I'll ask my brother to play it for the while. He's a Clerith, so if the game shows Cloti, he'd definitely let me know.
FHS said:
I'll wait until you can catch up on reading before debating some more. ^^ It can be daunting having so much to answer at once, so thanks for taking it all in stride.
How is it "always" if there's no such statement on the "For the One I Love" page, the "Impressive Scenes" page from the U20 Scenario's story summary, the Memorial Album script, nor in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania's story summary?
"Always" has a particular meaning, and that there's not it.
Lady Lifestream said:
Claim: The High Affection Scene is one of the four most-important scenes in the game.
So, wait. I'd like to get that in the right way.
You are saying that the High Affection scene is more important than the ending because one single page says so. However, this page didn't even include Aerith's death, a very important scene that strongly affects the storyline. So this page lacks her death, a thing that questions the rightfulness of this page.
Um, what? Aerith's death scene is right above the high affection Highwind scene there. They're on the same page together.
Where are you getting your information?
LadyLifestream said:
Second, 'Dismantled' was questioned to be un-canon just because it was too old. However, other installments of FFVII were also questioned by fans to be un-canon because they contradict the storyline.
Then why wasn't this page questioned if it lacks certain important scenes?
Any questions of the stories in the Kaitai Shinsho's canonicity aside (I don't really have much opposition to whether they're canon or not; SE has never seemed to acknowledge them since their publication, though, which does raise doubts), the U20 Scenario would not be held in doubt given that it's the most recent word on whatever matters it addresses.
Lady Lifestream said:
Claim: There are no feelings seen to be shared in the Low Version.
There are also no feelings necessarily seen to be shared in the High Version.
Because they were expressed without words, and Square wasn't about to visually depict how they were shared. Hell, even now I doubt they'd elect to go that route.
At any rate, we see Cloud and Tifa begin talking about the feelings, we see Cloud have trouble saying how he feels, and we see Tifa make a suggestion that they express those feelings another way.
Lady Lifestream said:
SE says that feelings are shared and that these feelings are of mutual romance in the High Version. Why saying that these feelings are only of love in the High Version if they only shared feelings in the High Version? This doesn't make sense.
Same question for you I gave Anastar (and still haven't gotten a response to): what mutual feelings do you see Cloud and Tifa share in the text of the low affection version?
Lady Lifestream said:
Claim: There is no quote saying anything about Cloud and Aerith being involved romantically.
True. The only mention of something "romantic" would be the date scene that was listed on the Love-Page, making the Aerith date romantic.
Are you forgetting that the text under that screenshot doesn't favor any particular date as happening, and even says who goes on the date with Cloud changes based on his prior actions? And the quote in Cloud's own 10th AU profile that shows a screenshot from the date scene (Tifa's date, ironically enough) along with a caption that both women had feelings for Cloud, yet he was unaware of them at that time?
Lady Lifestream said:
Claim: Cloud cannot love Aerith since he didn't know her enough.
Supported by what? So there are Squall and Rinoa travelling a few weeks with each other, and they can't fall in love with each other?
We actually agree with each other on this. The span-of-time argument has never really held water with me.
Lady Lifestream said:
I would also like to ask one question.
Tifa asks Cloud in the High Version if he thinks the stars can hear how hard they fight for them. Ähm, however, they did never fight for the stars. They fought for the planet. I've heard that 'hoshi' can equally mean 'planet/earth' and 'star', so maybe this is a translation error?
The sentence would make far more sense if it would say 'planet' rather than 'stars'.
"Do you think the planet can hear us? Do you think he knows how hard we're fighting for him?"
Tifa says "hoshi tachi" (星たち), so, yeah, she is actually referring to the stars. "Tachi" denotes a plurality, as in "watashi tachi" (私たち) within the same line ("watashi" means "I," so a plurality of it means "we").
You know, I watched ACC last night and thought about it from the standpoint of never having played the game, and I can honestly see where some things/scenes could be viewed in a romantic light, but knowing the overall context helps a lot. Clerith is a really sweet pairing, it's just not supported in the overall compilation and I think that's where a lot of the arguments stem from. If you take only certain pieces and segregate them, then yeah, you could skew things (like Yuffie and Cloud's kiss) but the overall story and plot don't support 'all' pairings. There is a distinct, logical conclusion.
That's awfully nice of you.
And I am in a debate forum. So, answering to many is already part of it.
I got used to it as well.
Yeah, but it can be walls of text and feel like being attacked, so if it gets too much, please don't hesitate to mention it. None of us will think badly of it.
How did he communicate with her?
From what we know he didn't spend time/talk with Aerith until AC/C. After the OG he started to live with Tifa (and Barret for a short period.)
Cloud moved in to Aerith's church not long before the movie starts. And he went there to die.
I've already given you some before. If I give you more, you'd only react the same to it. Anastar's post of her essay is evidence enough. I can't say anything else to add on it.
Cloud: But, Tifa......
But you said, 'Long time no see, Cloud' right?
Those words will always support me.
I am the one you grew up with. I'm Cloud of Nibelheim.
No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth.
That's why you shouldn't be so scared.
No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts...
Cloud: "Hey Tifa...... I...... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk with you about. But now when we are together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say... I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh..."
Tifa: "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."
“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again. “Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.
When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”
“It’s… Just the way I am.”
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.
First, Aerith's comrades were mentioned, as in general, to carry their own feelings and *loves* for her. Then it goes to pick out Cloud, and say that he has his own undying feelings for Aerith.
He decided to start a new life with Tifa, and that everything would be okay this time because he have her in a different way than before. When is he focused on Aerith?
Case of Tifa is evidence enough.
So when two people spend short time together, they can't possibly fall in love at that time?
Like LL said. Squall and Rinoa.
They NEVER showed their LOVE for each other. They had potential to become something more than friends, but never got the chance.
Aerith could communicate with Cloud in a different way than Tifa could. (Aerith also flirted with him, and talked about their planned date.) That's why she got jealous. You said so yourself.
Both of them? I thought it was only Tifa.
Tifa had something to be embarrassed about with the low affection version.
Are you serious? So she got rejected? And still there they are, sleeping close to each other, and are happy the next morning. Then they decided to start a life together, run a business and raise children. Yeah, it all makes sense.
And then we have plenty of quotes that tells us that Cloud and Tifa shared their mutual feelings with each other.
squall was sort of a complete butthole to rinoa past the first disc. he was pretty busy being like 'ugh i hate everyone i wish they'd all go away ugh ugh' until... well until past when i stopped playing in the second disc around that prison junk
so even just by going with that junk, squall and rinoa have at least more than one disc of development and i would hopefully assume, more than just a couple of weeks unless the time shit in ff8 is even shittier than i had anticipated
and either way, i still have no idea how this points to cloud wanting to smoochyface at aerith's lifestreamy body and only her lifestreamy body, idg how he can only love one person i just
She never said this is why she believes they're canon. In fact she referenced a (apparently non existent) non-optional scene that somehow proved Shadow was alive. If Shadow dies, does he stay dead the whole game? Is he ever scene again? I've never played so I don't know.
After the meteor disaster, she's living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.
PC version. Trust me, your computer can run it. Or the PSN version on your PSP.
And no, the game doesn't contradict the truth, but the game can contain pathways other than the true version of events.
Uhm. Ok. I understand what you meant even with just the first paragraph.
I specifically wanted to include the second section to note that something which has no explicit further effect on anything can still be canonized.
Right. Should've worded that better. I really shouldn't debate when it's 1 am in the morning. LOL.
Is it really impossible to spend time with the dead, or get a visit? I didn't get that impression because of ACC.
But oh well, I'll get into reading the whole of CoLW this break anyway.
After the dead have moved to the lifestream, it is exceptionally rare. It is possible to communicate with remaining spirits, but these have refused to return to the lifestream in the first place. Also, COLW and COLB are very short. Reading them takes less time than reading a new post in this thread.
But why is the guilt so much for Cloud is Aerith wasn't that important to him?
I know that friends are important, but not as important as someone you love.
Zack is Cloud's friend, but Cloud can visit his grave just fine. With Aerith, no, he can't bring himself to go there without having his emotions stir.
Cloud's emotions are stirred at Zack's grave as well.
And no one is trying to say Aerith is not important to Cloud. Just that her importance does not involve romance. As for 'lovers are more important than friends', sometimes some friends have more affect on you than others. In Cloud's case, it is the circumstances of Aerith's demise which make her the symbol of his guilt, and why he hesitates to head to her gravesite, site of one of his biggest failings.
Ah. So events prior to the beginning of the game were shown in flashbacks/written in books... Did I get that part?
But it is kindness. It's commiseration. It's trying to help Tifa get over her fear.
2. Because that was mentioned in a thread that existed before. I wasn't going to use it in the LTD. I just commented that Barret's line wasn't included before since it didn't address the "Cloud acted mean towards Tifa at times" topic.
He could've stopped with "It's too late now", but he followed it up with "Why'd you come along anyway?"
And that is not a kind thing to say. Even if it is a question, the fact that Tifa shared her fear, Cloud reacted that way. It's like he's questioning Tifa's reason why she came along if she would just get scared. That's all.
I don't really know. It's not like how Aerith came to take Cloud's hand. If Aerith were talking to Kadaj and asking him to go with her back to the Lifestream already, I would think that she should at least be moving a bit. But the reflection in Kadaj's eyes don't. It stays exactly the same.
I do not recall getting the answer. Ah well. But not the OTWTAS novellas?
And that's why I say she's that powerful to be able to contact all those people at the same time. The phones go off nearly all at the same time. And it's still not comparable to her appearing to Cloud, right when he needed it.
I think you meant "there for them". "Their" is a possessive case.
Oh wait, I'm not saying that Aerith wasn't there for all of them. I was just saying that it was easier for them to know that Aerith was there because they were expecting her, or hoping for her to come. Aerith didn't need to make her presence known, they figured it out on their own.
I did indeed mean there. I thought I corrected this.
But she doesn't need to make her presence known because they can sense her presence and they can do this because she too lives on inside them. That's kind of my point.
My bad. And I know that Big Sis is the Japanese translation, but taking the English one, I took it to mean either: "Is it Aerith?" or "Is Aerith here?"
But why take the translation and NOT the original source to inform it? This seems silly.
Uhm. The "us" plural is in the Japanese version isn't it? I only have the English one. And, what do you think she did for Tifa? I had the impression that Tifa knew Aerith would be there for Cloud's battle.
Us. Her friends. The planet. Aerith showed up to help when she could.
And yes, the Japanese says 'You were always with us, weren't you?'
She didn't need to hide herself from people. She is already somewhere else, in the Lifestream. She can get out to talk to Cloud, and show herself to people, then return again. What's notable is that she can do it. That's all I'm saying.
But that doesn't mean she can keep doing it, just as Sephiroth doing the same doesn't mean HE can keep doing it or Zack can keep doing it as well.
And you are missing my point. My point is that if it takes effort to appear, only appearing to a small number of people is not impressive. It's like three way calling on a phone.
We've provided quotes about Aerith's impact on Cloud, defending how it could be taken as romantic, but you only relate it to guilt. Nothing's changed.
So it undercuts the idea that Aerith being able to appear 'makes up' for her death by having other people do it and specifically noting that Aerith leaves at the end and Cloud belongs with someone other than her.
You have not established the case for it. In principle, we must deny it.
Then you say that he can't have a relationship with her.
The first is easy to understand enough. But if you say he can't have a relationship with her, then you have to say that he does love her.
A 'no true scotsman' fallacy. The removal of an example from a group based on additional arbitrary criteria.
'No scotsman would put sugar in his tea'
'Sean MacAdams does'
'No, TRUE scotsman would put sugar in his tea'
I was going for the point that Barret didn't want Cloud to further give cold replies to Tifa.
How was that convo mushy?
But Tifa was about to speak. And Cloud had not given a cold reply.
And I never said the convo was mushy. I just implied Barret thought it was.
The thing is that for me, that's the only thing SE came up with. They wanted a film for FF7. For the story, they came up with those things. The rest just became fill-ins for it. But I do get your point.
What do you mean 'the rest just became fill ins for it?' DoC was being made at the same time as Advent Children was.
Yep. I was going to follow it up for whoever reacts to it.
I wasn't able to express myself clearly then here.
Aerith's purpose for appearing to Cloud is not just to ease his guilt. If it was, then she could have not help give Cloud a boost, but she did. It's like her purpose all in all was to help Cloud.
Er, yes. That's her purpose. To aid Cloud in a time of crisis.
Like you said, in CoLW, Aerith is willing, but unable. And it happens in those two years. She couldn't do it then, but she was able to do it in ACC.
FHS claims that it was explained in CoLW. But you said pages ago that changes can't happen in between CoLW and ACC which would enable Aerith to do so. Unless my memory has failed me.
So what's the deal? What enabled Aerith?
I said there's not significant time in which Aerith herself could have changed. There is, however, a difference of situation between the end of COLW/B and ACC, and that is the lifestream itself, with Sephiroth's dark lifestream and his mobilizing Shinentai. It has become agitated. On spira, a more chaotic, less organized lifestream enables the dead to do some extraordinary things. But Aerith was specifically fighting to counter this development.
It would help if you provide me with the Japanese phrase. I can't really understand it because I can't see it.
Apathetic means it lacks or has very little emotion.
Claim: LL should say what she personally thinks about the reason of Cloud's sorrow.
Okay, then first, before I say something, read carefully:
* This is my opinion and I wish for no insult or offense or someone saying "oh this is crap and bullshit and you are totally nuts for thinking this"
* This is my opinion and my own interpretation of the things that happened. I have no wish of claiming this is true or hinted.
* There shall be no debate if this is in context with your own view of FFVII.
What if it's in disagreement with the narrative of the game?
[I view Cloud's affection in FFVII as romantic. I think his actions towards her show that he has developed romantic affection towards her and that he cherishes her company in a romantic way. I think he feels sorrow because she isn't at his side anymore and that he could have protected her if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth. I believe that Cloud doesn't feel this sorrow in the end of AC anymore because he has seen Aerith again and knows that she is never really leaving him even if she is dead.
I also believe that he has shown a certain affection towards Tifa that can be viewed as romantic some times though it seems to be rather sparse. I believe he feels a strong platonic love towards her and that he maybe even feels a little romantic affection towards her.]
So. This is my honest opinion and I do not wish to be insulted because of this. I do not claim this to be canon or default or that it happened or something like that, this is my own interpretation of the game and is neither true nor false.
It's just a viewpoint without evidence to be proven or disproven.
Not on the page that says 'Romantic feelings are shared.' Yes, you can get one of two versions, but the FTOIL page doesn't give two shits.
Claim: The High Affection Scene is one of the four most-important scenes in the game.
So, wait. I'd like to get that in the right way.
You are saying that the High Affection scene is more important than the ending because one single page says so. However, this page didn't even include Aerith's death, a very important scene that strongly affects the storyline. So this page lacks her death, a thing that questions the rightfulness of this page.
Um, the hell page are you talking about? The 'Important Scenes' pages DO include Aerith's death. Hell, it's on the same page as the High Highwind scene.
Second, 'Dismantled' was questioned to be un-canon just because it was too old. However, other installments of FFVII were also questioned by fans to be un-canon because they contradict the storyline.
Then why wasn't this page questioned if it lacks certain important scenes?
Because A: It's not contradicting anything, just saying 'these are most important', and B: It does not lack those scenes you think it lacks.
Also, C: Dismantled isn't 'un-canon' it's just overridden by the newer sources where such things occur.
Claim: Celes wearing heavier armor as Locke is making her a physical fighter.
No. She remains an all-around fighter. The fact that she can learn magic without magicites does actually suggest using her for magic spells.
So, why in the name of seven fucks are you bringing two NPCs into the discussion, then?
And what of 10-2, when Yuna no longer has a naturally high magic growth and has switched to a physical job as her base? Does she stop being a romantic character?
Claim: It's irrelevant to be a mage to find love.
Indeed. However, there seems to be a pattern.
Only if you make the pattern as vague as humany possible AND give it special conditions AND ignore the exceptions AND ignore the examples where being a mage doesn't get you the guy.
Claim: LL has still to provide sources for two of her quotes.
About the first one (saying that there was a quote stating that Sephiroth and Aerith are the narrators of CoL): no, I think there was no quote saying that. Sadsadsad.
About the second one (a statement saying that Tifa just tries to act bright): I'm still searching, and I am darn sure this was true.
Keep looking. Consider you may have misremembered a different quote.
Claim: LLs debate about the mage thing is pointless.
True. I didn't intend to debate about it that hugely since I know:
* it's most likely untrue
* there is nothing proving it
* it's quite porous
Then why have you been continuing in engaging in it?
Claim: Cloud's secret tender with is to be with Tifa.
First, it was his with to be noticed by her. He had a crush as a child, but there was no mentioning of him "wanting to be with Tifa". He wanted to be noticed by the village and especially by her.
Actually, they do. Because he was holding them even during the lifestream sequence. Was holding, Past progressive. Means continues to the time of reference at the minimum.
Claim: There are no feelings seen to be shared in the Low Version.
There are also no feelings necessarily seen to be shared in the High Version.
SE says that feelings are shared and that these feelings are of mutual romance in the High Version.
What does not make sense is you not thinking that makes sense. IF cloud and Tifa only share feelings in the high version AND IF Cloud and Tifa share romantic feelings for each other THEN The feelings Cloud and Tifa share in the high version will be romantic.
HOWEVER, IF Cloud and Tifa can share feelings in both versions AND Cloud and Tifa share romantic feelings for each other THEN they will share these feelings in either version.
The FTOIL page DOES NOT SPECIFY A VERSION.
"They only share feelings in the High Version. (...) If the High Version ocurred, the feelings will be of mutual love."
So mutual feelings are shared in both versions. What feelings are shared is to be left unknown for the player's interpretation.
That does not follow. You've literally come to the opposite conclusion from your premise. Even without correcting 'If the High Version ocurred, the feelings will be of mutual love.' since the original quote DOES NOT SPECIFY THE HIGH VERSION, 'They only share feelings in the high version' precludes feelings being shared in the other version.
Claim: The movie doesn't say Cloud was in SOLDIER.
True, only Rufus mentions that - who we already saw having to clue about that.
Claim: Rufus says that Cloud claimed to be a SOLDIER. This differs from Rufus saying Cloud was in SOLDIER. I said 'in some versions of AC'. In some translated versions, like the French and the German one, though the subtitles correct that.
Claim: LL, CR and other Cleriths only want to attack the "canonity" of the High Affection Scene and fail to provide sources for their own beliefs.
So, this will be said directly to you, dear GymLeaderDevil:
The High Affection Scene has never been "proven" to be canon or default - you just wanted it to be so. While debating over them, it becomes clear that the "evidence" is quite porous and that the quotes are highly equivocal.
No, the evidence is neither 'porous' nor equivocal, if you have the actual statements on the matter. In your reply alone, you have misquoted these at least three times. This may by why you think they are equivocal.
Our evidence for saying that there is no canon couple was supported by:
* the lack of any quote proving a romantic couple as canon
* Nomura saying he doesn't care who loves whom, that he doesn't have any clue about it, and that he wants to leave that open for interpretation
Nomura and Nojima of a later date provide a different viewpoint. Nomura knows that one of Tifa's roles in the world is someone's beloved. Nojima knows Tifa belongs with Cloud. They also know Tifa has a future with Cloud.
Your claim that I should prove my preference canon doesn't make sense. I said that I prefer Clerith and that I enjoy my "ship". I do not claim it to be true or canon or default. I could also have said I prefer CloudxRinoa or that I don't like any ship that involves Cloud or Zacks or Tifa or Aerith. So are you saying I should provide sources and supporting quotes for CloudxRinoa?
...You're kidding, right?
You are attacking a massive strawman here. And stating claims contrary to previous actions. If you simply prefer C/A, why the big fuss against C/T's status as the pairing that occurred in the narrative? That's what all this is about, after all.
Claim: There is no quote saying anything about Cloud and Aerith being involved romantically.
True. The only mention of something "romantic" would be the date scene that was listed on the Love-Page, making the Aerith date romantic.[/quote]
But this does not count for the Highwind scene? Even though the quote on the same page does not mention variation for the Highwind but does for the date? And when Cloud is still clueless about both women's intentions for him?
I would also like to ask one question.
Tifa asks Cloud in the High Version if he thinks the stars can hear how hard they fight for them. Ähm, however, they did never fight for the stars. They fought for the planet. I've heard that 'hoshi' can equally mean 'planet/earth' and 'star', so maybe this is a translation error?
The sentence would make far more sense if it would say 'planet' rather than 'stars'.
"Do you think the planet can hear us? Do you think he knows how hard we're fighting for him?"
Uhm. Idk with LL, but Ryu didn't give out a scan of the page of the four most notable scenes in FF7... So I guess she still has the FTOIL page in mind?
I hope they really were. I could generalize like LL. I tried, but it was of no use.
FHS said:
You know, I watched ACC last night and thought about it from the standpoint of never having played the game, and I can honestly see where some things/scenes could be viewed in a romantic light, but knowing the overall context helps a lot. Clerith is a really sweet pairing, it's just not supported in the overall compilation and I think that's where a lot of the arguments stem from. If you take only certain pieces and segregate them, then yeah, you could skew things (like Yuffie and Cloud's kiss) but the overall story and plot don't support 'all' pairings. There is a distinct, logical conclusion.
Oh. Uhm. I'm not really interested in proving Clerith is canon. I just want people to see that they really had a romance.
I'm a Clerith because I choose to be. And I've met people who beat the game recently and still saw Clerith... So...
EDIT:
FHS said:
Yeah, but it can be walls of text and feel like being attacked, so if it gets too much, please don't hesitate to mention it. None of us will think badly of it.
Uhm. Idk with LL, but Ryu didn't give out a scan of the page of the four most notable scenes in FF7... So I guess she still has the FTOIL page in mind?
(The scene fades in to Cloud's room at the Ghost Hotel. He is standing
by the window, watching the rain storm outside. There comes a knock at
the door. Cloud goes to answer it, but before he gets there, Aerith bursts
in.)
Aerith
"Hee, hee!"
Cloud
"What's wrong?"
(She leans toward Cloud)
Aerith
"You want to go on a date?"
Cloud
"What?"
Aerith
"A DA-TE! Or haven't you ever gone on one?"
<CHOICE>
Don't take me for a fool
Well, not a real one...
***Cloud
Don't take me for a fool
(He crosses his arms)
Aerith
"Hey... a littke touchy, aren't we?"
***Cloud
Well, not a real one...
Aerith
"No, just a mixed-up kid..."
(She runs around behind him and starts pushing him out the door)
Aerith
"Oh well. Come on, let's go."
Cloud
"Hey."
(They end up at the Station Square. An attendant greets them)
"Tonight's Enchantment Night! All the attractions are free."
"How 'bout it you two? There's going to be an entertaining show
in Event Square!"
Aerith
"Come on, let's go."
(They go to the Event Square. For the first time, the seats are filled.)
"Congratulations!!"
"You are our 100th couple today!"
"You two will be the leads in tonight's show!!!!"
Cloud
"Wha?"
"Oh, now, it's not hard. Just play it however you want to and
the rest of the cast will cover up for you."
"Come this way."
Cloud
"H, hey!"
Aerith
"This sounds like fun. Come on Cloud, let's do it."
(The scene switches to the stage at the front of Event Square. The
backdrop is decked out with paintings of a house, a Debu Chocobo, and
"GOLD SAUCER" scrawled in clumsy white letters.)
Narration
"Long, long ago..."
"An evil shadow appeared over the peaceful kingdom of Galdia..."
"Princess Rosa was just kidnapped by the Evil Dragon King,
Valvados. What will become of her?"
"Just then, the legendary hero, Alfred, appears!!"
(Cloud is pushed out on stage. A knight dances over next to him)
Knight
"Oh... You must be the legendary hero... Alfred!"
(Cloud sort of looks around)
Knight
"Hey, it's your line."
(Cloud points to himself)
Knight
"Yeah, you."
"Ahem!"
(The knight stands up and starts rolling his head)
Knight
"Oh... You must be the legendary hero... Alfred!"
"I know in my soul. Please... please save Princess Rosa!"
(He kneels and raises his arms)
Knight
"Now... Please talk... to the King....!!"
(The King dances out on stage. Cloud runs over to him)
King
"Oh... legendary hero, Alfred. You have come to save my beloved
Rosa..."
"On the peak of a dangerous mountain... dwells the Evil Dragon
King, Valvados... who's kidnapped Princess Rosa..."
"But... you can't beat the Evil Dragon King now! Talk to one who
can help you......."
(A wizard dances out on stage)
Who will you talk to?
<CHOICE>
The knight
The wizard
***Cloud
The knight
(Cloud runs over to the knight)
Knight
"I am... a lowly... knight. How... can I help you?"
<CHOICE>
Defeat the Evil Dragon King
Defeat the King
***Cloud
Defeat the Evil Dragon King
Narration
"Oh what is going to happen next...! Oh... Legendary hero...
look!"
(Every one gasps hugely. A giant stuffed dragon swings out on stage,
holding Aerith, who is playing the part of the Princess.)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaah!"
"I am the Evil Dragon King... Valvados! I have not harmed the
Princess... I have been expecting... you!"
Princess
"Please help me... Legendary Hero!"
(She looks up at the dragon)
Princess
"psst...... like that?"
EDK
"Gaaaaaah! Here I come, Legendary hero... Alfred!"
"I already know... your name!"
(The knight runs over to EDK and starts bopping him.)
Knight
"Urrrrrgh!!"
(EDK knocks him down)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaaahh! What now... Legendary Hero!?"
<CHOICE>
To the Princess
To the King
To home
***Cloud
To the Princess
(Cloud runs over to the Princess, kneels, and kisses her hand.)
Princess
"Cloud... I mean, Alfred..."
(They both stand up. EDK starts throwing a tantrum)
EDK
"Arrggaahhh!! Curses...... The power of... love!!"
(EDK is pulleyed off the top of the stage)
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The wizard nods, hugely)
"Yes let's... yes let's...!"
(They all dance off the stage)
Narration
Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero
Alfred and our story live on happily ever after."
***Cloud
To the King
(Cloud runs over to the King, kneels, and kisses his hand.)
King
"Oh......... Alfred...! In truth... I too......"
(EDK starts throwing a tantrum)
EDK
"Arrggaahhh!! Curses....... The power of... love!!"
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The wizard nods, hugely)
"Yes let's... yes let's...!"
(They all dance off the stage, except Aerith, who is left standing there.)
Narration
Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero
Alfred and our story live on happily ever after."
(The crowd cheers)
Aerith
"Wh, what is this?"
(She looks down.)
Aerith
"You can't do this!"
***Cloud
To home
(The King and wizard start dancing)
King
"Come on! No more!"
(Aerith gets up)
Aerith
"Stop it Cloud! What are you doing!?"
(They stop dancing)
Aerith
"The play's a disaster! Now I'm getting mad!"
(She runs over and smacks Cloud, who spins around a few times and falls
over. EDK starts laughing)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaahh! You dare ignore me!!"
Aerith
"Why don't you shut up, Blabbermouth!!"
(She does a flying tackle into EDK, who goes flying offstage. The crowd
cheers!)
Narration
"Oh my....... what an unusually strong Princess! And so the new
legendary hero Rosa and our story ends happily ever after."
<//>
***Cloud
Defeat the King
Narration
"Oh what is going to happen next...! Oh... Legendary hero... look!"
(Every one gasps hugely. A giant stuffed dragon swings out on stage,
holding Aerith, who is playing the part of the Princess.)
EDK
"What ho! Do you dare ignore the Evil Dragon King!?"
"Gaaaaaaah!"
"I am the Evil Dragon King... Valvados! I have not harmed the
Princess... I have been expecting... you!"
Princess
"Please help me... Legendary Hero!"
(She looks up at the dragon)
Princess
"psst...... like that?"
EDK
"Who is your enemy...? Say it!"
<CHOICE>
The Evil... Dragon King...
The King
That Knight
***Cloud
The Evil... Dragon King...
(Cloud runs over and kisses EDK's paw.)
EDK
"What..."
"Urrrrrrgh"
(EDK is pulleyed up and a beautiful girl drops down in his place.)
Beautiful Girl
"Thank... you. You've released me... from the spell and I am
back to my normal self..."
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The knight and wizard nod enthusiastically)
"Yes let's... yet let's...!"
(They all dance off stage, except Aerith, who is left standing there.)
Narration
Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero
Alfred and our story live on happily ever after."
(Aerith shakes her head)
Aerith
"Wh, what is this?"
(She looks down.)
Aerith
"You can't do this!"
***Cloud
The King
(The King, knight and wizard start dancing)
King
"Come on! No more!"
Aerith gets up)
Aerith
"Stop it Cloud! What are you doing!?"
(They stop dancing)
Aerith
"The play's a disaster! Now I'm getting mad!"
(She runs over and smacks Cloud, who spins around a few times and falls
over. EDK starts laughing)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaahh! You dare ignore me!!"
Aerith
"Why don't you shut up, Blabbermouth!!"
(She does a flying tackle into EDK, who goes flying offstage. The crowd
cheers!)
Narration
"Oh my....... what an unusually strong Princess! And so the new
legendary hero Rosa and or story ends happily ever after."
***Cloud
That knight
(Same as choosing "The King")
<//>
<//>
***Cloud
The wizard
(Cloud runs over to the wizard)
Wizard
"I am the great wizard, Vorman. What do you wish to know?"
<CHOICE>
The Evil Dragon King's weakness
The Princess' measurements
***Cloud
The Evil Dragon King's weakness
Wizard
"Ahh, the weakness of the Evil Dragon King. It must be, it must
be..."
"Yes, it must be... True love!"
"The power of love... is the only weapon that can withstand the
fangs of the Evil Dragon King...!"
Narration
"Oh what is going to happen next...! Oh... Legendary hero... look!"
(Every one gasps hugely. A giant stuffed dragon swings out on stage,
holding Aerith, who is playing the part of the Princess.)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaah!"
"I am the Evil Dragon King... Valvados! I have not harmed the
Princess... I have been expecting... you!"
Princess
"Please help me... Legendary Hero!"
(She looks up at the dragon)
Princess
"psst...... like that?"
EDK
"Gaaaaaah! Here I come, Legendary hero... Alfred!"
"I already know... your name!"
Wizard
"And now... Legendary Hero...! Here is what will happen... to
your beloved......."
(He spreads his arms)
Wizard
"A kiss! The power of True Love!!"
<CHOICE>
Kiss the Princess
Kiss the King
Kiss the Evil Dragon King
***Cloud
Kiss the Princess
(Cloud runs over to the Princess, kneels, and kisses her hand.)
Princess
"Cloud... I mean, Alfred..."
(They both stand up. EDK starts throwing a tantrum)
EDK
"Arrggaahhh!! Curses...... The power of... love!!"
(EDK is pulleyed off the top of the stage)
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The wizard nods, hugely)
"Yes let's... yes let's...!"
(They all dance off the stage)
Narration
Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero
Alfred and our story live on happily ever after."
***Cloud
Kiss the King
(Cloud runs over to the King, kneels, and kisses his hand.)
King
"Oh......... Alfred...! In truth... I too......"
(EDK starts throwing a tantrum)
EDK
"Arrggaahhh!! Curses....... The power of... love!!"
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The wizard nods, hugely)
"Yes let's... yes let's...!"
(They all dance off the stage, except Aerith, who is left standing there.)
Narration
Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero
lfred and our story live on happily ever after."
(The crowd cheers)
Aerith
"Wh, what is this?"
(She looks down.)
Aerith
"You can't do this!"
***Cloud
Kiss the Evil Dragon King
(Cloud runs over and kisses EDK's paw.)
EDK
"What..."
"Urrrrrrgh"
(EDK is pulleyed up and a beautiful girl drops down in his place.)
Beautiful Girl
"Thank... you. You've released me... from the spell and I am back
to my normal self..."
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The knight and wizard nod enthusiastically)
"Yes let's... yet let's...!"
(They all dance off stage, except Aerith, who is left standing there.)
Narration
Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero
Alfred and our story live on happily ever after."
(Aerith shakes her head)
Aerith
"Wh, what is this?"
(She looks down.)
Aerith
"You can't do this!"
<//>
***Cloud
The Princess' measurements
(Same as choosing "The King" for the Knight's half.)
<//>
<//>
(Cloud and Aerith end up back in Station Square.)
Aerith
"Oh, that was fun. Hey, let's go on the Gondola."
(They head to the Round Square.)
Aerith
"Two, please."
"Here you are, two tickets."
"Enjoy the sights of the Gold Saucer."
(The gondola trundles off. The camera switches to the interior of the
gondola, Aerith sitting on one side, Cloud on the other. Aerith looks
out the window constantly.)
Aerith
"Wow, how nice."
(Cloud looks out the window. FMV sequence of the gondola passing through
beautiful searchlights, rides, and various happy things.)
Aerith
"Oh! Look, Cloud."
(Cloud looks out the window. FMV sequence as the gondola passes the
Chocobo track and the Chocobos hurtle past the window.)
Aerith
"It's so pretty."
(FMV sequence. The gondola rumbles along its track, through dazzling
fireworks, lighting up the entire Saucer.)
Aerith
"It's beautiful, isn't it?"
(She looks down)
Aerith
".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly
alike."
"Two completely different people, but look exactly the same."
"The way you walk, gesture..."
"I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
(She shakes her head)
Aerith
"But you're different."
(She looks down again)
Aerith
"Things are different..."
(FMV sequence. The entire exterior of the Gold Saucer is lit up with
fabulous, starry fireworks displays. Aerith continues to speak.)
Aerith
"Cloud..."
"I'm searching for you..."
Cloud
"............?"
Aerith
"I want to meet you."
Cloud
"But I'm right here."
Aerith
(I know, I know... what I mean
is...)
"I want to meet..... you."
(One final, brightest, most stunnning yellow flower of fire lights up the
night sky. The gondola returns to Round Square.)
Aerith
"I had fun tonight. Let's go together again."
"You don't like being with me?"
<CHOICE>
Yeah
That's not it
***Cloud
Yeah
(Cloud nods)
Aerith
"Oh, don't tease me like that!"
***Cloud
That's not it
(Cloud shakes his head)
Aerith
"I'm glad."
"Next time we come, let's take our time and go on more rides."
<//>
Aerith
"Oh, look at the time. We'd better get going."
(Cloud nods. They both head off.)
Tifa
"..........."
Cloud
"What's wrong Tifa?"
(She looks down.)
Tifa
"I thought about what I was going to say, but it's kinda embrassing."
(She looks up.)
Tifa
"Hey Cloud..."
"Why don't the two of us sneak out of here?"
"And spend some quality time together?"
(Tifa goes behind him and starts pushing him out the door.)
Tifa
"Come on, let's go."
(Cloud poorly resists.)
Cloud
"Hey...."
(They end up at the Station Square. An attendant greets them)
"Tonight's Enchantment Night! All the attractions are free."
"How 'bout it you two? There's going to be an entertaining show in Event Square!"
Tifa
"Come on, let's go."
(They go to the Event Square. For the first time, the seats are filled.)
"Congratulations!!"
"You are our 100th couple today!"
"You two will be the leads in tonight's show!!!!"
Cloud
"Wha?"
"Oh, now, it's not hard. Just play it however you want to and the rest of the cast will cover up for you."
"Come this way."
Cloud
"H, hey!"
Tifa
"This sounds like fun. Come on Cloud, let's do it."
(The scene switches to the stage at the front of Event Square. The backdrop is decked out with paintings of a house, a Debu Chocobo, and "GOLD SAUCER" scrawled in clumsy white letters.)
Narration
"Long, long ago..."
"An evil shadow appeared over the peaceful kingdom of Galdia..."
"Princess Rosa was just kidnapped by the Evil Dragon King, Valvados. What will become of her?"
"Just then, the legendary hero, Alfred, appears!!"
(Cloud is pushed out on stage. A knight dances over next to him)
Knight
"Oh... You must be the legendary hero... Alfred!"
(Cloud sort of looks around)
Knight
"Hey, it's your line."
(Cloud points to himself)
Knight
"Yeah, you."
"Ahem!"
(The knight stands up and starts rolling his head)
Knight
"Oh... You must be the legendary hero... Alfred!"
"I know in my soul. Please... please save Princess Rosa!"
(He kneels and raises his arms)
Knight
"Now... Please talk... to the King....!!"
(The King dances out on stage. Cloud runs over to him)
King
"Oh... legendary hero, Alfred. You have come to save my beloved Rosa..."
"On the peak of a dangerous mountain... dwells the Evil Dragon King, Valvados... who's kidnapped Princess Rosa..."
"But... you can't beat the Evil Dragon King now! Talk to one who can help you......."
(A wizard dances out on stage)
(Cloud runs over to the knight)
Knight
"I am... a lowly... knight. How... can I help you?"
Cloud
"Defeat the Evil Dragon King"
Narration
"Oh what is going to happen next...! Oh... Legendary hero... look!"
(Every one gasps hugely. A giant stuffed dragon swings out on stage, holding Tifa, who is playing the part of the Princess.)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaah!"
"I am the Evil Dragon King... Valvados! I have not harmed the Princess..."
"I have been expecting... you!"
Princess
"Please help me... Legendary Hero!"
(She looks up at the dragon)
Princess
"Like that?"
EDK
"Gaaaaaah! Here I come, Legendary hero... Alfred!"
"I already know... your name!"
(The knight runs over to EDK and starts bopping him.)
Knight
"Urrrrrgh!!"
(EDK knocks him down)
EDK
"Gaaaaaaaahh! What now... Legendary Hero!?"
(Cloud runs over to the Princess, kneels, and kisses her hand.)
Princess
"Cloud... I mean, Alfred..."
(They both stand up. EDK starts throwing a tantrum)
EDK
"Arrggaahhh!! Curses...... The power of... love!!"
(EDK is pulleyed off the top of the stage)
King
"Oh... look! Love has... triumphed!"
"Now let's all return... And celebrate."
(The wizard nods, hugely)
Wizard
"Yes let's... yes let's...!"
(They all dance off the stage)
Narration
"Oh, how profound the power of love... And so the legendary hero Alfred and our story live on happily ever after."
(Cloud and Tifa end up back in Station Square.)
Tifa
"Oh, that was fun. Hey, let's go on the Gondola."
(They head to the Round Square.)
Tifa
"Two, please."
Employee
"Here you are, two tickets."
(Cloud and Tifa walk into the Gondala and it begins to move.)
Employee
"Enjoy the sights of the Gold Saucer!"
(The camera switches to the interior of the gondola, Tifa sitting on one side, Cloud on the other. Tifa looks out the window constantly.)
Tifa
"Oh, how pretty."
(Cloud looks out the window. FMV sequence of the gondola passing through beautiful searchlights, rides, and various happy things.)
Tifa
"Look Cloud!"
(Cloud looks out the window. FMV sequence as the gondola passes the Chocobo track and the Chocobos hurtle past the window.)
Tifa
"Oh, Cloud..."
(FMV sequence. The gondola rumbles along its track, through dazzling fireworks, lighting up the entire Saucer.)
(Tifa stops looking out the window, leans back in her seat, and looks down.)
Tifa
"It's really pretty, isn't it?"
"Okay, I'm going to just go ahead and say it..."
Cloud
"...What?"
Tifa
"Aerith would be able to just come out and say it, probably."
(FMV sequence. The entire exterior of the Gold Saucer is lit up with fabulous, starry fireworks displays. Tifa continues to speak.)
Tifa
"Cloud...."
"Sometimes being old friends is hard."
"I mean, timing is everything, right?"
(One final, brightest, most stunnning yellow flower of fire lights up the night sky. The gondola returns to Round Square. Both Cloud and Tifa get out.)
Tifa
"I had a really nice time tonight."
Cloud
"What was it you were trying to say just now?"
Tifa
"Oh... it's nothing."
"Right, nothing."
"Oh, look at the time, we better get going."
Now, Tifa's date doesn't have ALL the play options listed because it's the same for each girl no matter what you choose.
, comparing how Cloud is affected with Zack's death to Aerith, it's not similar, one is definitely above the other.
I see no proof of Aerith's death being above Zack's. They were both of equal importance - I see it the opposite way, that neither is above the other. It's DEATH of two important people, not a battle of who Cloud loves more or anything like that. His reactions to both deaths are traumatizing experiences that effect and wound him greatly.
I don't see that at all... I loathe Rinoa and I adore Aerith so I could go into great detail about how different they are if you'd like. Not to mention Cloud is NOTHING like Squall... Lightning is more comparable to Squall.
Squall and Cloud are mercenaries, Rinoa and Aerith both special women who have unique powers.
That description fits a multitude of characters. That's like me saying,
"Hey Lightning is an ex soldier and Vanille has a bubbly personality! Lightning x Vanille = Cloud x Aerith!"
squall was sort of a complete butthole to rinoa past the first disc. he was pretty busy being like 'ugh i hate everyone i wish they'd all go away ugh ugh' until... well until past when i stopped playing in the second disc around that prison junk
so even just by going with that junk, squall and rinoa have at least more than one disc of development and i would hopefully assume, more than just a couple of weeks unless the time shit in ff8 is even shittier than i had anticipated
It isn't clear how much time passes between things like Balamb Garden going mobile and it wrecking into FH, or how much time passes between the end of Disc 1 and beginning of Disc 2, or the end of Disc 2 and the beginning of Disc 3, but the events of the first disc all happen in the span of two or three days.
During the scenario in Timber, Squall mentions that Galbadia got the Dollet communication tower up and running the previous day, so the SeeD Field Exam took place only then, and that happened on the day the game began.
So, assuming that the passage of time from the mishap at the TV station in Timber to the end of the parade in Deling City was about a day, the entire first disc might have spanned 72 hours.
The longest period of time in the game probably took place over the course of the second disc, but it's entirely unclear how long that may have been. Considering all the world travel, though, I'd assume it was weeks.
Still, the point remains that Squall probably fell in love with Rinoa in an amount of time comparable to that which Cloud knew Aerith prior to her death.
IF cloud and Tifa only share feelings in the high version AND IF Cloud and Tifa share romantic feelings for each other THEN The feelings Cloud and Tifa share in the high version will be romantic.
HOWEVER, IF Cloud and Tifa can share feelings in both versions AND Cloud and Tifa share romantic feelings for each other THEN they will share these feelings in either version.
The FTOIL page DOES NOT SPECIFY A VERSION.
True, but -- and not that you're necessarily disagreeing with this; I just think the point should be emphasized as much as possible -- I'd say it's implicitly referring to the high affection version. The statements related to mutual feelings being shared could only be in reference to the high affection version since we witness no discussion about or display of mutual feelings in the low affection version.
Claim: SE had something sexual in mind when they made the High Affection Scene.
No. It was said that the High Affection Scene was developed by Kato and that the idea was "too extreme" so they had to turn it down.
The statement was that they couldn't have expected the line to be "so important," not that they didn't think it was important at all. He probably meant that with regard to how contentious it became.
The notion that the line itself was not considered important is altogether at odds with the fact that the scene is featured on that Impressive Scenes page from the U20 Scenario.
Lady Lifestream said:
Claim: Cloud and Aerith did never confirm their love for each other.
Cloud and Tifa can optionally confirm their feelings without words.
So Cloud and Aerith wouldn't have to confirm their feelings by a single "I love you". So the players would know through their actions, and actions are highly ambiguous.
Unless there is something stated, it didn't happen.
First, how can you conclude this thought with "Unless there is something stated, it didn't happen" right after saying that Cloud and Aerith could have confirmed their feelings without us hearing them? There's no statement that they did such a thing.
Did you really contradict your own claim within the same paragraph?
Anywho, you're not providing any evidence that Cloud and Aerith did confirm such a thing, so it's plainly dishonest of you to attempt to equivocate this non-existent moment to a scene with Cloud and Tifa that has been stated to have occurred.
Hell, even if you want to erroneously claim that it's only been stated to be an option, that's still more than can be said about such a scene between Cloud and Aerith.
Which underscores the nonsense in this entire discussion. The request has been thrown around a lot, and it keeps getting ignored: can anyone who would like to argue that CxA is on equal footing with CxT provide a single quote from within any game/movie/other title in the Compilation, or a single quote from any Ultimania, that is equivalent to the Crisis Core Ultimania's quote that Cloud fell in love with Tifa as a teenager? Or the statement from Cloud's subconscious that Cloud would be delighted to hear that Tifa had feelings for him? Or all the quotes and references to Cloud and Tifa sharing romantic feelings for each other beneath the Highwind?
Seriously, if it's supposed to be a balanced equation, why is it so obviously not balanced?
And if you do respond, please give us something better than Cloud being called Aerith's koibito/beloved in Case of the Lifestream White. His status as her koibito tells us only that she loves him, which we already know. She would have to be his koibito for the statement to be about his feelings. That's how the word works.
You mean, for example, a non-optional scene where Cloud kisses Tifa or says, "I love you" to her or anything like that? Something that would actually confirm that Cloti is canon?
Right now, all you've got is an optional scene and SE has made it clear that both versions of that optional scene are possible. They've only made the HA version canon in your opinion - there's nothing official about it.
Without quantum superpositioning, no. The two versions cannot both happen in the narrative. One happens, the other does not. Thus, stating one happens means the other does not.
You just contradicted yourself - one happens and the other does not? Sorry, but the LA version has happened several times while I've played the game.
Putting one in the summary means that it CAN happen, not that it DOES happen. If SE wanted the HA version to happen all the time, then they would have made it non-optional.
Um, the story summary IS saying what happened in the actual story, the actual narrative. So... you're saying 'Okay, here's the story, this is part of the story' is not sufficient for you. I knew this already, I am glad you admit it.
No, it's not sufficient. I want confirmation of a point that's been debated since 1997, and using one version instead of another in a story summary isn't enough to convince me that it's canon.
I need a comment by SE that says something like, "Even though two versions exist for the HW scene, the version where Cloud and Tifa share their love for one another is considered the actual outcome that takes place before AC/ACC." That doesn't just say it happened - it says that one version is actually canon.
So, you want Square Enix to officially declare in exact words that one version scene didn't just happen, it's canon, meaning it's the version that happened.
Not only is this the 'press release mentality' I sometimes mock in a nutshell, but it's very silly besides and though I'm sure you'll take umbrage with this, it's a double standard.
No, it's not a double standard when Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC.
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. I think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
You keep repeating that this divergance being noted means there's no canon version, but have absolutely no problem accepting that other scenes with divergances have canon outcomes.
Your evidence is contradicted when Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC,
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player. CloudxAerith is just as valid an interpretation as CloudxTifa.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
As mentioned, they are not your quotes or our quotes. However, the quotes we are using come from the UO, the U10, the U20, the CCU, and many other places. Our conclusions are based on a full synthesis of the evidence read for comprehension. You are using two quotes read, it seems, for obfuscation, as you rather consistently misquote at least the UO one.
Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC,
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player. CloudxAerith is just as valid an interpretation as CloudxTifa.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
Then we cannot say Shadow lived, since a story summary with a picture is where we see him after his potential demise.
And it's only logical that SE wouldn't show his picture after his demise unless it happened in the game.
But the HW scene wasn't selected as an important highlight of the story in Reminiscence. The HW scene wasn't mentioned anywhere in AC/ACC, the novella's, or DoC.
But it WAS selected as an important highlight of the story in Memorial Album. It was listed as one of the four most important scenes of the game in the book about the first ten games.
So being shown as an important scene in ONE book out of how many books in the Compilation means it's canon?
Instead, there's evidence in those parts of the Compilation that the LA version happened instead of the HA version, such as Cloud and Tifa having separate rooms in CoT,
Which prevents Cloud from sleeping with Tifa how, exactly? My little brother having bad dreams and sleeping with my parents didn't make my Dad suddenly vanish from the bed.
Who have the same sins and burdens. Tifa wasn't saying the family IS made of friends. She said she had gotten along with friends who were like family because of their shared burden. This is in contrast to the idyllic real family that she was forming now.
I didn't say it actually shows that the low affection version happened. However, it sure makes it more likely when Aerith and Cloud's relationship with Aerith is shown to be more important to Cloud than Tifa.
If SE wanted to canonize a love relationship between Cloud and Tifa, they wouldn't be including things like that in the story line. Nothing has been confirmed, either in the Ultimania's or in the Compilation.
You seem to be seeing things entirely backwards. Because in a previous post, you provided the quote saying the Low version's conversation was apathetic and short, which is not compatible with sharing or confirming feelings.
You're also ignoring the whole 'Y or Z can happen, if X happens, Y happens. Y happens, therefor X happened'
And your evidence is contradicted when Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC,
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player. CloudxAerith is just as valid an interpretation as CloudxTifa.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
Did you see the quote that Sesc provided earlier a few posts back?... "From what’s not already depicted in the games and film, interpret/imagine it as you like..."
Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.
Nomura says right there that he's not sure there was a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa in the years prior to AC. Why doesn't he know if the HA version is canon?
Without saying who. Furthermore, the sensai of one of our CloudxAerith forum members says that it makes no sense to use the word "koibito" without saying who the relationship is with.
He also says- IIRC- that he doesn't know ABOUT. Not that he doesn't know IF.
Meaningless difference. It still means he doesn't know. Fact is, he would know if the HA version were canon.
Nojima had decided at this time that Cloud and Tifa belonged together. It had been decided that Cloud and Tifa had a future together. And those are merely quotes from the RF.
And I could say that Tifa and Barret belonged together when they wanted to form Avalanche. Friends can belong together as easily as lovers.
Like, oh, talking about the one they find more important, including it in their story summary, in the official game script, using it as one of the four most important scenes in the game, having it be an example of romantic confessions alongside other games and basically just hammering it into our head that mutual feelings two people had for each other were shared that evening?
I can say the same thing to you. "Cloti is canon" is nothing but your opinion. It has not been validated by SE.
I didn't say it was irrelevant. I said it doesn't prove anything, especially when there's other sources contradicting the idea that the HA version is canon.
None of those 'sources' contradict the idea that the High version happened. You are trying to read into them meaning that allows you to see a contradiction.
No, they're actual contradictions when Nomura says he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC, when Cloud and Tifa have separate bedrooms, when the family is made up of friends, when Tifa doesn't know whether Cloud loves her, etc.
SE took out one image of Aerith and replaced it with several images, along with other characters in the film like Tifa. However, SE still left Cloud in Safe and Sound on Fenrir riding around flowers that represent Aerith instead of having him ride back to the Seventh Heaven. If SE wanted to show Cloud moving on with Tifa, then why didn't they show him going back there
Because they thought the viewers were not complete morons and could gather from the context, such as the phone calls in reminiscence, the addition of a new photo to his desk and taking Denzel to visit Zack's grave that Cloud had returned home to live with the Tifa and the kids. Like we have been officially told he did. Where we've been told he belongs.[/QUOTE]No, it's what you conveniently want to see. The actual context is Cloud surrounded by flowers that represent Aerith. Nomura even said they went to film that part in Hawaii because there were large fields of yellow and white flowers like the ones in Aerith's church. So Cloud is surrounded by Aerith - Tifa is nothing more than a sideline, so to speak.
SE also still showed a flower on Cloud's desk before going to Safe and Sound, so we know he stopped in the flower fields representing Aerith.
So the emphasis is still on Aerith in the ending instead of Tifa.
What we know is that Cloud stopped to make a phone call to Tifa on his way home from deliveries. At some point, he might have grabbed a flower, or he might have taken one from the few he planted at Zack's grave while he moved Zack's sword to Aerith's church.
If the ending focuses on anything other than Cloud's moving forward, it's focusing on Zerith.
It isn't clear how much time passes between things like Balamb Garden going mobile and it wrecking into FH, or how much time passes between the end of Disc 1 and beginning of Disc 2, or the end of Disc 2 and the beginning of Disc 3, but the events of the first disc all happen in the span of two or three days.
During the scenario in Timber, Squall mentions that Galbadia got the Dollet communication tower up and running the previous day, so the SeeD Field Exam took place only then, and that happened on the day the game began.
So, assuming that the passage of time from the mishap at the TV station in Timber to the end of the parade in Deling City was about a day, the entire first disc might have spanned 72 hours.
The longest period of time in the game probably took place over the course of the second disc, but it's entirely unclear how long that may have been. Considering all the world travel, though, I'd assume it was weeks.
Still, the point remains that Squall probably fell in love with Rinoa in an amount of time comparable to that which Cloud knew Aerith prior to her death.
Though, Squall has the benefit of being cognizant that Rinoa liked his ass. And a bit more time in that span of time for self reflection and realization. 8 has more down time compared to the rather frenetic 7.
True, but -- and not that you're necessarily disagreeing with this; I just think the point should be emphasized as much as possible -- I'd say it's implicitly referring to the high affection version. The statements related to mutual feelings being shared could only be in reference to the high affection version since we witness no discussion about or display of mutual feelings in the low affection version.
I agree, but I also think it should be emphasized that at no point does it make explicit mention OF the high highwind version. There is no mention of the AV, or 'if', or the versions, or anything like that. Simply a declaration of 'this is what happens here', same as every other entry on that page apart from the date.
My point is, the page is both blunt about what happened and completely silent on the subject of any particular version.
Toned down, not turned down. The idea remained, the depiction altered.
Again, for the record, the risque line is 'words aren't the only way to show how you feel,' which must imply some risque action to BE risque, as it has an otherwise perfectly innocent meaning.
First, how can you conclude this thought with "Unless there is something stated, it didn't happen" right after saying that Cloud and Aerith could have confirmed their feelings without us hearing them? There's no statement that they did such a thing.
Did you really contradict your own claim within the same paragraph?
Anywho, you're not providing any evidence that Cloud and Aerith did confirm such a thing, so it's plainly dishonest of you to attempt to equivocate this non-existent moment to a scene with Cloud and Tifa that has been stated to have occurred.
Hell, even if you want to erroneously claim that it's only been stated to be an option, that's still more than can be said about such a scene between Cloud and Aerith.
Which underscores the nonsense in this entire discussion. The request has been thrown around a lot, and it keeps getting ignored: can anyone who would like to argue that CxA is on equal footing with CxT provide a single quote from within any game/movie/other title in the Compilation, or a single quote from any Ultimania, that is equivalent to the Crisis Core Ultimania's quote that Cloud fell in love with Tifa as a teenager? Or the statement from Cloud's subconscious that Cloud would be delighted to hear that Tifa had feelings for him? Or all the quotes and references to Cloud and Tifa sharing romantic feelings for each other beneath the Highwind?
Or the two of them forming a family together, or them having a future together, or the two of them belonging with each other?
Seriously, if it's supposed to be a balanced equation, why is it so obviously not balanced?
And if you do respond, please give us something better than Cloud being called Aerith's koibito/beloved in Case of the Lifestream White. His status as her koibito tells us only that she loves him, which we already know. She would have to be his koibito for the statement to be about his feelings. That's how the word works.
Oh, and for the record, Anastar's essay is NOT evidence. Please refer to the comprehensive trouncing earlier in the thread.
But yes- please establish, factually, that Cloud has an established romance towards Aerith. Like we keep asking. Don't get upset that we don't believe, start working towards it from first principles.
There's a cot in my husband's den also. He also falls asleep on the couch more nights than I care to count.
But yeah... Cot != bed.
Sidenote: the copypasta tactic is about as valid and mature as 'neener neener neener'.
Without saying who. Furthermore, the sensai of one of our CloudxAerith forum members says that it makes no sense to use the word "koibito" without saying who the relationship is with.
This on the other hand is just quoted fft AND gj. I was looking for the right words to express my complete disdain for that nonsense, but you beat me to it FHS.
You mean, for example, a non-optional scene where Cloud kisses Tifa or says, "I love you" to her or anything like that? Something that would actually confirm that Cloti is canon?
Or, for example, two people realizing mutual romantic feelings, then confirming these mutual romantic feelings under the stars, moving in with each other, forming a family together, belonging with each other, and having a future together.
Right now, all you've got is an optional scene and SE has made it clear that both versions of that optional scene are possible. They've only made the HA version canon in your opinion - there's nothing official about it.
You know what is official? The high version is one of the four most important scenes in Final Fantasy 7.
You know what else is official? Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings with each other. Not in any particular version, that's just what happens. If that can only occur in one version, then only one version can happen.
You just contradicted yourself - one happens and the other does not? Sorry, but the LA version has happened several times while I've played the game.
And I've killed Shadow when I played Final Fantasy VI. He lives according to the canon. The event where he dies does not happen in the narrative, even though it happened in my game.
Putting one in the summary means that it CAN happen, not that it DOES happen. If SE wanted the HA version to happen all the time, then they would have made it non-optional.
A story summary is a summary of a story. Putting one in there is an indication that that's the story.
No, it's not sufficient. I want confirmation of a point that's been debated since 1997, and using one version instead of another in a story summary isn't enough to convince me that it's canon.
But it IS enough to convince you that Shadow remained alive. At times. When you're not insisting that it can't. You seem to flip flop on that subject a lot.
No, it's not a double standard when Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there.
Not at all. For one, he said he didn't know about their relationship, not if they were involved or not. For two, if Nomura not knowing ruins the idea of canon entirely, you have just made the Star Wars prequels non-existent. But youve also made episodes 5 and 6 nonexistent too. As a long time Warsie, I must say, your concept of 'not canon because it wasn't always in the story' is patently nonsense, to put it quite generously.
And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You keep repeating that they have different bedrooms, but this is simply YOUR assumption.
You keep asserting that a story divergance means that this scene can't be canon, but you admit other scenes with divergences HAVE CANON OUTCOMES. In addition, even with the noting of story divergences, we have 8 instances, including another quote on p232 where we're told what happens that evening. An IF/THEN does not negate there being an official outcome.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
Yes, we know. You remain willfully obdurate against the evidence.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC.
Even if I grant ALL of that arguendo, it's still in a superior argumentative position than C/A. But you know what, it HAS been confirmed by SE. Cloud and Tifa's confirmation has been listed as happening, period, end of speech, on the page dedicated to romantic confessions.
And please, don't give me any of this 'neither is canon' nonsense, we both know full well that you don't believe that and a quick look at your site or your forums will reveal you think C/A actually happens.
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. I think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The picture was not labeled has having a divergence. The page lists no divergence. You must head to a different page entirely and even then look in a side bar and not the story section to find the mention of divergence. THE C/T quote, like those of all the other entries on the page from FFIII to FFX contains no mention of divergence.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player.
No. It isn't. Because even IF C/T is entirely optional, there is no choice to have Cloud declare any sort of romance for Aerith as he does for Tifa in the Highwind scene.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
Let it be known for the benefit of all and sundry that Anastar is willfully admitting to Broken Record debating tactics.
Your evidence is contradicted when Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC,
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player. CloudxAerith is just as valid an interpretation as CloudxTifa.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC,
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player. CloudxAerith is just as valid an interpretation as CloudxTifa.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
In other words, folks, any time Anastar gets uncomfortable with thinking too hard about what we say, she's going to retreat into a broken record canned response.
And it's only logical that SE wouldn't show his picture after his demise unless it happened in the game.
Anastar, you have quite blatantly applied an easily visible double standard.
Here, showing a picture of Shadow after his potential death scene IN A STORY SUMMARY is enough for you to conclude he lived. Above, showing the high highwind scene IN A STORY SUMMARY means nothing.
So being shown as an important scene in ONE book out of how many books in the Compilation means it's canon?[/quote]
Anastar, he listed two books, and there's several more besides.
No, Tifa calls it "your room" in CoT - not "your office" - when she tells him to go "drink in your room". Sounds like he sleeps there to me.
Cloud is not seeing members of the family growing increasingly insular as a result of their own guilt hangups. He's the one doing that.
I didn't say it actually shows that the low affection version happened. However, it sure makes it more likely when Aerith and Cloud's relationship with Aerith is shown to be more important to Cloud than Tifa.
And where is it said that these things ARE more important to Cloud?
And your evidence is contradicted when Nomura says things like he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC/ACC. That contradicts your idea of "canon" right there. And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.
You can make convenient "excuses" for all those things, but sorry - I don't buy any of them.
That's the thing - I've repeated myself numerous times now. Cloti has only been confirmed in your opinion, but you're stating it as fact. It is NOT fact because it has not been confirmed in any way by SE. It was not confirmed by anything that happened after the HW scene in FFVII, it was not confirmed by anything in AC or ACC, it was not confirmed by anything in the novella's, and it was not confirmed by anything in DoC,
I won't believe it until SE confirms it, and neither will the other members of my forum. We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.
The answer is simple. That means that who Cloud loves is up to the player. CloudxAerith is just as valid an interpretation as CloudxTifa.
From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.
I'm sorry, when did the date of this interview change again? And even IF it was post AC's release, A: He's not saying what you think he's saying and B: we still have all the even more recent quotes. We have both the most up to date evidence and the preponderance of it.
Without saying who. Furthermore, the sensai of one of our CloudxAerith forum members says that it makes no sense to use the word "koibito" without saying who the relationship is with.
The word romanizes as 'sensei,' and her 'sensai' is either full of it or she's misunderstanding what was said. To say someone is a Koibito needs someone to love that person. And yes, he doesn't say who. But Nomura ALSO thinks that you don't need to be spoonfed the answers. All the answers are there, you just have to find them. This one's kind of blinking in neon.
Meaningless difference. It still means he doesn't know. Fact is, he would know if the HA version were canon.
Who gives a crap what you could say? We're talking about what the CREATORS actually SAID. I note you ignore the 'future together' quote, and quite adamantly refuse to consider any sort of context.
That's only how you see it and your opinion. Aren't people allowed to have different opinions?
It is not my opinion that SE have been " talking about the one they find more important, including it in their story summary, in the official game script, using it as one of the four most important scenes in the game, having it be an example of romantic confessions alongside other games".
There's a whole bunch of people who frankly think your evidence is full of crap - it's not just me.
I know. And they're wrong too. I'm informed of their opinions because I keep getting told about them by someone who quite frankly finds you all absolutely hilarious.
I can say the same thing to you. "Cloti is canon" is nothing but your opinion. It has not been validated by SE.
I've been providing evidence. Evidence you have no response to save sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALALALA!
No, they're actual contradictions when Nomura says he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC, when Cloud and Tifa have separate bedrooms, when the family is made up of friends, when Tifa doesn't know whether Cloud loves her, etc.
You really seem to not understand the meaning of the word contradiction, Aly. Because again, none of those are contradictions. What IS a contradiction, for the record, is stating that a story summary is insufficient to validate one particular outcome of a deviating event happening, and then saying only a few minutes later, that a story summary is sufficient to validate a particular outcome of a deviating event as happening.
No, it's what you conveniently want to see. The actual context is Cloud surrounded by flowers that represent Aerith.
Cloud is not surrounded. There are occasionally flowers in the shot, but most often it's simply green fields. And yes, the context DOES include reminiscence, it DOES include Cloud heading home after his deliveries and asking Tifa to close the bar tomorrow.
Nomura even said they went to film that part in Hawaii because there were large fields of yellow and white flowers like the ones in Aerith's church. So Cloud is surrounded by Aerith - Tifa is nothing more than a sideline, so to speak.
Cloud is then ignoring Aerith apart from picking a couple flowers as he heads home.
But that's what this is all about, isn't it. You think people aren't giving Aerith her due.
Only in your opinion, which proves nothing. In my opinion, the ending clearly focuses on CloudxAerith.
No, not in my opinion. I listed all the evidence in favor of the position. But good show on quite soundly knocking down your OWN ARGUMENT in two sentences!
This doesn't mean anything. No offense, but it really doesn't prove anything.
By this logic, there is no canon version of the final Kefka battle. Or Exdeath battle.
Or Tidus living or remaining dead.
And it HAS actually been reflected in the story, both in a complete script of the game AND in story playback sections.
It's a thought. You like to analyze things quite a bit, so I am too.
And the Nojima quote, which was relevant before, isn't anymore? Okay. I agree.
Despite it being an interview with the three of them about the making of FF7? Not important. At all. And what they didn't expect was that the line was going to be so contentious.
We're not ignoring his quote. We're A: Providing context, and B: Noting that Nomura himself recognizes, as of 2006, that Tifa is someone's beloved at the very least.
I don't believe that translation. And it's ironic you'd ignore this quote, of all of them.
And you summarily missed my entire joke. Also, considering I know folks are shit talking about me over in your forums, pardon me if I'm not entirely convinced.
We talk badly about this entire thread to vent. Look at it. It's so biased. I know that you know this. We're getting laughed at, spat on, insulted, sworn at. Over what?
It will be listened to. It will be ripped apart if it is found lacking.
Here's where we get into equivocation. 'Sharing' is used in the sense of 'opening up', not merely 'both holding,' since it is also said these feelings are confirmed. It's something done that night, not a state of existence. An apathetic conversion is not a conversation in which feelings can be shared, as it lacks feelings by definition.
I'm saying that Cloud cares for Tifa. That wasn't me paraphrasing anything.
But the FTOIL page doesn't specify a version. It merely says romantic feelings are confirmed without words. That's what it says occurs in the narrative. P232 also says that feelings are confirmed in the course of the story. The two quotes, and the sidebar aren't at odds with each other, they're all informing each other. Feelings are shared that night. Those feelings are romantic feelings. If the AV is high, feelings are shared earnestly. If they are low, the conversation that occurs is apathetic- lacking feelings- and short. All of these, and more, all work in synthesis with each other, but again, the FTOIL page never says the romantic feelings are only shared in the high highwind version. Quotes which say 'if the AV is high, feelings are shared' don't mention romance, they just say the feelings only get shared in a particular circumstance.
Certain places don't mention a different version, yes. But in the "For the one I love" page, which this site has translated and put as a win for Cloud/Tifa, it also had information to go to another page, where it's specified there that there are two versions. I know that this has been said to you, and you'll call this irrelevant. But, you see, some of the people on here on your side are saying that we'll continue to see what we want to see and ignore "the obvious." But the obvious says that showing the versions were specified on that page says nothing about which is canon. Just because it wasn't stated in the description, like it was for the Cloud/Aerith date picture, means nothing. The option is plainly made. It doesn't have to continue to be plainly made every time it's mentioned.
Yes, nothing at all is said regarding the choices the player can make. But that's not how the situation plays out in FF7. In fact, the player choice is actually irrelevant to FF7's narrative. It's more akin to CV than ME.
I'm getting a point across. I said "I know that options we can make in video games can have canon outcomes." That, and Kotor, is me elaborating that I know full well.
This is an example, however, of where what YOU see in the story, and what is the official story are not the same. In fact, as per Lucasfilm canon policy, NOTHING you see in the game is real except the official story bits because of the overlapping canon policy.
It's supposed to be a sort of tie-in to the movies. It's supposed to give background to what's in the movies. That's what I meant, not that it's relevant to the films. Within the Old Republic stories, it's canon.
But you also need to realize that you've also given here an example of something with NO future relevance being canonized by confirmation- Gender. That Revan is male and the Exile is female have no bearing on future events. Yet these things are still canon.
Bastila and Revan canonically "fall in love", which can only happen if Revan is male.
Au contraire. The FTOIL page does. ALL scenes listed on that page are scenes of romantic confessions. By listing the scene on this page, and more importantly labeling the exchange both mutual and without words, they HAVE specified that the feelings exchanged are romantic.
Nothing even remotely similar can be said of Aerith, save that she tried to confess her romantic feelings at a time when Cloud was oblivious.
And it redirects, right above the picture, to a page where the two versions of the Highwind scene are explained. Only the HA version is on the FTOIL page. Like we've said, only the HA one is called romantic. Nothing about which one happened. Doesn't matter anyways. Nothing they talked about there started them in a relationship, so it can't be chalked up that this proves they become "involved" or will become "involved", or that they're, as a couple, canon.
The original japanese reveals that A: It is discussing Tifa's roles in the world, not 'her character' apart from her 'character as a mother' 'her character as an ally' and 'her character as someone's sweetheart.'
And no, it doesn't explicitly confirm Cloud as being who she is the romantically beloved/ sweetheart of. But all other suggestions are simply nowhere near as parsimonious or narratively relevant as the man with whom she formed a family, with whom she raises children, with whom she belongs, with whom she has a future.
Just to ABSOLUTELY forestall future nonsense in this line, I post an image. Not a macro, so Mako, don't wig out.
I have not changed that image since about 2008, I think. I neglect to mention the usage without automatic mutual implications, a la Beloved or 'someone's sweetheart.' Regardless, all the information there IS accurate. That is Nomura speaking. He is saying Tifa is someone's beloved.
You're right. It has been argued over a lot, and translated many times.
I don't believe that translation. This has nothing to do with my honesty.
I've heard from native Japanese speakers, on the internet and in real life, who don't know about or don't care about Final Fantasy, and have no affiliations or biased opinions or heavyweight shipper goggles, and they agree that he's talking about Tifa's character.
It's a bit strange that you're willing to use this statement by Nomura, but not when he says he doesn't know if they're together? If we're using one of them, we should be able to use all of them.
Furthermore, the sensai of one of our CloudxAerith forum members says that it makes no sense to use the word "koibito" without saying who the relationship is with.
Yeah well I am the Sensei of this Forum and also 100% Japanese and you are wrong. I also have tons of Japanese friends and they tell me that Cloti is canon in Japan.
So does the dark hair/dark eyes thing. Rinoa = Tifa duplicate and main love interest. Raine = Tifa duplicate and is main love interest for Laguna (similar plot, too what with Laguna being a soldier, Raine raising a little girl who isn't hers, etc.), Garnet = Tifa mini reincarnation and also the main love interest.
Kairi/Sora = childhood friends
Irvine/Selphie = childhood friends
Penelo/Vaan = childhood friends
Lulu/Wakka = childhood friends
I could go on with my own cloti patterns but...it's sort of pointless.
Claim: LLs debate about the mage thing is pointless.
True. I didn't intend to debate about it that hugely since I know:
* it's most likely untrue
* there is nothing proving it
* it's quite porous
Yeah well I am the Sensei of this Forum and also 100% Japanese and you are wrong. I also have tons of Japanese friends and they tell me that Cloti is canon in Japan.
fun fact: me and my friend chiaki became really good friends when she came to america for an exchange visit cause we both shipped cloti. and i speak japanese. and i ate hotto in yamanashi once with the rest of chiaki's family.
and we still think cloti is canon. possibly cause she's SO JAPANESE
Nomura even said they went to film that part in Hawaii because there were large fields of yellow and white flowers like the ones in Aerith's church. So Cloud is surrounded by Aerith - Tifa is nothing more than a sideline, so to speak.
Bwuahahahahahaha. Okay, first, can I get a source on the flowers being the reason they filmed in Hawaii? Pretty sure that had fuckall to do with it.
I know how hard it is to believe that Advent Children isn't a Clerith wet-dream but the movie stems from the simple idea of a story about Cloud and Tifa and the kids. Tifa's anything but sidelined, ffs.
Yes. It does. Because you're trying to argue NOT AGAINST ME, but THE DICTIONARY.
I've heard from native Japanese speakers, on the internet and in real life, who don't know about or don't care about Final Fantasy, and have no affiliations or biased opinions or heavyweight shipper goggles, and they agree that he's talking about Tifa's character.
And I've heard from Japanese people, and Japanese dictionaries who say that Tachiba does NOT refer to personalities. And you say it does.
You are arguing not just against ME, but against the JAPANESE LANGUAGE ITSELF.
And that's why I said if you had a shred of honesty, you'd admit that the translation here was correct, because the entire time, the sources and the translations were listed. And you denied the translation. Because you're not trying for the truth here. You're trying for your desired conclusion, regardless of the truth.
Then why are you even discussing it? Call them out or let it go.
You will find a way to call it lacking. You know this. Our arguments are never good enough, because you don't like them. they're either weak as hell, fan-wanked into existence, or simply dishonest as fuck. Because, in short, they're wrong.
Fixed that for you. And no, I am not saying the "corrections" I made apply to all Cleriths. Just those who debate in the same manner as you and Anastar.
And it redirects, right above the picture, to a page where the two versions of the Highwind scene are explained. Only the HA version is on the FTOIL page. Like we've said, only the HA one is called romantic. Nothing about which one happened. Doesn't matter anyways. Nothing they talked about there started them in a relationship, so it can't be chalked up that this proves they become "involved" or will become "involved", or that they're, as a couple, canon.
For the (insert large numerical figure here) time, a separate page noting that a deviation exists does not invalidate a damn thing. You know this, you must know this. The context showing that this scene is canon is all there to be found, or thanks to this thread fucking spoon-fed to you after all. And it matters not if you think the HW scene did not start a relationship between them. The same context shows that such a relationship did start. Deal with it already, would you?
It's a bit strange that you're willing to use this statement by Nomura, but not when he says he doesn't know if they're together? If we're using one of them, we should be able to use all of them.
No one is saying you can't use a creator quote, ANY creator quote, so long as it is relevant to the LTD. We're not demanding you cease to use that one so much as we are reminding you that it is out of date, and more recent statements do not line up with the quote you keep throwing out about him "not knowing." Further, its been pointed out multiple times that he never said he doesn't know IF they're together. He said he doesn't know ABOUT them being together. Despite some folks crying "semantics!" above, it actually does make a difference in this case.
And I've heard from Japanese people, and Japanese dictionaries who say that Tachiba does NOT refer to personalities. And you say it does.
You are arguing not just against ME, but against the JAPANESE LANGUAGE ITSELF.
And that's why I said if you had a shred of honesty, you'd admit that the translation here was correct, because the entire time, the sources and the translations were listed. And you denied the translation. Because you're not trying for the truth here. You're trying for your desired conclusion, regardless of the truth.
