Vendel
Chantara wrote: Maybe the fact that Cloud can still see, talk, and touch Aerith has something to do with it,
None of which happens in the OG or in the two years in between that and AC. Nor do we have any evidence it happens after ACC where we are shown and told she goes back to the LS (with that pesky Zack).
So again how is that "leaving it up to the players"? Nothing you or I have described is under player control.
Oh, you mean you want
confirmation that Cloud can still see and communicate with Aerith before you believe it? Funny - I'm wanting
confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa before I believe it.
It is only theoretically
possible that Cloud loves Tifa because we know it's possible to get the HA version, even though it's optional. We also know that it's theoretically possible for Cloud to still be able to see and communicate with Aerith after AC for several reasons:
1)
Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one. ~Nojima, pg. 9, Reunion Files
Are you saying that Sephiroth can no longer exist? A dead man who's been resurrected at least three times to fight battles with Cloud? A dead man who said in
CoL: Black that he will always exist in Cloud's consciousness?
The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet's system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I'm still thinking of you. And I'll show you the proof of that as well. ~Case of Lifestream: Black 1; by Nojima
2) Sephiroth made Cloud a core of his spirit so that he could continue to exist. So did Aerith. That was told to us by Nomura in Distance:
The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview
So Sephiroth continues to exist because he lives on in Cloud. If Sephiroth exists, Aerith exists. Aerith lives on in Cloud, too.
3) We saw Aerith in
Calling after she and Zack went back to the Lifestream, so we know Aerith's not limited to the Lifestream.
4) The presence of Aerith was suggested in Reminiscence during Cloud's phone call with Tifa. That was the only phone call where you could hear Cloud's voice only, which suggests that someone was listening in to his phone call. The most likely person to be listening in is Aerith.
Therefore, Cloud is able to continue seeing and communicating with Aerith. That is just as theoretically possible as it is for Cloud to love Tifa. It was not shown that Cloud loves Tifa in any non-optional scene in FFVII after the HW scene, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC. Therefore, the idea that Cloud loves Tifa is merely your interpretation of the story.
It is my interpretation that Cloud can still see Aerith because she lives on inside of him.
Looks like we're on equal footing.
Chantara wrote: Feelings can change in two years. I can't see how Tifa asking if Cloud loves her is proof that Cloud loves her. If anything, it's proof that she doesn't know whether Cloud loves her - in which case, the HA version didn't happen and the LA version did.
Except again I feel the need to point out it has been put out there that if the feelings are mutual (as they have been stated to be) then you said the LA means they confirm mutual romantic disinterest.
So no matter what scene happened according to you Tifa and Cloud would know each others feelings. So why the sudden shift when I point out that Tifa is worried if Cloud loves her?
Shouldn't she know he doesn't if the LA happened? So why worry about it? Unless the HA one happened then she would have reason to worry about Cloud becoming distant.
In the first place, it's never said that Tifa is
worried about whether Cloud loves her. That's merely your assumption. Maybe she's just curious.
In the second place, your objection is negated by what you said here:
"Shouldn't she know he doesn't if the LA happened?" Yes, but she should also know that he
does if the HA happened.
She should know his feelings regardless of which version happened, and therefore should have no reason to ask regardless of which version happened. The contradiction is as strong for your version as for my version.
Chantara wrote: Actually, it is dripping with ambiguity
No, it isn't. You swap the names with any generic male and female ones (or just show this to someone who doesn't know who these characters are) then this statement would suddenly become very clear now wouldn't it?
I imagine if it said something similar about C/A you wouldn't find it ambiguous at all. Sadly for them nothing like that exist. Whereas C/T have like a bakers dozen.
It'd be helpful to know which quote you're talking about before I answer.
Chantara wrote: No, what you're suggesting is that I interpret it your way on the second play through.
No what I am suggesting is that instead of falling in love with Aerith and creating your own story around her. You should have paid more attention to the actual game the second time around.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
Thing is, there is no one way to interpret the Love Triangle in the game. It's your
opinion that there's only one way to interpret it, but that doesn't make it fact. For all you know, the way I interpret the Love Triangle is the correct way to interpret it, and you're the one inventing stories about Tifa.
Chantara wrote: That's one big difference between us. I say there's more than one way to interpret the game, and you insist there's only one possible way to interpret it.
Except we are not talking about "the game". We are talking about one aspect of it. Or to be more precise, just one aspect of that aspect. Who Cloud loves in the end. And there is only one "interpretation" for that.
We disagree.
And for the record the Ultimanis pretty much wring out any room for interpretation for the vast majority of the game. I just choose to interpret them as knowing what they are talking about.
Oh - is that why Nomura said after the release of AC that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa were involved in a romantic relationship in the two years after FFVII? Is that why Nojima wrote in
CoL:White that Cloud is Aerith's lover/sweetheart? Is that why the DoC Game Manual says that Aerith will be engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life? Is that why Tifa's profile in the 10th AU calls Aerith a "love rival" of Tifa's? Is that why Cloud thinks of Aerith first and second after Sephiroth asks him what he cherishes most? Is that why the Reunion Files says that Cloud is
no longer alone at the end of AC after finding Aerith again?
Chantara wrote: -It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital.
And what point are you making with this exactly? That Cloud doesn't think about his family? Or that he only thinks about them as an afterthought to Aerith? Because I hope that isn't what you are trying to say.
Neither one. I'm giving reasons why I think Cloud still loves Aerith instead of Tifa. There's even more reasons in my last answer.
Chantara wrote: -Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day.
Look I managed to connect the dots. Cloud's feelings are comparable to the other game characters and the viewers.
No, you conveniently made it say what you wanted it to say. What it really says is that Cloud carries his own undying feelings for Aerith even today - and the phraseology suggests that part of Cloud's feeling might be love, since other characters feel love for Aerith.
Chantara wrote: Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world... The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
-Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.
Doesn't look so clear to me.
So I guess you were trying to say Cloud doesn't worry about his family? Sorry Marlene and Denzel. Only Aerith matters. You just have the tough luck of being saddled with Tifa. That woman who although he will be with her for the rest of his life like a partner and he will raise you like a father is neither of those things nor wants to be. Only flowers are on his mind.
Are you trying to avoid replying to what I said, or are you trying to put words in my mouth so that nobody will notice that you're not replying to what I said?
What I gave you were two (MORE) examples of things said by SE which say that 1) Tifa is aware that Cloud still loves Aerith, and 2) Cloud may not be romantically interested in Tifa.
Chantara wrote: At any rate, I was talking about why Tifa's worried about a "real" family, when no one else is. Your answer was in general about "family", not "real family" - which seems to be what Tifa's worried about.
So when Cloud says in the movie he doesn't think he is fit to save his family he needed to add in "real" so we know who he is talking about?
"I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not my real family, who are you Denzel and Marlene not my family of friends who is the rest of Avalanche that is not you Marlene or Denzel. . . no one."
Not the point. The point is that the only person we hear talking about and worrying about a "real family" is Tifa.
Chantara wrote: Do I have to bow and scrape before you, too? Sorry, but I will be saying it again - especially since I didn't meet all of my family members until I was about 10.
Bow and scrape? No, but you could at least be consistent. You can't claim they are not family to go against this Denzel point. Then claim they are to refute a different point. It's horribly dishonest.
Where did I say they were not family? I said that just because Denzel didn't know they were family doesn't mean they're not family.
Chantara wrote: Actually, he is. Barret's the one who came up with the idea of "family":
He probably told them to adopt Denzel also right? Or was he the one that needed to do it since he is supposed to be the father of the 7th heaven family?
I never said that. I said that Barret's the one who came up with the idea of "family". (And he was, according to the translation I have.) However, I don't see how your translation changes my point.
Barret lifted his artificial right arm up that had a machine gun attached to it. He kept walking without looking back. It was the back of a figure who had no other way to live than to fight. I wonder just what kind of life he will find. I prayed that he would be able to stay far away from war. Not just take. I prayed he would be able to prove that he could give, too.
“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.
Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?
“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.
“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”
Even if it's Marlene saying it, why would she call herself part of a family that Barret didn't belong to? Marlene and Barret have been family for years - I doubt that she would suddenly just leave him out of it.
Then Barret says,
"Unite the family's strength and keep at it." Would he tell Marlene to unite the family strength if he wasn't part of that family? If Barret says "family" and he includes Marlene in that family, then he's obviously part of that family, too.
Chantara wrote: Make sure you be a nice child of this family!
And where did you get this translation? Because Barret doesn't say that. Not in the one we have on this site nor the one Q posted.
Actually, the translation I have is the first translation of the revised CoT that appeared on TLS, which was done by Danna.
Chantara wrote: It seems very unlikely to me that Barret would tell Marlene to be a nice child "of this family"
It is unlikely because he didn't say it.
See my response above which answers your question.
Chantara wrote: And you think that matters to Marlene? Denzel talked about his own sins in his own story - he felt guilty for letting that lady die whom he was living with at the time Meteor fell.
I am just curious as to how Marlene fits into this "family only made up of friends" as you claim Tifa said it was. Does it not apply to her? Or does it just apply to Cloud?
Tifa does say it's a family of friends. However, that's
Tifa thinking the family is made up of friends, not Marlene.
Do you mean how does
Tifa see Marlene fitting into the family of friends? I think it's obvious that she would see Marlene as Barret's daughter. Since Barret's her friend and part of the family, his daughter should be part of the family, too.
Chantara wrote: And why is Tifa the only one worried about a "real" family? You gave me a bunch of quotes where Cloud is talking about the family, but Tifa's the only one worrying about a "real" family.
You're right Cloud must not care.
"I guess that only works on 'real' families"
*Cloud nods in agreement*
"You're right Tifa, you three friends I was living with are not my top priority."
I'll respond when you find a real quote from the story to support what you're saying.
Chantara wrote: Sounds to me like she calls them a family of friends:
Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.
Funny how the entire thing is talking about past events. It's almost like it's playing out exactly like I said.
Then what friends do you think she's talking about?
Chantara wrote: It isn't until later that she starts talking about a "real" family.
Later as in "every mention of family after this paragraph".[/QUOTE]And every time she says it, she's wondering
IF they've become a real family. In fact, the first time Tifa wonders that is after Cloud brings Denzel home.
Chantara wrote: With no clarification as to what their relationship is at the time, so it could just as easily be as friends as it could be as lovers.
Un, no. Not "just as easily".
Yes, just as easily.
Chantara wrote: There's nothing in the story to make it definite what their relationship with one another is.
You seem to be living in "possible" and not "probable" or "likely" land. Don't you find that exhausting?
You should know, since you're living there, too.
I mean realizing feelings, living together and raising children is so easy to understand and requires pretty much zero explanation. Whereas "friends" requires vast amounts.
No, it doesn't. Especially when Cloud calls Tifa his "nakama" in Dissidia 012. Which, by the way, means "
FRIEND as close as family".
Chantara wrote: Barret's the first to suggest it, then Tifa calls it a family of friends, then Marlene invites Cloud into the family - yet you think it's Cloud's family?
Let's see. Doesn't matter, you're wrong, doesn't matter and yes.
Then I repeat: Barret's the first to suggest it (actually Marlene, but same difference), then Tifa calls it a family of friends, then Marlene invites Cloud into the family. That clearly means it's not Cloud's idea.
Chantara wrote: I'm talking about how it started because it wasn't Cloud's idea. He didn't "decide to make a family with Tifa". He was invited to be part of it.
No, Cloud decided to be with Tifa first. The family was a package deal. And they both accepted it and even added to it later.
I suggest you re-read CoT, since that's not how it happens at all.
Chantara wrote: And isn't that the room that Tifa means when she tells Cloud to go "drink in your room"? Sounds like my mother telling me to "go to your room" when I was a kid - so it must be his bedroom, too.
When my wife tells me to go drink in my room she means the garage. So it must be his office.[/QUOTE]
Chantara wrote: Pure assumption. If there's a bed there, that's probably where he sleeps.
My brother slept in the living room while work was done on his place. Was that his bedroom?[/QUOTE]If there's a bed in "Cloud's room", then it's most likely his bedroom. We never see a room that's called "Cloud and Tifa's room". When Rude and Reno bring Cloud and Tifa back to the Seventh Heaven, they take them to Denzel and Marlene's room. Why not take them to their bedroom? Probably because they don't have one.
Chantara wrote: That's why there's a quote of Nomura saying it along with a source for it.
Well I hope it's something you haven't shown me yet. Because nothing you have posted says that.[/QUOTE]Sesc posted it here a week ago:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7360&page=61
Sesc found the source for the quote and it comes from here:
http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086
The interview took place in November, 2005, so it was after Advent Children's release date is September, 2005.
Specifically, Nomura says that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC.
Chantara wrote: For all we know, Tifa walked into Cloud's bedroom while he was asleep before asking him that,
Yes Tifa walks into his room to ask him a question she should already know the answer to and then stands there while he goes back to sleep. Great character portrayal there SE. You turned Tifa into Edward.
What makes you think Tifa wants an answer?
Chantara wrote: It says nothing about Cloud and Tifa sleeping in the same bed.
Because it shouldn't have to.
"Cloud who is sleeping right next to me, do you love me"
It does have to if it wants us to know that they're sleeping with one another. So far, the only bed we've seen is the bed in Cloud's room and the beds in Denzel and Marlene's room. If you think Cloud and Tifa are sleeping with one another, then your imagination's overactive since there's absolutely nothing to suggest it.