. He specifically said in distance that the Happier he was, the more lonely he became. The same thing you quoted also said that Cloud realizes where he's meant to live and talks about his family. Wouldn't it stand to reason that he was lonely because he was spending time away from them, and thus he was lonely.

If Cloud found Aerith in the Promised Land during Advent Children, then he found the part of himself that had been missing for the last two years. He has been reunited with Aerith, his true love.

But that didn't mean Aerith was a part of him. Again they were two separate things. The part of him that he lost was his sanity.

I think I got everything... yep that was a waste of three hours :awesome:

I would like a response to this though, but I don't need it right this second. So take your time. If it takes a couple weeks even, that's fine. But i would like to have a response from you sometime in the future. Thanks.

Master Bates · Sep 29, 2011

All I can say is, when we are finally down to commercials, trailers, and merchandise, then this has got to be very serious business.

Discord said:
Or this?

Notice Cloud and Tifa next to CC Aerith and Zack.

Silly Q. Look closely how Cloud and Aerith are looking lovingly at each other, with Cloud having his back on Tifa. Subtle hint.

Wait, so the main heroin has to be the love interest of the main hero? Where is this stated?

I see whut you did thar. :awesome:

Dashell · Sep 29, 2011

Master Bates said:
I see whut you did thar.

Dammit, I was hoping I fixed that before anyone saw it XD

Vendel · Sep 29, 2011

Chantara said:
No one's been proven correct because SE hasn't said which couple is canon. Despite what you are all saying, the "For the One I Love" page is simply saying that who Cloud loves is optional to the player. It does not make Cloti canon.

Point of order. Where on that page does it say C/T is optional? Is it in the same place that talks about Aerith?

I also feel the need to point something out that has probably been pointed out a million times. But does it not bother you that large swaths of your clerith material is a commercial, merchandise and AU games like KH?

And I can counter that entire essay with something as simple as "She [Tifa] and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC."

Celes Chere · Sep 29, 2011

the lovely and talented Tiff

It's true

And a few things I want to address that Quex did not:

the love of Romeo and Juliet

Who both died.... and never continued a relationship afterwards. It seems strange to me that when Aerith dies, Cloud can't move on because he's supposedly still in love with her even though she passed. . . However it's not possible that Aerith continued to love Zack after he died? Now, I just don't see the logic in that.

Aerith offers Cloud a date

She was mimicking Zack. Look at this quote:

Repeating Zack’s look with Cloud’s.

Being an Ancient, Aerith did her utmost to save the Planet, even sacrificed life—in FF7, the impression of Aerith being such a tragic heroine is strong. Nevertheless, the most significant link to FF7 is the conversations about Cloud. The reason why she’s a flower girl when she first meets Cloud, the beginning of love with her first love, Zack, and the reason she saw Zack in Cloud—all those things we don’t know in FF7 are made clear in CC.

Text: Aerith asks Cloud to be her bodyguard. Does her “one date” as the payment repeat what Zack used to say to her?

I'd also like to point out that FFVII does have canon love - Zerith. Whether you believe it's just in the past, it was canon then. They're told us the two were in love. So we can see that SE clearly has no problem saying that couples ARE in love. There are no quotes like that for Cloud and Aerith BOTH. Cloud and Aerith never shared mutual feelings, and Aerith is not the one that understands Cloud more than any other woman. And that's not my opinion, that's been quoted.

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game

It also says "While Jenova is still in control of his mind"

While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection

Blatantly, how? And if you believe that, then it should be proof that the HA scene is canon as in further works it is stated that they share their thoughts and feelings, realize their feelings, and share mutual feelings. Surely you don't believe they shared mutual feelings of rejection? Because that doesn't add up. Cloud wouldn't be feeling rejected.

Cloud senses Aerith's presence even though he cannot see her.

He also sense Sephiroth in his soul so... I guess that makes Que happy lol. Are Cloud and Sephiroth also implied soul mates? Also, Cloud heard Tifa's heart calling out to him and yet they are not soul mates to you. why is that?

Dashell · Sep 29, 2011

He also sense Sephiroth in his soul so... I guess that makes Que happy lol.

Very happy :awesome:

It also says "While Jenova is still in control of his mind"

She's talking about a different quote here, one I'm unfamiliar with which is why I'd like a page number to find it.

Also, Cloud heard Tifa's heart calling out to him and yet they are not soul mates to you. why is that?

Heart mates? :awesomonster:

Celes Chere · Sep 29, 2011

lolol heart mates. xD I'm going to use that... somewhere.

Celes Chere · Sep 29, 2011

What even IS Dismantled and where can I read it? O_o; I mean I see the Clerith quotes in, but I have this odd suspicion that there are other parts in this book(?) that are being left out.

Ryushikaze · Sep 29, 2011

Right, so I'm gonna respond to the more recent post first, then the essay. I'm going to snip some sections of the essay for space, but I WILL try and indicate when I have done so. ADDENDUM: Didn't snip much. Mostly images.

Chantara said:
Fairheartstrife

I could say the exact same thing about Cloti evidence.

IMO, the evidence in my essay has NOT been disproven, but Cloti evidence has been disproven.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them, and they don't mean much without support.
In this thread, and many times before, it has been pointed out that you rely heavily on Commercials and Merchandise as evidence, and that these are not reliable sources of information in the slightest.
Incidentally, it's not the evidence which is mostly the problem with the essay, it is the leaps in logic which happen frequently.

That's why Cleriths don't want to get in LT debates any more. We've all heard the same stuff over and over. We don't believe Cloti evidence. Cloti's don't believe our evidence. We think Cloti evidence is wrong. You think Clerith evidence is wrong.

As I think I can show in your essay, some of it is AMAZINGLY wrong. Period, end of, even ignoring the whole LT thing.

No one's been proven correct because SE hasn't said which couple is canon. Despite what you are all saying, the "For the One I Love" page is simply saying that who Cloud loves is optional to the player. It does not make Cloti canon.

You are claiming this, but this claim does not bear out. It does not say there is any option to confirm feelings with Tifa beneath the highwind as far as the narrative is concerned. It does say there is one as regards the date.
Anastar, you argue that this page says 'Who Cloud loves is optional' but your essay argues that Cloud loving Aerith isn't. This looks for all the world to be a very curious bit of doublespeak. Could you elaborate on why you think these two statements do not contradict?

Gym Leader Devil
This is all I'm going to copy from your analysis of my essay because you're saying essentially the same thing as Fairheartstrife said: you all think it's been disproven. I don't think it's been disproven. What I seem to recognize and you don't is that this is merely your opinion vs. my opinion. None of what you said and none of what I said has not been proven or disproven as actual fact. It's all interpretation.

Since folks have been talking about things that set them off, here's one of mine. 'Opinion' is no defense of an argument. In fact, it's an admission of failure. 'It's all Interpretation' is likewise a giant weasel phrase. There are serious flaws with the evidence you present. In fact, there are such serious flaws with some of your evidence, that there's a TV TROPES page cautioning people not to do what you have done and use by using them to influence your thoughts on the finished product.

Discord

I'm going to focus on responding to you, since at least you listen.

I'm not sure who said this to you, and I'm not about to swim through pages of this thread to find out. However, this person missed the whole point. No, I am not saying that Aerith knew the real Cloud because of what she said on the date. I actually gave three quotes from the FFVII Ultimania Omega saying that Aerith knew the real Cloud. Those quotes do not say that Aerith only knew Cloud on the Date.

I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a breakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. ~page 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

That says that Aerith knew Cloud because of her inherent ability, which means that her abilities as a Cetra allowed her to know the real Cloud. Now, since Aerith can't turn her abilities as a Cetra on and off just like you can't turn your sense of smell on and off, that means her abilities as a Cetra were working when she first met him and continued working whenever she spent time with him. So she knew the real him long before the Date.

No, it says she knows Cloud isn't the real him because of her abilities. It does not say that she knows the real him. Your conclusion is exegesis and not supported by the text. Actually, basically, none of that is supported by the text.
Of course, if Aerith can't turn her powers off, Ever, she should know Zack's dead, too. But more on that if it becomes relevant.

If that's what people think I'm saying, then they really need to read my posts more carefully.

If it was an isolated occurrence, perhaps. But this is pretty much everyone getting that read off the post. Perhaps the issue actually is with the way you are phrasing things.

Ryushikaze
Then why don't you link me to those posts. I am on a 56K modem with a phone line connection. So far, I've spent an hour and a half on this much of my post. I haven't even found Gym Leader Devil's response to my post to him/her yesterday. I also cannot read the normal font on this forum without highlighting it because of poor eyesight ant night blindness which doesn't allow me to see contrast easily. I've had 3 operations on my eyes and I was totally blind in one eye for over 2 years.

One of the posts you responded to half of before abandoning. You were linked to it. The biggest part of the post was then reposted for your multiple times.
My sympathies for your condition, but that simply does not excuse ignoring well over half of Tres's response, or an entire one of mine. I'm still curious what accusations and slander I made in the post that was skipped and why such things warrant being ignored.
If you are having speed and vision issues due to the forum, do as I do, and compose your responses in a basic text editor. I don't even have vision problems. It's just more convenient. For you it should work wonders. Plus, you can save a response and come back to it later.

Quit being so ready to criticize people who are trying as best they can.

I'm not criticizing you. I am pointing out that you have been failing to respond to numerous responses to the points you raise, and requests for clarification. Hell, Quex did more to elaborate on your position than you did. That's why Tres got angry and why he made the BIG GIANT UNDERLINE SENTENCE OF DOOM. So you wouldn't ignore it. And then you did. You responded to the post it was in and then STOPPED the moment that chunk of text showed up.

Ariadne

Let's try this once again:
Okay, I just found this after being here for an hour and a half. Once again, you're claiming that all I do is ignore your points when I don't even know what points I'm supposedly ignoring.

Anastar, that was IN A POST YOU RESPONDED TO and Quoted for you IN OTHER RESPONSES, at least one of which you saw. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that it's being ignored.

Yes, I saw your point about Shadow. Very honestly, I don't see how that proves anything about the Highwind scene. What you said about Shadow means that that scene has a canon ending. How does one scene with a canon ending mean that all scenes have a canon ending? That's like saying if one steak is cooked medium rare, then all steaks are cooked medium rare.

That is not Tres's argument, or the point for this. He is not saying that all optional outcomes MUST have a canon version. He is saying that YOU cannot argue the reverse.

I gave you examples of several scenes that do not have canon endings, such as whether or not Cloud buys a flower from Aerith, who Cloud gives the flower to, and who Don Corneo picks as a date. I could go on with more examples, but that's enough to show that not all scenes have canon endings. If not all scenes have canon endings, then it's not definite that the HW scene has a canon ending UNLESS there is something in the game that would indicate that it does. I see nothing in FFVII, the novella's, the movie, or DoC that gives definite evidence that Cloud loves Tifa. Therefore, neither version is canon. SE has also never stated that the HW scene has a canon ending. Therefore, there is no proof that the HW scene has a canon ending.

That's the best I can answer you on the subject, Tres. Sorry if it's not good enough for you.

It won't be, and I can very easily tell you why. None of that addresses that Tres is reacting to the fact that you seem to be dismissing the idea of a canon Highwind scene SIMPLY BECAUSE there is optionality involved. He then challenged you to be more productive

Okay, that's not what you meant. Now, can you try focusing on the point I was making about why I do not think the HW scene has a canon outcome?

Uh. We have. Several times.

I have made this point before, and I've yet to see you or Ryu respond to it. Page 232 specifically says that Cloud and Tifa share strong feelings in the High Affection version only. IMO, that does not mean the HW scene has a canon ending.

You've... NOT SEEN...
I even argued that that can be used to demonstrate that the High Highwind IS canon.

If strong feelings are shared in the High Affection version only, then the same feelings are not shared in the Low Affection version. The FFVII UO says that the feelings shared in the Low Affection version are "apathetic". Let's look at the meaning of "apathetic":di ence.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic

apathetic - adjective

1. having or showing little or not emotion; apathetic behavior
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive; an apathetic audience

If one person is not interested in the other, then they do not share romantic feelings for each other. If two people are indifferent to one another and unresponsive to one another, then they have no romantic interest in each other.

So they share their mutual feelings of no feelings? They confirm their indifference? People have responded several times to express how ridiculous the idea of people realizing their indifference for each and then deciding to live together and start a family is.
By the way, please, do cite that the UO says the FEELING are apathetic, and not the SCENE, which is what I recall the UO saying there.
But this argument is nonsense for several reasons. Even ignoring the entire question of romance, in no way, shape, form, or small european dictatorship are the feelings Cloud and Tifa have for each other Apathetic. This does not mesh with the scenes before it, after it, quotes in the ultimanias, nothing. At the VERY least, they care for each other. At the VERY least, Tifa is an important woman to Cloud.

Plus, the very name of the Low Affection version given by SE is "Low Affection" version. Low Affection means Low Affection.

Because it couldn't have anything to do with the affection value itself. Nosiree.

If Tifa has a zero affection score for Cloud, then she has no affection for him. Now, I thought how the Date Mechanism works is quite obvious. You can see a full accounting of it here:

http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

Now, Aerith's affection level for Cloud grows higher when Cloud is nice to her. Same with Tifa. Aerith's affection level for Cloud grows lower when Cloud is not nice to her. Same with Tifa.

And Barret's grows when you give flowers to Marlene.
Oh, and Tifa's also grows when you can head up a train.
And Yuffie's rises when you ignore her, brush her off, and then do it again! Man, strange ass people with their utterly arbitrary reasons for liking Cloud more.

The more Cloud is nice to Aerith/Tifa, the more their affection for him grows. It's logical that the nicer Cloud is to Aerith/Tifa, then the more Cloud's affection for Aerith/Tifa grows. Simple.

So what is going on is that the feelings are mutual.

For example:
If Tifa is chosen as the Don's date: "You all right?" (+3 Aeris) "We gotta help Tifa!" (-2 Aeris)

Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

Aerith's affection for Cloud gains 3 points if Cloud shows concern for Aerith. If he shows more concern for Aerith, then he likes her more.
Aerith's affection level for Cloud loses two points if he shows more concern for Tifa. If he shows more concern for Tifa, then he likes Tifa more.

That was, in point of fact, the WORST example you could have chosen. And the reason for that is Tifa's response when Aerith is the date.
If Aeris is chosen as the Don's date:
"You all right?" (-2 Tifa)
"We've gotta help Aeris!!" (+3 Tifa)
(Yes, it *is* that way around. Don't ask me why....)

Here, Tifa likes Cloud less for caring about her, and more for caring about Aerith.

Also, because lying and saying Barret is the name of Femcloud's Boyfriend nets the real Barret more affection for Cloud by your logic. And Cloud gives Marlene a flower because of how much he likes Barret. If you respond that you're interested to the guy at Ft. Condor and agree to help, you like everyone a bit more, but Barret the most by this logic.

In fact, the entire mechanism is full of bizarre things like that. Trusting Tifa when you meet Red nets her -2, not +2. Trying to assign REAL narrative significance to this game mechanic is just silly.
It'd be like treating HP as real and expecting numbers to pop up over Cloud's head every time he stubs his toe.

The feelings are obviously reciprocal.

So, by not getting Yuffie into my party until the 8th attempt, Cloud's REALLY got the hots for her? She gets +2 for each correct response and it doesn't reset if you fail, so I got 64 points for her from repeatedly failing to ignore her instead of name her. Cloud REALLY likes people who rob him blind and take his stuff.

- It's now three hours since I started this post, and I haven't even looked for Gym Leader Devil's response to my post yesterday. I have no more time for tonight.
I didn't read the rest of your post yet, so I've answered what I could.

Since you're feeling that I'm not answering you, maybe you should send me your posts in PM. Then I could answer your posts completely. If you want, you could post what you send me along with my responses in this thread.

Then you would know that I'm not ignoring you, and hopefully everything will get answered.

Quexinos asked me to respond to several things, but sorry Quex - I'm out of time for tonight.

You are under no time pressure to respond. Only pressure to respond honestly and comprehensively.

Now, as mentioned, I'm going to be SNIP in large parts of this response, but noting when I do so.

Chantara said:
FFVII and AC/ACC from the Clerith perspective
by Anastar

-SNIP COMMERCIAL-

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love. Furthermore, the voice over saying, "the story of a love that could never be" would mean that FFVII is a story about the love of Cloud and Aerith.

I already posted This particular post right here which should explain why this argument is nonsense. If that does not, Quex has recreated the Parade of Final Fantasy Wrongness I collated awhile back in her own response to your post.
Suffice to say, why would they do it? To attract attention. Because commercials lie. And this isn't the first time that this has been pointed out, either. I know it's been pointed out to you many times before, including long before the several times in this exchange. That you continue to use as a basis something as notorious for lying is, well, distressing as a start, to say the least.

Although some people say that the phrase "a love that could never be" means that the love can never exist, it's been verified for us at allexperts.com that the phrase is actually talking about a love that exists despite circumstances that would normally prevent it. Here's a link to their answer:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing...ning-phrase.htm

Furthermore, "a love that could never be" is often used in reference to the love of Romeo and Juliet. If you look the phrase up on Google, you can see how many times it's used to describe the love of Romeo and Juliet:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&s...c5229e2e8efe107

As mentioned in my previous post:

Me from the post just linked said:
No, A love that can never be- and this is granting arguendo that the love discussed is mutual- is one that is prevented from actually happening. That's what happened to Romeo and Juliet. Their love couldn't be and it was undone. They both bit it at the end of the play. Incidentally, this is a phrase that does not appear in the body of the play at all. I've also seen it used in other forms, where a low class woman regretted that her love for an upperclass man could never be because of societal issues. It's not always discussing people already in love, though I do not deny it can be.-SNIP- I don't think anyone is actually saying it's 'prevented from ever being love,' we're saying 'it's prevented from ever being practically realized.' And if it is capable, then it's not a love that can never be, which kinda makes bringing the commercial a bad move for you. If the love can never be, then it can't be recognized post mortem.
But again, it is commercial, so I guess you think Tina Branford really DID visit Tokyo in the mid 90s in a Magitek Armor and Mog really was responsible for Zapping monsters in the FF3us game cart. [facetiousexcitement]MAYBE THE TWO ARE RELATED![/facetiousexcitement]

And I gotta stress, yet an Nth time- COMMERCIAL.

In the same commercial, SE also talks about Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth, which is saying that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are the exact opposite of his feelings for Sephiroth: who Cloud loves vs. who Cloud hates. In the same commercial, Tifa is only seen with the other members of Avalanche under the title of "Friendship".

I'm noting you neglect to mention the specific wording of the hate here. Quex has noted the actual argument, I'll note that omitting 'hate that always was' comes across as disingenuous.

It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead. Furthermore, the idea that love can continue beyond death is also proven by Yuna's continuing love for Tidus in FFX-2.

Not sure if this is disingenuous argument or simply comparing apples and oranges.
Yuna was not dating Tidus when he was 'unreal.' Edward and Anna do not continue to date after her demise. Even granting for the sake of argument that there is a love, that doesn't make post mortem romance possible.

Another piece of evidence for Cloud and Aerith's love is that the only male/female figurine made by SE for FFVII is of Cloud and Aerith:

-IMG SNIP-

Now, this is an interesting claim. Not a compelling one- It's merch, for crying out loud- but interesting because you claim it's the only one, but don't seem to provide a method to check for this.

This is significant because SE only makes male/female figurines and statues of romantic pairings, such as FFVIII's Squall/Rinoa, FFXII's Balthier/Fran, FFIX's Zidane/Garnet, Chrono Trigger's Chrono/Marle, Kingdom Hearts's Kairi/Sora, and CC's Zack/Aerith. As well, a figurine made by SE for Advent Children shows Cloud standing in Aerith's church:

-IMG SNIP-

Would you mind providing examples of these other figurines and statues? And explaining the C/T figurines with the paired bases? And basically everything in OWD's post here? And what of couples who have no figurines?

Although the figure of Aerith isn't actually there, she is obviously represented by the light streaming down on Cloud, the flowers at his feet, and the floorboards of her Church. Since other figures and cold-cast statues made by SE for their games always show a male/female romantic pairing, then the statues of Cloud/Aerith must also show a romantic pairing.

Again, this argument rests on an unfounded assertion. Specifically "figures and cold-cast statues made by SE for their games always show a male/female romantic pairing"

There are also many hints of Cloud and Aerith's feelings for one another in the dialogue of FFVII. Cloud's monologue in Dismantled shows his attraction to her when they first meet:

Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
.......
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. ~FFVII Dismantled

Yeah. No one's saying the man hated her or that she's repulsive. We're asking for evidence of romantic intent. Someone innocent in a dystopian cyberpunk city's notable REGARDLESS. Additionally, you omitted the portion of that sequence where Cloud compares her innocence to his own lack of innocence. Why do that?

Later in the game, Cloud falls through the roof of Aerith's church. Aerith offers Cloud a date in exchange for Cloud being her bodyguard and Cloud accepts. It seems fairly obvious that Aerith wouldn't offer a date in exchange for Cloud being her bodyguard unless Aerith was attracted to Cloud, and that Cloud wouldn't accept that as payment unless he was attracted to Aerith.

He doesn't exactly 'accept' it though. He makes a hand waving motion in front of his face and then the turks interrupt. In addition, this date is a deliberate copy of Zack's first meeting with Aerith, only she's the one offering. (For real world continuity sticklers, the CC date references this, but to the same purpose- to show the continued influence of Z on A).

It's also obvious that Aerith is significant to Cloud when she is kidnapped by Shinra and taken to Hojo's lab. In the first place, Aerith is the first thing on Cloud's mind after she is kidnapped:

(Barret faces Cloud, whose back is still turned.)
Barret "An' what about you?"
(Cloud looks up, still not turning.)
Cloud "..........."
(He leaves the playground.)
Barret "Yo!"
"Where's he think he's goin'?"
Tifa "Oh! Aerith!"
Barret '"Oh yeah, that girl. What's up with her?"
Tifa "...I don't really know... But she's the one I left Marlene with."
Barret "Damn! Marlene!!" ~FFVII Script, Disk One

Cloud leaves for Aerith's house after saying only a few words to Barret after the tower blows up. Therefore, Aerith is obviously the first thing on Cloud's mind. That's reinforced by Cloud's monologue in FFVII Dismantled soon after the tower blows up:

Cloud: If only she was not involved in this battle, between me and Shinra…..
Aerith’s mother told us that she’s a foster child. And because she’s the last survival of “the Ancents,” Shinra was after her since she’s little.
So far, it seemed the Turks had never tried to forcibly take her away in violent manner. They just persistently asked for her cooperation.
But, Shinra was entirely impetuous this time.
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means! ~FFVII Dismantiled

Again, no one says Cloud hates her. But Cloud didn't want her involved in the fight from the start. He tries to leave her behind and get to Tifa. As soon as Cloud thinks Tifa is in trouble, he drops everything and wants to go after her, telling Aerith to go home. He agrees to dress in drag for Tifa's sake. So Cloud's jonesing for both ladies.

Once they break into Hojo's lab to rescue Aerith in the Shinra building, there's even more evidence of a relationship developing between Cloud and Aerith:

I'd like to point out this is still less than 24 hours after they have met. Just to be clear here.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she [Tifa] inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

That passage in the Ultimania is obviously talking about this scene in the Shinra jail after they rescue Aerith, since Tifa shows how irritated she is when she learns that Cloud has promised Aerith a date:

Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"
Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"
Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right."
(She swings her legs over the side of the cot.)
Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
(She walks to the door of her cell.)
Aerith "The deal was for one date, right?"
(Tifa sits up.)
Tifa "............oh, I get it." ~FFVII script, Disk One

Er, one. Cloud never promised a date. Even if he AGREED to that payment, AERITH is the one promising, it's HER payment, SHE promises payment for services rendered.
For two, the word 'promise' isn't used. A less notable point than one, but still.

The idea that Tifa sees Cloud and Aerith developing a close bond together is further reinforced in two other places in FFVII Dismantled:

It’s just that... I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder… ~Tifa's monologue, Don Corneo's mansion, FFVII Dismantled

She's Jealous because they're good friends. And then notes she became fond of her too. So she's jealous because they're friends.

Cloud and Aerith sometimes cause Tifa's jealous feelings to show through. ~Tifa's profile, FFVII Dismantled

The idea that Cloud and Aerith cause Tifa to get jealous suggests that something between Cloud and Aerith is making Tifa jealous. What could that be? One thing that could make Tifa jealous is that she sees a romantic relationship building between Cloud and Aerith. That same idea is repeated in Tifa's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

Or it could be Tifa is insecure on this front and is jealous of nothing. You keep offering us 'could's' and conclude with 'is' I note. While this isn't bad on its own, you're never really supporting the 'could' aspect over other possibilities.

A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she [Tifa] feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.~Tifa's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 42-47

As you can see, the 10th AU specifically says that Aerith is a "love rival" to Tifa, which means that Tifa sees that Cloud's affection for Aerith is growing.

NO. FULL STOP. FULL REVERSE. We are not taking the HMS Leap of Logic out to sea today.
What 'LOVE RIVAL' means is that AERITH is interested in the same man that TIFA is. That's ALL. You have lept from this to 'Tifa sees that Cloud's affection for Aerith is growing' based on all of NOTHING.

quote]The 10th AU also says that Aerith is building a special bond with Cloud that is different from Tifa's relationship with him. One way that Tifa's relationship with Cloud could be different from his relationship to Aerith is that Tifa is a friend to Cloud, while Cloud and Aerith are building a relationship along romantic lines.[/quote]

Or the exact opposite could be the case. Tifa could be the romance and Aerith the friend.

Notice, too, that the same passage says that Tifa's "complicated" feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith's death. In that case, it's possible that Cloud's love for Aerith has continued for the last two years.

The reasons for those complicated feelings are related to way Cloud blames himself and is self destructing as a result. Not because she's stealing Cloud's love away.

Another indication that Cloud and Aerith are developing a romantic relationship in FFVII is a quote from Aerith's info page in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Which of the headings is this? Could you be more specific? If genuine, this would actually be your best evidence yet. And for awhile.

The idea of Cloud and Aerith having a romantic relationship was also reinforced in the official novellas written by Nojima. In Case of Lifestream: White, there's one line that says this:

Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) (Note: "the woman" in this sentence clearly refers to Aerith.) ~Case of Lifestream: White

The word translated here as "lover" is koibito in Japanese. Koibito has several translations, including "lover", "sweetheart", and "boyfriend". All of these words would indicate that a mutual love exists between Cloud and Aerith. At times, however, the word koibito can also be translated as "beloved", which can mean that the affection is one-sided. Since there is no official translation for this story, it's not certain which translation SE intended for this passage.

Right. Before I go into this one, I had better never, ever, EVER see you arguing that the RF quote means 'nice person.' EVER. I will be required by the spirit of linguistics and common decency to go category five apeshit.
That said, yes, that is the definition of Koibito. Funny how it got so much easier to realize once it helped your side.
So, in turn- Cloud was oblivious of Aerith's intentions while she was alive. Lover and thus Boyfriend are omitted- You can't be someone's lover or boyfriend without awareness that they like you. One can be someone's sweetheart and beloved without being aware of things. This is the meaning of the word that doesn't contradict what we have had established regarding Cloud's knowledge of Aerith's intent.
I also have two other points to make here.
The woman is never called Aerith, and Tifa is also called someone's Beloved or Lover.
Now, we conclude this woman is Aerith because parsimoniously, we can conclude that woman must be someone with a relation to the story and an affection for Cloud. And who isdead. This takes it down to Aerith and Jessie. It's more likely it's Aerith, for several reasons. Thus, we conclude it's Aerith.
Now, Tifa is someone's beloved. We'll use beloved for now. That makes her the object of the affection. So someone loves Tifa. It does not say who. But we can use parsimony to conclude that as it refers to the present Tifa and in reunion files, that it's relevant to someone in the movie. We'll assume it's a man because Tifa's hetero by all evidence and there's no indication of any men ever being interested in her.

Another quote reinforcing the idea of love existing between Cloud and Aerith is by Nomura in U.S. Playstation Magazine:

Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~ Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine, October 2002, page 139-140

Notice that Nomura specifically says that the ending of KH may answer some questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII.

Notice he says 'MAY.' Notice the presence of a WEASEL WORD.

The scene of Cloud and Aerith reuniting at the end of KH happens after other characters in the story have been reunited with their lost loves - Aladdin finds Jasmine, Beast finds Beauty, Tarzan finds Jane, etc. The parallel is very clear, IMO, and Nomura specifically says that this scene is about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII.

The scene happens immediately between Pinnochio and Jheppetto and Chip and Dale. The parallel is clear alright. Clearly filial.

People sometimes argue that Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud, or that Aerith only loves Cloud because he is so much like Zack. The idea that Aerith only loves Cloud because of Zack is disproved in Aerith's monologue from Dismantled that she loves Cloud much more than Zack:

At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.
But Cloud is clueless. Aerith's monologue in Gongaga, page 159, FFVII Dismantled

"I totally am not asserting things without merit simply because I believe them to be true"- Also entirely possible.
Aerith thinking she loves Cloud more than Zack doesn't mean she 'loves Cloud for Cloud.' Heck, it almost reads as a self-affirmation speech, trying to convince herself she does.

This is also reinforced by a statement in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

She's interested in the real Cloud. Does she know him? We can't say that from here.

Does Aerith know the real Cloud? Excerpts from official sources say that she does:

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If Aerith has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, then she obviously knows who the real Cloud is. Another quote from the FFVII UO:

So you won't have a breakdown..." - Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. ~page 156, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If Aerith's seen through to the essence of Cloud, then she's been able to perceive who Cloud really is. Another passage in the FFVII UO explains that Aerith is able to perceive the real Cloud due to her abilities as a Cetra:

I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a breakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. ~page 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

This passage states that she can see that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. The other two passages above go on to say that Aerith can perceive who Cloud really is. Therefore, we can definitely say that Aerith knows the real Cloud.

No. It means we can say she knows of the Real Cloud, is aware of the real Cloud, but it does not indicate she actually KNOWS the real Cloud. Aerith's own dialogue indicates she only knows of the real Cloud, since she expressed a desire to meet the real him, something she would not need to do if she already did.

There's several indications of Cloud's affection for Aerith during the game, although many of them are under player control. However, we see evidence of his affection in this non-optional statement that Cloud makes in Cosmo Canyon when they are sitting around the campfire:

Aerith "I'm...... alone..... I'm all alone now..."
Cloud "But I'm..... we're here for you, right?" ~FFVII script, Disk One

Cloud says that he's there for Aerith, but changes it to "we" due to his lack of self-confidence. Despite that, he starts the sentence with "I'm", which would indicate that he truly feels that *he* is there for her.

Aerith had just expressed that she was alone. Cloud reassures her she isn't. He starts with himself, and goes for inclusiveness.
I see comraderie easily. The romance angle is a major stretch.

Further evidence can be found in the game when Cait Sith makes his first prediction for Cloud when they meet in the Gold Saucer:

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
You're using Cait Sith as evidence. The guy the creators themselves call shit at telling fortunes.
Oh, and that's his THIRD fortune. The first two were even worse.

The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."

As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 120

The accuracy of Cait Sith's predictions can't be argued here, since SE specifies what his prediction means - that Cloud "will lose something dear" *can* mean that Cloud loses something dear when Aerith is killed in the Forgotten City.

It CAN. Note the word CAN there. That means 'is possible', not 'definitely does.' It CAN ALSO be hinting at CLOUD'S LOSING HIS MIND or it can be a MEANINGLESS excuse to join the party.
The accuracy can INDEED be argued here, because IT can predict multiple things. It's a vague, infalsifiable bit of NONSENSE he might have just made up to get on the team.

The FFVII UO goes on to say that Cait Sith's prediction in the Temple of Ancients refers to Cloud and Aerith's wedding:

The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.

The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.

Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 151

A prediction which predicts a wedding that does not happen is NOT A FULFILLED PREDICTION. This is exactly the same line of illogic as arguing that failed prophecy is evidence of the prophecy's accuracy.

Once again, the accuracy of Cait Sith's prediction can't be argued here, since SE is telling us what Cait Sith's prediction means.

No... SE is telling us what Cait Sith's prediction... PREDICTS. It says nothing about it being accurate. And there's QUITE a lot of instances where his accuracy is more than just doubted, but slammed outright.

SE also tells us that Cait Sith is talking about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility. The FFVII UO says that Cait Sith's prediction is about Cloud and Aerith's wedding, which would definitely imply that they are in love with one another. Why would they get married if they weren't in love? Why would SE even suggest that Cloud and Aerith will get married if there is no romantic relationship between them?

TO MAKE YOU FEEL BAD.
I'm not even being facetious here.
Cait Sith 1, the prediction, ALL of this shit is the big 'Hey, look over here' red herring that gets you softened up and ready to be SLAMMED IN THE FACE by the left hook of killing Aerith off.
FF7 does this. Several times. In fact, the entire game is based around misleading you and then revealing the deception. 'Ex-SOLDIER' Cloud being the first and most blatant example.

Also notice that the FFVII UO goes on to say that this "will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward" and that it "now becomes more painful" when Aerith is lost. The only way these predictions would be sad or painful is for those predictions to be true.

If the predictions were true.
They would come to pass.
They are SAD because they are highly optimistic predictions that immediately precede Aerith's brutal murder at the hands of the villian. Knowing she dies makes any happy prediction, true or false, bitterly ironic and sad in reflection. No 'truth' required. And there isn't any.

In the same passage, the FFVII UO says "if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps" suggests that there may be hope for Cloud and Aerith's love despite her death. This is very similar to the commercial saying that FFVII is a story about a love that could never be. There may indeed be hope for their love if Aerith's spirit continues to be with Cloud, like we see in AC/ACC. More will be discussed about that later.

You take the words 'future' and 'hope' and conclude not that Cait Sith is hoping, or predicting hope for humanity, or anything remotely related to the story of FF7, but that he's predicting Ghost loving in a movie made nearly a full decade later.

More evidence for the Clerith perspective from Dismantled:

1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.

Default does not mean canon. Playing the game abnormally is the only way to get the canon 'good' ending in 10-2.

2. In the gondola, the line “I’m searching for you” has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

I do desperately hope and sacrifice people with the inssmouth look to dagon you aren't rerefencing the old 'this mean sex' thing with the '(you understand, right?)' bui here.
Like with 'I want to meet the real you' the deep meaning is obvious. Cloud's actual self. She searching for and wants to meet the real Cloud.

In addition to that, the 20th Anniversary Ultimania says that Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud during the Clerith date scene:

During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud.~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania

If Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud in the gondola, then she expresses her love for him. (Passages from FFVII Dismantled and the FFVII Ultimania Omega which confirm that Aerith loves Cloud are quoted above.)

No one denies she voiced her feelings. Telling us shit about AERITH is meaningless. Tell us about CLOUD.

Although neither source says that Cloud voices his feelings for Aerith during the Date scene, the fireworks after Aerith says that she wants to meet Cloud sure suggest that they kiss.

...
...
...
And now we've gone directly into the realm of making shit up for fun and profit. What in the name of a tap dancing monkey about fireworks 'sure suggests they kiss?'
We've also gone into the realm of special pleading and double standards, unless you think he kissed on Tifa's date, Barret's date, and Yuffie's dates as well.

Furthermore, Cloud's love for Aerith is confirmed on this page in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania:

For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.~page 394, 20th Anniversary Ultimania
Scan: http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Al...tweenHeroes.jpg

Notice that the page says that the "love of the protagonists develop", which means that the love is reciprocal between the hero and heroine in the pictures shown on that page.

This page shows pictures of both the Cloud/Aerith date scene and the Highwind scene with Cloud/Tifa, so FFVII is the only Final Fantasy game with two pictures. FFVII is also the only game where it's specified in this book that both the Clerith date scene and the HW scene are optional.

Again with those oh OH OH so telling slips.
You also put your conclusion about 'THEY'RE OPTIONAL' first. Why is that?

All pictures shown on that page are of a mutual love between protagonists in different Final Fantasies, so it is confirmed on this page that a mutual love can exist between Cloud and Aerith, although it is under player control. There is no reason for all pictures on the page to show a mutual love except for the Cloud and Aerith picture. Therefore, this page confirms that a mutual love can exist between Cloud and Aerith, although it is optional to the player.

Interesting note, you repeated yourself here. And ignored the text.

]The same is shown for Cloud and Tifa. Once again, it is specified in this same book that the scenes shown for both Cloud and Aerith and for Cloud and Tifa are optional scenes and under player control.

And it also 'specifies' in the same book that events like Shadow living or dying are optional and under player control, but we know how these ended.
We know the Highwind scene ends in Cloud and Tifa confirming mutual feelings for each other. That's more than just specified for us, it's HAMMERED into us.

Some Clerith people see this as indication that who Cloud loves is up to interpretation in the game and that it is dependent on choices made by the player. However, other Clerith people see the love between Cloud and Aerith as being non-optional. They say this because regardless of the choices made during the game, several things are non-optional:

a.) It is non-optional for Cloud to say at the end of the game that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Clerith people believe that Cloud says this because he loves Aerith and wants to be with her again.

sentence 2 is a statement about what some people believe. No evidence in favor of this is provided.
It's also probably not the case, given he was telling Tifa about the thing, and then he tells Tifa about starting a new life with her a few hours later and completely ignores 'going to meet' Aerith in any way, shape, or form.

b.) The CloudxAerith date is the default date, as stated in FFVII Dismantled:

Default and not-optional are not the same thing.
In fact, 'default' implies THERE ARE OPTIONS.

1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line “I’m searching for you” has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189
c.) It is non-optional for Cloud to accept the date as payment for being Aerith's bodyguard.
d.) It is non-optional for Cloud to declare that he's Aerith's bodyguard in front of Tifa.
e.) It is non-optional for Cloud to show a great deal of caring for Aerith during the game.

It is non optional for Cloud to open his heart to Tifa and Tifa alone.
It is non optional for Cloud to start his life over with Tifa by his side in a different way than before.
It is non optional for Cloud and Tifa to start a family together.
Also, c is technically untrue. He neither accepts nor denies it.

The player cannot change these things no matter how much the player tries to make Cloud be mean to Aerith.

No, but you can call her the Slum Drunk.

While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection, there is no place in the game where Cloud can reject Aerith's affection.

BUH-WHU? Are these the dreaded ellipses of rejection rearing their ugly head again? Where in the name of Nancy does Cloud 'Blatantly Reject Tifa' during the Low Highwind scene? Please, BE SPECIFIC. Quote and Highlight. This oughta be good.

Therefore, while it is optional for Cloud to love Tifa, it is non-optional for Cloud to love Aerith. Even if he optionally falls in love with Tifa, too, he will continue to love Aerith.

Okay, this argument boils down to 'you don't get the option to reject Aerith, so you love her.'

This is so far from an actual argument that there's nothing to say to it except that it's not even wrong. Being wrong implies a closeness to something resembling correct, but this is so far removed from that that it defies classification. Your argument is that 'X character loves Y character, and EVEN THOUGH HE'S UNAWARE OF X'S FEELINGS, he does not reject her, THEREFOR HE LOVES HER.

You know what, think I'm insulting you if you want, but that argument is just fucking crazy. It follows no external nor internal logic, invents things whole cloth (The 'rejection' of Tifa under the highwind) and it both ignores evidence and blatantly rejects the idea of logical parsimony.

In addition to the scenes mentioned above, there are other non-optional scenes where we see Cloud's affection for Aerith in both Disks One and Two. In Disk One, during Aerith's death scene:

Cloud "Aerith is gone."
Cloud "Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry... or get angry..."
(Cloud holds her body close to his own and bows his head close to hers.)
(Cloud's shoulders start heaving as though he is crying.)
Cloud "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?"
(He gently rests her on the floor.)
Cloud "What about my pain?"
(He trembles.)
Cloud "My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!"

In the first place, Cloud shoulders start heaving as though he is crying. This indicates that Cloud is in a great deal of pain and grief over her death. His extreme pain shows that he cares for Aerith very deeply.

Dude's friend died in front of his fucking eyes. He's gonna grieve. Y'know. LIKE HE DID WITH ZACK. Incidentally, that is an editorialization into the scene by a fan transcriber. Not an actual scene direction.

In the second place, Cloud says, "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?". It's only logical that Cloud is talking about he and Aerith when he says "us" and asks what "we" are supposed to do.

What about us the living? What are we supposed to do?
I have just blown a hole in your argument. Cloud can be referring to the living people present as a whole.

That would mean that Cloud is talking about he and Aerith as a couple, and also that he is wondering what will happen to their relationship. This is reinforced by the following passage from FFVII Dismantled:

Cloud: "Aerith is dead. Right in front of my eyes... I couldn't stop Sephiroth. She was in my reach, and all I could do is stand there and watch as his sword ran through Aerith. All the time Aerith used to smile, like a flower. But, Aerith won't smile anyway. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again. What did she do? Why did Aerith have to be killed? What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's like endlessly boiling and burning up my body. Yet at the same time, I was afraid. Like a chill coming from the core of my body. When I found Aerith there, offering up some prayer, what did I try to do? If my friends hadn't stopped me at that moment, I would have struck my sword down on Aerith. It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia---Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---" ~Cloud's monologue, Death scene, FFVII Dismantled

The line where Cloud says, "Tell me, Aerith ----" would indicate that he is talking directly to Aerith during the death scene. If Cloud is talking directly to Aerith, then he is referring to them as a couple and asking about what's going to happen to their relationship now that she's dead.

That doesn't follow in the slightest. That line indicates nothing about who Cloud is talking to in the death scene. You are very very bad at exegesis. It INDICATES that Cloud is asking Aerith, who gave an indication that she knew something of who he was, to give him some assurance that he is who he thinks he is and not a puppet. Like he also seeks assurance from Tifa, whose opinion matters the most.

It would NOT be logical for Cloud's words to be asking what Avalanche is supposed to do without Aerith. At that point in the story, they haven't even learned about Holy, so there's no reason for Avalanche to think that they can't save the Planet without Aerith.

Yes, there's no reason to ask what people are supposed to do now that their very dear friend has now just been killed in front of their eyes. It MUST require that you either be in love with them or were hoping they could save the world for you. No middle ground.

Another non-optional scene where we see a special bond between Cloud and Aerith is when he senses her presence in the Forgotten City before she dies:

-IMG SNIP-

-QUOTE MINE SNIP-

In this passage, Cloud senses Aerith's presence even though he cannot see her. None of the other members of Avalanche sense her presence. Also, Cloud says, "I feel it in my soul". The suggestion that Cloud feels Aerith's presence in his soul implies that the two of them are soul mates.

Yes, Cloud says that Sephiroth is there, too. However, it could easily be that Aerith is the one who lets Cloud know that Sephiroth is there. After all, Cloud learned that Sephiroth was chasing Aerith in the dream that Aerith sent him while she was in the Sleeping Forest:

You're REALLY twisting the text here. He feels BOTH there. So they're both soulmates. Or alternately, he can feel the both of them before of his connection with Sephiroth.

-Snip-

(Reaching the intersection near the entrance of the Forgotten City, Cloud looks to the north.)
Cloud "Aerith's voice...... Coming from there?"
(He rushes north. Passing through a tunnel, he reaches a secluded, calm, mirrorlike pool. Sunlight shines from above, though it is still midnight. He continues. He enters a small, spiral-shaped building. Taking a long, glass stairway there, he reaches a huge, elegant, crystalline city, suspended in space. Continuing on, he finds a small shrine. Aerith is kneeling inside it.)
Cloud "Aerith?"

In this passage, Cloud once again senses Aerith's presence and hears her voice from a great distance. Cloud says he can hear her voice when he's near the entrance to the Forgotten City, but Aerith is in an underground temple located within a forest. The other members of Avalanche cannot hear her, so once again it is implied that there is a special bond between Cloud and Aerith.[/quote]

Or Cloud and Sephiroth, who was already present. Incidentally, you're making up whether or not the other members can hear her. There's nothing said on the subject. Cloud actually could be hearing her voice echoing from the shell.

Do Cloud's feelings for Aerith

Which we have yet to actually establish, but nevermind that, there's a conclusion we're rushing towards.

continue in Disk Two? There are several pieces of evidence which imply that he does. For one thing, there are a number of official quotes which indicate that Cloud is still missing Aerith at the time Advent Children/Complete starts. (See those quotes below in the section on AC/C.) If Cloud is still missing Aerith at the time Advent Children/Complete starts, then he still misses her during Disk Two of FFVII. A passage in FFVII Dismantled also reinforces that idea:

(Tifa's pov) In Gast's home, Tifa said Cloud was even more reticent after Aerith's death. She failed finding suitable words to console him, cuz "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." She kept saying that she'd never forgive Hojo. ~Tifa's monologue in Icicle Village, FFVII Dismantled

Notice that the passage starts with Tifa's talking about *consoling* Cloud after Aerith's death. That means that he is grieving over the loss of Aerith, and that her death is still a source of pain for him. Tifa says that Cloud lost Aerith, which means that it is a very personal loss for Cloud. It also reminds us of Cait Sith's prediction in the Gold Saucer that Cloud "will lose something dear".

No. It means she can't console him because what's ailing him isn't just the loss of Aerith, but also his loss of his sense of self. Which is ALSO something that could have been what Cait was predicting.

Immediately after Tifa talks about consoling Cloud, she says "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of himself also seemed lost". Therefore, in that context, the passage seems to mean that a piece of Cloud seems lost because he has lost Aerith. Once again, this would imply that Cloud is and was in love with Aerith.

No. The causation is not implied. Cloud has lost a piece of himself in addition to everyone's loss of Aerith. Cloud has lost his sense of self- Cloud's identity is cracking.

Also note that this passage comes up in Icicle village on Disk Two, which confirms that Cloud is still thinking of Aerith at that time. Other dialogue from Disk Two in the game suggests that Cloud continues to think of Aerith:

Oh shit, HOURS AFTER AERITH DIED, people are still thinking of her death, IT MUST BE LOVE!
Seriously, You're trying to tell us that not getting over your friends murder in hours after you nearly KILLED HER YOURSELF can only be the result of love.

(Cloud looks down)
Cloud "I remember Aerith a lot."
Cloud "No... not that. You haven't remembered. You haven't forgotten."
Cloud "That's not it... How would you say it..."
Cloud "Aerith was right there all along. Right by our side."
Cloud "She was so close, we couldn't see her."
Cloud "What Aerith did... The words she left behind..." ~In Cosmo Canyon, Disk Two, FFVII

Cloud "Aerith has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future..."
Cloud "I'm sorry... Aerith. I should have figured this out sooner."
Cloud "...You left us without saying a word... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think..."
Cloud "That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aerith... I understand now."
Cloud "Aerith... I'll do the rest."
Cloud "Thank you... Aerith." ~the Forgotten City, Disk Two, FFVII

Both passages indicate that Cloud is still thinking of Aerith during Disk Two. The second passage in the Forgotten City also indicates that Cloud considers it his personal mission to carry out Aerith's last wish when he says, "Aerith... I'll do the rest.

Yes. Because it's not even been half a month since she died. He feels responsible for her death. He has to make it up to her. Where's the fucking romance?

We see other indications that Cloud continues to think of Aerith during Disk Two, such as this dialogue on the Highwind:

Cloud "I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have." ~on board the Highwind, Disk Two, FFVII

Although it's never specified what Cloud's "personal memory" is, it can easily be interpreted that Cloud's memory is Aerith. After all, he just got through saying that he's fighting to save the Planet, and that's what Aerith tried to do. Cloud promised in the Forgotten City to do the rest for her. So Aerith could easily be that personal memory.

"BUT" besides that.
Meaning 'Apart from fighting to save the planet, I have other reasons'
In the narrative, TIFA is associated with Cloud's memories a lot more solidly than Aerith is. Tifa is the focus of 'sealed up secret memories that no one can know.'

Another passage soon after that indicates the same thing:

(Aerith's Theme begins to play in the background.)
Red XIII "......Although she's not here, she left us a window of opportunity..."
(He looks at Cid. Cid turns to Cloud and nods.)
Cid "We can't let it go like this."
(Cloud turns away and stares out the window.)
Cloud "......Aerith."
"She was smiling to the end."
"We have to do something, or that smile will just freeze like that."
(He turns to the others. He nods.)
Cloud "Let's all go together."
"Memories of Aerith......"
"Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck......"
"We've got to let go of Aerith's memory." ~on board the Highwind, Disk Two, FFVII

The phrase, "We've got to let go of Aerith's memory" has been shown in translation to mean that they have to *free* Aerith's memory because Sephiroth has blocked her. In conjunction with the earlier phrase, it's easy to see how Aerith could indeed be the "personal memory" that Cloud referred to.

No. It really isn't. Because Aerith's memory/ spirit/ power isn't a personal memory. It's a thing external to him which they must go and give assistance to.

Clerith people consider the hand reach scene at the end of the game to be the most romantic scene in the game, and to clearly show the love Cloud has for Aerith. After all, SE has used a hand reach scene for other couples in their games, such as Kairi/Sora in KH1:

-IMAGE SNIP-

Note that Sora looks very similar to Cloud reaching out for Aerith at the end of FFVII. Then, SE shows another hand reach scene between Kairi/Sora in KH2, similar to how SE reenacted the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith in AC/C:

Sora Riku Hand Reach.
The hand in the light resolving itself into Tifa's hand.
The fact that everyone else in AVALANCHE also got a hand reach with Cloud.
Your argument is invalid.

-IMAGE SNIP-

There is also a hand reach scene shown between Snow and Serah in FFXIII:

-IMG SNIP-

He's trying to catch her as she falls out of a helicopter. That's not a romantic hand reach eve though those two are in a romance. That's not being a douche.

Since hand reach scenes have been used by SE to show a romantic connection in other games, then the hand reach scene in FFVII could easily mean the same thing.

So, Cloud and ALL of Avalanche.

Do Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in Advent Children/Complete?

We're going to assume they exist and justify this first.

A number of official quotes reinforce that idea:

I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview, Dengeki Playstation

GUILT. He's referring to the GUILT.

A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~Aerith's profile, DoC game manual

The phrase "engraved in one's heart" is often used in literature to mean that someone is in love with another.[/quote]

Please support this assertion with some evidence because I am calling SHENANNIGANS.
In the Japanese, it means 'remembers.' Please, do provide citations in favor of your argument. Actual usage in books, please.

The following quote from Tifa's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania also shows that Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in AC/ACC:

A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she [Tifa] feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.~Tifa's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 42-47

You are quote mining.
And you WONDER why we call you disingenous. You ignored nearly an ENTIRE PARAGRAPH. Immediately following YOUR quote, we find that the REASON those feelings continue-
This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

The reason the feelings are complicated two years later is BECAUSE AERITH CAUSES CLOUD TO HATE HIMSELF.

]This passage basically says that Tifa is jealous of the special bond between Cloud and Aerith, and that Tifa's jealousy continues in AC/ACC. Tifa's jealousy wouldn't continue unless she realized that Cloud's feelings for Aerith had continued. Note that Aerith is specifically called a "love rival". This clearly indicates that Tifa recognizes that Cloud has feelings for Aerith.

You LIE, as I have just shown above. The complex feelings are for entirely different reasons in the two time periods.

Nomura also said that Aerith is in Cloud's heart in this interview:

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

That interview was published at AdventChildren.net, which no longer exists. However, a screenshot of that page can be found here:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/ACNet.gif

Hi. This is me demolishing your argument.
Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet.- Aerith's U10 profile.
That was me demolishing your argument by showing that Aerith lives on in the hearts of all her friends.

As mentioned earlier, the only male/female figurine made for Advent Children was the one of Cloud standing in Aerith's Church:
http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay3.jpg

I see no female in this picture. Unless you mean Cloud, in which there's no male. So even accepting your logic arguendo, you STILL need to twist the evidence further to make this Clerith.

]This is significant because SE only makes male/female figurines and statues of romantic pairings. Although the figure of Aerith isn't actually there, she is obviously represented by the light streaming down on Cloud, the flowers at his feet, and the floorboards of her Church.

She's not in the figure. It is not a 'male/female figurine.' And this is if your premise is remotely true.

In addition to this, the FFVII International Game Disks as developed for Advent Pieces Limited feature pictures of Cloud, Aerith, and Sephiroth on Disks 1, 2, and 3 as shown in the picture to the left below. The other members of Avalanche, including Tifa, are shown on Disk 4, which is shown in the picture to the right below:

-IMG SNIP-

It's pretty obvious that SE is showing the main hero and heroine of the game and movie along with the antagonist on Disks 1, 2, and 3. If Tifa were considered the main heroine and love interest, it's only logical that she would be pictured on the three main disks rather than Aerith. Instead, Tifa is pictured on Disk 4 along with the other members of Avalanche.

Again with the disk labels. You have the hero, the villian, and the Deus ex Machina.

Also, from the Distance interview on the Advent Children DVD:

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

If Aerith lives on inside of Cloud, then she is always with him. This could indeed be possible, since Cloud was saturated with Mako (Lifestream) by Hojo. Since Aerith's spirit and consciousness now exist in the Lifestream, I would think that there's enough Lifestream in Cloud for Aerith's spirit to actually exist there.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
First, as above, Aerith lives on in the hearts of all her friends.
Second, Cloud can see Zack too. Zack would also live on inside Cloud by applying this logic.
Third, This is not a statement applying in the specific, it is an example explaining the general.
Fourth, Aerith and Zack return to the lifestream of the planet itself at the end of AC/C. This is where the two of them belong.

In the Reunion Files, Aerith's voice actor also suggested that Aerith's presence is always with Cloud:

She's [Aerith's] presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film. ~Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's voice actor), pg. 58, Reunion Files

Not seeing an always. Seeing a 'still,' but no always.

Aerith's presence always being with Cloud is also inferred by a scene in Calling, the final FMV of Advent Children:

Watching over. Not with.

-IMGSNIP-

As you can see, Aerith's image is superimposed over Cloud's image, which would suggest that she is always with him. (Please note that when Aerith first appears in this brief scene, she is directly superimposed over Cloud, which isn't shown in the screenshot.)

Oh dear monkies you're trying to use an artifact of a scene transition as evidence.

Nomura said that the song Calling, which plays during the video, was supposed to demonstrate the message of Advent Children. It was especially picked by him to portray Cloud's feelings:

"In the scene where it plays I'm trying to portray the message of the film and Cloud's feelings through silence and the song. I think people will feel the persuasive power of the song when they view the scene." ~Tetsuya Nomura, reported at 1up.com: Advent Children: Title Song Picked

Nowhere during the Calling video do we see anything of Tifa. The whole focus of the video is on Aerith and Cloud.

Saying the focus of AC's Second credits is 'Aerith' is stretching shit considerably.
By the by, the message of calling is 'keep up the fight.'

It is also notable that Cloud is shown during both Safe and Sound, the final FMV of Advent Children Complete, as well as during Calling, the final FMV of Advent Children, as riding through flower fields rather than returning to the Seventh Heaven. Nomura directly related the flower fields to Aerith when he said this in the Reunion Files:

Cloud is driving ACROSS THE COUNTRYSIDE. He is driving TOWARDS HOME as he finishes up his deliveries He's working. That you continue to claim he rides through flower fields and not towards home is so mind boggling obdurate I can only assume it is willfull.

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

Therefore, Cloud is shown surrounded by flowers that symbolize Aerith in both of the final FMV's instead of returning to the Seventh Heaven.

He's shown driving home TO 7th heaven. Again, that you can't complete this logical step is really quite boggling. Yes, there are flowers on the side of the road. Aerith's watching over him. Shock of shocks, that's her role in the afterlife- to watch over the world.

The final scene of Advent Children Complete is also a picture of the interior of Aerith's church. That's interesting since it has been confirmed that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's church:

With ZACK'S glorious phallic symbol inside it.

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, AC Playback. (revised edition)

The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church, so her church is Cloud's Promised Land. Therefore, the ending scene of ACC is showing Cloud's Promised Land, a place that he clearly associates with Aerith.

A place that he clearly shoves Zack's phallic sword in.
A place that is his promised land more likely because of the fact that he is now happy, and surrounded by his family who make him happy, rather than having anything to do with Aerith.
The church was not Cloud's promised land before this scene. Aerith was associated with and even present here beforehand. The thing that has changed is that Cloud no longer forces himself to be alone because his guilt is gone.
And your bolding ignores the very important fact that BECAUSE Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness, Zack and Aerith leave to return to the 'current of life flowing around the planet where they belong'
In other words, NOT INSIDE CLOUD.

This is significant because at the end of FFVII, Cloud said this after the hand reach scene:

An answer from the Planet...
the Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there. ~FFVII, Disk Two

If Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land and Cloud said that he could meet her there, then we can conclude that Cloud found Aerith's spirit in the Church and that she is now part of his life once again. The paragraph about Cloud's Promised Land also says this:

No. Because that does not logically follow in the slightest because Zack and Aerith are not related to his happiness and are specifically noted as leaving to return to where they belong.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

The passage says that Cloud *no longer* has to suffer in loneliness now that he has found Aerith again. This clearly insinuates that Cloud was actually feeling lonely during the two years after FFVII, but that he no longer feels lonely after finding Aerith again.

You're ignoring that Cloud felt lonely and guilty because he was happy, AND that the REST of the quote"
Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet" I say this in ALLCAPS for emphasis.
SHE LEAVES NOW THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO SUFFER IN LONELINESS. You're reading HALF of a sentence to try and conclude its meaning. DON'T DO THAT.

That is reinforced by Tifa's monolgue in Dismantled early in Disk Two when she says this:

(Tifa's pov) In Gast's home, Tifa said Cloud was even more reticent after Aerith's death. She failed finding suitable words to console him, cuz "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." She kept saying that she'd never forgive Hojo. ~Tifa's monologue in Icicle Village, FFVII Dismantled

If Cloud found Aerith in the Promised Land during Advent Children, then he found the part of himself that had been missing for the last two years.

And if Wishes were fishes, The hobo army strikes tomorrow!
As mentioned, you're conflating two distinct ideas as one here. Cloud losing Aerith, a dear friend, and Cloud losing a piece of himself- his deepening identity issues.

He has been reunited with Aerith, his true love.

And then she leaves. For the lifestream. Where she belongs. With another man.
Dunno bout you, but that's mixed signals.

You started with commercials. Continued with Merchandise. Gave us a lot of Coulds which morphed into 'IS', you quote mined citations, ignored others, you even read only the first half a sentence to try and derive its meaning. You offered the argument that never rejecting someone means you love them.
Seriously?

SERIOUSLY?
Your arguments rest upon premises you never support, some you never CAN support, you twist scenes out of all shape, jump to conclusions that would make Superman blush, and reject all parsimony when forming your conclusions.
This is not a good essay. It is not a good argument. It does not have a well defined structure or argument, apart from 'Cloud loves Aerith' but it cannot make up its mind where to focus. Your focus on the context seems to fixate only on what you want to focus on at the given moment, causing you to miss or ignore things should obviously indicate your argument at that point is unsound, or even contradicts your arguments elsewhere.

Maybe you should try focusing specifically on making that Case for Cloud and Aerith being in an actual romantic relationship of any sort BEFORE SHE DIED as strong as you can. Because you didn't. You largely assumed it based on 'could have's' and then moved on with the essay like you had.
Because what this essay is convincing me of is not that the positive case for C/A is solid, but that it's even weaker than suspected.

Teef- Dismantled is a sourcebook for FF7 released around the time of release. It's contents are being fairly overblown here, and other citations from it are being ignored.

An addendum:
I hereby grant all rights to anyone so wishing to quote this post in full so as to respond to repostings of Anastar's essay or arguments in the essay as they wish, as long as it is done with citation, and no change is made to the arguments themselves. Partial quoting is allowed, but changing the message is not.

I figure if arguments from your site get C/Ped, I might as well allow my response to be C/Ped in response.

Vendel · Sep 29, 2011

Suteki18 said:
Okay, since it has been 50 pages and I still don't have this clear, I'll just say what I think.

Time to pick this apart!

Suteki18 said:
Zack's stories probably included stories about Aerith, the same way he tells her about "the girl living with her mother in Midgar", so ZaCloud's reasons to be immediately attracted to Aerith could be Zack's doing.

Do we know that he was "immediately attracted" to Aerith? Just saying.

Suteki18 said:
I think the LTD is Square's (and Nomura's, because he's the biggest one ever) way to be a troll and make you think that Aerith and Cloud will end up together only to then pull the curtain and reveal that everything was a lie and Tifa was the girl, which then was repeated in Dissidia and KH, but since I'm just talking about the original game, I'll leave that out.

Square and later SE were not trolling the fanbase by making you think C/A were going to end up together. This always irks me that people just go on the assumption that everything was pointing to Aerith on the first disk. It wasn't.

If you want to describe what Square did on the first disk as "trolling" then you need to include more than Aerith. And more than just who Cloud might want to stick his dick in.

Suteki18 said:
The other attempt is the date (which is a bit hard to get, which would prove that she only takes the step if she is sure you are interested), where she tries to confess but is too shy and afraid of losing him as a friend.

Two things. One, the date is not hard to get. If you don't take Aerith with you when you go see Dyne then you really have to work not to get Tifa.

Secondly, why diminish Tifa's insecurities as just "not wanting to lose Cloud as a friend"? That may be a part of it. But her concern over his mental state is front and center in her mind throughout the first disk.

*As an aside I want to take a moment to point out that Aerith is very aggressive towards Cloud because he reminds her of her dead boyfriend. While Tifa is hesitant around Cloud for the same reason.

Filia Ul Copt said:
What even IS Dismantled and where can I read it? O_o; I mean I see the Clerith quotes in, but I have this odd suspicion that there are other parts in this book(?) that are being left out.

From what I understand it is a guidbook. But it also has a bunch of monologues in it. Written by Benny if I am not mistaken. And your suspicions about "cloti" material being left out by some people would be correct.

But like other prose written by Benny I just ignore it (along with SE).

But some of those quote once again just reinforce to me that Benny has a hard-on for Aerith.

Zee · Sep 29, 2011

the love of romeo and juliet

>love
>romeo and juliet

whoa now......

also i um

think cloud/aeris is canon because of reasons.

Ryushikaze · Sep 29, 2011

lemon grab said:
>love
>romeo and juliet

whoa now......

Nah. She cheated on him with another dude in another play. She totally double faked her own death.

also i um

think cloud/aeris is canon because of reasons.

Ball's in your court, then. Elucidate.

Celes Chere · Sep 29, 2011

So Dismantled.... isn't canon?
I can't find shit when I google it except for the translations that are done by CxA for only five pages? I want to read it all. D:

Ryushikaze · Sep 29, 2011

Filia Ul Copt said:
So Dismantled.... isn't canon?

It's probably best to consider it as 'secondary canon' at this point. Not entirely irrelevant, but overridden by newer sources where it has been, and even what hasn't needs to be analyzed in light of newer information.

Ryushikaze · Sep 29, 2011

Suteki18 said:
I treated Tifa as best as I could and I got Aerith instead the first time I played. Aerith's date is really easy to get, but for Tifa's you have to get negative points for Aerith on purpose. What I mean is that trying to make sense of the date points, to get Tifa you need to not show interest on Aerith. But as I said, trying to make sense out of the date system could be "reading too much into it", even if the points aren't as random as they seem most of the time.

Actually, you don't. If you get Tifa up as far as you can go at the start of the game, and then more or less alternate between being nice to each of them in turn, there's an even chance of getting one or the other. Even with the +10 Aerith can get from seeing Dyne die.
And that's without the 'Leave it to me' trick in ShinRa tower to REALLY max the value.

Yeah, I was refering to Tifa's quote during the date about being hard to be childhood friends, but I agree.

Hard to do [thing] when you are childhood friends, rather than being them, technically.

Dashell · Sep 30, 2011

2 things

1. "NO. FULL STOP. FULL REVERSE. We are not taking the HMS Leap of Logic out to sea today."

That right there, is the best thing anyone has ever said in any of these threads period. If I ever own a boat or even a little canoe, I am now inclined to name it "HMS Leap of Logic."

2. Anastar will not be returning to this thread but I was informed I could PM her my reply, and then post what her reply is here.

EDIT
okay I know it's late and no one will read this, but I might have misunderstood her. I think she might want me to send your guys' responses to her too... I think she's just having trouble reading the thread since it's so big but... I'm not sure. I'll find that out first.

OneWingedDemon · Sep 30, 2011

Anastar will not be returning to this thread but I was informed I could PM her my reply, and then post what her reply is here.

color me surprised :awesome:

Ryushikaze · Sep 30, 2011

I wish I could say this lack of werewithal was surprising, but it is not.

As I doubt Anastar will admit defeat here, citing that we were rude or other excuses which do not invalidate a lick of our arguments, I shall take as victory the knowledge that when the heat was all about, Anastar definitely gave out.

The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

SMILE!

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

undercover Clerith evangelist

[no fucks given]

Banned

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)

SMILE!

SMILE!

Do you enjoy your life?

SMILE!

Banned

Banned

SMILE!

Banned

Banned

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

Banned

wangxian married

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

Banned

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

SMILE!

NOT AMUSED

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE